Imago Gei | Queer Faith. Colorful God.

The journey to becoming LGBTQ affirming in a religious setting or church environment is dependent on more than simple Bible knowledge or good exegesis. LGBTQ affirming is a position people come to based on a theology that takes holistic consideration of what is ethical, good, and just. At a minimum, LGBTQ affirming is to exercise the reflexive practice of asking how a particular theological construct advantages or disadvantages people, especially marginalized people. The experiences for queer, trans, gay, and lesbian members under the religious constructs of the church are the nerve endings that, in a healthy body, signal to the brain vital feedback necessary to keep the body from harm.

What is Imago Gei | Queer Faith. Colorful God.?

Imago Gei is a play on the term Imago Dei, which means made in the Image of God. Imago Gay is a gay podcast production affirming that we are all deserving of dignity. Gay church anyone? Spectrum Magazine, SDA Kinship along with Kendra Arsenault M.Div. have come together to bring you the latest on queer theology and a minority perspective on faith.

Imago Gay is the affirmation of our humanity and shared value in the eyes of God. This dignity and affirmation of human value, which is the birthright of every living and breathing human being is one that is often forgotten when affirming the dignity of LGBTQ lives. LGBTQ youth are four times as likely to commit suicide. LGBTQ youth also make up 40% of the homeless youth in America. Unfortunately, much of their suicidality and housing insecurity is caused by bad theology. Whether it’s parents who kick their children out of the home for coming out, or the depression that comes with believing that being queer means there is no future possibility of love, family and happiness and you’ve once dreamed. Bad theology is one that does not treat the other as Imago Dei, made in the image of God. So as a statement both to ourselves and to others, Imago Gei is a podcast that affirms that we are all made in the image of God, even the gays….

hello friends. Welcome back to a Mago gay where dignity for LGBTQ lives matter. The title of this podcast is a play on the term and Margo day. Meaning in the image of God, Imago gay is a declaration that no matter who you are, how you identify, you have the right to take this journey through. With dignity.

I'm your host, Kendra snow and our sponsors for today are spectrum magazine and SDA kinship international. So make sure you sign up for their newsletters where you will get the latest, unclear news and happenings today. We're going to discuss the journey of how a person becomes LGBTQ affirming, which I know looks different for every person, but I'm hoping through the exploration of my own story, we get a better picture of what that journey can look like.

In 2015, I briefly held at theological position in which I was against women's ordination. This is ironic because I am a woman. So how did I come to a theological position in which I was against myself on this two, maybe three part series. We're going to talk about it. So without any further ado, Let's get into it.

Uh, welcome back to a Mongo gay today. We have spiritual care provider or Roxanne, and we are going to be talking about the journey to affirmation. I have a few things to say to you. Hey, happy birthday. Thank you. What was your favorite part? I love the balloons. I love, I love the Chris rock show as well because it just, the timing of it worked out so well.

Yeah, there wasn't any place I'd rather be in the world than listening to his first show since the incident happened, which is ironic. So that, that, that was like one of the best part. And like yesterday, the branch on the rooftop that I think just had a great birthday. It was great. Yeah. So what I wanted to talk about today is kind of the journey of how we got to be where we are as far as affirming in our theology.

I think people have kind of, and I saw Brenda's office crazy. Or this position as you do bad scholarly work. Right. And I think it's bigger than that. I think coming to an affirming position is bigger than doing bad scholarly work or not having respect for the Bible or being at odds with God or a moral deficit.

And I think I want to talk about the journey because it has more to do with. Kind of this holistic person that's coming to scripture rather than a deficit in exit Jesus or all the things that people have right off this position. As I know people who've taken 10, 12 years to come to an affirming position and that's after reading many, many books and doing the hard work within themselves.

And I think it's a little naive to think. That somebody is going to come to this position just because they heard a single episode of the podcast, right? Yeah. It's taken me a lifetime. Yeah. To come to an affirming theology. So I have a lot of compassion. What I come across more than good counter theology is an emotional reaction.

Right. And the power of the anger or the power of, of the annoyance, or like having to tease out these truths in a way that makes sense to somebody who says, well, I have doubts. You know about how sure you are about this then who wants to go through that? It's hard to not feel shut down my whole, you know, I, I didn't, I didn't go to seminary because I didn't hold a high view of scripture and I'm looking for a loophole and, and add moreover, like I didn't dedicate all those years of my life, which were not brief because I did a whole concentration on top of it.

I didn't dedicate all that time. And money and just like the displacement that, that was because you don't care about the scripture. Right? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so interesting, because I think when I look at Christianity as a phenomenon, as a spiritual discipline, there are so much. Honor around people who enter into the journey of sacrifice.

And I think LGBTQ issues for a lot of people are issues of indulgence, right? Uh, for anybody not struggling with it. Right? Yeah. Because for anybody who's struggling with it, it's like you are finding any crumbs that you can hold onto, like that somebody addresses that topic and it's like, Th this has become a temperance issue.

And what I mean, like it's like, you know, Christianity and depending on what kind of Christianity you subscribe to can be more rigid or less rigid and their kind of lifestyle suggestions, right? Adventism is like, Hey, stay away from meat. Stay away from. Shellfish sugar, you know, some people go to those extremes, right?

Like what does a healthy lifestyle look like? And it's a moderation. It's I, when it comes to sexuality, it's like abstinence before marriage. And even if you are married, there's like abstinence within marriage of like, okay, We only need to do it like twice a month because what no, seriously, there are some writings that we're talking about, especially like with the history of like Kellogg and kind of the Institute that he was running, where he was living.

Giving women clitoral circumcisions, because he was trying to curb people from masturbating, right? Like you have all of these kinds of measures to curb sexual appetite, circumcision, female circumcision. There are restraints around how many times a month a married couple can have sex because you don't want to give out your vitality all of these ways that they were trying to hack human performance in some ways.

So all that, to be sad, you know, LGBTQ has fallen into issues of temperance rather than us addressing the issue of what is a healthy relationship, whether you are LGBTQ or not. Yeah. I wanted to talk today a little bit about maybe our journeys of what I would consider temperance because a lot of times.

You know, like I said, this, this topic is framed as LGBTQ people are just indulgent people with no type of self restraint and a lot of change ministries will kind of propel that narrative. And the leaders of these ministries are like, yeah, when I was gay, I was having sex. 85 times a week and doing crack in the alleys.

And it's like, wow, that's so different. And it's like, wow. Th there's issues with this lifestyle. It is very excessive. But is that what it means to be gay? No. So even to put like a lens on who I am and how I'm coming to this conversation, maybe you can have some things about your lens. I haven't know if this is helpful for anybody.

I just think it's interesting part of my journey. So when I decided that I was going to like really devote myself to God and enter into this journey of like, I'm committed God. And I think we've all been there at some level or another, and we've all had things in our lives that we might be afraid to bring to the table.

Right. Or we're thinking like, God, if you're calling me, that means I'm going to have to give up chocolate for the rest of my life, or I'm going to have to give you. Drinking or something more serious. Maybe we have just stopped dating for a period of time. And we have these things in our mind that we have created and said, I think this is what God would want for me.

And maybe it's just our own conscience telling us that we need this for ourselves. Just some time away from excess. Right. But there is a way that you can do spiritual discipline in an unhealthy way where you can be so radical in your self denial that you start to inflict upon yourself like a mental health crises.

I don't know if you can relate to this at all. So feel free to jump in. And I'm the only crazy one. No, I do relate to that. Well, first of all, I didn't know that that's what I was doing. Right. Let me just be clear about something when it's so out of the norm, in my community, you know, when you really do feel like the freak for thinking any differently, you chalk it up to.

I don't have all the tools to figure it out and let my experience, or my journey has been just kind of running away from it as much as possible and feeling really, really ashamed whenever it catches up to me. So even beyond LGBTQ, and maybe there hasn't been that many other parts of your journey that you've been like really strict with, but if there has, I'm curious about them because.

I think the people who come to these conclusions on being LGBTQ affirming are not, they're not people who have no self control. And what I mean by that. And maybe I'll give you an example. When I first decided I was fresh out of college, I had, you know, done a lot of experimenting and I was like, Hey, well, enough of that, I'm going to go live in the straight and narrow and.

For me, I think there was even a motive of penance of dealing with a lot of internalized shame, probably dealing with a lot of other mental health things. But I said, I'm done listening to like hip hop. I'm done listening to worldly music and I'm just. Cutting this out of my life, I went full vegan, even went raw for a period of time and I just wasn't sustainable.

It was like too expensive and time-consuming, and it was not tasty. I just went all in. I changed my dress. Right. I got rid of so much clothes that I felt was too fashionable, too worldly. Like I need to be playing person. I need to wear. Skirts or shorts below my knees? Uh, no more high heels. Um, I stopped wearing makeup.

I really went for the radical transformation. And even when it came to like diet, I'm like, okay, I'm going to eat only twice a day. Right. In light of today's understanding about health and exercise and metabolism. I wonder why that was ever even a guideline within Adventism, right? Like, okay, you eat breakfast and then you have like an early dinner and then that's it for the day.

Like no eating in between meals. Now we know today. Little portions throughout the day to keep your metabolism running fast. And that actually kind of regulates your blood sugar levels and like all of that stuff that we didn't have access to back in the 18 hundreds, but we're still living by those standards today.

So needless to say, like I went in deep to this radical spiritual transformation, discipline and search, uh, Kind of a deeper revelation of who God was and completely removing a lot of these external stimulants. For example, I thought music was an external stimulant. Right. I wanted my motivation and my joy to come from myself.

Right. So I thought I can't drink coffee anymore. I'm not eating meat. I am not listening to bombastic music. Right. Like I'm thinking I have to be the regulator of my emotions. All of this has to come from myself and I kind of lived that way for quite some time. Do you have any parts of your journey that felt radical in this way?

Not just in like sexuality, but like other parts of your life and discipline. I remember there was a time where I didn't want to watch any movies or television. That wasn't like a documentary or something really uplifting. Like I remember I actually got into like an argument was, cause that was like ruining the vibe, feeling forced into this, something that just felt to me, didn't elevate my spirit.

And yeah, I think at different points of my life, just really thirsty to feel connected with God. This is another thing that I experienced a lot of before, you know, coming to self-love and self-acceptance and living out of that shame cycle is I didn't experience or I don't experience. Now these kinds of fluctuations, drastic fluctuations between feeling close to God and feeling apart from God know, Seeking my relationship with them, God, in a much more sound way.

Right? I think my motive for a lot of things were to be close to God and to be right with God and to treat my body in a way. And I remember you sharing once that you were like, you were reading the Bible, like, I don't know, eight hours a day or something. Yeah. Like that, right? Yeah. I remember feeling like devotional life was synonymous with spiritual.

Right. And that my relationship with God had to look like a very prescriptive kind of, this is what I do in the morning. This is what I eat throughout the day. You know, I'm always in conversation with God. A lot of things weren't practices as much as like even just internal brain programming of like, well, I can't accept any gratitude.

I had this thing where. The glory to God, you know, if I did anything good, that was my opportunity to shine a light on how good God is. Yeah. So I remember doing projects and then people were like, good job. And I was like, that was literally God, that was not, that was literally gone. And not, you. Presence of God.

This is a hologram of Roxanne. She is not present. She did nothing. All of her creative energy comes from the Lord. So thus, she did not do anything. She did not contribute. I don't, I don't mean, I, sorry, that sounds like we're trivializing something actually beautiful practice and it is to acknowledge God.

And I think I do view God as my source, you know, for all the good things that come out of me for, but I don't void myself right. In the same way. It's like, I'm not so. I was always so afraid of taking any kind of gratitude or honor or a credit for anything, for anything. I think any creative person can honestly say that sometimes they're just as.

Surprised at the end product as anybody else who's enjoying that product. Right. And that way you can say, oh, you know, creating things is a co-creative process with God, right. That you're like, oh wow. I didn't expect, or this project took a different turn or this was fun. I wasn't in a. The whole time, right?

Just like this channeling, the energy of God. So, yeah, gratitude. That was a part that was hard to erase yourself for that. I had to erase myself for a lot of things. Oh, this is a big one. So I think. In my teenage years, there was a period where, of course, you know, a lot of things that were feeling unresolved were boiling up and I had no way to express it.

I had no safe community. I was trying to work through all these big monsters inside. Soul and my life without the real help of anybody who would be interested in doing that kindly compassionately. I think anytime I wanted to reach out for help, all I could remember was the consequence of that. Well, I don't want to lose the relationship.

Well, I don't want to be seen in this light. Well, I don't want to, you know, it was just like, The consequences of, of sharing. It were too big. So I'm in my teenage years, I'm trying to make sense of everything that's happened. And one day my mom said something and I snapped at her and she looked at me with tears in her eyes.

And she said something to the effect of like, I don't even know who you are right now. And it broke my heart and all I could think of was, oh honor, your father and your mother. So then I went through a period of like, and by a period, I mean, I radically. Change to my behavior. I committed myself to doing everything that they had asked me to do.

That was going to be my commitment to God that I was going to be a good daughter, because I wanted to feel close to God because I want have redemption in my personal life, because this was a mandate that I wanted to honor. So I think a lot of temperance came in play. That doesn't look like the typical T it wasn't a dieting thing.

It wasn't an exercise thing. It wasn't a sexuality thing. It was an obedient, a caring, a good and kind attitude at, uh, being an available person, a reliable family member. It sounds like a wonderful thing. Do you look back on that with anything like with any type of regret, or do you feel like it robbed you of anything where you feel like, oh, this was a good.

Part of my journey or how do you relate to that period? Well, it wasn't like imposed by my parents. It was driven by a very, like you said, very beautiful motive to honor them and to honor God, but I do look back on it with regret. Not because, because I didn't know what it meant to honor parents and to honor.

I have a very different definition of that, you know, then it meant all of these things that I feel don't matter right now. What matters is how I show up in service of others. And. And how I show up in service of others does matter, but it's not to the exclusion of how I feel or what I'm going through.

And it doesn't mean that there's no room for me to be a human being or to honor myself in the process of honoring others. And so I just didn't know that then. And I didn't have a clear understanding of my own personhood to be. I think I just molded myself into what everybody else needed rather than really.

Yeah. And only kind of finding the balance of being able to be a supportive, loving person, but not to the, that consumed my whole identity and my activities. Uh, So that was kind of a radical submission in some ways. Yeah. And I think whenever someone moves into the spiritual discipline where it's like, I am going to radically reshape my life and the pursuit of something.

Right. Like most of the time we're pursuing connection with God. And so it's like, okay, whether it's moving yourself out of the way, like you were doing or moving all for me, all these external stimulants out of the way. Uh, to better be able to hear him and thinking that the more I could get in tune with my own rhythms, with my own reason, my own emotions, apart from anything else that goes on in life, the pure I'll be able to channel who he is and see him clearly.

Yeah. And I feel like I have to insert this because I love my parents dearly. They were never abusive. Of the kind of disposition I had to honor them. I just didn't know then what that actually looks like when I invite myself into the relationship, you know, going back to connecting the dots of like temperance and my relationship with my parents.

I just remember a conversation also about the very few times homosexuality did come to the forefront and I remember somebody in my family told me. Gay persons are even monogamous. They're not even capable of monogamy that there, no, there's no gay person. That's a loyal person because it's all about if you're gay and you're adulting your, your appetite than there.

Yeah. And that world, there is no monogamy, right? Like, like this caricature. To be LGBTQ means to be licentious and to have no self-restraint and to do as that. Well, yeah, but that wasn't my experience. So when you're characterizing a person and dismissing the conversation, based on the premise that all homosexuals are just seeking this kind of pleasure and there's no real.

Desire for a meaningful relationship. Then I realized, well, you're not talking about me, so you're not really addressing my issue. Right. Which was really, really frustrating. How do I, how do I begin to like tell you you're not painting an accurate picture without coming out in that conversation? Yeah. And claiming my own identity and my own short.

Yeah. Yeah.

All right. We are halfway through our episode. We're going to take a small break and if you'd like, you can take a deep breath.

Okay, let's get back into it. I think your journey of like, looking to be the best daughter ever, you know, and you're going to be connected to God through your obedience, to your parents, right. Um, that was kind of your entrance into community with God. And for me, it's like, Uh, I definitely went down a radical path and I told myself there was a point where I wanted to know God more than anything that I wanted in this whole world.

And I had other options at my fingertips, things that I could pursue, things that I would be good at. And I had community and connections, but I said, I don't want that. I want to know who God is. And I took on this radical journey of change my profession. Change my friend group, um, changed my diet, changed how I dressed changed, what I watched changed, what I listened to, to this kind of real puritanical approach to the world.

And. If you're a woman listening, I'm sure at some level you have submitted to the notions of, you know, a man being ahead of the woman and that being kind of a for ordained. Hierarchy, not just something that God's saying, Hey, this is the best way to protect you in a patriarchal world. But as like, this is the best way to please me wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord.

And so I had taken on those things. I mean, when there was this whole women's ordination in 2015, and that was like a big deal. I was anti women's ordination. Right. I was an anti-war as well for a long time. I was dating a guy in the church who. I was shocked that I was Antigua. And cause I think it's also this radical betrayal of self of like, like, so you're against yourself.

Yes. And I think it shows people who are very, very devoted to God that they are willing to neglect themselves. Right. That I was willing to neglect a lot of the things, a lot of my own dignity and pursuit of like, if this is God's way then so be it. I don't know any. And maybe I do know them loosely associated, like, but the people that I know that are on this side of affirming theology are people who have gone through that journey of radical submission.

Right? Yeah. Even if it meant against their own interests. Absolutely. I mean, some of the people that are the most fierce voices for the SDA community and. Hold in affirming theology, have a history of the same kind of fierceness against it before they come to an affirming view. I think the disclaimer I want to add is that this is we're talking about our own experiences and that people go through different journeys that might land them to an a, or me theology, but.

Obviously they have a different starting point, a different middle point. So yeah, it's one of those things that I have struggled with self compassion, right. During my most radical parts of my journey, I would probably be, be not the person that you want to get theology from. Right. Because I'm in a place where I'm willing to cut off every earthly joy, um, in order to gain.

And acceptance and community with God X. Exactly. Exactly. So that's the real starting point for you? It was the real starting point for me. And it was something that if you were to hear theology for me at that point, it would lack a lot of compassion towards self, towards your natural needs and a lot of denial right.

Of how. The things that I was doing was actually hurting me and probably exacerbating some of my mental health issues at the time. And one of the things that I felt like was hurting me in this period of time is that I felt so disconnected from the world around me. You know, when you go around dress, like you're from the 18 hundreds, like when you make yourself an oddity, And there are some people who are kind and look past those types of, uh, external, uh, eccentricities and they'll reach in and they'll make friends with you anyway.

Right. But it really puts a lot of the burden on other people to look past these oddities in order to make connection. And so what happened was, is I became very isolated from the community around me. I slated from my friends, isolated from my family. I slated from the greater world around me. And, you know, if you've listened to any crime show ever, you know, that like the first step to, you know, being a victim of some type of crime is usually you become.

Right. There's no one checking in on you. You've kind of moved into another world where the help of the outside world is not reaching you. Right. And for me, it was a lot of self-made isolation. But even still, it really opened the door to a lot of potential for me to be taken advantage of in a lot of ways.

And I was well not to mention how it was impossible to see that as a fault. I still remember that the idea of self-compassion the most compassionate thing you could do for yourself. As to honor, and please God, that's what I thought. Yeah. Yeah. I had to sacrifice nice and, and worry about a reward in heaven.

And it wasn't even about the reward. It was about the closeness to God. I had no concept of self-compassion that wasn't completely tied to this prescription of how to be close to God. Right. That was the compassionate thing to do for myself was to allow myself the opportunity to. I have this connection and even this idea of, and for me, this is something that I struggled with.

Like to actively not be beautiful. I really had to work hard at that one. No, but like to tell myself to, like, I remember having this conversation with a friend of mine and, uh, I was telling her like, yeah, I don't wear makeup anymore. And like, I wore really. Like closer to the 18th century. Like all of my skirts were below my knees wearing nothing that would show even a little bit of my chest and making sure all the way up to my neck.

Um, not really showing a lot of my arms either for a period of time, I covered my head. Like I wore kind of like a beanie almost, but it was like a little more, almost like a button. It.

I remember, there's like seven year old kid who is at the church and she's like, why are you always wearing that on your head? And I was like, damn, too beautiful for you to see my hair. And I got to the point where I was like, yeah, you know what? Like, I think I'm taking this too far,

having like, no. Outward checks of like, when I have gone to the extreme, I wore stockings even under my pants so that you could not see my legs. I'm telling you I went, but I know exactly what you're referring to and you're not the first person. I mean, my whole story is different. Right? I didn't have that.

The whole, my always tried to push against the notion of modesty because it did feel so restrictive. I grew up with Catholic family who wore beautiful jewelry, beautiful clothes. And that was always like wondering why we had to dress so plain. Right. What about being Adventists made us look so. So broke.

And my mom would always say, it's like, well, it was about inward adorning. Yes. So I didn't have the same kind of process that you had in that sense, because for me it was, it was just life. It was, I always found myself kind of. Why, why do I have to dress this way? When the wrestle of the world, like the people around me, trust me, I am nowhere near challenging this notion of modesty, right?

Just to clarify, I had gone through a college period where this is not me at all. Like I got makeup on I'm heels. I got short shorts on, like I, and I thought so moving into my submission mode, I really thought that. Everything that I did back then was so terrible. So Jezza Baelish right. Like I had all this judgment about who I was as a woman and even owning a part of my sexuality.

Right. Which was, I looked good. You know, I'm not allowed to feel that way. I wasn't allowed to feel that way that I should. Uh, dress in a way that nobody knows what shape I am underneath my clothes. So this was definitely just a period of my life, but I was dedicated to stay in this period for the rest of my life.

If that's what God had required. And I, like I said that seven year old girl at church who really challenged me, why you always wear that on it? All the adults were too polite. She wasn't, all the adults were nodding on, Hey, you were. And she being herself and like this, this looks strange and I agree. Um, and slowly, even this idea of, like, I remember just curling my eyelashes at one point was like, okay, I'm crossing the threshold, not even wearing mascara, but like I'm crossing a threshold.

I've curled my eyelashes. You know, I'm S I'm starting to put weight towards vanity. How is this going to change my relationship with God? Like little things like this became these huge milestones of. And I slowly transgressing to the point that I'll just no longer hear him. And that was a real fear of mine.

Yeah. I've, I've had periods where like listening to a certain kind of music. These little tests came up right. Where I found myself teetering that line of is this appropriate? Is this not appropriate? Because when you push the line so far back, you know, inching it forward. Again just feels like, well, I was once at this place.

So now in my lesson relationship with God, it really truly made my relationship with God. Feel very fragile, to be honest. Yeah. And, and even these ideas of attraction of being attracted to different people, men and women, every time that came up, I found myself radically distancing myself from them because in my head I had already played out the new.

Right. I'm attracted to you, but I don't want to get to know you because all this is going to lead is down the path of I'm going to have to make a choice between you and my faith. And I don't want to do that. There was a lot of being analytical, a lot of fear that I could possibly lose my salvation because I entertained the possibility of a relationship with someone.

Well, and not only that, like for me, Maybe the fear of losing my salvation wasn't at the forefront, but heterosexuality was at the forefront. Like it was an ultimate goal for me. And a lot of my development revolved around finding a partner like being alone is that period before you find your. Where you are really hyper committed to God.

And then you're hoping for a partner who's also highly committed to God. And then you both spending eight hours a day, reading scripture. Exactly. We don't go out. We just read scripture, but we will find each other. And I am sad. I remember people in my life would say something like, I didn't want to go to this one.

Well, you might meet your husband there. That was the thing that was driving the bus for so much of my life. That my values as a Christian were also tied into my identity as a wife, to somebody I'm a daughter to somebody else, a mother to somebody in the future. I try to fulfill my roles in the best. Way possible so that whenever that one man showed up in my life, I would be able to give him the best version of me.

And I was hoping, hoping that God, wherever this man was, was doing the same with him, that in his singlehood or through his relationship or through his upbringing, he was shaping him to be a God-fearing man who would be responsible with. The headship of our home. Right, right. Oh, this is painful to listen to, you know, as you're talking, I'm thinking about how much this idea of submission really is built around.

Personalities who might need a bigger personality to fill the void. Like a lot of codependency, like God is the biggest personality, right? Like to say, I want to be swallowed up and who he is. Uh, you know, tell me what I should be, create my entire identity around this person means I really don't have that strong of a sense of.

Right. I don't know what I want to be. I don't know what I want to do. I'm probably in this base of development, but still, how could I, how could I wait when everything was about, you know, Do I want to be an evangelist or do I want to fulfill some kind of role in society where no matter where I am at, how do I take opportunities to kind of preach the gospel?

Yeah. So this idea that, that, that time is short, that we need to evangelize people. The greatest thing you could do with your life is to bring other people to know God. I mean, it doesn't leave a lot of room for you to become an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer because it makes you feel like, well, I'm just caught up in worldly affairs.

The point, I should be, uh, about the work of evangelism. And what do you say to all the people that are our engineers or our, what? I want it to be a human resources person or because there are many professionals in our church. Exactly. And, and I didn't know how to connect with those people. Honestly, this is like during my radical phase, because as like, if all of you are all as dedicated and devoted as I, what are you doing?

Working 40 hours a week. Doing these jobs. And then like, you know, I'm sure everybody has heard this in their church with their pastor says, bring one friend to church. And this church would be filled. It'd be twice as much people here as there are now, but it never happens. Right. But I was going to be the person who's going to make it happen.

I was going to evangelize people and bring them into these Hayden's who have lives outside of their ministry. And for me, I really thought. God, I am. I've given you my entire life to make out of it, whatever you want. And if you want to save the world, then here is a vessel who is willing to be the plainest person you have ever met the most non glory, taking the most analytical person, uh, to be driven, not by music or emotions, but to say, I'm here to start.

And just so, so funny. Thank you for sharing that because I'm realizing okay. As a pastor's daughter, I never had that, right. Like, because my parents' life was literally the ministry. You know, all I had was, oh, well, if I dare judge somebody else's profession, well, it didn't occur to me. Did you do that? It didn't, it didn't occur to me to say this person is less dedicated to God.

I just thought they were the sheep. And then there was the. Right. And there were the leaders and then there were the lays and, and everybody was just wherever they were at, in life supposed to do. So I just, my assumption, my premise was this person is an engineer. That doesn't mean they're less Adventists.

So I don't think it was available to me to think they're less dedicated to God. I think for me, it was just a given that there were some people. Are called to ministry and there are others who are not called to, and here's the thing. It wasn't even a judgment of like, these people are less dedicated cause they're morally corrupt.

It was more like I've heard the call. Right. And my thought was like, maybe they just haven't heard it. But when Jesus says to the rich young man, right, the rich young ruler, give up everything and follow me. I'm like, I did that. So what's next. Right? Like I heard the. To give up everything and follow you. So, okay.

Where are we going? Right. And it left me in a place and you guys will hear more about this in my memoir coming out, but it left me in a place where I was vulnerable to get into a relationship with a person who, uh, claimed to have prophetic. Now this, we can really go down this rabbit hole where we're not going to go right now.

That'll be a separate episode, but it's also left me questioning. Now, how did I get to this place of vulnerability of thinking that this person who has claimed to have visions like the prophets in the Bible, or like Ellen white as deceived other people as well? The people that I've had recent conversations with, and we're just.

Both reminiscing on, like, how did we get sucked in to this performance of this person in their vision to be destructive, to a relationship where I thought, okay, God is directly speaking to this person. I was looking for direct guidance, direct revelation. I was looking for my marching orders, right? Like, so I've given up everything God, to follow you.

So where are we going? And I never got. Uh, vision personally, I never got that, that dream that says, this is what I've called you to do. The note hasn't dropped from heaven. A stranger in the street has not stopped me and I've hear these stories and I'm like, where's my stranger in the street. Who's going to stop me and say, God is talking to you right now.

And he's telling, and I was frustrated. I was so frustrated because I wanted so badly for God to just directly speak to me. And I said, God, if you send me to this smallest island out in the middle of nowhere, and there are 10 people that you want me to share the gospel with and that's it. And that's my whole, that's all that my life is going to amount to.

I'm perfectly content with that because you know, that that would be the greatest. Uh, thing that I could do in this life. And that would be my highest joy. My highest joy is just a review. So that being said, here I am left in this void of no marching orders, nowhere to go for racially, trying to purify myself so that I can get the orders in walks in someone who says I have received vision from God.

Has collected a small following of people who also believe that this person has had visions and the way that they weep and cry when they talk about it. Now, my life has purpose. My life has purpose, which is I'm going to help this person share the message. Right? And so now I'm in this place where not only am I taking my marching orders as like.

And service a serving God's chosen leader. I'm also placing myself in radical submission as a woman, right. Um, tend not try to challenge anybody's theological beliefs or bad theology in this sense. And I'm willing to do all of it, but it's, but when I, when I am checking in. Myself and how my beliefs and this radical submission is affecting me and my emotional health it's crumbling.

Right. I just, yeah, there's a lot to unpack. Go ahead. I think what I want to highlight in this moment, and I know more of your story, and I'm really excited that you're sharing parts of it. But I think what I want to highlight here is okay. People who come to an affirming theology are not these radical liberals who have no regard for scripture.

Here is two voices. One who was born in the church to a pastoral family, a wonderful pastor, by the way, but believing that. Spirituality and a good relationship with God is tied to this kind of submissive wifely role and a theology kind of that supports that structure within the family to where we are right now is.

So it didn't happen overnight and it's not like it didn't happen because I read an article. It did not exactly. And I hope that you share more of what your life was like. I I'm really excited to hear more about your story and how it unfolds over time. What, you know, kind of where you were at in 2010 versus 2022.

Not because it's meant to change anybody's perception of. These topics, but perhaps they could change their perception of the humans that hold an affirming theology, right? Like if you understand their story, understand the journey under at least give them the kind of dignity and respect to not assume that they are just flip-floppy pleasure seeking people who have no regard, no moral compass just kind of ended up here.

At least for the two people that are here, it's been a lifetime journey. And the starting point does not look at all like this point, you know, this end point in this moment. And then there's the practical breakdown of it. Right. I think there was this person who was very gung-ho and was able to hold up the construct for a time.

Yeah. And what happened in my story in particular is yes. I ended up getting married to this cult leader and Venice co-leader and, you know, even when it comes to like women's submission, because I'd come from. My own background where I've, I'm a very accomplished woman. I'm very like driven and ambitious that it was something that I accepted, but I didn't feel comfortable like, ah, this is the highest place that I can be.

It was like, if this is what God's ideal is I can't challenge that. Who, who am I to challenge God. Right. Um, and when you have a very strong personality also, that is. Very vocal about these hierarchies. It's hard to challenge the person. And then to also think that you're challenging God, uh, because, and then to not have, I didn't have confidence enough in myself to do the theology, even though I had this moral intuition that felt like this isn't quite right.

But when everything seems to be saying something else, right? Strong personalities and the Bible and pastors and the structure of the church itself. How do you challenge that when you yourself are, this person is like, I don't know, Greek, I don't know Hebrew. I don't any of these things. And that's how we ended up in seminary.

And that is how I ended up in seminary to think, okay. I just don't know enough to be able to come to these conclusions. That's it. But now we have more tools. Right. And now the gap rather than closing seems wider there at well, here's the thing for me, it's like, despite the specialties that somebody might have, what I began to learn in seminary is that my experience under a theology also counts for something.

All right, everyone. I hope this episode has left you on the edge of your seat and that you can't wait to hear more of this journey in this story next week on a Mongo gay. If there's one thing that I want you to take away from today, it is God gave you an intuition. Listen to it, listen to your inner voice.

And what it's telling you am aggregates a podcast where we explore queer questions and a colorful God. In addition to curious conversations, I am so grateful for all of you who have reached out and have been sharing your personal stories, your tragedies and triumphs within the queer community of faith.

If you are enjoying the content, please be sure to rate the podcast on Spotify or apple podcast and share this episode with a friend. If you'd like to reach me, you can write to me at Kendra Arsenault with an X on Instagram or Facebook, you can also follow our sponsor spectrum magazine and SDA kinship, and be sure to sign up for their newsletters where you will get the latest updates on queer news and happenings.

This episode was created and engineered by yours truly and sponsored by spectrum magazine and SDA kinship international.