Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Kelly Driscoll.
In this episode, you'll hear part one of my conversation with Amy Urbanus,
Assistant Professor in the Dietetics and Nutrition Program at University
of Alaska Anchorage's School of Preventative and Therapeutic Services.
More links and information about today's conversation can be found on Digication's
Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
Full episodes of Digication Scholars Conversations can be found on
YouTube or your favorite podcast app.
Welcome to Digication Scholars Conversations.
I'm your host, Kelli Driscoll, and today I am so pleased to introduce
Amy Urbanus, assistant Professor in the Dietetics and Nutrition Program at
University of Alaska Anchorage's School of Preventative and Therapeutic Services.
Welcome, Amy!
Thank you so much for having me.
Absolutely.
So, Amy, I just, you know, I always kind of like to ask how people came to the
institutions where they're teaching today.
And I think especially with University of Alaska Anchorage that
there's probably a story there.
So could you tell us about your journey?
Right.
Yes.
How you came to where you are today?
Sure.
Yeah, definitely.
I was not born and raised in Alaska.
So, um, I am originally from Des Moines, Iowa.
Uh, so I am a Midwestern baby and, uh, got my undergraduate degree in Colorado at
Colorado State University a long time ago.
I won't tell you when.
Uh, and you know, I love the mountains.
I kept That's sort of moving west.
Um, I, after graduation with my undergraduate degree, I decided
I did not want to be a dietitian, which is kind of comical that here I
am, uh, teaching future dietitians.
Um, but I moved back to the Midwest.
I always say I gave it the good, honest Midwest try, um, and
lived there and worked with a registered dietitian for a year.
Um, In a employee wellness program, um, so for your viewers who know the
Midwest, I did employee wellness for Hy Vee grocery stores, which covers a
seven state range, uh, in the Midwest.
And it was then that I realized like, Oh, like this lady's got it going on.
Like she's running this program.
She's doing all these amazing things.
Maybe being a registered dietitian.
Would not be so bad.
Um, so I kept working for her and this is employee wellness kind of when it
was on Like the forefront of employee wellness like this wasn't happening yet
Um, because it was in the 90s right, um And this entirely was not talked about not
so much It was very kind of so the fact that we were counseling employees at these
grocery stores Um was was a pretty...
pretty cool thing, actually.
Um, anyway, so, but I was still plugging along in Iowa and my roommate from
Colorado State grew up in Kodiak, Alaska, and she had since moved back to Anchorage,
um, and told me I would love it.
And so I packed up my little Subaru and drove, I don't know, five or six
days up the Alcan and came to Alaska.
And my first job, I got a job, I actually interviewed on the road.
Uh, somewhere in the Yukon, um, for, I worked for RurAL CAP, which is
Rural Alaska Community Action Program.
And so I worked for their early Head Start and Head Start programs, uh, and
within like three weeks, I was on this little, uh, bush plane with duct tape,
kind of scary, but I was flying out into these rural communities in Western
Alaska, um, totally had, you know, all of my Prior teachings of what I was
supposed to do were just wiped out.
I was just totally fell in love with Alaska, um, and the Alaska Native
population, uh, and worked out there.
And then I decided, hey, I really should do my dietetic internship, get
my graduate certificate and move on to becoming a registered dietitian.
So, uh, the University of Alaska Anchorage had a dietetic internship program.
Um, so I did my internship here.
I was one of five students that year.
Um, we did not have an undergraduate, uh, didactic program in dietetics at
that time, just the internship component.
Um, and so I, you know, became a registered dietitian, got a job, met a
guy, uh, you know, and, you know, swore I was looking for jobs back in Colorado.
But I always say, you know, Three kids later and a house and some chickens
and dogs and all the rest of it.
I'm still in Alaska.
Um, so this is way more story than you probably want.
Oh, I love it.
I love it.
But so I then spent probably, I think I spent 18 years, um, Mostly, I did work at,
uh, the Alaska Native Hospital a little bit with South Central Foundation, uh,
there, but, uh, quickly moved over to, uh, Providence Alaska Medical Center,
uh, and did, uh, about eight years or ten years in outpatient counseling, uh,
primarily focused in diabetes education, um, and outpatient nutrition counseling,
um, and then moved into the acute care side and for Eight years was a diabetes
specialist, um, working with glycemia management and diabetes care and, uh, for,
uh, patients admitted to the hospital.
Um, and the didact, the director of the undergraduate program at the
time, I'd known her for, here at UAA, I'd known her for a very long time.
Um, and, um, Kept asking me, like, when are you going to come teach with us?
When are you going to come teach with us?
I'd been an adjunct instructor for a lot of years, um, and I love teaching.
And so I took a, I took a leap and left my dream job.
I always say my diabetes specialist job was my dream job, um, and left
that and came to UAA five years ago.
So this is my sixth year, um, as full time faculty, uh, here
at the University, uh, and.
Yeah, it's been, it's been a wild ride, and great, and super fun to dive into a
whole, you know, I felt like I was young enough that I had another career left in
me, um, so, yeah, so that's how I'm here.
Ah, that's such a great story, and it sounds like you're somebody
who's, uh, quite comfortable taking, taking leaps, so.
Uh, you mentioned that, uh, I think it was your past roommate, um, that
was from Kodiak and thought that you would love it in Alaska and
you, you packed up your Subaru.
I think you said, um, I used to have one of those too.
Fun car.
Um, so had you been to Alaska before, before you packed up and, you know,
So do you remember some of your first impressions when you arrived?
Yes.
So, uh, for any of your viewers that have ever driven the Alcan, um, it's beautiful.
And I came up in the end of August.
So in the Yukon territory, in the interior, it's beautiful.
It was fall.
So, uh, so the, the first thing really is just you're out in the middle of
nowhere or it felt for me at the time that I was out in the middle of nowhere
and just all of these fall colors and it was super, super gorgeous.
Um, coming into Anchorage actually when you, uh, you actually drive
through a town called Palmer, which is one of our, uh, more of our
agriculture Titan communities here.
Um, which is amazing and still some of my favorite views of these mountains that
you, that you view when you drive in.
Um, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so amazing.
And then I quickly hit, uh, what we would consider to not be
the greatest part of Anchorage.
Um, And, you know, all of a sudden I was like, Oh, this is Anchorage.
And I was petrified.
I had a, yes, I had a total panic attack, you know, as I'm driving
by, like, you know, strip clubs.
I'm just like, Oh my gosh, what did I do?
And Anchorage is a, you know, it's a, it's a Western city.
It's, it's, it's very mixed and, um, you You know, it's not a huge city.
Um, and so, yeah, so that was one of my, my initial reactions.
Obviously, you know, there, there's a lot of beautiful parts of Anchorage.
The other thing that really got me is when you watch the news, at least
when you used to watch local TV.
Before streaming.
So, um, I remember watching the news.
I'm in this hotel room.
I haven't moved into an apartment yet.
I just got here and when they do the weather up here, they do the lower 48.
So they'll talk about everything that's going on, you know, in the
lower 48 and then they take the globe and they like rotate it.
So you like come up and here at home and I burst into tears because I
was like, I'm so far away from home.
Like I had, that's when it actually hit me.
Not the drive, not the week long drive, but the, Oh my heavens.
Like they had to rotate the earth to show Alaska.
Um, so that was one of my other biggest, you know, kind of, Oh my gosh.
Um, but you know, obviously I'm still here in 2023.
So things, things worked out okay.
Yeah, it sounds like it.
Um, and it is remarkable.
I've had the incredible opportunity to visit Anchorage.
Uh, definitely need to give a shout out to Paul Wasco, the ePortfolio Coordinator
at University of Alaska Anchorage, um, because he has just been such a Wonderful
connector, um, between, uh, Jeff Yan, uh, Digication's co founder and CEO and
myself with the UAA community there.
And we had this incredible, um, opportunity to, you know, now visit
the campus several times and It was so striking to me how Anchorage
is, you know, very much a city.
How quickly you can really feel completely remote and in, you
know, fully immersed in the city.
And different kinds of experiences, whether you're seeing glaciers or,
you know, we joke about moose spotting on, before you've seen one, you really
don't know how big they really are.
They're very big.
Yeah, and I remember on one of our early visits, it was springtime
there and seeing, you know, different flowers that were growing there
that I'd never seen in the lower 48.
Yeah, I've lived in New England and the Southeast and in, um, the, you know,
more like Northern California area, and it was just really, um, so fun to see
all of the, uh, Different variety of plants and animals and scenery there.
And of course, just this like constant view of the mountains.
So as someone that loved the mountains, that probably, even when you had that
moment where you felt a little hard to rotate, you know, to see the weather.
I hope also is kind of offering you a little bit of feeling of.
You know, connection.
Um, so thank you.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
Uh, and you were also mentioning another leap that you made where, you
know, you described that you'd found your, your dream job, um, but then,
uh, did make this, uh, transition into teaching in Higher Ed and it's, was
it the kind of community that you had started to connect with at UAA that.
You think kind of solidified that decision or were there elements about some of
your, you know, prior teaching practice that kind of led you in that direction?
What do you feel like might have been that kind of...
you know, I think it, it was kind of a, Kind of a lot of different things.
I think, you know, so I'm a little bit of a, even though I've lived in Alaska for
a long time, I always kind of describe myself as a little bit of a change junkie.
Like, I'm kind of always like, what's next?
What's the next challenge?
What's going to be the next, um, you know, I remember like after I had my third
child, I am like, okay, like got married, had baby one, two, three, like now what?
You know, like I had that feeling like, okay, let's go to PA
school, you know, or something, whatever I was doing at the time.
Um, And so, you know, I'd been doing, I'd been in that position
for eight years and, um, I think the thing that always kind of, I found
myself in that role teaching a lot.
So one of my main, so I did patient education.
So I did diabetes education for patients.
Um, Which, it seems to a lot of people, they're like, Oh,
don't you get tired of diabetes?
And I'm like, No, because my role here is really to be like an investigator
and a problem solver and figure out.
So different for why?
Yeah.
So every person is so different.
No two people are the same.
I always call diabetes a designer disease.
It's very personalized.
And so, built this rapport with the physicians and nursing staff and pharmacy
and, you know, kind of was really a.
I felt like a, an integral member of a, an interdisciplinary team
where I would interview my patients and really try to figure out, you
know, what is it that got you here?
And so let's, let's figure out the barriers and let's figure out why,
how it is that you have found yourself in the hospital and then, you know,
see if I can't help coordinate that care and transition you to the
outpatient world and, and all of that.
So the interdisciplinary aspect was really important to me.
And another big part of my role was to build a glycemia management
program within the hospital, um, and kind of lead that charge.
And what that really means is getting physicians, nurses, techs,
pharmacists, to all understand each other and speak the same language.
Um, and I love that.
I mean, pharmacists are different, totally different than nurses.
Like nurses, I mean, they have to like think on the fly and then pharmacy
would be all upset because they're very, not all pharmacists, but some
are like very linear and like, you know, well, but why would they do that?
They can't do that.
And I'm like, well, they did that because of this, you know?
And then the physicians are doing something different.
And so I found myself doing a lot of presentations and education,
and I would let physicians or different people, uh, follow with
me and, um, you know, round with me.
And we were, you know, I had the, The advantage of really
hyper focusing on one condition.
So I felt like I could get really good at that.
Um, where other providers and things don't have that advantage, right?
They have to be experts and so many different things.
So I found myself educating a lot and, um, And so not just patient education,
but then also professional education.
So I think I liked that.
I found that really awesome and interesting, um, and rewarding, I guess.
Um, and so when this became available, you know, this position at UAA, it
kind of married those things for me.
Um, So, it's obviously higher education, so I'm teaching students, you know, at a
higher, obviously, like at a higher level.
Um, I have the fortunate, I'm totally fortunate to be able to teach in the
undergraduate and the graduate program, so it, it really, You know, I have a
lot of variety in my student population.
I am in charge of advising.
I knew I was going to be in charge of advising for our program.
And I've been told I spend way too long with my students.
Um, I remember my coworker whose office is next to me, she came after I'd had
like my, I don't know, like my fifth advising session in my first year, she
comes around, she's like, you're not going to spend an hour with each person.
Are you?
She's like, you're never going to get anything done.
And I was like, Oh, I was like, I was like, okay, well, I like this.
Like it felt like counseling.
So, uh, so it, it utilized my counseling skills, um, to where, you know, so
when we talk about, I know we'll talk about portfolios, but when we
talk about like, You know, student success and all of that kind of
stuff, like that felt like good to me.
So I really enjoy the advising aspect of things.
Um, and yeah, and then it was just, you know, it was like, why not?
Um, you know, I, like I said, I felt like I had another, You know, I
kind of had like my first 20 years.
Um, it was like, okay, well, am I going to do this for the next 20 or,
or 15 or however long I end up working?
I don't know.
Um, you know, or is there, there's something I had, I felt like I
had enough time to be Good at something else, I guess, like
develop and grow professionally.
Um, I will tell people that that first year that I worked full
time as faculty, um, was, I hadn't worked that hard in a long time.
Uh, and so just everything, you know, was just so brand new, a whole
different system and everything.
This past summer though, I'm super was super happy.
I took a position as a PRN per diem, Clinical Dietician back at the same
hospital, um, and to kind of make sure my skills were, you know, current
and accurate, and I had so much fun.
I, I really do miss the, um, there is a culture in a hospital, um, and a very,
it's a very social, uh, environment.
Um, and so.
Yeah, so I, there are, there are elements to that that I definitely
miss, but this has been good.
Yeah.
Well, and what an incredible kind of experience and, you know, in all of
those different areas for you to be able to bring to your students now, too, you
know, even the element of the Things about that that you miss because you're
able to kind of pull from that when you're communicating with your students
and advocating for them and Um, helping guide them through the advising, you
know, how lucky those students are to have somebody that, that committed to the,
the field and also to, to their success.
Um, now I know one of your recent challenges as someone who said
that they, you know, are kind of looking to, to do new things.
Um, Was the recent kind of accreditation, uh, within dietetics and, uh, could
you share with us a little bit what, what that was like and, um, maybe
at a high level, how Digication may have supported some of those efforts?
Oh, for sure.
So, um, so a part of my role here as assistant professor is I also
this, uh, This other faculty member that recruited me, I didn't know
that she was moving up the ladder.
Um, so she was, she's a very good friend of mine, uh, but she was the
director of our didactic program in dietetics, uh, which is our Bachelor
of Science degree in dietetics.
And, um, So, in my second semester of teaching, I became the director of our,
of our program, which means that, um, that in addition to those other things, I'm
really in charge of outside accreditation.
So, we are accredited by an organization called ACEND.
Um, I couldn't tell you what it stands for, Accreditation Council for
Dietetics Education, I don't know.
Anyway.
That sounds, that's so terrible.
I should have it written down here somewhere.
No, we all have.
You know, I'll have to try to memorize so many different acronyms.
Yeah, they are crediting body and our, um, our larger body.
So, uh, so would they accredit our program?
So we're accredited as a didactic program in dietetics, um, which essentially is
Just the undergraduate portion, when the student completes that, they're
eligible, uh, they receive what we call a verification statement in addition
to their degree, um, and it allows them to move into graduate education,
another accredited program where they do supervise practice or those internship
hours, uh, that a lot of programs have, um, and then are able to sit for the
registered dietitian nutritionist exam.
Um, so we're accredited for seven years.
Um, Or were accredited for seven years now we are again.
Uh, which is great.
Um, and so I sort of found myself in year four needing to start the process
of, uh, writing a self-study and proving to our accrediting body that we.
Should be reaccredited.
And wow what a process.
I learned a lot about the university as a whole.
And so we, you know you, like many of your viewers, have programs that
you write these gigantic Um, and then we had last fall, so in the fall of
2022, we had some site reviewers, uh, external reviewers come up to
Alaska, um, and do a site review.
And so, a part of that site visit, um, is, you know, they want tons and tons and
tons of evidence, uh, that you're that you're doing what you say you're doing.
So you write this big report and they're like, yeah, that's great.
Okay.
Now we want to see, you know, the proof that you're actually doing this.
Um, so in what I was told, uh, as far as, you know, I, I talked to lots of different
people who had gone through these, Uh, site visits in other professions, uh,
like our dental program had just gone through a site visit, um, to other ACEND
accredited programs in the lower 48, you know, what, what do you, how, you
know, what's the best way to do this?
I had, I interviewed our actual site reviewers to say, Hey, like, how do
you want, All of these documents.
I mean, it's like, I felt like it was just so overwhelming.
Um, the amount of information that they wanted to have on site.
And they said, well, some people will do a Blackboard shell, like create like
a, a dev shell, like a, um, you know, and, and just plug things in there and
then you give us access to Blackboard.
Um, otherwise they found it to be really successful to do like a Google drive.
And then just have all of your folders and, you know, organized.
And I was just like, that sounds awful.
Like as a reviewer, like how you could.
open up each of those documents.
I mean, I felt like you would want to have like four screens so you could,
and that tells you, yeah, that tells you I'm probably should not be a reviewer.
Um, but it just seems very, uh, Just like two dimensional, I guess, maybe,
uh, if that's a good word to use, um, so, you know, I was like, well, how,
like, how would you, like, you would close something and then you would open
another document and, you know, and then the older days, you know, you had
portfolios, you had binders, right?
So, because we use ePortfolio in our program, um, You know, for our students
to show competence and to have the fact that they've met all of these
competencies as a part of our accredited program, um, I asked if they would be
willing to let me use an ePortfolio to house and to showcase all of our on
site evidence and documents for them.
Uh, they said, I have no idea what you're talking about, but that sounds great.
I mean, they sort of, they sort of knew.
I think, you know, there are other, you know, kinds of things
that they had maybe, you know, dabbled with in their own programs.
Um, so I reached out to Paul Wasko and he was wonderful in helping me do this.
And I essentially just built a gigantic portfolio, um, which, you know, to have.
You know, so it was super organized under all of, you know, we have, I think, eight
different standards and underneath all of those standards, there are specific,
uh, you know, student examples of work and all of that kind of stuff that had to
be as a part of those on site, you know, documents that needed to be ready, um,
and Paul was, you know, Super gracious to work with the reviewers to make sure that
they had access and knew how to do it.
We knew it was going to be FERPA compliant.
There were, you know, some things like that.
It's, it was great because I knew it was locked down, you know, so it didn't
have to have, it wasn't public facing.
Um, they knew that they just had access to it.
And one of the beautiful things was that they didn't have to be present and in our
Uh, you know, in our drive, like, right?
So, like, I mean, I guess a Google Drive, I could, you know, give
them access to that ahead of time.
Um, but the, the feedback that I got from our reviewers was
really like, ah, this is so great.
We were able to, you know, we sat at the hotel and we could just
look at stuff and listen to things.
And.
You know, all of that kind of stuff.
So, um, so yeah, it worked out really swimmingly and all of the things, you
know, the, um, one of the nice things for me because I use Portfolio in my
classes, um, is that it forced me to kind of become You know, like a super user.
Uh, so, you know, I, because I was uploading all different types of files.
So, we run an online program.
So, it was a wonderful way for me to upload videos that students
had developed and created.
I could share, um, you know, audio recordings that they had done.
I could share, you know, a lot of different Types of media, um, as
far as what I thought in an online program, you know, really highlights,
you know, what we're doing here and the quality of online education that
we're providing for our students.
Um, so, but it did, you know, it, so I always have my students build these
portfolios, so it was really good for me.
It was very humbling to be like, Okay, like I'm gonna build something
from scratch and kind of do that.
So it worked out really well.
Wonderful.
I'm so glad to hear that.
And I would love to hear a little bit about how You know, you were
able to, um, craft this incredible kind of presentation of your program.
How are you using these kinds of tools with the students in your courses?
I think Dietetics has had a pretty long history with Digication.
I believe it may have started in 2014, because it was one of the
first programs, I think, to jump on board because of this program.
We'll need to be able to record what the students were doing and see their
growth towards particular standards that they were working towards.
Yeah, I, my predecessor, uh, Kendra Sticca, Dr.
Sticca, so she's the one who recruited me, moved out.
Um, but she's the one that really brought, you know, she was on board
with, portfolio Um, and so I inherited her courses that she had started.
So I came in 2018.
So she had really just started kind of building that in our curriculum.
Um, and, you know, and, and even to this day, I was actually kind of surprised
because this is what I came into.
So I just sort of made the assumption that this is what programs do.
This is the kind of stuff that they use because it made a lot of sense to me.
Um, I think like prior to when I was going through this site visit self study stuff,
we also had to adopt, uh, 2022 standards.
Um, so within the ACEND community of, um, directors, we had lots of
meetings kind of going through, you know, with um, you know, just like
Zoom meetings, whatever, um, going through the different standards, what
had changed, all of that kind of stuff.
And one of the major things that had changed was that now our ACEND,
our accrediting body is really requiring us to better document,
um, achievement of competence.
So, you know, have they actually, have your students actually met
the competency and how do you.
How do you show that?
And so I was like, Oh, you know, we use this ePortfolio in our program
and all of our students build an ePortfolio and I was blown away by how
many people were like, you do what?
Um, and, and so it was actually really, really helpful.
And I hope, you know, and I think there are some other programs and program
directors that are starting to think about how, um, you know, other than just
saying, yes, check, I did an assignment, yes, check, I got a C or better, check,
you know, that kind of stuff that there's a way that you can actually have students
demonstrate their level of competence.
Um, so what we do throughout our program is in our, uh, DN 100.
It's a 100 level, it's called the Profession of Dietetics.
It's a one credit class.
Um, it's for our pre nagers.
Um, I teach that class and they learn how to build a portfolio, an e portfolio.
And we have a template that we use, obviously.
We're big on templates.
I think everybody starts something from scratch is not a good idea.
Um.
And so, students really get the opportunity to use our dietetic templates.
I tell my students, it's really like the bucket.
It's the main bucket.
Um, and they, you know, they just, they learn how to use it, for one,
so they're not intimidated when they are taking some 400, 300 level class.
And now not only do they have to use it.
Do this big project that can be intimidating, but they
have to do it in ePortfolio.
So I like to use that 100 level entry point as, Hey, this is the purpose,
you know, over the course of the program, you're going to be doing
all these different assignments.
You're going to, you know, that, you know, we utilize specific projects
and assignments to Measure, you know, a competency in our program, um,
and you know, they use, they use the portfolio to, um, to demonstrate that.
And so they'll, you know, they do a personal statement.
They learn how to do this, you know, the beaut, the pretty stuff if they want,
um, and just, and then start kind of a little introduced into using reflection.
Uh, as a tool of, you know, making sure, like, do I really know what that means?
What does that mean to me?
Like, what does that mean to somebody else?
What does that mean for my profession?
Um, and so we introduce it there and then throughout the program,
they can kind of slowly work on it.
But the primary hub is, uh, I teach a dietetic, a senior seminar in dietetics.
It's a year long course in their senior year.
And it's at that point that we really dive deep into all the competencies.
We have group discussions and such.
Um, my students do a self assessment.
They go through, um, and rank themselves and whether or not they feel like they've
already met a specific competency.
Usually there's two things.
four or five that they say they still need some work.
They identify outside opportunities, webinars, working with another
organization, um, some other way that they work with me on figuring out how
they can better meet a competency.
And then they have, we have a one page, um, for each, you know, designated to each
competency in their ePortfolio where they upload any evidence that they might have.
that shows that they've met that competency, whether
that's a project or assignment.
Sometimes it's pictures of them volunteering somewhere, um,
you know, whatever it may be.
They write a description as far as like what that all, you know, you know,
what that's, their evidence entails, but then the bigger piece is that they
have to write a reflection on why they feel like they've met that competency.
So we have, I think there are, 26 or 30 competencies.
So it takes a while.
Um, and you know, they kind of take that whole year and I use the portfolio as
my means of not awarding a bachelor's degree, but of awarding that verification
statement from our accreditor.
That says, yes, you can move on into supervised practice.
Um, I've had students that then go on to utilize their portfolio.
They might tweak it a little bit, um, and they've used it to apply
to graduate school internships, if they're out of Alaska.
Um, so we try to, I don't want to say sell it, but, you know, try to say
like, hey, this isn't just, you know, it's just not a program assignment.
Maybe you never look at it again.
Who knows?
Um, but, you know, you can utilize it after.
So for us here at UAA, it is very important.
Very much kind of the, you know, it's, it's a thread throughout our entire
program, um, which is why it felt so normal, I guess, for us to utilize
it for our, to demonstrate that our program has met the accreditation
competencies that we have, you know, or standards that we had to meet.
Here's a preview of what's coming up next in part two of my conversation
with Amy Urbanus, assistant professor in the dietetics and nutrition program
at University of Alaska, Anchorage.
I always try to tell students that like you really can utilize, you know, portions
of or all of or whatever you can utilize.
A portfolio in providing you know, in sharing like your depth and breadth of
experience, even though in a resume, it may not jump out at, uh, um, you
know, at somebody, at somebody who's looking to hire somebody, um, you know,
in a resume may not jump out as like, you you know, you look at their work
experience, you're like, oh, okay, well.
You're pretty green, you know, it's like there's not a whole lot, but in
any portfolio, they might have done some amazing project that gives them an example
of what they're capable of, um, and how they might fit within their organizations.