Silvan (00:00)
Hi everyone, welcome to Long Game, a Heated Rivalry podcast. My name is Sylvan, and of course I'm joined by Declan. And we are continuing on with our Heated Rivalry book review. So this is part twelve of our review, and we're going to be starting with chapter twenty-six.

So, Declan, the casting announcements for season two has just come out. And so I wanted to get your insight, having read the books, about what your thoughts were on the actors that have been cast.

Declan (00:30)
Yeah, I mean the actor for Troy, I think, is bang on the money. I think that one is really good. I can see why people are a little bit annoyed about the Harris one. the actor is incredibly good. he was in the Dungeons and Dragons film. I thought he was brilliant in that. he is quite good, but a lot of people aren't happy with the sort of body type that he represents. I can sort of see it.

I just think in Jacob Tierney we trust and we'll just see what happens. I don't think he would have overlooked that. And maybe there's something else that he's deciding to go into. Either way, we'll we'll just see what happens. But you know, I say with a lot of these casting decisions that do come out before the films or even the scripts are done, that people can get quite like heated about them.

And then when the films and TV shows come out, it turns out the person was the perfect you know, the perfect actor to to take on the role. So we'll see what happens. Let's not make assumptions. and we'll just see how how it goes.

Silvan (01:42)
Can I ask, is the controversy surrounding like the character of Harris in the book and the way he's supposed to look or his body image?

Declan (01:51)
Yeah,

yeah, it's his weight. So basically up until this point, a lot of these characters have been very live, skinny, athletic, six packs, finally. whereas Harris supposedly has just a very average build. Like he doesn't really go to the gym much, he doesn't exercise much, due to a heart condition that he has. and so he doesn't have that sort of athletic six pack you know, build. But a lot of people

were hoping that he would be sort of maybe a bit heavier, maybe plus size, like they were expecting. yeah, someone different to what this actor would be. Like this actor would be, you know, on the slimmer side, definitely. And so a lot of people are making the argument that, you're not representing different body types and you're not doing this, you're not doing that. I suppose it could be a fair criticism. but then again

We don't know what this actor's going to do for the role. we don't know if he is going to, you know, put on weight for the role or anything like that. So but either way, when I was reading the book, I didn't get the idea that Harris was like very, very heavy anyway. I just get the idea that he felt insecure around the athletes because they were obviously very, very fit. And he viewed himself as being quite average.

Silvan (03:13)
I think you're right. I think in Jacob We Trust because he got the casting down or Lewis and Kay did the casting for season one

Declan (03:20)
Mm.

Silvan (03:20)
of Heated Rivalry. And I don't know if they're involved with season two. I'm supposing they might be. And they did get the casting down really well. Like they casted it so so well. And where they did make changes, like Scott is blonde. Scott's not blonde in the TV show. You know, Svetlana is a blonde white person and she's not that in the TVO show either.

Declan (03:39)
Yes. Yeah.

Silvan (03:43)
I suppose I I I can see some of the arguments in that, you know, if Harris is larger, you know, where's the fat representation, right? And I think being a fat person myself, yes, I want that represented on TV. But I also acknowledge that TV is a business.

Declan (04:01)
Yeah. I think people expect like a pure translation of the books. But if you're looking for a pure translation of the books, you're also not getting a Svetlana that is blonde and white. You're also not getting a Harris that is not white as well, because Harris in the book is white. Whereas this actor isn't. So

Silvan (04:26)
I didn't know that.

Declan (04:27)
yeah, like there's you know

Changes have been made. I mean you could argue that adding an R white person into the show when there's already so many, you know, that would have caused an argument, even if they were plus size.

Silvan (04:39)
I think people are heated, people have have invested so much of their energy and their time, and they obviously have opinions. I am curious as to hear what our listeners are thinking and what their thoughts are. I am remaining open minded,

Declan (04:54)
yeah, I I'm of the opinion of wait until we see what happens. And if this this guy could be a perfect Harris, he honestly could be. and none of that will matter. he could end up also putting weight on for the role, he could be doing anything. yeah. By the way, this actor I wouldn't view him as being like very athletic, like built sort of

you know, big muscle guy, like he's not. He's he's he has a pretty average build. And so that would have been the takeaway I got from Harris, but obviously some people viewed him differently and are picking out certain words that would, you know, imply that he might be on the bigger side or he's soft and he's he's this and he's that. Alright, okay.

Silvan (05:40)
Are we allowed to use the fat word? Like people online are not using that. And I don't know whether it's just something that's been sort of censored in our language online. Like I'm a fat person

Declan (05:51)
Yeah.

Silvan (05:51)
and I say fat all the time.

Declan (05:54)
Some people find it triggering because it's been used as an insult for a lot of people, which is understandable. so listen, I have never been able to classify myself as fat, so I am not gonna use it as a derogatory term to refer to anyone, and so it's not my word. It's not sound that I need to use. If someone wants me to use something different, then so be it.

Silvan (06:17)
And so coming back to this chapter, so chapter

Declan (06:20)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (06:21)
twenty-six. This is the chapter in which we get the narrative about them being on the dock and there's a lot that happens on the dock. Infamously they get caught in this chapter.

Declan (06:33)
Yeah.

Silvan (06:33)
And so

th this chapter is meaty. There's a lot that happens. For anyone who's taking bets, we will probably only get through this chapter alone, let's be honest.

Declan (06:43)
Yeah, yeah. Every time we say we're gonna get free more than a chapter, take a shot when we don't.

Silvan (06:50)
Exactly. And so the way the chapter opens is, you know, them at the dock and Ilya says, Is this the dock that you do yoga on? And this is such a throwback to when you know Ilya watches Shane's documentary and and Shane is surprised by this. He's like, Did you watch that thing? And of course in Ilya fashion he says, Yes, was great. I needed help sleeping.

Declan (07:16)
He just can't like let it be. He he has to always add a little bit in just to make it like s I don't actually care all that much, but you know, like I you know, I might care, maybe I don't care, you know, it's up in the air. It's just like it's reflexive in him now just to have to tease a little bit to like take the the like the sweetness out of the moment. It's kinda like, no, we have a bit too much cheddar going on here, it's trying to cut in with with something else.

and yeah, I just think it's so him. It's such a funny thing to say. but you know, he is obsessed with him. I'm surprised Shane doesn't realise just how obsessed Ilya is with him, so yeah.

Silvan (07:57)
He is, you're right. He's not only obsessed, but he's really observant about what Shane's doing and where Shane is. For example, when he splashes water in him or something like that, Shane says, What if my phone was in my pocket? And Ilya says, It wasn't, you left it on the table, on the deck. So Ilya it knows what Shane has been doing this whole entire time.

Declan (08:22)
Yeah, he's watching him, he's observing him, he's he is just sort of enamoured with him. And so he is just following his every move, which is very sweet. And in a different context could be, you know, turned into a dark romance instead. It would have been fun. Stalkerish. Maybe they're not

Silvan (08:38)
We could have an

Declan (08:39)
a fanfic. my god, yeah, we need to talk to to Jen about that to see if there is one. Probably.

Silvan (08:44)
my god, Jen in Jen we trust because Jen would know.

Declan (08:50)
Jen, is there a dark MM romance version of this story where Ilya stalks Shane? Now that I say that, that just sounds like the book.

Silvan (09:00)
Kind of. I can imagine this as have you seen Obsession, the movie?

Declan (09:04)
Not yet, no.

Silvan (09:06)
Imagine if there's like a sequel to Obsession with Shane and Elia, that's what I'm picturing. I really hope someone's written a fanfic for this.

Declan (09:14)
it's out there. A hundred percent. It's definitely out there.

Silvan (09:17)
But there is such beautiful imagery that is used in this chapter. Rachel writes, Shane tasted like cool, fresh water.

Declan (09:29)
Mm.

Silvan (09:29)
And when she wrote this, I got this visceral sense,

Because we've all swam in oceans or lakes or pools, and there's such a visceral reaction that I get to these words. It's sort of it's refreshing, it's cooling, it's encompass in such a beautiful way that she's written it.

Declan (09:49)
Yeah, I really like the prose that she's using in this sort of part of the book. It feels very visual. It gets you an idea of how they're feeling for one another and the way in which they're sort of observing each other too. Like that imagery of like consuming the the the glass of water, this refreshing thing, this thing that washes away all the bad and, you know, is purifying and all these different sort of

different visuals of how Ilya views Shane and what he does to him. And there is just something quite beautiful about the whole way in which she's painted this picture. She seems to be, you know, just sort of enjoying the writing at this point. And just building it up and adding lots of character and personification into what she's showing. So yeah, I do feel like she's really in her stride at this point. I think she is enjoying her writing. She is just

the the the fingertips are are flowing across the keyboard at this point. So yeah, no, I really do like the imagery in this in this scene. I think it it paints them in a really nice light.

Silvan (10:58)
Yeah, and speaking of fingertips flowing across the keyboard, we got somewhat confirmation, I would say, about Unrivaled being finished. Not overtly, but she did post

Declan (11:09)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (11:10)
a some post that on on Instagram, so that's gotten a lot of people excited. But

Declan (11:14)
Mm.

Silvan (11:15)
I suppose my question to you is, has Rachel always written like this, or am I just noticing it now?

Declan (11:23)
No, she wasn't writing like this in the first book, and I'm going to say a lot of Heat It Rivalry itself. she definitely grows as a writer in this book, and I think she definitely improves between Game Changers and Heat It Rivalry, no doubt about it. but there's still like there's like an amateurishness to the way that she writes some of the earlier stuff. But as you're getting

closer to the end and the ideas are flowing and she's found her style, she's found her prose, and she's found her pacing, which is a big thing, in which she is able to describe very accurately and very visually what's going on and include lots of different imagery and sort of literary techniques to help her tell her story in a better way. She's just becoming a way more competent. And it's not a surprise that you're noticing that these chapters are a lot better. Because not only are we getting the catharsis of

Having resolution within the story, but also the writing's just picked up. It's just gotten better. And the dialogue between the characters gotten better. There's a lot more drama between the the sort of back and forth between the two of them. There's so much said that's not said between the lines, and it's all communicated through the way that she's writing now. And so, yeah, definitely. And knowing obviously, I've read the other books in the series, I know that this is the beginning of.

her more established style, which is way more consistent and a lot higher quality. So yeah, I think this is her beginning to really hit her stride in in this book.

Silvan (13:04)
And it's interesting that when you were talking about that, I was recalling our conversation with Scarlett Drake. So if you haven't listened to last week's episode, please go back. Because Declan and I have this amazing conversation with Scarlett Drake, who was the author of Oleander. And we spoke with her about her prose and the imagery that she used. And it really reminded me about how she uses it that's very specific to the narrative that she's using to.

and how to

Declan (13:33)
Mm.

Silvan (13:33)
deliver the story that she is in that book.

Declan (13:37)
Yeah, like the style that you decide to go with is like really, really you know, it's like a signature of you as an author, so it is. And also the way in which you approach a certain genre will also affect your prose and the way that you're using that language to communicate. You could, in theory, have like say Scarlet write this in the style of Oleander and it would be a bit out there because this book is supposed to be a bit more lighthearted, it's supposed to, you know, delve into less

serious themes. not that, you know, this book is completely devoid of interesting themes, but that sort of style of writing wouldn't quite match what's going on here. It wouldn't quite match the atmosphere or the environment. but that's okay because Rachel's style is working for this hockey romance, which is what it is. It's a sports romance and it's supposed to be very easy to read, very accessible and something that packs a good emotional punch.

And I do think that she does a really good job of it in the way in which she speaks and the way that her voice carries across. So yeah, it's just very funny.

Silvan (14:45)
I agree. This is a easy, light sort of style of writing that is meant to invite the reader in and keep the reader sort of engaged.

And this reminds me of him by Serena Bowen and L Kennedy, where where

Declan (15:00)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (15:00)
they've written that prose, it feels a lot more younger. And it feels like they've written how people at that time might have talked as well.

Declan (15:14)
Yeah, and the age

they talk to. I which honestly would be a fair criticism of the way in which Rachel writes Ilya and Shane. Ilya and Shane sound the same from the beginning of the book as they do in the end. They don't sound like teenagers who have been handed millions of pounds or millions of dollars, and have been asked to, you know, become athletes, professional athletes.

And had their whole world upended. Ilya has a bit of an arrogance to him, but that's just more his personality type. But you don't get the sense that there is like a maturity in the way in which they grow up. And they do grow up, they grow up in front of us. Like this happens over years, like near enough a decade. And their pros in the way they speak at the beginning of the book is exactly the same as the way they speak at the end, even though they're now grown men.

And before they were essentially teenagers. So that, you know, could lend better realism to the book. And it might be something that, you know, if Rachel is ever intending to write younger characters who have a bit of a you know, a jump in time or anything like that, that she can keep stuff like that in mind and then, you know, write her younger characters as they speak like younger characters, kids are assholes and they're also kind of rude.

And they're also kind of oblivious. And that's kind of missing for the for the two of these whenever they're younger. I would say the only real example I get of is like Shane's irrational jealousy of Ilya, of like, you know, the whole player of the year or rookie of the year thing, like the I won and you can't be happy for me because blah blah blah. That's quite childish. Like that's childish, and you can see that a younger man might behave like that.

But yeah, I feel like there's an opportunity for the pros to be changed a little bit and to have them mature. I don't mind Shane Ilias saying stupid shit to betray the fact that they're just stupid kids. and I think that's where I think him might have a bit more realism in that sense. if we are comparing those two specifically. I find in that book Srina Bowen and El Kennedy really capture the way in which young men, particularly athletes that have grown up in locker rooms, would speak.

Some of it's not always nice, but it is true to life.

Silvan (17:38)
I see your point. And I think in the TV show, and I'm not sure if they do it in the book, but certainly in the TV show, you know, there are comments about your English is getting better, Ilya. And so there's I feel like a hint towards a progression that at least Ilya's vocabulary is changing, he's learning more, he's using different words, he's able to, you know, go off

Declan (17:56)
Mm.

Silvan (17:57)
and look up the word compatible and then come back and then hold Shane's hand on the beach. but I think for me, I'm not sure that

I see that progression in the in the choice of language. And I think you're right. And it's interesting because after we spoke with Scarlett, I went back and started reading Great Expectations. it's very long, and there are parts that are very dull. But you know, classic writers like Charles Dickens aren't writing characters that different either. So I don't know.

Declan (18:28)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (18:29)
How much of a fair criticism it is because on one hand you've got literary greats like Charles Dickens, Jane Austen, are they writing their characters the way they speak differently? I'd have to go back and check. I wonder if our viewers might have a bit of an idea on that.

Declan (18:49)
Yeah, it would be interesting because obviously they're writing at a time period that's completely different to ours and how people interact would be completely different to how we would. like even the way the children and young people would behave back then would have been very different, depending on obviously their social economic background. They would speak very differently to how our young people would speak. And so it's actually interesting. Like, is Charles Dickens and

you know, all these other classic literary writers, are they like accurately portraying how these people would have spoken and at the age that they were at? 'cause yeah, if not, then my god, we're we're holding up an unrealistic expectation to others about how they portray their characters based on their youth. So

Silvan (19:35)
Right.

Declan (19:35)
yeah, this was an interesting tangent anyway.

Silvan (19:39)
Yeah, I mean we're g and we're never going to know, really. Like unless someone has a time travelling tank, like it's just never gonna happen.

Declan (19:42)
No. No.

I mean, unless you're like a historian who focuses on like historical fiction. if you are, by the way, then let us know. Is would have they been portraying these characters in a sort of accurate way that they would have spoken, or are they just like begging it up and sort of creating their own style in the way that Shakespeare did? Because no one in Shakespeare just actually spoke like that. like he created that sort of form of communication himself.

Silvan (20:09)
I agree, but you know, not even with just with Shakespeare, but with Austin and even Charles Dickens to a certain extent, there's a poeticness about I don't even know if that's a real word, but there's a way

Declan (20:20)
Yeah.

Silvan (20:22)
that they convey the language and they speak that feels beautifully written. It feels poetic. It feels very different to how we speak nowadays. And in some ways I kind of wish we spoke, you know, like we did back then. I, from reading

Great expectations, have used countenance and dropped it into conversations twice this week.

Declan (20:47)
dropping the vocab.

Silvan (20:47)
It's made me

it's made me smarter.

Declan (20:51)
There you go. Maybe we all need to be reading a bit more classic literature. I have the Count of Monte Cristo lined up. I have sworn that I would read this in the summer before September and I am very quickly running out of time to finish that book or to even start that book. I was thinking of doing like maybe a live on my TikTok where it's just me sat from like six o'clock in the morning until like whatever time I happen to finish it and just sit and read the whole fucking thing.

But we'll see if I have the

cage.

Silvan (21:24)
I would sit and listen to you read The Count of Monte Cristo.

Declan (21:29)
You say that, No

Silvan (21:35)
I think we need a lot of our our our listeners to chime in on this. Would you listen to Technology to you?

Declan (21:43)
so I would like read it out? That's

Silvan (21:45)
Yeah.

Declan (21:45)
interesting. Am I allowed to do that? Would I be allowed to do that? Someone let me know.

Silvan (21:50)
As long as you're not making money off it, I don't know. Yeah, we need a lawyer on

Declan (21:53)
Yeah.

Silvan (21:54)
this.

I'm sh because there are people who do that. I've seen people on TikTok Live that are doing that. And it's actually really soothing.

Declan (22:06)
So you're do I need to dip into ASMR as well. Is that does a Derry accent really like lend itself to ASMR, do you think?

Silvan (22:14)
Do you know what? We have had so many comments about our accents, specifically yours, and how soothing it is and how nice it is to hear. And I think especially a lot of our American audiences really like your accent. So I would take

Declan (22:28)
Mm. Yeah.

Silvan (22:30)
that as a win.

Declan (22:31)
Okay, I'll take that. May as well.

Silvan (22:34)
And so coming back to the chapter, because we do go off on tangents, there is a sense here that Ilya likes when Shane lets go.

Rachel writes, Ilya loved these rare moments that Shane was able to get out of his head and let go. He loved that he could make Shane do that.

So there's an appreciation here of Shane switching off or getting out of his head, but also Ilya being the one to do that. Like he has this key to unlock Shane.

Declan (23:05)
Yeah, and it's a special role that no one else can really play for Shane in his life. It gives Ilya a purpose, it gives him meaning within the relationship. And it also I suppose in a sense proves to him that, you know, Shane is getting something out of this and there is a reason why Shane may want to be with him. if he is able to be his true authentic self and to stop thinking and to switch off as he puts it, only around Ilya, then that is a really wonderful thing to be able to do for someone.

especially for someone like Shane who's so high strung and like riddled with anxieties, it is like so beneficial to be able to have that safe space and that space to just unload and to just let it all go for a moment. and I think that's a big appeal of Ilya for Shane is that Ilya embraces freedom like really strongly. He cannot be accused of not living his life to the fullest.

He

does not hold himself back from you know the pleasurable things in life. He parties, he has sex, he does as he wishes there, he buys these fancy cars, he he doesn't mind spending money and just enjoying his life and to pursue the freedom that his life affords him. whereas with Shane, I find that Shane has all of these great things, but he doesn't really enjoy them. Like he

Obviously it has the cabin and the the cottage. But that's like just a space. Like Shane, in terms of his diet and what he does with his free time and like you'd be hard pressed to find Shane tell you about a hobby he has outside of hockey. which is such a such an odd thing that he has nothing outside of hockey and it's this his this is his one obsession. whereas Ilya obviously

enjoys many different aspects of his life. and so allowing Shane that space and to give him the energy that Ilya brings, this freedom, reckless, chaotic sort of thing, but in a in a controlled way and in a nice way. is probably very soothing for Shane in a sense. And it gives him you know, another route that he can go down to explore himself.

Silvan (25:27)
I can attest as a type A person, I would love this. I would love if someone were able to come in and make me switch off because it's it is such a hard thing to do. And I imagine

Declan (25:39)
Yeah.

Silvan (25:39)
for Shane, you know, on top of everything else, the neurodivergence as well, you know, it it must be hard for him to be able to do. So much so that Shane talks about, you know, they're outside in the water, I think, at this point, you know, and they're really making it out and they're gonna go for it.

And Shane says, like, I want you here outside like this. And there's almost this swing in the pendulum where Shane is like, cover the blinds, switch off the lights, to let's make out and let's essentially fuck on the dock. And it's like

Declan (26:16)
Yeah.

Silvan (26:16)
there's this I wonder if and I was thinking about this when I was reading this chapter, I wonder if Shane has a voyeur sort of fantasy.

Like an outdoors fantasy, like being watched or being outside or

Declan (26:31)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (26:32)
being a bit more risky. I don't know what your thoughts were on that.

Declan (26:36)
Yeah. I agree. I do think he has an element of that. I think yeah. Yeah. I I think if he knows that the risk isn't really there. But like the idea of still being in an open space, like the chance is just about there. But not so much that it's so risky that's distracting for him. But no, he definitely does have like a voyeurism thing, a hundred percent. I think the whole Las Vegas thing was a big played into that.

I know that there are certain scenes from the long game that definitely play into that idea. so yeah, I do think he is he enjoys a little bit of voyeurism, so he does, receiving it rather than giving it out, I suppose. But yeah, I just love that Ilya clocks in on that.

Silvan (27:21)
He does because Ilya said, his lips brushing Shane's ear, totally alone, and I'll fuck you there, out in the open where no one will see. And Shane says, fuck, fuck, Ilya. So it is there rather. And as much as Rachel writes these really enticing scenes, again she swings us back to the sweetness of it all, where

If she writes, Is it okay if I tell you I love you again? Ilya asked. His crooked smile was adorably shy.

Declan (27:58)
it is so sweet. And like these are the moments where it's like you know, you're kicking your feet. but this is what you're building up towards. Like this gives that interaction so much more meaning. This is what I mean whenever I say like when you're having your spice scenes, you know, have something behind it, have a purpose, have it be there for a reason. Do not just keep throwing them at the audience just for the fun of it.

And that's a beautiful moment to show the sweetness between the two of them and where Ilya is sort of sitting with this relationship at this point. Like he is like it's almost too good to believe. It's like, Are you okay? Like

Silvan (28:37)
Mm.

Declan (28:38)
confirmation. It's like, are you okay if I tell you I love you? Because right now in this moment, like I really feel like I need to say it. And because he's so swept up in the emotion and in the the intensity of it and the sensuality of it. And yeah, it's just very, very sweet, very sweet moment.

And I really do like that these characters have gotten to this point now where they can be so open and affectionate with each other and can really express their love in a way that, you know, like I say, I could see audience kicking their feet.

Silvan (29:07)
I like that you say that it's building up to something because it is. Within the

Declan (29:11)
Mm.

Silvan (29:12)
p the next page, for example. And when I read this, I sort of read it very dramatically. I don't know why, but maybe it was just the way the mood I was in when I read it. Rachel writes, they both heard a noise. They both whipped their heads around. They both saw Shane's dad standing inside the house, staring, frozen, at where they had wrapped up in each other on the deck.

Declan (29:36)
Pum pam pa

Silvan (29:38)
This is what we're building up to, getting caught.

Declan (29:40)
Yeah.

Getting caught and they had to get caught. There's no way in hell that Shane would have been able to maintain this relationship if he tried to keep this from his parents. Absolutely no chance in hell, he just would die of a heart attack first. The anxiety would be awful for him. He would have none of the support that he does get in the following book. Yeah, it just would have been a complete disaster. This really needed to happen for them.

Obviously Shane in that moment does not probably agree with that. but honestly, this is kind of a bit of a criticism of them as a couple in general. And I actually discussed this with Jen whenever I was discussing Tough Guy with her. when it comes to Shane and Elena, things happen that pushes them together.

They don't typically take the steps themselves. They are forced into a situation in which they have to address the problem. Rather than them coming to an internal decision to go, no, one of us or both of us are going to come to the decision to discuss this or talk about this or address this. But instead, things happen to them. They're they're inactive protagonists. They're passive and tag or they're passive protagonists. So they are they are not proactive. So

That

I do find a little bit of a criticism. Would Shane and Ilya have sorted this stuff out without David having caught them, I don't think they would have originally come out to Shane's parents had this not happened. I think it would have lasted way longer. I think it would have caused a rift in their relationship. I think it would have gotten real serious. But that's not what happens. But it's just an observation for me personally. It's just what I personally believe. I believe they are quite passive protagonists.

And that things happen to push them together. But I suppose it lends itself to like the idea of like soulmates and things like that. But for me personally, I think to be a bit more proactive about this stuff.

Silvan (31:47)
As you were talking, I was sort of agreeing with you. I I can see them being a bit more sort of passive in propelling their relationship forward. And I agree,

Declan (31:55)
Yeah.

Silvan (31:56)
I don't know if had they not been caught by David, would they have come out to Shane's parents at least? And you're right, I'm not sure that it would have happened anytime soon. I think eventually. I think you know what? I think they might have gotten caught by paparazzi or something, or

Declan (32:14)
No.

Silvan (32:15)
Like a fan

taking a photo of them on their phone, and that's probably would have propelled them to come out to Shane's parents at least.

Declan (32:24)
Yeah, yeah. I feel like Shane's parents would have found out at the same time the rest of the world found out by accident. which is kinda sad. I think it's sad.

Silvan (32:36)
It is

Declan (32:37)
maybe we're not giving enough credit to Shane. Maybe he he would have eventually approached this with his parents. 'Cause at at the same time, there's two things going on here. Not only is he confessing up to the relationship with Ilia, he also needs to confess up to the idea that he's gay. Which is something that he's not.

Done. And this is kinda like I had the choice and I was able to make the choice and proactively decide how I wanted to come out. To have that robbed of you just even by accident would be shitting myself. I would have fucking freaked out. I would have been like, I'm getting kicked out. This is terrible. I'm gonna be homeless. I'm gonna be an orphan.

Everyone's

gonna hate me, which is completely ridiculous if anyone actually knows my family, my parents. my mum clicks like day men, like their prize possessions. but yeah, I just I couldn't imagine being robbed of that and not being able to do it in the way that you wanted to, in a way that you had control over. And for someone that is so obsessed with control, and by the way, this is a moment when Shane is completely let go of control.

And what happens?

It goes to shit. Yeah.

Silvan (33:56)
His internal world crumbles.

I can see Shane coming out to his parents eventually, but not telling them about Ilya.

And you talk about Shane you know, internal world combusting. He has this panic attack.

But the way the book is written, it's a lot lighter. The scene is a lot lighter. So Rachel writes Shane turned around, ready to glare at him, but when he saw Ilya's face, he started laughing too. Jesus Christ, he said, so much for easing them into it. Ilya laughed harder. Maybe they did not notice. Rachel writes, they both cracked up. It was pure nerves, but Shane laughed until his eyes watered.

Declan (34:41)
Mm.

Silvan (34:41)
This is so much lighter than the TV show. In the TV show

Declan (34:45)
Yeah.

Silvan (34:46)
we get Shane having a literal panic attack. I think like his head is buried in the sofa, and then he

Declan (34:52)
Yeah.

Silvan (34:52)
sort of kneels in front of Ilya, which I want to talk about that, but then eventually

Declan (34:57)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (34:58)
like he's sort of enveloped by Ilya's arms.

Declan (35:02)
Yeah.

Silvan (35:03)
What was your take on this shift in the book?

Declan (35:08)
So whenever I first read this, obviously I just talked about how Shane had been in a moment where he had given up control. and Ilya being his key to be able to do that, he could have very easily blamed Ilya. Very easily. This is your fault, you're the one that got me to open up, and now look what's happened. I exposed myself and now this is f now I'm fucked and this is f which was actually sort of Shane's reaction to the TV show was a wee bit like that.

he didn't direct so much of it at Ilya, just frustration at the general idea that he gave up control and now he's he's it's caused consequence. so when I first read this, I was terrified that this was gonna be a third act breakup and that he was gonna go, you need to leave. And he says that he was gonna say something in the heat of the moment and Ilya was gonna be devastated and he was gonna leave and then I just like shat myself. I was like, I can't, I can't, I can't do that, I can't.

have this these two separate and do this fucking dance. I don't want to I don't want to read that. And thankfully that's not what happens. They bust out laughing instead, which is sort of like a a subversion of how you thought Shane was gonna react. Because it's kinda out of character if I'm being fair.

Silvan (36:25)
Very much so.

Declan (36:27)
Yeah.

I can see why Jacob Tierney changed that.

Silvan (36:34)
and see why and how it works better in the T V show.

Declan (36:39)
Yeah. Mm. Yeah. It lends far more emotional weight to the situation. It keeps the tension really, really high. And it means that when you're going in, like you don't know what to expect. You're kinda like as afraid of what's gonna be said as Shane is. whereas in the book, the tension's broken. like immediately, which I think is, you know, a misstep.

I think it was a good opportunity to do what Jacob Tierney did, which was allowed attention to hold and to allow it to build up and to have Shane react in a way which Shane would react. I don't think Shane would laugh at this. No, he wouldn't. He wouldn't laugh at this.

Silvan (37:26)
Hmm. And I think one thing that we don't get that we do get in the TV show is this line or this delivery by Ilya about you are so brave. And I

Declan (37:39)
Mm.

Silvan (37:39)
think that builds on what you were talking about. It builds on the seriousness of it. It builds on the tension that's been created in the TV show. And that line is just so important for Shane.

Declan (37:50)
Mm.

Silvan (37:50)
It's

important that Ilya tells him that he is brave. It's validation, but it also helps propel him to do the next thing, which is then to go to his parents' house. And we do not get that in the

Declan (38:04)
No, it's mmm Yeah. It's I think this is a pacing thing, and I think this is just another example of this being an earlier book. sometimes you just need to let the tension build and sit. We have just spent like most of this chapter playing around in the pool, it's all sweet, it's very light, it's very airy. and then like

You know, like the record scratch, the father catches them. The tension should be building and building and building and building now until the next chapter to keep us going. But she breaks it by having them laugh. And I'm like, That's too early. It's too early to be doing that. And also it's out of character. So it is. it's out of character for Shane to do that. she says it's out of nervousness.

Shane expresses nervousness not by laughing, Shane expresses nervousness by having freakouts. That's how we've known him to behave. and so the fact that he doesn't

Silvan (39:15)
Having said that, and

Declan (39:16)
Yes.

Silvan (39:17)
I hear what you're saying, from the TV show, yes, you get the impression that I mean they never really say it outward, but you get the impression that Shane is neurodivergent. And I know Rachel has then said it after the TV show, at least from the interviews that I've seen.

Declan (39:34)
Yeah.

Silvan (39:35)
Prior to that, if I had just read the book, I would not have gotten the impression that Shane was neurodivergent from the book alone.

And so I wonder whether they've added this layer or this layer was already there and they've sort of it's emerged more so when the TV show was being developed, and whether that plays a factor into this.

Declan (40:00)
Yeah.

So in this one in particular, yeah, it's not obvious. It's definitely not obvious. And so I can s understand the criticism that

Silvan (40:13)
Yeah, and I think you're right. I think there is sort of things that you're supposed to insinuate, but it's not very clear in the book. However, what is clear in the book is that Rachel writes His parents stood from where they had both been sitting on the couch. It was clear that his dad had told his mum what he'd seen. Now that's clear as day in the book. I feel like in the TV show, not so clear. You know that

David's come back to the house, but it's not very clear whether he's told Yuna because Yuna's response is like, well what happened? What were

Declan (40:50)
Yeah.

Silvan (40:51)
your what was your impression in the TV show? Did you get an idea that Yuna knew by the time Shane caught up?

Declan (40:59)
Not in a TV show, no. I get the idea that David was like shocked to the point where he was like processing it himself. but there's something about the book dynamic though that is so like I find much more truer of parents, of like they are like two little schemers who like constantly tell each other everything and like are just two gossips about you and your life.

So I could a hundred percent more appreciate the idea that David would be like, my god, my god, my God You know, when you hear what what I just seen. I think there's a funnier dynamic in that. And it's yeah, I can see parents behaving more like that than David going and like sitting in silence rather than being the gossip. 'Cause it feels more like they have a more light hearted dynamic in the book, I think.

Silvan (41:53)
Yeah.

Declan (41:55)
And a bit more of like a an eco stake in chains life, I feel.

Silvan (42:00)
Completely. And these two parents in the book are not that developed, to be honest. They're very much they're not they're side characters, but they're barely side characters. We don't know what David is like, really. We don't know what Yuna is like. Yuna is not involved in Shane's life the way she is in the TV show, for example. I mean, heck, even the reason David goes over to Shane's cottage is to get dishwasher tablets in the book.

Declan (42:28)
Yeah.

Silvan (42:29)
Like

Come on. That is

Declan (42:32)
Yeah

Silvan (42:33)
one hilarious but also very a parental thing to do. Like, I don't have any dishwasher tablets.

Declan (42:38)
Yeah, I've been on your house. By the way, you need to get this and that and that and that and why don't you have the

Silvan (42:43)
But I felt using a dishwasher tablet was so much more realistic than I didn't know in my charger was I forgot my charger and the T V show. You would have a spare charger somewhere. Yuna would have had three charges, let's be honest.

Declan (42:57)
Yuna would have chargers for her chargers. She would have phones for phone. She would have a backup phone and a backup for her backup phone. This woman doesn't fuck about. This is very serious. yeah. Just keep the dishwasher tablet thing in. I think that's funnier.

Silvan (43:15)
Quite like that. It made me laugh. And

Declan (43:16)
Yeah.

Silvan (43:17)
you know, and we get this sort of parents, sort of what I really appreciated here was you got the parental point of view for Ilya. So here Rachel

Declan (43:28)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (43:29)
writes, his parents didn't say anything. They were both looking at Ilya like he was a mountain lion that was about to attack. Now, when I read that, it it jarred me a little. I was like

This is not the Ilya I think of. This is not the sweet, good natured Ilya that now has been introduced halfway through the book and we especially in this chapter where he's so loving and observant with Shane, and it's interesting to see how Ilya's parents still hold this view of their rivals, they hate each other, like he's a lion about to attack.

Declan (44:09)
Yeah. And it's interesting because at a certain moment in time we forget exactly how Ilya is perceived by other people that are not Shane. and he is this very brash, intimidating, foun mouthed, flirtatious, sort of teasing player and probably very intimidating for a lot of people. Like Ilya's a big guy in this and

He has been known to have a very aggressive rivalry with Shane for many years. And so in the parents' mind, this is like Shane's enemy. This is like the man who torments him and torments their son and you know makes his life so difficult and he is the he's the enemy. and so to have him suddenly standing in your kitchen with no explanation as to why he's there.

You can sort of you're you're slapped back into the reality of wow, people actually kinda view Illy like this. This is the mask that he has now. and what we see is so different from what the rest of the world get to see.

Silvan (45:21)
And you're right, because Ilya in the book is supposed to be a lot taller than he appears on the TV show. Obviously, Connor's story is not as tall. And so I think I can't remember how tall he's supposed to be in the in the book. I want to say like 6'2, 6'4, something like that.

Declan (45:35)
Yeah.

Silvan (45:36)
But you get this imagery from a lion to then from me then viewing him as a little pussycat, because Shane says, and he's been visiting, he's where

and Ilya says lovers. Now I know you do not like this word. I fucking love this word. I think it is gold that Ilya says lovers. I do not get the ick with this. I think you know what? Damn right, they are lovers. Because they can't call each other boyfriends yet. They've said I love you, but they are lovers.

Declan (46:14)
Yeah.

It's just funny. because it's like it's something you would read in like classic literature. And you can tell that only someone like whose second language this is would use that word specifically because it is technically correct, but contextually it's a bit like people would view it like a bit of an old way of saying things or it's less sort of modern, it's

It's something you would read more in like a you know, like a like a classics novel, like it would be lovers, they were lovers in the dark, they were they were this and they were that, like very poetic language. And I like that, you know, he does go at it with like a poetic word, because it reminds you as well that, you know, this is outside of Ilias culture, it's outside of his language, it's outside of his his you know, his usual experience.

And I imagine this is the first time he's ever tried to name a relationship like this before because he's never had it with anybody else. So yeah, I think it's a funny, a funny thing. And it does remind me so much of you know, it being his second language. It just immediately brought me back. I'm like, Yeah, that is some that if this was somebody's second language, they would probably say that word, even though an English speaker probably wouldn't. I just thought it was such a funny detail.

Silvan (47:40)
I hear you, and again I think I made this reference last time we spoke about this for the TV show, but I'm going to compare Ilya Rosanov to Carrie Bradshaw. Both fictional characters, But Carrie Bradshaw from Sex in the City introduces her Russian lover to her friends and says, He is my lover. And I thought I loved it. Like who knew Ilya and Carrie Bradshaw would be synonymous with.

Declan (48:10)
But would you would would she have named Beg her lover?

Or is it just because he's European? Is it because

Silvan (48:15)
I mean big was problematic, good lord, I mean

Declan (48:19)
he's is it because he's European? Instead of like his pump boyfriend. Yeah.

Silvan (48:24)
They're both Russian. the

the person she introduced, I can't remember his character's name, God someone help me here. But he's Russian too. Maybe it's a Russian thing. Sh but she says lover, not him.

Declan (48:38)
Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Your obsession with sex in the study is fascinating.

Silvan (48:43)
think your sisters needed to force you to watch this show. It was very of the time, it was very nineties, early two thousands. Everyone was obsessed with it. I think I'm just a little bit older.

Declan (48:56)
Mm, qué pi, qué pi.

Silvan (48:59)
And so one thing that was interesting here is in the book, all four of them are sat on the couch or something like that, the sofa. Whereas in the TV show, you've got all of them sat around a table. Now, I understand why that works for the TV show, because in terms of blocking and camera angles,

it's

Declan (49:19)
Yeah.

Silvan (49:19)
a lot easier to get close-ups and wide shots.

But I think it's so realistic that they would just sit on the sofa and discuss this. It also adds a little bit of informality to the conversation, rather in it rather than it being like this sit-down meeting kind of vibe. But

Declan (49:37)
Yeah.

Silvan (49:38)
one thing that there was kept consistent was when did you get together? And so Shane says, since our rookie year. Ilya says, no, that's not right, was before that.

What was your sort of impression or what were your thoughts around how they both have very different timelines about when they started seeing each other?

Declan (50:03)
that it shows that Ilia was in love first.

I think I think I think Ilya was like love at first sight. So he was. And then Shane did fall in love with him as well. but only whenever Ilya began to pursue. I think then whenever he's seen behind the sort of visage behind the mask, he fell in love with that man instead. whereas Shane wears a sort of sleeve. Shane is who he is and he doesn't wear a mask in a sense. at least not in the same way that Ilya would.

And so Shane needs to see underneath first to the thing. I would say he was definitely attracted to him, but I think Ilya's talking about being in love, falling in love, love at first sight before the rookie season. That's why I think it makes sense.

Silvan (50:57)
I mean they both deny it later on, like, you've been in love this whole time and Shane says no, Elya says God no, but I think you're right, I think where that attraction started was I think first for Elya.

Declan (51:10)
Yeah, I would say so. They are saying that. I don't believe them. I

Silvan (51:16)
I don't either.

Declan (51:16)
think it was love at first sight. I really do, I think. I don't know, is that maybe just a romantic of me? But no, I think so.

Silvan (51:25)
I like that there is a romantic in you. I don't necessarily believe in love in first sight. there is maybe I'm a little more cynical than that. I'm like there was lost at first sight, definitely.

Declan (51:38)
yeah, but

like that's common. Like that's that can happen to anybody.

Silvan (51:45)
And one thing that was different here was the line, weren't there any nice men in Montreal, Shane? Now in the book,

Declan (51:52)
Yeah.

Silvan (51:53)
this is said by Yuna, but in the TV show it's David who says this. What was your impression about Yuna saying this in the book versus David in the TV show?

Declan (52:07)
Hmm, I think the purpose of it was that in the TV show, that's the furthest thing from Yuna's mind. she's processing the idea that her son could not come out to her. And I think she remains a lot quieter in the TV show, you get the idea. She feels like she is sort of withdrawn within herself and she is asking occasional questions, but ultimately she's thinking of something completely different. This Yuna is a bit more tongue-in-cheek, she's a bit more kinda relaxed, she is

funnier and less serious. and so it kinda makes sense that she would say something like that, like, you know, you had a lot of options that you really have to choose this guy. And I also think it's because of the pacing, because Yuna hasn't had a chance to discuss Shane and sexuality and had their big moment together yet. For her to be coming in and making jokes like that.

Silvan (52:59)
Yeah.

Declan (53:00)
because it's not really important to her character in the book.

Whereas in the TV show it's very important because she's a different character altogether.

Silvan (53:09)
Yeah, but I still think it's a weird line to say both in the TV show and the book with Ilya sitting right there. It's just a bit like it's it's just awkward when they say it in both these situations. I'm like, he's sitting right there, like seriously?

Declan (53:24)
Yeah.

Like you could have like waited until you left the room or something, like a good, honest, decent person.

Silvan (53:31)
It feels I mean,

if it was if I was Ilya sitting there, it would feel disrespectful. Would you mean like one, I'm not a nice boy. Okay, maybe Ilya isn't. But also, did you have to say that right there in front? Like it just it we're gonna get a lot of comments on this, and I'm anticipating that, and I welcome it. You're welcome to tell me your point of view. I would love to be educated on this, but for me it just seems a bit odd to say.

Declan (53:58)
It was rude in truth. Like obviously I'm looking at it from the point that this is a book and no one in real life would say that. But if we actually do take it at face value and the idea of like like I like was part of a secret relationship and it was found out and the parents knew of me and then I was sat there and one of them says, Yeah, was there like no no one else to have to be him? And I'm like

Fuck you. I I can up

Silvan (54:29)
Yeah, it's like your mum saying.

Declan (54:31)
and leave if you want. Like I'll walk right out of here if it if it makes you fucking feel better. I can't be mad. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Good point, Sullivan. Good point.

Silvan (54:35)
Right. Like it's it's like when you when you

first introduce your partner to your mum, for example, and your mum's like, Declan, were there no nice Irish boys?

Declan (54:46)
Yeah, could you imagine? And then Nate was sat right there being like

Silvan (54:52)
Right.

Declan (54:53)
Yeah, it's not yeah. I mean you're raising a good point here. Yeah, that was rude. That was rude. You

and David should apologize.

Silvan (54:58)
Okay, I'm glad we can agree.

And Yuna needs to write an apology letter, I think, from the book. But

Declan (55:04)
Yeah.

Silvan (55:04)
and this is where I feel like David is a little bit more emotionally aware. Because Rachel writes all this time, Dad said quietly, almost to himself, you've been holding the secret this whole time. And so there is this just this resonance that David is having and this

Processing like you talked about. They're processing in real time. So not just processing their son is gay, but that their son is with Ilya Rosanov. Like there's a lot to process here.

Declan (55:38)
Yeah, and it's not gonna initially be easy for them. And also they're thinking of how Shane would have been feeling for that length of time, and also the idea that he didn't come to them. He didn't feel safe and comfortable enough to come to them and and to open up about this aspect of his life. which for them probably felt terrible as parents. that Shane had any doubt at all that they wouldn't love him despite who he was.

And I suppose a lot of parents who do have LGBTQ plus kids who don't come out until they're like a lot older. I imagine it would be upsetting for them to hear that you were always holding it in and you were always suffering and you were always in a really bad way and you never felt comfortable enough to open up to them. yeah, I I could I could see what happened.

bother them. It would bother me definitely the idea of that. of not being a stable enough base, of being a secure enough place that you could do it without any doubt of judgment.

Silvan (56:55)
Yes, and that's not a direct criticism on people's parenting styles or their relationship,

Declan (57:00)
No.

Silvan (57:01)
the strength of their relationship. You can be a great parent, you can have a great relationship with your child and then still not disclose something like this to you. So it's not necessarily a criticism of that. I think

Declan (57:14)
Yeah. It's

Silvan (57:15)
everyone's situation is so unique and the reason why

Declan (57:17)
Yeah.

Silvan (57:18)
they may withhold is so unique.

Declan (57:20)
Yeah, and that's something I need to make clear is that you as a parent may believe that, but sometimes it's not about you. This is something deeply personal. And even if you are the most progressive parent in the world, you might have a child who doesn't want come out because they cannot accept it within themselves. And that internal work needs to happen first before they can find the courage to say it to anybody. So for a lot of parents like that.

It's not always personal. It may just be that they needed to figure it out first.

Silvan (57:56)
And it varies, you know, age is a factor, the geopolitical

Declan (58:00)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (58:01)
climate is a factor, culture is a factor, expectations are a factor here. So there's lots of other variables that play into this. But one thing that is very unicoded here is Yuna jumps up from a chair and says, Alright, so what's the plan? Now, we love Yuna, you know, Yuna is a planner.

Declan (58:23)
Yeah, it's very on brand for her. And we do finally get that inkling of how she is in the T V show. Like she is a woman of action. She is like, Okay, if this is the guy, this is the guy. So let's figure out how we're gonna make this work for you guys so you can be happy together. Which is so sweet. That's such a sweet thing.

Silvan (58:43)
It is, they really turn around in a very quick amount of time. But one thing that we don't get in the book that we do get in the show is that conversation between Yuna and Shane. And I didn't realise how important it was as a viewer to hear that conversation between Shane and his mum, essentially discussing why it was so hard for him and Yuna apologizing. And that was such a

cathartic moment for me in repairing that relationship and looking forward that it's and I don't expect Rachel to have written that but it just I think for me identified how special that scene was in the TV show.

Declan (59:27)
Yeah. In the T V show, Yuna is like a fully realized character and she has an arc of a sort. She needs to remind herself that she is first and foremost supposed to be Shane's mother, not just her not just his manager. and that role gets a little lost. She you can tell throughout the show that she is losing touch with Shane's feelings and how he's feeling. And she is so

Driven by the career and perception and public persona and brand deals and all these other things, which has caused her to lose sight of her son. And I think the dinner scene, sort of in the middle of the season, when he is sort of getting upset about being asked about he wumbled in and all these other things, and being asked about his dating life, she had she perhaps been a bit more

less focused on career Shane and a bit more switched in on his emotional state as a as his parent. she might have realized that there was something a bit more deeply wrong with Shane at that moment in time. But you know, parents aren't perfect. They're not perfect people. And I suppose the arc for her is coming back to realize that she needs to

you know, make herself more accessible as chain's parental figure so much more than as manager.

Silvan (1:01:06)
Hmm. I had a different take on that from the TV show perspective. So for me, when they're having that lunch and they're discussing Wimbledon and Swedish royalty and all of that. Shane, yeah, you're right. She could have tuned in the mum and less the manager. But up until that point, Shane has acted very consistently. It's Ilya who has almost derailed Shane in a way. And

Now Shane is presenting like, I don't want you to rob me of my two weeks that I get off. What do you mean you've planned my two weeks? I'm sure his whole life that's what he would have done. I'm sure his parents would have planned the two weeks and we're gonna go traveling, we're gonna do this. And Shane would have gone along with it and not

Declan (1:01:51)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (1:01:52)
had a single concern, worry, or fought back on it. But Ilya is this spark, quite literally, that is in Shane, and Shane is wanting different things. Shane is experiencing different things.

Shane has not communicated this to his parents, so

Declan (1:02:07)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (1:02:08)
how is Yuna to know that you know, baby Shane is growing up and he wants different things until he tells them?

Declan (1:02:16)
Yeah.

I suppose his reaction in general, because it's so outside of the norm that it would have been like, Whoa, are you okay? What's what's up? What's wrong? What's where did that come from? but again, you know, Shane is not forthcoming. So like there's only so much you can really blame someone for the actions of somebody else and their inability to communicate.

So yeah, no, I get your point. I I I can

Silvan (1:02:48)
Yeah.

Declan (1:02:49)
yeah.

Silvan (1:02:50)
And I think for me, Shane in that point is having a little bit of a tantrum. He's having an adult grown up tantrum. And sometimes as a parent you don't give in to the tantrum, you just pacify and you move on.

Declan (1:03:01)
Yeah, I mean, I am someone who hates when people plan my time off for me. it pisses me off to no end. It's like, no, my plan was no plan. And that does not mean that it is available time for you to fill up for me. So no thank you. Not having that. Be about your business.

Silvan (1:03:24)
Deck

Deck and I think this is coded for for me texting you like when are we meeting next to to record the next section?

Declan (1:03:31)
You're fine. Don't

worry about it. I'll let you know if you're fucking me off.

Silvan (1:03:36)
I trust he will. I trust he will.

And I really liked how they bring Scott back into the conversation, which is why it's important to read Game Changer. Yes, I wasn't

Declan (1:03:47)
yeah.

Silvan (1:03:48)
the biggest fan of it, but there is a reason it's the first book. It sets the foundation. And here it's Shane who says, I emailed him. I just, you know, I appreciated his bravery over of or whatever. I didn't tell him about me or about Ilya. And so

There is this threading through that I really appreciate because sometimes you can forget between books and it might be years between the books to publish perhaps. and I thought that was a really nice touch. More so

That changed something inside me. It was huge. It made me want to try. Made me want to be braver and to let myself try to be happy.

Declan (1:04:30)
Hmm. Yeah. Because Shane is basically a younger version of Scott at this point. He's a young, closeted game man who is in the hockey world, incredibly talented, is top of his game, and is famous for you know being one of the best in the world. And seeing Scott be brave enough to take risk.

For his happiness would be inspiring for someone like Shane. It's like, well, if he can do it, maybe I can do it. And that's basically what makes Scott so special is he is the first to be like, I'm gonna risk it. I'm gonna risk it. I'm gonna be the voice for all those who cannot say what I am now willing to say. And that would be inspirational. It would be, yeah.

Silvan (1:05:32)
And the way the chapter closes is Shane having this this panic attack, which is presupposed by, you know, the talk about Ilya and moving from Boston to Canada, you know, and and and it just feels a little bit overwhelming.

Declan (1:05:52)
Yeah, I mean, his entire life has just changed in the space of like four hours. Realistically, like all the plans have changed, how he is going to direct his life, all the pressure that he's going to be under, all the change of his journey in life and his roadmap for what he thought he could have. it's all upended. Like people go to therapy when stuff like this happens to them.

Like I get people sitting in front of me because they've undergone a huge change of life and they don't know how to really address it. He has just addressed like three or four at the one time. He's coming out, the moving of his partner, the fact that he's not gonna keep a secret, he has a retirement plan with this guy, he has all this other thing's going on. Completely overwhelming. my god, could you imagine?

Silvan (1:06:43)
So I have Lizzie from the ShelfaWeb Podcast voice in my head saying they are moving at lesbian light speed.

Declan (1:06:53)
That's excellent. Yes. It's true. Yeah. my god, yeah. I mean, gay people do that in general. I don't think it's just a lesbian thing. I think gay men do that too. I have been guilty of that. Yeah. Yep. It's just true. I don't know what it is. I think because so much of gay relationships can feel so transactional.

And typically interactions can feel so transactional and very base level, and you know, there can be a lot of just wanting to hook up and wanting to sleep about that when you find someone that shares the interest and wanting to be in like a monogamous relationship with you, you're like, Come here. It's us forever now. I finally found one. which

Silvan (1:07:44)
He's

a keeper.

Declan (1:07:46)
He's keeper because he literally wants something that is not as basic as everybody else wants. and so you cling to the person and it's not always a good idea, I can tell you that right now. I think you just get so excited at the idea that there's someone that finally wants the same thing as you that you just like skip a whole load of like development and steps and the red flags come out after the fact, which is not good.

Because by that point you're already committed in, you've already formed a really strong attachment to somebody, and you've intertwined your lives in a way which is very hard to unpick. so yeah,

Silvan (1:08:22)
Yeah.

Declan (1:08:22)
if you are a queer person and you're feeling the urge, you met someone, you're like, my god, date one, soulmate, we are never separating again. Please pace yourself, create a bit of distance, do not

Move in with someone after three months. It is not good. Keep your independence and keep in contact with your friends and please for the love of God peace yourself.

Silvan (1:08:54)
I think you're right. The number of times that I've had friends, you know, date one, like you said, this is the person. This is the person. And then a week later, yeah, they ghosted me. It's like, well, clearly they weren't the person then. Like, let's be honest.

Declan (1:09:10)
You don't know if

they're the person because you don't know them.

Silvan (1:09:14)
Exactly. And don't drop your friends for a significant other. Your friends are going to be there far longer than this other person will be. And

Declan (1:09:24)
Yeah.

Silvan (1:09:25)
they will be there to pick up the pieces if it doesn't work out. So please do not drop your friends, because you're the number of times, the number of times. And it's happened to everyone and everyone learns and we grow from it. So you know what? Go through it.

Do it, drop the friends, realize how good friends you have, you know, sign the lease, make the mistakes, because we all did.

Declan (1:09:53)
Or doubt.

Silvan (1:09:56)
I know if you go through Declan's advice then you'll save yourself a lot of time, money and heartache. I'm just saying make the mistakes 'cause we all did. but at the very end of this chapter we get Ilya being the person for Shane, and there's this realization from Shane's parents. It's like

He speaks shame. It's not just us anymore. He speaks shame. So Rachel writes Eliot took his hands and rubbed his thumb soothingly over the backs of them. We are good here, yes, he said. Your family is here, and your boyfriend, and we are okay here. Rachel writes, Shane raised his head slightly. Boyfriend? Such a ridiculous word, such a ridiculous, wonderful word.

Elliott shrugged and grinned. I think yes. Shane says yes.

Declan (1:10:56)
Very sweet. Yeah. It's you just they get each other. They get each other. They are to the point now where they understand one another and they understand what feels right and what feels good and what can help in situations like that when one of them is down and and out. It's just a lovely moment and a real good way of also showing Shane's parents that Ilya does understand him.

And that he is supportive and loves him and cares deeply about him. and it's such a simple gesture, but more than enough to pull Shane out of his sort of spiral. And that's just very sweet and very attentive.

Silvan (1:11:40)
It is. It is such a sweet moment, like you say. I mean, I don't get the impression that Shane's parents are commenting about this. I think it's sort of written between the lines and insinuated

Declan (1:11:53)
Well

Silvan (1:11:54)
more so. But I can only imagine as a parent watching someone soothe my child, how important that would be and how important they are to me because of that.

Declan (1:12:06)
Mm, yeah, I can see that a hundred percent. And you want to make sure that your child is being looked after by whoever it is they choose to love. And you know, as long as they're happy and healthy and that person makes them happy, that's probably all you really need. so yeah, that's all you need to do as parents. Just make sure that that person's making them happy, healthy and

Silvan (1:12:37)
I agree. Declan, we got through one chapter.

Declan (1:12:41)
Yeah, anyone who thought we were getting free more, take a shot.

Silvan (1:12:45)
Please not if you're driving though. yeah, I really enjoyed this chapter. I thought it was so beautifully written. I'm really glad we took our time with this one.

Declan (1:12:57)
Yeah, I really like this. there's so much in these chapters and I think it's some of Rachel Reed's best writing. I really do love the way in which it unfolded and they had such great moments that then became really good material for the T V show. So yeah, fantastic. I really love this one.

But that is where we're going to stop for today. Thank you so much for joining us again for this deep dive of Hero Rivalry, the book. we've had lots of fun with this one, in particular this chapter Selwyn was a big fan, I was a big fan, and we're glad we got to give it proper time to delve through it. also don't forget that we also have our book club on Fable. at the moment we are reading.

Becoming Us by Ags Cross, but we're moving on to Sweat by Jonah Yorkson. So if either of those books sound very interesting to you, then make sure you join us on Fable. It's the Long Game Book Club. sorry, Long Game Pod Book Club. so join us there and keep an eye out for changes in that and announcements through that. And also follow us on Instagram too. All those links will be down in the description. And like, comment, share, and we'll see you next time for

What is going to be one of the last episodes for for Heated Rivalry?

Silvan (1:14:20)
Who knows? We might push it. There's an epilogue

Declan (1:14:22)
Within

Silvan (1:14:23)
and there's dinner with Aiden, so don't count your chickens too soon.

Declan (1:14:29)
Yeah, we'll see what happens.