1 00:00:00,300 --> 00:00:01,620 Speaker 2: Welcome to Honest Money. 2 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,910 I'm your host, Anja, and today's episode is brought to you by hard block. 3 00:00:11,254 --> 00:00:13,894 Anja: Welcome back to Honest Money Show. 4 00:00:13,894 --> 00:00:17,434 Joining me today is Fernando Nikolic , and Fernando is the 5 00:00:17,434 --> 00:00:22,234 founder of Perception and I'll let him introduce what the company does. 6 00:00:22,234 --> 00:00:22,929 Welcome to the show. 7 00:00:24,484 --> 00:00:25,264 Fernando: Thanks so much, Anja. 8 00:00:25,264 --> 00:00:27,934 Well, you're one of the few hosts that's managed to pronounce 9 00:00:27,934 --> 00:00:29,494 my last name, uh, correctly. 10 00:00:29,554 --> 00:00:32,884 I hear so many, uh, different, uh, versions of my last name when I 11 00:00:32,884 --> 00:00:35,404 get introduced, uh, on, on shows. 12 00:00:36,094 --> 00:00:40,834 So this is a refreshing, uh, perfect one take, uh, on, on the nickel last name. 13 00:00:40,834 --> 00:00:41,224 Thank you. 14 00:00:41,494 --> 00:00:44,374 Uh, yeah, no, um, yeah, I'm, I'm the founder of Perception. 15 00:00:44,374 --> 00:00:48,184 It's, um, it's, um, it's a data intelligence company, 16 00:00:48,244 --> 00:00:50,284 uh, focused on narratives, so. 17 00:00:51,114 --> 00:00:55,764 You know, um, I gather everything that is of importance in the digital assets, uh, 18 00:00:55,764 --> 00:01:00,219 industry, uh, with a focus on Bitcoin, of course, but it's, um, everything from 19 00:01:01,324 --> 00:01:07,564 uh, tweets, um, uh, panels, conferences, earnings calls, uh, analysts, uh, um, 20 00:01:07,594 --> 00:01:14,104 research, 650 sources plus, um, gathering everything that is, uh, happening 21 00:01:14,104 --> 00:01:15,844 in real time about our industry. 22 00:01:16,324 --> 00:01:17,914 And it detects trends. 23 00:01:17,944 --> 00:01:22,114 It, it, um, analyze the sentiment, uh, across the entire spectrum. 24 00:01:22,654 --> 00:01:27,844 And, uh, it plugs directly into, um, AI tools like Cloud Chat, GBT, 25 00:01:27,934 --> 00:01:29,314 uh, Google Gemini, and so forth. 26 00:01:29,974 --> 00:01:33,664 So, uh, this is, um, this is a company that I founded about five or six 27 00:01:33,664 --> 00:01:38,104 months ago after we were spending four years plus as the VP of Marketing 28 00:01:38,104 --> 00:01:39,784 and communications at Blockstream. 29 00:01:40,624 --> 00:01:44,614 One of the biggest, uh, Bitcoin infrastructure companies in the space. 30 00:01:44,704 --> 00:01:46,384 Uh, CEO is Adam back. 31 00:01:47,179 --> 00:01:53,779 And, uh, yeah, it's, um, when I was working there, I saw this, hmm. 32 00:01:54,169 --> 00:01:59,629 Kind of like a big shift in how we consume information, how we educate ourselves, how 33 00:01:59,629 --> 00:02:01,369 we share information with other people. 34 00:02:01,879 --> 00:02:06,409 And, uh, I needed to build a solution that was actually giving me, um, you 35 00:02:06,409 --> 00:02:12,709 know, a, a proper, a proper mirror of, uh, what is going on at any given time. 36 00:02:13,159 --> 00:02:16,699 Uh, so I build perception and, uh, you know, it started as a newsletter. 37 00:02:16,789 --> 00:02:20,899 Uh, back in late 2024, early 2025 newsletter. 38 00:02:20,899 --> 00:02:24,589 Grew two thousands of subscribers and people were starting, uh, they started 39 00:02:24,589 --> 00:02:28,729 asking me, Hey, this data that you're writing about, are you gonna release it? 40 00:02:29,629 --> 00:02:35,749 Started releasing it very, you know, very basic MVP and it got, it got 41 00:02:35,749 --> 00:02:38,929 enough traction that I was like, too busy to do two things at once. 42 00:02:38,929 --> 00:02:42,319 So I exited Blockstream about five, six months ago to focus on this full time. 43 00:02:43,159 --> 00:02:44,989 Yeah, it's been, uh, it's been going great. 44 00:02:45,049 --> 00:02:47,539 I think, uh, you know, people really. 45 00:02:48,864 --> 00:02:51,379 I think people, the way people work, uh, especially knowledge 46 00:02:51,379 --> 00:02:54,709 workers, the way we consume information is drastically changing. 47 00:02:54,709 --> 00:02:58,909 So I'm kind of like building towards that so that people that work in our 48 00:02:58,909 --> 00:03:04,579 space can actually know what's happening and take, uh, better decisions instead 49 00:03:04,579 --> 00:03:08,599 of being, uh, caught in the quagmire that is, uh, the internet right now. 50 00:03:08,599 --> 00:03:10,744 And I think stuff is gonna get. 51 00:03:11,914 --> 00:03:13,084 Pretty intense in the future. 52 00:03:13,084 --> 00:03:14,824 And, uh, I guess that's what we're gonna talk about today. 53 00:03:15,274 --> 00:03:16,024 Anja: Yeah, for sure. 54 00:03:16,384 --> 00:03:20,224 Um, but yeah, my, my background is also in marketing, so I really 55 00:03:20,224 --> 00:03:23,344 have an appreciation for like any form of media monitoring. 56 00:03:23,344 --> 00:03:27,034 And I know you've done quite a few posts on LinkedIn where I follow you 57 00:03:27,124 --> 00:03:31,714 mo mostly, and yeah, you talk a lot about adoption and you talk a lot about 58 00:03:31,714 --> 00:03:33,604 like the sentiment that's changing. 59 00:03:33,604 --> 00:03:36,244 So what have you, what trends have you noticed since you 60 00:03:36,244 --> 00:03:37,684 launched in terms of like. 61 00:03:37,934 --> 00:03:41,534 What are the discussions or the perceptions about Bitcoin out there? 62 00:03:41,654 --> 00:03:45,944 Fernando: I mean, the thing is, it's, uh, if I were to, you know, gauge that 63 00:03:46,694 --> 00:03:52,154 using, uh, traditional tools like hanging out on X or hanging out on LinkedIn and 64 00:03:52,154 --> 00:03:56,564 maybe following a few websites and, and newsletters, I would, I would just get 65 00:03:56,564 --> 00:04:01,274 a little piece of e everything that's happening now that I'm actually, um. 66 00:04:02,019 --> 00:04:05,529 Gathering so much data and, and having systems in place to, to 67 00:04:05,529 --> 00:04:08,319 organize them and literally tell me everything that's going on. 68 00:04:08,799 --> 00:04:12,969 I truly see how much is really going on at any given time. 69 00:04:12,969 --> 00:04:16,749 It's not one or two things, it's just so much at once. 70 00:04:17,469 --> 00:04:21,849 And it's, it's actually pretty cool to see that because, um, you know, 71 00:04:21,849 --> 00:04:26,109 when you are, when you get your main information through X for example. 72 00:04:27,064 --> 00:04:29,524 You might think the only thing that the world is doing is fighting 73 00:04:29,524 --> 00:04:33,574 over BIP one 20, uh, one 10 and, uh, and, and, and, and that's it. 74 00:04:34,954 --> 00:04:38,314 Um, there's just so much infrastructure being built. 75 00:04:38,344 --> 00:04:42,364 There's so much exciting partnerships, uh, happening almost daily. 76 00:04:42,364 --> 00:04:42,394 Uh. 77 00:04:43,924 --> 00:04:45,514 It's not about price action. 78 00:04:45,514 --> 00:04:48,784 I mean, price action definitely is a big category, but there's just so much 79 00:04:48,784 --> 00:04:51,094 more than just price, uh, going on. 80 00:04:51,094 --> 00:04:56,284 And that seems to be, you know, price and, uh, infighting between bitcoiners 81 00:04:56,284 --> 00:05:00,604 seems to be like the, the overwhelming dominating narratives at all times. 82 00:05:00,934 --> 00:05:04,414 Whether the price is booming or is crashing, and then whatever 83 00:05:04,414 --> 00:05:08,764 controversy is going on, um, that it's just way more than that. 84 00:05:09,994 --> 00:05:13,054 I can't really tell everything that's going on right now, but one thing 85 00:05:13,054 --> 00:05:16,504 that is very interesting is that even though we are in a bear market and the 86 00:05:16,504 --> 00:05:20,044 price has crashed, uh, pretty crazy in the past few weeks and months. 87 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:22,249 There's so much stuff being built. 88 00:05:22,249 --> 00:05:27,979 There's so much institutional, uh, capital flowing in, uh, for infrastructure sakes. 89 00:05:28,339 --> 00:05:32,419 So it's like if, uh, price is down right now, all the infrastructure 90 00:05:32,419 --> 00:05:35,659 that is being built right now is gonna be a major catalyst for the next, 91 00:05:36,109 --> 00:05:37,464 uh, bull run because we were seeing. 92 00:05:38,249 --> 00:05:41,009 So much exciting stuff being built and so many people getting 93 00:05:41,009 --> 00:05:42,119 together and partnering up. 94 00:05:42,119 --> 00:05:44,249 So I think that's the, the, the one thing I would say. 95 00:05:44,399 --> 00:05:48,179 Anja: Yeah, one of the most surprising things that I, I've come across in 96 00:05:48,179 --> 00:05:51,329 Australia, like I never would've thought before getting into Bitcoin 97 00:05:51,749 --> 00:05:53,669 that we would have so much talent. 98 00:05:54,124 --> 00:05:57,784 You know, here in Australia, 'cause we're quite isolated from the rest of the world. 99 00:05:58,114 --> 00:05:59,764 Um, geographically at least. 100 00:05:59,764 --> 00:06:04,264 And like I, I'm just in complete awe, they're just, the innovation that's 101 00:06:04,264 --> 00:06:07,294 happening here and some of the products that are going to come out, which I 102 00:06:07,294 --> 00:06:11,014 won't say what they are, but like, they, they're going to be world changing that 103 00:06:11,014 --> 00:06:15,724 can totally see lots of people all over the world using some of these solutions. 104 00:06:15,724 --> 00:06:17,614 And it's just really, really amazing. 105 00:06:18,109 --> 00:06:19,129 To, yeah. 106 00:06:19,129 --> 00:06:20,689 Be alongside all these builders. 107 00:06:20,689 --> 00:06:24,529 It's, it's, it's just amazing that you, the whole kind of Bitcoin community 108 00:06:24,559 --> 00:06:29,839 tends to attract these really, like introverted, high functioning, very 109 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:35,359 high like, um, agency people that just, you know, when I do things. 110 00:06:35,359 --> 00:06:38,329 But yeah, I agree with like, the infighting has been 111 00:06:38,329 --> 00:06:39,649 particularly bad lately. 112 00:06:39,649 --> 00:06:44,659 I've kind of like just stepped back a little bit just to recoup some energy and. 113 00:06:45,319 --> 00:06:50,269 Join back the Twitter spaces and be one in debates 114 00:06:50,359 --> 00:06:53,029 Fernando: what you're saying about, you know, like, people building right 115 00:06:53,029 --> 00:06:54,799 now and having a, a specific energy. 116 00:06:54,799 --> 00:06:56,239 I think it's very needed. 117 00:06:56,299 --> 00:07:00,259 I think if you take a look at the first 10 years of Bitcoin, I think 118 00:07:00,259 --> 00:07:03,409 there's been a lot of, a lot of, um. 119 00:07:04,219 --> 00:07:07,609 I, I don't wanna say decisions because a lot of, a lot of things are pretty 120 00:07:07,609 --> 00:07:09,259 disorganized in the Bitcoin community. 121 00:07:09,259 --> 00:07:13,519 Obviously it's a decentralized thing, so the organization is also 122 00:07:13,519 --> 00:07:15,079 disorganized and decentralized. 123 00:07:15,529 --> 00:07:19,639 But I think the first 10 years of, of Bitcoin's history has been 124 00:07:19,639 --> 00:07:23,719 extremely detrimental in terms of adoption for two specific reasons. 125 00:07:23,874 --> 00:07:25,999 One is the attitude of the builders. 126 00:07:26,359 --> 00:07:31,069 Like I, I I totally respect, uh, all the people who, who, 127 00:07:31,069 --> 00:07:32,719 who built Bitcoin obviously. 128 00:07:33,574 --> 00:07:38,044 And it laid a foundation, uh, and, and, and thought about not fucking 129 00:07:38,044 --> 00:07:41,884 it up, but that kind of mentality. 130 00:07:41,884 --> 00:07:46,294 Brought a bunch of people that were essentially, uh, you know, 131 00:07:46,444 --> 00:07:48,814 artists building for other artists. 132 00:07:48,814 --> 00:07:51,544 You needed to be a genius to use the, the tools. 133 00:07:51,994 --> 00:07:54,724 And, uh, there were people that the last thing that they cared 134 00:07:54,724 --> 00:07:59,914 about was UX or ui or creating, you know, a delightful product. 135 00:08:00,094 --> 00:08:02,974 It was like cipher punk, write coats and, and that's it. 136 00:08:03,334 --> 00:08:06,034 And, and that is not good for adoption. 137 00:08:06,334 --> 00:08:07,084 And then the second thing. 138 00:08:07,659 --> 00:08:12,669 Is also, um, a little bit of the, um, the, um, the approach that we 139 00:08:12,669 --> 00:08:17,109 take to convincing people, like in terms of like spreading influence. 140 00:08:17,379 --> 00:08:22,869 I would say number go up has been the best thing for adoption in terms of 141 00:08:22,869 --> 00:08:26,499 convincing people to get in because you, like, like they say, you come 142 00:08:26,499 --> 00:08:29,829 for the, for the NGU, but you stay for the revolution or whatever. 143 00:08:30,069 --> 00:08:32,619 You kinda like, you fall into different rabbit holes after you, 144 00:08:32,859 --> 00:08:35,919 you just wanna be part of the, the, the price going up, right? 145 00:08:36,129 --> 00:08:40,359 It's like very, very primal, very like instinctive decision making. 146 00:08:41,439 --> 00:08:46,119 But uh, the actual adoption, the actual influencing that people have 147 00:08:46,119 --> 00:08:51,909 been trying that it was not about price has been about like, um, total 148 00:08:51,909 --> 00:08:54,249 like tone deaf attitudes, right? 149 00:08:54,249 --> 00:08:56,889 Like, um, you know, orange. 150 00:08:57,469 --> 00:09:03,409 Orange pilling is, is tricky because when you, um, get convinced about Bitcoin, 151 00:09:04,309 --> 00:09:08,929 there's a specific set of things, arguments that convinces you, right? 152 00:09:09,169 --> 00:09:11,209 And number one, it takes time. 153 00:09:11,449 --> 00:09:13,819 Like you won't, you won't be convinced about Bitcoin the 154 00:09:13,819 --> 00:09:15,409 first time you hear it anyway. 155 00:09:15,769 --> 00:09:20,359 You need to kind of like take your life experiences, the your, the way 156 00:09:20,359 --> 00:09:22,239 you see life, uh, you know, your. 157 00:09:23,119 --> 00:09:26,929 Uh, you know, your filter to see the world, you gotta put that into the 158 00:09:26,929 --> 00:09:29,179 context of where Bitcoin fits, right? 159 00:09:29,419 --> 00:09:32,419 So it's a highly like individual personal journey that you take. 160 00:09:32,779 --> 00:09:35,299 And then, you know, if it clicks, it clicks. 161 00:09:35,839 --> 00:09:37,279 Um, for me it clicked. 162 00:09:37,279 --> 00:09:41,539 For example, being from Argentina, uh, you know, my, my family emigrated from 163 00:09:41,539 --> 00:09:43,339 Argentina because of hyperinflation. 164 00:09:43,789 --> 00:09:47,089 In my life, I tried to under, I tried to understand why this is a thing. 165 00:09:47,089 --> 00:09:50,569 Why does Argentina keep having these like inflation problems? 166 00:09:50,869 --> 00:09:55,639 That led me to, uh, read about Mees and the Austrian economics, and then when 167 00:09:55,639 --> 00:09:59,449 I saw Bitcoin through the lens of like Austrian economics and the monetary 168 00:09:59,449 --> 00:10:01,309 properties, that's where it clicked. 169 00:10:01,699 --> 00:10:06,499 But if I got some dude from Germany who, uh, loved Bitcoin because of 170 00:10:06,499 --> 00:10:09,529 the cryptography, and he was trying to sell me Bitcoin through the 171 00:10:09,529 --> 00:10:11,629 cryptography lens, that convinced him. 172 00:10:12,304 --> 00:10:14,074 I would be like, whatever, I don't fucking care. 173 00:10:14,074 --> 00:10:14,854 It's not interesting. 174 00:10:15,184 --> 00:10:18,574 And that is kind of like the, the, what the majority of the Bitcoin 175 00:10:18,574 --> 00:10:20,314 community have done over years. 176 00:10:20,314 --> 00:10:23,224 It's like what I believe in, you need to believe in. 177 00:10:23,644 --> 00:10:26,524 And it's not how, that's not how influence, uh, works. 178 00:10:26,524 --> 00:10:28,054 You need to meet people where they are. 179 00:10:28,354 --> 00:10:29,464 You need to be empathetic. 180 00:10:29,464 --> 00:10:31,264 You need to ask them questions. 181 00:10:31,264 --> 00:10:33,904 You need to understand what are, what are the pain points? 182 00:10:34,024 --> 00:10:34,984 What do they care about? 183 00:10:35,134 --> 00:10:36,394 What are they afraid about? 184 00:10:36,484 --> 00:10:39,964 You gotta tap into those emotions and we haven't done that. 185 00:10:40,254 --> 00:10:45,414 As, as, as Bitcoiners, but I believe now, and to your point, I'm sorry for the rant. 186 00:10:45,864 --> 00:10:51,174 Um, now there's a generation that actually thinks about UX, that thinks about UI 187 00:10:51,474 --> 00:10:55,914 that has grown up using smartphones and maybe, you know, these like neo 188 00:10:55,914 --> 00:11:01,944 banks, these FinTech apps, so they know what like good UI UX looks like and 189 00:11:01,944 --> 00:11:05,754 they try to bring some of that over to Bitcoin so that Normies can actually. 190 00:11:06,199 --> 00:11:08,959 Open up a Bitcoin wallet and know what the fuck is happening when 191 00:11:08,959 --> 00:11:10,639 they open up the, the wallet. 192 00:11:10,879 --> 00:11:14,419 And then also on the, on the communications, on the marketing side, 193 00:11:14,419 --> 00:11:15,499 I think we're also getting better. 194 00:11:15,499 --> 00:11:20,959 We, we are having like so many different voices that can kind of like plug into 195 00:11:20,959 --> 00:11:22,909 different needs and different situations. 196 00:11:22,909 --> 00:11:26,449 You have the circular economy in Africa and Latin America. 197 00:11:26,449 --> 00:11:28,969 You have the, the suit coins in Wall Street. 198 00:11:28,969 --> 00:11:32,089 You, you, you're starting to see like so many fragmented. 199 00:11:32,584 --> 00:11:37,804 Um, voices that cater to very specific niches, and I think that's, that's 200 00:11:37,804 --> 00:11:39,514 the key for growing this thing. 201 00:11:39,844 --> 00:11:43,744 We, you know, it's not about mass adoption anymore in terms of like one 202 00:11:43,744 --> 00:11:45,724 big movement, uh, taken over the world. 203 00:11:45,934 --> 00:11:50,134 It's fragmented adoption where people talk to people of the, of their own, 204 00:11:50,134 --> 00:11:55,024 like, and they, and they like translate the Bitcoin values into the, the 205 00:11:55,024 --> 00:11:56,584 values that, that they believe in. 206 00:11:56,584 --> 00:12:00,364 So I'm super bullish for the future for, for, for these two specific reasons. 207 00:12:02,749 --> 00:12:06,109 Speaker 4: Quick one for the Aussies listening hard block is offering 208 00:12:06,109 --> 00:12:08,809 a $10 signup discount right now. 209 00:12:09,049 --> 00:12:12,559 And if you're with another exchange, ask yourself this. 210 00:12:12,889 --> 00:12:16,519 Are they Australia's longest running Bitcoin only exchange? 211 00:12:16,729 --> 00:12:19,159 Because if not, maybe it's time to switch. 212 00:12:19,729 --> 00:12:26,569 Head to hard block.com au slash join slash Honest Money and 213 00:12:26,569 --> 00:12:28,489 start stacking stats today. 214 00:12:29,319 --> 00:12:30,399 Anja: Yeah, me too. 215 00:12:30,459 --> 00:12:33,519 And I love that you're talking about this because this was my whole talk 216 00:12:33,519 --> 00:12:37,929 that I did at a previous Bush Bash in Parks last year, I wanna say. 217 00:12:37,929 --> 00:12:38,019 Nice. 218 00:12:38,529 --> 00:12:38,769 Yeah. 219 00:12:38,769 --> 00:12:39,219 Last year. 220 00:12:40,029 --> 00:12:43,329 And um, yeah, it was kind of broken down in three segments. 221 00:12:43,329 --> 00:12:48,729 The first segment was talking about the UX ui, and it was kind of jokingly put 222 00:12:48,729 --> 00:12:53,679 out all of these like Bitcoin products and services and wallets versus crypto 223 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,119 products and services and wallets. 224 00:12:55,389 --> 00:12:59,559 Say, you can see that in crypto, wider crypto, they do 225 00:12:59,589 --> 00:13:01,329 focus a lot more on UX and ui. 226 00:13:02,499 --> 00:13:05,739 We focus obviously a lot more on security and those types of things, 227 00:13:05,739 --> 00:13:09,819 which is very important, but there's no reason why we need to trade, you know, 228 00:13:09,819 --> 00:13:12,069 things looking pretty and easy to use. 229 00:13:13,449 --> 00:13:17,679 But yeah, surprisingly also completely unrelated seed signer, which is like 230 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:22,989 the most secure wallet that you can get, is really, um, really user friendly. 231 00:13:22,989 --> 00:13:24,279 I was so surprised. 232 00:13:25,344 --> 00:13:29,064 Better, some of the better than some of the wallets that, um, have marketing, 233 00:13:29,304 --> 00:13:31,014 a lot of marketing budget behind them. 234 00:13:31,014 --> 00:13:33,174 So there is hope for us. 235 00:13:33,294 --> 00:13:33,894 Um, 236 00:13:33,984 --> 00:13:34,134 Fernando: yes. 237 00:13:34,404 --> 00:13:38,394 Anja: But yeah, the o the other, um, the other topic I had was in the middle 238 00:13:38,394 --> 00:13:43,044 was about yeah, that those kind of like subcultures, people want to hear 239 00:13:43,044 --> 00:13:47,004 about Bitcoin from people that you know are their reference point in life. 240 00:13:47,004 --> 00:13:47,424 And I gave. 241 00:13:47,524 --> 00:13:48,334 Some examples. 242 00:13:48,334 --> 00:13:51,574 We have like a colorectal surgeon in Australia. 243 00:13:51,574 --> 00:13:55,444 I haven't never met him, but he speaks to like the, his medical colleagues 244 00:13:55,444 --> 00:13:58,624 about Bitcoin and it's like, you know, it's, I'm sure they would 245 00:13:58,624 --> 00:14:00,514 rather hear it from him than me. 246 00:14:01,444 --> 00:14:05,914 And yeah, there's heaps of, I, I know us for example, has some groups that 247 00:14:05,914 --> 00:14:09,874 are like war veterans talking about Bitcoin with other war, war VE vets. 248 00:14:10,174 --> 00:14:13,054 Whenever I put a W and a V together, I always mix it up. 249 00:14:14,334 --> 00:14:20,034 And then, and then the final one was, um, you know, preaching to or 250 00:14:20,034 --> 00:14:24,054 to the half converted, which is like that crypto crowd, like a lot of them 251 00:14:24,114 --> 00:14:25,914 don't need convincing on Bitcoin. 252 00:14:25,914 --> 00:14:30,414 They just need to step away from some of the bad marketing that they've been 253 00:14:30,414 --> 00:14:32,694 exposed to in the wider crypto space. 254 00:14:33,174 --> 00:14:36,364 Um, yeah, I, I live in the northern rivers in Australia and. 255 00:14:36,609 --> 00:14:40,839 People are very like open-minded here, but we do have, you know, people coming 256 00:14:40,839 --> 00:14:45,429 to our monthly meetups and they have a lot of coins in their portfolio. 257 00:14:45,429 --> 00:14:48,639 They don't necessarily know what they hold, why they hold it. 258 00:14:48,639 --> 00:14:53,169 So it is just kind of like educating them about, you know, the risks 259 00:14:53,169 --> 00:14:54,699 and, and, and, you know, sure. 260 00:14:54,699 --> 00:14:57,454 Invest your money in whatever you want, as long as you know that it's, it's. 261 00:14:57,994 --> 00:14:59,254 What, what you're investing in. 262 00:14:59,254 --> 00:15:03,304 Um, but yeah, I I I love that you, you care about these 263 00:15:03,304 --> 00:15:05,344 same things and do you Yeah. 264 00:15:05,344 --> 00:15:06,319 Do you wanna say something on 265 00:15:06,319 --> 00:15:06,439 that? 266 00:15:06,479 --> 00:15:08,260 Fernando: I think, uh, that is something that we've also done, I 267 00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:13,750 think that, uh, Bitcoiners has also been very much like in other people's 268 00:15:13,750 --> 00:15:18,640 business, kind of like shaming them for having a diversified portfolio. 269 00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:23,970 I mean, I have 90% Bitcoin, 10% cash. 270 00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:24,960 That's it. 271 00:15:24,990 --> 00:15:28,350 I don't mess around with any of the other shit, but I, that's me. 272 00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:33,960 Like, uh, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna shame another man for what 273 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:35,610 they decide to do with their money. 274 00:15:35,970 --> 00:15:38,490 Um, I'm going to tell them like, Hey man, you know, Bitcoin is 275 00:15:38,490 --> 00:15:39,900 the fastest horse in the race. 276 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,300 And, um, you know, it has a very different profile in nature compared 277 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:46,980 to the other, the other stuff. 278 00:15:47,535 --> 00:15:50,295 And all I can do is just, uh, say that. 279 00:15:50,385 --> 00:15:52,875 But I can't say like, oh, bro, you're wrong. 280 00:15:53,115 --> 00:15:55,335 Or like, uh, you're fucked up. 281 00:15:55,335 --> 00:15:55,875 You don't know. 282 00:15:55,875 --> 00:15:58,935 You don't know what you're talking about, man, you're gonna fucking go to zero. 283 00:15:58,935 --> 00:15:59,595 You're gonna get broke. 284 00:16:00,675 --> 00:16:05,900 Um, people need to get their, through their own means, through life 285 00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:10,515 experience, through time, through arguments with, you know, normal 286 00:16:10,515 --> 00:16:12,105 people that have conversations. 287 00:16:12,105 --> 00:16:14,325 And, uh, like you said, you know, if it takes. 288 00:16:15,675 --> 00:16:17,340 A war, war veteran. 289 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,050 Uh, I also have the W and the Vs. 290 00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:19,950 Uh, messed up. 291 00:16:20,430 --> 00:16:23,310 If you take a war veteran to another war veteran to actually 292 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,480 make the message go through, then yeah, then what's the problem? 293 00:16:27,810 --> 00:16:33,240 I mean, this, if a total stranger came to me and said, X, Y, and Z, 294 00:16:34,110 --> 00:16:38,220 and, and then, uh, my wife comes and tells me the exact same thing. 295 00:16:38,220 --> 00:16:40,560 I'm gonna listen to her than a, than a stranger. 296 00:16:40,590 --> 00:16:41,280 It's obvious. 297 00:16:42,075 --> 00:16:46,095 Um, I think a lot of, a lot of Bitcoiners that are a little bit 298 00:16:46,425 --> 00:16:51,825 like not in touch with people or society, I don't know what it is, 299 00:16:51,825 --> 00:16:53,595 maybe they're like chronically online. 300 00:16:55,275 --> 00:16:58,125 They just don't know how to talk to people, but they still talk to people 301 00:16:58,215 --> 00:16:59,715 not knowing how to talk to people. 302 00:16:59,715 --> 00:17:02,685 And I think that is so detrimental and I think that has set us back. 303 00:17:02,925 --> 00:17:05,805 Uh, honestly, it has set us back because you would think that. 304 00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:09,540 You would think, like I, I'm from Argentina, for example. 305 00:17:09,540 --> 00:17:12,960 You would think that people from Argentina going through hyperinflation 306 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,900 would understand Bitcoin in a, in, in a, in a heartbeat. 307 00:17:16,170 --> 00:17:17,640 Like it's a, it's a no brainer for them. 308 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:17,940 Right? 309 00:17:18,330 --> 00:17:18,840 Guess what? 310 00:17:18,870 --> 00:17:21,570 Ethereum is the biggest community in Argentina when it comes to 311 00:17:21,690 --> 00:17:23,010 this whole crypto thing, and. 312 00:17:24,165 --> 00:17:30,735 If they wanna like, you know, go with the thesis of, uh, you know, uh, 313 00:17:30,765 --> 00:17:34,365 store value, preserving purchasing power and stuff like that, they go 314 00:17:34,365 --> 00:17:37,125 to USD instead of Bitcoin, right? 315 00:17:37,365 --> 00:17:42,090 So stable coins is now the preferred thing, uh, and. 316 00:17:42,605 --> 00:17:43,445 And not Bitcoin. 317 00:17:43,865 --> 00:17:47,675 And it's obvious because volatility is real. 318 00:17:47,765 --> 00:17:47,825 Yeah. 319 00:17:47,855 --> 00:17:49,475 Like you have to stomach that. 320 00:17:49,475 --> 00:17:53,255 You need to unlearn, you gotta wire your head differently to understand 321 00:17:53,255 --> 00:17:55,085 why volatility is good essentially. 322 00:17:55,505 --> 00:18:00,920 Now, and I don't wanna sound too harsh, but the people who understand the uh 323 00:18:01,530 --> 00:18:06,090 the good stuff about volatility are going to be people in Wall Street in 324 00:18:06,090 --> 00:18:10,410 the institutional realm, 'cause they deal with a lot of volatile assets. 325 00:18:10,590 --> 00:18:15,960 There is an index for vol volatility, the vix, so they understand that language. 326 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:22,350 Some like, uh, dude who sells uh, juices in a corner of the street in Argentina 327 00:18:22,620 --> 00:18:24,900 it's not gonna understand that deeply. 328 00:18:25,170 --> 00:18:26,250 They're gonna see the chart and say. 329 00:18:26,630 --> 00:18:27,890 This crashed 40%. 330 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:29,030 What, what, what is this? 331 00:18:29,030 --> 00:18:30,230 Uh, store of value bullshit. 332 00:18:30,740 --> 00:18:38,580 Um, so there's going to be people that are already rich that are already privileged, 333 00:18:38,940 --> 00:18:43,830 who are already more financial literate, who are going to understand Bitcoin first. 334 00:18:43,980 --> 00:18:48,060 I mean, there is a reason why Bitcoin is adopted the most in North 335 00:18:48,060 --> 00:18:49,920 America and Europe historically. 336 00:18:50,430 --> 00:18:54,240 You take a look at, take a look at all the lightning notes that are on the 337 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,990 map, and it's like Europe and North America back to back, and then some like 338 00:18:57,990 --> 00:19:00,900 lose, uh, you know, nodes elsewhere. 339 00:19:01,230 --> 00:19:02,970 And that is just because education is low. 340 00:19:03,390 --> 00:19:05,100 Argentina education is low. 341 00:19:05,460 --> 00:19:10,470 People don't understand concepts that are like translated as digital gold or 342 00:19:10,470 --> 00:19:12,180 Austrian economics and stuff like that. 343 00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:16,050 All they know is shit gets more expensive and they don't understand why. 344 00:19:16,470 --> 00:19:21,090 So you need to really meet them at their level, which I'm, I'm, I'm 345 00:19:21,090 --> 00:19:25,965 sorry to say, it's a very uneducated illiterate, like financially illiterate 346 00:19:25,965 --> 00:19:29,205 level, and you gotta break it down like they were fucking five years old. 347 00:19:29,595 --> 00:19:31,785 But here we come with like, Hey, read the white paper, 348 00:19:31,785 --> 00:19:33,795 bro, and then ask me anything. 349 00:19:33,885 --> 00:19:36,735 Like, they're not gonna understand anything of the white paper if you just 350 00:19:36,735 --> 00:19:38,205 give it to them without any context. 351 00:19:38,505 --> 00:19:40,665 So you need to meet people where they are. 352 00:19:40,905 --> 00:19:46,575 Luckily, the media fragmentation that we're experiencing right now where 353 00:19:47,085 --> 00:19:52,950 you may be know about an author that has sold millions of books, and then 354 00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:56,040 you come to me and ask me about that author, and I have never heard about him. 355 00:19:56,460 --> 00:19:59,430 That's the media fragmentation that is happening now in real time and is 356 00:19:59,430 --> 00:20:04,890 only gonna get more and more intense because you know, um, algorithms are 357 00:20:04,890 --> 00:20:10,320 putting you in a, in a very small box, uh, you know, ba and also just gonna 358 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,170 give you more of what you already have signal that you kind of like. 359 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,980 So it's not, there's no more discovery happening really apart from like 360 00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:21,150 violence and gore and, and political violence and shit like that, that gets 361 00:20:21,150 --> 00:20:25,800 promoted almost daily in terms of like actually discovering and stuff like that. 362 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,080 No, we're gonna go back to communities. 363 00:20:29,445 --> 00:20:33,465 In, in real life events and you gotta like meet them where they are. 364 00:20:33,705 --> 00:20:34,245 That's it. 365 00:20:34,515 --> 00:20:42,885 Um, and there's probably going to be, um, pockets of the internet where 366 00:20:42,885 --> 00:20:44,170 you can see the same thing happening. 367 00:20:45,585 --> 00:20:49,335 Like at that low level in Buenos Aires, also happening in South Africa. 368 00:20:49,575 --> 00:20:54,315 So you will, that, that guy who will meet this other guy in real life will 369 00:20:54,315 --> 00:20:58,035 be able to pull up his phone and say, this is happening in South Africa too. 370 00:20:58,035 --> 00:20:59,775 This is happening in the Philippines too. 371 00:21:00,165 --> 00:21:04,065 As a, as a way to like, just to have a deeper understanding of 372 00:21:04,065 --> 00:21:07,155 like what Bitcoin can mean for this particular person named Buenos Aires. 373 00:21:07,815 --> 00:21:08,595 Am I ranting too much? 374 00:21:08,595 --> 00:21:09,435 I hope I makes sense. 375 00:21:11,370 --> 00:21:13,335 Anja: I, I, I, I love all of these insights. 376 00:21:13,335 --> 00:21:17,175 I'm still, my brain is still stuck on, I can't believe, I can understand 377 00:21:17,175 --> 00:21:22,290 why people in Argentina would prefer stable coins over Bitcoin, but I can't 378 00:21:22,295 --> 00:21:26,505 understand why they would, the Ethereum community is bigger than the Bitcoin. 379 00:21:26,505 --> 00:21:27,255 Like what? 380 00:21:27,705 --> 00:21:28,215 Why? 381 00:21:30,495 --> 00:21:31,215 Fernando: I can tell you why. 382 00:21:31,845 --> 00:21:35,595 So the reason is that when you live in Argentina and 383 00:21:37,815 --> 00:21:42,195 when you live in Argentina and you're late teenager in your early 384 00:21:42,195 --> 00:21:49,275 twenties, uh, you understand like, fuck, I got, I got two choices. 385 00:21:49,695 --> 00:21:54,945 Either I leave, uh, my country and I try to get a job in Spain or 386 00:21:54,945 --> 00:21:59,895 Europe or, or the US or whatever, uh, for, for my own future, right? 387 00:22:00,645 --> 00:22:04,155 Or I stay in Argentina and try to try to get money. 388 00:22:05,310 --> 00:22:08,130 Staying in Argentina, trying to get money, the, the, the, the 389 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,440 legal way it's extremely hard. 390 00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:15,120 You have, you know, a, a currency that hates you, a government that hates you. 391 00:22:15,180 --> 00:22:18,480 Uh, you have everything in the world against you, essentially. 392 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,160 And then they think, well, I just go to a country that is more civilized, 393 00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:26,610 that has more infrastructure, that has more jobs, and I can just do that. 394 00:22:27,450 --> 00:22:33,115 But we now live in the age of the internet where you can literally get a laptop. 395 00:22:33,735 --> 00:22:37,935 You can connect to the internet and you can get a job as a graphic designer or 396 00:22:38,025 --> 00:22:41,055 marketer or social media, whatever, right? 397 00:22:41,085 --> 00:22:46,695 Knowledge work online, and you can get clients right that, um, that, uh, 398 00:22:46,755 --> 00:22:48,045 is from anywhere that can pay you. 399 00:22:48,825 --> 00:22:53,115 So Ethereum is like this whole, you know, the, what the community in 400 00:22:53,115 --> 00:22:57,435 Argentina are like, selling the, the Ethereum Foundation in Argentina 401 00:22:57,435 --> 00:22:58,545 is kinda like selling to people. 402 00:22:58,545 --> 00:23:02,115 It's like, Hey, with Ethereum we can plug into the internet of money. 403 00:23:02,610 --> 00:23:06,330 You can build, you can get paid, you can build apps. 404 00:23:06,330 --> 00:23:10,320 This is a whole nother ecosystem that is purely online where you can just 405 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,880 get paid directly and there's no bank accounts, there's no, uh, you know, your 406 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,280 accounts can be frozen, blah, blah, blah. 407 00:23:17,790 --> 00:23:19,830 And they're like, okay, let me look into this. 408 00:23:19,830 --> 00:23:23,610 And then they see like there's a whole huge developer community. 409 00:23:24,300 --> 00:23:26,520 And they're like, okay, yeah, I can learn how to code, I 410 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,320 can learn to build some stuff. 411 00:23:28,590 --> 00:23:32,550 This is even before AI came into place and now everybody can, can build it, right? 412 00:23:32,790 --> 00:23:33,600 And they're like, okay, shit. 413 00:23:33,605 --> 00:23:37,920 I, I go to the ethereum.org website and there's like loads of documentation. 414 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,170 Everything is like super easy. 415 00:23:40,170 --> 00:23:43,020 I can download an SDK and start building right away. 416 00:23:43,170 --> 00:23:44,760 Meanwhile, lemme go to bitcoin.org. 417 00:23:44,790 --> 00:23:45,420 What's over here? 418 00:23:45,420 --> 00:23:46,380 There's fucking nothing. 419 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,210 I can't build nothing here. 420 00:23:48,210 --> 00:23:48,480 Right. 421 00:23:48,870 --> 00:23:53,010 So that's, that's in a nutshell, that's, that's kind of like why. 422 00:23:54,430 --> 00:23:57,435 Ethereum is so much bigger in Argentina because it's, 423 00:23:57,435 --> 00:24:00,765 it's a promise of prosperity. 424 00:24:00,915 --> 00:24:04,965 Uh, is a promise of I can plug into the rest of the world through internet money. 425 00:24:05,295 --> 00:24:07,245 I can build something and I can stay in Argentina. 426 00:24:07,245 --> 00:24:11,295 I don't have to leave my family, uh, to, uh, to get opportunities 427 00:24:11,295 --> 00:24:14,355 like my mom did back in the day when there wasn't any internet. 428 00:24:14,355 --> 00:24:14,625 Right. 429 00:24:14,865 --> 00:24:18,135 So that, that's, that's why, and that's again, another, this is just one 430 00:24:18,135 --> 00:24:22,365 example, probably a thousand of examples of this elsewhere in the world where. 431 00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:28,200 Having this like friendly, open-minded developer community that 432 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,750 is organized, that is capitalized. 433 00:24:30,750 --> 00:24:35,280 Let's be honest, because this is extremely organized institutions. 434 00:24:35,580 --> 00:24:41,460 The Ethereum Foundation, consensus, all of these highly capitalized uh uh, companies, 435 00:24:41,820 --> 00:24:46,200 they coordinate and they organize, and this is what Bitcoin haven't done. 436 00:24:46,350 --> 00:24:49,245 Obviously we can't because we are decentralized. 437 00:24:49,305 --> 00:24:53,715 It's, it's kind of like a, a very organic movement, but that is the reason. 438 00:24:54,045 --> 00:24:55,425 So just want to explain that to you. 439 00:24:56,715 --> 00:25:00,345 Anja: Yeah, it, it, it kind of makes sense because when I compare to 440 00:25:00,345 --> 00:25:03,735 Australia, we obviously have a lot of different meetups and events here, 441 00:25:03,735 --> 00:25:09,465 and every capital city that I've been to has a Bitcoin and a crypto meetup. 442 00:25:09,465 --> 00:25:14,625 And the crypto meetup group is usually thousands or of participants and the 443 00:25:14,625 --> 00:25:19,395 Bitcoin might have been the tens or the hundreds depending on how big the city is. 444 00:25:19,830 --> 00:25:24,480 And yeah, it's, it's interesting, like obviously marketing is powerful, 445 00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:27,660 more powerful than our word of mouth. 446 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,010 Um, but yeah. 447 00:25:32,310 --> 00:25:32,760 Yeah. 448 00:25:33,090 --> 00:25:36,120 Uh, it's interesting and also kind of remembering what you were saying 449 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:39,930 about like, the different, um, experiences people have with, with 450 00:25:40,140 --> 00:25:41,430 Bitcoin throughout their journey. 451 00:25:41,790 --> 00:25:45,720 One analogy I like to use with, with people when I'm explaining 452 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,460 this, using my marketing background. 453 00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:54,300 Is, um, to buy any kind of product or service, usually, uh, an individual will 454 00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:58,680 have to like, have a touch point with a, let's say, 16 times throughout their, 455 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,060 you know, life, uh, or a season and. 456 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,530 Those kind of touch, different touch points, whether online or in 457 00:26:06,530 --> 00:26:11,570 person or face-to-face, um, will lead to that deci purchase decision. 458 00:26:11,570 --> 00:26:13,760 And obviously this is like averaged out. 459 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:16,070 So it's kind of the same with Bitcoin. 460 00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:20,090 If, you know, my auntie, who her early in account would've been 461 00:26:20,090 --> 00:26:21,260 like, okay, this is interesting. 462 00:26:21,260 --> 00:26:26,390 But she reads in the media and a trusted person disparages it, and then she hears 463 00:26:26,390 --> 00:26:30,750 from one of her colleagues got scammed and then, uh, uh, she has to help a 464 00:26:30,750 --> 00:26:36,180 friend try withdraw Bitcoin from a very dodgy exchange and not able to do so. 465 00:26:36,420 --> 00:26:39,900 It's no surprise that she's, you know, less likely to be 466 00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:43,680 open-minded or, you know, the 15th to 16th time she hears about it. 467 00:26:44,130 --> 00:26:47,700 Whereas, yeah, for people who've had more positive experiences 468 00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:51,100 or might have, you know, like an entry point through cryptography 469 00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:52,900 or Austrian economics or something. 470 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:56,260 Of course they're gonna be more open-minded and and keen 471 00:26:56,260 --> 00:26:57,610 to hear about it 'cause Yeah. 472 00:26:58,789 --> 00:26:59,629 Fernando: That's exactly right. 473 00:26:59,629 --> 00:27:04,369 And I think, uh, you know, every single touch point is super valuable. 474 00:27:04,369 --> 00:27:07,999 It really has to be a perfect string of touch points for it to 475 00:27:07,999 --> 00:27:12,789 fully, uh, be, be welcome, because there's so much noise, there's so 476 00:27:12,789 --> 00:27:14,439 many things, so much information. 477 00:27:14,859 --> 00:27:18,849 Uh, there's like so much information, pollution that in order for you to 478 00:27:18,849 --> 00:27:23,739 like actually keep your interest over these touch points extremely hard. 479 00:27:24,249 --> 00:27:30,069 Uh, and you need like a proper coordinated attack almost, uh, as a, as an entity if 480 00:27:30,069 --> 00:27:31,989 you wanna get someone's business right? 481 00:27:32,349 --> 00:27:33,819 And this is what Bitcoin is not. 482 00:27:34,059 --> 00:27:36,579 So the only thing that, you know, we. 483 00:27:37,074 --> 00:27:42,654 We can hope for is that companies in the Bitcoin industry does that right. 484 00:27:43,014 --> 00:27:49,044 And there's some interesting incentives that comes into play where, um, you know, 485 00:27:49,104 --> 00:27:56,154 companies with, with a brand that can think about brand design communications 486 00:27:56,334 --> 00:27:59,724 and kinda like organize themselves in a very selfish matter of just getting 487 00:27:59,724 --> 00:28:04,644 business and growing their company, that through those companies we can achieve. 488 00:28:05,559 --> 00:28:10,629 You know, multiple, uh, multiple adoption, uh, curves because, uh, 489 00:28:10,899 --> 00:28:15,069 individual Bitcoiners, I'm sorry man, we, we have, we have fucked up. 490 00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:20,619 You know, like so many, I see so many people on, on X saying, I have 491 00:28:20,619 --> 00:28:24,159 given up on orange peeling, you know, it's, I, I don't wanna do it anymore. 492 00:28:24,189 --> 00:28:27,369 If people come to me and ask, okay, I will ask. 493 00:28:28,014 --> 00:28:30,594 I, I will, I will tell them something, but I'm done. 494 00:28:30,804 --> 00:28:31,494 Orange peeling. 495 00:28:31,914 --> 00:28:32,044 I see. 496 00:28:32,094 --> 00:28:32,964 Have you seen those tweets? 497 00:28:32,964 --> 00:28:34,164 I've seen plenty. 498 00:28:35,274 --> 00:28:37,249 Anja: Uh, of, I I haven't, but I You haven't? 499 00:28:37,254 --> 00:28:37,374 Yeah. 500 00:28:37,374 --> 00:28:39,654 I've had a similar kind of experience myself. 501 00:28:39,654 --> 00:28:43,074 Not that I'm done orange peeling, but when I first got in, I, I definitely 502 00:28:43,074 --> 00:28:46,194 was over zealous and I was like, there's the best thing you have 503 00:28:46,194 --> 00:28:47,814 to hear about and learn about it. 504 00:28:47,814 --> 00:28:50,994 Like, and then I'm not pushing information. 505 00:28:52,014 --> 00:28:52,164 Fernando: Yeah. 506 00:28:52,164 --> 00:28:53,334 Because it's like. 507 00:28:54,249 --> 00:28:58,779 The process of rocking quote unquote Bitcoin involves like 508 00:28:58,779 --> 00:29:00,459 unlearning a lot of stuff, right? 509 00:29:00,459 --> 00:29:05,169 So there's like, you think about the world in a certain way and then 510 00:29:05,169 --> 00:29:08,589 you realize, holy shit, I've been thinking about this whole thing wrong. 511 00:29:09,129 --> 00:29:13,869 And if somebody else tells you, Hey, you are wrong about the world, 512 00:29:13,929 --> 00:29:15,429 you're gonna be like, fuck off. 513 00:29:15,459 --> 00:29:15,879 Like shut up. 514 00:29:17,019 --> 00:29:20,859 Coming to that conclusion yourself and telling yourself that, like, whoa, 515 00:29:21,099 --> 00:29:26,019 these things that I've been taught, uh, during, you know, my, my, my school, my 516 00:29:26,019 --> 00:29:30,429 education, what my parents have told me, what society has told me are not true. 517 00:29:30,669 --> 00:29:34,089 Whoa, that's like a crazy 180. 518 00:29:34,359 --> 00:29:37,209 And obviously the emotional reaction is, holy shit, I gotta 519 00:29:37,209 --> 00:29:38,439 tell everybody about this. 520 00:29:38,949 --> 00:29:40,389 But then it's like, okay. 521 00:29:40,419 --> 00:29:42,909 Again, to my point in the beginning of the call, it's like. 522 00:29:43,539 --> 00:29:45,849 The thing that convinced you to get there is not gonna be the 523 00:29:45,849 --> 00:29:48,819 same thing that convinced the other, uh, to get there as well. 524 00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:52,209 So you, we, we get, like I said, overzealous and we were like, we 525 00:29:52,209 --> 00:29:54,549 gotta shout it at the rooftop, at the top of the rooftop. 526 00:29:54,909 --> 00:29:56,439 But hey, what is the message? 527 00:29:56,469 --> 00:29:58,029 What's the, what are we communicating? 528 00:29:58,209 --> 00:29:59,384 We're just communicating what we believe in. 529 00:30:00,819 --> 00:30:02,889 Not, not that the, the rest of the world is not gonna believe 530 00:30:02,889 --> 00:30:04,089 in the exact same thing. 531 00:30:04,449 --> 00:30:08,979 And that's why I say Bitcoin is not for everyone because, uh, 532 00:30:09,189 --> 00:30:11,409 there's just some people that are just not gonna get it as well. 533 00:30:11,889 --> 00:30:13,539 Um, and that's okay. 534 00:30:13,749 --> 00:30:18,059 Um, we wanna, we have this energy when we grow up Bitcoin, like, okay, 535 00:30:18,059 --> 00:30:19,029 it's gonna take over the world. 536 00:30:19,029 --> 00:30:23,139 It's gonna be the new global reserve asset, which might be true, but 537 00:30:24,129 --> 00:30:25,659 it's not gonna happen that fast. 538 00:30:25,689 --> 00:30:30,429 That's one, uh, because there's a lot of people today that lives in the world 539 00:30:30,429 --> 00:30:32,469 today that are never going to get it. 540 00:30:32,679 --> 00:30:35,979 This could be a generational issue, but it could be a, it 541 00:30:35,979 --> 00:30:37,119 could be a background issue. 542 00:30:37,149 --> 00:30:38,379 It's an incentive issue. 543 00:30:38,439 --> 00:30:44,109 A lot of people, they wanna keep the fiat world, you know, going on, uh, because 544 00:30:44,109 --> 00:30:46,419 it's in the best interest, uh, to do that. 545 00:30:46,719 --> 00:30:48,009 Uh, media outlets. 546 00:30:48,429 --> 00:30:51,579 They cannot pivot and all of a sudden say, we were wrong about Bitcoin. 547 00:30:51,579 --> 00:30:53,319 This is, uh, now we're gonna cover it. 548 00:30:53,679 --> 00:30:55,419 Uh, in, in a balanced way. 549 00:30:55,749 --> 00:30:58,929 No, because they have incentives in place where they have built up an 550 00:30:58,929 --> 00:31:04,539 audience trashing Bitcoin, and if they pivot, they're gonna lose that audience. 551 00:31:04,839 --> 00:31:07,959 I mean, so there's, it is, it's not gonna happen. 552 00:31:07,989 --> 00:31:11,169 Global mass adoption all in one stroke, it's gonna be, 553 00:31:11,169 --> 00:31:12,639 we're gonna chip away at it. 554 00:31:13,089 --> 00:31:16,479 And we're all on this together to make it grow further. 555 00:31:16,899 --> 00:31:21,129 And we are going to take a bigger and bigger market share over time. 556 00:31:21,189 --> 00:31:21,759 Yes. 557 00:31:22,449 --> 00:31:25,869 Um, because I do believe in, in this new generation of Bitcoins, and I 558 00:31:25,869 --> 00:31:27,459 see a lot of cool companies that are. 559 00:31:28,029 --> 00:31:32,649 Uh, thinking about UX and UI and brand and looking cool and try to tap into 560 00:31:32,649 --> 00:31:36,369 the mainstream culture and kinda like bridge, bridge the gap between mainstream 561 00:31:36,369 --> 00:31:38,499 normie culture and Bitcoin culture. 562 00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:41,469 Stuff like, you know, cash app square strike. 563 00:31:41,919 --> 00:31:45,939 Um, I would say even Coinbase, a lot of people are gonna hate me for this, 564 00:31:46,299 --> 00:31:52,239 but like Coinbase are creating some ads that are like chef's Kiss, uh, and uh. 565 00:31:54,009 --> 00:31:55,599 Or shit, coin Casino, fuck it. 566 00:31:55,959 --> 00:32:02,589 Um, but they have really nailed it by like nice production value, awesome 567 00:32:02,589 --> 00:32:09,159 communication, great messaging, and that's gonna drive adoption forward, but it's 568 00:32:09,159 --> 00:32:11,559 going to be one bit at a time, you know? 569 00:32:11,709 --> 00:32:16,929 Um, that's, I think we need to accept that as a, as Bitcoins that it's not gonna, 570 00:32:17,169 --> 00:32:19,059 it is gonna change the world, but slowly. 571 00:32:20,309 --> 00:32:24,999 Anja: Not in exactly the way we expect or in the timeline that we might hope for. 572 00:32:24,999 --> 00:32:29,859 Yeah, I, I think about this all the time, um, in terms of, of like what the 573 00:32:29,859 --> 00:32:34,974 adoption is gonna look like from here onwards, because there's just like, I 574 00:32:34,974 --> 00:32:39,684 try to like imagine scenarios where like, what if, you know, someone's so busy 575 00:32:39,684 --> 00:32:44,874 fighting all these, you know, geopolitical wars and, and, and things, and all of a 576 00:32:44,874 --> 00:32:51,114 sudden this things just keep ticking and sneaking up on all of us and, and, yeah. 577 00:32:51,509 --> 00:32:51,689 I don't know. 578 00:32:52,349 --> 00:32:52,859 I don't know. 579 00:32:52,859 --> 00:32:54,419 It ke keeps me up at night. 580 00:32:54,856 --> 00:33:00,406 Fernando: Um, I think, um, that, um, we see, we say that, you know, with 581 00:33:00,406 --> 00:33:05,686 inflation and fiat currency, that things are just gonna get worse, right? 582 00:33:05,686 --> 00:33:07,606 Until fiat kind of like dies out. 583 00:33:08,386 --> 00:33:13,396 And I feel like a res, a very direct result of the inflationary properties 584 00:33:13,456 --> 00:33:19,366 that fiat money has is, you know, people, the poorest people, they need 585 00:33:19,366 --> 00:33:21,106 to work extra hard just to get by. 586 00:33:22,141 --> 00:33:26,521 And, you know, they, they have kids to feed, they have families and whatever. 587 00:33:26,551 --> 00:33:29,281 Just taking care of yourself is gonna be harder and harder 588 00:33:29,281 --> 00:33:31,261 just by yourself being alone. 589 00:33:31,921 --> 00:33:36,931 And that might translate into people getting two, three part-time jobs. 590 00:33:37,621 --> 00:33:40,411 Um, being more busy, uh, like really struggling, right? 591 00:33:40,411 --> 00:33:46,891 Like an Uber driver might drive 16 hours a day just to put food on the table. 592 00:33:47,521 --> 00:33:48,601 So these people. 593 00:33:49,291 --> 00:33:54,601 That truly needs Bitcoin, that needs to hear about it, that needs to be educated 594 00:33:54,601 --> 00:33:58,411 about it, are increasingly gonna have less, less time to actually sit down and, 595 00:33:59,161 --> 00:34:04,651 uh, read a book or follow podcasts and, and sit down and watch YouTube videos. 596 00:34:05,011 --> 00:34:07,351 So what's going to happen with that? 597 00:34:07,381 --> 00:34:07,621 Right. 598 00:34:07,621 --> 00:34:11,881 I think, the lens is getting smaller and smaller and more narrow and more 599 00:34:11,881 --> 00:34:19,231 narrow, and the only hope that I have is that we fragment so much that. 600 00:34:20,386 --> 00:34:23,716 You know, an Uber driver will understand Bitcoin just because 601 00:34:23,716 --> 00:34:25,516 of one reason and one reason only. 602 00:34:25,966 --> 00:34:29,506 And that reason is just gonna stay true and not gonna change because 603 00:34:29,506 --> 00:34:33,076 this person doesn't have time to think about Bitcoin in any other way. 604 00:34:33,556 --> 00:34:38,446 So I think adoption in the future is going to look like a bunch of more people. 605 00:34:38,791 --> 00:34:41,701 Using Bitcoin, but for wildly different reasons. 606 00:34:41,701 --> 00:34:43,471 To your point, you were, you were mentioning that, right? 607 00:34:43,471 --> 00:34:47,971 Like all this like infighting and reactions from older Bitcoiners 608 00:34:48,271 --> 00:34:51,211 who are like, I don't agree with how Bitcoin is being used. 609 00:34:52,171 --> 00:34:56,851 And um, it's going to increasingly be more of those people. 610 00:34:57,156 --> 00:35:04,036 Uh, if, if these people they clinging to their like ideology or like this, 611 00:35:04,036 --> 00:35:08,566 like deep conviction that convinced them in the first place about what 612 00:35:08,566 --> 00:35:09,781 Bitcoin is and what it should be. 613 00:35:10,801 --> 00:35:14,281 If they continue with that like one so reason, they're 614 00:35:14,281 --> 00:35:15,571 gonna have a very tough time. 615 00:35:15,691 --> 00:35:18,541 They're gonna like rage quit Bitcoin in the future, I feel like, because 616 00:35:18,751 --> 00:35:20,161 we already see it now, right? 617 00:35:20,161 --> 00:35:24,691 Like with people having a problem, um, with all well, wall Street 618 00:35:24,691 --> 00:35:28,231 taking over, or Sailor uh, buying so much more Bitcoin, right? 619 00:35:28,501 --> 00:35:31,741 And these are people that are more like Cipher punk, closer to 620 00:35:31,741 --> 00:35:33,421 the Cipher punk ethos perhaps. 621 00:35:33,781 --> 00:35:39,106 Or they might be like medium of exchange maxes that are like, no, no, no, we 622 00:35:39,106 --> 00:35:41,086 need, we need the Bitcoin to flow. 623 00:35:41,086 --> 00:35:42,496 We need people to spend Bitcoin. 624 00:35:42,496 --> 00:35:43,936 We need to build circular economy. 625 00:35:43,936 --> 00:35:47,596 So just buying Bitcoin and like storing it is not good. 626 00:35:47,836 --> 00:35:51,436 Uh, 'cause then the people who needs Bitcoin in the circular economies 627 00:35:51,436 --> 00:35:53,806 are going to have to buy Bitcoin at a higher price, stuff like that. 628 00:35:53,806 --> 00:35:54,016 Right? 629 00:35:54,226 --> 00:35:56,926 So we already started to see these frictions. 630 00:35:57,646 --> 00:36:02,926 Not about like BIP one 20, uh, one 10 or whatever, but it's literally about 631 00:36:03,346 --> 00:36:08,146 this is the right way to use Bitcoin, the wrong way to use Bitcoin, and this 632 00:36:08,146 --> 00:36:14,011 splintering is first of all, it's kinda like the end of the Bitcoin monoculture. 633 00:36:14,041 --> 00:36:15,931 There is no Bitcoin community anymore. 634 00:36:16,261 --> 00:36:20,641 There is not a definition of like what a Bitcoin or is anymore. 635 00:36:20,881 --> 00:36:24,061 There's just a bunch of people who love Bitcoin for widely different reasons, 636 00:36:24,691 --> 00:36:29,101 and it's gonna be used in very different ways, in ways you don't agree with. 637 00:36:29,581 --> 00:36:32,131 And I think we need to accept that. 638 00:36:32,131 --> 00:36:35,791 I can't believe there are Bitcoiners who have been years 639 00:36:35,791 --> 00:36:38,251 into this who have a problem with. 640 00:36:38,526 --> 00:36:39,036 Oh, no, no, no. 641 00:36:39,036 --> 00:36:40,146 You're using it wrong. 642 00:36:40,386 --> 00:36:42,066 Like, what the hell are you talking about? 643 00:36:42,486 --> 00:36:46,356 Like, and these are the same people who are like, oh, Bitcoin 644 00:36:46,361 --> 00:36:47,436 is gonna take over the world. 645 00:36:47,766 --> 00:36:52,656 Where if Bitcoin's gonna take over the world, the world is different, man. 646 00:36:52,686 --> 00:36:57,636 There's, there's a variety in humans in, uh, situations and societies. 647 00:36:57,846 --> 00:37:00,726 So that's, the usage of money is gonna be a reflection of the 648 00:37:00,726 --> 00:37:02,556 variety that we have in society. 649 00:37:02,886 --> 00:37:06,096 So if you have a problem with people from different places 650 00:37:06,096 --> 00:37:07,326 using Bitcoin differently. 651 00:37:07,836 --> 00:37:09,666 What kind of world do you want? 652 00:37:10,366 --> 00:37:10,756 It's like, 653 00:37:10,936 --> 00:37:11,926 Anja: he's just so funny. 654 00:37:12,736 --> 00:37:13,306 It's so funny. 655 00:37:13,306 --> 00:37:16,276 It's like I'm libertarian, but I will tell you how to use your money. 656 00:37:17,191 --> 00:37:17,481 Fernando: Yeah. 657 00:37:19,876 --> 00:37:20,521 Anja: That kind of guess makes no 658 00:37:20,521 --> 00:37:20,681 Fernando: sense. 659 00:37:20,861 --> 00:37:25,036 Anja: But yeah, like sometimes I also wonder, like I'm obviously, you and I 660 00:37:25,036 --> 00:37:28,306 are so close to Bitcoin, so every time there's like new news out, you know, 661 00:37:28,306 --> 00:37:33,976 say, well, more Bitcoin or a new large vendor in America is accepting Bitcoin 662 00:37:33,976 --> 00:37:37,456 or somehow integrating it into their business, and we're like so excited. 663 00:37:37,456 --> 00:37:40,636 But like, does the average consumer of that business even know that? 664 00:37:40,726 --> 00:37:45,916 Like, do you know, what's that like burger place that recently started accepting, 665 00:37:45,916 --> 00:37:50,536 we're like, well, you know, like a whole chain across the US is now you can, you 666 00:37:50,536 --> 00:37:54,946 know, pay for your burger in Bitcoin, but like, do average shoppers know that? 667 00:37:55,036 --> 00:37:55,306 Do they. 668 00:37:57,076 --> 00:37:57,286 I dunno. 669 00:37:57,646 --> 00:37:57,916 Fernando: No, 670 00:37:57,976 --> 00:37:59,506 Anja: it's probably not like, and 671 00:37:59,596 --> 00:38:00,016 Fernando: that, that's, that's the thing. 672 00:38:00,016 --> 00:38:04,196 I think we, we, know, a lot of, a lot of companies from outside of Bitcoin, they 673 00:38:04,466 --> 00:38:10,616 obviously see, uh, the Bitcoin community, but I think they see it as, I don't know, 674 00:38:10,676 --> 00:38:13,346 the, the BMX, uh, dirt bike community. 675 00:38:13,346 --> 00:38:18,086 It's just a community that if we pander to them that they're gonna react and 676 00:38:18,086 --> 00:38:21,836 they're gonna love us for it, but it's not gonna be like, oh my God, it, you know. 677 00:38:22,321 --> 00:38:24,511 People outside this community are gonna fucking love it. 678 00:38:24,511 --> 00:38:24,961 No, no, no. 679 00:38:24,961 --> 00:38:30,571 This is a pure marketing play where you identify a niche, uh, community that 680 00:38:30,571 --> 00:38:35,701 you see has enough traction so that you make a marketing decision internally 681 00:38:35,971 --> 00:38:39,991 and say, we're gonna do something for this community specifically. 682 00:38:41,006 --> 00:38:41,846 To pander to them. 683 00:38:42,326 --> 00:38:45,446 And that's what stake, uh, steak and Shake are, are doing. 684 00:38:45,446 --> 00:38:49,376 That's what a lot of, a lot of, um, nation states have been doing. 685 00:38:49,376 --> 00:38:50,126 Like El Salvador. 686 00:38:50,546 --> 00:38:53,246 It's, it's, it's a pandering to a community that it, we 687 00:38:53,246 --> 00:38:55,196 are a community of enough. 688 00:38:55,496 --> 00:38:59,666 Like we have a critical mass that any anybody from the outside, they 689 00:38:59,671 --> 00:39:03,236 wanna like, Hey, shall we do a Bitcoin, uh, marketing campaign? 690 00:39:03,266 --> 00:39:05,786 Okay, yeah, we should because there's enough people. 691 00:39:06,353 --> 00:39:10,973 Speaker: Need a way to sign, verify and secure your Bitcoin Australia's 692 00:39:10,973 --> 00:39:12,563 one-stop shop for Bitcoiners. 693 00:39:12,713 --> 00:39:17,153 Has you covered from signing devices, nodes, and backup solutions? 694 00:39:17,453 --> 00:39:22,478 To bid access day decor and apparel, visit shop bitcoin.com au. 695 00:39:26,033 --> 00:39:29,603 Fernando: So the same way that, uh, businesses are. 696 00:39:30,443 --> 00:39:34,433 Pandering to Bitcoin communities is also something that we're seeing happening in 697 00:39:34,433 --> 00:39:40,853 politics with, uh, you know, congress, uh, women or congress men, um, you know, 698 00:39:40,883 --> 00:39:45,473 fighting for Bitcoin, uh, or nation states, uh, you know, adopting Bitcoin. 699 00:39:45,863 --> 00:39:46,763 It is for. 700 00:39:47,938 --> 00:39:53,128 Bitcoiners first, and then some other people might be on the outside looking 701 00:39:53,128 --> 00:39:54,508 in and be like, oh, this is interesting. 702 00:39:54,508 --> 00:39:55,258 Let me see what it is. 703 00:39:55,258 --> 00:39:56,968 And maybe they will become bitcoiners too. 704 00:39:57,298 --> 00:40:01,738 But I think the, the, the, the, the main goal from these companies and 705 00:40:01,738 --> 00:40:05,338 from these politicians is to get the Bitcoin or base on their side. 706 00:40:05,818 --> 00:40:10,768 Anja: The final question I had for you was just asking you, you know, with, you know, 707 00:40:10,768 --> 00:40:14,668 the increasingly fragmented world and we have all these builders in the bitcoin 708 00:40:14,668 --> 00:40:18,988 space who creating these companies and trying to obviously grow adoption and, 709 00:40:18,988 --> 00:40:20,723 and reach more people, how do you think. 710 00:40:21,563 --> 00:40:25,313 You know, they, they're going to essentially reach the masses in 711 00:40:25,313 --> 00:40:27,173 an increasingly fragmented world 712 00:40:27,233 --> 00:40:30,593 Fernando: by, uh, being hyper-focused and, uh, niching down. 713 00:40:30,773 --> 00:40:34,043 I think it's like, uh, a big, um, um. 714 00:40:34,648 --> 00:40:39,868 It's an adage where in marketing, where it's like you niche down and 715 00:40:39,868 --> 00:40:43,438 you get like a, a, a critical mass of, of, uh, users and then you can 716 00:40:43,438 --> 00:40:44,938 scale up from, from that point. 717 00:40:45,508 --> 00:40:49,828 Um, and I think that's kind of like it, like companies that are trying to 718 00:40:49,828 --> 00:40:52,918 do everything at once are gonna lose. 719 00:40:53,638 --> 00:40:59,218 Um, and they're gonna get their ass kicked by way leaner, smaller companies, 720 00:40:59,218 --> 00:41:00,868 one or two founders or whatever. 721 00:41:01,168 --> 00:41:06,868 Especially now with AI and coding being so, uh, so easy to create, 722 00:41:06,868 --> 00:41:08,218 like really nice front end. 723 00:41:09,098 --> 00:41:12,878 Uh, not, not at a protocol level obviously, but like in terms of 724 00:41:12,878 --> 00:41:17,738 creating apps and, uh, SDKs and creating libraries and stuff like 725 00:41:17,738 --> 00:41:20,828 that, um, it's, it's way easier now. 726 00:41:20,948 --> 00:41:25,448 Uh, and you see now, you know, a lot of companies that are building on arc, for 727 00:41:25,448 --> 00:41:30,788 example, are like super small, super small teams that are just in my, in my opinion, 728 00:41:30,788 --> 00:41:31,898 they're, they're doing a good job. 729 00:41:31,903 --> 00:41:35,503 They haven't gotten the traction yet, but I think the setup is, is pretty good. 730 00:41:35,953 --> 00:41:40,813 So more companies niching down on very specific things and then grabbing 731 00:41:40,813 --> 00:41:46,003 their market share and then being profitable quick so they can see what, 732 00:41:46,003 --> 00:41:47,593 what, what they're going to build next. 733 00:41:47,953 --> 00:41:51,103 I think that's, uh, going to be, uh, super important. 734 00:41:51,283 --> 00:41:52,963 And then on the, on the flip side. 735 00:41:53,098 --> 00:41:59,128 You know, big ideas, um, founders with, with big ideas that want 736 00:41:59,128 --> 00:42:00,988 to big, that want to be big. 737 00:42:01,048 --> 00:42:05,368 They, they, they need to be, uh, convincing enough, uh, to get, uh, 738 00:42:05,368 --> 00:42:09,958 real capital and be funded to really, you know, try to make some big swings, 739 00:42:10,378 --> 00:42:12,463 um, to really move, move masses. 740 00:42:12,463 --> 00:42:14,908 There's a combination of, of these things. 741 00:42:16,258 --> 00:42:19,288 Even if you're well funded or you're bootstrapped, the 742 00:42:19,288 --> 00:42:20,908 philosophy is still the same. 743 00:42:21,268 --> 00:42:24,718 People are now and in the future going to consume information and 744 00:42:24,718 --> 00:42:28,678 education online in very, very small pockets of the internet. 745 00:42:28,888 --> 00:42:31,678 So you just gotta try to dominate those small pockets. 746 00:42:31,978 --> 00:42:34,618 Uh, and then the, the, the, the total, the sum. 747 00:42:35,243 --> 00:42:40,493 Of everyone doing their part is what's going to drive adoption further, but it's 748 00:42:40,493 --> 00:42:42,893 going to be a very fragmented adoption. 749 00:42:43,133 --> 00:42:47,273 But if you take a step back and you see everything that's happening at once, 750 00:42:47,393 --> 00:42:51,503 you'll see that it is one movement, but it's just highly disorganized. 751 00:42:52,063 --> 00:42:54,133 Where everybody's just focusing on their own things. 752 00:42:54,403 --> 00:42:57,823 And then Bitcoin as a result, is going to be adopted in many different 753 00:42:57,823 --> 00:42:59,743 ways by many different people. 754 00:42:59,953 --> 00:43:03,253 And there's not gonna be one narrative that will be the true narrative anymore. 755 00:43:03,253 --> 00:43:08,293 It's gonna be many narratives, many truths, and you might, uh, disagree with 756 00:43:08,293 --> 00:43:10,273 it or not, but doesn't really matter. 757 00:43:10,333 --> 00:43:12,313 That's kind of like how the future's going to look like. 758 00:43:12,313 --> 00:43:13,543 So what can you do? 759 00:43:13,933 --> 00:43:14,023 Mm-hmm. 760 00:43:14,023 --> 00:43:15,973 You either, you either change your mind or you don't. 761 00:43:17,218 --> 00:43:20,578 Anja: Yeah, and I'm thinking about as you're speaking, if there's any kind 762 00:43:20,578 --> 00:43:24,058 of company out there that I can think of the top of my head that is like 763 00:43:24,058 --> 00:43:27,388 kind of doing like kind of an up and coming company that's doing a really 764 00:43:27,388 --> 00:43:33,208 good job of it in the Bitcoin space and nothing immediately is coming to mind. 765 00:43:33,448 --> 00:43:37,108 Do you have one, like someone that you're like, oh, they're actually 766 00:43:37,108 --> 00:43:38,398 doing really good marketing. 767 00:43:38,458 --> 00:43:40,018 Um, no one's coming to me. 768 00:43:40,228 --> 00:43:41,428 Fernando: Well, I would say. 769 00:43:42,643 --> 00:43:46,423 No, I, in, in, in terms of like the Bitcoin only, um, 770 00:43:46,483 --> 00:43:48,613 companies, uh, not really, 771 00:43:49,273 --> 00:43:49,393 Anja: but 772 00:43:50,023 --> 00:43:50,473 Fernando: I truly love 773 00:43:50,588 --> 00:43:54,223 Anja: because seeing the same people sharing the same story, kind of 774 00:43:54,223 --> 00:43:56,473 like I'm not really seeing much. 775 00:43:56,503 --> 00:43:58,153 Yeah, yeah. 776 00:43:59,353 --> 00:44:01,513 Speaker 5: Not your keys, not your coins. 777 00:44:02,053 --> 00:44:06,133 If you're holding Bitcoin, your self custody setup needs to be done right. 778 00:44:06,883 --> 00:44:11,383 Mine racks delivers paranoia grade security so that you can sleep at night 779 00:44:11,383 --> 00:44:13,423 knowing that your money is protected. 780 00:44:14,293 --> 00:44:17,173 Take control and secure your money the honest way. 781 00:44:17,563 --> 00:44:20,953 Head to mine racks.com/honest Money. 782 00:44:21,818 --> 00:44:25,298 Fernando: Now essentially building for the user that is going to 783 00:44:25,298 --> 00:44:28,658 download five different wallets on their phone and maybe use one of them 784 00:44:28,658 --> 00:44:31,688 more, and then the four, it will just gonna stay there on the phone, not 785 00:44:31,688 --> 00:44:33,698 really doing anything, just idle. 786 00:44:34,298 --> 00:44:37,568 But I think the ones that are really trying to tap into the mainstream 787 00:44:37,568 --> 00:44:43,448 culture that are trying to make, um, make, uh, Bitcoin cool is, is, 788 00:44:43,448 --> 00:44:48,728 uh, cash app a square block, that that company is fucking killing it. 789 00:44:49,028 --> 00:44:51,908 And they have also that combination of. 790 00:44:52,748 --> 00:44:57,818 Design UX brand mentality, but they're also philosophically sound. 791 00:44:58,088 --> 00:45:02,378 They are Bitcoin first, even though Jack is like reluctantly doing 792 00:45:02,378 --> 00:45:04,298 stuff on for stable coins lately. 793 00:45:04,298 --> 00:45:09,368 But they have the philosophy and the the design and to be able to master 794 00:45:09,368 --> 00:45:13,268 these two things historically in Bitcoin has been almost an impossibility. 795 00:45:13,658 --> 00:45:17,798 And to see that they have, like, they make Bitcoin only cool and relevant. 796 00:45:18,503 --> 00:45:22,613 Jack wearing a Satoshi Komodo t-shirt at the Super Bowl, that type of shit. 797 00:45:22,823 --> 00:45:24,293 That's what we need more of. 798 00:45:24,353 --> 00:45:28,943 But fortunately, one company doing that, we need more. 799 00:45:29,213 --> 00:45:30,263 So hopefully, 800 00:45:30,323 --> 00:45:30,653 Anja: yeah, 801 00:45:30,713 --> 00:45:33,653 Fernando: hopefully there's more, uh, companies that are small now that can 802 00:45:33,653 --> 00:45:39,713 grow bigger, be well, more funded, but we need to step away from, um, uh, 803 00:45:39,773 --> 00:45:41,093 the companies who wanna do everything. 804 00:45:41,183 --> 00:45:42,938 Um, we've gotta tap into the culture. 805 00:45:43,778 --> 00:45:49,358 You know, I come from the music, uh, business and, uh, I was at Universal Music 806 00:45:49,598 --> 00:45:53,858 when Torrenting, um, became a thing and kinda like disrupted the entire industry. 807 00:45:54,278 --> 00:45:56,468 The Pirate Bay, the torrents. 808 00:45:57,338 --> 00:46:00,068 They, they, they were driving the culture forward. 809 00:46:00,068 --> 00:46:03,218 They, they made, uh, this shit cool. 810 00:46:03,518 --> 00:46:09,503 And when a technology is p paired up with culture, that's the that's 811 00:46:09,503 --> 00:46:13,043 the, the, the, the, the, the t and t, that's the, that's the dy dynamite. 812 00:46:13,403 --> 00:46:18,953 And we have a culture and we have the tech, like who, who are the designers, 813 00:46:18,953 --> 00:46:23,423 who are the brand people that are able to take those two things because 814 00:46:23,423 --> 00:46:25,343 I think Cipher punk can be cool. 815 00:46:25,703 --> 00:46:31,673 It has that like, cool, dark, uh, you know, um, style that, that 816 00:46:31,823 --> 00:46:33,563 can be turned into something cool. 817 00:46:34,163 --> 00:46:38,153 And, uh, yeah, only, only Cash App and Square and Block have 818 00:46:38,153 --> 00:46:39,353 been able to crack that code. 819 00:46:39,353 --> 00:46:40,793 We need more people cracking the code. 820 00:46:40,943 --> 00:46:42,143 Anja: Yeah, absolutely. 821 00:46:42,143 --> 00:46:45,983 And I can certainly relate to what Jack is going through because this 822 00:46:45,983 --> 00:46:49,913 is so embarrassing, but even I struggle with like, how do I grow my 823 00:46:49,913 --> 00:46:52,703 podcast versus how do I stay pure? 824 00:46:54,108 --> 00:46:59,148 So I like actually refrain from even using the hashtag crypto in, in my, 825 00:46:59,148 --> 00:47:01,308 like YouTube and, and social media. 826 00:47:01,308 --> 00:47:02,508 I'm just like, what am I doing? 827 00:47:02,508 --> 00:47:06,648 Like if it's about reaching people and that's what I care about adoption, 828 00:47:06,648 --> 00:47:12,288 then I just need to get over myself and not, you know, use hashtag crypto. 829 00:47:12,288 --> 00:47:12,318 I 830 00:47:12,318 --> 00:47:13,668 Fernando: came to that conclusion myself. 831 00:47:13,908 --> 00:47:14,328 Totally. 832 00:47:14,328 --> 00:47:17,358 I came to that conclusion myself of building my business. 833 00:47:17,388 --> 00:47:20,388 Uh, I, I was Bitcoin only at the get go. 834 00:47:20,928 --> 00:47:25,028 After two months, I realized I gotta, I gotta, you know, I gotta 835 00:47:25,028 --> 00:47:26,228 bring in the other shit as well. 836 00:47:26,413 --> 00:47:34,898 I, I, I don't have, I don't track, um, Ethereum, the coin, but if JP Morgan is 837 00:47:34,898 --> 00:47:40,178 launching like a credit, uh, product on Ethereum, that is part of perception. 838 00:47:40,448 --> 00:47:46,358 So I'm bringing in the institutionalized digital assets, uh, part of it because 839 00:47:46,358 --> 00:47:50,438 it's also important to see where Bitcoin is positioned compared to, to the other. 840 00:47:50,438 --> 00:47:50,853 You don't wanna. 841 00:47:51,558 --> 00:47:58,608 You don't want to evaluate Bitcoin's, uh, temperature in isolation. 842 00:47:58,608 --> 00:48:02,088 You want to see how Bitcoin is positioned a a amongst other competitors and 843 00:48:02,088 --> 00:48:03,348 other things that is happening too. 844 00:48:03,593 --> 00:48:05,028 And, and I think that's important too. 845 00:48:05,028 --> 00:48:07,788 You need to not look at Bitcoin as an island. 846 00:48:08,268 --> 00:48:13,928 You need to look at Bitcoin as a peninsula where a lot of stuff is happening and 847 00:48:13,928 --> 00:48:19,748 uh, it's still outside like a peninsula, but it's, um, there's more to it. 848 00:48:19,748 --> 00:48:21,518 You know, it's not a stupid little island. 849 00:48:21,548 --> 00:48:24,188 There's a lot of stuff happening and we need to see, we need to 850 00:48:24,188 --> 00:48:26,528 compare Bitcoin against competitors. 851 00:48:26,558 --> 00:48:28,208 It's a competitive analysis. 852 00:48:28,208 --> 00:48:31,868 It's like marketing one-on-one, business, one-on-one, so, yeah. 853 00:48:32,813 --> 00:48:33,113 Anja: Yeah. 854 00:48:33,473 --> 00:48:38,183 I also love, I will include a link in the show notes of your LinkedIn profile 855 00:48:38,183 --> 00:48:42,143 as well, so people can add you on there as well, because the, the LinkedIn 856 00:48:42,143 --> 00:48:44,033 buyer you have is so interesting. 857 00:48:44,303 --> 00:48:48,653 I absolutely love the reading it, but yeah, I, um, I think I wanna escape 858 00:48:48,653 --> 00:48:50,663 as many technical issues as possible. 859 00:48:50,663 --> 00:48:54,983 So if you have any final words so that, you know, for wrapping up, uh, for with 860 00:48:54,983 --> 00:48:56,963 my audience, yeah, I'm happy to hear it. 861 00:48:57,113 --> 00:48:59,633 Fernando: No, I mean, uh, stay sane out there, man. 862 00:48:59,633 --> 00:49:04,628 It's, uh, going to be very hard, uh, in the future to, uh, get 863 00:49:04,628 --> 00:49:06,518 your, uh, information online. 864 00:49:06,578 --> 00:49:08,678 So choose your sources wisely. 865 00:49:08,828 --> 00:49:13,118 Um, stick to what you know, and you have to be your own, uh, 866 00:49:13,118 --> 00:49:15,878 content curator, uh, these days. 867 00:49:15,968 --> 00:49:19,598 So, um, Bitcoin is gonna be many different things in the future. 868 00:49:19,778 --> 00:49:20,468 Um. 869 00:49:21,173 --> 00:49:24,503 Make sure that you stick to what you like so that Bitcoin 870 00:49:24,503 --> 00:49:26,333 stays fun and exciting for you. 871 00:49:26,993 --> 00:49:30,533 Uh, 'cause the future is going to look very different than what it is right now. 872 00:49:30,533 --> 00:49:34,433 It's gonna see a lot of different people with a lot of different views, polarizing 873 00:49:34,433 --> 00:49:38,393 views, uh, coming into Bitcoin, and uh, you need to be okay with that. 874 00:49:38,778 --> 00:49:41,898 Uh, that's the healthy, that's the healthy attitude at least. 875 00:49:41,898 --> 00:49:43,608 So, uh, yeah, stay sane. 876 00:49:43,698 --> 00:49:46,128 Uh, online is going, going to get difficult. 877 00:49:46,938 --> 00:49:50,598 So make sure that you have your tools and your weaponry and everything 878 00:49:50,598 --> 00:49:53,598 that you need to, uh, to be able to follow this space without going crazy. 879 00:49:54,888 --> 00:49:57,948 Anja: It already is getting difficult because I'm just like, I really 880 00:49:57,948 --> 00:50:01,788 wanna book myself is for some like diving, just go under water for a bit. 881 00:50:01,788 --> 00:50:05,478 Chill out, you know, like get off the internet. 882 00:50:06,998 --> 00:50:07,748 Alright, well thank you you 883 00:50:07,748 --> 00:50:07,958 Fernando: so 884 00:50:07,958 --> 00:50:08,228 Anja: much. 885 00:50:08,233 --> 00:50:09,698 Fernando: Sometimes no, sometimes that's the only remedy. 886 00:50:09,728 --> 00:50:10,478 So yeah. 887 00:50:10,658 --> 00:50:15,758 Uh, we, we might see like a revival of, uh, offline meet space stuff 888 00:50:15,818 --> 00:50:17,798 that's can be exciting anyway. 889 00:50:17,828 --> 00:50:18,638 Anja: Yeah, I hope so. 890 00:50:18,788 --> 00:50:22,478 I do love the, the offline face-to-face meet, I say the best. 891 00:50:24,428 --> 00:50:24,878 All right, for sure. 892 00:50:24,938 --> 00:50:26,168 Thanks so much for your time. 893 00:50:26,318 --> 00:50:28,028 Fernando: Thank you so much for having me on, uh, having me on. 894 00:50:28,028 --> 00:50:30,518 It was a pleasure meeting you and, uh, having this convo. 895 00:50:30,518 --> 00:50:31,808 Hopefully we'll do around too soon. 896 00:50:32,708 --> 00:50:34,028 Anja: Yeah, absolutely. 897 00:50:34,058 --> 00:50:35,408 With better tech this time. 898 00:50:35,948 --> 00:50:36,428 Thank you. 899 00:50:37,773 --> 00:50:37,993 Fernando: Bye. 900 00:50:38,359 --> 00:50:40,849 Speaker 3: Still here you are one of the good ones. 901 00:50:41,329 --> 00:50:43,969 We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. 902 00:50:44,329 --> 00:50:48,049 If you enjoy how we cut through the noise, consider supporting us 903 00:50:48,049 --> 00:50:50,299 directly via the Lightning QR code. 904 00:50:50,809 --> 00:50:52,849 Got a question or a thought to share? 905 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:54,589 Comments are wide open. 906 00:50:54,889 --> 00:50:56,119 We'd love to hear from you. 907 00:50:56,229 --> 00:51:01,509 For bonus content and updates, follow us on socials at Honest Money Show. 908 00:51:02,559 --> 00:51:07,389 Until next week, take care of yourself and your money and stay decentralized.