Joe: There's reality, which is loving awareness,
Sam: unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena.
Ali: And then there are the 10, 000
things.
Sam: Hello and welcome to The 10, 000 Things.
My name is Sam
Joe: Ellis.
I'm Joe Loh.
And I'm Ali Catramados.
Today on the show, only posting about shit that you have personal experience of.
This came from a conversation between me and Ali.
Ali got a bit grumpy the other day and we thought we'd talk about it on the show.
Ali, over to you.
Ali: Oh, I just, I was just having a, a sook, and, and I absolutely have
been, or could be guilty of doing this as well, but just white middle class
people posting stuff on social media like, you know, political things and,
you know, and I, I want to preface this with, it's not coming, it's coming from
a place of love usually, and it's, it's, it's wanting to do the right thing.
It's not, it's just more my, I suppose, seeing people post stuff about experiences
they don't have and how, and rather than, my view is that rather than just flooding
an already really noisy discourse, we actually just need to shut the fuck up
and make space for people who actually have those lived experiences to, to be
voicing their concerns and critiques.
Sam: Yeah.
So when you judge, you do it kindly.
Ali: Yeah, I try to, I try to.
Like, I try not to be an arsehole, and I just, and I, like I said,
most of the time it's really well meaning, sometimes it's a little bit
misguided, but sometimes it's just, I also want to just say, yeah, shut the
Sam: fuck up.
Okay, so without naming any of your friends or acquaintances, can we...
Ali: They all do it, everyone does it.
Everyone does it.
Anyone who's got a social media profile will see that you've got your
serial offenders, but most people, particularly at the moment when
there's a lot going on in the world.
Sam: Would you believe I've said nothing about anything of
consequence for quite a long time?
Joe: Yeah, I learnt that too.
I mean, Facebook's kind of dead.
It's stumbling on, I guess, but...
Oh,
Sam: no, man, if you want to find out how cooked the boomers are
about No hang around on Facebook.
I was going
Ali: to say, yeah, like the comments on an ABC article.
I
Joe: mean, that's true.
I mean, that's true going to...
Have a democracy with this huge bulge of boomers and then you just
ignore Facebook because it's not cool and then you turn around and
Yeah, things happen democratically that you don't quite understand.
Sam: Oh, no, no, no, the no vote was no surprise to me because I've
been on boomer book this whole time keeping an eye on things.
All
Joe: right, so Facebook is still somewhat relevant.
Oh, hugely.
Ali, you said I'm one of the few people that still posts on there.
Yeah, you do.
But I don't do...
I think I, I think I said something about maybe Dan Andrews wasn't that bad.
That's about my only political post of the last year.
Oh, did you?
Sam: Yeah.
But that's something like, I would say.
Did you go out on a limb and say, yeah, Dan Andrews is not that bad.
Bloody hell.
Ali: But I feel like people haven't been, like, I think maybe 10 years
ago, a lot of people were saying, might've posted or made a post
about that, whereas I feel like now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Barely a handful.
I think
Joe: most of us have learned to shut the fuck up on social media.
Ali: Is it, is it our age and our demographic or is it just
that it's just no longer the place to have those discussions?
Are we
Sam: all, are we all just over shouting into the void, is that what it is?
I think there's
Ali: a lot of that.
Or there's maybe even...
So
Joe: who are these people that are still doing it?
That's the, that's what I want to know.
I just, I
Ali: think it's, like I said, it's well meaning people, like, and
it's just like, you know, Hang on,
Sam: spill.
Are they a bit older or a bit younger?
What are we talking?
I'd say they're, well,
Ali: they're my age.
Right.
Yeah.
Sam: Okay.
Fascinating stuff.
Joe: And they're just doing a bit of freelancing about
some big political opinions.
Yeah.
And what you should think about them.
Ali: And I think, and this is perhaps my experience, and so for a little bit
of background, I went to an all girls school, a private all girls school.
Um, our voices were very important.
It was also very, uh, you know, a very, um...
Oh, we told you your voices were very important and, you know, it was a
very, I'd say, homogenous kind of...
That was a lie!
Yeah!
Sam: I mean, it's a lie on more than one level.
Yeah.
Uh, I mean
Ali: mean yeah, but like, but that the, the illusion that somehow, yeah, what
we have to say is really important.
Joe: Yeah.
No, no.
But they trained you to be articulate
Sam: as well.
Yes.
No, no.
Look, of course, but also they probably, no, no.
I don't wanna speak for you Ally, but was there, was there a diversity
of opinion that needed to be safeguarded in, you know, or, or
are we talking a fairly uniform?
Ali: It was a pretty uniform.
Um, sort of opinion.
Um, like it was a fairly conservative school, but I would say that the vast
majority was sort of, I suppose, raised, it was very much ingrained in us to
have like a sense of social justice.
That was very much part of like the school, I would say curriculum.
And so you've got a lot of, a lot of those Anglican.
So a lot of those women then went off into the workforce and work.
In, you know, these organizations, you know, not for profits and,
and, and have gone on to do amazing work and do that in their work.
And I'm not saying somebody like that not speak, you know, speaking from, you know,
an experience of what they're seeing in their day to day and, you know, offer an
insight into that, but I'm thinking just more generally just, you know, as a middle
class white person, what do we really have To say as far as like say the voice.
Yeah, you know, like should we like I would be so I would I feel
more comfortable deferring to First Nations people to hear what they
actually have to say because I
Joe: feel like how many First Nations people in your Facebook group
Ali: Yeah, no, I'll take it.
So
Joe: this is the fatal flaw in your plan.
Is that if your white middle class friends stop posting, that just doesn't
mean that suddenly your indigenous and Palestinian friends start posting.
They don't exist.
So all that happens is there's no content.
Which is maybe not a bad thing, but that's
kind of the reality.
Sam: The thing is, I don't, I don't need, I don't look to friends for guidance
on these sort of things, honestly.
And like, I'm, and I don't need the spokesperson for oppressed minority
to be someone I actually know, I verify or derive trust in other ways.
And for example, the meta algorithm on Instagram knows
exactly what I want right now.
And I'm not spending a long time on there.
But it is like, it's, it's, it's Orthodox Jewish person telling
me the occupation needs to end.
It's old Jewish professor telling me the occupation needs to end.
It
Joe: knows where it out a bit.
So there's only a few people posting on Facebook really, and they've
annoyed you a little bit, but whatever.
They're not really taking up a space that would be taken up
by some mythical other person.
But what about people sharing things?
from decent sources about big world, cause I suppose that's
where my ick kicks in a little bit.
It's like people sharing stuff that's way beyond their pay grade
of stuff they could ever really
Sam: understand.
Are you on the same page, you two, with this rant that Ali went on with you?
Joe: I roll my eyes on Instagram, where I'm just there to post cute photos
and see cute photos of cute people.
Oh yeah.
When there's some heavy duty political stuff posted there.
Yeah.
From someone who is, you know, if...
I remember I had a, I had a girlfriend in 2020.
And she was fucking smart, economist, like, really switched on person.
But there was some trend that went around where it was like, Turkish women are
being silenced, post a photo of yourself.
And she posted a hot photo of herself and all their friends.
She was 32 or whatever, she's a bit younger than me.
Sam: I'm not mad about any of this.
Joe: Yeah, but I was like, what's with the, I said to her, what's with
the posting the hot photo for the Turkish women oppressed by Erdogan?
And she's like, oh.
It's just an excuse to post a hot photo.
Hey, hey, come on.
Like she was...
Come on.
I'm not saying she wasn't...
She was smarter than me, you know.
But like, but, but I had an ick around that where I'm like, really?
Ali: I have an ick about that.
Or like, or
Joe: like people who went...
Sam's, Sam's fine with it.
I remember during the, the, the Black Lives Matters, like
people all posted black tiles.
Yeah.
Sam: Sure.
Joe: And I posted a photo of the sandwich I was eating that day because
it was pissing me off, you know?
Sam: Okay.
Joe: Because it's like, I don't...
I never should have gone on Facebook and ranted, and once I stopped
drinking, I stopped doing that, and it was a good move for my life.
And the other week when I posted something about Dan Andrews,
it wasn't a long rant about how amazing he was, it was just like...
Oh, maybe he wasn't that bad.
And that was only a response to a few people like rejoicing him, him retiring.
Right?
It was a, it was a mild response.
Sam: Come on, you knew what you were getting into
Joe: and I thought I might start a fight and I did not.
I was a fight on Facebook.
I think it's those days are gone.
Then Instagram, it's like, wow, is it really the place?
I don't know.
That's, you know, like, I feel like Twitter was, was that place if you,
if you, and I was no good at Twitter, so I didn't get anywhere with it.
Sam: No, super confusing.
Joe: so that was the place for politics.
Facebook is a place to, to know who's, who's birthdays, and what.
How racist that guy went to grade four is now.
Sam: I've said this before, I love seeing my dad's content on there
and, you know, like stuff like that.
And I, like I said, it gave me an absolutely amazing insight into what the,
I don't know, I guess over fifties and sixties thought about the referendum.
And man, there were lots of passionate older people on both
sides and for all sorts of reasons.
And, Like, for example, my dad posted many times about it, and I would not,
and for the yes side, just to be clear, and passionately supporting the yes side,
and willing to take a little bit of heat over it, and because he does have some
mates that, you know, were pretty cross.
He never posts anything ill considered, even if it's outside of his experience.
Joe: But in Ali's scheme of things, of what this topic of this podcast is about,
is if he doesn't have personal experience of that shit, and that shit is being...
Indigenous.
Should he be posting?
Under your regime, he would not be
posting.
Sam: No, no, but what he has his personal experience of, you know, watching the
Australian political system for a very, very, very long time and reading, just
reading a ton of news and current affairs, like he's well rounded, none of, like
he's in a position to repost an article.
With a brief comment at the top,
Joe: what I would say
Ali: reposting, like sharing an article or sharing, like say
an opinion piece of somebody.
Yeah.
Like say for the, you know, he's a First Nations person speaking to that.
Sam: He's not centering himself.
Ali: That's it.
I think that's the thing is in that, like you said, like.
Your ex girlfriend, like she's posting a photo of herself and making it about
herself rather than, you know, people taking selfies in front of these,
like, or making it about themselves.
It's a bit of a
Nicky Wynmar thing, you know, it's like, Hey, I'm Turkish.
I'm beautiful.
I'm brown.
I'm here.
Joe: No.
Well, she was not Turkish, but Yeah.
Yeah.
Like I, I think it should be, no, it wasn't just Turkish women.
It was all women posted photo.
It was just something that went around.
Sam: Oh, weird.
Joe: But those things go around a bit.
Yeah, yeah.
But she didn't care.
Like she was totally self-aware that the only reason she was doing it
was to get a hot photo up, up there.
Oh.
Yeah.
Okay.
She didn't have any cringe about.
Sam: So ali, this is like, this is like the, the apex of the thing you're talking
about, like putting yourself in the middle of it and doing nothing useful.
Ali: Absolutely nothing constructive, useful, or, and I think, I think
that's where I, I like, is this contributing to the discourse
in a meaningful or helpful way?
That's where What goes around isn't
Sam: guys.
I just thought a hot photo of me might help everyone calm down.
Let's all just take a moment and smell the roses.
You know, appreciate, appreciate something
beautiful.
Joe: That's how I felt about my one, my photo of a really nice sandwich
during the, everyone else's black tiles.
Sam: It's the same impulse.
Joe: I don't know.
Yeah, no, no, no.
But, but yeah, maybe, so maybe Ali's regime is a bit harsh and maybe
your dad posting well considered things is about stuff he does.
What I would say is this though, stuff that I have lived experience
of, It's the powerful stuff.
So when I've posted about sobriety or mental illness, that's when I've got
the most likes, the most engagement.
That's when people contacted me and said, I really moved them.
Compared to my half baked political opinions, and that's how I learned, and
when we started this show, Sam, you have a lot of fucking information in your
brain about a lot of things and a lot of current events and all of that, and I
kept saying to you, we need to come back.
to you being a Hare Krishna, you having ADHD.
when we got Alia, she's got the bipolar, she's got the
ADHD, the autism, all of that.
Why?
Not because what you might have to say about the Middle East isn't interesting,
but no one, you're not an expert.
No one's looking to me for it.
But you are an expert on being raised Hare Krishna.
I actually have been following that region for quite a long time and fairly
closely at times, but guess what?
I've searched my soul and I've not been able to find.
A statement that I wanted to make, and that I thought would be useful,
and that's, that's, you know...
No offence, no one's tuning in for the Sam Ellis...
No, no, but there might be...
Like, Sam Ellis fixes the Middle East podcast.
Let
Sam: me propose the...
The grey area, like case by case problem that we're actually facing
in this conversation because I would love to just adopt a shorthand
like middle class white women be quiet and then, and then obviously
include myself in that basically,
Ali: but it's just, it's not just women.
I should, I should preface it.
It's just like middle class white people just need
Sam: to be quiet.
I think.
Yeah.
And there's probably a lot of truth in that.
And especially if.
You know, they're well out of their lane, and it's a strong take, and you
know, it's lacking in detail, it's not particularly well contextualized, etc.
I'm 100 percent with you, but the real issue is the lineball cases, and the,
so, the Jesuits with their case by case basis, we cannot, there's no universal
principle we can adopt, we have to case by case everything, which is like
very tiresome, but it's, truly, it's the only way to do things properly.
And the problem for me is...
where there is an ambiguity about where everyone stands on a particular issue.
And there are some, there are some issues that do better if
everyone reveals their hand.
So if there's a body of feeling that is not being stated about
something, it can leave sort of middle ground people in some doubt
and then they may think, Oh, I don't.
Yeah, basically sometimes there are undecided peers that need guidance,
and they actually are looking
Ali: And like the, you know, the silent majority
Sam: is like No, they're looking to the herd.
Well, they may not be aware, for example, you know, this happened in a staff
meeting and I don't want to trigger anyone, like, it's not the kind of thing
I expected to hear, but basically I heard some like, very libelous rhetoric about
trans people, like, in a staff meeting.
And so like, this is a context.
Where I'm going to take to Facebook and like subtweet like what went on
the meeting, but what I am going to do is I'm going to put my hand up and I'm
going to make a two minute statement that compacts the things that they need.
Anyone who's in that meeting who's undecided about whether this is
It's safe, or non libelous content.
I just need to dispel that illusion immediately, and I need everyone to
know the facts, and to understand that if you pursue this rhetoric,
not only is it dangerous for trans people, it's actually counterproductive
for women as well, in every sense.
Within the staff meeting.
Yeah.
To 20 people.
Yeah.
Because there was...
Joe: So let me ask you this.
So I'm not Sorry, Ali, I'm yeah, no, I
Ali: was just going to say like with the, but having that, like having conversations
as they happen, having those discussions, white people talking amongst themselves,
that absolutely, I'm not, I was just talking more, I suppose, in the public
forum, but I think absolutely appropriate, you know, in that, you know, situation.
Yeah.
And
Sam: of course it is a public forum, but it's like a very small public forum.
And like, for me, I'd make that as like, that's a clearly in.
Okay, so that's not a lineball, right?
So the lineball's somewhere between that and like...
Okay, let me tell you what's in my mind.
The thing that I imagine sometimes is...
There's someone undecided out there, and just the right two
sentences could come their way.
Joe: That's an illusion.
And could...
How many minds do you think have ever been changed, or have been changed by
social media in the last ten years?
Well, I've got...
Maybe at the start, when people were listening, but people...
Sam: I've got
Joe: many examples from My online contribution to the yes campaign was
taking a photo of my dear old mum, handing out how to votes for the
yes campaign, and posting, here's my mum, the lefty ratbag, handing out
how to votes for the yes campaign.
That was my one statement on the yes campaign.
But I do not, do not
ever think that I will change a single person's mind on social media.
Yeah, okay.
Well, I think that you don't actually that's a dry gully and I think I
Sam: think overall you might be right, but there are marginal cases but also I
don't know I want to disagree with you your model about human decision making
is incomplete and that for people forget all the times they've changed their
minds like and I've said this before on the pod There's a whole science to this.
Basically, we heal over the scars and, like, maintain this illusion that we've
been the same person the whole time.
Which is, like, a bad concept to carry around for lots of reasons.
Like, it gets in the way of psychological progress quite apart from anything else.
But also, it means that we would be convinced that we'll never
change anyone else's mind and no one's ever changed our mind.
But, like, I can think of many occasions.
Where I came across the right content, not necessarily from a friend, but
like, the algo, And it changed my perspective almost immediately.
Like, this has happened many times, but maybe I'm weird
Joe: and different.
Yeah, I mean I'm, I'm wider, I'm too susceptible.
I, I'll basically take on whole, like I've spoken about it before, I'll
read one blogger for a month and then I'll just have all their opinions.
Yeah, I'm wide open.
I'm completely open.
yeah.
You know, I'm a completely open field for other people's
opinions and I, the one thing I've learned is to watch out for that.
Yeah.
and I can't switch it off.
So what I do is folk try and be really aware of what I'm taking in,
if I'm taking in too much of one thing, which, like, I, I've, I stopped
reading some of these, these two bloggers that I spent a year reading.
Mm-Hmm.
That was time for a change anyway.
Yeah.
And, and the year, the years before that, I, I spent a couple of years
reading The Economist and I had these.
Incredibly articulate, centrist positions on everything, because
that's what all I was reading.
And, yeah, so, it's like, so I'm wide open, I just don't know if, how open,
and maybe you're right, but Ali When these people are posting their middle
class white stuff, is it sparking debates that you can see in the comments and
then things are getting worked out?
No, it's mostly getting ignored.
Or
Ali: or boy or whatever?
Yeah, or just mostly getting ignored.
I would say.
Yeah.
Sam: Yeah.
And look, I think if a lot of it gets treated with the contempt it deserves,
and I'm including my own comments here a lot of the time, and you know,
just it, something being ignored is way more hurtful than getting a
pile on even like, you know, and it does send the message eventually.
but you know, there were times, yeah, look, I'm not going to claim
to have an enormous track record of like rescuing drowning puppies
here or anything, but I do think.
Um, I do think I've thrown a couple of starfish back, you
know, like, and that's about it.
Like I've put a lot of work in and it's not a lot to
Joe: show.
Have you ever posted about your own struggles with, say ADHD on Facebook?
No.
No, no, no.
Have you ever seen what impact you could have by revealing
some vulnerability rather than
Sam: being an expert on things?
No, no, no.
I've been vulnerable in a different way.
And actually, now that you mention it, the one thing I could mention
as a listener of the show, Craig, there's one thing I wanted to mention.
I didn't really change his mind about a particular issue.
It was more just like a shift in perspective.
That he was ready for anyway, and then I say something and it like, it just, it
forms a small piece of like a change in the heart that was taking place anyway.
And other people have done that for me, right?
And that's what, that's kind of the thing I'm more interested in is change
of heart anyway, rather than change of mind, if you can separate those two.
But I didn't know this at the time, but yeah, he said years later, you know, just.
I can't even remember what the issue was, it might have been Brexit or
something, and obviously feelings were high, he's Australian, he lives over
there, hasn't done for a very long time.
And, you know, he was, like a lot of people at the time, struggling
with the outcome of that decision, and, kind of like we are now.
And I think I said something that just made him feel less
cross and less hopeless.
And just little by little, it kind of, it was a perspective that he took on.
And it's not one I've always lived by myself, but it was kind of along the lines
of, yes, we can and probably should be mad at the really cynical people who were
spreading lies in Brexit, but I don't know how mad we should be at Kind of the little
people, you know, the kind of small R racists who are just kind of shit kickers.
I don't know how much,
Ali: but that's how much, how much, yeah.
What you're going to say is going to, it's like, yeah, I would use the
argument of like, you know, talking to.
So you're trying to convince my conservative boomer parents of something
it is like against a brick wall right like it is it's like there's there's gonna be
so people just dug in with their opinions that you just no matter what you say it's
not going to they're not gonna change have a change of heart or a change of mind
Joe: I wouldn't no there's no nuance either and that's what Like a format
like this is much better to us because we talk a lot of shit, but
like, yeah, to listen to someone in depth for an hour and a half.
I know you're a big fan of that.
That's, that's, that's the experiences I've had.
If I've, if I've spent an hour really listening to someone, that's,
that's changed things for me.
Um, What I would say is that maybe Ali's gone a little bit hard.
But I would say that if people want to actually connect with what they're
putting out into the world in whatever format, be vulnerable, make it about
your personal experience, your lived experience, and stick to things
that you actually are somewhat of an expert in, and you will get traction.
If you just add fucking bullshit to a bullshit fire, then
like, you know, it's, it's...
Yeah, like it's just not gonna, it's just gonna do what you're
talking about, which is you post something, everyone ignores it.
You feel a bit crap, you haven't even, like, what have you achieved, you know?
Ali: There's better use of your time, is what I feel, but like, like you,
Joe, like I similarly, the very few times I've ever spoken about anything,
I suppose, mental health related on social media, and it's not often, like
I don't put a lot out there, but the few times, that's when I've had the
most meaningful, I suppose, feedback or people message me then directly about
stuff, and I think, yeah, because it's coming from a place of experience,
like, and I think those things.
Yeah, I would write, I would search out experiences like that and, and
I suppose voices from friends or people who are experiencing things
directly, rather than, you know, just a white person speaking for everyone.
But
Joe: then there's the other cringe and people find it cringe if people
share about mental health on Facebook, you know, and, but it just depends.
Like if the share on mental health on Facebook is.
When the people don't do it anymore, but they did 10 years
ago, oh, having a down day today.
Oh, you see, and I
Ali: didn't, that wasn't so, yeah, no, no, I see, it wasn't stuff like that,
but like, I might, but like, yeah.
Joe: It's gotta be, like, a bit of a story, it's gotta be a bit of a narrative.
Yeah, there's gotta be
Ali: something to it, like, I did something at New Year's last
year, like, I just sort of was...
You know, like a little personal wrap up of what was quite an unhinged year
for me personally and like a lot of people reached out and messaged me about
that and I just wanted to say thank you to some people that, you know, that's
one of the very few times I've ever posted on Facebook in recent memory.
Yeah,
Joe: and I think you're someone that people would say, it's like all the
people that write into us constantly.
to tell us to stop interrupting you and we have meetings about it and
we try and do it and whatever but you're just so much more polite than
me and Sam that it's quite hard.
I think that you're someone that people think you have a
good perspective on things.
Yeah, agreed.
I mean, listeners to the show have written in and said the same thing, so people
want to hear more from you, you know.
It's true.
But you don't sit there thinking Oh, the way to, you know, give people
more of what's in my head is just to post about whatever's in the news.
Like you've actually got this format now and...
Sam: Yeah, okay, I think, look, I think I guess it's useful to say...
If it's all getting filtered through, like if your statement is really just
kind of just a pale echo of whatever the narrative is in the mainstream media
on that particular day, or even just, no, no, sorry, I'm going to introduce
a fancy term, whatever the dominant narratives are in the information space
at that time, don't talk about media.
It's an information space.
Okay, that's a thing I learned on
Joe: the weekend.
I've been talking about the information environment, but
only for the last week or two.
Someone, someone did ask my opinion on the...
on the referendum.
And I said, I think it has a lot to say about our information environment.
Yeah.
Big time.
That's what I think.
Yep.
I think it's a referendum on that.
Because so confused.
Yep.
Big time.
Uh, I think it was like, how's your information environment?
Oh, it's poor.
It's
Sam: cooked.
Joe: Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, which is no joke, but if you didn't laugh, you know.
Uh,
Sam: yeah.
No, it is, it is funny to me because.
I've been living with this knowledge for a really, really long time.
But you know what
Joe: happened at the last federal election was...
Somehow dropped into the information environment was Skomo is a dickhead,
and then that just spread like wildfire and that was it because
Sam: clearly it was helicoptered in by
Joe: headquarters, not a progressive country looking to do progressive
things for some reason people just decided to vote against
Morrison all of a sudden, right?
If you look at the referendum, we're not a progressive
Sam: country.
No, no, no, no.
See, that's not...
So what
Joe: happened in the same intervention environment, you
elected a Labor government, but how?
That's what the referendum got me wondering.
Sam: Well, you're averaging a bunch of stuff here and then concluding
that everything's in the middle.
That's not how it works.
Like, there are plenty of extreme positions in this country, progressive,
anti, like, reactionary, and then there's a real rainbow spectrum in between.
So it's not that there's no appetite for progressive action in this
country, but it is It's inchoate.
The energies aren't being directed in any particular direction.
So that's the main issue that I see.
What
Joe: does inchoate
Sam: mean?
Oh, it hasn't started to, it's not lumping.
It's like incoherent.
Yeah, inchoate.
It's not lumping together.
Right.
It's incoherent and inchoate.
It's not, like, basically, social movements happen when, this is going
to go against everything we've just said to a degree, social movements
happen when people, instead of just reacting to headlines and having a hot
take, So it's half of what you guys said and half of what I'm saying, that
the herd makes decisions, believe it or not, by listening to what everyone
is saying, and maybe even disagreeing with an awful lot of what they're
hearing, but then seeing, oh, all their heads are starting to point this way.
Yeah.
And when about 60...
55, 60 percent of the heads start pointing one way.
Guess what happens?
The herd
Joe: goes there.
How else can you go from Obama to Trump, right?
Yeah.
No.
And, and, but the funny thing is in your herd or in, like in mine in
Footscray or in yours here in Thornberry and yours in Preston, we're talking
like 90 percent of people voting yes.
Right.
If you look at the polling booths.
Yeah.
So we're in this, but, but see, I know that I'm in the bubble.
Yeah.
So, and I have kicked against it somewhat by becoming a bit more centrist.
Yeah.
Cause I'm so sick of everyone having the same fucking opinion on everything.
No, that's fair.
That's fair.
But I also find other people's opinions, like outside the bubble, completely toxic.
Why don't you just go far right?
Sam: Really differentiate yourself.
You have alt right, Joe.
Joe: Well, yeah, I mean, I've flirted with the alt right.
Yeah, you have.
Like, at times, It's
Sam: there to be
Joe: flirted with.
That's what it's for.
And the herd thing.
It's like, oh
Ali: man.
You just want to be a rebel.
It's just like, it's just rebelling against
Joe: like...
No, but it's contrarian.
I know a few people who are just contrarians on everything.
It's,
Sam: it's...
If they detect a majority emerging, they go
Joe: the other way.
Northgate and voted no, did it purely to be a contrarian.
Sure.
Or possibly.
Like they found some marginal position that they could then secretly go and...
And
Sam: you know what?
And quite a few people voted no because they thought that a lot
of other people were going to.
And they want to back the winning side and they're not really that invested.
And that's why News Corp ran so hard.
on Aussies don't want this, Aussies don't want this.
That's what they said from the very beginning.
And I remember hearing an analysis basically 18 months ago, a
communication strategist saying, here's what I'm thinking right now
if I'm yes, here's what I'm thinking right now if I'm the no campaign.
They need to go, they can't go too hard on the anger.
They need to mainly emphasize nothing in it for you and
everyone else is thinking no.
So just stick to those two messages, which is what they basically did,
and then provide a little bit of permission in the form of, this
won't really help blackfellas anyway.
So they gave them those three things, and just did it very consistently, and then
we had KUKA, far right, genuine Nazi stuff starting to come in as well on Sky News.
So
Joe: yeah.
My uninformed take is it became very much upper middle class, inner city liberals.
A, a issue.
It looked like that to me.
Yeah.
From somewhat outside of that class.
I wasn was strongly invested in it class.
Yeah.
I wasn't.
And you know, I remember we were at a party a couple of weeks out and I'm one of
these treaty s we were joking about Yeah.
We were joking about someone having a a Yes.
Sign out the front because they're middle class.
Well it and that the yes sign became, I'm part of the upper middle
class . It made you, and that's not a majority in this country.
Sam: That's not a majority.
This is what I'm saying, this herd thing.
It affects freethinkers like you and me, just as much as it affects the masses.
This is what I'm saying.
I felt that same shame about putting up a yes sign.
I'm like, this is not where the herd's at.
It was
Joe: a political
Sam: disaster.
And I knew it was.
I saw it coming from, I don't mean to sound like such a smart
ass, but the whole thing did not.
Like I remember when I first heard about the Statement from the Heart and
the Uluru thing, and I'm like, yeah, they're gearing up for a thing here.
And I just saw this three years ahead of time and going, this
is not where to put the energy.
This has, this has a real...
Joe: Coming back to the topic, all of us, and I think we need to hear from Ali.
Yeah.
God knows our listeners want to hear more from Ali.
Yeah.
Coming back to the topic, all of us basically played dead
on the referendum, right?
100%.
We certainly didn't do a show about it, uh, we didn't post about
it, I've posted one photo of it.
No, no, no, we endorsed
Sam: it quietly.
Quietly.
Joe: Four or five weeks ahead.
yeah, of course, we should do something.
Sam: Yeah, we're all voting, we just confirmed we're all voting yes.
That's it.
But
Joe: we didn't get excited about it, we weren't posting about it.
Did you see?
I saw
Ali: a lot
Joe: of people posting about it.
I saw a lot of people online getting very excited about it.
Yeah, for sure.
Sam: I
Joe: was actually surprised.
All those same people now want me to sign a petition to somehow stop a war
in the Middle East from Melbourne.
And I'm like, what the fuck?
I thought you were in mourning from the fucking referendum.
No.
When do you get to this?
Come on, we can.
Do
Sam: you ever get a day off?
No, you can't.
. We can chew gum and walk at the same time.
No,
Joe: but just can't you work out that you're completely fucking like impotent?
Sam: Well, no, that's where we don't agree, Joe.
See,
Joe: you think just, you know.
Sam: So you think people power is non-existent.
You're basically, you're not persuaded that there's any such
thing as social movements because you haven't seen one for a while.
But you've forgotten what you and your kind did at Jabba Luka.
You've forgotten.
Yeah.
Joe: Or on the docks with the MUA.
I was at, I've been at a lot of frontline protests.
That, that was before
Sam: social media.
Now stopping, yeah, stopping a war, that's a whole nother story, but nonetheless.
Well,
Ali: I was going to say like an interesting one that happened, I
suppose, in the time of social media that was a social change was like
marriage equality that we did see.
Yeah.
That was just a home
Joe: run.
Ali: Yeah.
Yeah.
But, but like, I think that.
As far as seeing like a social movement on social media in a positive
Sam: way.
Yeah, the groundwork was laid for that 15 years earlier.
A lot of careful work was done over a very long
Ali: period.
Yeah.
So I think like, it's one thing, yeah, to be like just sharing things.
Yeah, that you've seen.
Versus like, like the actual groundwork or like, as you would say, quiet
supporting, which is like stuff you do behind the scenes or stuff you do,
discussions you're having with people directly or organisations you choose to
support, you know, that sort of thing.
Joe: So, I mean, but what I'm saying is it's the same people that, you know, the
people who are going to post about the latest issue and you roll your fucking
Sam: eyes.
Well, yeah, I mean, I do too sometimes, but then I'm like, look,
man, I'm glad someone is out there.
Doing something like on this, at least, even if it's just to like, cause look,
don't forget the consensus on not talking about the actual politics on the ground,
the facts on the ground over there.
But I will say this, we need to keep in mind how much the consensus has
shifted and like people, this is what I'm saying, about talking about.
Invading Gaza and things like that, because even just talking about this,
a lot of people were very nervous about criticizing Israeli domestic or foreign
policy for a very, very, very long time.
And basically there's a whole bunch of people who just kept shtum for
a very, very, very long time about things that they felt were not right,
but they were worried that they would cause a greater harm by speaking up.
So all of that seems to have shifted.
And I'm
Ali: very quickly I might add, it's very like
Joe: I want this to be a show that people can listen to in a year's time.
So I'm wary of talking about things that It bears on the matter at hand.
I'm about it was decided.
I didn't want to talk about it before it was decided because it won't
Sam: age very well.
None of us had to discuss that.
Joe: We all knew.
And
Sam: I about the discourse.
I'm talking about how people feel they need to say something.
And I'm not going to shit on that.
Because I've seen plenty of evidence of bad things go down in that part of
the world, and no one really say much.
So, to see someone saying, look, mind you though, that's not quite right,
because I had friends running the, or acquaintances running the blockade.
Way back when, like, in the Mediterranean, so, like, I've actually kind of been
in and around this issue for a really, really, really long time, including
around people that really know
Joe: their stuff.
Oh yeah, and it's the, it's the pet issue, Palestinian causes, the pet
issue of leftists of the last 20 years.
Well, it has been since the second intifada, yes.
So I know who the ones who are going to pipe up on it.
And to, to, to be fair, if they're there at the rally on Sunday
in Melbourne, full respect.
And if you're posting yourself a photo of yourself at a fucking
rally, I actually respect that.
No, I
Sam: was going to say that's fine.
It's not that it takes
Joe: guts.
I don't know.
No, I think it does.
But I think that it shows that you've, you're willing to get
off your ass and off your phone and actually go and be somewhere.
And I've been to climate rallies and I'll go to more climate rallies.
Yeah.
so I kind of respect that more.
Look, I do find it interesting who pops up and he, oh, someone who's 10, 20
years younger than me popping up with a Palestinian flag and I, I just note
that and think, oh, that's interesting.
Sam: there's been a, yeah, a grounds, a ground shift.
Ali: Within like a matter of
Joe: a week.
Yeah.
It's been huge.
But, but I strongly, strongly feel.
That no one needs my fucking opinion.
No,
Sam: but
Joe: that's where you're wrong.
I don't know how much further from my lived
Sam: experience.
They don't need a detailed, they don't need, they I don't think they
need, I don't think they need...
Joe: No one's asking us to vote on this.
Sam: They don't need you sounding like an expert.
Ali: Yeah, no, they don't need your opinion, but they, but I
don't think there's any harm in sharing other people's stories.
I wrote to Ali.
Sam: That's right.
Joe: Ali started posting about Gaza and I wrote...
Centering voices.
Yes.
Yeah.
Ali started posting about Gaza on Instagram.
Oh, interesting.
And I wrote to her and I said, really, Ali, you're really
going to be posting about this?
Silencing.
Ali.
Sam: Joe.
And...
Joe: I'm disappointed.
Well, she's a middle class, she's actually working class, she just thinks
Sam: she's middle Okay, Joe.
Guess, guess who, guess who spoke up against horrors all
through the 20th century?
Often, it was white middle class people.
And guess who marched besides the people at Selma?
The Jewish
Joe: Antith So Ali, was it really you want to get embroiled in this
particular ancient fucking word?
No, it's not,
Sam: not an ancient
Joe: converse.
No, no, no, let's not get sidetracked.
Okay.
But Ali?
Ali: I, what it was is seeing, and I, and I, again, being really careful
not to share any of My, cause I have no, absolutely no personal,
you know, experience of that.
Yeah.
but sharing things that I felt really just questioned my sense of humanity,
really horrific things that I feel like we need to all be aware of this.
And whether it, I am posting it into the void, which I don't think I am, because
quite a few people actually responded to it, responding to it, on both, you
know, with very different takes, but um, but I think, I think the more people
that can, we need to be, I think What's going on now, people need to be aware
and I felt that that was important.
So you're
Joe: doing the exact thing that this topic of this show came from
you telling people not to do.
I'm a hypocrite.
Sam: no, okay, but let's do the checklist.
Were you centering yourself?
Ali: No, I was absolutely, yeah, no, it was absolutely not.
I shared our Jazira footage.
Yeah, that's it.
That was it, like I felt, you know, that
Sam: it's...
Yeah.
At some point, because it's not just the information itself, or, you know, the
images itself or whatever that you're resharing, what you're, the metadata.
is important and the metadata is, I find this to be of significance and I'm,
I think this is, I'm going to turn my head towards this and you're inviting
others to turn their heads towards it.
Don't underestimate the power of that and yes, white middle class women actually
have done a hell of a lot of good.
I'll, I'll, there, I'll say it.
Yeah, no,
Ali: I'm, I'm, I'm, like I feel like.
Like the overall, who knows, but the topic came across as like very
judgy and bitchy, which I really, I'm a hundred percent there for it.
I want to have it both ways, but I feel like, yeah, there is nuance in it.
And I feel that, yeah, we need to, yeah, each, like you said, it's
a case by case, discussion rather than just, you know, a blanket rule.
But I do think, you know, it is okay to like hang shit on middle class
white people because, you know.
Joe: I mean, this is a case where I think you should practice what
you preach and shut the fuck up.
Sam: You might, look, you might tempt me, you might tempt me to like, raise
an eyebrow if you went, uh, uh, I don't know, Hey everyone, do you like my, uh,
Palestine flag cupcakes or something?
I don't know.
I'd be like, I'd be tempted.
No, I'd be like, nah, you know what, it's, it's something.
That's what I'd say.
Look, I just got an email today.
From a member of my, you know, my sub branch of the union, asking us if
we're going to pass a motion or not.
And, you know, not just a question for me to consider, but a
question for everyone to consider.
And it's like, oh, well, it might seem silly, but like...
Joe: A motion on what?
Sam: Basically taking a position.
They're asking to take a formal
Joe: position.
Does anyone realise where we live?
Do you realise how irrelevant we are?
Ali: We have family and friends over there.
Sam: It matters.
It does matter.
Anywhere less relevant than
Joe: where we live.
No,
Ali: but like, like, I'm talking to my friend in Lebanon, like every other
day, checking in on him and that's how I, I mean, and I'm asking him and
he should be posting and that's fine.
And he is.
Joe: Yeah.
Like, and you could post about your friend in Lebanon.
I think that's fine.
But I just think.
Generally posting about the Middle East, it's just like, fuck, it's
exactly what you're talking about and I agree with you and now we've turned
it complete 180 and it's like oh well no, actually I definitely should be
posting about Gaza and it's like,
Sam: no.
I don't think, look, it's not like But it's not like you went out and staked
out like a particularly hot territory.
You just kind of like go here.
But yeah, it
Ali: wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't a position.
It wasn't a side.
It wasn't, it wasn't.
Joe: You said, we, we can't take, we can't feel bad about what one
group of children dying and not feel bad about the other group.
Sam: I think that's a pretty good statement.
I'm fine with that.
Joe: But it's taking a
Ali: position.
No, but like, no, it really wasn't.
Sam: No, it's
Ali: taking humanity's position.
Yeah, the footage I shared was just simply sharing something that is
going on over there at the moment.
And I felt that that was worthy of, of people seeing.
Sam: Yeah.
But I, I go, you're not imagining it, Ali, that you feel this
way, but we're not imagining
Joe: your Insta stories.
I expect to see.
Some stupid meme about being a Sagittarius, and instead I'm creating
some gruesome image of a hospital, and it's like, whoa, it's just like, I just
don't think Instagram is that place, like, it's either one or the other, it's a
Sam: category error.
Joe: Nah, man.
It's just like, it's either trash or it's not trash.
And Instagram is pure trash.
Nah, I see.
I disagree.
And you can't then put serious heavy duty shit.
Man,
Sam: everyone said Twitter was just for, like, for irrelevancies and like, uh...
And look how bad that's ended up.
No, no, Hold on.
Hold on.
Everyone's forgetting how crucial that was in a number of...
Well, like the Arab
Joe: Spring.
Yeah, the Arab Spring didn't fucking work out anyway.
No, agreed, but...
It was exciting at the time.
But
Sam: the platform had an impact on events.
Yeah.
That's all I'm saying.
But there, but, but,
Joe: but what I'm saying is I don't think there is a platform at the moment.
Good one.
No,
Sam: I disagree.
Meta good one.
I hate, I hate to give everyone the bad news, but meta is kind
of kicking ass at the moment.
Unfortunately.
I, I,
Joe: I don't see it.
I don't, I don't see anywhere where I would go to see my,
Sam: I'm not saying they're do, I'm not saying they're doing good work,
but they're winning the information
Joe: space.
I don't, yeah.
See I, 'cause I don't wanna be on Twitter.
It's horrible.
I want trash on Instagram.
Yeah, Facebook is a fucking dumpster fire.
Of course, at best that's when something's happening.
But nine, nine time
Sam: dad's sunset
Joe: photos are on there.
Well, 99% of the time nothing's happening on Facebook.
That's what I see.
Sure.
I get my Cricket Club updates and that's it.
No, I was hearing from Nazis in New, I tried to be on Threads.
I tried, I thought, I thought I'll try threads 'cause it's
a new platform and whatever.
Sure.
And I've already got an Instagram account.
Yeah.
Within two weeks I was somehow getting, oh no.
X like non stop posts about Donald Trump, who is someone I do not want to
think about until next November, man.
You followed the wrong accounts.
I did.
I tried not to though, Sam.
I don't have a particular interest in American politics at the moment.
I get nice
Sam: ladies telling me about books and like, Oh, I wrote this poem.
Anyway, my
Ali: experience is.
Mine's all just like people with poor mental health sharing their
poor Oh, I get a lot of that.
That's all my social media.
Can you not
Joe: see what I'm saying?
That Ali's like consistently...
Light hearted.
This is what music I'm listening to.
Here's a meme about being bipolar.
You're telling it to go back to cats.
Ali: Just stay
Joe: on brand.
Well, get on threads and share your fucking Gaza stuff or get a Twitter
account or go somewhere else where people want news at that moment.
Maybe I've just been reading the news for four hours.
Instagram is the white middle
Sam: class woman's domain.
That's where she speaks.
Alright, let's
Joe: finish up.
But in the end, the conclusion of people should only post shit they have heard.
The conclusion of the people should only post shit they have
personal experience of topic is that
Sam: Ali doesn't do it.
She has personal experience of being horrified by images she saw.
Right,
Joe: so suddenly we've broadened it out to just post whatever
you want on any platform.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
One minute it's a Sagittarius joke, one minute it's a cat photo.
Oh look, there's someone's guts ripped out.
Sam: Welcome to post modern, post modernity.
All of this was described in 1985 by Frederick Jamison.
It's
Joe: all flattened.
Welcome to the present.
It all has a similar
Sam: impact.
Oh my God, you read these essays in like 1995.
All of this has been described and said and done.
It's just reality.
It's what we live in.
You don't
Joe: really do it.
Ali's out there doing it.
She's, she's the problem.
I am the problem.
Sam: Have you seen my reshares?
It's all kinds of, it's all over the shelf.
Ali: Sam likes a political reshare.
I've seen you share some.
Sam: But I'll also reshare like, he's a funny guy and
Ali: I'll share anything that takes your interest.
And I think that's the thing, like our social media is a
reflection of us as complex.
People who are, and unless you're trying to curate a certain experience
of like very certain, like it's always going to be a bit of everything.
Joe: I'm always touched by Sam's post because I know that someone
is watching Greens speeches in parliament and posting them.
Oh, there's a Greens Senator making a speech and Sam's
posted that up and good for Sam.
I'm sure him and that guy with the hyphen in his name will get together
one day and have a chamomile tea.
Oh,
Sam: I love it.
I love it.
Do you know what?
I love how much hate Max Chandler Mather attracts, because it
tells me I'm onto something.
This guy's a star, I'm telling you.
Anyway, I think we should wrap it up.
He upsets you.
I don't know where that went.
No, no, I think it was fun.
And it went serious for a bit there too.
Sorry everyone.
Well, we
Joe: pretty much stayed out of Gaza.
Yeah, we did.
We certainly didn't invade.
God knows we don't want to do a three hour
Sam: episode on that.
No, no, no, no, no.
It's beyond our expertise.
I'll agree with that.
I don't think it's beyond anyone's expertise, though, to say...
Gee guys, I'm a bit upset by what I'm seeing, I'm, you know, I'm worried that
there's an awful lot of human suffering taking place, um, on all sides, I'm
very concerned that it might become a larger problem, I'm very concerned that
there might be some cynical people that are to some degree behind this or...
Yes, but also just a whole lot of stuff, momentum and things happening.
It's not just being orchestrated.
Geez, I'm worried, you know, I think it's okay to say that.
And I think it's okay to say, geez, is there a way for karma heads to prevail?
Like, is every person in that country hell bent on the destruction of the supposed?
Other, or are there a whole bunch of people that have just been
ignored and sidelined and completely left out of the political protest,
uh, process this whole time?
Much like a lot of us in Australia just, we don't really
get heard from at elections.
We just get averagified.
And then we get a narrative saying, this is how everyone
feels, that's how that lot feels.
That's not how the world is.
That's kind of my point.
That's why people have to like, yeah, I agree with you that just
kind of hitting a headline and going, here's my take on the headlines.
Yeah, that's shit.
But here's how I'm feeling owing to things that are coming on my radar.
I think that's it.
Like, here's my state of, I think
Joe: that's kind of, yeah, that's not what Ali's like, see this, feel horrible.
Well, like you watch this, you feel horrible.
It's not like, Oh, I'm watching this and I'm worried about the world.
It's like, here's something horrific.
I'm just going to shove this in your face.
Even though you were looking for a cat video, ah, sucked in.
That's my experience of interacting with her on Instagram.
Okay.
I
Sam: love that.
Ali: Like, no, I
Sam: just,
Ali: I don't know.
It's a marvelous narrative.
I just felt like it was, yeah, it was horrific.
It really genuinely was horrific.
And I felt like.
Yeah, we need to be talking about this, or we need to be aware of
Joe: it.
While you're raising awareness, you need a hashtag for that, Ali.
White people do love to raise awareness.
Gotta raise that awareness.
Look, we should have a day for Ali, Ali Day, where we raise awareness of
whatever's on Ali's mind that day.
Oh
Sam: man, I've done some awareness raising myself.
We're all guilty
Joe: here.
You work There's a lot of days.
Ali: Why work in public service?
There's a lot of days.
Joe: Wear, wear purple.
Wear fun.
Don't even
Sam: get me started.
Oh, hey.
Teacher's Day was the other day.
I gave that the big wide berth.
favourite.
Joe: You can
Ali: get mental health.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Guys,
Joe: guys, guys.
We're fading.
We're still recording here.
I
Sam: boycott Teacher's Day.
I told, I told my students to take no interest in it and they all obeyed
Joe: me.
I don't think people are taking much more interest in this
episode, so we should shut it down.
No, no.
Sam: Yeah.
No, I agree.
I just want to add one more thing.
I think there is something hopeful to take out of it, which is that
there's a desire in Ali to...
To encourage thoughtful and useful communication and maybe creating a
note, a little note to self in amongst the observation about the peers.
And I'm going to have a bet each way, genuinely, I do agree with you.
There's a whole lot of, look at me, look how right I am.
Got to say though, Joe, you're not wrong to find it annoying, don't
underestimate the power of self centered.
Me, me, me, virtue signaling.
There's a reason it triggers the right so hard.
It actually does affect things.
And whether we think that justice should look different, oh, justice
should look like sweat and getting arrested and hard work and getting
dirty and it's boring paperwork.
No, there's vanity in there too.
I think, so I'm willing to be somewhat forgiving, but I'm sure the next time I
see someone just vainly In every sense.
encouraging me to think they're wise, then yeah, I'll probably remember
this and go, yeah, come on, man.
But I just can't hate on it completely.
And maybe mainly because I'm guilty.
I don't know.
That's probably why.
Ali: We're all hypocrites to a certain extent.
Alright, see ya.
See ya.