WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.660 Michele: Hey, everyone. 00:00:00.899 --> 00:00:02.220 Welcome back to software social. 00:00:02.220 --> 00:00:07.920 I am so excited to have a longtime listener, first time caller with 00:00:07.950 --> 00:00:12.870 us today to talk about, the projects he has going on. 00:00:13.290 --> 00:00:16.500 Um, you've probably come across him on Twitter. 00:00:16.730 --> 00:00:18.020 Vic Vijaya kumar. 00:00:18.050 --> 00:00:20.270 Thank you so much for coming on software social today. 00:00:21.470 --> 00:00:22.850 Vic: Thank you for having me. 00:00:22.910 --> 00:00:23.840 This is fun. 00:00:24.098 --> 00:00:24.698 Michele: So, 00:00:25.018 --> 00:00:25.558 Vic: to this. 00:00:26.318 --> 00:00:27.338 Michele: So me too. 00:00:27.458 --> 00:00:30.661 So we actually, we talked like a year ago, right? 00:00:30.661 --> 00:00:34.891 Cause you were one of the interviews I did for my book. 00:00:35.241 --> 00:00:39.157 And we talked a little bit about how you, I guess for some context, I 00:00:39.157 --> 00:00:40.297 guess we should, we should set this. 00:00:40.537 --> 00:00:42.607 So you have a full-time job that's is that right? 00:00:43.327 --> 00:00:45.547 Vic: That's right, I am a staff engineer at event bright. 00:00:46.047 --> 00:00:46.417 Michele: Awesome. 00:00:46.425 --> 00:00:50.085 You also have a side project called every Oak, which is 00:00:50.115 --> 00:00:51.915 like software for preschools. 00:00:51.975 --> 00:00:52.575 Is that right? 00:00:52.980 --> 00:00:57.270 Vic: Yeah, I it's a preschool that my kids go to, went to. 00:00:57.570 --> 00:01:00.660 One goes to, I help them with their admissions and stuff. 00:01:01.485 --> 00:01:04.065 Michele: And now you're managing software for them forever. 00:01:04.925 --> 00:01:05.675 Vic: Exactly. 00:01:05.675 --> 00:01:07.115 There's no getting away from this. 00:01:07.415 --> 00:01:07.805 It's 00:01:08.205 --> 00:01:10.365 Michele: It's like the worst PTA ever. 00:01:10.555 --> 00:01:11.015 Vic: Exactly. 00:01:11.015 --> 00:01:12.065 I'm the F I'm forever. 00:01:12.065 --> 00:01:15.155 Like the computer knowing parent, you know. 00:01:16.275 --> 00:01:16.965 Michele: Oh, gosh. 00:01:16.995 --> 00:01:17.385 Okay, well. 00:01:17.585 --> 00:01:18.875 Vic: help them with their emails. 00:01:19.155 --> 00:01:21.135 Michele: Oh, do you set up their wifi to like, 00:01:21.635 --> 00:01:25.445 Vic: Thankfully now, but you know, it's, it's only a short call away anytime. 00:01:26.095 --> 00:01:31.195 Michele: Um, so then you also recently started building another SAS in 00:01:31.195 --> 00:01:38.015 public called Hey texting, which I understand is like a shared inbox for 00:01:39.070 --> 00:01:42.940 SMS text, like if you're texting with customers and stuff, is that right? 00:01:43.440 --> 00:01:45.780 fun, but for text messages. 00:01:47.060 --> 00:01:50.310 Vic: I mean, yeah, that's basically it that's my that's going to be my elevator. 00:01:51.080 --> 00:01:51.470 Michele: Okay. 00:01:51.890 --> 00:01:53.480 So what led to that? 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:54.500 Like why. 00:01:55.563 --> 00:01:57.033 Vic: We're not talking about the preschool anymore, right? 00:01:57.033 --> 00:01:57.603 We're talking about, hey. 00:01:57.748 --> 00:02:00.658 Michele: No, no, it feels, it feels pretty clear that you got roped into like 00:02:00.658 --> 00:02:02.668 being the it person for your preschool. 00:02:02.668 --> 00:02:05.488 And like, there's like, you know, this can be a thing, like I can do this. 00:02:05.488 --> 00:02:06.120 And yeah. 00:02:06.180 --> 00:02:07.170 Let's talk about hey texting. 00:02:07.675 --> 00:02:08.035 Vic: Sure. 00:02:08.065 --> 00:02:11.035 So uh, this actually ties back to the preschool. 00:02:11.730 --> 00:02:12.000 Michele: Oh no. 00:02:12.010 --> 00:02:14.340 Are they sending you so many text messages and you're like, I have 00:02:14.340 --> 00:02:15.420 to have a way to manage this. 00:02:15.910 --> 00:02:18.100 Vic: Yeah, because you know, schools do this thing right. 00:02:18.100 --> 00:02:21.400 Where they're like, you know, give us one number and they will text 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:24.850 that number and say, carpool is going to take a long time today. 00:02:24.850 --> 00:02:29.650 Or, you know, today the bus is going to be late or there's no bus route, come 00:02:29.650 --> 00:02:31.330 pick up your kids is a thing they will do. 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:34.930 But they will message, you know, one person and that person's out getting 00:02:34.930 --> 00:02:38.320 a haircut or something and so this started to get really annoying. 00:02:38.320 --> 00:02:40.960 And so I was like, I mean, surely there's gotta be a way where you 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:44.535 just have, you know, one, it kind of like a, like an email address 00:02:44.535 --> 00:02:45.465 that goes to multiple people. 00:02:45.735 --> 00:02:49.815 I wanted to a text, you know, a cell phone number that forwarded. 00:02:50.140 --> 00:02:53.310 Michele: Like, like where they sending the text message, like to the room 00:02:53.310 --> 00:02:55.920 parent, for example, I mean like, so people who don't have kids, I remind 00:02:55.920 --> 00:02:58.200 kids in the us are going to be like, what the heck are they talking about? 00:02:58.470 --> 00:03:02.460 But like, there's usually like one parent in the class who is the like 00:03:02.710 --> 00:03:06.650 representative of the parents and also has to, you know, like organize the Halloween 00:03:06.650 --> 00:03:07.970 party and everything for the class. 00:03:08.250 --> 00:03:13.110 Would they like that person, that there was a school bus delay or 00:03:13.110 --> 00:03:17.420 was it like they text one of the parents, but you actually need both. 00:03:17.475 --> 00:03:18.465 Vic: one of the Yeah. 00:03:18.465 --> 00:03:20.115 they texted one of the parents. 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:22.950 Michele: Of the parents in the class or like one of the parents for each child. 00:03:23.175 --> 00:03:24.555 Vic: One of the parents for each child. 00:03:24.585 --> 00:03:28.815 So basically they have like a contact email and a contact phone number 00:03:28.815 --> 00:03:30.975 for each parent, for each child. 00:03:31.095 --> 00:03:31.425 Yeah. 00:03:31.695 --> 00:03:34.005 And so the email I just want is simple. 00:03:34.005 --> 00:03:37.185 I just give them a shared email address that we have that forwards to both of us. 00:03:37.455 --> 00:03:37.755 Great. 00:03:38.085 --> 00:03:41.805 You know, so now we get to see when the, you know, in the bake sales are happening 00:03:41.805 --> 00:03:44.775 or whatever, but then they one of us. 00:03:44.835 --> 00:03:51.091 I mean, and we, I mean, I like to be as involved in my kids lives as possible. 00:03:51.091 --> 00:03:55.591 So I will, you know, I do drop off and stuff often, but it's like, they just 00:03:55.771 --> 00:03:58.531 text, my wife, will be uh, you know, away. 00:03:58.921 --> 00:03:59.311 So then. 00:04:00.091 --> 00:04:00.721 I was like, you know what? 00:04:00.751 --> 00:04:03.391 They used to be a thing for this weirdly enough, it used to be called 00:04:03.391 --> 00:04:06.031 grand central and then Google bought it and turned it into Google voice 00:04:06.061 --> 00:04:07.951 and then sort of abandoned it. 00:04:08.551 --> 00:04:10.171 Um, It might even still be there. 00:04:10.171 --> 00:04:10.471 I don't know. 00:04:10.681 --> 00:04:12.031 So I made this thing though. 00:04:12.031 --> 00:04:16.711 Originally was just like, use the Twilio API and you could text it and it 00:04:16.711 --> 00:04:18.631 would forward the text to both parents. 00:04:18.738 --> 00:04:22.188 And then we were like, but what if we need to text back? 00:04:22.248 --> 00:04:24.798 Because they use an app on their side, which texts us. 00:04:24.798 --> 00:04:28.836 And sometimes we need to reply back to the teachers that, we got this message. 00:04:28.836 --> 00:04:29.946 We will come get our kid. 00:04:30.606 --> 00:04:32.166 And so I figured, Okay. 00:04:32.166 --> 00:04:34.866 I'll, you know, I guess I'll build an interface for us to 00:04:34.866 --> 00:04:36.156 be able to write back to them. 00:04:36.696 --> 00:04:40.656 And the next thing you know, I have, you know, a web app basically that is 00:04:40.656 --> 00:04:44.496 doing a real-time processing of text messages going in and out using webhooks. 00:04:45.306 --> 00:04:48.276 And I'm like, well, I may as well at this point, just add Stripe 00:04:48.276 --> 00:04:49.596 in an authentication system. 00:04:49.596 --> 00:04:53.186 And, and, you know, and next thing you know, you have hey 00:04:55.191 --> 00:04:56.631 Michele: Do you have customers? 00:04:57.433 --> 00:04:58.026 Vic: I do not. 00:04:58.026 --> 00:04:59.406 I am the only customer. 00:04:59.506 --> 00:05:00.976 Well, actually this is funny. 00:05:01.156 --> 00:05:06.186 Uh, I give about this last night but I went to a conference last week and 00:05:06.186 --> 00:05:09.212 I was sitting next to someone and he said something like, what have 00:05:09.212 --> 00:05:10.052 you been working on or whatever? 00:05:10.052 --> 00:05:12.782 And I said, hey, I just launched this micro SaaS call hey texting. 00:05:12.782 --> 00:05:15.092 And he went to, and he said, this is exactly what I need. 00:05:15.092 --> 00:05:16.322 I'm going to sign up for It right now. 00:05:16.412 --> 00:05:20.892 And then, uh, the whole lot of pressure, I felt a whole lot of guilt that he 00:05:20.892 --> 00:05:22.152 felt pressured to signing up for it. 00:05:22.152 --> 00:05:23.262 So I said, no, don't do that. 00:05:23.442 --> 00:05:24.072 Don't pay for it. 00:05:24.102 --> 00:05:25.212 It's the beta product. 00:05:25.392 --> 00:05:25.962 Michele: It was terrible. 00:05:25.962 --> 00:05:26.712 Please don't know. 00:05:27.522 --> 00:05:28.122 Vic: Don't do it. 00:05:28.842 --> 00:05:29.322 Then. 00:05:29.412 --> 00:05:31.572 It's like, ah, why did I do that? 00:05:31.662 --> 00:05:35.032 And, but, you know, And I say, you know what? 00:05:35.092 --> 00:05:38.172 I would love for you to use this, but I'm just going to give you, just like a 00:05:38.172 --> 00:05:40.512 free, you know, Stripe coupon or whatever. 00:05:40.512 --> 00:05:42.522 So you can use it until, you know, give me feedback. 00:05:43.122 --> 00:05:45.925 And then I tweeted about this whole thing. 00:05:46.375 --> 00:05:49.585 And then I've had several people sign up this. 00:05:50.535 --> 00:05:52.345 Uh, They're not, paying members yet. 00:05:52.675 --> 00:05:53.095 And all right. 00:05:53.095 --> 00:05:56.965 It's like this weird building in public, marketing, and public 00:05:56.995 --> 00:05:58.315 tweeting, in public about a thing. 00:05:58.705 --> 00:06:02.985 But even when you tweet your failures, people go, Oh, why did you do that? 00:06:02.985 --> 00:06:04.215 That was a terrible thing. 00:06:04.305 --> 00:06:05.265 Also the exciting. 00:06:06.285 --> 00:06:09.795 So I've had multiple people sign up, you know, in the last actually I would say 00:06:09.795 --> 00:06:15.255 15 minutes ago before we're recording this podcast, and I haven't figured out 00:06:15.255 --> 00:06:16.845 yet if they are, they're paying for it. 00:06:16.875 --> 00:06:18.045 It's not a freemium product. 00:06:18.735 --> 00:06:22.505 You have to pay for it to be able to use it because the cost 00:06:22.505 --> 00:06:23.865 me money when people use it. 00:06:24.375 --> 00:06:24.855 Michele: Right. 00:06:24.885 --> 00:06:26.265 Oh, because you're using a Cleo API. 00:06:26.265 --> 00:06:27.375 So each text message. 00:06:27.405 --> 00:06:28.125 Vic: Exactly. 00:06:28.695 --> 00:06:29.235 Exactly. 00:06:29.235 --> 00:06:32.525 So I've had, two other people sign up this morning and I need to just 00:06:32.525 --> 00:06:34.235 make sure what's going on with that. 00:06:34.235 --> 00:06:36.695 I just get BCC when they get their welcome emails. 00:06:36.695 --> 00:06:37.985 So that's why I know they signed up. 00:06:38.983 --> 00:06:41.213 Michele: Well, okay, so there we have it, you know, we said we're not a 00:06:41.213 --> 00:06:46.193 podcast you come to for, you know, your annual top 10 tips on SAS marketing. 00:06:46.193 --> 00:06:51.323 But here you are, there is a concrete SAS marketing tip, right there. 00:06:51.863 --> 00:06:53.213 Show people your product. 00:06:53.938 --> 00:06:55.288 Don't let them sign up. 00:06:55.378 --> 00:06:58.828 If they do somehow still sign up, tell them it's terrible. 00:06:59.158 --> 00:07:01.498 And then if they offer to pay, you don't let them. 00:07:01.918 --> 00:07:04.138 Three highly actionable things. 00:07:04.138 --> 00:07:06.088 Basically reverse psychology, right? 00:07:06.118 --> 00:07:09.688 Like I have this product and now you can't, sign up for it, but like. 00:07:11.848 --> 00:07:14.518 Vic: Yeah, this is just going to get people to do more and more of it. 00:07:14.628 --> 00:07:17.058 Michele: Don't sign up for Vic's service. 00:07:17.058 --> 00:07:17.598 Seriously. 00:07:17.598 --> 00:07:20.118 If you're listening, don't just stop. 00:07:20.118 --> 00:07:21.228 Don't even think about it. 00:07:21.288 --> 00:07:25.728 Um, I mean, I feel like that's also so relatable is like you spend all this 00:07:25.728 --> 00:07:29.998 time building something and you're like, oh my God, is anyone going to buy it? 00:07:29.998 --> 00:07:31.768 Why am I spending all this time for nothing? 00:07:31.768 --> 00:07:34.348 Like, and even something you like needed yourself, you're kind of 00:07:34.348 --> 00:07:37.168 like, oh, but I've done all this work to do a Stripe and, you know, user 00:07:37.168 --> 00:07:38.128 administration, all this kinda stuff. 00:07:38.428 --> 00:07:41.544 And then someone actually signs up and you're like no, it's awful. 00:07:41.604 --> 00:07:43.374 Don't like, it's terrible. 00:07:43.794 --> 00:07:45.174 Like, why would you do that? 00:07:45.234 --> 00:07:46.494 What is wrong with you? 00:07:47.594 --> 00:07:50.034 Vic: I mean, I thought it was a huge leap for me to, you 00:07:50.034 --> 00:07:51.434 know, push it to production. 00:07:51.704 --> 00:07:55.684 And, you know, I, did tweet about that and then, you know, no one signed up and I was 00:07:55.684 --> 00:07:59.414 very glad that they didn't sign up 'cause. 00:07:59.414 --> 00:08:01.214 I was like, you know, there's, weird issues here. 00:08:01.214 --> 00:08:04.694 You know, it doesn't do like, you have to hit refresh when you go to it, 00:08:04.694 --> 00:08:08.504 because it doesn't automatically show new text messages as they show up. 00:08:08.534 --> 00:08:09.824 I'm so glad they're not signing up. 00:08:10.484 --> 00:08:14.504 And then when someone actually wanted to give me money, I'm like, no, don't do it. 00:08:14.534 --> 00:08:15.254 It's not ready yet. 00:08:16.124 --> 00:08:20.054 Michele: Put that wallet down uh, is over, you know, it reminds me of like 00:08:20.054 --> 00:08:24.284 when we launched Geocodio, we are like, nobody's going to pay for this. 00:08:24.294 --> 00:08:25.314 This is terrible. 00:08:25.644 --> 00:08:30.144 And we were so surprised that anyone wanted to pay for it. 00:08:30.144 --> 00:08:34.034 That like we had, Stripe set up, but we hadn't actually written the 00:08:34.034 --> 00:08:38.184 code to tell Stripe to charge people by the time the D like, cause we 00:08:38.184 --> 00:08:39.654 were doing it once a month charges. 00:08:40.224 --> 00:08:43.554 And we're like, oh, we told people we're going to charge them today, but we 00:08:43.554 --> 00:08:46.314 didn't expect to have anyone to charge. 00:08:47.649 --> 00:08:48.219 Like crap. 00:08:48.219 --> 00:08:51.369 We need to like write this code right now, charge them before the day is out. 00:08:51.369 --> 00:08:51.729 It was. 00:08:53.219 --> 00:08:57.259 Vic: It's weird, the anxieties you discover when 00:08:57.259 --> 00:08:58.549 something is about to happen. 00:08:59.569 --> 00:09:02.539 I would have told you that, yeah, of course, I want people to sign up for this. 00:09:02.539 --> 00:09:06.049 I want people to give me money and then when this person was about 00:09:06.049 --> 00:09:07.849 to do it, I got really anxious. 00:09:07.849 --> 00:09:10.759 They were going to discover the bugs that I've just tolerated. 00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:12.109 That I was fine with. 00:09:12.607 --> 00:09:14.167 But I didn't want them to find them. 00:09:14.802 --> 00:09:17.112 Michele: Yeah, it's almost like you're going to get like, 00:09:17.612 --> 00:09:19.592 called out for it, I guess. 00:09:19.622 --> 00:09:20.012 Right. 00:09:20.012 --> 00:09:22.692 Like know. 00:09:22.947 --> 00:09:26.487 Vic: Yeah, it's only the reply to this tweet saying, you know, don't. 00:09:26.487 --> 00:09:27.777 You should just let them sign up. 00:09:27.807 --> 00:09:31.437 And if they hate it, refund them their money or it's entirely 00:09:31.437 --> 00:09:32.757 possible, they actually like it. 00:09:33.117 --> 00:09:33.447 Like. 00:09:34.452 --> 00:09:35.052 Okay. 00:09:35.292 --> 00:09:38.772 That's a sort of way of looking at things that they might like it. 00:09:39.252 --> 00:09:39.762 Michele: Yeah. 00:09:40.242 --> 00:09:45.422 I mean, you know, I, almost feel like, you know, so I know this is a thing for 00:09:45.482 --> 00:09:50.822 people with ADHD, they call it rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is like the. 00:09:51.722 --> 00:09:55.039 Um, yeah, there's kind of like overwhelming fear basically 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:56.589 of rejection and criticism. 00:09:56.589 --> 00:10:02.949 I think for people who are, neurodivergent like, we're just so used to be criticized 00:10:02.949 --> 00:10:05.709 as kids and, you know, it'd be like, pay attention, sit still, like, don't do that. 00:10:05.709 --> 00:10:06.159 Don't do that. 00:10:06.159 --> 00:10:07.449 Why are you bouncing off the walls? 00:10:07.449 --> 00:10:10.199 We're like just constantly criticized that. 00:10:10.239 --> 00:10:12.549 I think in, especially like, as it comes to like business where 00:10:12.549 --> 00:10:15.699 like, you know, it's like, oh no, it's not good enough yet. 00:10:15.699 --> 00:10:18.174 I'm going to, criticized again. 00:10:18.235 --> 00:10:19.467 It doesn't have every feature yet. 00:10:19.467 --> 00:10:20.427 You can't pay for it yet. 00:10:20.427 --> 00:10:21.237 It's not good enough. 00:10:21.267 --> 00:10:21.507 Right? 00:10:21.507 --> 00:10:24.163 Because like, we have this, I'm just speaking for myself personally. 00:10:24.163 --> 00:10:28.353 Like we have this deeply rooted feeling of things not being good enough. 00:10:28.773 --> 00:10:29.193 Right. 00:10:29.223 --> 00:10:33.033 And then like overcoming that and like, realizing like somebody can 00:10:33.033 --> 00:10:36.123 pay for something, even when I don't think it's good enough or I don't 00:10:36.123 --> 00:10:38.173 think it's feature complete, is okay. 00:10:38.173 --> 00:10:41.023 Like we didn't have the ability for someone to reset their own password for 00:10:41.023 --> 00:10:45.253 like six months, after we launched, like, like there's all these like base. 00:10:45.283 --> 00:10:45.493 Yeah. 00:10:45.493 --> 00:10:48.775 There's all these like basic things are about how it might work, that we feel 00:10:48.775 --> 00:10:51.355 like we have to have, we throw those barriers in front of us because we 00:10:51.355 --> 00:10:54.505 don't want that feeling of rejection. 00:10:55.058 --> 00:10:56.618 Vic: So a funny thing there. 00:10:56.678 --> 00:11:01.157 So Every Oak, which is my other thing that is like actually used a 00:11:02.047 --> 00:11:06.907 by hundreds of parents who are very happy and they never write to me to 00:11:06.907 --> 00:11:07.987 tell me that anything's wrong with it. 00:11:08.377 --> 00:11:10.777 It's still doesn't have a change password feature. 00:11:10.927 --> 00:11:13.687 It just doesn't exist because I kept kicking the cane down the 00:11:13.687 --> 00:11:15.817 road because it's like, I don't want to deal with this right now. 00:11:16.357 --> 00:11:17.347 I'm just going to launch. 00:11:17.407 --> 00:11:19.147 It still doesn't have a change password feature. 00:11:19.287 --> 00:11:23.081 A fun thing I discovered with that was that I was just kind 00:11:23.081 --> 00:11:24.635 of looking at postmark emails. 00:11:25.510 --> 00:11:29.620 And I wouldn't notice that during, you know, sort of, I know we're still in 00:11:29.620 --> 00:11:34.060 a pandemic, but really in the like six months ago, when the school used to 00:11:34.060 --> 00:11:36.160 require status checks for everybody. 00:11:36.160 --> 00:11:39.940 Every kid that got dropped off, you'd have to open up the website and you'd 00:11:39.940 --> 00:11:42.460 have to fill out this form that said, you know, they don't have a fever, but 00:11:42.460 --> 00:11:45.150 while they don't have know they're not vomiting or anything like that, you'd 00:11:45.150 --> 00:11:48.010 have to fill out this form and you have to log in, so we knew who your kid was. 00:11:48.670 --> 00:11:53.150 And that would notice that, roughly at carpool time, there was always a 00:11:53.150 --> 00:11:55.160 huge spike of emails that went out. 00:11:55.760 --> 00:11:57.440 And I was like, that's really weird. 00:11:57.650 --> 00:11:58.910 You're not emailing anybody. 00:11:58.910 --> 00:11:59.580 Why is this happening? 00:11:59.580 --> 00:11:59.850 Right. 00:11:59.880 --> 00:12:05.010 And I went in and looked at all these emails and parents had found a really 00:12:05.010 --> 00:12:09.630 weird way of using the site, which is that they no one remembered their password. 00:12:10.131 --> 00:12:13.551 And they had probably, I don't know, probably set a random password. 00:12:13.551 --> 00:12:15.771 They couldn't reset it, but they never wrote to me. 00:12:15.981 --> 00:12:20.781 So what they would do is at carpool, they would ask for a magic link to log 00:12:20.781 --> 00:12:26.841 into the site and then they would use the magic link to go in and fill out the form. 00:12:27.591 --> 00:12:29.451 And then they would just do it again the next day. 00:12:30.351 --> 00:12:34.641 And so I had, we were sending just hundreds of emails every morning to just 00:12:34.641 --> 00:12:36.171 people using the magic link feature. 00:12:36.171 --> 00:12:38.841 And they probably thought of this as a feature, not a bug. 00:12:39.391 --> 00:12:39.871 Michele: Right. 00:12:39.946 --> 00:12:42.226 Vic: don't have to remember a password it's passwordless login. 00:12:43.256 --> 00:12:47.786 The things that we think are like incomplete features are 00:12:47.786 --> 00:12:50.096 probably things that other people think are complete features. 00:12:51.150 --> 00:12:53.190 Michele: Yeah, I guess it was cause there's like some services where you, 00:12:53.280 --> 00:12:56.400 like, I think for some of my notion accounts, I don't have a password. 00:12:56.400 --> 00:12:57.570 I never know which ones. 00:12:57.656 --> 00:13:03.809 So you did build a magic link thing though, Really, but like this basic 00:13:03.809 --> 00:13:08.609 thing, like resetting a password or changing your username or, you know, like 00:13:08.609 --> 00:13:12.179 in our case, when we launched Geocodio, actually placing the point on someone's 00:13:12.179 --> 00:13:14.439 house, we didn't actually do that. 00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:18.738 You know, it was in the middle of the street in front of their house at best. 00:13:18.757 --> 00:13:22.747 So it's, I, I'm curious, when you look at Hey texting and you're 00:13:22.747 --> 00:13:25.297 like, this isn't good enough for anyone to sign up for it yet. 00:13:25.347 --> 00:13:28.227 You know, I've got the equivalent of like my dirty laundry strewn all over 00:13:28.227 --> 00:13:29.577 the floor and there's a broken window. 00:13:29.684 --> 00:13:35.059 What are those things that you feel, if you fix them, you 00:13:35.059 --> 00:13:36.709 would deserve to be for it. 00:13:36.753 --> 00:13:37.486 Vic: Let's see. 00:13:37.537 --> 00:13:40.031 I had a few people actually not text me. 00:13:40.031 --> 00:13:43.677 They'd been DM-ing me on Twitter to say, Hey, this is really cool. 00:13:43.723 --> 00:13:48.193 Is there a plan for X and those features so far are I would love 00:13:48.193 --> 00:13:49.963 a, I mean, here's the thing, right? 00:13:49.993 --> 00:13:52.903 These are missing features they see, but there's all the secret 00:13:52.903 --> 00:13:55.993 missing features that I have in my head that I know don't work. 00:13:56.053 --> 00:13:56.383 Right. 00:13:57.113 --> 00:14:00.863 So for example, there is currently no, and I just thought about this. 00:14:00.893 --> 00:14:04.463 There's currently no self-service way to buy a phone number. 00:14:04.963 --> 00:14:06.073 And I just realized that. 00:14:06.827 --> 00:14:09.917 So, you know, they sign up on the website and I currently 00:14:09.917 --> 00:14:11.417 just assign them a phone number. 00:14:11.417 --> 00:14:13.757 The minute they pay, I just assign them a random phone number. 00:14:14.147 --> 00:14:17.297 And there's no way for them to look for a vanity number or anything like that. 00:14:17.327 --> 00:14:19.037 And most people would probably find with that. 00:14:19.457 --> 00:14:20.537 Yeah, they're probably totally fine with it. 00:14:20.847 --> 00:14:25.190 Someone told me that they would love to be able to have an address 00:14:25.190 --> 00:14:27.830 book on the site that they could import their contacts into. 00:14:28.580 --> 00:14:30.970 Instead of right now, you just, you have to type in a whole phone. 00:14:31.750 --> 00:14:34.720 And similarly, when a message comes in, it tells you what the number is. 00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:36.220 It doesn't tell you who the person is. 00:14:36.910 --> 00:14:39.100 So I said, I was like, okay, that's a cool feature. 00:14:39.160 --> 00:14:40.540 That's something that I use. 00:14:41.093 --> 00:14:44.843 I just remember everyone's phone numbers, so it's not something I currently 00:14:44.843 --> 00:14:46.673 actively need, but that's a cool feature. 00:14:47.063 --> 00:14:52.523 And then I spoke to a friend yesterday who I, you know, I was telling him, oh, that 00:14:52.523 --> 00:14:54.143 thing that I was working on is finally. 00:14:55.243 --> 00:15:01.453 And he said, oh, can I have a feature where I can push a button on my 00:15:01.453 --> 00:15:05.053 stream deck, and it will send an annoying text message to my wife. 00:15:05.953 --> 00:15:06.853 I said, okay. 00:15:07.663 --> 00:15:09.703 It seems why does he need to do that? 00:15:09.763 --> 00:15:15.333 I don't want to ask questions about the exact place of their marriage, but it's 00:15:15.333 --> 00:15:20.743 sounds like I was like, so it sounds like you would like API access so that you can. 00:15:21.748 --> 00:15:27.568 You would like to send the text message to someone it's like, I can. 00:15:27.928 --> 00:15:30.448 Michele: That's like a real customer energy interview, 00:15:30.448 --> 00:15:31.588 like you just do right there. 00:15:31.588 --> 00:15:34.168 Like someone says, I want to be able to send my wife and I knowing text 00:15:34.168 --> 00:15:37.018 message, and you can rephrase that. 00:15:37.018 --> 00:15:42.141 Not as, so it sounds like you need counseling and instead you go, so it 00:15:42.321 --> 00:15:46.611 sounds like you want API access, right? 00:15:46.691 --> 00:15:48.671 But that's kind of the underlying need there. 00:15:48.671 --> 00:15:48.971 Right? 00:15:48.971 --> 00:15:49.151 Like 00:15:49.151 --> 00:15:54.011 he wants to build his own little thing on top of it, which is API access. 00:15:54.536 --> 00:15:54.956 Vic: Yeah. 00:15:55.016 --> 00:15:57.806 I was like, okay, so that's, you know, you have a stream deck, you want to 00:15:57.806 --> 00:16:01.226 push a button and I know that it's going to make, possibly make a curl call. 00:16:01.226 --> 00:16:01.526 Okay. 00:16:01.526 --> 00:16:06.386 I guess I can create an API for it, which is actually two people now who have said, 00:16:06.626 --> 00:16:10.556 I would love to have API access to this, so we don't even have to use your UI. 00:16:10.586 --> 00:16:12.536 And I'm like, okay, that's nice. 00:16:12.536 --> 00:16:15.026 Cause I just spent all this time building this really beautiful user 00:16:15.026 --> 00:16:17.096 interface that no one cares about. 00:16:17.396 --> 00:16:21.176 They just want underlying access to be able to send and receive. 00:16:21.981 --> 00:16:22.701 That's nice. 00:16:22.821 --> 00:16:24.501 Michele: That great when you spend time on something 00:16:25.371 --> 00:16:26.631 Vic: It's so pretty too. 00:16:26.881 --> 00:16:30.691 Yeah, it mimics the iMessage interface on, you know, if you have an iPhone, 00:16:30.961 --> 00:16:33.541 the beautiful bubbles, no one cares. 00:16:33.571 --> 00:16:34.681 They're like, cool. 00:16:34.681 --> 00:16:36.451 Can I use curl to send messages? 00:16:36.841 --> 00:16:37.171 Okay. 00:16:37.861 --> 00:16:41.311 Michele: So what is the other stuff that's like in the back of 00:16:41.311 --> 00:16:45.481 your head is the secret missing stuff that nobody has actually. 00:16:46.484 --> 00:16:47.234 Vic: What else? 00:16:47.295 --> 00:16:50.002 I mean, we talked about the inability to change passwords. 00:16:50.032 --> 00:16:50.862 That's okay. 00:16:50.862 --> 00:16:51.492 I guess, 00:16:51.842 --> 00:16:53.612 Michele: But has anyone asked you to change their password? 00:16:54.122 --> 00:16:57.086 Vic: No, I mean, no, there's like two or three users, right. 00:16:57.086 --> 00:16:59.816 And no one is asked to change their passwords and they they're 00:16:59.816 --> 00:17:03.326 both using login with Twitter, so they don't even care. 00:17:03.526 --> 00:17:03.766 Michele: Okay. 00:17:03.766 --> 00:17:07.486 So like you say that you don't have password reset, but you have provided 00:17:07.516 --> 00:17:11.716 other ways in your services to access it without resetting your password. 00:17:11.716 --> 00:17:15.826 Because like honestly, no one actually wants to, or really 00:17:15.826 --> 00:17:17.296 can remember a password. 00:17:17.296 --> 00:17:20.497 I mean, in this day and age, like two factoring into stuff and everything. 00:17:20.497 --> 00:17:23.407 So if you can use login through Twitter, login through GitHub, 00:17:23.437 --> 00:17:26.167 Google, whatever, like, you know, there's risks involved with that. 00:17:26.217 --> 00:17:31.101 If that goes down, which has happened, but like, that seems actually a pretty 00:17:31.131 --> 00:17:35.971 reasonable, approach on your side so that you didn't have to build, you know, 00:17:36.001 --> 00:17:38.971 user management and and stuff like that. 00:17:39.472 --> 00:17:39.832 Vic: Okay. 00:17:39.882 --> 00:17:41.712 I like how you reframe this as a feature. 00:17:42.322 --> 00:17:42.802 Yeah. 00:17:42.992 --> 00:17:46.082 Michele: It was a smart decision on your part, not an oversight. 00:17:46.431 --> 00:17:48.411 Vic: That is what I will put in the, oh, I don't have a 00:17:48.411 --> 00:17:50.451 privacy policy or any of that. 00:17:50.881 --> 00:17:55.141 My legal pages do not exist, which is a, just a thing I need to fix. 00:17:55.961 --> 00:17:59.651 I should probably just copy over what I have on every Oak, which themselves 00:17:59.651 --> 00:18:03.161 were a fork of what, you know, automatic, the WordPress people have. 00:18:03.507 --> 00:18:07.334 Um, oh, They have like an open source repo where they say here, take this. 00:18:07.469 --> 00:18:08.519 Michele: Yeah, this is what we did to. 00:18:08.767 --> 00:18:12.427 Vic: Yeah, replace the, I can replace all the places where it 00:18:12.427 --> 00:18:16.207 says WordPress and automatic with your thing, so that doesn't exist. 00:18:16.207 --> 00:18:21.757 And I feel like that is a, it's not a feature, but it's definitely a, a blocker. 00:18:22.052 --> 00:18:22.412 Michele: I think. 00:18:22.442 --> 00:18:22.802 Yeah. 00:18:23.462 --> 00:18:23.732 Yeah. 00:18:23.732 --> 00:18:27.212 I mean, especially with texts messages, I wonder if you need 00:18:27.482 --> 00:18:33.112 to have some language around like anti-spam laws and stuff like that. 00:18:33.112 --> 00:18:37.462 And especially if you're using it with schools is like, what is it called? 00:18:37.962 --> 00:18:45.131 Is FACTA the, or what is the student privacy, it's like GDPR for students 00:18:45.161 --> 00:18:46.511 that already exist in the UAS. 00:18:46.511 --> 00:18:48.011 I think, it's fact isn't it. 00:18:48.041 --> 00:18:48.941 That's something else. 00:18:49.066 --> 00:18:49.496 Vic: I mean, 00:18:49.661 --> 00:18:50.021 Michele: Um, 00:18:50.156 --> 00:18:51.326 Vic: to say FAFSA, but that's 00:18:51.521 --> 00:18:52.721 Michele: No, that's not fast. 00:18:52.781 --> 00:18:58.431 It's some other government acronym, but it's something with an F for 00:18:58.431 --> 00:19:01.521 like student privacy compliance. 00:19:01.521 --> 00:19:04.206 Vic: FACTA is fair and accurate credit transactions. 00:19:04.491 --> 00:19:04.701 Michele: Yeah. 00:19:04.701 --> 00:19:08.101 This is something that I have as an ex-pat I have to deal with, so that's 00:19:08.101 --> 00:19:09.781 why he's on the top of my head. 00:19:10.441 --> 00:19:12.811 Um, No, it's something else. 00:19:12.923 --> 00:19:16.223 Okay, well, let's this turn into the Michelle and Vic, try to remember 00:19:16.223 --> 00:19:17.573 government acronyms podcast. 00:19:18.077 --> 00:19:20.177 That's just uh, I'll have to send it to you afterwards. 00:19:20.207 --> 00:19:26.534 Um, Yeah, I think that's probably worth putting some time into, because you just 00:19:26.534 --> 00:19:29.444 want to make sure that you're, you know, you might need people to like check a box 00:19:29.948 --> 00:19:30.158 Yeah. 00:19:30.158 --> 00:19:31.178 You're compliant exactly. 00:19:31.178 --> 00:19:33.668 And says, like, I, you know, these people, I have permission 00:19:33.668 --> 00:19:34.958 to send text messages to these. 00:19:35.560 --> 00:19:35.758 Vic: Yeah. 00:19:35.788 --> 00:19:37.648 So the, I want to, definitely get those done. 00:19:38.078 --> 00:19:41.875 I'll probably have those done soon-ish since people are signing up. 00:19:41.875 --> 00:19:46.478 And then, yeah, and I wa you know, I bet you someone, and no one has 00:19:46.478 --> 00:19:49.358 asked for it yet, but someone's going to say, I want to be able to 00:19:49.358 --> 00:19:51.248 import and export things from CSV. 00:19:51.518 --> 00:19:55.165 It's almost always the first request people make which is not crucial. 00:19:55.165 --> 00:19:58.045 So I would say probably address book and the ability to self 00:19:58.045 --> 00:19:59.815 serve, purchase a number. 00:20:00.168 --> 00:20:00.738 Michele: Has anyone 00:20:00.798 --> 00:20:01.358 Vic: that's really 00:20:01.458 --> 00:20:02.568 Michele: please purchase a number though. 00:20:03.065 --> 00:20:03.745 Vic: No. 00:20:03.915 --> 00:20:04.395 Michele: Okay. 00:20:04.754 --> 00:20:07.464 So maybe, that should be on like the later list. 00:20:07.534 --> 00:20:09.154 Let's see if anyone asks for it. 00:20:09.239 --> 00:20:09.986 Vic: of the Yeah. 00:20:10.016 --> 00:20:11.108 Post someone paying for it. 00:20:11.126 --> 00:20:11.326 Okay. 00:20:11.366 --> 00:20:11.996 Post Yup. 00:20:12.146 --> 00:20:12.566 Okay. 00:20:13.526 --> 00:20:16.139 Where we're doing product management here and I like it. 00:20:16.491 --> 00:20:17.061 Michele: Sorry, it's 00:20:17.096 --> 00:20:18.416 Vic: That's really about it. 00:20:18.501 --> 00:20:19.092 Michele: default. 00:20:19.162 --> 00:20:20.812 Vic: Honestly, that's honestly it. 00:20:21.377 --> 00:20:23.717 Michele: I was so lucky I terms of use, right. 00:20:23.717 --> 00:20:27.874 In terms of using a privacy policy, making sure that people are not spamming 00:20:27.964 --> 00:20:31.684 people with children's phone numbers that they've illegally required, like acquired. 00:20:32.184 --> 00:20:35.044 Um, So that would be important. 00:20:35.111 --> 00:20:39.361 And I mean, you said people have, asked about API access, which is interesting. 00:20:39.361 --> 00:20:45.571 So I would put that above buying your own phone number as a, as a thing to explore. 00:20:45.571 --> 00:20:45.811 Right. 00:20:45.906 --> 00:20:45.996 Vic: I 00:20:45.996 --> 00:20:48.626 think so since that's actually a thing someone asked for. 00:20:48.974 --> 00:20:49.334 Yeah. 00:20:49.364 --> 00:20:50.804 privacy policy to the probably 00:20:51.284 --> 00:20:52.034 first. 00:20:52.514 --> 00:20:53.084 Yeah. 00:20:53.534 --> 00:20:53.894 Right. 00:20:53.924 --> 00:20:55.574 Right above everything else. 00:20:55.634 --> 00:21:01.244 And then the API access, since that's an actual ask and the being able to 00:21:01.274 --> 00:21:04.604 purchase and search for phone numbers is not something anyone has actually asked. 00:21:04.604 --> 00:21:06.434 It's just something that I think they want. 00:21:06.704 --> 00:21:08.534 And so I should not. 00:21:09.259 --> 00:21:10.369 Michele: Yeah, I think so. 00:21:11.644 --> 00:21:16.354 Vic: I like how we have done my PM-ing here and I've written those down. 00:21:17.414 --> 00:21:21.461 Michele: Uh, Is there anything else that you feel like it's missing that you 00:21:21.461 --> 00:21:22.831 would need in order for someone to pay. 00:21:23.581 --> 00:21:25.471 Vic: No, in fact, you can pay for. 00:21:25.501 --> 00:21:26.911 Stripe stuff already works. 00:21:26.931 --> 00:21:27.651 Michele: Well, but will you 00:21:27.691 --> 00:21:28.291 Vic: that over. 00:21:28.311 --> 00:21:29.901 Michele: someone pay for it? 00:21:33.271 --> 00:21:37.591 Vic: Yes, I will let people pay for it, if I have a legal policy. 00:21:38.092 --> 00:21:41.212 Michele: Yeah, I mean, I think Stripe might even, I don't know 00:21:41.212 --> 00:21:42.712 if they require that or they 00:21:42.792 --> 00:21:45.102 Vic: They do, they do require. 00:21:45.282 --> 00:21:45.732 Yeah. 00:21:45.762 --> 00:21:49.722 And I linked them to a page that doesn't exist yet. 00:21:50.132 --> 00:21:50.522 Michele: Oops. 00:21:51.378 --> 00:21:52.098 Vic: Yeah. 00:21:52.158 --> 00:21:53.988 So I should take care of that right away. 00:21:54.992 --> 00:21:58.952 Michele: So in this trial, you've given people, is that like a one 00:21:58.952 --> 00:22:01.922 month thing or is that unlimited or. 00:22:02.672 --> 00:22:03.692 Vic: It's just one month thing. 00:22:04.082 --> 00:22:07.202 Um, figure if they want to keep using it, they can let me know. 00:22:07.412 --> 00:22:13.412 And it's just a way for me to kind of like put a cap on the amount of, I don't know, 00:22:13.832 --> 00:22:15.572 bituminous texting, they can do, I guess. 00:22:16.017 --> 00:22:18.207 Michele: Did you already figure out the pricing for it? 00:22:18.705 --> 00:22:19.455 Vic: Yeah, I did. 00:22:19.455 --> 00:22:23.685 You know, there's a lot of competition in this market, so it's, it's good, right? 00:22:24.505 --> 00:22:25.425 This already exists. 00:22:25.575 --> 00:22:25.755 Yeah. 00:22:25.755 --> 00:22:27.255 there's a market, that already exists. 00:22:27.328 --> 00:22:29.968 So I looked at what their pricing costs and I also looked at what, 00:22:29.998 --> 00:22:31.678 you know, Twilio charges me. 00:22:32.348 --> 00:22:36.938 And I kind of like roughly multiplied it by, you know, the number, 00:22:37.028 --> 00:22:40.194 there's an allowance because it's a product that uses as an API. 00:22:40.234 --> 00:22:43.174 Can I have to do that math on like, what is it going to cost me? 00:22:43.294 --> 00:22:49.704 So I kind of math that and then multiply that by 1.5 or something. 00:22:50.514 --> 00:22:56.964 So it's probably not the best pricing, with, this is what I've ended up. 00:22:56.964 --> 00:23:00.954 Michele: So are they charged then on a transactional basis or do they get like 00:23:01.524 --> 00:23:03.744 Vic: No, I give people fix it, pressing 00:23:03.804 --> 00:23:04.554 Michele: $5 a week? 00:23:05.274 --> 00:23:06.054 Vic: That's exactly it. 00:23:06.064 --> 00:23:08.764 So it's something like, you know, I have to actually go look at my 00:23:08.764 --> 00:23:13.954 pricing, but it's something like you can do either one time or you can do 00:23:13.954 --> 00:23:16.324 a monthly subscription sort of thing. 00:23:16.821 --> 00:23:21.321 And if you did a one-time plan, you could pay me $5 and get 250 text messages, 00:23:21.711 --> 00:23:27.428 or you could pay $15 a month and get a thousand text messages and you could pay 00:23:27.428 --> 00:23:33.418 $50 a month and you can get, you know, 2000 text messages and five phone numbers. 00:23:33.958 --> 00:23:34.228 Yeah. 00:23:34.778 --> 00:23:35.348 Michele: Interesting. 00:23:36.256 --> 00:23:37.216 So I want to go back to something. 00:23:37.216 --> 00:23:41.266 So you mentioned earlier when I asked you what this is, that it is a shared 00:23:41.266 --> 00:23:43.606 inbox for texting with customers. 00:23:44.103 --> 00:23:49.623 And the use cases you have described to me are first you and your wife, having 00:23:49.623 --> 00:23:56.503 a way to jointly receive messages from the school and reply to them and your 00:23:56.503 --> 00:24:05.061 friend for unclear reasons that we will not dig into um, annoying his wife, why, 00:24:05.171 --> 00:24:07.781 other people wanting to sign up for it. 00:24:09.111 --> 00:24:11.601 Vic: Ah, so I don't it's okay. 00:24:11.721 --> 00:24:16.851 So I looked for services where parents would share an inbox and it doesn't exist. 00:24:17.498 --> 00:24:19.268 And I don't know that. 00:24:19.898 --> 00:24:22.838 I think that's one of those things that parents are happy too. 00:24:22.988 --> 00:24:26.108 I mean, it's annoying, but they don't want to necessarily solve it with money. 00:24:26.588 --> 00:24:30.398 But when I started looking for shared inboxes, the thing that kept coming 00:24:30.398 --> 00:24:35.018 up over and over was businesses that want to do text message marketing. 00:24:35.516 --> 00:24:38.336 And therefore need to use a shared inbox 00:24:38.426 --> 00:24:42.086 for the people that you know, that are doing the customer support. 00:24:42.326 --> 00:24:46.997 And so I'm uh, I'm on the user side of that where I get a lot of text messages. 00:24:46.997 --> 00:24:51.287 So actually during the recording of this podcast, I just got text messages, alerts 00:24:51.287 --> 00:24:57.677 that my local farmer's market produce box just got delivered outside our house. 00:24:58.180 --> 00:24:58.540 It's okay. 00:24:58.570 --> 00:25:01.262 My wife will pick that up, and I can write back. 00:25:01.262 --> 00:25:03.842 I can text back and the person who is currently doing the 00:25:03.842 --> 00:25:05.312 route will write back to us. 00:25:05.312 --> 00:25:08.192 And I know that's not her personal cell phone number, probably because 00:25:08.192 --> 00:25:09.872 she's also called from that before. 00:25:10.412 --> 00:25:16.472 So the market actually exists for this, and I figured it was better to, you 00:25:16.472 --> 00:25:22.252 know, try to compete in that market where I don't need to educate anybody 00:25:22.252 --> 00:25:28.453 on, on what this is, instead of trying to find, trying to educate parents on 00:25:28.453 --> 00:25:30.283 needing to have a shared phone number. 00:25:30.580 --> 00:25:30.970 Michele: Right. 00:25:31.470 --> 00:25:35.160 Vic: So that made more sense to me, even though I'm going to be using it. 00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:38.760 So, but for people like me and hobbyists, who wants to annoy 00:25:38.760 --> 00:25:44.590 their wife, there's the, really cheap, much more limited plan. 00:25:44.710 --> 00:25:48.207 But you could also do just like a one-time payment and just not 00:25:48.207 --> 00:25:51.147 have to, you know, get into a subscription that you don't want. 00:25:51.650 --> 00:25:56.760 Michele: So I'm going to ask you a very blunt question that might sound. 00:25:58.037 --> 00:25:59.817 I mean, but it's not intended that way. 00:25:59.887 --> 00:26:03.517 Why would somebody sign up with yours, the service rather than 00:26:04.057 --> 00:26:05.077 something that already exists? 00:26:05.580 --> 00:26:06.960 Vic: That is a solid question. 00:26:07.207 --> 00:26:08.207 And I have wondered that. 00:26:08.217 --> 00:26:09.927 That's why I'm building it on the side. 00:26:09.987 --> 00:26:12.957 It's not something that I intend to make money off of right now. 00:26:13.467 --> 00:26:18.022 And so I'm using this as a way for me to play with and build features 00:26:18.022 --> 00:26:20.122 on, and I'm already a user, right? 00:26:20.512 --> 00:26:25.102 Uh, I am a little bit competing on price because it's a much better price product. 00:26:25.362 --> 00:26:29.772 And I'm doing things like API access to try to kind of target the niche of 00:26:30.162 --> 00:26:34.032 developers who want to use something like this, but they don't get API 00:26:34.032 --> 00:26:36.247 access for as inexpensive as this is. 00:26:36.600 --> 00:26:37.680 Uh, I don't know why else. 00:26:38.234 --> 00:26:39.254 Michele: So that's interesting. 00:26:39.254 --> 00:26:42.960 You just told me you're not trying to make money off of it. 00:26:43.657 --> 00:26:47.707 But first of all, you're spending money and time on it. 00:26:48.247 --> 00:26:51.157 And I feel like with this kind of thing, you either have to make a decision 00:26:51.157 --> 00:26:56.910 of, do you want to make money on it or do you want to spend money on it? 00:26:57.414 --> 00:27:00.564 And it sounds like you have actually decided you want to make money. 00:27:00.564 --> 00:27:04.604 You have Stripe integrated, you have pricing plans, all set up. 00:27:04.604 --> 00:27:06.794 You did your research on the competitors. 00:27:06.824 --> 00:27:11.174 You just gave me two reasons, why somebody would use this because it's 00:27:11.174 --> 00:27:15.044 cheaper and more developer friendly at the price point than other options. 00:27:15.547 --> 00:27:18.607 And yet you told me that you don't want to make money on it and 00:27:18.607 --> 00:27:21.307 downplayed it, I find very interesting. 00:27:22.427 --> 00:27:27.411 Vic: That's because I went into a not trying to uh, feel rejection 00:27:28.281 --> 00:27:31.691 mode by being okay with rejection. 00:27:32.261 --> 00:27:35.751 Uh, I don't yet know the exact niche I'm targeting. 00:27:35.751 --> 00:27:36.051 Right. 00:27:36.141 --> 00:27:38.151 Is that how you say the word niche, niche, niche. 00:27:38.431 --> 00:27:41.581 Michele: Yeah, but I think you niche, have people know, talking about doesn't matter. 00:27:42.436 --> 00:27:44.116 Vic: I still haven't figured out that exact niche. 00:27:44.116 --> 00:27:44.276 Right. 00:27:44.296 --> 00:27:49.216 It's uh, I mean, is it shared text messaging for people that 00:27:49.216 --> 00:27:53.891 are delivering produce or is it share text messaging schools. 00:27:54.048 --> 00:27:57.018 So I, I said to you earlier that, you know, this is a little bit 00:27:57.108 --> 00:28:00.288 stemming from the text messages we're getting from our school. 00:28:00.648 --> 00:28:05.148 And the other thing is I was also going to go back to the preschool. 00:28:05.148 --> 00:28:11.118 Our, one of our kids still is in and do it as an add on for every. 00:28:11.481 --> 00:28:14.761 Um, I have been letting that school use it a little bit that way. 00:28:15.121 --> 00:28:19.631 Uh, They don't use the interface and the new product that I built, but they can 00:28:19.631 --> 00:28:24.081 actually send a text message to a list of parents and the message does go up. 00:28:24.588 --> 00:28:28.488 So I was going to try to talk to them about it, and I know they use some 00:28:28.488 --> 00:28:31.638 sort of weird commercial, Verizon product or something like that 00:28:31.638 --> 00:28:32.898 that recently raised their rates. 00:28:32.982 --> 00:28:36.898 So I have kind of a, I don't want to say, oh, I have an in there, but I was 00:28:36.898 --> 00:28:40.318 going to talk to other preschools about, you know, all the texting and they 00:28:40.318 --> 00:28:45.538 do, but I don't know if like that's necessarily the market I want to target. 00:28:45.538 --> 00:28:51.538 Is this texting for people who run preschools, that seems really specific. 00:28:52.042 --> 00:28:58.908 Michele: I think in the early days of a company or a SAS, if you are 00:28:58.998 --> 00:29:02.958 building something in a market that is already validated, right? 00:29:02.958 --> 00:29:06.938 Like you're not the first person who is building a shared 00:29:06.938 --> 00:29:08.498 inbox, texting service, right? 00:29:08.498 --> 00:29:10.675 Like, you know, that market has been validated. 00:29:11.175 --> 00:29:15.345 Your niche is people who are willing to pay you. 00:29:15.795 --> 00:29:21.525 I think that's as much as you need to focus on at this point is simply, are 00:29:21.525 --> 00:29:22.785 there people who are willing to pay. 00:29:23.865 --> 00:29:25.125 Serve them for the beginning. 00:29:25.155 --> 00:29:29.335 And then, like, I don't think I knew what our niches were for geocoding 00:29:29.475 --> 00:29:34.468 for at least two or three years, or even like really had a sense of them. 00:29:34.468 --> 00:29:36.778 It was just like, holy crap. 00:29:36.778 --> 00:29:39.268 These people are willing to pay us like amazing. 00:29:39.268 --> 00:29:42.918 Let's make sure the servers stay on and like, you know, and we stay ahead of it. 00:29:42.918 --> 00:29:43.188 Right. 00:29:43.188 --> 00:29:47.020 Like, but we didn't focus on stuff like really, really deeply understanding 00:29:47.020 --> 00:29:50.440 those niches at all, because it was just like, is this even a viable business 00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:52.120 that's worth spending our time on? 00:29:52.120 --> 00:29:55.887 And you know, if you were running ads behind it, I think that's a 00:29:55.887 --> 00:29:59.277 different story, but you're not right. 00:29:59.277 --> 00:30:01.447 Cause then you need to know some more information about 00:30:01.447 --> 00:30:02.767 industries and stuff like that. 00:30:02.853 --> 00:30:05.793 But I think there's also kind of this interesting opportunity for you there, 00:30:05.793 --> 00:30:09.183 which you said you, you don't want to sell to people who don't know that they need 00:30:09.183 --> 00:30:11.151 it, which is you know, a great approach. 00:30:11.151 --> 00:30:13.971 It's so much easier to sell something to someone when they 00:30:13.971 --> 00:30:16.041 already know that they need it. 00:30:16.071 --> 00:30:20.031 They're already looking for alternatives to this random 00:30:20.031 --> 00:30:21.621 expensive Verizon product, right? 00:30:21.671 --> 00:30:26.561 But being a, an API integration that just plugs into somebody 00:30:26.561 --> 00:30:29.531 else's product that they're selling and then when their product does 00:30:29.531 --> 00:30:33.701 well, then they use your product more that's a great place to be in. 00:30:33.701 --> 00:30:36.221 Like you said, parents don't know that they have this problem. 00:30:36.721 --> 00:30:40.531 And I think that's a, sometimes a really big challenge with B2C products, but 00:30:40.531 --> 00:30:45.391 instead you go, we have a little B to C sleeve for people to play around with, 00:30:45.391 --> 00:30:48.638 and for some reason, a annoy spouses, but you know, maybe more than that. 00:30:48.668 --> 00:30:50.828 Maybe there's like a B2B direction here. 00:30:50.828 --> 00:30:55.575 That is, I mean, like B2C is a valid path, but B to C, B to B sometimes 00:30:55.575 --> 00:30:58.335 is just so much easier cause there's so much less convincing. 00:30:58.386 --> 00:31:01.146 Vic: Except for when you have to sit in a room with the lawyers and go 00:31:01.146 --> 00:31:04.806 over lines of your privacy policy, which I've had to do before for area. 00:31:05.171 --> 00:31:06.041 Michele: Yeah. 00:31:07.721 --> 00:31:11.211 Yeah, but I mean, like, you know, you can also, like, I think we didn't 00:31:11.211 --> 00:31:13.311 even really negotiate with anyone. 00:31:13.371 --> 00:31:15.141 I mean, for, you know, this is just my experience alone. 00:31:15.141 --> 00:31:15.321 Right. 00:31:15.321 --> 00:31:19.476 But, for like, two years in really, like, we never had to 00:31:19.476 --> 00:31:21.046 deal with lawyers for a long time. 00:31:21.046 --> 00:31:23.476 If you're dealing with companies, that'll give their developer a 00:31:23.476 --> 00:31:27.376 credit card for something and, you know, just accept your terms of use. 00:31:27.376 --> 00:31:29.176 There's plenty of those companies out there. 00:31:29.176 --> 00:31:32.656 You don't have to go straight to, you know, enterprise and 00:31:32.656 --> 00:31:34.066 lawyers and everything like that. 00:31:34.066 --> 00:31:39.616 There's definitely a lot of companies out there that will just accept the 00:31:39.616 --> 00:31:41.536 default terms and pay with a credit. 00:31:42.033 --> 00:31:46.593 Vic: Um, the $5 like one-time payment thing I have, I think 00:31:46.593 --> 00:31:49.273 that is probably the B to C plan. 00:31:49.633 --> 00:31:52.423 Like you could I'm not leaning too much into this, but you know, you 00:31:52.423 --> 00:31:57.733 could, this could be the, oh, do you need a phone number to text 00:31:57.733 --> 00:31:59.383 people on Craigslist or whatever? 00:32:00.143 --> 00:32:03.173 You know, you can pay $5 and not even need to own a cell phone. 00:32:03.173 --> 00:32:03.473 Right. 00:32:03.593 --> 00:32:03.803 So 00:32:03.803 --> 00:32:05.142 that's totally, I think you could do. 00:32:05.211 --> 00:32:09.051 But I look at that a little bit more like, oh, you want to try this out? 00:32:09.081 --> 00:32:13.581 You can pay me $5 for it of, you know, getting a free trial sort of thing. 00:32:13.886 --> 00:32:14.246 Michele: Yeah. 00:32:14.246 --> 00:32:15.566 And I think there's value in that. 00:32:15.566 --> 00:32:19.156 And, you know, I thought, I think a lot about what Ben from Tupelo said a couple 00:32:19.156 --> 00:32:24.346 months ago, about how, when they started out, like you had to pay like 500 or a 00:32:24.346 --> 00:32:26.476 thousand dollars to, to have access to it. 00:32:26.476 --> 00:32:28.636 And people are doing that on their personal credit cards. 00:32:29.221 --> 00:32:29.521 Vic: Yeah. 00:32:29.591 --> 00:32:30.871 I remember that episode. 00:32:30.961 --> 00:32:33.211 I CA I couldn't believe that that was actually a thing 00:32:33.211 --> 00:32:34.981 that people were happy to do. 00:32:35.041 --> 00:32:35.131 I 00:32:35.136 --> 00:32:35.526 Michele: Right. 00:32:36.336 --> 00:32:36.396 Yeah. 00:32:36.421 --> 00:32:38.311 Vic: talks about their, you know, how good their product is. 00:32:38.311 --> 00:32:38.581 Right. 00:32:38.916 --> 00:32:42.980 Michele: Yeah, but I think he like requires like a little bit of you 00:32:42.980 --> 00:32:45.167 know, of buy-in, I'm literally, right. 00:32:45.367 --> 00:32:49.324 The other thing with us is like, it's actually costing you money every time 00:32:49.324 --> 00:32:51.814 somebody sends these text messages. 00:32:51.814 --> 00:32:56.582 And I think if you have a side business that it's only costing you money. 00:32:56.582 --> 00:32:57.722 It's not a business. 00:32:57.752 --> 00:32:58.592 It's a hobby. 00:33:00.084 --> 00:33:01.789 Vic: That is what my accountant will tell me. 00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:04.199 Michele: This is you have an accountant. 00:33:04.249 --> 00:33:06.889 That's actually, that's that's a good step. 00:33:07.844 --> 00:33:08.114 Vic: Yeah. 00:33:08.114 --> 00:33:09.184 It's uh, it's 00:33:09.289 --> 00:33:10.279 Michele: accountant will tell you that. 00:33:10.340 --> 00:33:11.283 Vic: She exists. 00:33:11.337 --> 00:33:15.477 I have yet to have her do this year's taxes, but oh, I mean last year's taxes. 00:33:15.507 --> 00:33:15.717 Yes. 00:33:15.717 --> 00:33:15.957 I know. 00:33:15.957 --> 00:33:16.107 It's 00:33:16.372 --> 00:33:16.492 Michele: yeah. 00:33:16.947 --> 00:33:17.457 Vic: It's fine. 00:33:20.917 --> 00:33:22.237 Michele: Well on that note. 00:33:22.987 --> 00:33:25.177 Vic: Yeah, I want to go back to something you said, right? 00:33:25.177 --> 00:33:26.167 Where, Okay. 00:33:26.287 --> 00:33:31.117 I do want to make money with this, but I am kind of taking this uh, this 00:33:31.117 --> 00:33:35.017 approach here where it costs me very little to run, unless someone uses the 00:33:35.017 --> 00:33:38.190 product and, and I want to kind of help. 00:33:38.790 --> 00:33:44.760 And I'm trying to minimize the possibility that they will stop using the product 00:33:44.760 --> 00:33:46.230 that they haven't started using yet. 00:33:46.260 --> 00:33:46.500 So. 00:33:48.255 --> 00:33:50.385 Uh, But I do want, I do want this to succeed. 00:33:50.385 --> 00:33:51.615 I do want it to make money. 00:33:51.675 --> 00:33:54.045 I have been learning things while doing it as well. 00:33:54.166 --> 00:33:55.966 But yeah, that is my goal. 00:33:55.966 --> 00:33:59.326 My goal is for this to succeed for people to use it and for 00:33:59.386 --> 00:34:00.856 people to be happy using it. 00:34:01.356 --> 00:34:02.646 But yeah, it's really fresh. 00:34:02.976 --> 00:34:03.876 It's really fresh right now. 00:34:04.061 --> 00:34:06.911 Michele: Sometimes it's hard as you admit that to yourself, when you've, you don't 00:34:06.911 --> 00:34:08.501 even have anyone paying for it, right. 00:34:08.501 --> 00:34:08.711 Like 00:34:08.836 --> 00:34:08.986 Vic: Yeah. 00:34:09.101 --> 00:34:10.421 Michele: let yourself have the. 00:34:11.175 --> 00:34:14.845 Vic: Yeah, it's different from the preschool thing, because there I went 00:34:14.845 --> 00:34:18.805 and found someone that had an existing pain point really embedded with 00:34:18.805 --> 00:34:21.235 them and solve the problem for them. 00:34:21.735 --> 00:34:24.535 And they were, you know, they were willing to pay me for it from 00:34:24.535 --> 00:34:26.365 the very moment that I met them. 00:34:26.365 --> 00:34:31.495 And here it's a completely different leap of faith of, oh, now I have to market and 00:34:31.495 --> 00:34:33.115 I have to like tell people this exists. 00:34:34.330 --> 00:34:39.210 And then I have to convince them why they should give me money instead of some other 00:34:39.210 --> 00:34:42.150 big established venture funded company. 00:34:42.720 --> 00:34:43.180 Work. 00:34:43.683 --> 00:34:44.163 Michele: Yeah. 00:34:44.193 --> 00:34:45.503 It's like, is it good enough? 00:34:45.533 --> 00:34:48.221 I mean, I definitely felt that in the beginning of like, you 00:34:48.221 --> 00:34:51.221 know, somebody says, why would I use you instead of Google maps? 00:34:51.221 --> 00:34:51.821 And we'd be like, yeah. 00:34:51.851 --> 00:34:55.241 Why, why would you like uh. 00:34:55.511 --> 00:34:56.021 No, of course. 00:34:56.021 --> 00:34:59.411 And now I, you know, now I knew why, and I actually knew why in the beginning, right? 00:34:59.411 --> 00:35:00.491 Because our pricing was better. 00:35:00.491 --> 00:35:02.911 Our terms of service, people could actually store the data like that was 00:35:02.911 --> 00:35:05.961 better, but like the initial reaction was. 00:35:06.976 --> 00:35:08.836 Because our pricing and our terms of service better. 00:35:08.836 --> 00:35:12.426 It, was, yeah, I really don't know why you would right. 00:35:12.436 --> 00:35:14.836 It was, it was like an emotional reaction. 00:35:14.866 --> 00:35:18.946 It was not a reaction based on the reality of the product and the market. 00:35:19.445 --> 00:35:21.195 Vic: I'm glad you're past that now. 00:35:22.170 --> 00:35:24.000 Michele: I think it's okay that you're there right now. 00:35:24.030 --> 00:35:26.176 I think that's very common. 00:35:26.680 --> 00:35:27.100 Vic: Okay. 00:35:27.190 --> 00:35:28.000 That's good to know. 00:35:28.496 --> 00:35:28.796 Michele: Yeah. 00:35:29.036 --> 00:35:29.726 I don't think you're the only. 00:35:29.746 --> 00:35:30.376 Vic: me feel better. 00:35:30.376 --> 00:35:31.186 That makes me feel better. 00:35:31.690 --> 00:35:34.780 Michele: Well, maybe on this note of making Vic feel better, 00:35:35.230 --> 00:35:36.400 we should wrap up for today. 00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:42.970 If you feel similarly to Vic or you have been there, I'm sure he would 00:35:42.970 --> 00:35:44.740 love it if you reached out on Twitter. 00:35:44.834 --> 00:35:48.524 Because we do have a wonderful community around this podcast. 00:35:49.030 --> 00:35:51.700 And speaking of that community around this podcast, I would like 00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:53.080 to take a moment to thank them. 00:35:53.584 --> 00:35:55.984 So huge thanks to all of our listeners, who've become software 00:35:55.984 --> 00:35:57.604 socialites and support our show. 00:35:57.964 --> 00:36:01.204 You can become a supportive for $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year 00:36:01.264 --> 00:36:03.694 at software social.dev/supporters. 00:36:04.264 --> 00:36:08.134 Chris from chipper CI, the daringly handsome Kevin Griffin. 00:36:08.164 --> 00:36:09.934 I don't think I'm ever going to get through that one with. 00:36:10.599 --> 00:36:11.349 Uh, Almost laughing. 00:36:11.349 --> 00:36:12.099 So thank you, Kevin. 00:36:12.118 --> 00:36:15.958 Mike from gently used domains, Dave from recut, max of online or 00:36:15.958 --> 00:36:19.828 not, Stefan from talk to Stefan, Brendan Andre of bright bits. 00:36:19.918 --> 00:36:24.838 Aaron from Tuple, Alex Hillman from the tiny MBA, Ramy from memo.fm, 00:36:24.928 --> 00:36:26.968 Jane and Benedikt from user list, 00:36:27.028 --> 00:36:31.198 Kendall Morgan, Ruben Gamez of sign well, Corey Haynes of swipe well 00:36:31.198 --> 00:36:35.398 Mike Wade of crowd sentry, Nate Ritter of room steals, 00:36:35.668 --> 00:36:36.988 Anna Maste of subscribed sense, 00:36:37.513 --> 00:36:41.173 Geoff Roberts from outseta, Justin Jackson of MegaMaker. 00:36:42.273 --> 00:36:46.173 Jack Ellis and Paul Jarvis from fathom analytics, Matthew from 00:36:46.173 --> 00:36:50.373 appointment reminder, Andrew Culver at bullet train, John Kostor, 00:36:50.433 --> 00:36:54.363 Alex, of corso systems, Richard from stunning, Josh, the annoyingly 00:36:54.363 --> 00:36:58.353 pragmatic founder, who actually wants me to read that, Ben from consent kit, 00:36:58.413 --> 00:37:03.453 John from credo and editor ninja, Cam Sloan, Michael Koper of nusii proposals, 00:37:03.783 --> 00:37:06.693 Chris from URL box, Caeli of Tosslet, 00:37:07.293 --> 00:37:13.803 Greg park from trait lab, Adam from rails auto-scale, Lana and Alex from recapsy, 00:37:13.803 --> 00:37:17.403 Joe Masilotti of railsdevs.com, 00:37:17.883 --> 00:37:21.363 Proud mama from Oplnet LLC, 00:37:21.873 --> 00:37:22.863 Anna from Kradle, 00:37:23.564 --> 00:37:26.834 Arvid Kahl, James Sauers of castaway.fm, 00:37:26.864 --> 00:37:28.874 Nathan of develop your UX, 00:37:28.934 --> 00:37:33.434 Jessica Malnik, Damian Moore of audio audit podcasts checker, 00:37:33.734 --> 00:37:38.564 Eldon from nodle studios and Mitchell Davis from recruit kits. 00:37:38.984 --> 00:37:41.324 Thank you to everyone for supporting our show. 00:37:41.324 --> 00:37:44.264 And Vic, thank you so much for being on today. 00:37:44.534 --> 00:37:49.604 If people want to hear more of your building public updates about Hey texting 00:37:49.604 --> 00:37:54.779 or every oak or more about every Oak and Hey texting, where should they go? 00:37:55.284 --> 00:37:57.894 Vic: My Twitter is where I talk about these things. 00:37:57.924 --> 00:38:00.054 It's at Vic, the Jaya Kumar. 00:38:00.553 --> 00:38:01.063 Michele: Awesome. 00:38:01.183 --> 00:38:05.083 Well, thank you so much for coming on today and I look 00:38:05.083 --> 00:38:07.033 forward to following your updates. 00:38:07.738 --> 00:38:11.938 Vic: Thank you so much for having me and I look forward to how much longer your list 00:38:11.938 --> 00:38:16.228 of sponsors is going to get a few months and you needing to read them out loud. 00:38:17.638 --> 00:38:19.678 Michele: I look forward to it as well. 00:38:19.678 --> 00:38:23.288 I it's, still kind of surreal that, that many people are supporting us. 00:38:23.438 --> 00:38:24.136 So all right. 00:38:24.640 --> 00:38:25.870 Talk to you guys later.