WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript 

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.299
Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

00:00:02.379 --> 00:00:05.610
Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:07.360
Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:07.760
things.

00:00:21.770 --> 00:00:23.870
Sam: Hello and welcome
to The 10, 000 Things.

00:00:23.910 --> 00:00:24.700
My name is Sam

00:00:24.700 --> 00:00:25.110
Joe: Ellis.

00:00:25.340 --> 00:00:25.740
I'm Joe Loh.

00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:29.010
And I'm Ali Catramados.

00:00:29.010 --> 00:00:32.760
Today on the show, only posting about
shit that you have personal experience of.

00:00:33.850 --> 00:00:36.030
This came from a conversation
between me and Ali.

00:00:36.500 --> 00:00:40.655
Ali got a bit grumpy the other day and we
thought we'd talk about it on the show.

00:00:41.115 --> 00:00:42.115
Ali, over to you.

00:00:42.725 --> 00:00:48.595
Ali: Oh, I just, I was just having
a, a sook, and, and I absolutely have

00:00:48.595 --> 00:00:53.325
been, or could be guilty of doing this
as well, but just white middle class

00:00:53.325 --> 00:00:59.075
people posting stuff on social media
like, you know, political things and,

00:00:59.444 --> 00:01:03.124
you know, and I, I want to preface this
with, it's not coming, it's coming from

00:01:03.124 --> 00:01:06.534
a place of love usually, and it's, it's,
it's wanting to do the right thing.

00:01:06.544 --> 00:01:13.580
It's not, it's just more my, I suppose,
seeing people post stuff about experiences

00:01:13.580 --> 00:01:18.850
they don't have and how, and rather than,
my view is that rather than just flooding

00:01:18.850 --> 00:01:23.560
an already really noisy discourse, we
actually just need to shut the fuck up

00:01:23.580 --> 00:01:28.191
and make space for people who actually
have those lived experiences to, to be

00:01:28.191 --> 00:01:29.551
voicing their concerns and critiques.

00:01:30.711 --> 00:01:30.921
Sam: Yeah.

00:01:31.011 --> 00:01:33.346
So when you judge, you do it kindly.

00:01:34.206 --> 00:01:36.276
Ali: Yeah, I try to, I try to.

00:01:36.306 --> 00:01:38.606
Like, I try not to be an arsehole,
and I just, and I, like I said,

00:01:38.786 --> 00:01:41.546
most of the time it's really well
meaning, sometimes it's a little bit

00:01:41.546 --> 00:01:45.456
misguided, but sometimes it's just, I
also want to just say, yeah, shut the

00:01:45.456 --> 00:01:45.816
Sam: fuck up.

00:01:46.106 --> 00:01:49.836
Okay, so without naming any of your
friends or acquaintances, can we...

00:01:50.986 --> 00:01:52.113
Ali: They all do it, everyone does it.

00:01:52.113 --> 00:01:52.626
Everyone does it.

00:01:52.916 --> 00:01:56.346
Anyone who's got a social media
profile will see that you've got your

00:01:56.386 --> 00:01:59.546
serial offenders, but most people,
particularly at the moment when

00:01:59.546 --> 00:02:01.386
there's a lot going on in the world.

00:02:02.726 --> 00:02:05.076
Sam: Would you believe I've
said nothing about anything of

00:02:05.076 --> 00:02:06.536
consequence for quite a long time?

00:02:06.856 --> 00:02:09.166
Joe: Yeah, I learnt that too.

00:02:09.382 --> 00:02:11.282
I mean, Facebook's kind of dead.

00:02:11.432 --> 00:02:13.132
It's stumbling on, I guess, but...

00:02:13.672 --> 00:02:14.042
Oh,

00:02:14.042 --> 00:02:17.172
Sam: no, man, if you want to find
out how cooked the boomers are

00:02:17.172 --> 00:02:18.672
about No hang around on Facebook.

00:02:19.132 --> 00:02:19.482
I was going

00:02:19.482 --> 00:02:22.422
Ali: to say, yeah, like the
comments on an ABC article.

00:02:22.552 --> 00:02:22.622
I

00:02:22.622 --> 00:02:24.432
Joe: mean, that's true.

00:02:24.432 --> 00:02:26.042
I mean, that's true going to...

00:02:26.747 --> 00:02:30.167
Have a democracy with this huge
bulge of boomers and then you just

00:02:30.167 --> 00:02:33.347
ignore Facebook because it's not
cool and then you turn around and

00:02:33.857 --> 00:02:36.347
Yeah, things happen democratically
that you don't quite understand.

00:02:36.357 --> 00:02:39.207
Sam: Oh, no, no, no, the no vote
was no surprise to me because I've

00:02:39.207 --> 00:02:41.857
been on boomer book this whole
time keeping an eye on things.

00:02:41.997 --> 00:02:42.097
All

00:02:42.097 --> 00:02:44.277
Joe: right, so Facebook is
still somewhat relevant.

00:02:44.337 --> 00:02:44.747
Oh, hugely.

00:02:44.747 --> 00:02:47.657
Ali, you said I'm one of the few
people that still posts on there.

00:02:47.857 --> 00:02:48.507
Yeah, you do.

00:02:48.557 --> 00:02:49.907
But I don't do...

00:02:50.262 --> 00:02:54.742
I think I, I think I said something
about maybe Dan Andrews wasn't that bad.

00:02:54.932 --> 00:02:58.482
That's about my only political
post of the last year.

00:02:58.572 --> 00:02:59.012
Oh, did you?

00:02:59.012 --> 00:02:59.332
Sam: Yeah.

00:02:59.432 --> 00:03:00.422
But that's something like, I would say.

00:03:00.422 --> 00:03:04.172
Did you go out on a limb and say,
yeah, Dan Andrews is not that bad.

00:03:04.182 --> 00:03:04.702
Bloody hell.

00:03:04.832 --> 00:03:07.772
Ali: But I feel like people haven't
been, like, I think maybe 10 years

00:03:07.772 --> 00:03:11.382
ago, a lot of people were saying,
might've posted or made a post

00:03:11.382 --> 00:03:13.082
about that, whereas I feel like now.

00:03:13.082 --> 00:03:13.552
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:03:13.692 --> 00:03:14.402
Barely a handful.

00:03:14.632 --> 00:03:14.732
I think

00:03:14.732 --> 00:03:17.642
Joe: most of us have learned to
shut the fuck up on social media.

00:03:17.812 --> 00:03:21.932
Ali: Is it, is it our age and
our demographic or is it just

00:03:21.932 --> 00:03:24.412
that it's just no longer the
place to have those discussions?

00:03:24.682 --> 00:03:24.932
Are we

00:03:24.932 --> 00:03:28.712
Sam: all, are we all just over shouting
into the void, is that what it is?

00:03:28.962 --> 00:03:29.682
I think there's

00:03:29.682 --> 00:03:30.722
Ali: a lot of that.

00:03:30.732 --> 00:03:31.492
Or there's maybe even...

00:03:31.492 --> 00:03:31.632
So

00:03:31.632 --> 00:03:33.292
Joe: who are these people
that are still doing it?

00:03:33.292 --> 00:03:34.682
That's the, that's what I want to know.

00:03:35.497 --> 00:03:36.057
I just, I

00:03:36.067 --> 00:03:38.447
Ali: think it's, like I said, it's
well meaning people, like, and

00:03:38.457 --> 00:03:39.997
it's just like, you know, Hang on,

00:03:39.997 --> 00:03:40.327
Sam: spill.

00:03:40.347 --> 00:03:41.877
Are they a bit older or a bit younger?

00:03:41.877 --> 00:03:42.197
What are we talking?

00:03:42.197 --> 00:03:42.937
I'd say they're, well,

00:03:42.937 --> 00:03:43.647
Ali: they're my age.

00:03:43.707 --> 00:03:44.127
Right.

00:03:44.127 --> 00:03:44.547
Yeah.

00:03:45.237 --> 00:03:45.697
Sam: Okay.

00:03:45.737 --> 00:03:46.657
Fascinating stuff.

00:03:47.447 --> 00:03:49.477
Joe: And they're just doing
a bit of freelancing about

00:03:49.477 --> 00:03:51.097
some big political opinions.

00:03:51.557 --> 00:03:51.657
Yeah.

00:03:51.657 --> 00:03:53.127
And what you should think about them.

00:03:53.632 --> 00:03:57.912
Ali: And I think, and this is perhaps
my experience, and so for a little bit

00:03:57.912 --> 00:04:00.682
of background, I went to an all girls
school, a private all girls school.

00:04:01.322 --> 00:04:03.082
Um, our voices were very important.

00:04:03.102 --> 00:04:05.062
It was also very, uh,
you know, a very, um...

00:04:05.082 --> 00:04:10.082
Oh, we told you your voices were very
important and, you know, it was a

00:04:10.082 --> 00:04:12.437
very, I'd say, homogenous kind of...

00:04:12.437 --> 00:04:13.342
That was a lie!

00:04:13.342 --> 00:04:14.032
Yeah!

00:04:15.852 --> 00:04:17.772
Sam: I mean, it's a lie
on more than one level.

00:04:17.777 --> 00:04:17.937
Yeah.

00:04:18.077 --> 00:04:18.737
Uh, I mean

00:04:18.767 --> 00:04:21.702
Ali: mean yeah, but like, but that the,
the illusion that somehow, yeah, what

00:04:21.702 --> 00:04:23.142
we have to say is really important.

00:04:23.202 --> 00:04:23.442
Joe: Yeah.

00:04:23.447 --> 00:04:23.832
No, no.

00:04:23.832 --> 00:04:25.392
But they trained you to be articulate

00:04:25.392 --> 00:04:25.752
Sam: as well.

00:04:25.757 --> 00:04:25.937
Yes.

00:04:26.117 --> 00:04:26.712
No, no.

00:04:26.712 --> 00:04:30.192
Look, of course, but also
they probably, no, no.

00:04:30.197 --> 00:04:35.312
I don't wanna speak for you Ally,
but was there, was there a diversity

00:04:35.312 --> 00:04:38.492
of opinion that needed to be
safeguarded in, you know, or, or

00:04:38.492 --> 00:04:39.782
are we talking a fairly uniform?

00:04:39.782 --> 00:04:40.802
Ali: It was a pretty uniform.

00:04:41.537 --> 00:04:43.357
Um, sort of opinion.

00:04:43.507 --> 00:04:47.077
Um, like it was a fairly conservative
school, but I would say that the vast

00:04:47.077 --> 00:04:52.367
majority was sort of, I suppose, raised,
it was very much ingrained in us to

00:04:52.367 --> 00:04:53.797
have like a sense of social justice.

00:04:54.207 --> 00:04:56.987
That was very much part of like
the school, I would say curriculum.

00:04:56.987 --> 00:05:00.487
And so you've got a lot of,
a lot of those Anglican.

00:05:00.857 --> 00:05:04.167
So a lot of those women then went
off into the workforce and work.

00:05:04.627 --> 00:05:06.837
In, you know, these organizations,
you know, not for profits and,

00:05:06.837 --> 00:05:09.897
and, and have gone on to do amazing
work and do that in their work.

00:05:09.897 --> 00:05:13.467
And I'm not saying somebody like that not
speak, you know, speaking from, you know,

00:05:13.567 --> 00:05:16.737
an experience of what they're seeing in
their day to day and, you know, offer an

00:05:16.737 --> 00:05:21.502
insight into that, but I'm thinking just
more generally just, you know, as a middle

00:05:21.522 --> 00:05:27.687
class white person, what do we really
have To say as far as like say the voice.

00:05:27.687 --> 00:05:31.937
Yeah, you know, like should we
like I would be so I would I feel

00:05:31.937 --> 00:05:34.657
more comfortable deferring to First
Nations people to hear what they

00:05:34.657 --> 00:05:36.187
actually have to say because I

00:05:36.187 --> 00:05:38.937
Joe: feel like how many First
Nations people in your Facebook group

00:05:39.682 --> 00:05:40.642
Ali: Yeah, no, I'll take it.

00:05:40.782 --> 00:05:40.802
So

00:05:41.632 --> 00:05:43.152
Joe: this is the fatal flaw in your plan.

00:05:43.152 --> 00:05:47.022
Is that if your white middle class
friends stop posting, that just doesn't

00:05:47.022 --> 00:05:51.542
mean that suddenly your indigenous
and Palestinian friends start posting.

00:05:51.552 --> 00:05:52.382
They don't exist.

00:05:52.742 --> 00:05:54.602
So all that happens is there's no content.

00:05:54.762 --> 00:05:56.612
Which is maybe not a bad thing, but that's

00:05:56.612 --> 00:05:57.472
kind of the reality.

00:05:57.472 --> 00:06:01.092
Sam: The thing is, I don't, I don't need,
I don't look to friends for guidance

00:06:01.212 --> 00:06:02.542
on these sort of things, honestly.

00:06:02.582 --> 00:06:07.322
And like, I'm, and I don't need the
spokesperson for oppressed minority

00:06:07.322 --> 00:06:13.052
to be someone I actually know, I
verify or derive trust in other ways.

00:06:13.072 --> 00:06:17.572
And for example, the meta
algorithm on Instagram knows

00:06:17.572 --> 00:06:19.302
exactly what I want right now.

00:06:19.302 --> 00:06:20.902
And I'm not spending a long time on there.

00:06:21.562 --> 00:06:26.962
But it is like, it's, it's, it's
Orthodox Jewish person telling

00:06:26.962 --> 00:06:28.392
me the occupation needs to end.

00:06:28.862 --> 00:06:31.382
It's old Jewish professor telling
me the occupation needs to end.

00:06:31.702 --> 00:06:31.842
It

00:06:32.012 --> 00:06:34.002
Joe: knows where it out a bit.

00:06:34.172 --> 00:06:37.662
So there's only a few people posting
on Facebook really, and they've

00:06:37.662 --> 00:06:39.392
annoyed you a little bit, but whatever.

00:06:39.392 --> 00:06:41.582
They're not really taking up
a space that would be taken up

00:06:41.592 --> 00:06:43.942
by some mythical other person.

00:06:44.472 --> 00:06:46.852
But what about people sharing things?

00:06:47.027 --> 00:06:51.970
from decent sources about big
world, cause I suppose that's

00:06:51.970 --> 00:06:53.700
where my ick kicks in a little bit.

00:06:53.730 --> 00:06:59.010
It's like people sharing stuff
that's way beyond their pay grade

00:06:59.010 --> 00:07:00.120
of stuff they could ever really

00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:00.600
Sam: understand.

00:07:00.610 --> 00:07:03.740
Are you on the same page, you two, with
this rant that Ali went on with you?

00:07:05.365 --> 00:07:09.945
Joe: I roll my eyes on Instagram, where
I'm just there to post cute photos

00:07:09.945 --> 00:07:11.595
and see cute photos of cute people.

00:07:11.655 --> 00:07:12.085
Oh yeah.

00:07:12.125 --> 00:07:14.905
When there's some heavy duty
political stuff posted there.

00:07:15.025 --> 00:07:15.385
Yeah.

00:07:15.485 --> 00:07:18.515
From someone who is, you know, if...

00:07:18.805 --> 00:07:21.105
I remember I had a, I
had a girlfriend in 2020.

00:07:22.165 --> 00:07:25.955
And she was fucking smart, economist,
like, really switched on person.

00:07:25.955 --> 00:07:30.105
But there was some trend that went around
where it was like, Turkish women are

00:07:30.105 --> 00:07:32.865
being silenced, post a photo of yourself.

00:07:33.185 --> 00:07:35.775
And she posted a hot photo of
herself and all their friends.

00:07:36.285 --> 00:07:39.235
She was 32 or whatever,
she's a bit younger than me.

00:07:39.275 --> 00:07:40.415
Sam: I'm not mad about any of this.

00:07:41.075 --> 00:07:44.238
Joe: Yeah, but I was like, what's
with the, I said to her, what's with

00:07:44.238 --> 00:07:47.775
the posting the hot photo for the
Turkish women oppressed by Erdogan?

00:07:47.775 --> 00:07:49.275
And she's like, oh.

00:07:49.570 --> 00:07:51.220
It's just an excuse to post a hot photo.

00:07:52.010 --> 00:07:53.400
Hey, hey, come on.

00:07:53.430 --> 00:07:54.010
Like she was...

00:07:54.010 --> 00:07:54.810
Come on.

00:07:54.810 --> 00:07:55.360
I'm not saying she wasn't...

00:07:55.580 --> 00:07:57.210
She was smarter than me, you know.

00:07:57.210 --> 00:08:01.030
But like, but, but I had an ick
around that where I'm like, really?

00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:02.190
Ali: I have an ick about that.

00:08:02.190 --> 00:08:03.310
Or like, or

00:08:03.310 --> 00:08:04.300
Joe: like people who went...

00:08:04.300 --> 00:08:05.030
Sam's, Sam's fine with it.

00:08:05.110 --> 00:08:09.010
I remember during the, the,
the Black Lives Matters, like

00:08:09.070 --> 00:08:10.750
people all posted black tiles.

00:08:10.760 --> 00:08:11.090
Yeah.

00:08:11.110 --> 00:08:11.460
Sam: Sure.

00:08:11.760 --> 00:08:14.990
Joe: And I posted a photo of the
sandwich I was eating that day because

00:08:15.190 --> 00:08:16.550
it was pissing me off, you know?

00:08:16.670 --> 00:08:16.940
Sam: Okay.

00:08:16.950 --> 00:08:18.375
Joe: Because it's like, I don't...

00:08:19.125 --> 00:08:23.365
I never should have gone on Facebook
and ranted, and once I stopped

00:08:23.375 --> 00:08:27.515
drinking, I stopped doing that,
and it was a good move for my life.

00:08:28.255 --> 00:08:30.735
And the other week when I posted
something about Dan Andrews,

00:08:30.735 --> 00:08:33.905
it wasn't a long rant about how
amazing he was, it was just like...

00:08:34.235 --> 00:08:35.905
Oh, maybe he wasn't that bad.

00:08:35.995 --> 00:08:41.955
And that was only a response to a few
people like rejoicing him, him retiring.

00:08:41.965 --> 00:08:42.305
Right?

00:08:42.305 --> 00:08:43.885
It was a, it was a mild response.

00:08:43.935 --> 00:08:45.485
Sam: Come on, you knew
what you were getting into

00:08:45.485 --> 00:08:48.995
Joe: and I thought I might
start a fight and I did not.

00:08:49.005 --> 00:08:49.995
I was a fight on Facebook.

00:08:50.025 --> 00:08:51.605
I think it's those days are gone.

00:08:52.015 --> 00:08:55.315
Then Instagram, it's like,
wow, is it really the place?

00:08:55.555 --> 00:08:55.975
I don't know.

00:08:56.045 --> 00:08:59.725
That's, you know, like, I feel like
Twitter was, was that place if you,

00:08:59.725 --> 00:09:02.505
if you, and I was no good at Twitter,
so I didn't get anywhere with it.

00:09:02.655 --> 00:09:03.495
Sam: No, super confusing.

00:09:03.577 --> 00:09:05.257
Joe: so that was the place for politics.

00:09:05.257 --> 00:09:09.287
Facebook is a place to, to know
who's, who's birthdays, and what.

00:09:13.182 --> 00:09:16.192
How racist that guy went
to grade four is now.

00:09:16.202 --> 00:09:19.122
Sam: I've said this before, I love
seeing my dad's content on there

00:09:19.162 --> 00:09:21.272
and, you know, like stuff like that.

00:09:21.312 --> 00:09:27.142
And I, like I said, it gave me an
absolutely amazing insight into what the,

00:09:28.252 --> 00:09:31.032
I don't know, I guess over fifties and
sixties thought about the referendum.

00:09:31.082 --> 00:09:33.992
And man, there were lots of
passionate older people on both

00:09:33.992 --> 00:09:36.112
sides and for all sorts of reasons.

00:09:36.142 --> 00:09:41.220
And, Like, for example, my dad posted
many times about it, and I would not,

00:09:41.270 --> 00:09:45.220
and for the yes side, just to be clear,
and passionately supporting the yes side,

00:09:45.400 --> 00:09:49.898
and willing to take a little bit of heat
over it, and because he does have some

00:09:49.898 --> 00:09:51.948
mates that, you know, were pretty cross.

00:09:53.748 --> 00:10:00.688
He never posts anything ill considered,
even if it's outside of his experience.

00:10:00.688 --> 00:10:04.778
Joe: But in Ali's scheme of things, of
what this topic of this podcast is about,

00:10:04.848 --> 00:10:08.408
is if he doesn't have personal experience
of that shit, and that shit is being...

00:10:08.773 --> 00:10:09.443
Indigenous.

00:10:10.083 --> 00:10:10.933
Should he be posting?

00:10:11.003 --> 00:10:12.643
Under your regime, he would not be

00:10:12.643 --> 00:10:12.783
posting.

00:10:12.993 --> 00:10:17.493
Sam: No, no, but what he has his personal
experience of, you know, watching the

00:10:17.493 --> 00:10:21.393
Australian political system for a very,
very, very long time and reading, just

00:10:21.393 --> 00:10:25.463
reading a ton of news and current affairs,
like he's well rounded, none of, like

00:10:25.543 --> 00:10:28.383
he's in a position to repost an article.

00:10:28.688 --> 00:10:30.038
With a brief comment at the top,

00:10:30.098 --> 00:10:30.878
Joe: what I would say

00:10:32.198 --> 00:10:35.388
Ali: reposting, like sharing
an article or sharing, like say

00:10:35.388 --> 00:10:36.668
an opinion piece of somebody.

00:10:36.678 --> 00:10:36.958
Yeah.

00:10:36.958 --> 00:10:40.258
Like say for the, you know, he's a
First Nations person speaking to that.

00:10:40.268 --> 00:10:41.638
Sam: He's not centering himself.

00:10:41.948 --> 00:10:42.278
Ali: That's it.

00:10:42.278 --> 00:10:44.028
I think that's the thing is
in that, like you said, like.

00:10:44.563 --> 00:10:48.593
Your ex girlfriend, like she's posting
a photo of herself and making it about

00:10:48.593 --> 00:10:52.703
herself rather than, you know, people
taking selfies in front of these,

00:10:52.743 --> 00:10:55.063
like, or making it about themselves.

00:10:55.063 --> 00:10:55.513
It's a bit of a

00:10:55.513 --> 00:10:57.983
Nicky Wynmar thing, you know,
it's like, Hey, I'm Turkish.

00:10:57.983 --> 00:10:58.913
I'm beautiful.

00:10:58.923 --> 00:10:59.573
I'm brown.

00:10:59.583 --> 00:10:59.903
I'm here.

00:11:00.123 --> 00:11:00.633
Joe: No.

00:11:00.633 --> 00:11:02.248
Well, she was not Turkish, but Yeah.

00:11:02.253 --> 00:11:02.583
Yeah.

00:11:02.613 --> 00:11:05.133
Like I, I think it should be,
no, it wasn't just Turkish women.

00:11:05.133 --> 00:11:06.813
It was all women posted photo.

00:11:06.873 --> 00:11:08.793
It was just something that went around.

00:11:09.123 --> 00:11:09.333
Sam: Oh, weird.

00:11:09.483 --> 00:11:11.103
Joe: But those things go around a bit.

00:11:11.313 --> 00:11:11.808
Yeah, yeah.

00:11:11.943 --> 00:11:12.933
But she didn't care.

00:11:12.933 --> 00:11:15.903
Like she was totally self-aware that
the only reason she was doing it

00:11:15.903 --> 00:11:17.553
was to get a hot photo up, up there.

00:11:17.613 --> 00:11:17.823
Oh.

00:11:18.153 --> 00:11:18.493
Yeah.

00:11:18.593 --> 00:11:18.893
Okay.

00:11:18.933 --> 00:11:21.503
She didn't have any cringe about.

00:11:21.503 --> 00:11:25.523
Sam: So ali, this is like, this is like
the, the apex of the thing you're talking

00:11:25.523 --> 00:11:28.643
about, like putting yourself in the
middle of it and doing nothing useful.

00:11:28.713 --> 00:11:32.173
Ali: Absolutely nothing constructive,
useful, or, and I think, I think

00:11:32.173 --> 00:11:35.683
that's where I, I like, is this
contributing to the discourse

00:11:35.713 --> 00:11:37.383
in a meaningful or helpful way?

00:11:39.553 --> 00:11:41.168
That's where What goes around isn't

00:11:41.278 --> 00:11:41.538
Sam: guys.

00:11:41.568 --> 00:11:44.388
I just thought a hot photo of me
might help everyone calm down.

00:11:49.968 --> 00:11:51.818
Let's all just take a
moment and smell the roses.

00:11:51.818 --> 00:11:53.988
You know, appreciate, appreciate something

00:11:53.988 --> 00:11:54.468
beautiful.

00:11:55.278 --> 00:11:58.618
Joe: That's how I felt about my one,
my photo of a really nice sandwich

00:11:58.618 --> 00:12:00.508
during the, everyone else's black tiles.

00:12:00.518 --> 00:12:01.493
Sam: It's the same impulse.

00:12:01.813 --> 00:12:02.243
Joe: I don't know.

00:12:02.293 --> 00:12:02.853
Yeah, no, no, no.

00:12:03.593 --> 00:12:08.173
But, but yeah, maybe, so maybe Ali's
regime is a bit harsh and maybe

00:12:08.173 --> 00:12:11.253
your dad posting well considered
things is about stuff he does.

00:12:11.463 --> 00:12:15.283
What I would say is this though,
stuff that I have lived experience

00:12:15.303 --> 00:12:17.758
of, It's the powerful stuff.

00:12:17.758 --> 00:12:23.898
So when I've posted about sobriety or
mental illness, that's when I've got

00:12:23.908 --> 00:12:26.058
the most likes, the most engagement.

00:12:26.068 --> 00:12:30.108
That's when people contacted me
and said, I really moved them.

00:12:31.508 --> 00:12:35.738
Compared to my half baked political
opinions, and that's how I learned, and

00:12:35.738 --> 00:12:40.858
when we started this show, Sam, you have
a lot of fucking information in your

00:12:40.858 --> 00:12:45.018
brain about a lot of things and a lot
of current events and all of that, and I

00:12:45.048 --> 00:12:47.308
kept saying to you, we need to come back.

00:12:47.378 --> 00:12:51.628
to you being a Hare
Krishna, you having ADHD.

00:12:51.695 --> 00:12:54.365
when we got Alia, she's got
the bipolar, she's got the

00:12:54.365 --> 00:12:56.215
ADHD, the autism, all of that.

00:12:56.895 --> 00:12:57.425
Why?

00:12:57.465 --> 00:13:00.815
Not because what you might have to say
about the Middle East isn't interesting,

00:13:00.825 --> 00:13:02.565
but no one, you're not an expert.

00:13:02.565 --> 00:13:04.335
No one's looking to me for it.

00:13:04.615 --> 00:13:07.635
But you are an expert on
being raised Hare Krishna.

00:13:07.785 --> 00:13:11.395
I actually have been following that
region for quite a long time and fairly

00:13:11.395 --> 00:13:13.645
closely at times, but guess what?

00:13:13.755 --> 00:13:16.525
I've searched my soul and
I've not been able to find.

00:13:16.925 --> 00:13:20.045
A statement that I wanted to make,
and that I thought would be useful,

00:13:20.055 --> 00:13:20.505
and that's, that's, you know...

00:13:20.505 --> 00:13:23.135
No offence, no one's tuning
in for the Sam Ellis...

00:13:23.195 --> 00:13:24.235
No, no, but there might be...

00:13:24.245 --> 00:13:27.115
Like, Sam Ellis fixes
the Middle East podcast.

00:13:27.125 --> 00:13:27.265
Let

00:13:27.265 --> 00:13:28.845
Sam: me propose the...

00:13:29.210 --> 00:13:33.370
The grey area, like case by case
problem that we're actually facing

00:13:33.370 --> 00:13:36.860
in this conversation because I
would love to just adopt a shorthand

00:13:36.860 --> 00:13:40.660
like middle class white women be
quiet and then, and then obviously

00:13:40.670 --> 00:13:42.670
include myself in that basically,

00:13:43.020 --> 00:13:44.170
Ali: but it's just, it's not just women.

00:13:44.170 --> 00:13:45.730
I should, I should preface it.

00:13:45.730 --> 00:13:47.800
It's just like middle class
white people just need

00:13:48.030 --> 00:13:48.180
Sam: to be quiet.

00:13:48.530 --> 00:13:48.660
I think.

00:13:48.990 --> 00:13:49.310
Yeah.

00:13:49.310 --> 00:13:51.210
And there's probably a
lot of truth in that.

00:13:51.290 --> 00:13:52.720
And especially if.

00:13:53.330 --> 00:13:57.320
You know, they're well out of their
lane, and it's a strong take, and you

00:13:57.320 --> 00:14:00.860
know, it's lacking in detail, it's not
particularly well contextualized, etc.

00:14:01.060 --> 00:14:06.360
I'm 100 percent with you, but the real
issue is the lineball cases, and the,

00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:10.480
so, the Jesuits with their case by case
basis, we cannot, there's no universal

00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:13.880
principle we can adopt, we have to
case by case everything, which is like

00:14:13.880 --> 00:14:16.790
very tiresome, but it's, truly, it's
the only way to do things properly.

00:14:17.180 --> 00:14:20.470
And the problem for me is...

00:14:20.980 --> 00:14:27.440
where there is an ambiguity about where
everyone stands on a particular issue.

00:14:27.710 --> 00:14:32.110
And there are some, there are
some issues that do better if

00:14:32.110 --> 00:14:33.400
everyone reveals their hand.

00:14:33.870 --> 00:14:38.980
So if there's a body of feeling
that is not being stated about

00:14:38.980 --> 00:14:43.340
something, it can leave sort of
middle ground people in some doubt

00:14:43.420 --> 00:14:47.090
and then they may think, Oh, I don't.

00:14:47.620 --> 00:14:51.500
Yeah, basically sometimes there are
undecided peers that need guidance,

00:14:51.770 --> 00:14:52.600
and they actually are looking

00:14:53.570 --> 00:14:55.610
Ali: And like the, you
know, the silent majority

00:14:55.620 --> 00:14:57.100
Sam: is like No, they're
looking to the herd.

00:14:57.270 --> 00:15:00.430
Well, they may not be aware, for example,
you know, this happened in a staff

00:15:00.460 --> 00:15:04.220
meeting and I don't want to trigger
anyone, like, it's not the kind of thing

00:15:04.220 --> 00:15:08.350
I expected to hear, but basically I heard
some like, very libelous rhetoric about

00:15:08.380 --> 00:15:10.680
trans people, like, in a staff meeting.

00:15:10.690 --> 00:15:12.810
And so like, this is a context.

00:15:13.160 --> 00:15:17.440
Where I'm going to take to Facebook
and like subtweet like what went on

00:15:17.450 --> 00:15:22.890
the meeting, but what I am going to do
is I'm going to put my hand up and I'm

00:15:22.890 --> 00:15:27.170
going to make a two minute statement
that compacts the things that they need.

00:15:27.730 --> 00:15:30.720
Anyone who's in that meeting who's
undecided about whether this is

00:15:31.220 --> 00:15:33.410
It's safe, or non libelous content.

00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:36.750
I just need to dispel that illusion
immediately, and I need everyone to

00:15:36.750 --> 00:15:41.110
know the facts, and to understand
that if you pursue this rhetoric,

00:15:41.110 --> 00:15:43.810
not only is it dangerous for trans
people, it's actually counterproductive

00:15:43.820 --> 00:15:46.060
for women as well, in every sense.

00:15:46.220 --> 00:15:47.370
Within the staff meeting.

00:15:47.410 --> 00:15:47.690
Yeah.

00:15:47.730 --> 00:15:48.840
To 20 people.

00:15:48.970 --> 00:15:49.070
Yeah.

00:15:49.260 --> 00:15:49.950
Because there was...

00:15:50.150 --> 00:15:51.940
Joe: So let me ask you this.

00:15:51.940 --> 00:15:54.260
So I'm not Sorry, Ali, I'm yeah, no, I

00:15:54.260 --> 00:15:57.570
Ali: was just going to say like with the,
but having that, like having conversations

00:15:57.690 --> 00:16:01.330
as they happen, having those discussions,
white people talking amongst themselves,

00:16:01.380 --> 00:16:05.480
that absolutely, I'm not, I was just
talking more, I suppose, in the public

00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:09.730
forum, but I think absolutely appropriate,
you know, in that, you know, situation.

00:16:09.760 --> 00:16:10.020
Yeah.

00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:10.200
And

00:16:10.330 --> 00:16:13.830
Sam: of course it is a public forum,
but it's like a very small public forum.

00:16:14.060 --> 00:16:17.380
And like, for me, I'd make that
as like, that's a clearly in.

00:16:17.660 --> 00:16:19.300
Okay, so that's not a lineball, right?

00:16:19.470 --> 00:16:22.190
So the lineball's somewhere
between that and like...

00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:24.200
Okay, let me tell you what's in my mind.

00:16:24.610 --> 00:16:26.690
The thing that I imagine sometimes is...

00:16:27.090 --> 00:16:31.020
There's someone undecided out
there, and just the right two

00:16:31.020 --> 00:16:32.790
sentences could come their way.

00:16:32.920 --> 00:16:33.670
Joe: That's an illusion.

00:16:33.700 --> 00:16:34.120
And could...

00:16:34.390 --> 00:16:37.800
How many minds do you think have ever
been changed, or have been changed by

00:16:37.800 --> 00:16:39.490
social media in the last ten years?

00:16:39.520 --> 00:16:39.840
Well, I've got...

00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:42.460
Maybe at the start, when people
were listening, but people...

00:16:44.540 --> 00:16:44.890
Sam: I've got

00:16:45.310 --> 00:16:48.590
Joe: many examples from My online
contribution to the yes campaign was

00:16:48.590 --> 00:16:52.290
taking a photo of my dear old mum,
handing out how to votes for the

00:16:52.290 --> 00:16:58.140
yes campaign, and posting, here's my
mum, the lefty ratbag, handing out

00:16:58.140 --> 00:16:58.970
how to votes for the yes campaign.

00:16:58.980 --> 00:17:01.460
That was my one statement
on the yes campaign.

00:17:01.780 --> 00:17:04.030
But I do not, do not

00:17:04.455 --> 00:17:08.495
ever think that I will change a
single person's mind on social media.

00:17:08.565 --> 00:17:09.155
Yeah, okay.

00:17:09.175 --> 00:17:13.615
Well, I think that you don't actually
that's a dry gully and I think I

00:17:14.005 --> 00:17:18.755
Sam: think overall you might be right,
but there are marginal cases but also I

00:17:18.755 --> 00:17:22.302
don't know I want to disagree with you
your model about human decision making

00:17:22.302 --> 00:17:27.422
is incomplete and that for people forget
all the times they've changed their

00:17:27.422 --> 00:17:31.387
minds like and I've said this before on
the pod There's a whole science to this.

00:17:31.667 --> 00:17:35.557
Basically, we heal over the scars and,
like, maintain this illusion that we've

00:17:35.557 --> 00:17:37.067
been the same person the whole time.

00:17:37.117 --> 00:17:41.057
Which is, like, a bad concept to
carry around for lots of reasons.

00:17:41.197 --> 00:17:44.547
Like, it gets in the way of psychological
progress quite apart from anything else.

00:17:45.387 --> 00:17:49.319
But also, it means that we would
be convinced that we'll never

00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:51.659
change anyone else's mind and
no one's ever changed our mind.

00:17:51.709 --> 00:17:53.419
But, like, I can think of many occasions.

00:17:53.646 --> 00:17:56.584
Where I came across the right content,
not necessarily from a friend, but

00:17:56.584 --> 00:18:01.416
like, the algo, And it changed my
perspective almost immediately.

00:18:01.466 --> 00:18:04.656
Like, this has happened many
times, but maybe I'm weird

00:18:04.716 --> 00:18:05.356
Joe: and different.

00:18:05.416 --> 00:18:08.901
Yeah, I mean I'm, I'm
wider, I'm too susceptible.

00:18:08.941 --> 00:18:13.066
I, I'll basically take on whole, like
I've spoken about it before, I'll

00:18:13.066 --> 00:18:15.856
read one blogger for a month and then
I'll just have all their opinions.

00:18:15.926 --> 00:18:16.986
Yeah, I'm wide open.

00:18:16.986 --> 00:18:18.396
I'm completely open.

00:18:18.458 --> 00:18:18.728
yeah.

00:18:18.818 --> 00:18:21.518
You know, I'm a completely
open field for other people's

00:18:21.518 --> 00:18:24.278
opinions and I, the one thing I've
learned is to watch out for that.

00:18:24.338 --> 00:18:24.518
Yeah.

00:18:24.848 --> 00:18:26.048
and I can't switch it off.

00:18:26.048 --> 00:18:30.908
So what I do is folk try and be
really aware of what I'm taking in,

00:18:30.913 --> 00:18:34.718
if I'm taking in too much of one
thing, which, like, I, I've, I stopped

00:18:34.808 --> 00:18:37.718
reading some of these, these two
bloggers that I spent a year reading.

00:18:37.723 --> 00:18:37.873
Mm-Hmm.

00:18:38.528 --> 00:18:39.578
That was time for a change anyway.

00:18:39.578 --> 00:18:39.968
Yeah.

00:18:39.973 --> 00:18:42.908
And, and the year, the years before
that, I, I spent a couple of years

00:18:42.908 --> 00:18:44.288
reading The Economist and I had these.

00:18:44.818 --> 00:18:48.948
Incredibly articulate, centrist
positions on everything, because

00:18:48.948 --> 00:18:50.278
that's what all I was reading.

00:18:51.128 --> 00:18:58.298
And, yeah, so, it's like, so I'm wide
open, I just don't know if, how open,

00:18:58.358 --> 00:19:03.788
and maybe you're right, but Ali When
these people are posting their middle

00:19:03.788 --> 00:19:08.458
class white stuff, is it sparking debates
that you can see in the comments and

00:19:08.458 --> 00:19:10.348
then things are getting worked out?

00:19:11.068 --> 00:19:12.748
No, it's mostly getting ignored.

00:19:12.908 --> 00:19:13.078
Or

00:19:13.528 --> 00:19:14.028
Ali: or boy or whatever?

00:19:14.038 --> 00:19:15.348
Yeah, or just mostly getting ignored.

00:19:16.618 --> 00:19:17.148
I would say.

00:19:17.178 --> 00:19:17.658
Yeah.

00:19:17.658 --> 00:19:17.868
Yeah.

00:19:17.868 --> 00:19:18.148
Sam: Yeah.

00:19:18.148 --> 00:19:22.398
And look, I think if a lot of it gets
treated with the contempt it deserves,

00:19:22.468 --> 00:19:25.838
and I'm including my own comments
here a lot of the time, and you know,

00:19:25.868 --> 00:19:29.658
just it, something being ignored
is way more hurtful than getting a

00:19:29.668 --> 00:19:33.738
pile on even like, you know, and it
does send the message eventually.

00:19:33.837 --> 00:19:36.662
but you know, there were times,
yeah, look, I'm not going to claim

00:19:36.662 --> 00:19:39.532
to have an enormous track record
of like rescuing drowning puppies

00:19:39.532 --> 00:19:41.232
here or anything, but I do think.

00:19:41.334 --> 00:19:44.034
Um, I do think I've thrown a
couple of starfish back, you

00:19:44.034 --> 00:19:45.404
know, like, and that's about it.

00:19:45.444 --> 00:19:47.864
Like I've put a lot of work
in and it's not a lot to

00:19:47.864 --> 00:19:48.124
Joe: show.

00:19:48.164 --> 00:19:53.984
Have you ever posted about your own
struggles with, say ADHD on Facebook?

00:19:53.994 --> 00:19:54.314
No.

00:19:55.099 --> 00:19:55.669
No, no, no.

00:19:56.149 --> 00:19:58.499
Have you ever seen what impact
you could have by revealing

00:19:58.499 --> 00:19:59.789
some vulnerability rather than

00:19:59.899 --> 00:20:00.639
Sam: being an expert on things?

00:20:00.639 --> 00:20:00.839
No, no, no.

00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:02.259
I've been vulnerable in a different way.

00:20:02.289 --> 00:20:05.979
And actually, now that you mention
it, the one thing I could mention

00:20:06.159 --> 00:20:09.839
as a listener of the show, Craig,
there's one thing I wanted to mention.

00:20:09.919 --> 00:20:13.079
I didn't really change his
mind about a particular issue.

00:20:13.329 --> 00:20:16.949
It was more just like
a shift in perspective.

00:20:17.834 --> 00:20:23.274
That he was ready for anyway, and then
I say something and it like, it just, it

00:20:23.354 --> 00:20:28.594
forms a small piece of like a change in
the heart that was taking place anyway.

00:20:28.654 --> 00:20:30.284
And other people have
done that for me, right?

00:20:30.284 --> 00:20:33.094
And that's what, that's kind of the
thing I'm more interested in is change

00:20:33.094 --> 00:20:36.640
of heart anyway, rather than change of
mind, if you can separate those two.

00:20:37.090 --> 00:20:41.770
But I didn't know this at the time, but
yeah, he said years later, you know, just.

00:20:42.430 --> 00:20:44.210
I can't even remember what the issue
was, it might have been Brexit or

00:20:44.210 --> 00:20:46.900
something, and obviously feelings were
high, he's Australian, he lives over

00:20:46.900 --> 00:20:48.870
there, hasn't done for a very long time.

00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:53.000
And, you know, he was, like a lot
of people at the time, struggling

00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:56.940
with the outcome of that decision,
and, kind of like we are now.

00:20:58.650 --> 00:21:01.850
And I think I said something
that just made him feel less

00:21:01.910 --> 00:21:03.200
cross and less hopeless.

00:21:03.350 --> 00:21:08.230
And just little by little, it kind of,
it was a perspective that he took on.

00:21:08.350 --> 00:21:12.596
And it's not one I've always lived by
myself, but it was kind of along the lines

00:21:12.596 --> 00:21:17.036
of, yes, we can and probably should be
mad at the really cynical people who were

00:21:17.036 --> 00:21:22.256
spreading lies in Brexit, but I don't know
how mad we should be at Kind of the little

00:21:22.256 --> 00:21:27.636
people, you know, the kind of small R
racists who are just kind of shit kickers.

00:21:27.726 --> 00:21:28.526
I don't know how much,

00:21:28.936 --> 00:21:31.576
Ali: but that's how much, how much, yeah.

00:21:31.586 --> 00:21:34.806
What you're going to say is going
to, it's like, yeah, I would use the

00:21:34.806 --> 00:21:36.626
argument of like, you know, talking to.

00:21:37.036 --> 00:21:40.756
So you're trying to convince my
conservative boomer parents of something

00:21:40.766 --> 00:21:46.116
it is like against a brick wall right like
it is it's like there's there's gonna be

00:21:46.116 --> 00:21:50.956
so people just dug in with their opinions
that you just no matter what you say it's

00:21:50.956 --> 00:21:54.183
not going to they're not gonna change
have a change of heart or a change of mind

00:21:55.613 --> 00:21:59.818
Joe: I wouldn't no there's no nuance
either and that's what Like a format

00:21:59.818 --> 00:22:05.218
like this is much better to us
because we talk a lot of shit, but

00:22:05.218 --> 00:22:08.198
like, yeah, to listen to someone
in depth for an hour and a half.

00:22:08.468 --> 00:22:09.458
I know you're a big fan of that.

00:22:10.428 --> 00:22:12.428
That's, that's, that's
the experiences I've had.

00:22:12.428 --> 00:22:15.886
If I've, if I've spent an hour
really listening to someone, that's,

00:22:16.076 --> 00:22:17.636
that's changed things for me.

00:22:17.756 --> 00:22:22.141
Um, What I would say is that maybe
Ali's gone a little bit hard.

00:22:22.831 --> 00:22:27.281
But I would say that if people want
to actually connect with what they're

00:22:27.741 --> 00:22:33.501
putting out into the world in whatever
format, be vulnerable, make it about

00:22:33.501 --> 00:22:37.971
your personal experience, your lived
experience, and stick to things

00:22:37.971 --> 00:22:42.901
that you actually are somewhat of an
expert in, and you will get traction.

00:22:42.981 --> 00:22:48.061
If you just add fucking bullshit
to a bullshit fire, then

00:22:48.121 --> 00:22:50.271
like, you know, it's, it's...

00:22:51.156 --> 00:22:55.096
Yeah, like it's just not gonna,
it's just gonna do what you're

00:22:55.096 --> 00:22:57.606
talking about, which is you post
something, everyone ignores it.

00:22:58.001 --> 00:23:02.611
You feel a bit crap, you haven't even,
like, what have you achieved, you know?

00:23:02.901 --> 00:23:06.451
Ali: There's better use of your time,
is what I feel, but like, like you,

00:23:06.451 --> 00:23:11.451
Joe, like I similarly, the very few
times I've ever spoken about anything,

00:23:11.731 --> 00:23:15.291
I suppose, mental health related on
social media, and it's not often, like

00:23:15.291 --> 00:23:18.241
I don't put a lot out there, but the
few times, that's when I've had the

00:23:18.241 --> 00:23:21.451
most meaningful, I suppose, feedback or
people message me then directly about

00:23:21.451 --> 00:23:25.301
stuff, and I think, yeah, because it's
coming from a place of experience,

00:23:25.341 --> 00:23:27.641
like, and I think those things.

00:23:28.316 --> 00:23:32.556
Yeah, I would write, I would search
out experiences like that and, and

00:23:32.646 --> 00:23:35.806
I suppose voices from friends or
people who are experiencing things

00:23:36.186 --> 00:23:40.306
directly, rather than, you know, just
a white person speaking for everyone.

00:23:40.516 --> 00:23:40.626
But

00:23:40.626 --> 00:23:44.136
Joe: then there's the other cringe
and people find it cringe if people

00:23:44.136 --> 00:23:49.136
share about mental health on Facebook,
you know, and, but it just depends.

00:23:49.136 --> 00:23:51.796
Like if the share on mental
health on Facebook is.

00:23:52.566 --> 00:23:54.736
When the people don't do it
anymore, but they did 10 years

00:23:54.736 --> 00:23:56.696
ago, oh, having a down day today.

00:23:57.006 --> 00:23:57.446
Oh, you see, and I

00:23:57.486 --> 00:24:00.426
Ali: didn't, that wasn't so, yeah, no,
no, I see, it wasn't stuff like that,

00:24:00.486 --> 00:24:02.426
but like, I might, but like, yeah.

00:24:02.427 --> 00:24:04.846
Joe: It's gotta be, like, a bit of a
story, it's gotta be a bit of a narrative.

00:24:04.886 --> 00:24:05.186
Yeah, there's gotta be

00:24:05.186 --> 00:24:07.916
Ali: something to it, like, I
did something at New Year's last

00:24:07.916 --> 00:24:09.066
year, like, I just sort of was...

00:24:09.396 --> 00:24:12.821
You know, like a little personal wrap
up of what was quite an unhinged year

00:24:12.821 --> 00:24:16.356
for me personally and like a lot of
people reached out and messaged me about

00:24:16.356 --> 00:24:19.906
that and I just wanted to say thank you
to some people that, you know, that's

00:24:20.006 --> 00:24:23.546
one of the very few times I've ever
posted on Facebook in recent memory.

00:24:23.776 --> 00:24:24.056
Yeah,

00:24:24.516 --> 00:24:27.596
Joe: and I think you're someone that
people would say, it's like all the

00:24:27.596 --> 00:24:29.246
people that write into us constantly.

00:24:29.426 --> 00:24:33.386
to tell us to stop interrupting you
and we have meetings about it and

00:24:33.386 --> 00:24:37.366
we try and do it and whatever but
you're just so much more polite than

00:24:37.366 --> 00:24:38.606
me and Sam that it's quite hard.

00:24:40.116 --> 00:24:42.816
I think that you're someone
that people think you have a

00:24:42.816 --> 00:24:44.116
good perspective on things.

00:24:44.196 --> 00:24:44.646
Yeah, agreed.

00:24:44.646 --> 00:24:48.006
I mean, listeners to the show have written
in and said the same thing, so people

00:24:48.056 --> 00:24:50.016
want to hear more from you, you know.

00:24:50.206 --> 00:24:50.636
It's true.

00:24:50.686 --> 00:24:54.826
But you don't sit there thinking Oh,
the way to, you know, give people

00:24:54.826 --> 00:24:58.776
more of what's in my head is just to
post about whatever's in the news.

00:24:59.106 --> 00:25:01.516
Like you've actually got
this format now and...

00:25:02.496 --> 00:25:05.356
Sam: Yeah, okay, I think, look, I
think I guess it's useful to say...

00:25:06.471 --> 00:25:11.441
If it's all getting filtered through,
like if your statement is really just

00:25:12.161 --> 00:25:16.981
kind of just a pale echo of whatever
the narrative is in the mainstream media

00:25:16.981 --> 00:25:20.461
on that particular day, or even just,
no, no, sorry, I'm going to introduce

00:25:20.461 --> 00:25:26.171
a fancy term, whatever the dominant
narratives are in the information space

00:25:26.281 --> 00:25:28.401
at that time, don't talk about media.

00:25:28.641 --> 00:25:29.761
It's an information space.

00:25:30.111 --> 00:25:31.821
Okay, that's a thing I learned on

00:25:31.821 --> 00:25:32.191
Joe: the weekend.

00:25:32.241 --> 00:25:34.461
I've been talking about the
information environment, but

00:25:34.461 --> 00:25:37.361
only for the last week or two.

00:25:37.391 --> 00:25:39.901
Someone, someone did
ask my opinion on the...

00:25:40.110 --> 00:25:40.980
on the referendum.

00:25:40.980 --> 00:25:44.690
And I said, I think it has a lot to
say about our information environment.

00:25:44.750 --> 00:25:45.130
Yeah.

00:25:45.270 --> 00:25:45.530
Big time.

00:25:45.610 --> 00:25:46.530
That's what I think.

00:25:47.020 --> 00:25:47.050
Yep.

00:25:47.130 --> 00:25:48.570
I think it's a referendum on that.

00:25:48.570 --> 00:25:49.610
Because so confused.

00:25:49.620 --> 00:25:49.870
Yep.

00:25:49.890 --> 00:25:50.500
Big time.

00:25:50.710 --> 00:25:53.850
Uh, I think it was like, how's
your information environment?

00:25:53.890 --> 00:25:54.760
Oh, it's poor.

00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:55.110
It's

00:25:55.110 --> 00:25:55.560
Sam: cooked.

00:25:55.740 --> 00:25:56.000
Joe: Yeah.

00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:56.270
Yeah.

00:25:56.290 --> 00:26:00.014
So, you know, which is no joke,
but if you didn't laugh, you know.

00:26:00.534 --> 00:26:00.954
Uh,

00:26:01.304 --> 00:26:01.654
Sam: yeah.

00:26:01.654 --> 00:26:03.424
No, it is, it is funny to me because.

00:26:03.609 --> 00:26:06.439
I've been living with this knowledge
for a really, really long time.

00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:07.189
But you know what

00:26:07.629 --> 00:26:12.529
Joe: happened at the last
federal election was...

00:26:16.414 --> 00:26:21.024
Somehow dropped into the information
environment was Skomo is a dickhead,

00:26:22.024 --> 00:26:25.284
and then that just spread like
wildfire and that was it because

00:26:25.344 --> 00:26:27.234
Sam: clearly it was helicoptered in by

00:26:27.234 --> 00:26:30.174
Joe: headquarters, not a progressive
country looking to do progressive

00:26:30.194 --> 00:26:33.584
things for some reason people
just decided to vote against

00:26:33.924 --> 00:26:35.344
Morrison all of a sudden, right?

00:26:35.779 --> 00:26:38.409
If you look at the referendum,
we're not a progressive

00:26:38.439 --> 00:26:38.859
Sam: country.

00:26:38.989 --> 00:26:40.069
No, no, no, no.

00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:40.649
See, that's not...

00:26:41.209 --> 00:26:41.479
So what

00:26:41.489 --> 00:26:43.989
Joe: happened in the same
intervention environment, you

00:26:43.989 --> 00:26:45.829
elected a Labor government, but how?

00:26:45.939 --> 00:26:49.519
That's what the referendum
got me wondering.

00:26:49.589 --> 00:26:52.939
Sam: Well, you're averaging a bunch
of stuff here and then concluding

00:26:52.939 --> 00:26:53.939
that everything's in the middle.

00:26:53.959 --> 00:26:54.949
That's not how it works.

00:26:55.219 --> 00:26:58.909
Like, there are plenty of extreme
positions in this country, progressive,

00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:03.779
anti, like, reactionary, and then there's
a real rainbow spectrum in between.

00:27:04.659 --> 00:27:08.459
So it's not that there's no appetite
for progressive action in this

00:27:08.459 --> 00:27:11.649
country, but it is It's inchoate.

00:27:11.679 --> 00:27:14.619
The energies aren't being directed
in any particular direction.

00:27:14.629 --> 00:27:16.349
So that's the main issue that I see.

00:27:16.449 --> 00:27:16.599
What

00:27:16.599 --> 00:27:17.309
Joe: does inchoate

00:27:17.959 --> 00:27:18.159
Sam: mean?

00:27:18.199 --> 00:27:20.639
Oh, it hasn't started
to, it's not lumping.

00:27:20.639 --> 00:27:22.719
It's like incoherent.

00:27:22.719 --> 00:27:22.869
Yeah, inchoate.

00:27:22.879 --> 00:27:24.129
It's not lumping together.

00:27:24.239 --> 00:27:24.489
Right.

00:27:24.489 --> 00:27:25.619
It's incoherent and inchoate.

00:27:25.639 --> 00:27:31.199
It's not, like, basically, social
movements happen when, this is going

00:27:31.199 --> 00:27:34.299
to go against everything we've just
said to a degree, social movements

00:27:34.299 --> 00:27:39.199
happen when people, instead of just
reacting to headlines and having a hot

00:27:39.209 --> 00:27:44.924
take, So it's half of what you guys
said and half of what I'm saying, that

00:27:45.184 --> 00:27:50.084
the herd makes decisions, believe it
or not, by listening to what everyone

00:27:50.084 --> 00:27:54.284
is saying, and maybe even disagreeing
with an awful lot of what they're

00:27:54.284 --> 00:27:58.284
hearing, but then seeing, oh, all their
heads are starting to point this way.

00:27:58.294 --> 00:27:58.544
Yeah.

00:27:58.584 --> 00:27:59.724
And when about 60...

00:27:59.999 --> 00:28:03.249
55, 60 percent of the heads
start pointing one way.

00:28:03.249 --> 00:28:04.059
Guess what happens?

00:28:04.109 --> 00:28:04.399
The herd

00:28:04.509 --> 00:28:04.629
Joe: goes there.

00:28:04.629 --> 00:28:06.989
How else can you go from
Obama to Trump, right?

00:28:07.029 --> 00:28:07.289
Yeah.

00:28:07.339 --> 00:28:07.639
Yeah.

00:28:09.089 --> 00:28:09.479
No.

00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:14.659
And, and, but the funny thing is
in your herd or in, like in mine in

00:28:14.659 --> 00:28:17.799
Footscray or in yours here in Thornberry
and yours in Preston, we're talking

00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:20.329
like 90 percent of people voting yes.

00:28:20.329 --> 00:28:20.569
Right.

00:28:21.029 --> 00:28:22.229
If you look at the polling booths.

00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:22.519
Yeah.

00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:22.719
Yeah.

00:28:22.729 --> 00:28:26.119
So we're in this, but, but see,
I know that I'm in the bubble.

00:28:26.574 --> 00:28:26.844
Yeah.

00:28:27.014 --> 00:28:30.574
So, and I have kicked against it
somewhat by becoming a bit more centrist.

00:28:31.069 --> 00:28:31.299
Yeah.

00:28:31.299 --> 00:28:35.169
Cause I'm so sick of everyone having
the same fucking opinion on everything.

00:28:35.179 --> 00:28:35.209
No, that's fair.

00:28:35.209 --> 00:28:35.759
That's fair.

00:28:35.869 --> 00:28:41.879
But I also find other people's opinions,
like outside the bubble, completely toxic.

00:28:41.889 --> 00:28:43.009
Why don't you just go far right?

00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:44.369
Sam: Really differentiate yourself.

00:28:44.369 --> 00:28:45.399
You have alt right, Joe.

00:28:46.659 --> 00:28:49.099
Joe: Well, yeah, I mean, I've
flirted with the alt right.

00:28:49.129 --> 00:28:49.649
Yeah, you have.

00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:51.606
Like, at times, It's

00:28:51.616 --> 00:28:52.026
Sam: there to be

00:28:52.026 --> 00:28:52.616
Joe: flirted with.

00:28:52.706 --> 00:28:53.686
That's what it's for.

00:28:53.686 --> 00:28:54.446
And the herd thing.

00:28:54.446 --> 00:28:55.206
It's like, oh

00:28:55.206 --> 00:28:55.566
Ali: man.

00:28:55.666 --> 00:28:56.506
You just want to be a rebel.

00:28:56.506 --> 00:28:59.076
It's just like, it's
just rebelling against

00:28:59.226 --> 00:28:59.526
Joe: like...

00:28:59.526 --> 00:29:00.046
No, but it's contrarian.

00:29:00.096 --> 00:29:03.226
I know a few people who are
just contrarians on everything.

00:29:03.426 --> 00:29:03.656
It's,

00:29:04.106 --> 00:29:04.566
Sam: it's...

00:29:04.636 --> 00:29:06.596
If they detect a majority
emerging, they go

00:29:06.876 --> 00:29:07.146
Joe: the other way.

00:29:07.386 --> 00:29:10.876
Northgate and voted no, did
it purely to be a contrarian.

00:29:10.876 --> 00:29:11.086
Sure.

00:29:11.086 --> 00:29:11.506
Or possibly.

00:29:11.506 --> 00:29:17.266
Like they found some marginal position
that they could then secretly go and...

00:29:19.331 --> 00:29:19.461
And

00:29:19.461 --> 00:29:19.811
Sam: you know what?

00:29:20.751 --> 00:29:24.661
And quite a few people voted no
because they thought that a lot

00:29:24.661 --> 00:29:25.701
of other people were going to.

00:29:26.141 --> 00:29:30.111
And they want to back the winning side
and they're not really that invested.

00:29:30.411 --> 00:29:33.171
And that's why News Corp ran so hard.

00:29:33.571 --> 00:29:35.921
on Aussies don't want this,
Aussies don't want this.

00:29:35.961 --> 00:29:37.571
That's what they said
from the very beginning.

00:29:37.661 --> 00:29:41.121
And I remember hearing an analysis
basically 18 months ago, a

00:29:41.121 --> 00:29:44.971
communication strategist saying,
here's what I'm thinking right now

00:29:44.971 --> 00:29:47.901
if I'm yes, here's what I'm thinking
right now if I'm the no campaign.

00:29:48.091 --> 00:29:51.161
They need to go, they can't
go too hard on the anger.

00:29:51.721 --> 00:29:56.141
They need to mainly emphasize
nothing in it for you and

00:29:56.141 --> 00:29:57.331
everyone else is thinking no.

00:29:57.666 --> 00:30:00.796
So just stick to those two messages,
which is what they basically did,

00:30:01.446 --> 00:30:04.586
and then provide a little bit of
permission in the form of, this

00:30:04.586 --> 00:30:06.066
won't really help blackfellas anyway.

00:30:06.076 --> 00:30:11.276
So they gave them those three things, and
just did it very consistently, and then

00:30:11.276 --> 00:30:16.906
we had KUKA, far right, genuine Nazi stuff
starting to come in as well on Sky News.

00:30:17.286 --> 00:30:17.306
So

00:30:17.366 --> 00:30:17.386
Joe: yeah.

00:30:17.386 --> 00:30:21.636
My uninformed take is it became very much
upper middle class, inner city liberals.

00:30:22.176 --> 00:30:23.051
A, a issue.

00:30:23.231 --> 00:30:24.341
It looked like that to me.

00:30:24.341 --> 00:30:24.701
Yeah.

00:30:24.731 --> 00:30:26.171
From somewhat outside of that class.

00:30:26.171 --> 00:30:26.776
I wasn was strongly invested in it class.

00:30:27.011 --> 00:30:27.221
Yeah.

00:30:27.281 --> 00:30:27.701
I wasn't.

00:30:27.701 --> 00:30:30.761
And you know, I remember we were at a
party a couple of weeks out and I'm one of

00:30:30.761 --> 00:30:32.576
these treaty s we were joking about Yeah.

00:30:33.581 --> 00:30:35.441
We were joking about
someone having a a Yes.

00:30:35.441 --> 00:30:37.241
Sign out the front because
they're middle class.

00:30:37.301 --> 00:30:40.451
Well it and that the yes sign
became, I'm part of the upper middle

00:30:40.451 --> 00:30:43.631
class . It made you, and that's
not a majority in this country.

00:30:43.631 --> 00:30:44.656
Sam: That's not a majority.

00:30:44.656 --> 00:30:46.151
This is what I'm saying, this herd thing.

00:30:46.386 --> 00:30:52.116
It affects freethinkers like you and me,
just as much as it affects the masses.

00:30:52.276 --> 00:30:53.536
This is what I'm saying.

00:30:53.586 --> 00:30:56.056
I felt that same shame
about putting up a yes sign.

00:30:56.076 --> 00:30:59.106
I'm like, this is not where the herd's at.

00:30:59.136 --> 00:30:59.426
It was

00:31:00.586 --> 00:31:01.116
Joe: a political

00:31:01.116 --> 00:31:01.756
Sam: disaster.

00:31:02.506 --> 00:31:03.176
And I knew it was.

00:31:03.616 --> 00:31:05.776
I saw it coming from, I don't
mean to sound like such a smart

00:31:05.786 --> 00:31:07.986
ass, but the whole thing did not.

00:31:08.291 --> 00:31:10.931
Like I remember when I first heard
about the Statement from the Heart and

00:31:10.931 --> 00:31:13.281
the Uluru thing, and I'm like, yeah,
they're gearing up for a thing here.

00:31:13.301 --> 00:31:15.911
And I just saw this three years
ahead of time and going, this

00:31:15.921 --> 00:31:17.301
is not where to put the energy.

00:31:17.701 --> 00:31:19.461
This has, this has a real...

00:31:19.631 --> 00:31:22.021
Joe: Coming back to the topic, all of
us, and I think we need to hear from Ali.

00:31:22.021 --> 00:31:22.301
Yeah.

00:31:22.501 --> 00:31:24.041
God knows our listeners
want to hear more from Ali.

00:31:24.061 --> 00:31:24.291
Yeah.

00:31:26.581 --> 00:31:30.201
Coming back to the topic, all
of us basically played dead

00:31:30.221 --> 00:31:31.161
on the referendum, right?

00:31:31.161 --> 00:31:31.771
100%.

00:31:31.771 --> 00:31:35.181
We certainly didn't do a show
about it, uh, we didn't post about

00:31:35.181 --> 00:31:36.231
it, I've posted one photo of it.

00:31:36.231 --> 00:31:37.261
No, no, no, we endorsed

00:31:37.261 --> 00:31:38.891
Sam: it quietly.

00:31:38.931 --> 00:31:39.381
Quietly.

00:31:39.641 --> 00:31:40.651
Joe: Four or five weeks ahead.

00:31:40.651 --> 00:31:42.061
yeah, of course, we should do something.

00:31:42.101 --> 00:31:44.586
Sam: Yeah, we're all voting, we
just confirmed we're all voting yes.

00:31:45.076 --> 00:31:45.496
That's it.

00:31:45.886 --> 00:31:46.386
That's it.

00:31:46.396 --> 00:31:46.766
But

00:31:47.276 --> 00:31:49.906
Joe: we didn't get excited about
it, we weren't posting about it.

00:31:49.926 --> 00:31:51.436
Did you see?

00:31:51.656 --> 00:31:51.946
I saw

00:31:52.786 --> 00:31:52.956
Ali: a lot

00:31:52.956 --> 00:31:53.686
Joe: of people posting about it.

00:31:53.866 --> 00:31:56.006
I saw a lot of people online
getting very excited about it.

00:31:56.146 --> 00:31:56.866
Yeah, for sure.

00:31:56.946 --> 00:31:57.056
Sam: I

00:31:57.056 --> 00:31:58.246
Joe: was actually surprised.

00:31:58.276 --> 00:32:02.116
All those same people now want me to
sign a petition to somehow stop a war

00:32:02.116 --> 00:32:03.426
in the Middle East from Melbourne.

00:32:03.426 --> 00:32:04.666
And I'm like, what the fuck?

00:32:05.446 --> 00:32:07.786
I thought you were in mourning
from the fucking referendum.

00:32:07.846 --> 00:32:07.906
No.

00:32:08.206 --> 00:32:08.956
When do you get to this?

00:32:08.956 --> 00:32:09.586
Come on, we can.

00:32:09.586 --> 00:32:09.646
Do

00:32:09.646 --> 00:32:10.366
Sam: you ever get a day off?

00:32:10.366 --> 00:32:10.786
No, you can't.

00:32:10.906 --> 00:32:12.976
. We can chew gum and walk at the same time.

00:32:12.981 --> 00:32:13.131
No,

00:32:13.191 --> 00:32:17.896
Joe: but just can't you work out that
you're completely fucking like impotent?

00:32:18.046 --> 00:32:20.476
Sam: Well, no, that's
where we don't agree, Joe.

00:32:21.436 --> 00:32:21.886
See,

00:32:21.886 --> 00:32:23.891
Joe: you think just, you know.

00:32:24.766 --> 00:32:26.611
Sam: So you think people
power is non-existent.

00:32:26.916 --> 00:32:29.946
You're basically, you're not
persuaded that there's any such

00:32:29.946 --> 00:32:32.916
thing as social movements because
you haven't seen one for a while.

00:32:33.326 --> 00:32:36.156
But you've forgotten what you
and your kind did at Jabba Luka.

00:32:36.216 --> 00:32:36.876
You've forgotten.

00:32:37.196 --> 00:32:37.576
Yeah.

00:32:37.576 --> 00:32:39.386
Joe: Or on the docks with the MUA.

00:32:40.266 --> 00:32:43.966
I was at, I've been at a
lot of frontline protests.

00:32:44.801 --> 00:32:46.081
That, that was before

00:32:46.081 --> 00:32:46.831
Sam: social media.

00:32:46.871 --> 00:32:50.451
Now stopping, yeah, stopping a war, that's
a whole nother story, but nonetheless.

00:32:50.481 --> 00:32:50.671
Well,

00:32:50.911 --> 00:32:53.071
Ali: I was going to say like an
interesting one that happened, I

00:32:53.071 --> 00:32:56.291
suppose, in the time of social media
that was a social change was like

00:32:56.291 --> 00:32:58.411
marriage equality that we did see.

00:32:58.581 --> 00:32:58.701
Yeah.

00:32:58.701 --> 00:32:59.521
That was just a home

00:32:59.521 --> 00:32:59.861
Joe: run.

00:33:00.131 --> 00:33:00.541
Ali: Yeah.

00:33:00.571 --> 00:33:00.781
Yeah.

00:33:00.781 --> 00:33:02.576
But, but like, I think that.

00:33:03.156 --> 00:33:07.396
As far as seeing like a social
movement on social media in a positive

00:33:07.396 --> 00:33:07.776
Sam: way.

00:33:07.836 --> 00:33:10.506
Yeah, the groundwork was laid
for that 15 years earlier.

00:33:10.676 --> 00:33:12.896
A lot of careful work
was done over a very long

00:33:12.896 --> 00:33:13.226
Ali: period.

00:33:13.236 --> 00:33:13.496
Yeah.

00:33:14.106 --> 00:33:18.426
So I think like, it's one thing,
yeah, to be like just sharing things.

00:33:19.096 --> 00:33:20.496
Yeah, that you've seen.

00:33:20.496 --> 00:33:23.566
Versus like, like the actual groundwork
or like, as you would say, quiet

00:33:24.046 --> 00:33:26.866
supporting, which is like stuff you
do behind the scenes or stuff you do,

00:33:26.876 --> 00:33:30.976
discussions you're having with people
directly or organisations you choose to

00:33:30.976 --> 00:33:32.036
support, you know, that sort of thing.

00:33:32.416 --> 00:33:36.106
Joe: So, I mean, but what I'm saying is
it's the same people that, you know, the

00:33:36.106 --> 00:33:39.296
people who are going to post about the
latest issue and you roll your fucking

00:33:39.296 --> 00:33:39.706
Sam: eyes.

00:33:39.726 --> 00:33:43.786
Well, yeah, I mean, I do too
sometimes, but then I'm like, look,

00:33:43.936 --> 00:33:45.516
man, I'm glad someone is out there.

00:33:46.681 --> 00:33:50.951
Doing something like on this, at least,
even if it's just to like, cause look,

00:33:50.951 --> 00:33:56.781
don't forget the consensus on not talking
about the actual politics on the ground,

00:33:56.781 --> 00:33:58.721
the facts on the ground over there.

00:33:58.721 --> 00:34:03.248
But I will say this, we need to keep
in mind how much the consensus has

00:34:03.248 --> 00:34:08.448
shifted and like people, this is
what I'm saying, about talking about.

00:34:11.773 --> 00:34:16.013
Invading Gaza and things like that,
because even just talking about this,

00:34:16.023 --> 00:34:21.973
a lot of people were very nervous about
criticizing Israeli domestic or foreign

00:34:21.973 --> 00:34:24.443
policy for a very, very, very long time.

00:34:24.973 --> 00:34:29.433
And basically there's a whole bunch
of people who just kept shtum for

00:34:29.433 --> 00:34:33.203
a very, very, very long time about
things that they felt were not right,

00:34:34.123 --> 00:34:37.513
but they were worried that they would
cause a greater harm by speaking up.

00:34:37.883 --> 00:34:40.023
So all of that seems to have shifted.

00:34:40.598 --> 00:34:41.648
And I'm

00:34:42.078 --> 00:34:44.883
Ali: very quickly I
might add, it's very like

00:34:45.863 --> 00:34:48.563
Joe: I want this to be a show that
people can listen to in a year's time.

00:34:48.563 --> 00:34:53.313
So I'm wary of talking about things
that It bears on the matter at hand.

00:34:53.903 --> 00:34:55.003
I'm about it was decided.

00:34:55.033 --> 00:34:58.473
I didn't want to talk about it before
it was decided because it won't

00:34:58.523 --> 00:34:59.393
Sam: age very well.

00:34:59.433 --> 00:35:00.533
None of us had to discuss that.

00:35:00.533 --> 00:35:01.153
Joe: We all knew.

00:35:01.163 --> 00:35:01.203
And

00:35:05.783 --> 00:35:07.033
Sam: I about the discourse.

00:35:07.443 --> 00:35:10.133
I'm talking about how people
feel they need to say something.

00:35:10.373 --> 00:35:11.743
And I'm not going to shit on that.

00:35:12.013 --> 00:35:17.008
Because I've seen plenty of evidence
of bad things go down in that part of

00:35:17.008 --> 00:35:18.918
the world, and no one really say much.

00:35:19.738 --> 00:35:22.728
So, to see someone saying, look, mind
you though, that's not quite right,

00:35:22.928 --> 00:35:27.068
because I had friends running the, or
acquaintances running the blockade.

00:35:27.373 --> 00:35:32.833
Way back when, like, in the Mediterranean,
so, like, I've actually kind of been

00:35:32.993 --> 00:35:35.813
in and around this issue for a really,
really, really long time, including

00:35:35.823 --> 00:35:37.723
around people that really know

00:35:37.733 --> 00:35:38.143
Joe: their stuff.

00:35:38.153 --> 00:35:42.263
Oh yeah, and it's the, it's the pet
issue, Palestinian causes, the pet

00:35:42.263 --> 00:35:44.243
issue of leftists of the last 20 years.

00:35:44.293 --> 00:35:46.213
Well, it has been since
the second intifada, yes.

00:35:46.213 --> 00:35:48.723
So I know who the ones who
are going to pipe up on it.

00:35:48.753 --> 00:35:52.103
And to, to, to be fair, if they're
there at the rally on Sunday

00:35:52.103 --> 00:35:53.393
in Melbourne, full respect.

00:35:53.443 --> 00:35:56.773
And if you're posting yourself
a photo of yourself at a fucking

00:35:56.773 --> 00:35:57.813
rally, I actually respect that.

00:35:57.823 --> 00:35:58.093
No, I

00:35:59.463 --> 00:35:59.946
Sam: was going to say that's fine.

00:35:59.946 --> 00:36:00.963
It's not that it takes

00:36:00.963 --> 00:36:01.203
Joe: guts.

00:36:01.203 --> 00:36:01.343
I don't know.

00:36:01.373 --> 00:36:02.173
No, I think it does.

00:36:02.333 --> 00:36:05.503
But I think that it shows that
you've, you're willing to get

00:36:05.503 --> 00:36:09.483
off your ass and off your phone
and actually go and be somewhere.

00:36:09.483 --> 00:36:12.453
And I've been to climate rallies
and I'll go to more climate rallies.

00:36:12.483 --> 00:36:12.863
Yeah.

00:36:12.972 --> 00:36:14.912
so I kind of respect that more.

00:36:15.437 --> 00:36:20.407
Look, I do find it interesting who pops
up and he, oh, someone who's 10, 20

00:36:20.417 --> 00:36:23.967
years younger than me popping up with
a Palestinian flag and I, I just note

00:36:23.977 --> 00:36:25.547
that and think, oh, that's interesting.

00:36:25.666 --> 00:36:27.586
Sam: there's been a, yeah,
a grounds, a ground shift.

00:36:27.976 --> 00:36:29.166
Ali: Within like a matter of

00:36:29.306 --> 00:36:29.816
Joe: a week.

00:36:29.956 --> 00:36:30.426
Yeah.

00:36:30.426 --> 00:36:30.806
It's been huge.

00:36:30.856 --> 00:36:33.746
But, but I strongly, strongly feel.

00:36:34.176 --> 00:36:37.396
That no one needs my fucking opinion.

00:36:37.406 --> 00:36:37.656
No,

00:36:38.826 --> 00:36:38.856
Sam: but

00:36:38.896 --> 00:36:39.696
Joe: that's where you're wrong.

00:36:39.716 --> 00:36:41.586
I don't know how much
further from my lived

00:36:41.586 --> 00:36:42.196
Sam: experience.

00:36:42.386 --> 00:36:44.896
They don't need a detailed, they
don't need, they I don't think they

00:36:44.896 --> 00:36:45.716
need, I don't think they need...

00:36:46.546 --> 00:36:47.856
Joe: No one's asking us to vote on this.

00:36:47.866 --> 00:36:49.446
Sam: They don't need you
sounding like an expert.

00:36:49.526 --> 00:36:51.996
Ali: Yeah, no, they don't need
your opinion, but they, but I

00:36:52.076 --> 00:36:55.476
don't think there's any harm in
sharing other people's stories.

00:36:55.696 --> 00:36:56.116
I wrote to Ali.

00:36:57.516 --> 00:36:58.041
Sam: That's right.

00:36:58.101 --> 00:37:00.411
Joe: Ali started posting
about Gaza and I wrote...

00:37:00.411 --> 00:37:01.201
Centering voices.

00:37:01.211 --> 00:37:01.341
Yes.

00:37:02.311 --> 00:37:02.491
Yeah.

00:37:02.541 --> 00:37:04.721
Ali started posting
about Gaza on Instagram.

00:37:04.791 --> 00:37:05.911
Oh, interesting.

00:37:05.991 --> 00:37:08.941
And I wrote to her and I said,
really, Ali, you're really

00:37:08.941 --> 00:37:10.121
going to be posting about this?

00:37:10.121 --> 00:37:11.111
Silencing.

00:37:11.211 --> 00:37:11.611
Ali.

00:37:11.661 --> 00:37:11.991
Sam: Joe.

00:37:12.361 --> 00:37:12.831
And...

00:37:12.891 --> 00:37:13.581
Joe: I'm disappointed.

00:37:14.431 --> 00:37:17.291
Well, she's a middle class, she's
actually working class, she just thinks

00:37:17.301 --> 00:37:17.851
Sam: she's middle Okay, Joe.

00:37:17.981 --> 00:37:21.591
Guess, guess who, guess who
spoke up against horrors all

00:37:21.591 --> 00:37:22.771
through the 20th century?

00:37:23.136 --> 00:37:25.406
Often, it was white middle class people.

00:37:25.806 --> 00:37:28.396
And guess who marched
besides the people at Selma?

00:37:28.396 --> 00:37:29.326
The Jewish

00:37:29.556 --> 00:37:32.666
Joe: Antith So Ali, was it really
you want to get embroiled in this

00:37:32.706 --> 00:37:34.356
particular ancient fucking word?

00:37:34.366 --> 00:37:35.146
No, it's not,

00:37:35.186 --> 00:37:35.796
Sam: not an ancient

00:37:35.796 --> 00:37:35.916
Joe: converse.

00:37:35.996 --> 00:37:37.386
No, no, no, let's not get sidetracked.

00:37:37.436 --> 00:37:37.816
Okay.

00:37:38.046 --> 00:37:38.536
But Ali?

00:37:38.806 --> 00:37:45.266
Ali: I, what it was is seeing, and
I, and I, again, being really careful

00:37:45.266 --> 00:37:50.631
not to share any of My, cause I
have no, absolutely no personal,

00:37:50.941 --> 00:37:52.101
you know, experience of that.

00:37:52.151 --> 00:37:52.391
Yeah.

00:37:52.694 --> 00:37:59.384
but sharing things that I felt really
just questioned my sense of humanity,

00:37:59.494 --> 00:38:04.774
really horrific things that I feel
like we need to all be aware of this.

00:38:05.479 --> 00:38:09.909
And whether it, I am posting it into the
void, which I don't think I am, because

00:38:09.989 --> 00:38:15.009
quite a few people actually responded
to it, responding to it, on both, you

00:38:15.009 --> 00:38:19.849
know, with very different takes, but
um, but I think, I think the more people

00:38:19.849 --> 00:38:23.949
that can, we need to be, I think What's
going on now, people need to be aware

00:38:23.999 --> 00:38:25.279
and I felt that that was important.

00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:25.759
So you're

00:38:25.899 --> 00:38:28.459
Joe: doing the exact thing that
this topic of this show came from

00:38:28.459 --> 00:38:29.569
you telling people not to do.

00:38:29.569 --> 00:38:30.249
I'm a hypocrite.

00:38:30.339 --> 00:38:32.789
Sam: no, okay, but let's do the checklist.

00:38:32.909 --> 00:38:34.359
Were you centering yourself?

00:38:34.769 --> 00:38:37.189
Ali: No, I was absolutely,
yeah, no, it was absolutely not.

00:38:37.189 --> 00:38:39.449
I shared our Jazira footage.

00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:40.719
Yeah, that's it.

00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:42.569
That was it, like I felt, you know, that

00:38:42.659 --> 00:38:42.959
Sam: it's...

00:38:43.484 --> 00:38:43.754
Yeah.

00:38:44.464 --> 00:38:48.194
At some point, because it's not just the
information itself, or, you know, the

00:38:48.194 --> 00:38:54.044
images itself or whatever that you're
resharing, what you're, the metadata.

00:38:54.574 --> 00:38:59.444
is important and the metadata is, I
find this to be of significance and I'm,

00:38:59.554 --> 00:39:03.124
I think this is, I'm going to turn my
head towards this and you're inviting

00:39:03.154 --> 00:39:04.754
others to turn their heads towards it.

00:39:04.844 --> 00:39:08.334
Don't underestimate the power of that and
yes, white middle class women actually

00:39:08.334 --> 00:39:09.704
have done a hell of a lot of good.

00:39:09.714 --> 00:39:11.274
I'll, I'll, there, I'll say it.

00:39:11.354 --> 00:39:11.794
Yeah, no,

00:39:11.884 --> 00:39:13.984
Ali: I'm, I'm, I'm, like I feel like.

00:39:14.544 --> 00:39:18.454
Like the overall, who knows, but
the topic came across as like very

00:39:18.454 --> 00:39:20.974
judgy and bitchy, which I really,
I'm a hundred percent there for it.

00:39:22.614 --> 00:39:27.264
I want to have it both ways, but I
feel like, yeah, there is nuance in it.

00:39:27.264 --> 00:39:31.554
And I feel that, yeah, we need to,
yeah, each, like you said, it's

00:39:31.554 --> 00:39:35.674
a case by case, discussion rather
than just, you know, a blanket rule.

00:39:35.674 --> 00:39:39.124
But I do think, you know, it is okay
to like hang shit on middle class

00:39:39.124 --> 00:39:40.254
white people because, you know.

00:39:41.534 --> 00:39:44.074
Joe: I mean, this is a case where
I think you should practice what

00:39:44.074 --> 00:39:45.554
you preach and shut the fuck up.

00:39:45.554 --> 00:39:51.644
Sam: You might, look, you might tempt
me, you might tempt me to like, raise

00:39:51.644 --> 00:39:56.134
an eyebrow if you went, uh, uh, I don't
know, Hey everyone, do you like my, uh,

00:39:56.744 --> 00:39:59.664
Palestine flag cupcakes or something?

00:39:59.694 --> 00:40:00.044
I don't know.

00:40:00.164 --> 00:40:01.434
I'd be like, I'd be tempted.

00:40:01.464 --> 00:40:04.454
No, I'd be like, nah, you know
what, it's, it's something.

00:40:04.784 --> 00:40:05.444
That's what I'd say.

00:40:05.544 --> 00:40:06.694
Look, I just got an email today.

00:40:07.344 --> 00:40:11.774
From a member of my, you know, my
sub branch of the union, asking us if

00:40:11.774 --> 00:40:13.554
we're going to pass a motion or not.

00:40:13.664 --> 00:40:16.524
And, you know, not just a
question for me to consider, but a

00:40:16.524 --> 00:40:17.734
question for everyone to consider.

00:40:18.014 --> 00:40:21.974
And it's like, oh, well, it
might seem silly, but like...

00:40:22.034 --> 00:40:23.064
Joe: A motion on what?

00:40:25.754 --> 00:40:26.954
Sam: Basically taking a position.

00:40:27.144 --> 00:40:28.814
They're asking to take a formal

00:40:28.964 --> 00:40:29.214
Joe: position.

00:40:29.214 --> 00:40:30.804
Does anyone realise where we live?

00:40:30.974 --> 00:40:33.199
Do you realise how irrelevant we are?

00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:35.634
Ali: We have family
and friends over there.

00:40:36.554 --> 00:40:37.154
Sam: It matters.

00:40:37.574 --> 00:40:38.194
It does matter.

00:40:38.194 --> 00:40:39.374
Anywhere less relevant than

00:40:39.864 --> 00:40:40.404
Joe: where we live.

00:40:40.734 --> 00:40:40.964
No,

00:40:40.964 --> 00:40:45.304
Ali: but like, like, I'm talking to
my friend in Lebanon, like every other

00:40:45.304 --> 00:40:51.154
day, checking in on him and that's
how I, I mean, and I'm asking him and

00:40:51.154 --> 00:40:52.584
he should be posting and that's fine.

00:40:52.594 --> 00:40:52.934
And he is.

00:40:52.944 --> 00:40:53.374
Joe: Yeah.

00:40:53.424 --> 00:40:55.674
Like, and you could post
about your friend in Lebanon.

00:40:55.674 --> 00:40:56.484
I think that's fine.

00:40:56.484 --> 00:40:57.244
But I just think.

00:40:57.749 --> 00:41:02.439
Generally posting about the Middle
East, it's just like, fuck, it's

00:41:02.439 --> 00:41:05.429
exactly what you're talking about and
I agree with you and now we've turned

00:41:05.429 --> 00:41:08.789
it complete 180 and it's like oh well
no, actually I definitely should be

00:41:08.789 --> 00:41:10.569
posting about Gaza and it's like,

00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:11.689
Sam: no.

00:41:12.099 --> 00:41:15.789
I don't think, look, it's not like But
it's not like you went out and staked

00:41:15.819 --> 00:41:18.549
out like a particularly hot territory.

00:41:18.579 --> 00:41:20.009
You just kind of like go here.

00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:20.479
But yeah, it

00:41:20.479 --> 00:41:22.629
Ali: wasn't, it wasn't,
it wasn't a position.

00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:23.739
It wasn't a side.

00:41:23.739 --> 00:41:24.159
It wasn't, it wasn't.

00:41:24.449 --> 00:41:28.679
Joe: You said, we, we can't take,
we can't feel bad about what one

00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:31.099
group of children dying and not
feel bad about the other group.

00:41:31.099 --> 00:41:32.559
Sam: I think that's a
pretty good statement.

00:41:32.649 --> 00:41:33.479
I'm fine with that.

00:41:34.339 --> 00:41:34.709
Joe: But it's taking a

00:41:34.709 --> 00:41:35.389
Ali: position.

00:41:35.469 --> 00:41:37.199
No, but like, no, it really wasn't.

00:41:37.569 --> 00:41:37.889
Sam: No, it's

00:41:38.029 --> 00:41:39.139
Ali: taking humanity's position.

00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:42.479
Yeah, the footage I shared was just
simply sharing something that is

00:41:42.489 --> 00:41:43.979
going on over there at the moment.

00:41:43.989 --> 00:41:48.289
And I felt that that was
worthy of, of people seeing.

00:41:48.769 --> 00:41:48.879
Sam: Yeah.

00:41:48.879 --> 00:41:51.529
But I, I go, you're not imagining
it, Ali, that you feel this

00:41:51.529 --> 00:41:52.459
way, but we're not imagining

00:41:52.609 --> 00:41:53.969
Joe: your Insta stories.

00:41:53.999 --> 00:41:55.139
I expect to see.

00:41:55.509 --> 00:42:00.559
Some stupid meme about being a
Sagittarius, and instead I'm creating

00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:04.669
some gruesome image of a hospital, and
it's like, whoa, it's just like, I just

00:42:04.669 --> 00:42:09.409
don't think Instagram is that place,
like, it's either one or the other, it's a

00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:12.719
Sam: category error.

00:42:14.219 --> 00:42:15.109
Joe: Nah, man.

00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:19.199
It's just like, it's either
trash or it's not trash.

00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:20.629
And Instagram is pure trash.

00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:21.119
Nah, I see.

00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:21.699
I disagree.

00:42:21.699 --> 00:42:23.129
And you can't then put
serious heavy duty shit.

00:42:23.359 --> 00:42:23.639
Man,

00:42:23.659 --> 00:42:27.999
Sam: everyone said Twitter was just for,
like, for irrelevancies and like, uh...

00:42:27.999 --> 00:42:29.029
And look how bad that's ended up.

00:42:29.219 --> 00:42:30.059
No, no, Hold on.

00:42:30.299 --> 00:42:30.779
Hold on.

00:42:31.589 --> 00:42:34.459
Everyone's forgetting how crucial
that was in a number of...

00:42:34.489 --> 00:42:35.059
Well, like the Arab

00:42:35.059 --> 00:42:35.234
Joe: Spring.

00:42:35.234 --> 00:42:37.459
Yeah, the Arab Spring didn't
fucking work out anyway.

00:42:37.499 --> 00:42:39.239
No, agreed, but...

00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:39.919
It was exciting at the time.

00:42:39.939 --> 00:42:40.169
But

00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:42.369
Sam: the platform had an impact on events.

00:42:42.389 --> 00:42:42.619
Yeah.

00:42:43.069 --> 00:42:43.759
That's all I'm saying.

00:42:43.764 --> 00:42:44.389
But there, but, but,

00:42:44.389 --> 00:42:46.819
Joe: but what I'm saying is I don't
think there is a platform at the moment.

00:42:47.784 --> 00:42:48.154
Good one.

00:42:48.154 --> 00:42:48.234
No,

00:42:48.234 --> 00:42:48.474
Sam: I disagree.

00:42:48.474 --> 00:42:49.059
Meta good one.

00:42:49.059 --> 00:42:51.819
I hate, I hate to give everyone
the bad news, but meta is kind

00:42:51.819 --> 00:42:52.899
of kicking ass at the moment.

00:42:52.899 --> 00:42:53.679
Unfortunately.

00:42:54.274 --> 00:42:54.514
I, I,

00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:55.229
Joe: I don't see it.

00:42:55.229 --> 00:42:58.199
I don't, I don't see anywhere
where I would go to see my,

00:42:58.489 --> 00:43:00.799
Sam: I'm not saying they're do, I'm
not saying they're doing good work,

00:43:00.799 --> 00:43:02.359
but they're winning the information

00:43:02.359 --> 00:43:02.809
Joe: space.

00:43:02.809 --> 00:43:04.559
I don't, yeah.

00:43:04.649 --> 00:43:07.489
See I, 'cause I don't wanna be on Twitter.

00:43:07.489 --> 00:43:08.599
It's horrible.

00:43:08.599 --> 00:43:10.279
I want trash on Instagram.

00:43:10.414 --> 00:43:12.994
Yeah, Facebook is a fucking dumpster fire.

00:43:12.994 --> 00:43:15.484
Of course, at best that's
when something's happening.

00:43:15.484 --> 00:43:16.024
But nine, nine time

00:43:16.114 --> 00:43:16.774
Sam: dad's sunset

00:43:16.774 --> 00:43:17.614
Joe: photos are on there.

00:43:17.974 --> 00:43:20.494
Well, 99% of the time nothing's
happening on Facebook.

00:43:20.494 --> 00:43:21.154
That's what I see.

00:43:21.154 --> 00:43:21.244
Sure.

00:43:21.244 --> 00:43:23.044
I get my Cricket Club
updates and that's it.

00:43:23.104 --> 00:43:26.014
No, I was hearing from Nazis in
New, I tried to be on Threads.

00:43:26.524 --> 00:43:29.164
I tried, I thought, I thought
I'll try threads 'cause it's

00:43:29.164 --> 00:43:30.484
a new platform and whatever.

00:43:30.484 --> 00:43:30.574
Sure.

00:43:30.604 --> 00:43:31.894
And I've already got an Instagram account.

00:43:31.894 --> 00:43:31.954
Yeah.

00:43:31.954 --> 00:43:33.964
Within two weeks I was
somehow getting, oh no.

00:43:34.759 --> 00:43:38.399
X like non stop posts about Donald
Trump, who is someone I do not want to

00:43:38.399 --> 00:43:39.989
think about until next November, man.

00:43:39.989 --> 00:43:40.999
You followed the wrong accounts.

00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:41.329
I did.

00:43:41.329 --> 00:43:42.929
I tried not to though, Sam.

00:43:42.979 --> 00:43:45.769
I don't have a particular interest
in American politics at the moment.

00:43:45.769 --> 00:43:46.329
I get nice

00:43:46.329 --> 00:43:50.109
Sam: ladies telling me about books
and like, Oh, I wrote this poem.

00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:50.789
Anyway, my

00:43:50.789 --> 00:43:51.289
Ali: experience is.

00:43:51.389 --> 00:43:53.739
Mine's all just like people with
poor mental health sharing their

00:43:53.749 --> 00:43:55.699
poor Oh, I get a lot of that.

00:43:55.749 --> 00:43:57.649
That's all my social media.

00:43:57.649 --> 00:43:58.109
Can you not

00:43:58.109 --> 00:43:58.722
Joe: see what I'm saying?

00:43:58.722 --> 00:44:00.579
That Ali's like consistently...

00:44:00.944 --> 00:44:02.044
Light hearted.

00:44:02.194 --> 00:44:03.704
This is what music I'm listening to.

00:44:03.714 --> 00:44:05.224
Here's a meme about being bipolar.

00:44:05.224 --> 00:44:06.674
You're telling it to go back to cats.

00:44:07.154 --> 00:44:07.764
Ali: Just stay

00:44:08.954 --> 00:44:09.364
Joe: on brand.

00:44:09.404 --> 00:44:12.934
Well, get on threads and share your
fucking Gaza stuff or get a Twitter

00:44:12.934 --> 00:44:16.004
account or go somewhere else where
people want news at that moment.

00:44:18.154 --> 00:44:20.134
Maybe I've just been reading
the news for four hours.

00:44:20.434 --> 00:44:21.434
Instagram is the white middle

00:44:21.444 --> 00:44:22.834
Sam: class woman's domain.

00:44:23.124 --> 00:44:24.114
That's where she speaks.

00:44:24.424 --> 00:44:24.964
Alright, let's

00:44:24.964 --> 00:44:25.124
Joe: finish up.

00:44:25.804 --> 00:44:29.644
But in the end, the conclusion of people
should only post shit they have heard.

00:44:30.154 --> 00:44:32.764
The conclusion of the people
should only post shit they have

00:44:32.764 --> 00:44:34.234
personal experience of topic is that

00:44:34.314 --> 00:44:34.924
Sam: Ali doesn't do it.

00:44:34.924 --> 00:44:37.844
She has personal experience of
being horrified by images she saw.

00:44:38.264 --> 00:44:38.594
Right,

00:44:38.614 --> 00:44:41.224
Joe: so suddenly we've broadened
it out to just post whatever

00:44:41.224 --> 00:44:42.534
you want on any platform.

00:44:42.594 --> 00:44:43.704
No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:44:43.704 --> 00:44:46.384
One minute it's a Sagittarius
joke, one minute it's a cat photo.

00:44:46.384 --> 00:44:48.194
Oh look, there's
someone's guts ripped out.

00:44:48.254 --> 00:44:50.404
Sam: Welcome to post
modern, post modernity.

00:44:50.414 --> 00:44:53.424
All of this was described in
1985 by Frederick Jamison.

00:44:53.644 --> 00:44:53.824
It's

00:44:53.834 --> 00:44:54.774
Joe: all flattened.

00:44:54.834 --> 00:44:55.584
Welcome to the present.

00:44:55.584 --> 00:44:56.414
It all has a similar

00:44:56.454 --> 00:44:56.994
Sam: impact.

00:44:56.994 --> 00:45:00.054
Oh my God, you read these
essays in like 1995.

00:45:00.054 --> 00:45:02.234
All of this has been
described and said and done.

00:45:02.254 --> 00:45:03.124
It's just reality.

00:45:03.134 --> 00:45:03.764
It's what we live in.

00:45:03.914 --> 00:45:04.134
You don't

00:45:04.294 --> 00:45:05.074
Joe: really do it.

00:45:05.464 --> 00:45:06.394
Ali's out there doing it.

00:45:06.794 --> 00:45:07.744
She's, she's the problem.

00:45:07.874 --> 00:45:08.664
I am the problem.

00:45:10.724 --> 00:45:11.874
Sam: Have you seen my reshares?

00:45:11.994 --> 00:45:13.564
It's all kinds of, it's
all over the shelf.

00:45:13.934 --> 00:45:15.714
Ali: Sam likes a political reshare.

00:45:15.714 --> 00:45:17.024
I've seen you share some.

00:45:17.534 --> 00:45:20.874
Sam: But I'll also reshare
like, he's a funny guy and

00:45:21.614 --> 00:45:23.974
Ali: I'll share anything
that takes your interest.

00:45:23.974 --> 00:45:27.174
And I think that's the thing,
like our social media is a

00:45:27.174 --> 00:45:29.274
reflection of us as complex.

00:45:29.784 --> 00:45:33.874
People who are, and unless you're
trying to curate a certain experience

00:45:33.904 --> 00:45:37.344
of like very certain, like it's always
going to be a bit of everything.

00:45:37.374 --> 00:45:41.974
Joe: I'm always touched by Sam's
post because I know that someone

00:45:41.974 --> 00:45:45.384
is watching Greens speeches in
parliament and posting them.

00:45:45.704 --> 00:45:48.694
Oh, there's a Greens Senator
making a speech and Sam's

00:45:48.694 --> 00:45:50.424
posted that up and good for Sam.

00:45:51.014 --> 00:45:54.034
I'm sure him and that guy with the
hyphen in his name will get together

00:45:54.034 --> 00:45:55.524
one day and have a chamomile tea.

00:45:55.644 --> 00:45:55.854
Oh,

00:45:55.854 --> 00:45:56.304
Sam: I love it.

00:45:56.324 --> 00:45:56.724
I love it.

00:45:57.014 --> 00:45:57.514
Do you know what?

00:45:57.969 --> 00:46:00.829
I love how much hate Max Chandler
Mather attracts, because it

00:46:00.899 --> 00:46:01.919
tells me I'm onto something.

00:46:03.149 --> 00:46:04.829
This guy's a star, I'm telling you.

00:46:06.499 --> 00:46:07.639
Anyway, I think we should wrap it up.

00:46:07.669 --> 00:46:08.439
He upsets you.

00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:09.629
I don't know where that went.

00:46:09.669 --> 00:46:10.849
No, no, I think it was fun.

00:46:10.999 --> 00:46:13.149
And it went serious for a bit there too.

00:46:13.179 --> 00:46:13.769
Sorry everyone.

00:46:13.769 --> 00:46:14.069
Well, we

00:46:14.069 --> 00:46:15.629
Joe: pretty much stayed out of Gaza.

00:46:15.809 --> 00:46:16.399
Yeah, we did.

00:46:16.709 --> 00:46:17.729
We certainly didn't invade.

00:46:17.739 --> 00:46:20.089
God knows we don't want to do a three hour

00:46:20.109 --> 00:46:20.289
Sam: episode on that.

00:46:20.289 --> 00:46:21.479
No, no, no, no, no.

00:46:21.529 --> 00:46:22.819
It's beyond our expertise.

00:46:23.049 --> 00:46:23.889
I'll agree with that.

00:46:24.679 --> 00:46:27.519
I don't think it's beyond anyone's
expertise, though, to say...

00:46:27.839 --> 00:46:32.459
Gee guys, I'm a bit upset by what I'm
seeing, I'm, you know, I'm worried that

00:46:32.759 --> 00:46:37.269
there's an awful lot of human suffering
taking place, um, on all sides, I'm

00:46:37.269 --> 00:46:40.569
very concerned that it might become a
larger problem, I'm very concerned that

00:46:40.569 --> 00:46:45.449
there might be some cynical people that
are to some degree behind this or...

00:46:45.799 --> 00:46:49.349
Yes, but also just a whole lot of
stuff, momentum and things happening.

00:46:49.349 --> 00:46:51.039
It's not just being orchestrated.

00:46:51.619 --> 00:46:54.229
Geez, I'm worried, you know,
I think it's okay to say that.

00:46:54.269 --> 00:46:58.869
And I think it's okay to say, geez, is
there a way for karma heads to prevail?

00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:04.299
Like, is every person in that country hell
bent on the destruction of the supposed?

00:47:04.724 --> 00:47:07.814
Other, or are there a whole bunch
of people that have just been

00:47:07.814 --> 00:47:11.244
ignored and sidelined and completely
left out of the political protest,

00:47:11.374 --> 00:47:12.784
uh, process this whole time?

00:47:12.794 --> 00:47:15.134
Much like a lot of us in
Australia just, we don't really

00:47:15.134 --> 00:47:16.774
get heard from at elections.

00:47:17.004 --> 00:47:18.404
We just get averagified.

00:47:18.764 --> 00:47:21.054
And then we get a narrative
saying, this is how everyone

00:47:21.054 --> 00:47:22.764
feels, that's how that lot feels.

00:47:23.024 --> 00:47:24.534
That's not how the world is.

00:47:25.284 --> 00:47:26.364
That's kind of my point.

00:47:26.374 --> 00:47:29.589
That's why people have to like,
yeah, I agree with you that just

00:47:29.589 --> 00:47:32.639
kind of hitting a headline and going,
here's my take on the headlines.

00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:33.289
Yeah, that's shit.

00:47:33.619 --> 00:47:38.559
But here's how I'm feeling owing to
things that are coming on my radar.

00:47:38.809 --> 00:47:39.659
I think that's it.

00:47:40.059 --> 00:47:41.789
Like, here's my state of, I think

00:47:41.799 --> 00:47:45.409
Joe: that's kind of, yeah, that's not
what Ali's like, see this, feel horrible.

00:47:45.849 --> 00:47:47.959
Well, like you watch
this, you feel horrible.

00:47:47.959 --> 00:47:50.879
It's not like, Oh, I'm watching this
and I'm worried about the world.

00:47:50.879 --> 00:47:52.649
It's like, here's something horrific.

00:47:53.149 --> 00:47:53.989
I'm just going to shove this in your face.

00:47:54.249 --> 00:47:56.649
Even though you were looking
for a cat video, ah, sucked in.

00:47:56.659 --> 00:47:59.839
That's my experience of
interacting with her on Instagram.

00:47:59.849 --> 00:47:59.989
Okay.

00:48:00.069 --> 00:48:00.259
I

00:48:00.529 --> 00:48:00.659
Sam: love that.

00:48:01.169 --> 00:48:01.909
Ali: Like, no, I

00:48:01.909 --> 00:48:02.209
Sam: just,

00:48:02.229 --> 00:48:02.609
Ali: I don't know.

00:48:02.609 --> 00:48:03.419
It's a marvelous narrative.

00:48:03.469 --> 00:48:06.049
I just felt like it was,
yeah, it was horrific.

00:48:06.059 --> 00:48:07.819
It really genuinely was horrific.

00:48:07.859 --> 00:48:09.149
And I felt like.

00:48:09.524 --> 00:48:14.504
Yeah, we need to be talking about
this, or we need to be aware of

00:48:14.504 --> 00:48:14.744
Joe: it.

00:48:15.074 --> 00:48:18.454
While you're raising awareness,
you need a hashtag for that, Ali.

00:48:18.454 --> 00:48:19.884
White people do love to raise awareness.

00:48:20.284 --> 00:48:21.474
Gotta raise that awareness.

00:48:21.834 --> 00:48:26.574
Look, we should have a day for Ali,
Ali Day, where we raise awareness of

00:48:26.574 --> 00:48:28.084
whatever's on Ali's mind that day.

00:48:28.104 --> 00:48:28.114
Oh

00:48:28.234 --> 00:48:30.254
Sam: man, I've done some
awareness raising myself.

00:48:30.254 --> 00:48:31.014
We're all guilty

00:48:31.014 --> 00:48:31.384
Joe: here.

00:48:31.714 --> 00:48:33.354
You work There's a lot of days.

00:48:33.684 --> 00:48:34.714
Ali: Why work in public service?

00:48:34.714 --> 00:48:35.164
There's a lot of days.

00:48:36.104 --> 00:48:37.454
Joe: Wear, wear purple.

00:48:37.454 --> 00:48:38.174
Wear fun.

00:48:38.204 --> 00:48:38.604
Don't even

00:48:38.604 --> 00:48:38.894
Sam: get me started.

00:48:38.894 --> 00:48:39.404
Oh, hey.

00:48:39.844 --> 00:48:41.254
Teacher's Day was the other day.

00:48:41.444 --> 00:48:43.204
I gave that the big wide berth.

00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:44.499
favourite.

00:48:44.499 --> 00:48:45.616
Joe: You can

00:48:45.616 --> 00:48:47.290
Ali: get mental health.

00:48:47.290 --> 00:48:48.965
Sam: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:48:48.965 --> 00:48:49.523
Guys,

00:48:49.523 --> 00:48:50.640
Joe: guys, guys.

00:48:50.640 --> 00:48:51.756
We're fading.

00:48:51.756 --> 00:48:53.989
We're still recording here.

00:48:53.989 --> 00:48:54.099
I

00:48:54.099 --> 00:48:55.299
Sam: boycott Teacher's Day.

00:48:55.299 --> 00:48:59.279
I told, I told my students to take
no interest in it and they all obeyed

00:48:59.279 --> 00:48:59.529
Joe: me.

00:48:59.629 --> 00:49:01.709
I don't think people are taking
much more interest in this

00:49:01.709 --> 00:49:03.469
episode, so we should shut it down.

00:49:03.569 --> 00:49:04.049
No, no.

00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:04.359
Sam: Yeah.

00:49:04.359 --> 00:49:04.939
No, I agree.

00:49:04.959 --> 00:49:06.599
I just want to add one more thing.

00:49:06.690 --> 00:49:09.107
I think there is something hopeful
to take out of it, which is that

00:49:09.107 --> 00:49:10.607
there's a desire in Ali to...

00:49:11.272 --> 00:49:15.122
To encourage thoughtful and useful
communication and maybe creating a

00:49:15.122 --> 00:49:19.442
note, a little note to self in amongst
the observation about the peers.

00:49:19.882 --> 00:49:24.162
And I'm going to have a bet each
way, genuinely, I do agree with you.

00:49:24.322 --> 00:49:28.132
There's a whole lot of, look
at me, look how right I am.

00:49:28.152 --> 00:49:33.601
Got to say though,  Joe, you're not
wrong to find it annoying, don't

00:49:33.601 --> 00:49:36.758
underestimate the power of self centered.

00:49:37.173 --> 00:49:39.123
Me, me, me, virtue signaling.

00:49:39.203 --> 00:49:41.503
There's a reason it
triggers the right so hard.

00:49:41.813 --> 00:49:43.853
It actually does affect things.

00:49:44.393 --> 00:49:49.392
And whether we think that justice
should look different, oh, justice

00:49:49.392 --> 00:49:53.362
should look like sweat and getting
arrested and hard work and getting

00:49:53.362 --> 00:49:55.282
dirty and it's boring paperwork.

00:49:55.432 --> 00:49:57.432
No, there's vanity in there too.

00:49:57.612 --> 00:50:02.022
I think, so I'm willing to be somewhat
forgiving, but I'm sure the next time I

00:50:02.022 --> 00:50:06.077
see someone just vainly In every sense.

00:50:06.188 --> 00:50:08.858
encouraging me to think they're wise,
then yeah, I'll probably remember

00:50:08.858 --> 00:50:10.968
this and go, yeah, come on, man.

00:50:11.138 --> 00:50:13.628
But I just can't hate on it completely.

00:50:13.628 --> 00:50:15.298
And maybe mainly because I'm guilty.

00:50:15.318 --> 00:50:15.628
I don't know.

00:50:15.688 --> 00:50:16.798
That's probably why.

00:50:17.748 --> 00:50:19.048
Ali: We're all hypocrites
to a certain extent.

00:50:19.078 --> 00:50:19.908
Alright, see ya.

00:50:20.238 --> 00:50:20.838
See ya.