1 00:00:05,710 --> 00:00:07,000 Welcome back to Count Me In, 2 00:00:07,001 --> 00:00:10,720 IMA's podcast about all things affecting the accounting and finance world. 3 00:00:11,030 --> 00:00:12,440 This is your host Mitch Roshong. 4 00:00:12,540 --> 00:00:15,960 And today you'll be listening to episode 165 of our series. 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,190 A Harvard Business Review study concluded that more than 357 billion dollars 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,270 spent annually on learning and development did not achieve the desired return on 7 00:00:26,271 --> 00:00:26,930 investment. 8 00:00:26,930 --> 00:00:31,270 It turns out that only one in 10 used the learn skills and only one in four 9 00:00:31,300 --> 00:00:35,310 believe training actually improved their performance. So we must ask, 10 00:00:35,690 --> 00:00:37,390 is there a better way to learn the critical, 11 00:00:37,870 --> 00:00:41,980 personal and business skills we need? Fortunately, for today's episode, 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:43,740 you will hear from Lynda Kitamura, 13 00:00:44,780 --> 00:00:48,460 a seasoned Chief Financial Officer with a background that covers multinational 14 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,540 to startup. We will also hear from David Wray, 15 00:00:51,540 --> 00:00:53,860 the author of the Power of Potential, 16 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,900 and the President of the International Group of the French CFO network, DF CG. 17 00:01:00,010 --> 00:01:03,890 They spoke with Adam about their view on what accounting professionals can do to 18 00:01:03,891 --> 00:01:06,690 accelerate the transition to effective continuous learning. 19 00:01:07,370 --> 00:01:11,650 A skill the World Economic Forum Report on the future of jobs concludes is 20 00:01:11,850 --> 00:01:14,690 critically important and will remain so through 2025. 21 00:01:14,950 --> 00:01:17,570 So now let's head over and listen to the conversation. 22 00:01:25,060 --> 00:01:28,760 So the Harvard Business Review findings that only 25% of learning attendees, 23 00:01:29,350 --> 00:01:32,720 find that what they learn improves their performance. 24 00:01:33,230 --> 00:01:36,520 What has been your experience with traditional learning approaches? 25 00:01:37,090 --> 00:01:39,040 Maybe I'll start that question then. Adam, 26 00:01:39,630 --> 00:01:43,190 it's a great question to really set the context for the discussion with Lynda 27 00:01:43,970 --> 00:01:48,110 and personally I've long believed that the traditional methods of learning are 28 00:01:48,111 --> 00:01:49,310 woefully inadequate, 29 00:01:49,450 --> 00:01:53,990 and that's because they use the same approach in terms of being an 30 00:01:54,060 --> 00:01:56,990 outside-in approach. Let me explain what I mean by that. 31 00:01:57,690 --> 00:02:00,070 So I've got this philosophy that says, you know, 32 00:02:00,090 --> 00:02:04,500 an outside-in approach is effectively when someone comes into a room and they 33 00:02:04,501 --> 00:02:08,420 start talking about their experience, the way they learn their techniques, 34 00:02:08,470 --> 00:02:12,700 their tools. And that's great for them. In fact, it's brilliant for them, 35 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,740 but it's not necessarily good for me. 36 00:02:14,741 --> 00:02:17,860 It's not necessarily good for Lynda or even for you or anybody else. 37 00:02:18,640 --> 00:02:23,380 So what I talk about a lot more in what I've practiced my entire 38 00:02:23,890 --> 00:02:27,690 career is this idea of the inside out method of learning. 39 00:02:28,550 --> 00:02:30,650 And basically, let me give you an example of, 40 00:02:30,891 --> 00:02:32,930 what that inside-out method looks like. 41 00:02:32,950 --> 00:02:34,850 And I'll use public speaking as an example. 42 00:02:35,550 --> 00:02:37,650 So if you think of the traditional way of learning, 43 00:02:38,190 --> 00:02:41,690 you would end up going into a classroom, they would teach you about tone. 44 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,000 They would teach you about pitch. Maybe they would teach you about what to wear, 45 00:02:45,460 --> 00:02:49,360 how to use media, how to walk around the stage and things like that. 46 00:02:49,380 --> 00:02:50,880 So all external things, 47 00:02:51,660 --> 00:02:55,880 but what they don't teach you for example is how do you harness your nerves as 48 00:02:55,881 --> 00:02:59,320 you're about ready to walk on stage and you're nervous. You've got butterflies. 49 00:02:59,740 --> 00:03:02,800 You're feeling that little bit of nausea. As you walk on thinking this, 50 00:03:02,940 --> 00:03:06,200 can I even do this? That's what they need to teach you. 51 00:03:06,340 --> 00:03:08,160 And when you look at experts in this, 52 00:03:08,161 --> 00:03:13,120 they've got a very specific technique for how they harness that nervousness and 53 00:03:13,121 --> 00:03:15,240 create a really positive energy for themselves. 54 00:03:15,860 --> 00:03:18,440 That's what I mean by inside out. So it's taking the things , 55 00:03:18,570 --> 00:03:21,190 you can't see the skills and attributes you can't see, 56 00:03:21,650 --> 00:03:24,230 and basically using that to develop expertise. 57 00:03:24,890 --> 00:03:28,630 And that's what I refer to as the visible versus the invisible elements of being 58 00:03:28,631 --> 00:03:29,464 skilled at something. 59 00:03:30,010 --> 00:03:33,830 And it helps to put this in context from the stages of learning. 60 00:03:33,831 --> 00:03:38,310 So if you think about learning from the standpoint of we've got this unconscious 61 00:03:39,860 --> 00:03:43,060 incompetence, meaning we don't know, we don't know something, right? 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,780 And we all start there every single one of us at some point. 63 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,980 And it's then recognizing that we have that gap in knowledge, 64 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,180 and then how do we then move it from the first phase, 65 00:03:55,181 --> 00:03:58,580 which is not being aware to then the awareness we're still potentially 66 00:03:58,941 --> 00:04:01,730 incompetent in that context. And I use that term very loosely, 67 00:04:02,270 --> 00:04:04,170 but at least now we know we don't know something. 68 00:04:04,170 --> 00:04:08,250 Then we need to move it to having this conscious competence. 69 00:04:08,350 --> 00:04:12,090 Now we're starting to be aware that we've got a skill. We're applying it. 70 00:04:12,091 --> 00:04:15,970 We're starting to get fairly good at it. And ultimately when we move to mastery, 71 00:04:15,971 --> 00:04:19,290 it moves to a level of unconsciousness again. So then, you know, 72 00:04:19,291 --> 00:04:22,600 you look at experts and they can be incredibly talented. 73 00:04:22,601 --> 00:04:24,960 And when you speak to them and say, Hey, how do you do that? 74 00:04:24,961 --> 00:04:28,680 How do you harness your nerves before you walk on stage? 75 00:04:28,681 --> 00:04:32,240 And the typical answer you get at first is, I don't know, I just do it. 76 00:04:32,241 --> 00:04:36,560 And it's about how you get below that to say, Hey, how do you really do it? 77 00:04:36,561 --> 00:04:40,360 Tell me a little bit about what you go through so that you can start to 78 00:04:40,361 --> 00:04:42,750 understand the techniques that are basically hidden. 79 00:04:42,751 --> 00:04:46,910 So that's why I feel that the traditional outside-in approach of learning, 80 00:04:46,911 --> 00:04:47,490 doesn't work. 81 00:04:47,490 --> 00:04:50,350 So the Harvard Business Review finding's really don't surprise me from that 82 00:04:50,351 --> 00:04:52,230 perspective. What's your take Lynda? 83 00:04:53,130 --> 00:04:56,990 Thanks, David. Certainly would concur , 84 00:04:56,991 --> 00:05:01,420 with everything that you are saying, just from my experience, I would say, 85 00:05:02,540 --> 00:05:05,420 to everyone that we wouldn't discount traditional learning. 86 00:05:05,421 --> 00:05:09,580 I think of it more as a foundation, but as David, as you said, 87 00:05:09,670 --> 00:05:14,420 you absolutely as an individual or with your teams need to build on it. 88 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:19,180 So an analogy think of watching a cooking show versus going into the 89 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,530 kitchen and cooking. Both important. 90 00:05:22,830 --> 00:05:27,370 But you do not know until you actually do something or as you say, David, 91 00:05:27,690 --> 00:05:29,850 you practice something or you try it. 92 00:05:29,851 --> 00:05:33,130 You don't uncover what you do know and what you don't know. 93 00:05:33,630 --> 00:05:36,570 You haven't taken the technical learning. 94 00:05:36,571 --> 00:05:38,170 Maybe it's your accounting designation. 95 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,360 Maybe it's some other expertise and brought it to top of mind where it's 96 00:05:42,980 --> 00:05:47,600 more inside, it's more intuitive. So I would say, you know, build on, 97 00:05:47,780 --> 00:05:50,720 on those traditional, if you have them, because they do serve a purpose, 98 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,120 but David, as you said, then how do you internalize it? 99 00:05:54,121 --> 00:05:57,240 How do you become self aware? This is what I do well, 100 00:05:57,340 --> 00:06:01,680 but these are my gaps and then start doing things and it can be a 101 00:06:03,041 --> 00:06:04,560 class or it can be practice, 102 00:06:04,580 --> 00:06:08,440 or if it can be a volunteer role or it can be an assignment on a board. 103 00:06:08,441 --> 00:06:11,360 There's ways, different ways of doing that practice. 104 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,180 So you both raise some very interesting examples. 105 00:06:17,190 --> 00:06:21,490 And if you could choose one example to share with the listeners where you 106 00:06:21,491 --> 00:06:23,530 personally had the richest learning experience, 107 00:06:23,531 --> 00:06:27,410 what would that be and why that one? Lynda, can we start with you? 108 00:06:29,390 --> 00:06:30,890 Let me think. an example. 109 00:06:30,891 --> 00:06:35,570 I think one of my best examples for myself was early in my career. 110 00:06:35,571 --> 00:06:40,400 So I was working with a multinational high tech company and 111 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,280 I was very early mid twenties. 112 00:06:42,900 --> 00:06:47,680 And this company went through its first acquisition of a workstation company. 113 00:06:48,780 --> 00:06:52,360 And at that time there hadn't been processes or protocol. They said, Hey, Lynda, 114 00:06:52,361 --> 00:06:55,720 would you go over to this company's offices, 115 00:06:56,210 --> 00:07:00,070 other side of the city and just figure out how to integrate it. 116 00:07:00,810 --> 00:07:04,790 So I had my accounting and business degrees and I had that piece, 117 00:07:05,330 --> 00:07:09,230 but until I went over and learned, okay, where is your general ledger? 118 00:07:09,231 --> 00:07:13,630 Where are your systems? What do you do? And immerse yourself in it, 119 00:07:13,631 --> 00:07:16,350 you don't know what you do and don't know. About a company, 120 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,420 about the business model, about the people, as David said, half of it is, 121 00:07:20,741 --> 00:07:25,380 the emotional intelligence and emotional quotient. And so I think for me, 122 00:07:25,930 --> 00:07:29,940 immersing myself in that unknown situation, 123 00:07:29,941 --> 00:07:34,340 where I was the only individual and these other 40 people were not very happy to 124 00:07:34,341 --> 00:07:35,174 have me there, 125 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,650 was my best experience of an on-hand learning experience. 126 00:07:40,300 --> 00:07:41,970 David, I'm gonna turn it to you now. 127 00:07:43,030 --> 00:07:45,250 So I I agree with Lynda. Adam, 128 00:07:45,251 --> 00:07:49,530 I think it's really challenging to choose, but one example, right? 129 00:07:49,531 --> 00:07:51,090 Because when you think about your career, 130 00:07:51,091 --> 00:07:54,330 it's rich of examples that we've had in terms of learning. 131 00:07:54,331 --> 00:07:59,130 But let me give it a go anyway. I think for me, it was probably to be honest, 132 00:07:59,170 --> 00:08:01,360 when I wrote my book. 133 00:08:01,361 --> 00:08:04,720 Something that first really seemed so easy, 134 00:08:04,740 --> 00:08:09,000 turned out to be so much more challenging than I ever expected that it 135 00:08:09,700 --> 00:08:14,280 would. And the learning for me went well beyond the idea of a 10% new approach, 136 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,320 which I tend to adopt a day to day. 137 00:08:16,321 --> 00:08:20,070 And what I mean by that is I just do one little thing every day. 138 00:08:20,071 --> 00:08:24,510 So if 10% of my day is a new learning, a new experience, 139 00:08:24,590 --> 00:08:27,910 meeting a new person, learning about a new process, as Lynda said, you know, 140 00:08:27,911 --> 00:08:32,910 going in and, seeing something different. This went well beyond that 10%. 141 00:08:33,010 --> 00:08:36,870 So I was probably at the 90% learning new, which was, 142 00:08:36,970 --> 00:08:39,990 definitely at the deep end. If I think about, for 143 00:08:41,610 --> 00:08:44,460 example, something that at least listeners will go through very commonly. 144 00:08:44,461 --> 00:08:47,980 And we all go through as accounting and finance professionals. 145 00:08:47,981 --> 00:08:51,580 It's one thing to write a report or to write an accounting paper, 146 00:08:51,581 --> 00:08:56,000 or even frankly, to write articles that are accounting, business, 147 00:08:56,060 --> 00:09:00,000 or transformation related. That's so much different than writing a book. 148 00:09:00,940 --> 00:09:02,840 If I think about what it took to write a book, 149 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:07,240 I had to think about how do I elaborate ideas, really, not just superficially, 150 00:09:07,241 --> 00:09:10,320 which you tend to have to do when the writing format is much shorter. 151 00:09:10,681 --> 00:09:14,360 You tend to go over at a fairly high level, but when you write a book, 152 00:09:14,530 --> 00:09:16,590 you have to elaborate them much deeper than that. 153 00:09:17,010 --> 00:09:18,430 And you have to avoid repetition, 154 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,670 which believe me is so much harder than it sounds because we do 155 00:09:23,671 --> 00:09:27,510 tend to repeat ourselves, as adults as well. 156 00:09:28,090 --> 00:09:32,630 And then I had to learn how to use humor appropriately. I love humor personally, 157 00:09:33,170 --> 00:09:35,860 but humor has to be situationally appropriate, right? 158 00:09:35,861 --> 00:09:40,020 Because it doesn't work in all cultures. It doesn't work in all contexts. 159 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,340 So having to think about humor very differently. 160 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:47,340 And then I had to be able to tell the story in a really compelling yet relatable 161 00:09:47,341 --> 00:09:51,100 way. Again, all sounds so easy, but when you actually get into it, you think, 162 00:09:51,101 --> 00:09:52,700 okay, how am I actually going to do this? 163 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,330 So I also learned through that process, that I need to, 164 00:09:56,630 --> 00:09:58,930 or I had to get comfortable relying on experts. 165 00:09:58,930 --> 00:10:02,370 People that could do things that frankly I couldn't do. 166 00:10:02,550 --> 00:10:06,210 And I think that's a big learning in terms of going through career is knowing 167 00:10:06,211 --> 00:10:10,050 when to lean into the expertise of other people and accept that it's something 168 00:10:10,051 --> 00:10:11,010 we don't have ourselves. 169 00:10:11,790 --> 00:10:16,640 And I learned that probably the quickest through the editing process. In fact, 170 00:10:16,700 --> 00:10:20,200 one of the editors I had when I did the book and by the way, 171 00:10:20,201 --> 00:10:24,080 when we think of editing, I personally thought of just one editor. No, no, 172 00:10:24,081 --> 00:10:25,000 it doesn't work like that. 173 00:10:25,001 --> 00:10:28,560 There's a structural editor who helps set the structure of the book. 174 00:10:28,580 --> 00:10:29,920 So it actually makes sense. 175 00:10:30,190 --> 00:10:33,400 Then there's a different kind of editor that helps with the flow to make sure it 176 00:10:33,401 --> 00:10:35,920 all sounds cohesive and works together. 177 00:10:36,550 --> 00:10:39,990 Then there's a third type of editor who ends up correcting things like the 178 00:10:39,991 --> 00:10:42,950 spelling mistakes and the grammar, very different skill sets. 179 00:10:43,850 --> 00:10:47,870 And the best learning I got was from the structural editor, who frankly, 180 00:10:48,060 --> 00:10:52,510 when she gave me feedback on the book at first was she said to me, look, David, 181 00:10:52,511 --> 00:10:53,510 you've got a couple of choices. 182 00:10:54,450 --> 00:10:56,350 You can either go with the format that you've got, 183 00:10:57,150 --> 00:11:00,620 which is effectively talking about the inside-out model. 184 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,340 And then the second part that I talked about in the original version of the book 185 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,300 was how to build a business out of it. Because it's something I had done before, 186 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,340 and that was the approach, I submitted in and she said, you could do that, 187 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:13,900 but she said, how about you do this? 188 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,580 How about you keep the first half of the book, which is great. 189 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,770 And then talk about the second half from the standpoint of building it into your 190 00:11:20,830 --> 00:11:21,663 own life. 191 00:11:21,950 --> 00:11:25,810 And then talking to people about how they embed the technique in their own life, 192 00:11:26,350 --> 00:11:28,250 rather than talk about how to build a business. 193 00:11:28,790 --> 00:11:33,090 And I did that and it turned out to be a great decision because the book has 194 00:11:33,091 --> 00:11:34,730 done really well and it's relatable. 195 00:11:35,030 --> 00:11:39,000 So I think that was the learning I had as well as how do you take feedback in 196 00:11:39,001 --> 00:11:43,240 the spirit it's intended because it's designed ultimately to help us, right? 197 00:11:43,260 --> 00:11:45,400 And if we take it from that standpoint, 198 00:11:45,820 --> 00:11:48,080 we can end up with a much better product, which I did, 199 00:11:48,540 --> 00:11:51,800 and it can also provide a springboard in my case for the next book, 200 00:11:51,890 --> 00:11:54,800 which will end up coming out next year. So for me, 201 00:11:54,801 --> 00:11:57,520 it's all about being open to learning, open to change, 202 00:11:57,740 --> 00:12:00,160 and really seeing the whole thing as one big adventure, 203 00:12:00,660 --> 00:12:03,560 no matter how challenging it looks. To Lynda's point, you know, 204 00:12:03,561 --> 00:12:06,720 whether you walk into an acquisition or you walk into a book, 205 00:12:06,790 --> 00:12:09,640 it's how do you look at it as look, this is one big adventure challenge. 206 00:12:10,140 --> 00:12:10,973 Let me take it on. 207 00:12:12,650 --> 00:12:15,630 Now, one thing that I picked up from, our conversations that we had together, 208 00:12:15,830 --> 00:12:19,910 was that you two have been working together 209 00:12:21,031 --> 00:12:25,630 for many years and become friends and maybe I could start with asking what was 210 00:12:25,631 --> 00:12:29,430 one memorable thing that you did learn from each other working together and how 211 00:12:29,431 --> 00:12:30,830 has it impacted you now? 212 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,020 And David let's put you in the hot seat since you reported to Lynda. 213 00:12:35,420 --> 00:12:38,260 Oh, thanks Adam. Nothing like being in the hot seat. So you're right. 214 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,100 In all serious, you know, I really learned many, 215 00:12:42,101 --> 00:12:46,340 many things from Lynda or perhaps the most memorable one that I learned was how 216 00:12:46,341 --> 00:12:48,500 to be an empathetic leader. 217 00:12:48,701 --> 00:12:52,620 If I think about the fact that we spend hours together in meetings, honestly, 218 00:12:52,621 --> 00:12:55,450 sometimes some of those meetings were quite challenging, 219 00:12:55,451 --> 00:12:58,290 especially when we started talking about revenue recognition. 220 00:12:58,310 --> 00:13:01,370 And can we recognize revenue? Why can't we, 221 00:13:01,510 --> 00:13:03,370 and is there a way around that, 222 00:13:03,371 --> 00:13:06,770 or if we think about the country balance sheet review processes that we went 223 00:13:06,771 --> 00:13:07,051 through, 224 00:13:07,051 --> 00:13:10,130 where sometimes there was an item in the balance sheet and lots of questions 225 00:13:10,131 --> 00:13:14,720 came out and sometimes those questions were difficult to work through. 226 00:13:15,220 --> 00:13:17,600 And sometimes the opinions differed quite a lot as well, 227 00:13:17,601 --> 00:13:20,400 and they could become quite strong and do so quite quickly. 228 00:13:21,380 --> 00:13:26,200 And it was really helpful to watch Lynda go through this process and 229 00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:31,240 see her really skillfully maneuver through different motivations and think about 230 00:13:31,340 --> 00:13:36,110 how to connect with people wherever they happen to be as opposed to asking them 231 00:13:36,130 --> 00:13:39,230 to connect with her, where she happened to be. And frankly, 232 00:13:39,450 --> 00:13:41,470 she made it look effortless, right? 233 00:13:41,570 --> 00:13:44,750 In terms of putting yourself in the shoes of other people and, 234 00:13:44,990 --> 00:13:48,190 and being able to see why they were coming at something from the way they did. 235 00:13:48,410 --> 00:13:51,470 And she really took the time to explain, you know, 236 00:13:51,570 --> 00:13:56,460 why she thought a particular approach was perhaps more helpful or more 237 00:13:57,901 --> 00:14:01,780 important in the context of what we were doing or perhaps that it was 238 00:14:01,781 --> 00:14:05,700 unimportant, depending on the situation. And I think it's probably fair to say, 239 00:14:05,701 --> 00:14:07,380 and Lynda might disagree with me, 240 00:14:07,381 --> 00:14:09,620 but I think it's fair to say that she probably, 241 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,660 didn't realize at the time that she was actually modeling the inside- out 242 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:16,130 learning approach, that I ended up writing about in the book. 243 00:14:16,510 --> 00:14:20,210 So she clearly was an early pioneer, knowingly or unknowingly, 244 00:14:20,590 --> 00:14:23,690 and really helped me see things I think through a very different lens. 245 00:14:25,310 --> 00:14:29,210 And she taught me that when we start to understand those hidden motivations for 246 00:14:29,211 --> 00:14:32,410 doing something and how we can tap into that, 247 00:14:32,411 --> 00:14:37,040 then frankly we can learn any skill and perhaps the most valuable of all skills 248 00:14:37,041 --> 00:14:38,760 we can learn just having that mindset. 249 00:14:38,761 --> 00:14:42,440 And that approach is the skill of learning skills. 250 00:14:42,441 --> 00:14:46,600 And this is something that's been talked about by many, 251 00:14:46,601 --> 00:14:49,840 including the world economic forum as well. So in other words, 252 00:14:49,841 --> 00:14:52,640 we're on a path to continuous lifelong learning. 253 00:14:52,641 --> 00:14:55,840 And I think if there's one thing I've taken through my career and, 254 00:14:56,140 --> 00:14:58,080 Lynda has been a strong supporter of, 255 00:14:58,081 --> 00:15:00,920 is that lifelong learning is really important. 256 00:15:00,921 --> 00:15:04,360 And if we remember what I said a little bit earlier about the hidden attributes 257 00:15:04,361 --> 00:15:05,720 of skill mastery, 258 00:15:05,740 --> 00:15:09,760 when we can embed both those visible and invisible elements of the 259 00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:12,870 skill that unconscious part of the brain, 260 00:15:12,871 --> 00:15:15,510 then it becomes something that we just do, right? 261 00:15:15,511 --> 00:15:19,630 It's a little bit like when you drive your car home and you're not consciously 262 00:15:19,631 --> 00:15:22,510 thinking about the roads that you're driving down, 263 00:15:22,511 --> 00:15:26,510 you're not consciously thinking about the trees you're passing or the other cars 264 00:15:26,511 --> 00:15:29,430 on the road, other than obviously for safety, 265 00:15:29,431 --> 00:15:33,500 you're just doing it because it's imprinted as part of your brain. 266 00:15:33,501 --> 00:15:37,620 And ultimately you intuitively know where to go, you know what to do. 267 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:41,140 So by learning how to model skills, frankly, 268 00:15:41,250 --> 00:15:43,380 I've ended up becoming a better leader myself. 269 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:45,940 And I think Lynda is a big part of why that's happened. 270 00:15:47,140 --> 00:15:48,260 Wow. Well, thank you, David. 271 00:15:48,620 --> 00:15:53,290 I think that I'll just sign off the podcast now. 272 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,330 That was lovely. Yeah, kidding aside. 273 00:15:55,331 --> 00:15:59,850 But I do very much appreciate those thoughts and it is a mutual respect. 274 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:01,410 And I think, Adam, when you ask, 275 00:16:01,531 --> 00:16:05,050 what have we learned from each other? 276 00:16:05,350 --> 00:16:09,890 I certainly have valued from the beginning in working with David, 277 00:16:09,891 --> 00:16:11,010 especially in finance and accounting. 278 00:16:11,011 --> 00:16:15,960 It takes a lot of courage for one to do what we know 279 00:16:15,961 --> 00:16:18,640 is the right thing. And, so, 280 00:16:19,281 --> 00:16:22,160 I've always said to my finance team, you know, 281 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,640 be prepared to lose your job, 282 00:16:25,641 --> 00:16:27,920 to stand up for the right thing. 283 00:16:27,940 --> 00:16:32,280 Misreporting or misrepresentation of financials is one of the fundamental 284 00:16:33,050 --> 00:16:35,070 problems and risks out there. 285 00:16:35,530 --> 00:16:40,030 And so having the courage to know what is correct reporting, 286 00:16:40,031 --> 00:16:41,350 what is correct accounting, 287 00:16:41,370 --> 00:16:45,950 and to stand up for it and you have to build for yourself before you get into 288 00:16:45,951 --> 00:16:48,950 that situation. And David does this and I've done this, 289 00:16:49,010 --> 00:16:51,670 and this is why we work well, 290 00:16:51,671 --> 00:16:54,980 that we recognize that you have to know you're going to stand up for the right 291 00:16:54,981 --> 00:16:57,660 thing before the situation comes up. 292 00:16:57,661 --> 00:17:01,820 You can't decide in the moment what you're going to do because you get confused. 293 00:17:02,420 --> 00:17:07,380 And, the other is you build resiliency in your life so that you're not so 294 00:17:07,381 --> 00:17:12,060 dependent on a job that you haven't set a little bit of savings aside that you, 295 00:17:12,181 --> 00:17:16,090 can get by week to week that not easy. Like this is not, 296 00:17:16,091 --> 00:17:19,410 I don't say that lightly, but try and live within your means. 297 00:17:19,411 --> 00:17:22,850 This isn't a financial podcast, Adam, I promise you, 298 00:17:22,851 --> 00:17:27,610 but it is these kind of steps to build resiliency, 299 00:17:27,660 --> 00:17:31,130 allow you to be your best and allow you to make the right decisions. 300 00:17:31,670 --> 00:17:36,120 And I would also say, you know, learning from David and, seeing what he does, 301 00:17:36,730 --> 00:17:38,000 enthusiasm and risk taking. 302 00:17:38,060 --> 00:17:41,840 Now you can hear the enthusiasm in his voice and writing the book and just how 303 00:17:41,841 --> 00:17:45,840 much he put into that. So what does enthusiasm mean? It means being engaged. 304 00:17:46,081 --> 00:17:47,680 It means doing the research. 305 00:17:47,681 --> 00:17:52,240 It means caring about learning new techniques and 306 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,800 then figuring out how to articulate and share them with the people around you. 307 00:17:56,801 --> 00:18:00,080 In David's case, writing a book and risk taking. 308 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,360 But we're all busy and we're all sometimes afraid of doing more or doing 309 00:18:05,361 --> 00:18:07,680 something that's new and uncomfortable. Again, 310 00:18:07,890 --> 00:18:12,430 great example in David taking that on when he already had lots of other things 311 00:18:12,450 --> 00:18:16,190 on his plate. So I would say Adam, you know, these kinds of things, 312 00:18:16,250 --> 00:18:17,950 you look at your friends that you admire, 313 00:18:18,060 --> 00:18:22,390 look at your colleague that you admire and, pause. What do I admire? 314 00:18:22,570 --> 00:18:24,670 And then see if you can embrace it yourself. 315 00:18:25,870 --> 00:18:27,570 So here's a question, a little outside the box. 316 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,360 What if you're in a situation where you don't look up to any of your colleagues 317 00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:37,520 inside of your workplace? What, you know, is that a reason to say, 318 00:18:37,521 --> 00:18:40,520 you know what, maybe I should go somewhere else where I can grow. 319 00:18:42,460 --> 00:18:46,520 So I'll start with that one. and it's such an important question. I would say, 320 00:18:46,521 --> 00:18:49,560 yes, Adam. So , if you are feeling uncomfortable, 321 00:18:49,820 --> 00:18:52,510 pay attention to your gut, 322 00:18:52,511 --> 00:18:57,470 and then you consider, why am I uncomfortable? 323 00:18:57,730 --> 00:19:01,950 Is it something that can be addressed and managed? And if so, 324 00:19:02,050 --> 00:19:03,110 how would I go about it? 325 00:19:03,111 --> 00:19:07,630 And what would be the avenue where I could find someone in the company 326 00:19:08,370 --> 00:19:13,220 who shares my value set and would be a good, safe, 327 00:19:13,340 --> 00:19:15,100 founding place to address it. 328 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,740 If it is a situation where it's not addressable 329 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,380 and you've underlying concerns. And I think it is absolutely appropriate to say, 330 00:19:24,381 --> 00:19:28,380 do I need to remove myself from this situation? 331 00:19:31,131 --> 00:19:33,010 So those are very fair. And, we will all come through. 332 00:19:33,130 --> 00:19:36,010 I have gone through my career two or three conversations where I thought I'm 333 00:19:36,011 --> 00:19:39,090 gonna get fired today, because I know they're not gonna, 334 00:19:39,091 --> 00:19:40,570 like what I'm going to say. 335 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:45,770 However, I tried to go into those rather than just a, no. It was, we can do A, 336 00:19:45,870 --> 00:19:48,970 or we can do B unfortunately C is off the table. 337 00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:52,520 So let's talk about A and B and it just took 338 00:19:54,590 --> 00:19:58,960 the conversation. Granted, you pulled it back a few times to what you can do, 339 00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:03,040 and then as opposed to deliberately focusing on what you can't, 340 00:20:03,041 --> 00:20:07,520 I would just say the, last, piece of it, and I'll turn it over to David, 341 00:20:07,521 --> 00:20:11,080 is that in every situation, even when I was in high school, 342 00:20:11,081 --> 00:20:14,750 I was working in a part-time job and it was just not a great company. 343 00:20:14,751 --> 00:20:15,750 The processes were bad. 344 00:20:15,751 --> 00:20:20,630 And what I learned was what will I not do when I am 345 00:20:20,930 --> 00:20:25,190 someday in a position of influence. You can always learn, 346 00:20:25,191 --> 00:20:26,830 if you can't learn anything else, 347 00:20:26,831 --> 00:20:31,790 what can you take away that you won't do yourself when you have that chance. 348 00:20:31,791 --> 00:20:34,220 There's always learning. So David, over to you. 349 00:20:35,220 --> 00:20:37,940 You raised some excellent points. And I think Adam, 350 00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:42,140 to answer your question really simply I think if an individual, 351 00:20:42,380 --> 00:20:47,280 a listener is in an organization or a role where they just 352 00:20:47,300 --> 00:20:50,520 don't see any role models, I think to be honest, 353 00:20:50,521 --> 00:20:53,560 I think the easiest thing to do is definitely dust off the resume if it's not 354 00:20:53,561 --> 00:20:54,161 already polished. 355 00:20:54,161 --> 00:20:57,440 And that would be one piece of advice I would always give - I've given it to my 356 00:20:57,540 --> 00:21:01,640 staff my entire career - is always be market ready. 357 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:06,400 And I think this is one chance or one situation where being market ready is 358 00:21:06,751 --> 00:21:11,630 very helpful. Because if we can't look to the individuals around us, 359 00:21:11,631 --> 00:21:15,710 in a workplace setting and feel some sense of pride, relation, connection, 360 00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:19,710 then I think we're not in the right culture. We're not in the right environment. 361 00:21:19,730 --> 00:21:21,750 And I think we do need to look for alternatives. 362 00:21:22,510 --> 00:21:25,390 I think all of the suggestions that Lynda's made are absolutely spot on. 363 00:21:25,530 --> 00:21:30,300 And I agree with them. I agree, it's hard sometimes to do the right thing, 364 00:21:30,301 --> 00:21:31,540 to make the tough calls, 365 00:21:31,770 --> 00:21:35,780 because to realize that we're in the wrong environment means we have to leave. 366 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,860 And that puts us back into a risk taking position as well. 367 00:21:38,861 --> 00:21:41,700 Potentially we have to, you know, start all the way at the bottom, 368 00:21:41,701 --> 00:21:44,860 depending on where we are in our careers. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. 369 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,370 But all of it is significant change, and all of it needs to be adopted, 370 00:21:49,990 --> 00:21:52,490 but they're all important skills to learn, right? 371 00:21:52,491 --> 00:21:54,730 Because the more resilient we can be in our lives, 372 00:21:54,731 --> 00:21:56,450 whether it's personally or professionally, 373 00:21:56,790 --> 00:21:58,650 the more successful we will end up being. 374 00:21:59,110 --> 00:22:03,610 And the more likely we are to choose environments and roles that fit for us, 375 00:22:03,611 --> 00:22:06,290 right. We don't feel compelled. As Lynda said, 376 00:22:06,291 --> 00:22:09,960 I remember taking that first part-time job at as well as a kid thinking, oh, 377 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,000 I never want to do this when I grow up. 378 00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:15,440 And it was more this idea of just realizing, okay, 379 00:22:15,620 --> 00:22:19,320 if I want to do something different, I have to take control of what I do, 380 00:22:19,780 --> 00:22:22,200 and I have to be responsible for the decisions that I make. 381 00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:23,560 It's not down to anybody else. 382 00:22:24,140 --> 00:22:28,910 So I think ultimately just having that mindset from a very early age is very 383 00:22:28,911 --> 00:22:29,744 helpful. 384 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,870 Definitely. And you guys have a very rich experiences in your career, you know, 385 00:22:33,991 --> 00:22:36,030 I think that was a nice segue to, you know, 386 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,390 what would you offer individuals who are starting their career or midway through 387 00:22:39,391 --> 00:22:39,791 their career, 388 00:22:39,791 --> 00:22:43,910 or even contemplating a career change to kind of help them prepare for the next 389 00:22:43,930 --> 00:22:46,910 challenge. And I think we kind of started that with that last question, but, 390 00:22:46,911 --> 00:22:48,750 Lynda, maybe you can dig into that a little bit more? 391 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:50,673 So when, 392 00:22:50,941 --> 00:22:54,900 people look forward and a career change or a career decision is one of the 393 00:22:54,901 --> 00:22:56,780 biggest things that people struggle with and, 394 00:22:56,981 --> 00:23:00,100 deliberate on for all of the right reasons. 395 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,300 So if you're in a role and let's say, Adam, 396 00:23:03,301 --> 00:23:05,380 you're in a role for five or six years, and you're thinking, 397 00:23:05,381 --> 00:23:10,330 should I make a change? One role of them to, ask yourself is, 398 00:23:10,331 --> 00:23:13,370 well, if I spend two more years in this role, 399 00:23:13,371 --> 00:23:15,690 what will it look like in two years time? 400 00:23:16,131 --> 00:23:19,930 What will I have learned that I haven't already learned? Maybe there's a lot? 401 00:23:20,020 --> 00:23:21,770 Maybe not much? 402 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:26,450 What will I have added to my experience 403 00:23:26,790 --> 00:23:28,290 to what will I have practiced? 404 00:23:28,910 --> 00:23:33,520 And if there's a lot of change or opportunity coming, then you may say, yeah, 405 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,480 I can see how the next two years will play out. And at the end of that time, 406 00:23:37,830 --> 00:23:41,880 what I will have had a chance to try or to experience or to do. 407 00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:44,680 On the other hand, I've had many people say, you know, 408 00:23:44,681 --> 00:23:46,400 another two years of the same rule, 409 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,800 I really won't have much more experience than now. 410 00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:53,760 And that's the first good tip to themselves that it's time to try something new. 411 00:23:54,430 --> 00:23:58,480 Sometimes the change is forced upon you. Like through mergers and acquisitions, 412 00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:01,840 and then you're in a new role you may be asked or you just be given, 413 00:24:02,340 --> 00:24:05,710 and this is your new role. And you're thinking, do I want to stay in it? 414 00:24:05,711 --> 00:24:07,230 Do I even want this new role? 415 00:24:08,110 --> 00:24:13,070 I had that once through when a major merger of the company went through and 416 00:24:13,071 --> 00:24:14,710 I was given a lovely title, 417 00:24:15,330 --> 00:24:18,310 but almost all of my staff was moved to other lines of business. 418 00:24:18,930 --> 00:24:23,150 So I was expected to do the CFO role without all of the normal tools or 419 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:29,180 people. And I had to do it through influence for the most part, apparently, 420 00:24:29,420 --> 00:24:32,500 but ultimately I decided, you know, 421 00:24:32,501 --> 00:24:37,220 can I learn something in this new role? And can I contribute? 422 00:24:37,860 --> 00:24:41,580 I boiled the situation down to those two questions. Can I learn? 423 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,740 And can I contribute? If so, 424 00:24:44,380 --> 00:24:48,850 I will give it an another 12 months and let me see how it unfolds. 425 00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:53,250 So it wasn't an open-ended, it wasn't decide right now, it was, 426 00:24:53,270 --> 00:24:56,530 if it met those two criteria for me, can I learn and can I contribute? 427 00:24:57,030 --> 00:24:59,450 I'd be willing to see how it played out. It actually, I did stay, 428 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:04,210 it played out beautifully, eventually moved to an America's and worldwide role. 429 00:25:04,550 --> 00:25:07,640 But in the moment crystallize your personal question is, 430 00:25:08,620 --> 00:25:12,760 and if you can achieve something in it, then, it's good to go for. And if not, 431 00:25:12,830 --> 00:25:17,440 then you move to a plan B and look for something else. And so, and David, 432 00:25:17,441 --> 00:25:19,160 with that, I think I'll turn it over to you. 433 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:24,280 It it's interesting as you were relaying that story, Lynda, 434 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,550 it reminded me of when we worked together. I was just wondering, 435 00:25:28,271 --> 00:25:30,630 was that about the same time that I was facing, 436 00:25:30,670 --> 00:25:34,470 or I was being taught to take a global role where you were losing me as part of 437 00:25:34,471 --> 00:25:36,110 that as well? Because I know we had , 438 00:25:36,111 --> 00:25:39,710 a conversation about that because I felt pulled, 439 00:25:39,780 --> 00:25:43,110 between staying with the local team, 440 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,150 which I absolutely loved working with as opposed to going into a global 441 00:25:47,300 --> 00:25:50,500 organization where the influence certainly would be more, 442 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,220 but I would have to reestablish all of the relationships. 443 00:25:53,221 --> 00:25:56,340 So I remember going through that at the time and you and I talking about it. 444 00:25:56,341 --> 00:25:57,460 So it's good segue. 445 00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:03,260 Yes. That was the time and lots of change and lots of personal self examination. 446 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,980 And then trying, you never really know, do you David, 447 00:26:06,981 --> 00:26:08,210 where the company is gonna go? 448 00:26:08,211 --> 00:26:13,130 All you can do is assess and then do a little bit of a leap of faith. 449 00:26:13,410 --> 00:26:16,370 And if it fits with some of what you feel you can learn. 450 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,250 Yeah, absolutely. And you are right. 451 00:26:19,270 --> 00:26:22,610 It ended up working out really well for both of us in very different ways. 452 00:26:22,750 --> 00:26:26,170 And here we are today doing our podcast together. I'm very much like Lynda, 453 00:26:26,270 --> 00:26:30,240 I'm a forward looking eye. I really do look ahead as well. 454 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,680 I probably do it slightly differently from Lynda. 455 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,880 I tend to do a little bit of a longer term approach. So yes, 456 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:37,520 I do look a year ahead, 457 00:26:37,940 --> 00:26:42,880 but I also look three to five years and more ahead as 458 00:26:42,881 --> 00:26:43,080 well, 459 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,880 because some of the changes that we might want in our life might take quite a 460 00:26:47,881 --> 00:26:49,280 while for them to materialize. 461 00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:53,080 So one of the techniques I use is actually a very cool technique that was 462 00:26:53,081 --> 00:26:54,640 created by Walt Disney himself. 463 00:26:55,180 --> 00:26:59,400 And he created it for his organization to help with creative thinking, 464 00:26:59,401 --> 00:27:01,640 forward looking, and just this idea of dreaming. 465 00:27:01,980 --> 00:27:03,630 And if you think about the organization, 466 00:27:03,770 --> 00:27:07,350 it definitely needed to thrive on creativity, given what they created, 467 00:27:07,351 --> 00:27:11,670 but effectively his model was morphed to 468 00:27:12,530 --> 00:27:15,190 use in business. And it's called the Disney strategy. 469 00:27:15,730 --> 00:27:17,950 And it's a three step strategy basically. And this works, 470 00:27:17,951 --> 00:27:19,710 whether you're talking about your professional life, 471 00:27:19,711 --> 00:27:23,300 whether you're talking about your personal life. And it's really saying, well, 472 00:27:23,301 --> 00:27:26,460 whether I'm at the beginning of my career, the middle of it, or the end, 473 00:27:26,461 --> 00:27:29,180 doesn't really matter because at the end, you're just going to a new chapter. 474 00:27:29,730 --> 00:27:31,620 It's just a whole new set of experiences, right? 475 00:27:31,621 --> 00:27:34,620 That still need a plan that still need an idea and an approach and a roadmap. 476 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,260 So basically the approach starts like this. 477 00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:41,100 We start by thinking through very vividly, what is it that we actually want? 478 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,810 You know, can I picture exactly what I want to achieve, 479 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,050 whether it's where you want to live, where you want to work, 480 00:27:48,051 --> 00:27:50,170 whether it's have your own business, work in a company, 481 00:27:50,750 --> 00:27:52,370 it doesn't really matter what it is. It, 482 00:27:52,550 --> 00:27:54,890 as long as you've got some level of passion for it, 483 00:27:55,070 --> 00:27:58,410 and that you can see very vividly how it's going to unfold. 484 00:27:58,411 --> 00:28:02,850 So you can imagine it happening and you can see yourself in different facets of 485 00:28:02,851 --> 00:28:05,680 it. That's what we refer to as the dream phase, right? 486 00:28:05,710 --> 00:28:10,000 It's the whole creative idea in that place we don't think about, is it possible? 487 00:28:10,270 --> 00:28:14,320 This doesn't even come into the realm of thinking everything is possible when we 488 00:28:14,321 --> 00:28:16,800 start talking about dreaming, right? So we go in with that mindset, 489 00:28:16,810 --> 00:28:19,480 which is great because you can effectively dream anything. 490 00:28:20,940 --> 00:28:24,400 The second stage that we go through then is a little bit more into reality, 491 00:28:24,550 --> 00:28:28,630 which is okay, I've got a dream. Wonderful, but now I need a plan. 492 00:28:28,870 --> 00:28:30,310 I need to actually make it happen. 493 00:28:30,810 --> 00:28:35,550 So then we move into this mindset of putting together a plan to make the dream 494 00:28:35,551 --> 00:28:36,910 come true. So in that phase, 495 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,750 we're not thinking about whether the dream is realistic, 496 00:28:39,751 --> 00:28:40,950 whether or not it's achievable. 497 00:28:41,450 --> 00:28:44,350 Of course it's achievable because now we're just about planning. 498 00:28:44,490 --> 00:28:48,700 So the plan is about achieving whatever the dream happens to be. 499 00:28:48,701 --> 00:28:51,660 And then when we've gone through the plan and we think the plan is fairly 500 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,140 robust, we then move into a third mindset, which is why it's a three step model. 501 00:28:56,141 --> 00:28:59,700 And that third mindset is all about critiquing. 502 00:28:59,701 --> 00:29:02,900 Now this is when we look at the plan and this is where as, 503 00:29:02,901 --> 00:29:06,810 accountants will be brilliant at this. We poke holes in the plan. 504 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,450 We find flaws in the plan and this we're very, very good at. 505 00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:13,210 So we are not again, trying to solve the problem. 506 00:29:13,211 --> 00:29:17,850 We're just trying to point out weaknesses, gaps, or issues that need addressing. 507 00:29:18,350 --> 00:29:21,610 And then effectively there's this back and forth process we go through where we 508 00:29:21,611 --> 00:29:25,570 change mindsets between planning and critiquing until we get it to the point 509 00:29:25,571 --> 00:29:30,440 where the critique can't find any more holes or flaws or risks in it, it says, 510 00:29:30,470 --> 00:29:32,000 okay, the plan is solid. 511 00:29:32,580 --> 00:29:36,160 And then effectively we can end up then executing on that plan. 512 00:29:36,860 --> 00:29:39,800 And you might say to me, well, have you actually ever used the plan? 513 00:29:39,860 --> 00:29:41,760 You talk about it, but have you ever done it? 514 00:29:41,761 --> 00:29:45,520 And the answer is absolutely when I first started my career. And again, 515 00:29:45,521 --> 00:29:48,400 I didn't realize it was called the Disney strategy back then. 516 00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:50,960 When I first started my career and I first looked at this, 517 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,760 I had in my mind a plan around what I wanted to do with my career. 518 00:29:56,020 --> 00:30:00,320 And I literally said, okay, from entry job over the next 10 years, 519 00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:01,830 what do I want to achieve? 520 00:30:02,010 --> 00:30:06,350 And I set out a concrete plan for myself around starting as an individual 521 00:30:06,351 --> 00:30:10,550 contributor, moving up to a team leader, then a supervisor, then a manager, 522 00:30:10,740 --> 00:30:13,550 then a director, you know, kind of the traditional path, if you will. 523 00:30:14,450 --> 00:30:18,870 And I narrowed it down to four companies. That's all I put in my plan now, 524 00:30:18,871 --> 00:30:20,670 in retrospect probably wasn't enough, 525 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,300 but at the time it seemed to work out quite well because one of the companies on 526 00:30:25,301 --> 00:30:26,134 that plan, 527 00:30:26,380 --> 00:30:30,140 I ended up joining and it's ultimately where Lynda and I ended up meeting. 528 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,580 And I went after that plan relentlessly, 529 00:30:33,700 --> 00:30:37,900 I used every lever available to me to make that plan happen and it did. 530 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,460 And ultimately it ended up leading to a career that's become, 531 00:30:41,890 --> 00:30:44,090 incredibly fulfilling and I've been able to do, as Lynda said, 532 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,410 lots of other things that have allowed me to actually tap into a passion, 533 00:30:48,460 --> 00:30:49,211 which I have, 534 00:30:49,211 --> 00:30:54,170 which is speaking and being able to share things with other people to help 535 00:30:54,171 --> 00:30:57,690 them in their careers. Because funnily enough, as I get a little bit older, 536 00:30:58,010 --> 00:31:00,050 I find that the more I can help others, 537 00:31:00,550 --> 00:31:03,320 the more fulfilling I find this experience. So, you know, 538 00:31:03,321 --> 00:31:06,800 when I think about my early career and you think about, it's all about title, 539 00:31:07,110 --> 00:31:10,640 it's all about money for a lot of people, not everybody clearly, 540 00:31:11,361 --> 00:31:14,640 but certainly it was for me when I was young. And then thinking through, 541 00:31:14,641 --> 00:31:16,680 as I got a little bit older thinking, you know what? 542 00:31:16,681 --> 00:31:19,200 Those things actually don't matter as much anymore. 543 00:31:19,201 --> 00:31:23,550 What matters to me is that I feel fulfilled and I feel a sense of purpose us. 544 00:31:23,551 --> 00:31:26,870 And ultimately, you know, am I living the kind of life that I want to be? 545 00:31:27,410 --> 00:31:29,470 So what's all that taught me then at the end? 546 00:31:29,471 --> 00:31:34,190 It's really taught me that ultimately every experience we go through, 547 00:31:34,210 --> 00:31:38,630 as Lynda said earlier, teaches us something. The key is to be open, 548 00:31:38,810 --> 00:31:40,830 to listening to what it teaches us, 549 00:31:41,050 --> 00:31:45,100 and making sure that we don't lose that lesson and that we embody that, 550 00:31:45,301 --> 00:31:46,740 in everything we do after. 551 00:31:48,890 --> 00:31:50,250 I think that's great advice, David. 552 00:31:50,510 --> 00:31:55,010 Being open and willing to listen to just about anything is 553 00:31:55,510 --> 00:32:00,490 huge for everybody. And so, as we kind of wrap up our conversation and, 554 00:32:01,051 --> 00:32:04,640 David, you've already talked about how you like looking into the future. And as, 555 00:32:04,660 --> 00:32:06,480 our listeners know, when we talk to David, 556 00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:08,520 he always likes to finish about talking about the future. 557 00:32:09,140 --> 00:32:13,200 So what's some parting advice do you have for our listeners on the skills they 558 00:32:13,201 --> 00:32:15,920 should be thinking about to future proof themselves? 559 00:32:15,921 --> 00:32:18,400 Because we have an everchanging industry, you know, 560 00:32:18,610 --> 00:32:21,760 COVID 19 is becoming COVID whatever, 561 00:32:22,220 --> 00:32:25,350 and there's so many different things happening for everybody in the world. 562 00:32:25,660 --> 00:32:27,110 What should we be doing right now? 563 00:32:27,111 --> 00:32:29,430 What should our listeners be doing as we look to the future? 564 00:32:31,020 --> 00:32:32,390 It's a great question. And you're right, Adam, 565 00:32:32,550 --> 00:32:36,390 I really do love finishing on a forward looking question. So yeah. 566 00:32:36,420 --> 00:32:39,720 What can accounting and finance professionals do? Well, 567 00:32:39,721 --> 00:32:42,360 there's a few things that we can do, right? In fact, we have many choices. 568 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:44,800 I think as Lynda said a little bit earlier, 569 00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:49,520 it's really embracing a willingness to take control of our choices, 570 00:32:49,521 --> 00:32:53,080 whether they're personal or professional, right? Because at the end of the day, 571 00:32:53,380 --> 00:32:57,520 we alone are in control of our lives. Yes, events happen around us, 572 00:32:57,900 --> 00:33:00,510 but how react to them is entirely within our control. 573 00:33:00,540 --> 00:33:04,670 What we learn from them is within our control. So I think if we own things, 574 00:33:05,170 --> 00:33:09,270 we plan for them, we execute them. And then we savor the successes, 575 00:33:09,290 --> 00:33:14,110 no matter how big or small they are. That's important again, you know, 576 00:33:14,271 --> 00:33:17,990 Lynda gave me some advice many, many years ago when I was doing far too much. 577 00:33:18,570 --> 00:33:20,580 And she said to me, one day she said, David, 578 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,580 do you celebrate these little things that you go through? 579 00:33:24,581 --> 00:33:28,860 And I sat and I thought about it and thought, you know what, no, I don't. 580 00:33:28,861 --> 00:33:30,260 I just go on to the next thing. 581 00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:33,900 So I think that's one thing that I've learned is really important because it 582 00:33:33,901 --> 00:33:38,180 also creates this sense of purpose and that we are not just going from one fire 583 00:33:38,181 --> 00:33:39,810 to the next. 584 00:33:39,870 --> 00:33:43,330 the other things I would say to our listeners are really think about learning 585 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,250 from the inside out. So really think about getting below the skin, 586 00:33:47,310 --> 00:33:49,930 so to speak and adapt our learning, 587 00:33:50,030 --> 00:33:52,850 to be able to leverage our own strengths, 588 00:33:52,990 --> 00:33:55,450 our own preferences and our own personal style. 589 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,570 What works for me doesn't necessarily work for everybody else. And that's okay. 590 00:34:00,260 --> 00:34:04,720 But it's about learning from other people to get different 591 00:34:04,721 --> 00:34:05,340 perspectives, 592 00:34:05,340 --> 00:34:10,280 to then figure out how do we embed and emulate what we wanna emulate and what 593 00:34:10,281 --> 00:34:14,000 we wanna model. So it's really learning it from that point of view, 594 00:34:14,001 --> 00:34:15,360 but doing it in our way. 595 00:34:15,700 --> 00:34:19,280 And that's why the inside-out learning model is so effective because we do 596 00:34:19,281 --> 00:34:21,710 customize it to how we are as individuals. 597 00:34:22,290 --> 00:34:24,950 And I think I would always say to have fun when learning, 598 00:34:25,090 --> 00:34:29,590 it makes it so much easier to assimilate learning and to retain it when we're 599 00:34:29,591 --> 00:34:31,230 having fun, when we're laughing about it. 600 00:34:31,620 --> 00:34:33,270 It's amazing when you laugh at a movie, 601 00:34:33,330 --> 00:34:37,830 you can actually recount the movie so much better than if you watch a very heavy 602 00:34:37,831 --> 00:34:39,870 movie and you think, oh, I need to, you know, 603 00:34:39,871 --> 00:34:43,220 that was a heavy movie within a day or so. You'll forget most of the movie, 604 00:34:43,650 --> 00:34:46,500 whereas if it was funny and it had you rolling around laughing, 605 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,220 you'll remember a lot of the movie, because again, it's quite relatable. 606 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,740 So I would say, because in truth, 607 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,220 we can't afford to wait and see what happens. 608 00:34:56,670 --> 00:35:01,100 We've got to start and be much more assertive in our roles and in our own 609 00:35:01,220 --> 00:35:02,770 learning and development. And as I mentioned, 610 00:35:02,771 --> 00:35:05,330 it's really about finding passion and purpose. 611 00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:07,770 And then it doesn't feel like work. 612 00:35:07,870 --> 00:35:11,290 The whole thing feels really enjoyable and it's great fun. 613 00:35:11,310 --> 00:35:12,890 And you meet great people along the way. 614 00:35:13,310 --> 00:35:15,370 So I would say those are probably my parting words. 615 00:35:15,790 --> 00:35:19,130 As I look forward to help individuals, Lynda, what are your thoughts. 616 00:35:20,740 --> 00:35:25,230 On top of that, and I agree with having fun and learning, every day, 617 00:35:25,250 --> 00:35:29,550 my suggestion to all of the listeners is invest 618 00:35:30,490 --> 00:35:33,550 in yourself every day, every day. 619 00:35:34,391 --> 00:35:39,240 If you think about, what you can learn and what you can do, 620 00:35:39,241 --> 00:35:40,800 it all comes from within and the, 621 00:35:40,801 --> 00:35:44,880 and the inside of David that you write about in the power of potential and you 622 00:35:44,881 --> 00:35:47,520 speak to. Think about it when you're on the airplane. 623 00:35:47,521 --> 00:35:50,080 Remember when you get on the airplane and you're giving the advice and you're 624 00:35:50,081 --> 00:35:54,760 buckling up, what do they say? They say, put your own mask on first, 625 00:35:54,761 --> 00:35:57,350 if you're in an emergency situation. 626 00:35:57,351 --> 00:36:02,030 And that's where the invest in yourself is one of the best things you can do, 627 00:36:02,031 --> 00:36:05,070 cuz we don't always know the future. We can look for trends. 628 00:36:05,210 --> 00:36:07,870 We can keep informed. Here's a really easy one. 629 00:36:07,870 --> 00:36:12,110 When I guest lecture to MBA programs that I share with them when they, 630 00:36:12,111 --> 00:36:15,350 when we first open a class and I ask them, 631 00:36:15,351 --> 00:36:19,860 what's the headline today in let's say it's a finance or accounting group like 632 00:36:19,861 --> 00:36:23,380 this, the audience, what's the headline in the business section? 633 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,540 And a lot of times they'll be spending thousands and thousands of dollars doing 634 00:36:28,541 --> 00:36:32,980 this degree. And they don't know what the headline in the newspaper is. 635 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,930 And this is the one easy, easy way to invest in yourself to spend. 636 00:36:37,950 --> 00:36:40,730 And now you don't have to subscribe to a print newspaper. 637 00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:43,890 You can listen to a podcast like Adam's doing with us today. 638 00:36:43,910 --> 00:36:47,970 You can go online and look at digital information. So there's no cost, 639 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,370 take 10 minutes, 640 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,170 find a headline that interests you and then say, 641 00:36:53,190 --> 00:36:55,410 how would I explain this to my neighbor? 642 00:36:55,590 --> 00:37:00,000 If I'm down in the lobby or if I'm speaking to, 643 00:37:00,420 --> 00:37:05,080 you know, my family at dinner tonight, what are the sound bytes of, 644 00:37:05,081 --> 00:37:08,880 this situation. This is the company, this is the issue. 645 00:37:08,881 --> 00:37:12,640 This is the impact. And here's what I think about it. What do you think? 646 00:37:12,641 --> 00:37:17,440 If you can take an idea and invest in yourself by learning and articulate 647 00:37:17,540 --> 00:37:19,550 it in a few sentences, 648 00:37:19,551 --> 00:37:24,270 you have just given yourself a gift you've invested in yourself and you are 649 00:37:24,271 --> 00:37:27,630 going to be well equipped. And Adam, to your question of, you know, 650 00:37:27,690 --> 00:37:30,990 for future proofing ourselves, 651 00:37:30,991 --> 00:37:34,670 I think the best way to future proof is to stay current. Stay curious. 652 00:37:37,060 --> 00:37:38,310 This has been Count Me In, 653 00:37:38,310 --> 00:37:43,020 IMA's podcast providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from 654 00:37:43,021 --> 00:37:45,780 the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard, 655 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,860 and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting and finance 656 00:37:48,970 --> 00:37:52,660 education, visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.