The Modern Hotelier #100: Behind the Culinary Experience at Kalahari Resorts | with Chef Nicholas Shaw
===
Steve Carran: Welcome back to another episode of The Modern Hotelier. Today we had on chef Nick Shaw from Kalahari Resorts. David, what was your, one of your favorite takeaways from this conversation?
David: Yeah, I like that, you know, that chef kind of, you know, put it out there about trying new cuisines and some of the things he likes to do, personally versus at work. And, um, you know, it definitely got me hungry and it got me thinking about visiting Wisconsin. 
Steve Carran: Yeah, we'll have to go sometime. I loved how he prioritized safety. That was one of the first things we talked about was, you know, what he's doing to make sure not only him, but his team is safe as well. And just kind of hearing about some of the tools he's doing with managing grease and, you know, just keeping everybody safe, I thought was, I thought was huge, so, really enjoyed it.
Enjoy the episode.

David: Welcome to The Modern Hotelier, the most engaged hospitality podcast. I'm your host, David Millili.
Steve Carran: I'm your co host Steve Carran.
Jon Bumhoffer: And I'm the producer, Jon Bumhoffer.
David: Steve, who do we have on the program today?
Steve Carran: Yeah, David, today we have on chef Nick Shaw. Chef Nick is the corporate executive chef at Kalahari Resorts in the Wisconsin Dells. Nick has an impressive culinary background and has helped put the on the culinary map. Welcome to the show, Nick!
Nicholas Shaw: Thanks. It's great to be here.
David: Thanks, Nick. So we're going to go through a couple of sections. We're gonna go through a lightning round of questions, get to know you a little bit better, your, your background, your career, and then we're going to dive into some industry topics. Sound good?
Nicholas Shaw: Sounds great.
David: All right, great. So what was your first job? 
Nicholas Shaw: Oh, gosh, uh, Great American Cookie Company. Baking and decorating giant cookies at the mall. Like so many of our youth, right? Back when malls were a thing.
David: Yeah, those are the days. Uh, something that you wish you were better at.
Nicholas Shaw: Probably more patient. That seems like that's a constant battle, right? As soon as you feel like you got it locked down. Maybe you need to work on a little bit more.
David: I hear you. So what's a luxury you can't live without?
Nicholas Shaw: I don't know, air conditioning.
David: It's a good one, especially this time of year.
Nicholas Shaw: Oh my gosh, yeah. We have a property in Texas, man, and it just gets so hot down there. but yeah, no, I love the AC. I love, um, produce that we get up here in Wisconsin is fantastic in the summer, so.
David: What's a superpower you wish you had?
Nicholas Shaw: Ooh, maybe the ability to read minds, that one would be pretty, that would come in handy, right? 
Could offer a pretty cool experience if you could do that.
David: Yeah, 100%. So what's a place you've never been to that you most want to go?
Nicholas Shaw: Ooh, right now, maybe Dubai. that seems like just everything hot happening there right now. It seems like a great place, uh, culinarily. Yeah, I would love to go there. 
David: Okay.
Now, if you had your own talk show, late night talk show, who would your first guest be?
Nicholas Shaw: Maybe, uh, John Butler from John Butler Trio. Big fan of his. Love the music.
David: Alright, this is the last one here. If you had a time machine. Which way are you going into the future, back to the past, and what year are you going to?
Nicholas Shaw: Oh, I'd probably go in the future and see how things, uh, turn out. Maybe, uh, 200, 250 years in the future. Hopefully everything's going smooth. I'm sure we figured it all out by then.
David: Hopefully.
Steve Carran: Hopefully we're still here.
Nicholas Shaw: Yeah.
Steve Carran: That was great, Nick. Great short answers here. Now we're going to learn a little bit more about you and your background. So you grew up in Southern Illinois, is that correct?
Nicholas Shaw: Carbondale.
Steve Carran: There you go. Carbondale, Illinois. How did growing up in Carbondale shape who you are today?
Nicholas Shaw: well, I think, you know, there's the college there, SIU, which I attended, and, there was a lot of, uh, international students, so I feel like, you know, for small a town as it was, like 20, 000 people, we had a lot of, um, exposure to different cultures, a lot of exposure to, uh, different cuisine, and I think that's a huge part of the, uh, the reason why, For who I am.
and, uh, I think definitely, uh, Carbondale had a huge part of that.
Steve Carran: Yeah.
David: So you went to Southern Illinois University. Did you know at an early age you wanted to be a chef or did you have some other form of professional that you want to get into?
Nicholas Shaw: well, I knew, when I was a kid, I, I used to say I wanted to be a chef. and then in high school, you know, I decided to go to seminary. So I went to seminary for a couple of years. And then I figured out that wasn't for me, and that wasn't going to work out in the long run. so I went back to school, uh, and, I started cooking.
you know, I think as a lot of chefs do. started cooking just as a job, and then found out that I had a real passion for it. And eventually decided to, uh, go to culinary school.
Steve Carran: That's awesome. So as a chef, I gotta ask, do you have, personally, a signature dish, or something that you love to cook that like, your family knows as well that it's your dish and every time you cook it, the whole neighborhood's pretty much overeaten?
Nicholas Shaw: man, I don't know. That's a, that's always a popular question for chefs. It's a difficult one to answer. I guess I would say, you know, I really, um, at home we do a fair amount of Indian. I think I make a pretty good biryani.
I'm also, uh, really into Iranian cuisine, Persian cuisine, so we do quite a bit of that at the house, Faresht and, and Persian stews like that.
Steve Carran: Is that your favorite cuisine to cook, Iranian Persian foods?
Nicholas Shaw: Uh, you know, at home, I think, for people, I would say Italian is probably 
my favorite, you know, to do, for a larger scale. It's a little bit more approachable. Sometimes people, you know, those Persian flavors are, are, quite different for an American palate. But yeah, I mean, I'm, I love, I love it.
I love the whole flavor profiles, the sour, the sweets, 
um, it's a lot of fun.
Steve Carran: Yeah, that's great. That's great. So now we're going to get into your career a little bit more, how you got to where you are today. So you kind of gave us, you know, how you got into going from the seminary to deciding to be a chef. Uh, you were the sous, senior sous chef at Gaylord Entertainment, then the executive corporate chef, at, the Gaylord Opryland Resort.
What did those early days teach you that you still take with you at the Kalahari?
Nicholas Shaw: Oh, well, you know, what I really loved about working at Gaylord and, you know, getting to be an exec there was, the chance to work with other chefs, you know, we work as a community of chefs in, uh, Kalahari as well, so the chance to, learn with them, to cook with them, to Live in, um, I guess you could almost say like a commune of, uh, culinary, uh, interests.
Uh, it's not so different from the seminary, really. I mean, it's a, it's a big group of a lot, mostly guys, that are extremely passionate about something. so I really enjoyed, being able to, uh, work with all the people that I got to work with. I got to work with a ton of really great chefs. And, I think I came out better for it.
and I, I still believe that today.
David: So in 2017, you came to the Kalahari and you worked your way up to the Corporate Executive Chef. What excited you about joining the team?
Nicholas Shaw: well, I was excited because of, uh, the culinary passion that Kalahari has. you know, I think it's something that separates us as kind of a brand. there's a lot of fantastic resorts. but Kalahari specifically is very culinarily focused. The for, you know, making sure that we have, uh, a variety of offerings and that, uh, we're employing the best chefs that we can, we're getting the best product that we can, and that we're delivering the best product to our guests that we can.
And it comes from, uh, ownership. It starts with our ownership. And they're extremely driven to do, to be the best in market.
Steve Carran: that's great. And Todd, Todd Nelson is the owner, right? He's, he's big into the culinary side of things. Is he kind of the one that kind of inspired kind of to get the culinary side of Kalahari on the map?
Nicholas Shaw: they started, uh, with a, uh, pizza place here in Wisconsin Dells. That's what Kalahari was built on. so they have a, uh, food and beverage background, and that passion that they developed when they, when they owned a pizza pub here in Wisconsin Dells, is what, you know, laid the, um, brickwork for everything that we are today. So, yeah, 110 percent it starts with him and it works its way down. yeah, it's a constant challenge and, uh, drive to be better. it's a lot of fun.
Steve Carran: that's great. So, I'm very familiar with the Kalahari, being a native of Wisconsin and going a few times, but for those that may not be as familiar with the Kalahari, what makes it such a great destination and makes it really a place that people should come visit?
Nicholas Shaw: you know, we have the largest indoor water park, in America. you have everything under one roof from, variety of restaurants, Indoor gaming, uh, games, uh, we have, uh, our Tomfoolery, uh, theme park, and, uh, indoor outdoor water parks, and then, you know, as far as, uh, catering and convention, I mean, sky's the limit.
Steve Carran: absolutely. When you're driving down the highway and you come right past it, you know, and that's where you're turning off to, it just is an incredible sight, because it is, it's huge and there is so much to do there.
Nicholas Shaw: I know, you gotta come check it, check it out next time you're back too, because we just got done doing a whole bunch of renovations here and reinvesting 
in the property. 
Steve Carran: Yeah, I haven't been in like 10 years, so I need to make my way back.
David: That's great. And so what's, what's the best way for guests to enjoy a full culinary experience at the Kalahari?
Nicholas Shaw: Well hopefully come, uh, stay with us. Um, you know, here in the Dells property we have, uh, the Wisconsin Brew Pub. Uh, we're opening a a Tino's, um, Italian kitchen in, uh, December. we have Cincos, uh, our, uh. Authentic Mexican, Contemporary Mexican concept. so really, I mean, it's from the first meal of day where you can, of the day where you can dine at Cinco's. We have a breakfast buffet. you can have lunch at Cafe Mirage where we do, pizza, which is, you know, the foundation of what we were built on. So we offer, I think we have some of the best pizza around. I'll challenge, I'll put it up against anybody's. And then hopefully you can dine with us, uh, at night in, uh, Double Cut, our steakhouse.
great cuts, you know, contemporary menu, lots of classics, you know, there's something there for everybody.

Steve Carran: that was great. I'm excited to come back and check it out. Now we're going to move on to more of the industry thoughts and, you know, what Kalahari is doing. One thing that's obviously always important in kitchens is safety. How does Kalahari commit to prioritizing kitchen safety and do you have any strategies in place?
Nicholas Shaw: well, I think our our main goal is to try to identify it before there's a problem. a lot of what we, uh, do is, uh, we try to work ahead. Uh, training. Right? Training is one of our biggest components, making sure that people know how to use the equipment that they're using, that they know the safety precautions that need to be taken when they're using it.
for all of our culinary associates, you know, we do knife safety classes, we do food safety classes, so that we know that they know how to work safely. I also think it's, you know, using the Up to date equipment, combi ovens, uh, that can be, have racks rolled in and out, um, are a lot safer.
Uh, we use, uh, RTI, oil system. It's a closed system so that, you know, there's no more pots of, uh, oil being carried around outside to a dumpster or anything like that. all of that working together helps us, you know, stay ahead of these safety issues.
David: And so big buzzwords out there. AI has changed the business side with automating tasks for teams. Is there a technology or tool that helps with automation in the kitchen that either you're using or you're curious about learning more?
Nicholas Shaw: mean, I think that we're always open to, uh, what the future has. There's nothing right now as far as AI that we're currently using, or automation beyond, you know, uh, fryer baskets that we can, program to, drop and to, uh, come back up. The, uh, combi ovens, convection ovens, that allow us to. Monitor temperature, and to make sure that, you know, that we're following the spec on it on our 
recipes. 
Steve Carran: Very cool. So, are there any trends coming up in the culinary industry that you're excited about?
Nicholas Shaw: I think all of the, interests right now that, people have around eating healthy, there's a lot of energy around, People with special dietary needs, uh, gluten allergies, and, uh, people who are eating, um, vegan, you know, I think there's a lot of energy around that right now.
We're trying to focus in on our menus to make sure that we're staying up to date with people's desire for dietary restrictions. I think there's a, lot of, energy around know, foods outside of, what was normally the American palate. we, talked a little bit about Persian cuisine, earlier.
I think that that's starting to become a much bigger trend right now. People are eating, more exotically. People are curious to try new things. so we're trying to make sure that we, offer, foods that, excite people and work for their diets.
David: Yeah. And that's, I mean, it's a great point and I can say, you know, I got very, very lucky when I, finished college, I went and worked in New York and got to work in hotels and work with people from all over the world. So I got to go to, you know, uh, Indian restaurants, which I never would have went to in my life.
Thai, Thai restaurants that were no such thing in my hometown or even, you know, Lebanese restaurants. So. I think you're making a great point. And, yeah, there's a lot of great food out there that a lot of Americans just don't know. So any advice you have for any future chefs out there, any career advice, uh, things that they should make sure that they do before they think they're just going to skyrocket and take off?
Nicholas Shaw: Oh man, that's such a great question. You know, we have, we have a lot of, uh, there There seems to be a lot of excitement with the younger generation. I think that there's a lot of misinformation about what our job is and, and how it really works in the real world. what I always tell young, culinarians one, if you're going to get into the field, that it has to be something that you're extremely passionate about, and that's true for a lot of things, but, culinary, careers can demand a large chunk of time.
Now that trend is changing, right? I mean, the 16 hour work days of chefs everyone's aware that. That style is going away and that, people need to have lifestyles that are work life balance that's sustainable. but you have to be passionate and then a self education, a lot of kids think you go to culinary school and that's where your education stops.
but you know, if you're going to stay competitive, culinarily, and, rise in your career, you've got to constantly be consuming information. Um, Uh, you've got to constantly be learning, challenging yourself, putting yourself sometimes in situations that are slightly uncomfortable, right, you've got to push your boundaries a little bit.
if you stay in an in an area where you feel always safe and comfortable, you're probably not pushing quite hard enough.
Steve Carran: Yeah. What are ways that you are always continuing to learn and kind of, whether it's developing new techniques or new, ways to expand your craft?
Nicholas Shaw: Oh, man, I mean, now I think it's easier than ever, right? When I was, when I was younger it was, you know, You bought cookbooks, you, you, you, uh, subscribe to the culinary magazines, right? And you talk to other chefs. I mean, right now, it is everywhere, all around you, all the time. Those things are, are all still really important.
I mean, personally, you've got to keep, studying, cookbooks. But, you know, Chefs are posting more and more on social media. And, as you consume, this information, right, you can, you can take it in yourself and then, you know, find out that six months down the line, you saw something somewhere and, uh, realize that whether it's a technique or a dish or, it can be applicable to, to this current situation that you're in.
So I think it's easier than it ever has been to stay up to date on trends.
David: So I've got one quick question for you. I'm an ex GM and I find it very difficult to check into hotels because I feel like they're always doing something wrong. When you go out to eat, can you relax and enjoy it? Or are you always thinking about everything that's going into the process?
Nicholas Shaw: Oh, I think, I think I'm pretty, I think I'm, I think I'm pretty laid back about it. You know, I think, moreover, I'm more forgiving than anything else. I think sometimes people in our field, they can be critical. but I, tend to see things from, um, The restaurant's perspective, so I, I think I could be pretty forgiving.
Now, that being said, you know, when you're out, uh, dining, right, it's always, uh, a learning experience. So, you know, sometimes you take away what to do. Sometimes you take away what not to do.
Steve Carran: That's great. So, Chef Nick, this has been great. We have been asking you the questions this whole time. Now we're going to turn the tables and let you ask us a question.
Nicholas Shaw: Let's see. What, what do you, uh, what do you think the big trends coming for 2025 are going to be? What do you think the hot button issues are?
Steve Carran: Are we talking in hospitality?
Nicholas Shaw: hospitality.
Steve Carran: Oh man, David, I feel like we say the same answer for this all the time. You want to go or should I? 
David: Well, I'll focus more on food, but I think you, you hit on it. So even for someone like me, you know, I'm an older guy, all of a sudden now I'm thinking about like plastics in, what it'd be water bottles and how's that getting into the water I'm drinking and am I drinking the right water and am I eating the right way and am I eating.
You know, why is it when somebody goes to Europe and they eat pizza and pasta, they don't gain the weight. But when somebody from Europe comes to the U S they go out for pasta or pizza, they gain five to 10 pounds. So for me, as you were saying, kind of the trend of being more aware of what you're eating and what you're putting in your body, you know, along with, you know, cause you could say, you know, the vegan, that, that kind of practice already kind of goes there to an extent.
But I think for those who aren't vegan, it's, it's, The trends are more about just understanding what you're eating. And, and you made a great point. And that's why I brought up, uh, New York, just, you know, expanding your horizon, just going out there and just trying new foods and trying stuff because, you know, it's like when you're, you're, your kids tell you, Oh, I don't like that.
And you say, well, you ever tried it? And they said, no. And you're like, well, how do you, if you never tried chocolate ice cream, you would think it was horrible. So that's what I see happening. Just more awareness and try to exploration probably.
Steve Carran: one big thing in hospitality is experiences right now, and I think that's gonna go into the food and beverage world as well. I was one lucky person, I got to go to a pop up sushi restaurant where the chef was actually from Japan. And it was actually in Phoenix when I was visiting David, but it was a three hour dinner, And, like, when we were, now I'm going to blank on what that, wasabi sauce, when he actually made the wasabi sauce and, like, shredded it down with shark skin.
so, it was a whole experience and it was incredible and I think another thing on that experience side, I was just talking about this today, but it's infusing cannabis into the food and beverage experience where, you know, the places that those, that cannabis is legal, younger travelers, Gen Z, millennials, they're flocking to those destinations just for cannabis destinations.
And a lot of people are infusing that into food and creating a whole experience on that. So I think the experience, food and beverage trend is not going away anytime soon.
So our producer, Jon, has been listening in the background this whole time. He's going to ask you one final question before we get you out of here, Chef Nick.
Jon Bumhoffer: So it was cool to hear about your experience at Kalahari, um, at the Gaylord Resorts as well. What I'm curious, what do you, you know, working in places like that is probably way different than like a standalone restaurant. And I want, I want to know, like, what is it like, what's your take on the relationship between the hospitality side or like the hotel side and the, the restaurant and the interplay between the 
two and how you both work together to really deliver a great guest experience. 
Nicholas Shaw: Oh, that, that's such a good question. because I've worked in both over the years. 
And I think it is the unified goal that you have, uh, between the hotel side and the restaurant side, to make sure that this guest has a fantastic experience. That we really push it into the beyond expectations realm, and how you can, start that from the minute that they walk, uh, into the hotel to, amenities in the room we understand that they're having some kind of special occasion, how we can translate that from the room experience to a restaurant experience, And really create a, unification, for a stay, that can make something really special for, a for a couple, for a family, corporate guests who are hosting an event.
that's what I would say.
David: well, that does it for another episode of The Modern Hotelier. So Nick, tell the folks listening, Kalahari, how can they get, how 
can they find out more about it? How can they get in touch with you? Plug away, please.
Nicholas Shaw: Yeah, you can find Kalahari online at kalahariresorts. com. You can book online. you can call and book. Um, we'd be happy to have you. 
David: Well, that does it for another episode of The Modern Hotelier, the most engaged podcast in hospitality. So whether you're watching or listening, we appreciate you and we'll see you again soon. And thank you for joining us, Nick. We appreciate it.
Nicholas Shaw: Thank you guys. Have a good day.