1 00:00:05,301 --> 00:00:08,227 Welcome to the hot dish, comfort food for rural America. 2 00:00:08,227 --> 00:00:09,671 I'm Heidi Heitkamp. 3 00:00:10,053 --> 00:00:11,918 You know, and I'm Joel Heitkamp. 4 00:00:11,918 --> 00:00:16,648 We've got a big show for you today with three fantastic guests. 5 00:00:17,133 --> 00:00:25,991 You're going to hear from Nathan Gonzalez, editor and publisher of Inside Elections about the midterm outlooks and the Texas election this past weekend. 6 00:00:25,991 --> 00:00:36,360 We also spoke with uh Iowa State Representative and one of my favorite people in the whole wide world, Adam Zabner, about the Iowa caucuses and rural voting turnout. 7 00:00:36,741 --> 00:00:43,927 We also have an incredible conversation with former DHS secretary and my good friend, because we were AGs together. 8 00:00:43,927 --> 00:00:51,259 Janet Napolitano about the ongoing disaster in Minnesota and what law enforcement professionals are saying about it. 9 00:00:52,975 --> 00:00:57,169 Lots to cover today, so let's get straight to it. 10 00:00:57,770 --> 00:01:02,895 We're joined first by Nathan Gonzalez, editor and publisher of Inside Elections. 11 00:01:02,895 --> 00:01:05,398 Nathan, good to have you on the hot dish. 12 00:01:05,398 --> 00:01:06,803 Yeah, thank you for having me. 13 00:01:06,803 --> 00:01:10,304 This is it's going to be a fun time for all involved. 14 00:01:10,709 --> 00:01:15,169 Now, Nathan, you're the guy everybody pokes to and says, what do you know? 15 00:01:15,169 --> 00:01:15,969 What are you hearing? 16 00:01:15,969 --> 00:01:16,809 What do you got? 17 00:01:16,809 --> 00:01:18,449 I mean, do you ever get sick of it? 18 00:01:18,449 --> 00:01:21,570 First off, that's a weird first question, but I got to ask you. 19 00:01:21,570 --> 00:01:24,991 Well, if I get sick of it, then I should probably be doing something else. 20 00:01:25,351 --> 00:01:30,133 If I'm not ready to talk or willing to talk about elections, I should be looking for a new line of work. 21 00:01:30,133 --> 00:01:31,893 So no, it's great. 22 00:01:32,053 --> 00:01:41,756 My younger colleague, Jacob Rubashkin, he uh doesn't really believe when I tell him that we have normal elections in this country because I think the last four or five cycles have 23 00:01:41,756 --> 00:01:44,197 had some level of abnormality to it. 24 00:01:44,197 --> 00:01:47,590 But this one, it looks like it could be a typical midterm election. 25 00:01:47,590 --> 00:01:56,636 Well, Nathan, you know, we were chatting a little bit before we started recording about the last time you uh spent some time with me and it was in 2012. 26 00:01:56,636 --> 00:02:06,323 And not a lot of people thought I would be putting the title of Senator in front of my name, but you were out here in North Dakota and you, have seen kind of what local 27 00:02:06,323 --> 00:02:08,585 politics, you know, how that matters. 28 00:02:08,585 --> 00:02:09,878 And you've seen. 29 00:02:09,878 --> 00:02:19,639 ah So tell us what you think about the current, I mean, your vision, having covered this for a long time, tell us what you think are the trend lines that everybody needs to 30 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:20,982 understand right now. 31 00:02:20,982 --> 00:02:24,725 Well, typically midterm elections go poorly for the president's party. 32 00:02:24,725 --> 00:02:29,849 Midterm elections are typically a referendum on the president and a referendum on the status quo. 33 00:02:29,849 --> 00:02:35,094 And right now, president Donald Trump has a 40-ish, 41 % job approval rating. 34 00:02:35,094 --> 00:02:40,258 A majority of Americans believe the country is on the wrong track versus headed in the right direction. 35 00:02:40,258 --> 00:02:43,681 And so that is a liability for the party in power. 36 00:02:43,681 --> 00:02:49,236 When voters don't like the status quo, they are primed for change and Republicans are in control of everything. 37 00:02:49,236 --> 00:02:50,164 So they are. 38 00:02:50,164 --> 00:02:52,336 at risk of losing some of that control. 39 00:02:52,336 --> 00:03:02,014 Now, the midterm trends are a little bit stronger in the House, meaning when you have all of these factors, it is more likely that the House, the President's party loses House 40 00:03:02,014 --> 00:03:02,604 seats. 41 00:03:02,604 --> 00:03:11,301 The Senate is a little bit wonky because it matters what the specific class of senators, what states are up in that particular cycle. 42 00:03:11,301 --> 00:03:14,722 So that's why sometimes you get a weird result of 43 00:03:14,722 --> 00:03:19,824 2018 where Democrats gained 41 seats in the house, but Republicans gained two Senate seats. 44 00:03:19,824 --> 00:03:25,367 so, uh, that is a little bit of what we're looking at. 45 00:03:25,367 --> 00:03:30,549 I mean, I know I didn't want to go to how many wounds can I, can I go into here? 46 00:03:30,549 --> 00:03:37,552 Uh, but it's, it is a, you know, this cycle Democrats have a much better chance of winning the house. 47 00:03:37,552 --> 00:03:40,093 The Senate is, is just more difficult. 48 00:03:40,093 --> 00:03:42,654 It's not out of reach, but it's going to take. 49 00:03:42,710 --> 00:03:50,322 winning in some Republican areas to win the Senate, whereas Democrats can win the House without winning in strong Republican areas. 50 00:03:50,322 --> 00:03:51,933 Joel, I'm just going to ask one question. 51 00:03:51,933 --> 00:04:00,705 I recently predicted to a group of business people that this thing could swing 30, 40 votes and everybody's like, no, no, it'll just be four or five. 52 00:04:00,705 --> 00:04:10,278 And I said, look, you're looking at all of the kind of off term elections, which was the 2025 election. 53 00:04:10,278 --> 00:04:14,310 You're looking at what's happening in Texas and you're looking at the trend lines. 54 00:04:14,310 --> 00:04:15,700 And let me tell you, 55 00:04:15,902 --> 00:04:20,094 I'd much rather be a Democrat right now, even in a rural county than a Republican. 56 00:04:20,094 --> 00:04:31,606 And so when you look at the swing, um talk a little bit about why it's not gonna be more than five or it's gonna be greater than 30. 57 00:04:31,706 --> 00:04:36,849 The only good news for Republicans right now is that the election is not today. 58 00:04:36,849 --> 00:04:37,550 Right. 59 00:04:37,550 --> 00:04:46,505 But what you're talking about, there has been a consistent Democratic overperformance over the last 10 months across the country and in a variety of seats. 60 00:04:46,505 --> 00:04:46,785 Right. 61 00:04:46,785 --> 00:04:49,987 Democrats overperforming in Democratic districts. 62 00:04:49,987 --> 00:04:50,297 Right. 63 00:04:50,297 --> 00:04:58,196 uh Or Democrats overperforming in very Republican areas, even if they don't lose, even if they don't win, they are still uh 64 00:04:58,196 --> 00:05:02,489 narrowing that gap and narrowing that margin and that is across that has been across the board. 65 00:05:02,489 --> 00:05:08,353 ah You know, how does this not end up being a good democratic year? 66 00:05:08,434 --> 00:05:19,082 I think the economy or at least voters faith in the economy would have to significantly improve where people are satisfied with the status quo and less likely to vote for change. 67 00:05:19,082 --> 00:05:23,958 But we every day are creeping closer and closer to the election and these 68 00:05:23,958 --> 00:05:28,191 voter sentiment just doesn't turn around in one day or one month. 69 00:05:28,191 --> 00:05:31,773 I mean, it's a gradual, it takes time. 70 00:05:31,773 --> 00:05:36,326 so Republicans are running out of time, even though we're sitting here at the beginning of February. 71 00:05:36,815 --> 00:05:44,951 So Nathan, when you look at this and hide before all of it, we never even talked about the Senate being in play. 72 00:05:44,951 --> 00:05:46,762 And I understand what you're getting at, Nathan. 73 00:05:46,762 --> 00:05:50,095 You know, it's numbers, it's everything involved in it. 74 00:05:50,095 --> 00:05:57,420 But the fact that we're even talking about the Senate being in play shows, Nathan, that what you're saying is right. 75 00:05:57,420 --> 00:06:01,143 How do you gauge it when you don't know who's on the ballot? 76 00:06:01,143 --> 00:06:04,365 I mean, they're fighting in Texas like a couple little kids. 77 00:06:04,990 --> 00:06:05,390 Yeah. 78 00:06:05,390 --> 00:06:07,450 mean, first fundamentals. 79 00:06:07,450 --> 00:06:17,070 I one of the dirty secret about elections and trying to project elections is that a good indicator of how a state or a district is going to vote in the future is how it's voted in 80 00:06:17,070 --> 00:06:17,750 the past. 81 00:06:17,750 --> 00:06:19,110 That is not a guarantee. 82 00:06:19,110 --> 00:06:23,270 There are exceptions, but that will lead you in that direction. 83 00:06:23,290 --> 00:06:26,910 but this cycle specifically with the Senate, it's a little bit. 84 00:06:26,910 --> 00:06:30,292 It's just challenging if we talk specifically in Susan. 85 00:06:30,292 --> 00:06:34,405 Republicans, sorry, Democrats have to defeat Susan Collins. 86 00:06:34,405 --> 00:06:45,213 And now you could say, she is a Democrat in a Republican in a Democratic state and she is an endangered species, but Democrats have never shown an ability to defeat her before. 87 00:06:45,213 --> 00:06:47,514 There's a competitive primary there. 88 00:06:47,514 --> 00:06:58,402 And then you're talking about Sherrod Brown needing to win in Ohio when he just lost in Ohio a year ago, or Democrats trying to win in Iowa or Texas or Alaska. 89 00:06:58,402 --> 00:07:03,345 I mean, you can see the path there, but Democrats almost need to run the table. 90 00:07:03,345 --> 00:07:10,440 And there's just not a lot of room for error, even though there are these kind of strong, the wind is at the Democrats' back. 91 00:07:11,523 --> 00:07:17,146 And I would throw Iowa in there, you know, not an incumbent, you know, uh North Carolina. 92 00:07:17,146 --> 00:07:29,871 So there are some places and when you, if you apply the margin, let's take half of the margin that you've seen in some of these uh near term, know, 2025, you know, those swings, 93 00:07:29,871 --> 00:07:31,812 share it only lost by five. 94 00:07:31,812 --> 00:07:38,206 You know, if enthusiasm for the Republican Party is diminished and Democrats, 95 00:07:38,206 --> 00:07:41,433 seem to be very enthusiastic right now to get out and vote. 96 00:07:41,433 --> 00:07:49,058 um I think that the Republicans will have headwinds in states where they didn't plan on having headwinds. 97 00:07:49,058 --> 00:07:58,918 One of the key questions that Republicans have not answered yet is how do you turn out the Trump coalition in elections and in races when Trump isn't on the ballot? 98 00:07:58,918 --> 00:08:01,078 And they had a lot of opportunities, right? 99 00:08:01,078 --> 00:08:10,558 Over in the 2025, the November races in Virginia, New Jersey, or the special elections, state legislative elections, Republicans have had the opportunity and they haven't been 100 00:08:10,558 --> 00:08:11,158 able to do it. 101 00:08:11,158 --> 00:08:12,978 And they always have an excuse. 102 00:08:12,978 --> 00:08:15,642 They can explain away, well, this race... 103 00:08:15,798 --> 00:08:22,201 We lost because of this or that, but when you look at it collectively, it shows that Republicans still have to solve that piece. 104 00:08:22,201 --> 00:08:31,365 How do you keep Republican turnout up, keep the coalition together when Trump isn't on the ballot and when Trump is making himself more unpopular with some of the policies that he 105 00:08:31,365 --> 00:08:33,576 has implemented in his first year. 106 00:08:33,689 --> 00:08:41,751 So how do you pull and how do you keep track with an administration affecting these Senate and House races? 107 00:08:41,751 --> 00:08:47,634 And clearly the Trump administration is affecting these races when it's like you're in a whirlwind. 108 00:08:47,634 --> 00:08:52,915 uh You know, for example, I live three hours from downtown Minneapolis. 109 00:08:53,056 --> 00:08:57,365 They are they are in a tornado there. 110 00:08:57,365 --> 00:09:03,559 And every day, uh Republicans that I know from Minnesota are getting more and more mad at the Trump administration. 111 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,030 They just they don't want to be on the front page anymore. 112 00:09:06,030 --> 00:09:11,053 And so how do you keep up with that when you do the research that you do? 113 00:09:11,159 --> 00:09:17,043 I'm glad we have a three hour segment here to talk about, to talk about polling and to solve polling. 114 00:09:17,043 --> 00:09:23,448 But, I, how we try to, know, we're not pollsters ourselves, but we try to digest as much polling as possible. 115 00:09:23,448 --> 00:09:33,615 And what that means is I want to see as many data points knowing that polling is, uh, is imprecise or it can be imperfect, but I still believe it's a valuable tool. 116 00:09:33,615 --> 00:09:38,612 But I want to see partisan polling, nonpartisan polling, private polling, public polling. 117 00:09:38,612 --> 00:09:40,934 Every college and university seems to have a poll. 118 00:09:40,934 --> 00:09:46,819 I want to see it all so that we can try to identify trends and notice outliers. 119 00:09:46,819 --> 00:09:50,442 And at this stage of the cycle, there isn't as much polling. 120 00:09:50,442 --> 00:09:52,033 You'll kind of get it here and there. 121 00:09:52,033 --> 00:09:59,420 But when we get into the final two, three, four months of the election, there's going to be candidates are polling. 122 00:09:59,420 --> 00:10:00,861 The party committees are polling. 123 00:10:00,861 --> 00:10:02,663 The super PACs are polling. 124 00:10:02,663 --> 00:10:04,704 Those colleges and universities are polling. 125 00:10:04,704 --> 00:10:06,976 And so there'll be a lot more data points. 126 00:10:06,976 --> 00:10:13,218 And I lose a lot of sleep at the end of each cycle about whether that polling is accurate. 127 00:10:13,218 --> 00:10:20,791 And what we have found is that in elections, when Trump is on the ballot, polling is a little more wonky. 128 00:10:20,791 --> 00:10:26,332 ah When he is not on the ballot, the polling has actually been pretty good. 129 00:10:26,853 --> 00:10:30,826 thank you for bringing up a wound inside of me, uh Joel. 130 00:10:31,476 --> 00:10:36,428 You know, I mean, let's talk about the MAGA coalition. 131 00:10:36,429 --> 00:10:42,131 A lot of uh yak yak and you know, I think for Democrats, it might be wishful thinking. 132 00:10:42,131 --> 00:10:49,095 I think for pundits, makes for good television or for good uh podcasts. 133 00:10:49,095 --> 00:10:52,376 But are there fractures? 134 00:10:52,376 --> 00:10:56,208 Are you seeing in the polling fractures in the Trump coalition? 135 00:10:56,327 --> 00:11:03,949 Well, when you look demographically, he is losing popularity or losing ground with younger voters, losing ground with Hispanic voters. 136 00:11:03,949 --> 00:11:08,640 When you look on specific issues, he is underwater or upside down. 137 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,611 You all know, because you're not completely normal. 138 00:11:10,611 --> 00:11:19,383 You know that that means when a politician's negative rating is higher than their positive rating, he's underwater on all major issues, including immigration and deportation, but 139 00:11:19,383 --> 00:11:21,213 also inflation and cost of living. 140 00:11:21,213 --> 00:11:24,618 And that's different than his first term when he had 141 00:11:24,618 --> 00:11:33,145 I'd say a mediocre overall job rating, but he would still get positive reviews on the economy or voters trusted him more than Democrats on the economy. 142 00:11:33,145 --> 00:11:34,696 And that is not the case right now. 143 00:11:34,696 --> 00:11:37,529 He's, uh he's under underwater. 144 00:11:37,529 --> 00:11:43,654 I hear when Republicans say, well, he's just fulfilling promises or he's just doing what he said he was going to do. 145 00:11:43,654 --> 00:11:52,571 And there's a disconnect right now where either voters don't like what he's doing, or that's not what they wanted him to do when they voted in 2024, or they're just, haven't 146 00:11:52,571 --> 00:11:54,342 seen the results of it yet. 147 00:11:54,496 --> 00:11:56,618 Republicans have to close that gap. 148 00:11:57,547 --> 00:12:09,156 And I don't mean to open up any old wounds, but I'm to go back to the to the polling, because to me, as a former state legislature legislator who we were only one shy of the 149 00:12:09,156 --> 00:12:12,729 majority when I was in in North Dakota, pretty red state. 150 00:12:12,729 --> 00:12:20,335 uh When you look at polling, there is no polling better than elections. 151 00:12:20,335 --> 00:12:23,197 And in Texas, they just had one. 152 00:12:23,492 --> 00:12:31,120 And in Texas, they were in a pretty red district, not a pretty red district, a red district, and the Democrat won. 153 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,243 How important is that? 154 00:12:33,243 --> 00:12:38,902 Are these legislative races, Nathan, to tell you information you need? 155 00:12:38,902 --> 00:12:41,187 I think, yeah. 156 00:12:41,187 --> 00:12:44,200 Democrat one and not by a little bit. 157 00:12:44,582 --> 00:12:45,033 Yeah. 158 00:12:45,033 --> 00:12:46,153 kicked ass. 159 00:12:46,348 --> 00:12:54,956 or or you take, know, the the in December, the the special election in the in Tennessee, seventh congressional district where Trump won by 22 and the Republican won by nine. 160 00:12:54,956 --> 00:12:55,296 Right. 161 00:12:55,296 --> 00:12:58,399 I think collectively it is an important data point. 162 00:12:58,399 --> 00:13:05,135 I wouldn't want and I know you want, you know, take one draw broad conclusions based on one state Senate seat in Texas. 163 00:13:05,135 --> 00:13:06,075 But that's not what we're doing. 164 00:13:06,075 --> 00:13:11,383 We're looking collectively across legislative races, congressional races, gubernatorial races. 165 00:13:11,383 --> 00:13:14,616 There were some commissioner races in Georgia in November. 166 00:13:14,616 --> 00:13:18,728 So when you look at it, all of that is pointing in one direction. 167 00:13:19,570 --> 00:13:22,322 polling is, yeah, because polling is imprecise. 168 00:13:22,322 --> 00:13:27,996 You know, back in 2012, which was a race, I think that everyone on the podcast wants to remember. 169 00:13:27,996 --> 00:13:36,663 know, I think a lot of races, a lot of polls showed that, know, Heidi, that you weren't going to finish ahead and you ended up, you, and you won that race. 170 00:13:36,663 --> 00:13:40,636 And so there are exceptions, but yeah. 171 00:13:43,697 --> 00:13:46,039 Every one of those was a relative. 172 00:13:47,121 --> 00:13:51,728 In fairness to Hyde, she was climbing an uphill battle and she still won that. 173 00:13:51,728 --> 00:13:52,694 uh 174 00:13:52,694 --> 00:13:58,036 Well, but just to put a point on it, Barack Obama lost the race by over 20 points. 175 00:13:58,036 --> 00:14:02,198 So I'm just saying, yeah, in our state. 176 00:14:02,438 --> 00:14:19,948 So um the one thing that I wanna ask about, and maybe it's just too granular, but do you see any shifts or changes in voting patterns in rural and, you know? 177 00:14:19,948 --> 00:14:23,655 in rural counties, in places like we live. 178 00:14:23,734 --> 00:14:33,863 Yeah, I don't know if I've seen enough data, you know, seen enough data points to make uh that, to make a broad conclusion on that. 179 00:14:33,863 --> 00:14:38,246 So I want to make sure that I'm coming armed with the right information. 180 00:14:38,246 --> 00:14:47,424 But I think there is going to have to be a transition that will take time, meaning that the Trump coalition, people who voted for Trump, they're not instantly going to vote for 181 00:14:47,424 --> 00:14:48,075 Democrats. 182 00:14:48,075 --> 00:14:51,917 But if they don't vote at all or don't show up, then that 183 00:14:51,917 --> 00:15:00,214 could make a difference in elections and make a difference in the em overall demographic and the makeup of the electorate. 184 00:15:00,214 --> 00:15:08,233 Because as Americans, we don't, at least most Americans don't admit that they did something wrong very easily, right? 185 00:15:08,233 --> 00:15:09,761 We don't admit that we made mistakes. 186 00:15:09,761 --> 00:15:17,107 And so for a Trump voter right now to say, I'm voting with Democrats, is admitting that you may have made a mistake 12 months ago. 187 00:15:17,107 --> 00:15:21,620 And so I think the key is the turnout is a turnout issue. 188 00:15:21,655 --> 00:15:24,741 which could impact the margins in rural areas. 189 00:15:25,041 --> 00:15:34,129 I would suggest uh everybody go to that Saturday Night Live video that's gone viral to show how hard it can be to admit you're wrong. 190 00:15:34,129 --> 00:15:36,892 uh It's definitely worth your time. 191 00:15:36,892 --> 00:15:48,482 I want to talk about issues uh for just a second, Nathan, because as a talk show host in the Upper Midwest, I get hit all the time uh from my red audience, which is my bigger 192 00:15:48,482 --> 00:15:51,945 audience, about how I'm trying to take their guns away. 193 00:15:52,055 --> 00:15:53,718 All I'm going to do is take their guns away. 194 00:15:53,718 --> 00:15:57,253 You know, I as a Democrat, my party, you're going to take their guns away. 195 00:15:57,495 --> 00:16:02,303 It sure seems to me that the Republican Party has stepped on it when it comes to that. 196 00:16:02,303 --> 00:16:05,969 And I don't know how much issues like that way. 197 00:16:06,376 --> 00:16:09,848 Yeah, I, you know, and there's less specific polling on this. 198 00:16:09,848 --> 00:16:15,410 It's more of a gut instinct as someone who's been watching politics for a while now. 199 00:16:15,891 --> 00:16:25,466 I feel like we are so partisan that the country, most people are so partisan that there's always a justification to not go to the other side or not vote for the other side. 200 00:16:25,466 --> 00:16:30,172 Or there's a thinking of, it would be worse if the other party was in charge. 201 00:16:30,172 --> 00:16:36,605 And, or you always have a reason to explain away why your party is doing something that you don't agree with. 202 00:16:36,605 --> 00:16:42,607 And right now for a majority of the Republican party, Trump can do no wrong. 203 00:16:42,607 --> 00:16:47,509 That he, that they are convinced that he is an outsider. 204 00:16:47,509 --> 00:16:48,730 He's not a politician. 205 00:16:48,730 --> 00:16:51,161 He's got the country's best interests at heart. 206 00:16:51,161 --> 00:16:57,634 And so whatever he's doing, even if they don't agree or don't understand it, it must be part of some bigger uh effort. 207 00:16:57,634 --> 00:16:58,732 Or it's just that... 208 00:16:58,732 --> 00:17:02,540 Joe Biden would have been worse or Kamala Harris would have been worse or whatever. 209 00:17:02,540 --> 00:17:06,249 There's that, I think, dynamic going on. 210 00:17:06,249 --> 00:17:14,642 Yeah, I think there's, you know, if you think about people changing their voting patterns, there's different stages of grief, right? 211 00:17:14,902 --> 00:17:21,925 And I will tell you in rural America, and Joel can agree or disagree, that we're at the disappointment stage. 212 00:17:21,925 --> 00:17:33,949 um You know, we're disappointed that he seems to be focused on international when we wanted America first, we're disappointed that his tariffs have cost us markets, we're 213 00:17:33,949 --> 00:17:35,478 disappointed that 214 00:17:35,478 --> 00:17:38,861 m You know, he tore down the East Wing. 215 00:17:38,861 --> 00:17:51,249 We're disappointed that he seems to want his name on every and so I think even folks who have been not hardcore MAGA, but even folks who've been very supportive of the president, 216 00:17:51,249 --> 00:17:53,911 I think they're starting to feel disappointment. 217 00:17:53,911 --> 00:18:03,561 And that's the beginning of either low turnout for the MAGA base or let's give the other guy uh a chance or the other woman a chance. 218 00:18:03,561 --> 00:18:09,184 And Nathan, I'm going to add one other thing, because I've always believed what you said earlier, that this is about the economy. 219 00:18:09,184 --> 00:18:12,246 It's all about Heidi brought up commodity prices. 220 00:18:12,246 --> 00:18:17,369 My guys aren't getting crap when it comes to corn and soybeans and disappointed. 221 00:18:17,369 --> 00:18:19,609 I think it might even be a little bit stronger. 222 00:18:19,609 --> 00:18:21,211 But I will tell you this. 223 00:18:21,532 --> 00:18:22,762 Everybody's got a daughter. 224 00:18:22,762 --> 00:18:25,214 Everybody in my case has got granddaughters. 225 00:18:25,214 --> 00:18:30,136 And, you know, there's a reason that these Epstein files matter. 226 00:18:30,156 --> 00:18:31,637 They matter a lot. 227 00:18:31,685 --> 00:18:36,325 And so that's where, you know, Hyde said I can disagree. 228 00:18:36,325 --> 00:18:41,384 If if I bring up Epstein on my show, uh people get ticked off. 229 00:18:41,384 --> 00:18:49,181 And what I what I don't get, Nathan, is I don't get the typical people calling in that will support him no matter what. 230 00:18:50,540 --> 00:18:50,860 Yeah. 231 00:18:50,860 --> 00:19:00,657 And the reason why the Epstein issue won't go away is because it has bipartisan no concern or there are people there are Republicans on the Hill who want to know more want more 232 00:19:00,657 --> 00:19:12,915 files released because they have promised their voters this and so it's is harder for the White House to just push it away or explain it away when it has bipartisan there's a 233 00:19:12,915 --> 00:19:18,875 bipartisan consensus that more needs to be known about this and more people need to be held held accountable. 234 00:19:18,875 --> 00:19:28,560 And I would say the more people say nothing to see here, it's kind of like he's saying on the economy that the affordability is a hoax when people are living it every day. 235 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:33,122 Nothing to see here, nothing to see here, and then there's always something to see here. 236 00:19:33,423 --> 00:19:37,485 And so it goes to some credibility as well. 237 00:19:38,946 --> 00:19:47,430 the one thing that I would tell you is that I'm seeing more Democrats in areas that are red, willing to go to the coffee shop and 238 00:19:47,926 --> 00:19:49,606 kind of mix it up. 239 00:19:49,606 --> 00:19:51,585 so, yeah. 240 00:19:51,585 --> 00:19:53,268 you know, normally that was a problem. 241 00:19:53,268 --> 00:19:58,436 So Nathan, two more questions for me and then I'll let Heidi close this thing out. 242 00:19:58,436 --> 00:20:01,440 uh You. 243 00:20:01,982 --> 00:20:04,465 Do the Democrats win the House? 244 00:20:06,546 --> 00:20:09,657 It is more likely than not the Democrats win the House. 245 00:20:09,657 --> 00:20:10,647 That's not a definitive. 246 00:20:10,647 --> 00:20:17,189 I mean, it would take it would take a lot, I think, to change because Democrats need a net gain of three seats, three seats. 247 00:20:17,189 --> 00:20:20,440 They don't there doesn't even need to be a way for Democrats to win the House. 248 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:21,200 I the. 249 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:27,492 oh I should be better prepared for this uh answer. 250 00:20:28,373 --> 00:20:33,747 Yes, yes, I'm a I'm a Pacific Northwest kid. 251 00:20:33,747 --> 00:20:37,182 because the guy throwing the ball used to wear a purple jersey. 252 00:20:37,182 --> 00:20:40,345 eh 253 00:20:40,345 --> 00:20:41,866 so I'm okay with it. 254 00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:44,130 Yes. 255 00:20:44,130 --> 00:20:46,813 uh 256 00:20:47,048 --> 00:20:50,190 I'll say this on the Senate. 257 00:20:50,190 --> 00:20:54,508 Right now, I think Democrats might come up one short, meaning that they get to 50. 258 00:20:54,508 --> 00:21:00,719 And that is that there's still a lot of room for one of these races that need to happen to get wonky, right? 259 00:21:00,719 --> 00:21:03,802 The main primary and defeating Susan Collins. 260 00:21:03,802 --> 00:21:05,533 Maybe she pulls it out. 261 00:21:05,533 --> 00:21:07,075 Ohio. 262 00:21:07,075 --> 00:21:08,747 she pulls out of the race, Nathan. 263 00:21:08,747 --> 00:21:11,867 Yeah, she still has not officially declared. 264 00:21:11,867 --> 00:21:14,472 We've been led to believe she's running, but she is, you're right. 265 00:21:14,472 --> 00:21:16,034 She still has not officially declared. 266 00:21:16,034 --> 00:21:22,883 It's just Democrats almost have to run the table and getting into some red, you know, Alaska, Ohio, Iowa, Texas. 267 00:21:22,883 --> 00:21:26,863 I mean, they're going to have to win at least two of those four seats. 268 00:21:26,863 --> 00:21:32,557 so, uh, I'm open to Democrats can win the Senate right now sitting here today. 269 00:21:32,557 --> 00:21:35,270 I think they might be one short. 270 00:21:35,985 --> 00:21:42,667 OK, one thing to add on the Susan Collins thing though, Heidi and uh Nathan, there's a guy up there running for Congress. 271 00:21:42,667 --> 00:21:49,149 He's running to run for Congress as a Democrat, which he's always been a Democrat, but his name is Matt Dunlop and he's a friend. 272 00:21:49,149 --> 00:21:59,012 ah made we became friends in the legislature, uh but Matt has consistently told me nobody beats Susan Collins. 273 00:21:59,012 --> 00:22:02,143 Everybody that counts Susan Collins out is wrong. 274 00:22:02,217 --> 00:22:05,499 and you don't understand the strength of her in Maine. 275 00:22:05,499 --> 00:22:09,652 I asked him the other day what I just asked you only I put it down to one race. 276 00:22:09,652 --> 00:22:12,044 said is Susan Collins gonna win this race? 277 00:22:12,044 --> 00:22:15,746 And he said she's either gonna pull out or lose. 278 00:22:15,847 --> 00:22:18,168 And he's never said that before ever, Hyde. 279 00:22:18,168 --> 00:22:19,689 Never said that before. 280 00:22:19,859 --> 00:22:20,220 yeah. 281 00:22:20,220 --> 00:22:24,973 Well, Nathan, I hope you'll come back when you get more data points and we can talk about it. 282 00:22:24,973 --> 00:22:36,383 And if we can ask a special favor, which is pay attention to that demographic that we represent, that we care about, and that's rural America and what trends you're seeing 283 00:22:36,383 --> 00:22:36,653 there. 284 00:22:36,653 --> 00:22:38,242 And we'd love to have you back. 285 00:22:38,242 --> 00:22:41,242 Absolutely, I'll come back even if I'm even if I might be wrong. 286 00:22:41,242 --> 00:22:43,155 I'll face that I'll face the music 287 00:22:43,155 --> 00:22:51,213 I like you, I read you, I appreciate you, but if you ever mention Sam Darnold again, man... 288 00:22:51,586 --> 00:22:53,469 Well, it's tough depending on how this game turns out. 289 00:22:53,469 --> 00:22:57,215 There might be a lot of Sam Darnold in all of my remarks. 290 00:22:57,215 --> 00:22:57,699 FAC 291 00:22:57,699 --> 00:23:02,677 five interceptions in the first half, Joel, you might wanna not care that much. 292 00:23:02,677 --> 00:23:04,766 Nathan, thanks for coming on the hot dish, man. 293 00:23:04,766 --> 00:23:05,888 Appreciate it. 294 00:23:06,387 --> 00:23:06,959 Bye bye. 295 00:23:09,758 --> 00:23:13,951 we're now joined by Adam Zabner, uh Iowa State Representative. 296 00:23:13,951 --> 00:23:16,353 uh Thanks so much for joining us. 297 00:23:17,124 --> 00:23:23,087 And Adam, tell us about what the experience was on Monday at the Iowa caucuses. 298 00:23:23,615 --> 00:23:25,355 Yeah, thank you all so much for having me. 299 00:23:25,355 --> 00:23:27,716 It's great to be here with you, Joel and Heidi. 300 00:23:28,036 --> 00:23:32,497 You know, we had our precinct caucuses in Iowa last night. 301 00:23:32,497 --> 00:23:37,499 ah My caucus in Iowa City had a really strong turnout. 302 00:23:37,499 --> 00:23:48,082 I think there was a lot of enthusiasm and Democrats here in Iowa are feeling really good, probably for the first time in a while. 303 00:23:48,082 --> 00:23:50,563 ah It's been since the 60s. 304 00:23:50,563 --> 00:23:52,021 We have a year where 305 00:23:52,021 --> 00:23:55,773 There's an open governor's race and an open US Senate seat. 306 00:23:56,133 --> 00:24:00,516 We have really great candidates running in both those races. 307 00:24:00,516 --> 00:24:12,288 A lot of enthusiasm about Rob Sand and the idea of ending uh the single party control in state government here in Iowa, which has been in place since 2017. 308 00:24:12,288 --> 00:24:17,170 Heard a lot about also the first district congressional race in Iowa. 309 00:24:17,170 --> 00:24:20,396 uh My district faces a rematch. 310 00:24:20,396 --> 00:24:29,844 for the third time between Marynette Miller Meeks, who won by just under 700 votes last time, and Christina Bohannon, my predecessor. 311 00:24:29,844 --> 00:24:36,770 That race is looking to be one of the most competitive anywhere in the country. 312 00:24:36,770 --> 00:24:49,450 you know, folks are really angry with the direction of the Trump administration, with what's going on in Minnesota, just a couple of hours from where I live. 313 00:24:49,696 --> 00:24:56,280 The farm economy is struggling here in Iowa. 314 00:24:56,641 --> 00:25:00,644 We've seen thousands of people laid off at John Deere. 315 00:25:00,644 --> 00:25:06,828 uh Manufacturing that goes with agriculture is also really struggling. 316 00:25:06,828 --> 00:25:18,836 Hearing from lot of farmers, small business owners about the end of those ACA subsidies and people getting letters saying their premiums might double or triple or more. 317 00:25:18,878 --> 00:25:28,611 And so there's a lot of frustration, there's a lot of fear, but I also think there's a lot of enthusiasm here in Iowa about the coming midterm elections and the opportunity for 318 00:25:28,611 --> 00:25:29,144 change. 319 00:25:29,255 --> 00:25:31,944 And have you heard anything about the real turnout? 320 00:25:31,944 --> 00:25:34,291 Adam, we're kind of curious about that, obviously. 321 00:25:34,627 --> 00:25:36,849 Yeah, I heard that turnout was good. 322 00:25:36,849 --> 00:25:39,721 It's never huge for these midterm caucuses. 323 00:25:39,721 --> 00:25:41,562 It's mostly party business. 324 00:25:41,562 --> 00:25:45,695 It's sort of the most involved activists that show up. 325 00:25:45,715 --> 00:25:53,740 But the bigger sign for me is just the frustration we're hearing around the state. 326 00:25:53,941 --> 00:26:02,745 And we are seeing folks line up to run for state offices in seats that haven't been contested in 327 00:26:02,745 --> 00:26:04,756 quite a long time in rural Iowa. 328 00:26:04,756 --> 00:26:13,623 um State Auditor Rob Sand, he's already done 100 town halls ah in all of Iowa's county seats. 329 00:26:13,643 --> 00:26:21,248 And in a lot of the rural areas, he's getting bigger turnout than Randy Feenstra, who will likely be the Republican nominee. 330 00:26:21,349 --> 00:26:29,835 People are showing up, Republicans, independents, saying we need some kind of change, and they're open at least to listening. 331 00:26:29,849 --> 00:26:32,581 to Rob Sand's message, and so that's a really good sign for us. 332 00:26:32,581 --> 00:26:41,638 Well, and Adam, it seems like the um caucuses drew a lot of attention from independents who came to the Democratic caucuses. 333 00:26:41,638 --> 00:26:42,661 Tell us about that. 334 00:26:42,999 --> 00:26:44,260 Yeah, absolutely. 335 00:26:44,260 --> 00:26:46,261 And I think there's a lot of issues. 336 00:26:46,261 --> 00:26:58,069 mean, the farm economy last summer, I did a tour of rural hospitals across the state that are at risk of closure under the big, beautiful bill in small towns like Sheridan, Iowa, 337 00:26:58,069 --> 00:27:04,154 Burlington, Iowa, Muscatine, Iowa, Newton, where they recently lost their birthing center. 338 00:27:04,154 --> 00:27:06,275 You can't give birth there anymore. 339 00:27:06,295 --> 00:27:09,678 And, you know, these are not, it's not a partisan issue. 340 00:27:09,678 --> 00:27:12,149 If your community loses its hospital. 341 00:27:12,255 --> 00:27:14,057 It's a huge challenge. 342 00:27:14,057 --> 00:27:21,163 I asked a woman in Newton, what does it mean to you that women can't give birth in Jasper County anymore? 343 00:27:21,163 --> 00:27:23,004 She said, women are giving birth. 344 00:27:23,004 --> 00:27:28,669 It's just that it's the sheriff delivering the baby on the side of the road on the way to the nearest hospital. 345 00:27:28,669 --> 00:27:37,156 And so folks are really feeling the impact already of uh President Trump and congressional Republicans policies. 346 00:27:37,156 --> 00:27:41,429 They're feeling the impact of nine years of a Republican trifecta in Iowa. 347 00:27:41,463 --> 00:27:46,609 And I think there's some openness to at least listening and trying something different. 348 00:27:46,824 --> 00:27:48,015 Thanks so much, Adam. 349 00:27:48,015 --> 00:27:55,343 And we just need to mention that Adam was once upon a time an intern for the One Country Project. 350 00:27:55,343 --> 00:27:57,505 We watch you with great enthusiasm. 351 00:27:57,505 --> 00:28:03,010 We know you're going to be an incredible leader for your district, but also for Iowa in the future. 352 00:28:03,055 --> 00:28:03,794 Thanks Adam. 353 00:28:03,794 --> 00:28:04,963 Yeah, thanks so much for having me. 354 00:28:08,008 --> 00:28:13,654 I am so excited to introduce you to a very good friend of mine, Janet Napolitano. 355 00:28:13,654 --> 00:28:20,118 Being a friend of Heidi's is not the most important title that she's ever had, the most important title. 356 00:28:20,118 --> 00:28:25,301 She was the longest serving secretary of the Department of Homeland Security. 357 00:28:25,301 --> 00:28:30,444 And I worked with her when I was in the Senate and she was Barack Obama's secretary. 358 00:28:30,444 --> 00:28:31,845 But she also 359 00:28:31,985 --> 00:28:33,236 has a broad experience. 360 00:28:33,236 --> 00:28:44,358 How we got to be great friends is uh she was Arizona's attorney general, then we were attorneys general together, and she also was the governor of the great state of uh 361 00:28:44,358 --> 00:28:45,099 Arizona. 362 00:28:45,098 --> 00:28:57,226 And so before we get into it, Janet, I know that so many people are hesitant, you know, from former presidents on down to criticize anyone coming into the new administration. 363 00:28:57,226 --> 00:29:08,412 And so that's why I was really curious about the interview that you recently did with Jonathan Martin on Politico, which was really very candid about your feelings about what's 364 00:29:08,412 --> 00:29:09,853 happening right now. 365 00:29:09,901 --> 00:29:12,416 within the agency, but also in Minneapolis. 366 00:29:12,416 --> 00:29:16,293 Can you tell me why you decided to take that step? 367 00:29:16,688 --> 00:29:20,331 Well, you're right, Heidi. 368 00:29:20,331 --> 00:29:33,490 Former secretaries uh recognize, perhaps more than anyone, the difficulties of the job, the fact that uh those in the role have uh possession of different facts or other things 369 00:29:33,490 --> 00:29:41,386 that you may not know once you're out of office, um and want to be uh respectful of that. 370 00:29:41,386 --> 00:29:44,488 But in watching uh the 371 00:29:44,556 --> 00:29:54,392 operations of the Department of Homeland Security over the last year, but in particular what was going on with ICE and Border Patrol on these so-called 372 00:29:54,412 --> 00:29:59,757 mass deportation sweeps and surges into communities in the United States. 373 00:29:59,757 --> 00:30:06,102 And then to have uh two fatal shootings in Minneapolis. 374 00:30:06,102 --> 00:30:11,607 And then to hear the rhetoric coming out of not only the secretary's office, but the White House. 375 00:30:11,607 --> 00:30:13,609 I just thought enough is enough. 376 00:30:13,609 --> 00:30:22,966 And we need to have some practical experience-based uh language added to the public discourse about what happened here. 377 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,553 You know, let me ask you this, Madam Secretary. 378 00:30:27,553 --> 00:30:36,580 You know, sitting here, you know, in a conversation with two former attorney generals, one of which held the very hats Heidi talked about. 379 00:30:36,580 --> 00:30:46,759 But what's interesting to me is that you say enough is enough that that the way they're doing this is completely wrong and it's cost lives. 380 00:30:46,759 --> 00:30:47,449 I get that. 381 00:30:47,449 --> 00:30:53,394 But you also were in a position in your life when you could have brought charges. 382 00:30:53,668 --> 00:30:57,732 Would you bring charges if that were the case today? 383 00:30:57,902 --> 00:31:03,976 I certainly would lead an independent, fair, open and transparent investigation. 384 00:31:03,976 --> 00:31:11,261 I certainly would put the uh agents involved on immediate leave while that investigation was pending. 385 00:31:11,261 --> 00:31:18,946 And I certainly would coordinate and work with state and local prosecutors and law enforcement during the course of that investigation. 386 00:31:18,946 --> 00:31:22,748 How the investigation comes out, I don't want to prejudge. 387 00:31:22,857 --> 00:31:32,252 I think we can all see the videos for ourselves and have reached our own tentative conclusions, but that's why you do investigations to make sure that you're reaching 388 00:31:32,252 --> 00:31:35,386 accurate and provable um accusations. 389 00:31:35,955 --> 00:31:46,874 I think Janet, a lot of people now have an image of the men and women who serve oh in border patrol and the men and women who serve in ICE. 390 00:31:46,874 --> 00:31:50,857 And it's being defined by what's happening in Minnesota. 391 00:31:50,857 --> 00:32:00,625 What would you say to those, to the people in the public who basically are drawing really some pretty broad conclusions about... 392 00:32:00,694 --> 00:32:05,485 the men and women of uh law enforcement within the Department of Homeland Security. 393 00:32:05,485 --> 00:32:08,944 uh 394 00:32:08,944 --> 00:32:17,778 Well, I would say that this, um you know, I'm still to date the longest serving Secretary of Homeland Security. 395 00:32:17,778 --> 00:32:19,118 was there almost five years. 396 00:32:19,118 --> 00:32:24,671 And so both the Border Patrol and ICE ultimately reported up to me. 397 00:32:25,071 --> 00:32:29,273 I worked with many of the agents and I worked with their supervisors. 398 00:32:29,273 --> 00:32:31,534 We did things a bit differently. 399 00:32:31,534 --> 00:32:36,410 We really focused our deportation work on uh 400 00:32:36,410 --> 00:32:42,992 those we found right at the border before they had had a chance to resettle in the United States. 401 00:32:43,132 --> 00:32:51,436 um And then those who were already in the United States who had committed other criminal violations of a serious nature. 402 00:32:51,656 --> 00:32:54,457 And that was the kind of combination that we did. 403 00:32:54,457 --> 00:33:03,481 It actually resulted in President Obama being nicknamed the Deporter-in-Chief, much to his chagrin, I think, but it was effective. 404 00:33:03,962 --> 00:33:13,406 And we insisted that our agents abide by the high requirements and standards of any law enforcement officer, particularly of federal law enforcement. 405 00:33:13,406 --> 00:33:14,467 officer. 406 00:33:14,467 --> 00:33:28,252 And so when bad things happened and sometimes bad things did happen, we immediately, as I said earlier to Joel, we put agents on leave, we um instituted IG investigations and the 407 00:33:28,252 --> 00:33:34,374 like so that if sanctions were appropriate, those sanctions were imposed. 408 00:33:34,374 --> 00:33:40,226 If policy needed to be changed, if practice needed to be changed, we could undertake that as well. 409 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:54,911 Well, going back to, know, Heidi's concern about how the the agents are being represented uh to the general public who looks at this, who sees this and basically sees individuals 410 00:33:54,911 --> 00:33:57,292 that instantly are. 411 00:33:57,292 --> 00:34:00,004 hold no responsibility for their actions. 412 00:34:00,124 --> 00:34:05,729 What do you see when you see masked uh men? 413 00:34:05,729 --> 00:34:18,239 When you see, and up till now, and I'm still waiting to see if her word means anything with uh Christine Ohm, but when you see men going through the streets of Minneapolis and 414 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,801 many other cities uh with masks on, 415 00:34:22,398 --> 00:34:24,541 Where is the accountability? 416 00:34:24,541 --> 00:34:29,036 Why would the average person respect that ICE agent? 417 00:34:29,988 --> 00:34:35,731 Yeah, so I think what we're actually seeing begins with a failure of leadership. 418 00:34:35,731 --> 00:34:41,634 Field agents on the ground, take their guidance from those who supervise them. 419 00:34:41,634 --> 00:34:45,416 Their immediate supervisors and then supervisors up the chain. 420 00:34:45,416 --> 00:34:52,119 And from the get go, what we've been hearing is kind of the dehumanization of immigration. 421 00:34:53,476 --> 00:34:54,757 which is a tough topic. 422 00:34:54,757 --> 00:34:57,480 I was a governor of Arizona, a border state. 423 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,902 know I've done immigration work for a long time. 424 00:35:01,543 --> 00:35:08,950 And I know that immigrants in the country illegally have a vast array of circumstances. 425 00:35:08,950 --> 00:35:20,920 But to your question, the mass surge of ICE agents combined with border patrol who've been moved into these urban settings, which are 426 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,561 really unfamiliar to them makes a huge difference. 427 00:35:24,561 --> 00:35:26,758 And then the way they've been equipped. 428 00:35:26,758 --> 00:35:28,868 uh 429 00:35:28,868 --> 00:35:35,372 It's like, as I told Politico, it's like they're going into Fallujah, not into American cities. 430 00:35:35,372 --> 00:35:39,345 And so the American public has reacted quite strongly. 431 00:35:39,345 --> 00:35:51,903 And that reaction, I think, is what has caused finally the White House to begin to, I hope, take a serious second look at its whole deportation policy and practice. 432 00:35:52,565 --> 00:36:01,831 You know, when you look at uh kind of the past relationships, Janet, you know how important it is for ICE and certainly down on the border and the ports of entry for the 433 00:36:01,831 --> 00:36:05,953 border patrol to understand and work with local law enforcement. 434 00:36:05,953 --> 00:36:12,177 You know, a lot of the most legitimate criticisms of what's going on right now is that this is bad police work. 435 00:36:12,177 --> 00:36:15,478 And you hear the chiefs of police in these cities. 436 00:36:15,679 --> 00:36:19,981 There is a long term ramification to 437 00:36:20,133 --> 00:36:30,061 this reputational problem that the Department of uh Homeland Security has now in working in the future with law enforcement, which is absolutely critical. 438 00:36:30,106 --> 00:36:31,156 Yeah, you're so right. 439 00:36:31,156 --> 00:36:45,436 As you and I both know, look, law enforcement works best when it coordinates and cooperates and where state and locals take the lead on state crimes, which are the vast 440 00:36:45,436 --> 00:36:49,008 majority of violent crimes and street crimes in our country. 441 00:36:49,008 --> 00:36:54,711 And the feds come in and add expertise and backup on particular things that are federal crimes. 442 00:36:54,711 --> 00:36:55,932 uh 443 00:36:55,932 --> 00:36:59,932 Here in Minneapolis, have the exact opposite. 444 00:36:59,932 --> 00:37:04,652 We have this descent of almost 3,000 federal agents. 445 00:37:04,652 --> 00:37:15,012 I think there's 2,000 plus ICE agents and 800 or 900 border patrol thrust into a city where the entire police department has 600 officers. 446 00:37:15,732 --> 00:37:21,132 And that geographically, you can drive across Minneapolis in less than 30 minutes. 447 00:37:21,492 --> 00:37:24,972 So it's a very concentrated large scale force. 448 00:37:24,972 --> 00:37:26,386 And as I mentioned, 449 00:37:27,259 --> 00:37:33,334 garbed in battle wears if they're going into battle, uh as opposed to their mission. 450 00:37:33,334 --> 00:37:43,862 Their mission should have been to target those illegal immigrants in the country who've committed other crimes to pick them up so that they can be put into deportation 451 00:37:43,862 --> 00:37:44,973 proceedings. 452 00:37:44,973 --> 00:37:55,792 But instead, they were given this large mandate, you gotta have 3,000 arrests a day, which is a factor by five or six of the average number of arrests 453 00:37:55,792 --> 00:37:59,025 per day in the immigration field. 454 00:37:59,305 --> 00:38:12,528 And so that resulted in these sweeps and these indiscriminate searches and pulling people off the street and going to schools and churches and other places that previously uh ICE 455 00:38:12,528 --> 00:38:15,330 had been directed to stay away from. 456 00:38:17,340 --> 00:38:23,545 So on my radio show, what I often get is that they have no business being there. 457 00:38:23,545 --> 00:38:26,217 And I'm not talking about ICE agents. 458 00:38:26,217 --> 00:38:30,220 know, obviously I broadcast from a very conservative area. 459 00:38:30,220 --> 00:38:34,143 And uh gentleman the other day said, well, what are they there for? 460 00:38:34,143 --> 00:38:36,265 You know, why are they there? 461 00:38:36,265 --> 00:38:40,528 You know, you don't want them treated that way, but why are they there? 462 00:38:40,548 --> 00:38:43,280 And my answer was because they can be. 463 00:38:43,346 --> 00:38:59,051 ah And so have you seen anything, you know, in any of the video in anywhere in watching any of this that would justify the response with the general public that ISIS had? 464 00:38:59,051 --> 00:39:00,774 Not the people they're targeting. 465 00:39:00,774 --> 00:39:09,010 We can go down that road all day long, but but just the general public that are following them, recording them, blowing the whistles. 466 00:39:09,648 --> 00:39:14,332 Well, I think the public, and I'm not from Minneapolis. 467 00:39:14,472 --> 00:39:15,934 I visited once or twice. 468 00:39:15,934 --> 00:39:19,216 So I'm not intimately familiar with Minneapolis. 469 00:39:19,216 --> 00:39:35,461 But when you're in a community, and all of a sudden, without seeming planning or coordination with local or state authorities, you have this huge oh deployment of federal 470 00:39:35,461 --> 00:39:36,671 forces. 471 00:39:36,858 --> 00:39:44,833 kind of going willy-nilly um and then uh stating things in the media that are clearly untrue. 472 00:39:44,833 --> 00:39:50,396 um It undercuts the credibility of law enforcement. 473 00:39:50,396 --> 00:39:54,878 It undercuts any sense of federal state uh relations. 474 00:39:54,878 --> 00:39:57,740 um And the public senses that. 475 00:39:57,740 --> 00:40:04,504 I think the public understands what effective good law enforcement is and what it is not. 476 00:40:04,584 --> 00:40:14,613 And in Minneapolis, it's been to such an extreme degree that people are protesting and whistles and so forth, but understandably so. 477 00:40:15,669 --> 00:40:29,256 But when we think about kind of the public response here, Janet, and you think about, know, what is, think about that against the training. 478 00:40:29,837 --> 00:40:39,442 So if you're trained to deal with protesters, if you're trained to deal with what's happening right now, you react differently than what they've been reacting. 479 00:40:39,503 --> 00:40:43,955 And so their argument is you can't legally follow us. 480 00:40:43,955 --> 00:40:49,748 You can't legally blow a whistle even though we're, you can't even record us. 481 00:40:49,748 --> 00:41:03,203 I mean, that's the position that it seems to me that the Department of Homeland Security is taking, that any of those activities are interference with federal law enforcement and 482 00:41:03,203 --> 00:41:04,214 chargeable. 483 00:41:04,214 --> 00:41:06,755 And they'll pull citizens out of their car. 484 00:41:06,755 --> 00:41:09,316 We've seen it over and over and over again. 485 00:41:09,316 --> 00:41:12,397 So to explain to people what, 486 00:41:12,629 --> 00:41:17,649 In your opinion, is it illegal to stand on a street corner and blow a whistle? 487 00:41:20,748 --> 00:41:26,729 Yeah, I mean, honestly, I mean, you know, we just saw a video and I don't know if you saw it of a woman in St. 488 00:41:26,729 --> 00:41:31,489 Peter who was, which is a kind of a suburb of the city's Minneapolis, St. 489 00:41:31,489 --> 00:41:34,129 Paul, and she was following ICE, right? 490 00:41:34,129 --> 00:41:35,789 Recording where they're going to be. 491 00:41:35,789 --> 00:41:39,889 They literally got out of their car and pulled guns. 492 00:41:39,889 --> 00:41:42,705 And I think they were ICE agents, not border patrol. 493 00:41:42,705 --> 00:41:47,610 literally pulled guns on her, a suburban mom. 494 00:41:47,610 --> 00:42:00,624 I mean, and you want to say, do you understand, Christine Ohm, how dangerous this is for the future of cooperation, for the future of your relationships with the public when 495 00:42:00,624 --> 00:42:02,005 people see this? 496 00:42:02,948 --> 00:42:12,392 You know, I can't speak for the secretary, but I can say pulling guns on somebody for following a car, let's be real. 497 00:42:12,392 --> 00:42:23,377 I mean, we live in a country that is based on the Constitution, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, the basic rights that we all share. 498 00:42:23,857 --> 00:42:31,290 they are not the exercise of those rights is not an offense for which force should be used against. 499 00:42:32,105 --> 00:42:35,042 It's just, is. 500 00:42:35,042 --> 00:42:43,465 It's really why I spoke out, Heidi, because I just seen this time and time again, and it's just not the way we should be. 501 00:42:43,465 --> 00:42:50,065 And Joel, if you just give me just a minute, know, Janet and I both know what a 1983 action is. 502 00:42:50,065 --> 00:43:00,225 1983 is a civil rights action filed in federal court that anyone whose civil rights have been violated, they can challenge the government and they can get attorney's fees under 503 00:43:00,225 --> 00:43:01,465 1983. 504 00:43:01,465 --> 00:43:06,525 Can you just imagine the liability that she is incurring? 505 00:43:06,525 --> 00:43:07,685 I mean, you know, 506 00:43:07,685 --> 00:43:16,418 I know you don't want to be directly critical, but the liability that the federal government's incurring with all these activities which are clearly being recorded, which 507 00:43:16,418 --> 00:43:19,171 are clearly going to find their way into federal district. 508 00:43:19,632 --> 00:43:33,294 Well, there's not only that, but now so many states are considering state laws that when there is an action like the shootings that occurred in Minneapolis, enable the citizenry 509 00:43:33,294 --> 00:43:38,988 to sue the agents and the agency involved directly in state court. 510 00:43:39,625 --> 00:43:42,640 Yeah, well, we'll see where that ends up. 511 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:49,154 Heidi, you and I have had this debate about the judiciary, which I know you two are both sworn into. 512 00:43:49,154 --> 00:43:51,105 I'm just saying I don't trust it. 513 00:43:52,026 --> 00:43:53,087 I don't trust it. 514 00:43:53,087 --> 00:43:55,008 I don't trust the Supreme Court. 515 00:43:55,008 --> 00:44:05,175 don't trust the district court judges are doing some marvelous work, but it really doesn't matter because that's just the whole High Camp's opinion. 516 00:44:05,175 --> 00:44:09,318 I think if it gets to the big bench, I don't think a damn thing is going to happen. 517 00:44:09,318 --> 00:44:09,970 m 518 00:44:09,970 --> 00:44:12,450 Madam Secretary, I got to ask this. 519 00:44:12,890 --> 00:44:15,430 Why do you think Donald Trump's doing this? 520 00:44:16,936 --> 00:44:28,653 You know, I think that uh it's interesting because, uh you know, he has been uh anti-immigrant his entire career. 521 00:44:28,653 --> 00:44:37,728 I mean, uh when he ran in 2016, you know, it was the rapists that the Mexican government was sending across the border and so forth. 522 00:44:37,728 --> 00:44:43,431 The language he's used, and it just got more more vituperative in the uh last election. 523 00:44:43,431 --> 00:44:45,452 uh Remember the... 524 00:44:45,452 --> 00:44:46,452 uh 525 00:44:47,165 --> 00:44:55,491 Haitians in uh Ohio who are eating their neighbors' cats and dogs, then repeated by the vice president, Vance. 526 00:44:55,491 --> 00:45:03,998 But the language use has gotten more more vituperative, and that kind of language is very popular with a segment of the American population. 527 00:45:03,998 --> 00:45:06,340 America has always had sort 528 00:45:06,340 --> 00:45:15,386 kind of a divided view about are we pro-immigrant, are we anti-immigrant, are they the other, are they potential new American citizens, you know. 529 00:45:15,386 --> 00:45:18,688 And he plays to the one side of that. 530 00:45:18,688 --> 00:45:25,191 But what I think he's realized in the wake of Minneapolis is you can take anything too far. 531 00:45:25,392 --> 00:45:28,033 And the politics have shifted under him. 532 00:45:28,033 --> 00:45:32,676 Whereas now people are viewing 533 00:45:32,676 --> 00:45:39,901 his immigration enforcement as too dramatic, too rough, too anti-American, if I can use that phrase. 534 00:45:39,901 --> 00:45:44,063 So now you see them trying to gently back off. 535 00:45:44,063 --> 00:45:46,105 They haven't done enough yet. 536 00:45:46,105 --> 00:45:51,868 They don't really have control over the operation yet, but they've been making some moves. 537 00:45:53,749 --> 00:46:03,914 Well, if you step back and you take a look at kind of the trajectory going forward, offer some advice. 538 00:46:03,915 --> 00:46:07,096 Offer some advice, Janet, for the public. 539 00:46:07,556 --> 00:46:12,004 Offer some advice for the agents and for the leadership. 540 00:46:12,004 --> 00:46:23,625 And I don't pretend that Kristi Noem is going to listen to your advice, but I think you still have a lot of friends within the Department of Homeland Security who have 541 00:46:23,625 --> 00:46:27,283 great respect for your leadership, offer some advice. 542 00:46:27,696 --> 00:46:31,698 Well, a couple of things come to mind. 543 00:46:32,258 --> 00:46:44,905 First, oh the federal government, the attorney general, the deputy attorney general need to immediately announce full, fair, transparent investigations of the shootings that have 544 00:46:44,905 --> 00:46:45,465 occurred. 545 00:46:45,465 --> 00:46:51,732 uh They've announced one for pretty, but not yet for good shooting. 546 00:46:51,732 --> 00:46:53,032 They need to do both. 547 00:46:53,032 --> 00:46:58,484 They need to put all the agents who were involved on administrative leave while those investigations proceed. 548 00:46:58,484 --> 00:47:05,136 They need to open their investigations to state prosecutors and local police so they're done cooperatively. 549 00:47:05,136 --> 00:47:06,757 Why is that so important? 550 00:47:06,757 --> 00:47:16,320 Because the leadership, the secretary, the vice president, they were immediately m on media saying, 551 00:47:16,472 --> 00:47:22,327 these victims were domestic terrorists, anarchists, insurrectionists, et cetera. 552 00:47:22,327 --> 00:47:26,751 And then we all saw the videos and said, well, wait a minute, that doesn't match what we saw. 553 00:47:26,751 --> 00:47:31,224 So they already undercut their credibility and their sense of fairness. 554 00:47:31,224 --> 00:47:40,813 So they need to uh reposition those investigations, do them properly with the right resources deployed there and cooperate with state and locals. 555 00:47:40,813 --> 00:47:41,653 Number one. 556 00:47:41,653 --> 00:47:45,188 Number two, they need to begin to uh redeploy 557 00:47:45,188 --> 00:47:56,313 the extra forces that have been put into Minneapolis and return all the agents for which Minneapolis is not a home station to their home stations, get them back to where they 558 00:47:56,313 --> 00:47:56,783 belong. 559 00:47:56,783 --> 00:48:06,738 Number three, they need to begin, if they're going to do a deportation operation, they need to do it by targeting those in the country illegally who've committed other serious 560 00:48:06,738 --> 00:48:12,314 crimes and not street sweeps and the like. 561 00:48:12,314 --> 00:48:22,047 They need to get rid of this 3,000 arrests a day quota as if that quota is meaningful from any law enforcement standpoint except to lead to abuse. 562 00:48:22,287 --> 00:48:29,739 They need to uh re-emphasize to every agent in the field that they are a member of federal law enforcement. 563 00:48:29,739 --> 00:48:31,790 They get to carry a badge. 564 00:48:31,790 --> 00:48:35,891 That is a duty, but it's also an honor and a privilege. 565 00:48:35,891 --> 00:48:40,552 And they need to adhere to the highest standards that that requires. 566 00:48:40,696 --> 00:48:51,100 and that the type of behavior that we have seen, unfortunately, and sadly, by some of the agents that have been deployed is just not acceptable. 567 00:48:51,100 --> 00:48:59,723 So you begin with behavior, you begin with investigations, and you begin looking at the overall construct of these operations. 568 00:49:00,806 --> 00:49:03,688 Do you think any of them step forward? 569 00:49:03,808 --> 00:49:09,131 Something's being said in terms of the orders, the directives, all of this. 570 00:49:09,392 --> 00:49:18,617 And some of these individuals aren't going to want to look at their kids or grandkids or wives in the eye and say, that was me. 571 00:49:18,677 --> 00:49:26,572 I mean, do you see any any handful of these individuals saying, you know what, let's get in front of a camera and talk. 572 00:49:28,044 --> 00:49:40,616 You know, that's hard to say, but I know enough of them to know that they don't believe that this is the best way to do their or carry out their mission or even a lawful way to 573 00:49:40,616 --> 00:49:41,917 carry out their mission. 574 00:49:41,917 --> 00:49:44,459 uh Whether they want to. 575 00:49:44,459 --> 00:49:45,658 uh 576 00:49:45,658 --> 00:49:50,151 go to the media, which would require them obviously to lose their jobs, et cetera? 577 00:49:50,151 --> 00:49:52,212 That's another question altogether. 578 00:49:52,212 --> 00:50:04,420 But we have seen in the media a smattering of former agents and former leaders of CBP, et cetera, commenting and criticizing what's been happening. 579 00:50:04,945 --> 00:50:10,288 And now we have a former secretary of Homeland Security who's willing to speak out. 580 00:50:10,288 --> 00:50:21,554 Before I let you go, Janet, I want to kind of do a shout out because you were one of I mean, when you were there and you were identifying threats against this country, you 581 00:50:21,554 --> 00:50:33,721 really started identifying the kind of right wing militia threats and the recruitment that those groups were basically the incursion of those groups into a lot of veterans groups, 582 00:50:33,721 --> 00:50:34,341 you know. 583 00:50:34,341 --> 00:50:43,426 So how it when you look at kind of January 6, and you saw it play out exactly what you had been talking about. 584 00:50:43,426 --> 00:50:56,323 um And now that there is concern that a lot of the recruitment for new ice agents for new border patrol are coming from the proud boys coming from the 3 % coming from the oath 585 00:50:56,323 --> 00:50:57,234 keepers. 586 00:50:57,234 --> 00:51:03,207 I mean, how concerned are you that we've taken our eyes off the kind of um 587 00:51:03,207 --> 00:51:05,765 militia threat that we have in this country. 588 00:51:06,138 --> 00:51:12,711 Well, I think we have lost focus on what true homeland security means. 589 00:51:12,851 --> 00:51:21,995 I think that the recruitment and the recruitment materials that are being used are not wise, to say the least. 590 00:51:22,735 --> 00:51:33,460 And also my understanding is they've reduced the days of training in all of this to 47 days to match the fact that Trump is the 47th president. 591 00:51:34,132 --> 00:51:38,735 as if that has any kind of or should have any kind of correlation. 592 00:51:38,735 --> 00:51:48,760 But in my view, what all of these operations have demonstrated is if anything, these agents need more training and ongoing training. 593 00:51:49,663 --> 00:52:00,096 But I also want to make the point that if the identity of the people who drew the weapons is true, these are not new agents. 594 00:52:00,736 --> 00:52:04,938 Some of these agents have been in this agency for 10, 15 years. 595 00:52:04,938 --> 00:52:15,401 And so I think we need to be honest about, you know, kind of whether we're seeing a culture change, whether we're seeing a, you know, a wink and a nod, you you've had... 596 00:52:15,401 --> 00:52:21,710 You've had too many constraints on you and now just go out and do whatever the hell you want, because we're going to give you immunity. 597 00:52:21,710 --> 00:52:26,740 Yeah, I think um there's something to that. 598 00:52:26,740 --> 00:52:28,028 um 599 00:52:28,028 --> 00:52:39,828 From what I've read, the actual shooters in both of the killings that we're talking about were actually out of the Border Patrol, which is also interesting. 600 00:52:39,828 --> 00:52:41,228 They weren't ICE. 601 00:52:41,228 --> 00:52:46,628 And so whenever I hear ICE mentioned, I always want to say, look, don't conflict. 602 00:52:46,628 --> 00:52:48,108 They are two different agencies. 603 00:52:48,108 --> 00:52:57,968 And what happened here is you had several thousand ICE agents, but then you had 800 or 900 Border Patrol agents thrown in on top of them. 604 00:52:57,992 --> 00:53:07,671 And the actual on-field commander was this guy, Bovino, who came out of the uh medium to small border patrol sector in California. 605 00:53:07,671 --> 00:53:22,264 um So um it was really two different missions, two different ways of training, two different, in a way, agency cultures thrust together and then poorly led and poorly uh 606 00:53:22,264 --> 00:53:23,224 trained. 607 00:53:23,793 --> 00:53:25,044 Yeah. 608 00:53:25,044 --> 00:53:37,190 Before you say goodbye, Hyde, I asked this question uh on my show to a number of Republican senators, congressmen, you know, that come on. 609 00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:46,135 And I always ask them this question and they hate it uh to the point where one of them said, you know, she's not going to come on my show anymore if I continue to ask her that 610 00:53:46,135 --> 00:53:47,105 at the end of the interview. 611 00:53:47,105 --> 00:53:49,216 So but I'm going to ask you. 612 00:53:50,057 --> 00:53:52,918 Do you think Donald Trump's a good person? 613 00:53:55,842 --> 00:53:56,712 No. 614 00:53:57,954 --> 00:54:01,196 I think we're being ill-led as a country. 615 00:54:01,377 --> 00:54:06,081 I'm sorry to say, I'm very respectful of the office of the presidency. 616 00:54:06,081 --> 00:54:10,315 And I've been respectful of Republican presidents, Democratic presidents. 617 00:54:10,315 --> 00:54:13,168 I've disagreed with presidents of both parties. 618 00:54:13,168 --> 00:54:14,068 Don't trust me. 619 00:54:14,068 --> 00:54:18,212 uh I disagree with President Biden's handling of the border, for example. 620 00:54:18,212 --> 00:54:22,495 um But I think the record on 621 00:54:22,872 --> 00:54:28,142 on Trump is so very clear and so longstanding that we can't fool ourselves anymore. 622 00:54:28,142 --> 00:54:42,936 I just want to, um tell you how proud I am of you as your friend, that I know you, that you have stepped up, that you have, and in some ways, I think, and this probably won't 623 00:54:42,936 --> 00:54:47,287 make me popular, but you and I both come from a law enforcement background. 624 00:54:47,287 --> 00:54:52,429 We know how many good men and women who are serving, who, 625 00:54:52,471 --> 00:54:57,642 care about public safety in this country, and they're all being painted with this broad brush stroke. 626 00:54:57,642 --> 00:55:11,316 And so when you can speak for the purpose of the agency, but also for the fact that there are mistakes being made and they need to be corrected because that's going to hurt the 627 00:55:11,316 --> 00:55:15,747 reputation and the relationships going forward. 628 00:55:16,008 --> 00:55:20,869 we've got to have uh immigration enforcement. 629 00:55:21,190 --> 00:55:23,531 And we need to say that over and over again. 630 00:55:23,531 --> 00:55:25,892 But we are not seeing that in Minnesota. 631 00:55:25,892 --> 00:55:27,573 We are not seeing the worst of the worst. 632 00:55:27,573 --> 00:55:32,812 We're seeing families terrified, many of whom are citizens who are in this country legally. 633 00:55:32,812 --> 00:55:33,376 That's right. 634 00:55:33,376 --> 00:55:40,731 so we need more voices like yours, Janet, and I'm really proud to have you on the hot dish, but I'm also proud to call you my friend. 635 00:55:40,924 --> 00:55:42,856 Likewise, Heidi, good to see you. 636 00:55:42,856 --> 00:55:43,794 It's good to see you. 637 00:55:43,794 --> 00:55:45,864 Thanks so much for coming on. 638 00:55:45,864 --> 00:55:46,401 You bet. 639 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,406 Thank you for joining us today on The Hot Dish. 640 00:55:51,406 --> 00:55:56,367 Hope you enjoyed this program as much as we enjoyed uh visiting with our great guests. 641 00:55:56,653 --> 00:56:07,793 And remember, you can always find a lot of great information at onecountryproject.org um brought to you and this podcast is brought to you by One Country Project. 642 00:56:08,564 --> 00:56:11,897 You know, learn more at onecountryproject.org. 643 00:56:11,897 --> 00:56:14,479 That's onecountryproject.org. 644 00:56:14,479 --> 00:56:18,414 Follow us on Substack, YouTube, Facebook, and Blue Sky.