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Bernard Harris: I believe that
as human beings we're always

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explorers. We're always looking
over the next horizon. Well,

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when people find out then that
I'm an astronaut, you know, and

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a pilot, they say, "Boy, you,
you must really like risk. You

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must be comfortable with risk."
And I said, I describe myself as

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a person who takes calculated
risks. I'm not a bungee jumper.

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I don't like to jump out of, you
know, a perfectly good aircraft

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unless I absolutely have to. You
know, so there are people who

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are like that. I'm not one of
those folks.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: This is
Bernard Anthony Harris Jr. He

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was the first African American
to complete a space walk.

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Bernard Harris: Visualize
yourself in this suit, this

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bulky suit in a small chamber.
You open up the hatch. Of

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course, your heart rate goes up
a little bit, but this is

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something that you're trained
for all your life. And, the

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hatch was facing toward the
earth, so immediately I felt

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like I was falling, and the only
way I can describe it is if

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you've ever been in the country
and have walked up to a well and

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looked over in the well and saw
how deep, that's what it felt

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like.

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The other thing is that not only
was the earth down below me in

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the sense that I was falling,
there was this great sense of

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movement. We're going around the
earth at 17,500 miles an hour.

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That's pretty darn fast, around
the entire earth in 90 minutes.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: I'm
Lauren Arora Hutchinson. I am

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the director of the iDeas Lab at
the Johns Hopkins Berman

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Institute of Bioethics. I've
spent years working on stories

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where medicine and science show
up in people's everyday lives.

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I can't imagine going 17,000
miles per hour. I can't imagine

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going into space, but for folks
like Bernard, it's a risk

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they're willing to take. But I
do have a son who'd love to go,

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and I don't know... As a mother,
I can't imagine him going into

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space, and strangely, this
little observation in my life

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seems to speak to a larger
societal question we're about to

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confront. As we prepare to send
people not just to the moon, but

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to Mars and beyond, what is the
level of risk we're willing to

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accept for our metaphorical sons
and daughters? Or to put it more

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simply, in something as risky as
space travel, who gets to decide

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what's too risky? This is
playing god?

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Bernard Harris: When I was about
six-seven years old, my parents

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divorced. My mother had a
college degree, so she had

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options. The option that she
executed was to get her family

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out of this inner city
environment in Houston, Texas,

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to the Navajo Nation, but the
whole point is that I was taken

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out of that constrictive
environment to this environment

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of Grand Canyons and painted
deserts and infinite

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possibilities.

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And, one of those possibilities
really was symbolized by me as a

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kid watching the night skies,
and I can't tell you how

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beautiful the night skies are in
that neck of the room, there's

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no light pollution that prevents
it. You don't need a telescope

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and all that. So, I was inspired
by those guys, and at the same

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time watching the space program
develop before my eyes, and so

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in 1969 when Neil and Buzz
landed on the moon and said

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those wonderful words, I was,
you know, just blown away by the

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possibility that I could follow
in their footsteps, and it was,

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it was incredible.

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I came into NASA about a year or
so after the Challenger

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accident, and I remember what my
family and friends and media

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would would talk about that, and
you're joining the astronaut

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corps, and you know, didn't you
see just what happened? And...

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and I simply believe this, that
I would rather live your or die

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doing something that I love
doing and accomplishing a dream

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than to live in fear, so that's
that's my, my way of thinking

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about

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I think the spacewalk is
symbolic of life in a sense. So

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you spend your entire life
chasing a dream, getting all the

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tools and the skills necessary
to accomplish that dream, the

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last thing to make that dream
happen is that step, right? It's

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that step of faith that
everything that you have done in

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the past is going to allow you
to successfully take that first

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step, that gigantic step. That
step for not only mankind, but

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for you as an individual.

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JD Polk: I'm Dr. J.D. Polk. I'm
the Chief Health and Medical

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Officer of NASA.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: JD Polk
is responsible for the health

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and safety of astronauts as they
prepare for and experience the

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harsh environments of space.

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JD Polk: You know, certainly,
most astronauts want to fly. So

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that's that's probably one of
the push pulls we have as flight

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surgeons at NASA is you work for
two masters.

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You're serving the patient, but
you're also serving the agency

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and looking out for the risks of
both, and sometimes they are

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incongruent, where someone may
be willing to take that risk,

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but the agency is not, or vice
versa. The agency itself, I have

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seen, is not afraid of risk, but
they go about risk in a very

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strategic, methodical, and
objective way.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: But as
we start traveling further and

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further from Earth, this gets
more and more complicated...

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JD Polk: You know, we've, we've
been a little, I guess sheltered

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in our space flight, and that we
have gotten to the moon, but

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we've always been within three
days of the Earth. Apollo 13 is

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a great example. Something went
wrong with the spacecraft, we

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were able to get the astronauts
back through a lot of heroics

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from Mission Control and the
astronauts themselves, and if

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something went wrong on the
International Space Station, we

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could get the astronauts back
very quickly, but you know when

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you, when you go to another
planet, Mars and Earth don't

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line up again for another 18 or
so months, and so you take on a

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different level of risk.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: And not
only is where we're going

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changing, but who is going.

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Bernard Harris: We're going to
have different types of folks

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who are doing different things,
who are quote unquote

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astronauts, and they will be
doing it for different reasons

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and different objectives than
what we have now.

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So, some of those will be for
the good of all mankind, some of

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those will be the good for the
company objective, some of those

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will be just experiencing
microgravity, and what's that

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light, and space, and space
exploration is that next horizon

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for humans on this earth. We're
going to be living in orbital

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platforms around the earth.
We're going to be living on the

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moon, and we're going to go to
Mars.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: And for
all these different reasons, to

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go into space is the same level
of risk acceptable for everyone?

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Bernard Harris: It's a,
it's-it's a complicated question

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that has a complicated answer to
it.

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JD Polk: But there's always the
risk of the unknown, right? I

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think probably the most
difficult problems we have are

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the unknown unknowns, when
something is operating outside

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the specs that it was designed
to do, and you wonder, okay,

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where's how much margin do I
have here. We think we have

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comfort, and we think we have
data, but do we have enough?

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Jeffrey Kahn: NASA is an
exploration agency, and there's

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nothing else like that in the
federal government.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: That's
Professor Jeffrey Kahn, our

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resident bioethics expert, who
also has served as advisor to

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NASA on the ethics of human
space flight.

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Jeffrey Kahn: They have this
funny combination of go and go

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beyond and go safely, but also
you know they're doing it with

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the money of the taxpayers of
this country, so they have to do

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it in a way that's responsible
and responsive to the

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expectations of society.

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Bernard Harris: Those early
explorers set the stage for what

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we're doing now. I'm excited
about what's happening in space.

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We're going to have different
types of astronauts doing

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different things. We're going to
have those professional

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astronauts going to be the ones
that are going to pave the way

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to the moon and pave the way to
Mars.

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Those are going to be followed
by astronauts that will be

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living, not just explorers, but
be living and working in space,

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and so this whole ecosystem that
is going to develop in low Earth

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orbit, moon and Mars, is going
to result in this tremendous

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advancement in knowledge, this
tremendous intellectual capacity

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as human beings, as we explore
the galaxy. Will also provide

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some psychological and
sociological challenges for us

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as we embark on this new
frontier, but you know we're

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going to do it.

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There's there is no doubt in my
mind that this is where we're

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headed. This new era, this new
industrial revolution that's

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going to occur is going to be on
the backs of men and women who

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seek to explore the unknown.

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Jeffrey Kahn: NASA is a US
government agency that's

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spending our money as taxpayers
to send humans out into space,

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and there's a responsibility in
their doing that when the goal

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of it is to help advance
societal goals that they need to

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do it in a way that's not just,
you know, engineered in the best

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possible way, but that respects
ethics principles in terms of

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the health and safety of the
astronauts as well.

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So they see it as a
responsibility really on the

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part of the agency to take care
of the people that they put in

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harm's way for benefits that are
accruing to society as a whole.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: As we
go further and deeper into space

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on longer exploration missions,
we have to start thinking

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differently about risk.

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Bernard Harris: When you're in
low Earth orbit, you know it's

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just a millisecond or so latency
versus the 20 minutes from ours,

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and so if there are any issues,
particularly medical problems,

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we can immediately call back
down to Mission Control, they

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can connect us to a specialist
that can help us resolve our

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problem, and it's almost done
real time.

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In addition, if there are any
serious illnesses, then we can

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immediately deorbit and come
back within hours, which is

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something we can't do if we go
to Mars, or even the moon, for

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that matter.

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JD Polk: If you think about
somebody on the space station

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today, if they scratch their
cornea and it doesn't heal, I'm

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not going to make an astronaut
sacrifice their left eye for the

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space program, and we would
bring them down. We'd have them

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in a hospital with
ophthalmologists to getting

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care, but when you go to Mars
and the planets don't line up

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again for another 18 months, if
you scratch your cornea while

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you're on the second day of
arrival on Mars, you're not

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turning around and coming back.

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It risks the crew, and you've
now put the other people at

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risk. It risks the mission. All
of those things change to where

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now you know the life and limb
is subordinate to the mission,

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instead of the other way around.
And so that's that's one of the

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probably the biggest ethical
paradigm shifts in exploration

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missions versus low earth orbit
and near earth missions like the

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moon.

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Jeffrey Kahn: It just won't be
possible to bring people back or

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to send a crew to help in time,
and that's a different ethics

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calculation, as well as a
different kind of just

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understanding of mission. And
so, that's just part of the

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conversation that the agency is
is having, and first and

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foremost, that the crew
understands that that's what

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they're accepting as a function
of going on these missions, and

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second that the American people
appreciate that that's the level

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of commitment and risk that the
crew is accepting, that NASA is

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asking the crew to accept, and
the American people have to be

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willing to understand that there
will be untoward events, and

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there could be fatalities, and
people lost on missions, and

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that has to be an acceptable
thing for us as a, as a people.

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Bernard Harris: So, there does
need to be a level of autonomy

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for the crews, and one of the
things that I think is

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important, and that is that we
will go from this ability to

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provide immediate services and
feedback and advice and counsel

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to this: how do we support the
crew to make their own decisions

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while they're there?

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Jeffrey Kahn: So, the crews will
have to make decisions in ways

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that are not as supported by the
many, many people on the ground

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that otherwise support every
mission, and there's some talk

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about trying to aid that
decision making with artificial

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intelligence, but at the end of
the day, it will be crews

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deciding about what should
happen in real time in a much

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more kind of isolated, you're on
your own kind of way, which is a

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different kind of a different
ethics commitment on the part of

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the crew and the members of the
crew and the part of the agency

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to accept that.

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It's like you know you can do
certain things when you're

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tethered and you feel much safer
about it. It's a different thing

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if you're jetting around in
space without a tether attached

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to the space station, it feels
kind of like that level of

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difference. We're kind of on our
own. We'll have to manage

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whatever comes.

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JD Polk: It's not just a vested
interest to make sure that the

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nation succeeds, or that NASA
succeeds, but it's personal. You

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want to make sure Butch and
Sonny come home safely. I think

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that part, the humanizing of
that risk, is something that's

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important, and I think it's
something that the agency does

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fairly well.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: We
asked astronaut Bernard Harris

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if he would sign up for a
mission to Mars.

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Bernard Harris: I, you know, I
would. I would certainly like

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that opportunity at some point
in time. I joke and say to folks

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that I would jump on immediately
if we were going to the

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it's close since I can go and
come back, but if going to Mars,

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you know, it is a three year
trip, at least a three year

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trip.

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So, do I want to do that at this
age, or would I wait till later?

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And so my joke is that when I
turn 80, I'll go to Mars. I'll

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be one of those octogenarians
who will volunteer to go to

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Mars, because I won't care
whether I come back or not, and

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I advance, of course, human
exploration further.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: Advancing
human exploration further is a

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drive that shaped human history,
and one that has always come

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with risk. For adventurers like
Bernard, and those who will

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follow him, the rewards of space
travel are being at the

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forefront of new discoveries are
worth the risk, but for NASA,

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astronauts and all of us left
back down on Earth, how do we

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grapple with the risks of
sending someone into space

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without the option of help, if
things go wrong? Who gets to

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make that decision? What new
discoveries are worth risking

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human lives?

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Would you be scared of going
into space?

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Child: I don't know.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: Would
you want to go as far as Mars?

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Child: Yeah.

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Child: Because I wanna see above
space 'cause it, it could be

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: Why?

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cool.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: Yeah,
does it feel. do you think it

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would feel risky?

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Child: Um, I think so.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: But you
want to take that risk?

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Child: Yeah.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: Why?

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Child: Because I would see if I
could do it.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: Yeah?

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Child: Yeah.

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: Join us
next week on a special two-part

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episode of playing god?

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Guests: If you had cancer that
ran in the family, would you

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have a child? Put yourself in a
position like that, what would

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you do?

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: Where
we meet a couple who became

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accidental pioneers of genetic
medicine...

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Guests: And I said, "Oh my God,
you came into this world like

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loud, you just made sure that
you are here," like...

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Lauren Arora Hutchinson: Many
thanks to our guests in this

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episode. To Bernard Harris for
sharing his story with us, and

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to Jeffrey Kahn and JD Polk.
playing god? is a production of

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the Dracopoulos-Bloomberg iDeas
Lab at the Johns Hopkins Berman

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Institute of Bioethics, made in
association with Sea Salt and

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00:23:11,974 --> 00:23:16,633
Mango Productions. This episode
was produced by Lauren Arora

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Hutchinson and Aaron Henkin,
with help from Lyric Bowditch,

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Brian Ricker, Amelia Hood, and
Mrigaanka Sharma. Our executive

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editor is Tony Phillips. Music
and sound design by Alexander

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00:23:30,998 --> 00:23:35,579
Overington. iDeas Lab producer,
Lyric Bowditch. Researcher,

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00:23:35,657 --> 00:23:40,005
Brian Ricker. Story editor,
Simon Adler. Show art, Barry

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Pousman and Shawn Carney. Our
production coordinators are Leah

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Lord and Susan Snead. Our
executive producers are Jeffrey

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Kahn and Anna Mastroianni. I'm
Lauren Arora Hutchinson, host

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and managing editor. Come back
next week for more playing god?