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Welcome to the Healing Our Politics Podcast!
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Guest:
Rick Doblin is a man who saw a future no one else believed in: to restore and reimagine the role of psychedelics in society as tools for healing. Today, after nearly four decades of joyful persistence, legal battles, and spiritual grit, that dream is a global movement. Rick is the founder and president of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, or MAPS, a nonprofit that’s been at the absolute forefront of psychedelic research since 1986: If you’ve ever had a serious conversation about psychedelic medicine, chances are, you’ve encountered his work — directly or indirectly.
Rick Doblin is a man who saw a future no one else believed in: to restore and reimagine the role of psychedelics in society as tools for healing. Today, after nearly four decades of joyful persistence, legal battles, and spiritual grit, that dream is a global movement. Rick is the founder and president of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, or MAPS, a nonprofit that’s been at the absolute forefront of psychedelic research since 1986: If you’ve ever had a serious conversation about psychedelic medicine, chances are, you’ve encountered his work — directly or indirectly.
Rick holds a Ph.D. in Public Policy from the Harvard Kennedy School, where he wrote his dissertation on the regulation of the medical uses of psychedelics and marijuana and his Master’s thesis on a survey of oncologists about smoked marijuana vs. the oral THC pill in nausea control for cancer patients. His undergraduate thesis at New College of Florida was a 25-year follow-up to the classic Good Friday Experiment, which evaluated the potential of psychedelic drugs to catalyze religious experiences. He also conducted a thirty-four year follow-up study to Timothy Leary’s Concord Prison Experiment. Rick studied with Dr. Stanislav Grof and was among the first to be certified as a Holotropic Breathwork practitioner. His professional goal is to help develop legal contexts for the beneficial uses of psychedelics and marijuana, primarily as prescription medicines but also for personal growth for otherwise healthy people, and eventually to become a legally licensed psychedelic therapist. Rick has been a featured guest for TED Talks, and the Students for Sensible Drug Policy ,SSPD, and just last year was recognized as one of the most influential people in global health, 2024 TIME 100 Health Honoree. He’s part philosopher, part policy strategist, part spiritual truth seeker, and CONTINUES to be one of the most persistent, thoughtful, and — frankly — courageous advocates for psychedelics as tools for healing.
About the Episode:
I first sat down with Rick months ago, but in light of the FDA’s decision against MDA assisted psychotherapy, dropping just before the original episode release, I HAD to check in with Rick again for the whole picture. In this exciting two-parter you get Rick’s perspective PRE and POST the FDA’s decision.
In the first half, we dig into Rick's 40 year journey, including never before told stories about his early life, the founding of MAPS, what it's like to stay true to a vision no one else believed was possible, and Rick’s decades-long chess game with the FDA. We talk about making bipartisan coalitions last, unconventional approaches to management, how to discern grit from stubbornness, and how to reframe fundraising asked to truly connect with lasting mission aligned support, structuring your organization - for profit, non-profit, or something else- how to turn enemies to allies, and how to fight major institutions and win. In the second half, we discuss how MAPS is paving the way for global psychedelic healing, as well as Rick’s personal approaches for staying committed through uncertainty, how to build systems and practices to sustain yourself over time, how to remain warm, open, and connected in the face of mass public criticism, and what it takes to scale a movement from a single believer to a global institution. We touch on MAPS's new push to measure gross national trauma with a goal of net zero trauma by 2070 and how you as a public servant, leader, or active citizen can help us get there. This episode takes us deep inside Rick’s toolkit so that you are resourced to do what others can’t yet imagine.
Key Topics Discussed:
· [00:02:40] Guest/Episode Intro
· [00:04:45] This is a 2-Part Episode!
· [00:08:12] PART ONE
· [00:08:12] Moses was high, Dad!
· [00:13:30] An Exemplary Pathway for Leaders
· [00:14:30] “Then they take you for granted…”
· [00:15:50] “Winning” isn’t forever
· [00:15:57] Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game (*Spoiler Alert*)
· [00:20:45] Predicting Civil War
· [00:22:05] The Success of Preposterous Lies
· [00:25:11] The Beginning of the Mission
· [00:29:27] Core of Darkness Wrapped in Privilege
· [00:34:33] What My Bar Mitzvah Should Have Been
· [00:38:00] Becoming Political via Landline Propaganda
· [00:42:20] Study and Practice of Non Violent Resistance
· [00:42:43] Side Note About Getting Sucked Into Systems (Don’t volunteer yourself)
· [00:44:33] Oasis of Sanity: Exploring Psychedelics
· [00:46:22] From Counter Culture to Culture (“Criminal” to Psychotherapist)
· [00:47:30] 1960s Culture of Silence
· [00:49:57] The Political Exaggeration of Psychedelics
· [00:52:50] Understanding Commonality, Backed by Experience
· [00:55:50 Wanting to Quit?
· [00:58:20] Science Blocked by Politics: Rick’s Shift to Harvard
· [00:59:08] Winning the Lawsuit but Losing the Job
· [01:00:00] 14 Years Into MAPS: the STRUGGLE to begin Research
· [01:01:54] Independent Institutional Review Boards
· [01:02:01] Western IRB, now part of the WCG (WIRB-Copernicus Group)
· [01:02:04] 17 Years In: Approved to BEGIN
· [01:03:37] Training Inner Work, Renewal of Convictions, and the Measure of Happiness
· [01:07:09] Success in Small Victories and Just Showing Up
· [01:11:06] Back to the Story!: Approval Rescinded
· [01:12:10] Politics Blocked Science, Again
· [01:14:07] Finding Copernicus: Approval Finally Granted
· [01:15:34] A Team Rooted in Personal Conviction
· [01:20:40] The First MAPS Volunteers and Staff
· [01:25:10] Telling the Truth on All Sides: Sharing Findings
· [01:32:08] How Leaders Can Support the Larger Mission
· [01:33:03] Smokeable Tasks
· [01:35:18] Building a Bipartisan Movement: Reduce Suffering and See the Human
· [01:38:00] For Profit or Non Profit?
· [01:41:55] SPONSOR: Skyrun Vacation Rentals: Use Code HOP15
· [01:42:50] ELC Foundation Donors Moon Song Fund
· [01:45:50] PART TWO
· [01:46:10] Psycedelic Science 2025 JUNE 16-20
· [01:48:11] Expectations Going Into the FDA Decision
· [01:49:20] Taking Investors and the Repercussions
· [01:50:40] Regretting the Traditional “Quiet Period”
· [01:53:10] Losing Control of Narrative: The Innovator's Constant Challenge to Educate
· [01:59:13] Cold Comfort and Feeling the Sadness
· [02:00:53] Moving Forward: MAPS’ Global Plan
· [02:06:53] Finding Funding by Chance at Burning Man
· [02:09:21] Internal Changes at Lykos
· [02:10:10] When Will We Know?
· [02:10:43] The Larger Vision: Net Zero Trauma
· [02:11:43] Post Traumatic Growth Inventory
· [02:12:05] Context Provides Healing, Not the Pill
· [02:15:30] MAPS’ Cannabis Project for Veteran PTSD
· [02:16:30] MAPS’ Survey Project to Review MDMA Assisted Couples Therapy
· [02:18:04] Rick’s Personal Practice in Couples’ Work
· [02:19:45] Winning Popular Support
· [02:21:00] Preparing, Letting Go, and the Luxury of Time
· [02:24:44] Explore, Don’t Make Decisions
· [02:25:25] PS25 SPEAKERS *An Embarrassment of Riches*
· [02:28:33] Rick’s Overarching Message for PS25: Therapy is Essential
· [02:30:01] Recordings PS25 Will be Available for FREE shortly after the Conference
· [02:31:50] The Connective Tissue
· [02:33:22] The AMENDED Hierarchy of Needs: Self Transcendence
· [02:35:50] Shout out to Bessel van der Kolk
· [02:36:50] Final Question: Follow Your Purpose
· [02:38:27] “The Leader’s Handbook” (https://www.healingourpolitics.com/#newsletter) Newsletter
· [02:39:30] SPONSOR ELC (https://www.electedleaderscollective.com)
· [02:41:50] SPONSOR: Skyrun Vacation Rentals: Use Code HOP15
Key References and Resources Mentioned:
· [00:15:57] Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game (*Spoiler Alert*)
· [00:36:33] E.O. Willson Quoted
· [00:36:45] Albert Einstein Quoted
· [01:02:01] Western IRB, now part of the WCG (WIRB-Copernicus Group)
· [01:14:07] Copernicus IRB
· [01:41:55] SPONSOR: Skyrun Vacation Rentals: Use Code HOP15
· [01:42:50] ELC Foundation Donors Moon Song Fund
· [01:46:10] Psycedelic Science 2025 JUNE 16-20
· [02:25:25] PS25 SPEAKERS *An Embarrassment of Riches*
· [02:35:50] Bessel van der Kolk’s The Body Keeps the Score
· [02:38:27] “The Leader’s Handbook” (https://www.healingourpolitics.com/#newsletter) Newsletter
· [02:39:30] SPONSOR ELC (https://www.electedleaderscollective.com)
· [02:41:50] SPONSOR: Skyrun Vacation Rentals: Use Code HOP15
Where to Find Rick Doblin:
- maps.org
- Register Today for PS25, JUNE 16-20
Where to Find Host Skippy Mesirow:
- Receive Support at the Elected Leaders Collective ElectedLeadersCollective.com
- Follow on Instagram www.instagam.com/skippymesirow
- Book a free Clarity Call https://calendly.com/skippymesirow/elc-clarity-call to see if coaching is right for you
Episode Sponsor:
ELC Foundation Donors Moon Song Fund
Skyrun Vacation Rentals: Use code HOP15 for 15% off
ELC Foundation Donors Moon Song Fund
Skyrun Vacation Rentals: Use code HOP15 for 15% off
Helping You Heal Our Politics
The Elected Leaders Collective (ELC) organization is the leading US-based provider of mental well-being training for public servants, conducted by public servants and the world's best mental health and human optimization professionals. With ELC Training, you will learn to rise above and become the political healer you were meant to be, improving your well-being in the process.
Contact the HOP Team:
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Contact our team at jesse@healingourpolitics.com
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Creators and Guests
Host
Skippy Mesirow
Skippy Mesirow is a prominent leader, certified Master Coach, and founder of the Elected Leaders Collective (ELC) and ELC Foundation. ELC leads the US in mental health and well-being training for public servants, recognized in The Apolitical Foundation's Mere Mortals report, and named as one of 26 worldwide political well-being "Trailblazer Organizations." A transformational leader in political innovation and wellness, Skippy serves on Gov. Polis’s Natural Medicine Advisory. Skippy’s work has been featured in numerous podcasts and publications, as well as main-stage speaking engagements for organizations NLC, YEO, CML, MT2030, Bridging Divides, and Fulcrum, highlighting his significant contributions to mental health, community, and policy reform. Alongside his professional achievements, Skippy lives in Aspen, CO. with his partner Jamie where he enjoys running ultra-marathons, road biking, motorcycling, international travel, culinary arts, Burning Man, and lifelong learning.
Producer
Aaron Calafato
Aaron’s stories are currently heard by millions around the globe on his award-winning Podcast 7 Minute Stories and on YouTube. Aaron is a co-host of Glassdoor's new podcast (The Lonely Office) and serves as a podcast consultant for some of the fastest-growing companies in the world.
Editor
Jesse Link
Jesse is a strategy, research and partnership consultant and podcast enthusiast. A 2x founder, former Goldman Sachs Vice President and advisor to 25+ businesses, Jesse brings a unique and diverse background to HoP, helping to elevate the range, depth and perspective of HoP's conversations and strategy.
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