Speaker 2: Welcome to Honest Money.
I'm your host, Anja, and today's episode is brought to you by hard block.
Anja: Welcome back to Honest Money Show.
Joining me today is Fernando Nikolic , and Fernando is the
founder of Perception and I'll let him introduce what the company does.
Welcome to the show.
Fernando: Thanks so much, Anja.
Well, you're one of the few hosts that's managed to pronounce
my last name, uh, correctly.
I hear so many, uh, different, uh, versions of my last name when I
get introduced, uh, on, on shows.
So this is a refreshing, uh, perfect one take, uh, on, on the nickel last name.
Thank you.
Uh, yeah, no, um, yeah, I'm, I'm the founder of Perception.
It's, um, it's, um, it's a data intelligence company,
uh, focused on narratives, so.
You know, um, I gather everything that is of importance in the digital assets, uh,
industry, uh, with a focus on Bitcoin, of course, but it's, um, everything from
uh, tweets, um, uh, panels, conferences, earnings calls, uh, analysts, uh, um,
research, 650 sources plus, um, gathering everything that is, uh, happening
in real time about our industry.
And it detects trends.
It, it, um, analyze the sentiment, uh, across the entire spectrum.
And, uh, it plugs directly into, um, AI tools like Cloud Chat, GBT,
uh, Google Gemini, and so forth.
So, uh, this is, um, this is a company that I founded about five or six
months ago after we were spending four years plus as the VP of Marketing
and communications at Blockstream.
One of the biggest, uh, Bitcoin infrastructure companies in the space.
Uh, CEO is Adam back.
And, uh, yeah, it's, um, when I was working there, I saw this, hmm.
Kind of like a big shift in how we consume information, how we educate ourselves, how
we share information with other people.
And, uh, I needed to build a solution that was actually giving me, um, you
know, a, a proper, a proper mirror of, uh, what is going on at any given time.
Uh, so I build perception and, uh, you know, it started as a newsletter.
Uh, back in late 2024, early 2025 newsletter.
Grew two thousands of subscribers and people were starting, uh, they started
asking me, Hey, this data that you're writing about, are you gonna release it?
Started releasing it very, you know, very basic MVP and it got, it got
enough traction that I was like, too busy to do two things at once.
So I exited Blockstream about five, six months ago to focus on this full time.
Yeah, it's been, uh, it's been going great.
I think, uh, you know, people really.
I think people, the way people work, uh, especially knowledge
workers, the way we consume information is drastically changing.
So I'm kind of like building towards that so that people that work in our
space can actually know what's happening and take, uh, better decisions instead
of being, uh, caught in the quagmire that is, uh, the internet right now.
And I think stuff is gonna get.
Pretty intense in the future.
And, uh, I guess that's what we're gonna talk about today.
Anja: Yeah, for sure.
Um, but yeah, my, my background is also in marketing, so I really
have an appreciation for like any form of media monitoring.
And I know you've done quite a few posts on LinkedIn where I follow you
mo mostly, and yeah, you talk a lot about adoption and you talk a lot about
like the sentiment that's changing.
So what have you, what trends have you noticed since you
launched in terms of like.
What are the discussions or the perceptions about Bitcoin out there?
Fernando: I mean, the thing is, it's, uh, if I were to, you know, gauge that
using, uh, traditional tools like hanging out on X or hanging out on LinkedIn and
maybe following a few websites and, and newsletters, I would, I would just get
a little piece of e everything that's happening now that I'm actually, um.
Gathering so much data and, and having systems in place to, to
organize them and literally tell me everything that's going on.
I truly see how much is really going on at any given time.
It's not one or two things, it's just so much at once.
And it's, it's actually pretty cool to see that because, um, you know,
when you are, when you get your main information through X for example.
You might think the only thing that the world is doing is fighting
over BIP one 20, uh, one 10 and, uh, and, and, and, and that's it.
Um, there's just so much infrastructure being built.
There's so much exciting partnerships, uh, happening almost daily.
Uh.
It's not about price action.
I mean, price action definitely is a big category, but there's just so much
more than just price, uh, going on.
And that seems to be, you know, price and, uh, infighting between bitcoiners
seems to be like the, the overwhelming dominating narratives at all times.
Whether the price is booming or is crashing, and then whatever
controversy is going on, um, that it's just way more than that.
I can't really tell everything that's going on right now, but one thing
that is very interesting is that even though we are in a bear market and the
price has crashed, uh, pretty crazy in the past few weeks and months.
There's so much stuff being built.
There's so much institutional, uh, capital flowing in, uh, for infrastructure sakes.
So it's like if, uh, price is down right now, all the infrastructure
that is being built right now is gonna be a major catalyst for the next,
uh, bull run because we were seeing.
So much exciting stuff being built and so many people getting
together and partnering up.
So I think that's the, the, the one thing I would say.
Anja: Yeah, one of the most surprising things that I, I've come across in
Australia, like I never would've thought before getting into Bitcoin
that we would have so much talent.
You know, here in Australia, 'cause we're quite isolated from the rest of the world.
Um, geographically at least.
And like I, I'm just in complete awe, they're just, the innovation that's
happening here and some of the products that are going to come out, which I
won't say what they are, but like, they, they're going to be world changing that
can totally see lots of people all over the world using some of these solutions.
And it's just really, really amazing.
To, yeah.
Be alongside all these builders.
It's, it's, it's just amazing that you, the whole kind of Bitcoin community
tends to attract these really, like introverted, high functioning, very
high like, um, agency people that just, you know, when I do things.
But yeah, I agree with like, the infighting has been
particularly bad lately.
I've kind of like just stepped back a little bit just to recoup some energy and.
Join back the Twitter spaces and be one in debates
Fernando: what you're saying about, you know, like, people building right
now and having a, a specific energy.
I think it's very needed.
I think if you take a look at the first 10 years of Bitcoin, I think
there's been a lot of, a lot of, um.
I, I don't wanna say decisions because a lot of, a lot of things are pretty
disorganized in the Bitcoin community.
Obviously it's a decentralized thing, so the organization is also
disorganized and decentralized.
But I think the first 10 years of, of Bitcoin's history has been
extremely detrimental in terms of adoption for two specific reasons.
One is the attitude of the builders.
Like I, I I totally respect, uh, all the people who, who,
who built Bitcoin obviously.
And it laid a foundation, uh, and, and, and thought about not fucking
it up, but that kind of mentality.
Brought a bunch of people that were essentially, uh, you know,
artists building for other artists.
You needed to be a genius to use the, the tools.
And, uh, there were people that the last thing that they cared
about was UX or ui or creating, you know, a delightful product.
It was like cipher punk, write coats and, and that's it.
And, and that is not good for adoption.
And then the second thing.
Is also, um, a little bit of the, um, the, um, the approach that we
take to convincing people, like in terms of like spreading influence.
I would say number go up has been the best thing for adoption in terms of
convincing people to get in because you, like, like they say, you come
for the, for the NGU, but you stay for the revolution or whatever.
You kinda like, you fall into different rabbit holes after you,
you just wanna be part of the, the, the price going up, right?
It's like very, very primal, very like instinctive decision making.
But uh, the actual adoption, the actual influencing that people have
been trying that it was not about price has been about like, um, total
like tone deaf attitudes, right?
Like, um, you know, orange.
Orange pilling is, is tricky because when you, um, get convinced about Bitcoin,
there's a specific set of things, arguments that convinces you, right?
And number one, it takes time.
Like you won't, you won't be convinced about Bitcoin the
first time you hear it anyway.
You need to kind of like take your life experiences, the your, the way
you see life, uh, you know, your.
Uh, you know, your filter to see the world, you gotta put that into the
context of where Bitcoin fits, right?
So it's a highly like individual personal journey that you take.
And then, you know, if it clicks, it clicks.
Um, for me it clicked.
For example, being from Argentina, uh, you know, my, my family emigrated from
Argentina because of hyperinflation.
In my life, I tried to under, I tried to understand why this is a thing.
Why does Argentina keep having these like inflation problems?
That led me to, uh, read about Mees and the Austrian economics, and then when
I saw Bitcoin through the lens of like Austrian economics and the monetary
properties, that's where it clicked.
But if I got some dude from Germany who, uh, loved Bitcoin because of
the cryptography, and he was trying to sell me Bitcoin through the
cryptography lens, that convinced him.
I would be like, whatever, I don't fucking care.
It's not interesting.
And that is kind of like the, the, what the majority of the Bitcoin
community have done over years.
It's like what I believe in, you need to believe in.
And it's not how, that's not how influence, uh, works.
You need to meet people where they are.
You need to be empathetic.
You need to ask them questions.
You need to understand what are, what are the pain points?
What do they care about?
What are they afraid about?
You gotta tap into those emotions and we haven't done that.
As, as, as Bitcoiners, but I believe now, and to your point, I'm sorry for the rant.
Um, now there's a generation that actually thinks about UX, that thinks about UI
that has grown up using smartphones and maybe, you know, these like neo
banks, these FinTech apps, so they know what like good UI UX looks like and
they try to bring some of that over to Bitcoin so that Normies can actually.
Open up a Bitcoin wallet and know what the fuck is happening when
they open up the, the wallet.
And then also on the, on the communications, on the marketing side,
I think we're also getting better.
We, we are having like so many different voices that can kind of like plug into
different needs and different situations.
You have the circular economy in Africa and Latin America.
You have the, the suit coins in Wall Street.
You, you, you're starting to see like so many fragmented.
Um, voices that cater to very specific niches, and I think that's, that's
the key for growing this thing.
We, you know, it's not about mass adoption anymore in terms of like one
big movement, uh, taken over the world.
It's fragmented adoption where people talk to people of the, of their own,
like, and they, and they like translate the Bitcoin values into the, the
values that, that they believe in.
So I'm super bullish for the future for, for, for these two specific reasons.
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Anja: Yeah, me too.
And I love that you're talking about this because this was my whole talk
that I did at a previous Bush Bash in Parks last year, I wanna say.
Nice.
Yeah.
Last year.
And um, yeah, it was kind of broken down in three segments.
The first segment was talking about the UX ui, and it was kind of jokingly put
out all of these like Bitcoin products and services and wallets versus crypto
products and services and wallets.
Say, you can see that in crypto, wider crypto, they do
focus a lot more on UX and ui.
We focus obviously a lot more on security and those types of things,
which is very important, but there's no reason why we need to trade, you know,
things looking pretty and easy to use.
But yeah, surprisingly also completely unrelated seed signer, which is like
the most secure wallet that you can get, is really, um, really user friendly.
I was so surprised.
Better, some of the better than some of the wallets that, um, have marketing,
a lot of marketing budget behind them.
So there is hope for us.
Um,
Fernando: yes.
Anja: But yeah, the o the other, um, the other topic I had was in the middle
was about yeah, that those kind of like subcultures, people want to hear
about Bitcoin from people that you know are their reference point in life.
And I gave.
Some examples.
We have like a colorectal surgeon in Australia.
I haven't never met him, but he speaks to like the, his medical colleagues
about Bitcoin and it's like, you know, it's, I'm sure they would
rather hear it from him than me.
And yeah, there's heaps of, I, I know us for example, has some groups that
are like war veterans talking about Bitcoin with other war, war VE vets.
Whenever I put a W and a V together, I always mix it up.
And then, and then the final one was, um, you know, preaching to or
to the half converted, which is like that crypto crowd, like a lot of them
don't need convincing on Bitcoin.
They just need to step away from some of the bad marketing that they've been
exposed to in the wider crypto space.
Um, yeah, I, I live in the northern rivers in Australia and.
People are very like open-minded here, but we do have, you know, people coming
to our monthly meetups and they have a lot of coins in their portfolio.
They don't necessarily know what they hold, why they hold it.
So it is just kind of like educating them about, you know, the risks
and, and, and, you know, sure.
Invest your money in whatever you want, as long as you know that it's, it's.
What, what you're investing in.
Um, but yeah, I I I love that you, you care about these
same things and do you Yeah.
Do you wanna say something on
that?
Fernando: I think, uh, that is something that we've also done, I
think that, uh, Bitcoiners has also been very much like in other people's
business, kind of like shaming them for having a diversified portfolio.
I mean, I have 90% Bitcoin, 10% cash.
That's it.
I don't mess around with any of the other shit, but I, that's me.
Like, uh, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna shame another man for what
they decide to do with their money.
Um, I'm going to tell them like, Hey man, you know, Bitcoin is
the fastest horse in the race.
And, um, you know, it has a very different profile in nature compared
to the other, the other stuff.
And all I can do is just, uh, say that.
But I can't say like, oh, bro, you're wrong.
Or like, uh, you're fucked up.
You don't know.
You don't know what you're talking about, man, you're gonna fucking go to zero.
You're gonna get broke.
Um, people need to get their, through their own means, through life
experience, through time, through arguments with, you know, normal
people that have conversations.
And, uh, like you said, you know, if it takes.
A war, war veteran.
Uh, I also have the W and the Vs.
Uh, messed up.
If you take a war veteran to another war veteran to actually
make the message go through, then yeah, then what's the problem?
I mean, this, if a total stranger came to me and said, X, Y, and Z,
and, and then, uh, my wife comes and tells me the exact same thing.
I'm gonna listen to her than a, than a stranger.
It's obvious.
Um, I think a lot of, a lot of Bitcoiners that are a little bit
like not in touch with people or society, I don't know what it is,
maybe they're like chronically online.
They just don't know how to talk to people, but they still talk to people
not knowing how to talk to people.
And I think that is so detrimental and I think that has set us back.
Uh, honestly, it has set us back because you would think that.
You would think, like I, I'm from Argentina, for example.
You would think that people from Argentina going through hyperinflation
would understand Bitcoin in a, in, in a, in a heartbeat.
Like it's a, it's a no brainer for them.
Right?
Guess what?
Ethereum is the biggest community in Argentina when it comes to
this whole crypto thing, and.
If they wanna like, you know, go with the thesis of, uh, you know, uh,
store value, preserving purchasing power and stuff like that, they go
to USD instead of Bitcoin, right?
So stable coins is now the preferred thing, uh, and.
And not Bitcoin.
And it's obvious because volatility is real.
Yeah.
Like you have to stomach that.
You need to unlearn, you gotta wire your head differently to understand
why volatility is good essentially.
Now, and I don't wanna sound too harsh, but the people who understand the uh
the good stuff about volatility are going to be people in Wall Street in
the institutional realm, 'cause they deal with a lot of volatile assets.
There is an index for vol volatility, the vix, so they understand that language.
Some like, uh, dude who sells uh, juices in a corner of the street in Argentina
it's not gonna understand that deeply.
They're gonna see the chart and say.
This crashed 40%.
What, what, what is this?
Uh, store of value bullshit.
Um, so there's going to be people that are already rich that are already privileged,
who are already more financial literate, who are going to understand Bitcoin first.
I mean, there is a reason why Bitcoin is adopted the most in North
America and Europe historically.
You take a look at, take a look at all the lightning notes that are on the
map, and it's like Europe and North America back to back, and then some like
lose, uh, you know, nodes elsewhere.
And that is just because education is low.
Argentina education is low.
People don't understand concepts that are like translated as digital gold or
Austrian economics and stuff like that.
All they know is shit gets more expensive and they don't understand why.
So you need to really meet them at their level, which I'm, I'm, I'm
sorry to say, it's a very uneducated illiterate, like financially illiterate
level, and you gotta break it down like they were fucking five years old.
But here we come with like, Hey, read the white paper,
bro, and then ask me anything.
Like, they're not gonna understand anything of the white paper if you just
give it to them without any context.
So you need to meet people where they are.
Luckily, the media fragmentation that we're experiencing right now where
you may be know about an author that has sold millions of books, and then
you come to me and ask me about that author, and I have never heard about him.
That's the media fragmentation that is happening now in real time and is
only gonna get more and more intense because you know, um, algorithms are
putting you in a, in a very small box, uh, you know, ba and also just gonna
give you more of what you already have signal that you kind of like.
So it's not, there's no more discovery happening really apart from like
violence and gore and, and political violence and shit like that, that gets
promoted almost daily in terms of like actually discovering and stuff like that.
No, we're gonna go back to communities.
In, in real life events and you gotta like meet them where they are.
That's it.
Um, and there's probably going to be, um, pockets of the internet where
you can see the same thing happening.
Like at that low level in Buenos Aires, also happening in South Africa.
So you will, that, that guy who will meet this other guy in real life will
be able to pull up his phone and say, this is happening in South Africa too.
This is happening in the Philippines too.
As a, as a way to like, just to have a deeper understanding of
like what Bitcoin can mean for this particular person named Buenos Aires.
Am I ranting too much?
I hope I makes sense.
Anja: I, I, I, I love all of these insights.
I'm still, my brain is still stuck on, I can't believe, I can understand
why people in Argentina would prefer stable coins over Bitcoin, but I can't
understand why they would, the Ethereum community is bigger than the Bitcoin.
Like what?
Why?
Fernando: I can tell you why.
So the reason is that when you live in Argentina and
when you live in Argentina and you're late teenager in your early
twenties, uh, you understand like, fuck, I got, I got two choices.
Either I leave, uh, my country and I try to get a job in Spain or
Europe or, or the US or whatever, uh, for, for my own future, right?
Or I stay in Argentina and try to try to get money.
Staying in Argentina, trying to get money, the, the, the, the
legal way it's extremely hard.
You have, you know, a, a currency that hates you, a government that hates you.
Uh, you have everything in the world against you, essentially.
And then they think, well, I just go to a country that is more civilized,
that has more infrastructure, that has more jobs, and I can just do that.
But we now live in the age of the internet where you can literally get a laptop.
You can connect to the internet and you can get a job as a graphic designer or
marketer or social media, whatever, right?
Knowledge work online, and you can get clients right that, um, that, uh,
is from anywhere that can pay you.
So Ethereum is like this whole, you know, the, what the community in
Argentina are like, selling the, the Ethereum Foundation in Argentina
is kinda like selling to people.
It's like, Hey, with Ethereum we can plug into the internet of money.
You can build, you can get paid, you can build apps.
This is a whole nother ecosystem that is purely online where you can just
get paid directly and there's no bank accounts, there's no, uh, you know, your
accounts can be frozen, blah, blah, blah.
And they're like, okay, let me look into this.
And then they see like there's a whole huge developer community.
And they're like, okay, yeah, I can learn how to code, I
can learn to build some stuff.
This is even before AI came into place and now everybody can, can build it, right?
And they're like, okay, shit.
I, I go to the ethereum.org website and there's like loads of documentation.
Everything is like super easy.
I can download an SDK and start building right away.
Meanwhile, lemme go to bitcoin.org.
What's over here?
There's fucking nothing.
I can't build nothing here.
Right.
So that's, that's in a nutshell, that's, that's kind of like why.
Ethereum is so much bigger in Argentina because it's,
it's a promise of prosperity.
Uh, is a promise of I can plug into the rest of the world through internet money.
I can build something and I can stay in Argentina.
I don't have to leave my family, uh, to, uh, to get opportunities
like my mom did back in the day when there wasn't any internet.
Right.
So that, that's, that's why, and that's again, another, this is just one
example, probably a thousand of examples of this elsewhere in the world where.
Having this like friendly, open-minded developer community that
is organized, that is capitalized.
Let's be honest, because this is extremely organized institutions.
The Ethereum Foundation, consensus, all of these highly capitalized uh uh, companies,
they coordinate and they organize, and this is what Bitcoin haven't done.
Obviously we can't because we are decentralized.
It's, it's kind of like a, a very organic movement, but that is the reason.
So just want to explain that to you.
Anja: Yeah, it, it, it kind of makes sense because when I compare to
Australia, we obviously have a lot of different meetups and events here,
and every capital city that I've been to has a Bitcoin and a crypto meetup.
And the crypto meetup group is usually thousands or of participants and the
Bitcoin might have been the tens or the hundreds depending on how big the city is.
And yeah, it's, it's interesting, like obviously marketing is powerful,
more powerful than our word of mouth.
Um, but yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, it's interesting and also kind of remembering what you were saying
about like, the different, um, experiences people have with, with
Bitcoin throughout their journey.
One analogy I like to use with, with people when I'm explaining
this, using my marketing background.
Is, um, to buy any kind of product or service, usually, uh, an individual will
have to like, have a touch point with a, let's say, 16 times throughout their,
you know, life, uh, or a season and.
Those kind of touch, different touch points, whether online or in
person or face-to-face, um, will lead to that deci purchase decision.
And obviously this is like averaged out.
So it's kind of the same with Bitcoin.
If, you know, my auntie, who her early in account would've been
like, okay, this is interesting.
But she reads in the media and a trusted person disparages it, and then she hears
from one of her colleagues got scammed and then, uh, uh, she has to help a
friend try withdraw Bitcoin from a very dodgy exchange and not able to do so.
It's no surprise that she's, you know, less likely to be
open-minded or, you know, the 15th to 16th time she hears about it.
Whereas, yeah, for people who've had more positive experiences
or might have, you know, like an entry point through cryptography
or Austrian economics or something.
Of course they're gonna be more open-minded and and keen
to hear about it 'cause Yeah.
Fernando: That's exactly right.
And I think, uh, you know, every single touch point is super valuable.
It really has to be a perfect string of touch points for it to
fully, uh, be, be welcome, because there's so much noise, there's so
many things, so much information.
Uh, there's like so much information, pollution that in order for you to
like actually keep your interest over these touch points extremely hard.
Uh, and you need like a proper coordinated attack almost, uh, as a, as an entity if
you wanna get someone's business right?
And this is what Bitcoin is not.
So the only thing that, you know, we.
We can hope for is that companies in the Bitcoin industry does that right.
And there's some interesting incentives that comes into play where, um, you know,
companies with, with a brand that can think about brand design communications
and kinda like organize themselves in a very selfish matter of just getting
business and growing their company, that through those companies we can achieve.
You know, multiple, uh, multiple adoption, uh, curves because, uh,
individual Bitcoiners, I'm sorry man, we, we have, we have fucked up.
You know, like so many, I see so many people on, on X saying, I have
given up on orange peeling, you know, it's, I, I don't wanna do it anymore.
If people come to me and ask, okay, I will ask.
I, I will, I will tell them something, but I'm done.
Orange peeling.
I see.
Have you seen those tweets?
I've seen plenty.
Anja: Uh, of, I I haven't, but I You haven't?
Yeah.
I've had a similar kind of experience myself.
Not that I'm done orange peeling, but when I first got in, I, I definitely
was over zealous and I was like, there's the best thing you have
to hear about and learn about it.
Like, and then I'm not pushing information.
Fernando: Yeah.
Because it's like.
The process of rocking quote unquote Bitcoin involves like
unlearning a lot of stuff, right?
So there's like, you think about the world in a certain way and then
you realize, holy shit, I've been thinking about this whole thing wrong.
And if somebody else tells you, Hey, you are wrong about the world,
you're gonna be like, fuck off.
Like shut up.
Coming to that conclusion yourself and telling yourself that, like, whoa,
these things that I've been taught, uh, during, you know, my, my, my school, my
education, what my parents have told me, what society has told me are not true.
Whoa, that's like a crazy 180.
And obviously the emotional reaction is, holy shit, I gotta
tell everybody about this.
But then it's like, okay.
Again, to my point in the beginning of the call, it's like.
The thing that convinced you to get there is not gonna be the
same thing that convinced the other, uh, to get there as well.
So you, we, we get, like I said, overzealous and we were like, we
gotta shout it at the rooftop, at the top of the rooftop.
But hey, what is the message?
What's the, what are we communicating?
We're just communicating what we believe in.
Not, not that the, the rest of the world is not gonna believe
in the exact same thing.
And that's why I say Bitcoin is not for everyone because, uh,
there's just some people that are just not gonna get it as well.
Um, and that's okay.
Um, we wanna, we have this energy when we grow up Bitcoin, like, okay,
it's gonna take over the world.
It's gonna be the new global reserve asset, which might be true, but
it's not gonna happen that fast.
That's one, uh, because there's a lot of people today that lives in the world
today that are never going to get it.
This could be a generational issue, but it could be a, it
could be a background issue.
It's an incentive issue.
A lot of people, they wanna keep the fiat world, you know, going on, uh, because
it's in the best interest, uh, to do that.
Uh, media outlets.
They cannot pivot and all of a sudden say, we were wrong about Bitcoin.
This is, uh, now we're gonna cover it.
Uh, in, in a balanced way.
No, because they have incentives in place where they have built up an
audience trashing Bitcoin, and if they pivot, they're gonna lose that audience.
I mean, so there's, it is, it's not gonna happen.
Global mass adoption all in one stroke, it's gonna be,
we're gonna chip away at it.
And we're all on this together to make it grow further.
And we are going to take a bigger and bigger market share over time.
Yes.
Um, because I do believe in, in this new generation of Bitcoins, and I
see a lot of cool companies that are.
Uh, thinking about UX and UI and brand and looking cool and try to tap into
the mainstream culture and kinda like bridge, bridge the gap between mainstream
normie culture and Bitcoin culture.
Stuff like, you know, cash app square strike.
Um, I would say even Coinbase, a lot of people are gonna hate me for this,
but like Coinbase are creating some ads that are like chef's Kiss, uh, and uh.
Or shit, coin Casino, fuck it.
Um, but they have really nailed it by like nice production value, awesome
communication, great messaging, and that's gonna drive adoption forward, but it's
going to be one bit at a time, you know?
Um, that's, I think we need to accept that as a, as Bitcoins that it's not gonna,
it is gonna change the world, but slowly.
Anja: Not in exactly the way we expect or in the timeline that we might hope for.
Yeah, I, I think about this all the time, um, in terms of, of like what the
adoption is gonna look like from here onwards, because there's just like, I
try to like imagine scenarios where like, what if, you know, someone's so busy
fighting all these, you know, geopolitical wars and, and, and things, and all of a
sudden this things just keep ticking and sneaking up on all of us and, and, yeah.
I don't know.
It ke keeps me up at night.
Fernando: Um, I think, um, that, um, we see, we say that, you know, with
inflation and fiat currency, that things are just gonna get worse, right?
Until fiat kind of like dies out.
And I feel like a res, a very direct result of the inflationary properties
that fiat money has is, you know, people, the poorest people, they need
to work extra hard just to get by.
And, you know, they, they have kids to feed, they have families and whatever.
Just taking care of yourself is gonna be harder and harder
just by yourself being alone.
And that might translate into people getting two, three part-time jobs.
Um, being more busy, uh, like really struggling, right?
Like an Uber driver might drive 16 hours a day just to put food on the table.
So these people.
That truly needs Bitcoin, that needs to hear about it, that needs to be educated
about it, are increasingly gonna have less, less time to actually sit down and,
uh, read a book or follow podcasts and, and sit down and watch YouTube videos.
So what's going to happen with that?
Right.
I think, the lens is getting smaller and smaller and more narrow and more
narrow, and the only hope that I have is that we fragment so much that.
You know, an Uber driver will understand Bitcoin just because
of one reason and one reason only.
And that reason is just gonna stay true and not gonna change because
this person doesn't have time to think about Bitcoin in any other way.
So I think adoption in the future is going to look like a bunch of more people.
Using Bitcoin, but for wildly different reasons.
To your point, you were, you were mentioning that, right?
Like all this like infighting and reactions from older Bitcoiners
who are like, I don't agree with how Bitcoin is being used.
And um, it's going to increasingly be more of those people.
Uh, if, if these people they clinging to their like ideology or like this,
like deep conviction that convinced them in the first place about what
Bitcoin is and what it should be.
If they continue with that like one so reason, they're
gonna have a very tough time.
They're gonna like rage quit Bitcoin in the future, I feel like, because
we already see it now, right?
Like with people having a problem, um, with all well, wall Street
taking over, or Sailor uh, buying so much more Bitcoin, right?
And these are people that are more like Cipher punk, closer to
the Cipher punk ethos perhaps.
Or they might be like medium of exchange maxes that are like, no, no, no, we
need, we need the Bitcoin to flow.
We need people to spend Bitcoin.
We need to build circular economy.
So just buying Bitcoin and like storing it is not good.
Uh, 'cause then the people who needs Bitcoin in the circular economies
are going to have to buy Bitcoin at a higher price, stuff like that.
Right?
So we already started to see these frictions.
Not about like BIP one 20, uh, one 10 or whatever, but it's literally about
this is the right way to use Bitcoin, the wrong way to use Bitcoin, and this
splintering is first of all, it's kinda like the end of the Bitcoin monoculture.
There is no Bitcoin community anymore.
There is not a definition of like what a Bitcoin or is anymore.
There's just a bunch of people who love Bitcoin for widely different reasons,
and it's gonna be used in very different ways, in ways you don't agree with.
And I think we need to accept that.
I can't believe there are Bitcoiners who have been years
into this who have a problem with.
Oh, no, no, no.
You're using it wrong.
Like, what the hell are you talking about?
Like, and these are the same people who are like, oh, Bitcoin
is gonna take over the world.
Where if Bitcoin's gonna take over the world, the world is different, man.
There's, there's a variety in humans in, uh, situations and societies.
So that's, the usage of money is gonna be a reflection of the
variety that we have in society.
So if you have a problem with people from different places
using Bitcoin differently.
What kind of world do you want?
It's like,
Anja: he's just so funny.
It's so funny.
It's like I'm libertarian, but I will tell you how to use your money.
Fernando: Yeah.
Anja: That kind of guess makes no
Fernando: sense.
Anja: But yeah, like sometimes I also wonder, like I'm obviously, you and I
are so close to Bitcoin, so every time there's like new news out, you know,
say, well, more Bitcoin or a new large vendor in America is accepting Bitcoin
or somehow integrating it into their business, and we're like so excited.
But like, does the average consumer of that business even know that?
Like, do you know, what's that like burger place that recently started accepting,
we're like, well, you know, like a whole chain across the US is now you can, you
know, pay for your burger in Bitcoin, but like, do average shoppers know that?
Do they.
I dunno.
Fernando: No,
Anja: it's probably not like, and
Fernando: that, that's, that's the thing.
I think we, we, know, a lot of, a lot of companies from outside of Bitcoin, they
obviously see, uh, the Bitcoin community, but I think they see it as, I don't know,
the, the BMX, uh, dirt bike community.
It's just a community that if we pander to them that they're gonna react and
they're gonna love us for it, but it's not gonna be like, oh my God, it, you know.
People outside this community are gonna fucking love it.
No, no, no.
This is a pure marketing play where you identify a niche, uh, community that
you see has enough traction so that you make a marketing decision internally
and say, we're gonna do something for this community specifically.
To pander to them.
And that's what stake, uh, steak and Shake are, are doing.
That's what a lot of, a lot of, um, nation states have been doing.
Like El Salvador.
It's, it's, it's a pandering to a community that it, we
are a community of enough.
Like we have a critical mass that any anybody from the outside, they
wanna like, Hey, shall we do a Bitcoin, uh, marketing campaign?
Okay, yeah, we should because there's enough people.
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Fernando: So the same way that, uh, businesses are.
Pandering to Bitcoin communities is also something that we're seeing happening in
politics with, uh, you know, congress, uh, women or congress men, um, you know,
fighting for Bitcoin, uh, or nation states, uh, you know, adopting Bitcoin.
It is for.
Bitcoiners first, and then some other people might be on the outside looking
in and be like, oh, this is interesting.
Let me see what it is.
And maybe they will become bitcoiners too.
But I think the, the, the, the, the main goal from these companies and
from these politicians is to get the Bitcoin or base on their side.
Anja: The final question I had for you was just asking you, you know, with, you know,
the increasingly fragmented world and we have all these builders in the bitcoin
space who creating these companies and trying to obviously grow adoption and,
and reach more people, how do you think.
You know, they, they're going to essentially reach the masses in
an increasingly fragmented world
Fernando: by, uh, being hyper-focused and, uh, niching down.
I think it's like, uh, a big, um, um.
It's an adage where in marketing, where it's like you niche down and
you get like a, a, a critical mass of, of, uh, users and then you can
scale up from, from that point.
Um, and I think that's kind of like it, like companies that are trying to
do everything at once are gonna lose.
Um, and they're gonna get their ass kicked by way leaner, smaller companies,
one or two founders or whatever.
Especially now with AI and coding being so, uh, so easy to create,
like really nice front end.
Uh, not, not at a protocol level obviously, but like in terms of
creating apps and, uh, SDKs and creating libraries and stuff like
that, um, it's, it's way easier now.
Uh, and you see now, you know, a lot of companies that are building on arc, for
example, are like super small, super small teams that are just in my, in my opinion,
they're, they're doing a good job.
They haven't gotten the traction yet, but I think the setup is, is pretty good.
So more companies niching down on very specific things and then grabbing
their market share and then being profitable quick so they can see what,
what, what they're going to build next.
I think that's, uh, going to be, uh, super important.
And then on the, on the flip side.
You know, big ideas, um, founders with, with big ideas that want
to big, that want to be big.
They, they, they need to be, uh, convincing enough, uh, to get, uh,
real capital and be funded to really, you know, try to make some big swings,
um, to really move, move masses.
There's a combination of, of these things.
Even if you're well funded or you're bootstrapped, the
philosophy is still the same.
People are now and in the future going to consume information and
education online in very, very small pockets of the internet.
So you just gotta try to dominate those small pockets.
Uh, and then the, the, the, the total, the sum.
Of everyone doing their part is what's going to drive adoption further, but it's
going to be a very fragmented adoption.
But if you take a step back and you see everything that's happening at once,
you'll see that it is one movement, but it's just highly disorganized.
Where everybody's just focusing on their own things.
And then Bitcoin as a result, is going to be adopted in many different
ways by many different people.
And there's not gonna be one narrative that will be the true narrative anymore.
It's gonna be many narratives, many truths, and you might, uh, disagree with
it or not, but doesn't really matter.
That's kind of like how the future's going to look like.
So what can you do?
Mm-hmm.
You either, you either change your mind or you don't.
Anja: Yeah, and I'm thinking about as you're speaking, if there's any kind
of company out there that I can think of the top of my head that is like
kind of doing like kind of an up and coming company that's doing a really
good job of it in the Bitcoin space and nothing immediately is coming to mind.
Do you have one, like someone that you're like, oh, they're actually
doing really good marketing.
Um, no one's coming to me.
Fernando: Well, I would say.
No, I, in, in, in terms of like the Bitcoin only, um,
companies, uh, not really,
Anja: but
Fernando: I truly love
Anja: because seeing the same people sharing the same story, kind of
like I'm not really seeing much.
Yeah, yeah.
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Fernando: Now essentially building for the user that is going to
download five different wallets on their phone and maybe use one of them
more, and then the four, it will just gonna stay there on the phone, not
really doing anything, just idle.
But I think the ones that are really trying to tap into the mainstream
culture that are trying to make, um, make, uh, Bitcoin cool is, is,
uh, cash app a square block, that that company is fucking killing it.
And they have also that combination of.
Design UX brand mentality, but they're also philosophically sound.
They are Bitcoin first, even though Jack is like reluctantly doing
stuff on for stable coins lately.
But they have the philosophy and the the design and to be able to master
these two things historically in Bitcoin has been almost an impossibility.
And to see that they have, like, they make Bitcoin only cool and relevant.
Jack wearing a Satoshi Komodo t-shirt at the Super Bowl, that type of shit.
That's what we need more of.
But fortunately, one company doing that, we need more.
So hopefully,
Anja: yeah,
Fernando: hopefully there's more, uh, companies that are small now that can
grow bigger, be well, more funded, but we need to step away from, um, uh,
the companies who wanna do everything.
Um, we've gotta tap into the culture.
You know, I come from the music, uh, business and, uh, I was at Universal Music
when Torrenting, um, became a thing and kinda like disrupted the entire industry.
The Pirate Bay, the torrents.
They, they, they were driving the culture forward.
They, they made, uh, this shit cool.
And when a technology is p paired up with culture, that's the that's
the, the, the, the, the, the t and t, that's the, that's the dy dynamite.
And we have a culture and we have the tech, like who, who are the designers,
who are the brand people that are able to take those two things because
I think Cipher punk can be cool.
It has that like, cool, dark, uh, you know, um, style that, that
can be turned into something cool.
And, uh, yeah, only, only Cash App and Square and Block have
been able to crack that code.
We need more people cracking the code.
Anja: Yeah, absolutely.
And I can certainly relate to what Jack is going through because this
is so embarrassing, but even I struggle with like, how do I grow my
podcast versus how do I stay pure?
So I like actually refrain from even using the hashtag crypto in, in my,
like YouTube and, and social media.
I'm just like, what am I doing?
Like if it's about reaching people and that's what I care about adoption,
then I just need to get over myself and not, you know, use hashtag crypto.
I
Fernando: came to that conclusion myself.
Totally.
I came to that conclusion myself of building my business.
Uh, I, I was Bitcoin only at the get go.
After two months, I realized I gotta, I gotta, you know, I gotta
bring in the other shit as well.
I, I, I don't have, I don't track, um, Ethereum, the coin, but if JP Morgan is
launching like a credit, uh, product on Ethereum, that is part of perception.
So I'm bringing in the institutionalized digital assets, uh, part of it because
it's also important to see where Bitcoin is positioned compared to, to the other.
You don't wanna.
You don't want to evaluate Bitcoin's, uh, temperature in isolation.
You want to see how Bitcoin is positioned a a amongst other competitors and
other things that is happening too.
And, and I think that's important too.
You need to not look at Bitcoin as an island.
You need to look at Bitcoin as a peninsula where a lot of stuff is happening and
uh, it's still outside like a peninsula, but it's, um, there's more to it.
You know, it's not a stupid little island.
There's a lot of stuff happening and we need to see, we need to
compare Bitcoin against competitors.
It's a competitive analysis.
It's like marketing one-on-one, business, one-on-one, so, yeah.
Anja: Yeah.
I also love, I will include a link in the show notes of your LinkedIn profile
as well, so people can add you on there as well, because the, the LinkedIn
buyer you have is so interesting.
I absolutely love the reading it, but yeah, I, um, I think I wanna escape
as many technical issues as possible.
So if you have any final words so that, you know, for wrapping up, uh, for with
my audience, yeah, I'm happy to hear it.
Fernando: No, I mean, uh, stay sane out there, man.
It's, uh, going to be very hard, uh, in the future to, uh, get
your, uh, information online.
So choose your sources wisely.
Um, stick to what you know, and you have to be your own, uh,
content curator, uh, these days.
So, um, Bitcoin is gonna be many different things in the future.
Um.
Make sure that you stick to what you like so that Bitcoin
stays fun and exciting for you.
Uh, 'cause the future is going to look very different than what it is right now.
It's gonna see a lot of different people with a lot of different views, polarizing
views, uh, coming into Bitcoin, and uh, you need to be okay with that.
Uh, that's the healthy, that's the healthy attitude at least.
So, uh, yeah, stay sane.
Uh, online is going, going to get difficult.
So make sure that you have your tools and your weaponry and everything
that you need to, uh, to be able to follow this space without going crazy.
Anja: It already is getting difficult because I'm just like, I really
wanna book myself is for some like diving, just go under water for a bit.
Chill out, you know, like get off the internet.
Alright, well thank you you
Fernando: so
Anja: much.
Fernando: Sometimes no, sometimes that's the only remedy.
So yeah.
Uh, we, we might see like a revival of, uh, offline meet space stuff
that's can be exciting anyway.
Anja: Yeah, I hope so.
I do love the, the offline face-to-face meet, I say the best.
All right, for sure.
Thanks so much for your time.
Fernando: Thank you so much for having me on, uh, having me on.
It was a pleasure meeting you and, uh, having this convo.
Hopefully we'll do around too soon.
Anja: Yeah, absolutely.
With better tech this time.
Thank you.
Fernando: Bye.
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