Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.
This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.
Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.
I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.
And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.
A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.
Only stuff that works.
I am so happy to have as my guest today, coming back for a second.
Appearance is Holly Corby.
I love to have Holly on and I love to talk to her because she's the perfect combination of fun and a serious professional.
I. So Holly Corby is an education journalist and author focused on teaching and learning.
Her work has appeared everywhere from the New York Times and the Washington Post to the 74, the Hecken, every report and Edutopia.
She writes a Substack for the Science of Learning called the Bell Ringer, where she dives into education research, talks to experts, and provides news about the growing science of learning movement in education.
The Bell Ringer is published online twice weekly.
Holly lives in Nashville, Tennessee with her family, and I'm so happy to have her with us today as she fills us in on what she's been doing in the past six months.
Hi Holly.
Holly Korbey: Hi Jean.
Thanks for having me back.
Gene Tavernetti: it's was so exciting.
Finally got to meet you in person at research ed in New York City.
Holly Korbey: Wasn't that great.
That was, I loved meeting you and I loved meeting a lot of people who I haven't met in person before.
Gene Tavernetti: It's weird, isn't it?
It's almost like, you have met, but you haven't.
It's, it is like you have to hug to seal the deal.
Okay, now it's real.
Now I touched you
Holly Korbey: I know I explained it to my family like, no, these are my online friends.
They were like, mom, that's so weird.
But
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Scary.
So tell me about, was that your first research ed conference?
Holly Korbey: Yes.
That was the very first one I got to attend.
Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
Well, not only attend, did you presented, so t tell me about your whole experience of presenting and maybe other sessions that you visited and any takeaways.
Holly Korbey: Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, overall it was such a great experience and my speaking experience, so I. Spoke about my topic was communicating about the science of learning in an age of distrust.
And I kind of shared some data on, you know, how the public really is in, we're in this moment where people don't trust science very much and how to talk to people about the science of learning who don't know anything about it.
And that's kind of like my big mission and why I started the bell ringer in the first place.
So I do this presentation about kind of like.
Tools that I have learned over 15 years of reporting of how to talk about this stuff with the public and how to get more people on board, like there's a cognitive science to learning.
But I said at the beginning of my talk, gene, this is a conversation like I'm so used to being the one who asks the questions and not provides the answers.
Please, audience ask questions along the way.
So what happened was this really cool thing is that people jumped in and started saying, Hey, well this is how I talk to parents at my school.
Or This is the newsletter we send out.
You know, I had a school superintendent in the audience that was like, this is really important to me because I'm trying to get my entire school district on board with this.
And so it, it ended up being like this giant conversation and it was really fun.
I really got, I really liked it a lot.
Gene Tavernetti: Okay, so, you know, there were hundreds of millions of people that couldn't get to New York City for your session.
So what are a couple tips that you have for folks?
Holly Korbey: Okay, let me think about this.
Jean.
I didn't realize you were gonna ask me this.
One of the things that I really wanna do is make the tent bigger for people and bring more people in.
And to me that means we have to get rid of, and I know you'll love this, get rid of jargon and cognitive science terms that are very hard to explain.
And I think that one of the biggest tips is to keep it, especially at first.
At kind of a high level, give people a framework to understand how learning happens in the brain.
And then stay away from like.
Petty arguments between many groups in this growing movement.
You know, like don't get into like the arguments of synthetic phonics versus another kind of phonics.
Don't do that.
Try to give, you know, try to communicate this framework of how learning happens.
Another one of my key tips is use examples from sports and music.
This is a big one to me, because to me, the principles of the science of learning are so clear.
When you explain it in terms of football or lacrosse or volleyball or learning to play the violin in a way that sometimes is less clear in like math instruction.
So I, that, those were two of the things that I advocated for.
Gene Tavernetti: Great.
So I'm gonna put a pin in that sports that sports metaphor, and we'll come back to that later because it I think it will be pertinent.
I didn't put a pin in, I put an asterisk by it.
So we will talk about that.
So, so we spoke, oh gosh, maybe in July last, and since then, I know that you know, you've continued with the bell ringer and you've continued with your you know, publishing and in the other media that that you work in.
What other projects are you working on?
Or what are your, what's your.
Focus and anything new that you've been doing.
Holly Korbey: Well, the bell ringer is what I'm trying to do with the Bell ringer.
So the Bell ringer is a substack publication.
It is a weekly newsletter that I send out to readers, and it also includes some video.
And it's all about, it's like news tips and tools on the science of learning.
I want it to make it the place to read journalism and evidence-based teaching and learning practices, you know, go to this one place.
So my new project really is trying to expand my reach with the bell ringer and add more features to it.
So one of the new features I have is once a month I'm sending out a newsletter called Tools for Practice, and that is.
Kind of like a real teacher out in the wild that is using a science of learning or an evidence-based practice in their classroom and them explaining what that is and how to do it and the results they saw after they implemented it.
So I found that is really interesting and I'm really working on more tools for practice.
Another.
Feature on the bell ringer is interview with an Expert.
So this is a video and podcast.
You can watch it or listen to it, where I interview experts in the field about critical topics in the science of learning.
The one I just did with Amanda Vander Hayden was awesome where she explained the scientific basis.
Of the instructional hierarchy or the stages of learning and how we know these stages of learning work.
It's, it was super informative.
So that's what I'm working on is kind of like building up the bell ringer so it can be this one stop shop for educators and parents and school leaders to come learn about some of this stuff.
Gene Tavernetti: Last time we spoke you were really wanted to focus on math.
Is that still, does that still holding up?
That's your focus.
Holly Korbey: Yeah, I'm continuing to report on math.
So actually a week or so ago, I launched a four-part series on the bell ringer.
It's, I called it Raising the Bar.
You know what it takes to raise math achievement.
I think that, you know, that, you know, national math scores are tanking.
You know, and this is something that happened after Covid, but it's really been happening for a decade.
And so I really wanted to take a look about, well, what could we do about this?
What is the thing that we need to do to make math accessible for more kids?
So like the first story in the series was taking a look at whether states and districts are gonna look at revamping math.
The way that we've done with reading, you know, and, a lot of teachers now are taking really deep comprehensive training on how the brain learns to read and the best practices, you know, the evidence-based practices on how to teach it.
But I have we done that for math and when I went and looked around, the answer is no.
I mean, we have not, there is no letters product or aims, product professional development.
For teachers to take this deep dive into how to teach math.
But then I found this project, it's called the Kansas Math Project, and the state of Kansas has created their own training.
So there it's like a letters training for math.
And they made it with their own teachers in mind.
But it's like a deep dive, exactly what it is for reading, how the brain learns, what are the evidence-based practices to teach math.
They've created all these YouTube videos showing teach, showing discreet skills to teachers.
It's really good.
And the coolest part about the Kansas Math Project is it's free and available to everyone.
So the YouTube channel, the the instructional videos for teachers it's all free and they've made it open to everyone.
So it like that has given me a little encouragement that maybe we're gonna move in that direction in math, just like we have in reading.
Gene Tavernetti: So, so you have a little encouragement.
What had been discouraging to you?
Like, why do you think it hasn't happened?
In the same way or at the same speed, which, which is, maybe that's not the right word.
Whatever.
Holly Korbey: education after all.
Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
So why do you think, why do you think we don't hasn't gone there yet?
Holly Korbey: That is such a good question, and I think there are several, I have several theories.
I don't have any data to support any of this, but I think that we are a nation of people who are math phobic and it trickles down to even elementary school teachers.
You know, there's a, some really good.
Surveys that elementary school teachers say they're afraid of doing math.
They feel unprepared to teach math.
And so I think people don't, we're not paying as much attention to it as literacy.
I also think that the Science of reading movement has, I. Turned everyone's attention towards reading, which of course we should do.
That is very important.
But there's less appetite for people.
Fewer people know what early math achievement can do for you.
It's just like super predictive of your overall academic achievement of your college readiness.
It's predictive.
They think of how much money you can.
Earn throughout your lifetime is how good you are at elementary school.
Math.
It's more important than people think it is, and I think that a lot of people are missing that.
What do you think it is?
Gene Tavernetti: Well, before I answer that question, which I'd be, which I'm like you, I just have opinions, but let me a, I heard a word at research ed, and you tell me if it's a real word or if this person made it up.
EC data.
Holly Korbey: Oh yeah.
Oh, I like that.
Yeah, I've said that before.
I've said anecdote.
Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
Alright.
And that's what you were talking about, right?
Right Now an A data.
So why do I think very much like you in a similar fashion in that not only are people math phobic, but they are out in the world operating.
Day-to-day lives, everything's good.
Oh, I didn't, oh, I didn't need to know algebra, blah, blah, blah.
You know, so, so they can move along, but they need to read.
And so, I think it's real easy to get behind reading initiatives and let the math lag.
So I think there's one thing, and going along with the fact that like you said, I think my experience in working with teachers for.
You know, 20 years has been that they're not strong in elementary teachers, not strong in math, not strong in writing for the most part.
And that's a generalization but that's what that that's my ada.
Holly Korbey: I'll tell you.
So today's story, just out today, I put out a special report at the Bell Ringer today, a new report from the National Council on Teacher Quality.
Just showed that with, they looked at 1100 undergraduate and graduate elementary school preparation programs.
Right?
So these are.
Programs that prepare future teachers and they find that they are coming up short in math content.
They are at most programs, are about one college credit short in teaching teachers the math content, and I think this is really interesting, is they're saying like.
Especially in the areas of numbers and operations, arithmetic and algebraic thinking, which is like the foundations of elementary school math, and they're saying college prep programs need to do better.
They need to give teachers more math content, and maybe that would solve some of that math phobia.
Gene Tavernetti: Maybe
I, you know, I think it's step in the right direction and it begs the question is how much math is enough.
I. You know, because I think that's one of the things that's different about math.
Math is a, an academic discipline that you can take, you can major in math.
Nobody majors in reading, you know, so you have people who know a lot of math.
They all have a lot of opinions on how much math a teacher should need to know to be able to teach elementary.
And it's usually much more than what anybody else thinks it is.
I know I talked to somebody who we respect a lot and I asked her how much math she thinks an elementary teacher needs.
She says, well, like pre-calc, you know?
And I thought, wow,
Holly Korbey: Yeah.
Gene Tavernetti: you know, that, that was way more than I thought.
I.
Holly Korbey: So one of the recommendations, one of the NCTQ recommendations is that colleges make new courses, math courses that are for elementary school teachers specifically.
And I think this is really interesting that a lot of general ed math.
College math courses are Algebra two and Beyond Pre-Calc and, you know, all these things, which is great to know, but a lot of teachers need foundations on fractions, decimals, whole numbers and the concepts behind them in order to teach those.
So I'm with you that like, I think this report has kind of convinced me that making courses.
Math courses, especially for elementary school teachers that focus on that content seems really important.
Gene Tavernetti: Here's a paradox.
I think, you know, as you do your teacher prep program, if you are in and I'm sure it varies from state to state, because I think.
I think you could still have a major in education in some places you can get a bachelor's degree.
Here in California you get a bachelor's degree.
In many times it's liberal arts, liberal studies.
And then you have some competency tests you need to pass to be able to get your credential.
But when you're in those teacher prep courses the thinking, the mindset.
Of the students in that course.
These future teachers are not, oh, I'm preparing to be a teacher.
That's how I'm, this is how I'm viewing this course to be successful as a teacher.
They're viewing it as, I need to be a successful student to pass this.
And there's, it's like ship's passing in the night, like, you're missing the big idea here.
You know that this is what you really, this is what you really need.
So.
Holly Korbey: That is really interesting to me.
So I did a story recently on how some teacher training programs are changing to look more like medical residencies.
So I did this story for the 74.
So one, you bring up a really good point that a lot of teacher prep programs are addressing.
They are putting.
They're undergraduate students into classrooms much earlier, and they are learning how to do things like one-on-one tutoring or they're shadowing or they're a para, right?
So they get into classrooms and that makes me wonder if it's to address this problem is that when you're an undergrad, they're like, we want you to look at these courses you're taking as a teacher would.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, it the, it's so complex.
I mean, you need to be able to, um, you know, hate to talk about cognitive load here, but you can only concentrate on one thing at a time.
If I'm an observer in a classroom, like one of the things that I always tell, I. Instructional coaches don't send a teacher who you're coaching in to watch a a veteran teacher or an expert teacher unless you're sitting right next to them to mediate what's going on.
Because it is so complex.
And that veteran teacher, you know, is at that fluency and generalization stage that, that you don't even know what's going on, you know, you know, so.
I think it, yeah, I think it's a step in the right direction.
You know, there needs to be you can't just send them in is what I'm saying.
I know my student teaching experience was a waste, you know, because exactly what I'm talking about.
I didn't know what was going on.
Plus I was way too smart.
You know, I, it was just too smart for this stuff.
Oh, one thing before we go too far, this is not going to be you know, published, you know, as a as a podcast for several weeks.
So just so that the folks know they can look in the substack.
When you published the article that you just talked about what date are we talking about you publishing the article on?
Holly Korbey: Today is Wednesday, April 9th, so.
It is.
Yeah, that, that report is, I published it this morning, so it is the April 9th bell Ringer newsletter.
Gene Tavernetti: Okay, great.
Great.
Okay.
I told you I'd get back to youth sports.
Holly Korbey: Let's go.
I have two teenage athletes,
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Well, and, I think we miss out.
You know, let me back up a little bit.
When I first started working in schools as a consultant, I never mentioned that I was a college athlete.
I never mentioned that I was a coach.
I never mentioned that I was a PE teacher because it's just gonna shut off.
Okay, we're gonna, we're gonna shut off.
But.
There are so many similar experiences, you know, about how we learn and you get how, you know, and we talked about this before, whether it's drama or you know, you're learning to dance something, everything's broken down into, you know, and there's, and the practice is guided and so, and all of that.
But I think there's one more that we can extend the metaphor.
And I think this takes care of.
One of the questions about how much math do you need to know?
So have your kids been in programs that have been very successful sports programs?
Holly Korbey: Yes.
Gene Tavernetti: So here's what I would bet.
I'm just gonna hallucinate that those high school coaches have had a lot of conversations with the coaches doing the lower levels.
And that guess what they're doing in the lower levels?
They're doing the same offense.
They're doing the same drills.
They're doing the same thing that they're going to know that they're gonna have to know when they get to high school.
Is it as complex?
No, but the point is that is a vertical articulation.
You know, that.
It's just, it is just based on where are we going?
So thoughts on that.
Holly Korbey: Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
I mean, I'm thinking about like, and I explained it to someone just this morning this way, but you know, I try to.
I think that sports are a way that people can see the science of learning more clearly because the steps to get good at sports are much clearer for people than like the steps to how you get good at math.
And so I try to say, you know, like no one would ever hand a football to a couple of kids and say, you're gonna discover.
The game of football, go out there and just try it, you know?
And just see if you can figure out how that would never happen.
No one would ever do that.
Because like you're saying, there is this very clear progression of skills and all the coaches know it from the high school to the middle school to down to the Pee wee football and that it's a very organized plan to move kids from one step to another.
And it's interesting that families.
Know that works.
Just like in, so my son, my oldest son didn't play sports that much.
He played the violin and he was in the Tennessee Youth Orchestra.
Same in music.
Everyone understands that you don't walk in and play Beethoven.
You start, he started when he was four years old playing Twinkle, twinkle Little Star and that it's a skill development over time and it's interesting to me that people can, that it's clearer to see in those kinds of pursuits than like math or reading.
Gene Tavernetti: And the irony is breaking those things down, breaking those skills down and practicing and all of that.
And that's how I wanted to prepare my, my players during the week, we're gonna break these things down and guess what, I was a performance based because on Friday night we had to go out in the public and perform.
So again, you know, this is not a mutually exclusive type of thing.
And I think, does that get in the way of math that we're looking at either or things or what wouldn't be found?
Holly Korbey: I mean, that's a really good question, and I think about it all the time.
Right, because you do, you know, if you're a basketball player, you do learn these discreet skills and then you have to go out on the floor and you have to figure out when to use them and under what circumstances.
But that's exactly the way math is because when you learn your multiplication tables and all these skills, then you get a story problem and you have to figure out.
How do I use what I know?
You know, like depending on the context of the situation, I think it's very similar, but because of how the public conceives academic learning, it's harder to wrap your mind around that.
But I think it's incredibly similar.
That's why I think sports is such a good metaphor.
Gene Tavernetti: So that's why there's no agreement.
So, what about evidence?
Why?
Why do some folks do not follow evidence, do you think?
Holly Korbey: I mean, this is a really complicated question.
You know that I think that we also are living in a time when the gatekeepers are gone as far as the amount of information that people can receive.
And so, because basically the internet, right?
Like because of the internet people can put all kinds of information out there, whether it's true or not, and in or varying levels of true.
And it's like information overload for people.
And so that's what makes it so hard to describe evidence, you know, and there was a lot of talk about this at research ed, about, you know.
All these products say that they're evidence-based, right?
But some evidence is better and higher quality than other evidence.
And so how do we help, especially school leaders and people who make these kinds of decisions.
Know the difference.
The best explanation that I've heard is a professor named Ben Solomon on Anna Stuckey's Chalk and Talk podcast.
He does such an excellent job.
They break down a study I. And he kind of highlights things in the study that are like red flags to him.
Like, that is not a high quality study and here's why.
And that kind of helped me.
But as far as like communicating that to the public gene, I mean, I am still on that journey.
What do you think, what do you think about talking to people about evidence and evidence-based practices?
Gene Tavernetti: Well, there's two groups of people who I talk to, the one group that really is into research.
Okay.
I'll take, well, just because it's a drinking game, you can, Zach, I'll talk to Zach.
You know, and I'll ask him a question about is there any research on such and such, you know, and he'll give me a name and he'll say, what you wanna know about the 2007 study or the 2013?
I mean, this is just off the top of his head, you know, and me, I'm not even interested in looking at the bibliography.
I don't even wanna see, you know, I just wanna know how this is going to impact teaching.
So I take people who I trust.
Okay with the evidence.
And then when I present to teachers, I don't need to present a lot of research.
In fact, I present very little because of what you just said before.
Everything is research based.
So I just describe what happens in the classroom and we talk about the fact that, you know, you know, when you use your lessons in the textbook, do the kids get overwhelmed?
Because there's so much content.
Yes.
Okay, well let's reduce it.
You know, we don't even have to say cognitive load because they know that this is true.
You know, so I go about it that way.
I am all about how is this going to impact the classroom?
I remember one study it was talking about and there's been various studies but.
About how, you know, the physical activity.
You know, like we need to, we need, the kids need to stand up and move during lessons and that sort of thing, just to get the oxygen moving again.
And I. One of the studies had, what they had done is they had kids go out to the track and walk around the track, and then they, I don't know how I don't remember the methodology but then they would gauge, you know, are they able to remember more after walking the track, et cetera.
And then, you know what some one school did?
They told the teachers to have class while walking around the track.
I mean, that's how goofy it gets.
So, so I think it goes back to what you know, had said about taking a look at, you know, and analyzing the research.
Evaluating the research.
But, um, I just talk about common sense stuff that they realize that works.
You know, another example is from Blake Harvard's book about the what is it, attention contagion or.
Holly Korbey: Right, right.
Gene Tavernetti: You know, and that's very clear.
I've been talking about that for years.
I never had a word for it.
But if you talk to secondary teachers, you will say, here's what happens.
You know, if you're providing too much content or you're talking too much, there'll be, you'll hear a couple students, you know, whispering, and then there'll be more students whispering.
And then there's this crescendo, and you, and the entire class is talking.
Why?
You know, because a contagion.
Plus too much, you know, too much content.
So what I'm saying is teachers get it.
You can describe how the research manifests and they get it, and we don't even have to talk about the research.
Holly Korbey: So that was one of my tips actually in my talk.
So that is something that I have found too.
So I. I did a story about an anonymous school leader.
He doesn't want his name out there.
He's in Michigan because his entire district, he's the only school in his district who's following cognitive science.
But he said, if you came into my elementary school and talked to my teachers and you said the word cognitive load theory or working memory, they would have no idea what you're talking about.
But he has talked to them in a, in this way gene, like this is what works.
And they all agree because they're teachers and they see it every day.
So like.
Overloading kids with too much content.
So he was like, I have totally couched it as this is common sense.
This is what works.
Let's stick to these principles.
And never said the word science of learning.
Gene Tavernetti: I think once we label anything, you know, once, once we label anything, like for example Lucy.
Okay.
Lucy Calkins.
Okay.
Once you talk about once, once her name comes up and you know, and you might ask a group of teachers.
So, so what's your reading program?
Oh, we do Lucy Calkins.
We do this once you name it.
Then it's easy to get rid of it, you know, even if there were good parts of it, you know, what are you doing now?
We used to do Lucy Calkins.
Now we're doing, you know, and I think that's a problem too.
But what's interesting about that is that what do what do publishers and people who sell programs wanna do?
They wanna brand their program.
so,
Holly Korbey: Right.
Yeah.
And I mean, and I have a little empathy for that too because, you know, if you're in the business of communication, you want something that sticks, you want a phrase or, you know, look at Emily Hanford in the Science of Reading, right?
Like, she has been so successful in getting that phrase to stick.
And it's important that people have a. Have a way to recall that, you know, like that body of work.
But I do understand what you're saying, that it does then mean that a lot of these things lose their meaning.
They lose the important stuff that's underneath it.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, it's always a joy.
Holly.
Hey Holly, you have any more questions for me?
Holly Korbey: I mean, not today.
I kind of wanna hear what did, what was the best thing you saw at researched?
Gene Tavernetti: The best thing I saw at research ed, I got to meet some people who I had wanted to meet before, and not even, I had never even had an interaction on online with them.
And so that was exciting to me.
I got to meet the writing revolution folks.
And that was important to me because I am very particular about who I want to mention.
Holly Korbey: Yes.
Gene Tavernetti: And when I saw what they did, they taught a sample lesson during the session, and I'm going, okay, so, I'm all in, I'm all in on this.
I mean, this makes so much sense.
So that was a big one for me.
Yeah.
Holly Korbey: Wonderful.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, Holly, let's not wait so long.
Holly Korbey: I know.
It's always a pleasure being here with you and I am so proud and happy for the Bell Ringer to sponsor this podcast.
That makes me very proud.
Gene Tavernetti: Oh, thank you Holly.
Me too.
And we will talk soon.
Holly Korbey: Great.
All right, have a great day, Jean.
I.
Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend.
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Tesscg.
com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.
Talk to you soon