1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,140 Hi, welcome to the Planetary Health for Busy 2 00:00:02,140 --> 00:00:05,080 People podcast. This is a series of short 3 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,320 podcasts to inspire hope and empower you as 4 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:11,480 an agent of change. I'm Dr. Ralph Levinson. 5 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:16,480 And I'm Luc Lewitanski. And today, let's 6 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,080 start by talking a bit about carbon 7 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:22,100 footprints. Luc, have you ever done one of 8 00:00:22,100 --> 00:00:25,460 those, one of those calculators for your 9 00:00:25,460 --> 00:00:27,720 carbon footprint? Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. I 10 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:29,760 did the whole tool and everything. I filled 11 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,600 out how much carbon I'm responsible for. And 12 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,980 I got a number at the end. It was quite scary. 13 00:00:34,980 --> 00:00:37,260 They said, if everybody lives like me, we'd 14 00:00:37,260 --> 00:00:40,320 need 50 planets. You know, I thought, oh my, 15 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,100 can we really live like this? I'm guessing a 16 00:00:44,100 --> 00:00:47,880 little hyperbole on the 50. But yeah, it is an 17 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,300 interesting exercise. I did it with a group 18 00:00:51,300 --> 00:00:54,600 of us doing it and comparing notes. And I did 19 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:56,900 actually two and got two very different 20 00:00:56,900 --> 00:01:00,060 answers. My carbon footprint. Yeah, yeah, 21 00:01:00,060 --> 00:01:02,200 my carbon footprint came out pretty good. I 22 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,160 mean, more, more than, more than one Earth, 23 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,040 although one, one of them said just a hair 24 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:13,880 more than one Earth. So okay, not bad. But the 25 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,020 other one said two Earths. And mine are on the 26 00:01:17,020 --> 00:01:20,720 low side, because I haven't been traveling 27 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,940 lately. So I don't have the jet air. I did, I 28 00:01:24,940 --> 00:01:28,100 did one where I, where I looked at before I got 29 00:01:28,100 --> 00:01:30,080 solar on my house before I had an electric 30 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,740 vehicle back when I used to travel. And I got 31 00:01:32,740 --> 00:01:35,760 over 3 Earths at that time, which is close to 32 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,180 the American 4 Earths, they say is what it 33 00:01:38,180 --> 00:01:41,080 takes to keep Americans below. So I think in 34 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:42,260 relative terms, it seems like it's 35 00:01:42,260 --> 00:01:43,980 interesting, you can track an evolution, 36 00:01:43,980 --> 00:01:45,800 right? You can you can see perhaps the tools 37 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,580 on the sort of objective marker. But but in 38 00:01:48,580 --> 00:01:50,700 relative terms, you said the EV vehicle 39 00:01:50,700 --> 00:01:54,280 change clearly impacted your score. So so 40 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,260 it's not entirely disconnected from no, 41 00:01:57,260 --> 00:02:00,340 absolutely. And, and there are some 42 00:02:00,340 --> 00:02:02,260 explanations for the differences between 43 00:02:02,260 --> 00:02:04,220 these two, although neither was totally 44 00:02:04,220 --> 00:02:06,960 transparent. I mean, I'm not saying if I 45 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,800 really contacted them, I couldn't have 46 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,980 found their assumptions. But it wasn't 47 00:02:11,980 --> 00:02:16,140 always really clear, nor needed to be what 48 00:02:16,140 --> 00:02:19,020 how the sausage was made, right? There's not 49 00:02:19,020 --> 00:02:22,880 like, how do they weight this versus that one 50 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:28,880 asked for process foods. And I wasn't to me, 51 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,580 that's like salami or something, you know, 52 00:02:31,580 --> 00:02:34,440 or, but you know, then when I looked up the 53 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,600 definition process foods, almost 54 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:38,360 everything I eat is process foods, almost 55 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,940 anything most of us eat as process foods, you 56 00:02:41,940 --> 00:02:44,660 know, past let's say an apple. So again, it 57 00:02:44,660 --> 00:02:47,000 was it was is a little bit like that one, the 58 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,060 one that came up with the higher number also 59 00:02:49,060 --> 00:02:50,520 made an assumption that there's a certain 60 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,200 amount of energy I as an American in South 61 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,380 Southern California use. And that's not 62 00:02:56,380 --> 00:02:58,800 unfair, because that's the problem of the 63 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,920 commons, right? It's the energy that it 64 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:03,560 takes to keep up my grid, that energy it takes 65 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:08,700 to keep up my roads. And so it you're right, as 66 00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:10,780 a as a comparative thing, as a relative 67 00:03:10,780 --> 00:03:15,220 thing, not bad, just not precise. The one 68 00:03:15,220 --> 00:03:18,480 from our power company was was really busy 69 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,200 asking us things like, All right, do you use 70 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,820 efficient light bulbs? Okay, now would you 71 00:03:24,820 --> 00:03:27,340 promise to use efficient light bulbs? How 72 00:03:27,340 --> 00:03:28,940 many do you think you'll use this year? 73 00:03:28,940 --> 00:03:30,860 That's what it was really all about. It was 74 00:03:30,860 --> 00:03:34,200 kind of manipulating people into promising 75 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,420 to use better light bulbs. Probably not the 76 00:03:37,420 --> 00:03:39,580 most important thing in the world. But, you 77 00:03:39,580 --> 00:03:42,180 know, that was that was their bias. I mean, if 78 00:03:42,180 --> 00:03:43,880 you're selling light bulbs, if you're in 79 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,060 that business, it might be particularly 80 00:03:46,060 --> 00:03:48,240 important speaking to the these metrics, 81 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:49,840 you know, possibly being game or 82 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,360 gameifiable. But yeah, no, that's right. 83 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,220 It's it is a matter of that kind of 84 00:03:55,220 --> 00:03:56,700 perspective, isn't it? And their 85 00:03:56,700 --> 00:03:59,160 perspective as a power company is, well, 86 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,100 they're selling you power, they want to, you 87 00:04:01,100 --> 00:04:02,960 know, they want everybody using the best 88 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:08,300 light bulbs and, and, and the most efficient 89 00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:10,640 utilities, washing machines, you know, and 90 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,080 all that, and being careful about whether 91 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,279 you use it in high power. So it had an 92 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,300 educational purpose, clearly. But then 93 00:04:19,300 --> 00:04:22,300 again, you know, talking to you about this, 94 00:04:22,300 --> 00:04:24,160 you told me something that kind of really 95 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,260 blew my mind about where these carbon 96 00:04:26,260 --> 00:04:29,420 footprints come from, Luke. Why don't you 97 00:04:29,420 --> 00:04:31,620 share that? That's a thing, right? As I was 98 00:04:31,620 --> 00:04:33,140 looking a little bit further into this, 99 00:04:33,140 --> 00:04:35,540 something sort of didn't sit quite right 100 00:04:35,540 --> 00:04:39,280 with me because it was so hyper 101 00:04:39,280 --> 00:04:40,880 individualized. Even the solutions you're 102 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:42,460 thinking about with the example of the power 103 00:04:42,460 --> 00:04:44,180 company, it's like, oh, you can buy these 104 00:04:44,180 --> 00:04:45,920 different light bulbs. And I'm thinking, 105 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:47,720 you know, your figure of like each American 106 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,960 consumes about four planets. You know, 107 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,140 this, this ultimately is the product of like 108 00:04:55,140 --> 00:04:57,860 infrastructure spending and sort of larger 109 00:04:57,860 --> 00:04:59,240 structural forces. And so I'm thinking, 110 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,140 like, why was this research spotlighted? 111 00:05:02,140 --> 00:05:03,620 And it turns out that this was sort of an 112 00:05:03,620 --> 00:05:05,300 obscure piece of academic research that 113 00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:07,540 that wouldn't be in common parlance. If it 114 00:05:07,540 --> 00:05:09,740 were not for this initiative, this this 115 00:05:09,740 --> 00:05:12,020 major ad campaign that British petroleum 116 00:05:12,020 --> 00:05:15,580 ran in 2006, actually part of their 117 00:05:15,580 --> 00:05:18,000 rebranding for British petroleum to beyond 118 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,740 petroleum, which is a classic form of them 119 00:05:20,740 --> 00:05:25,400 trying to green up their image, let's say, as 120 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:27,360 the classic term goes. But so anyways, they, 121 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,680 they did this massive sort of ad spend where 122 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,700 they had testimonials of people saying, Oh, 123 00:05:31,700 --> 00:05:33,920 am I really responsible for the climate? You 124 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:35,060 know, asking people what the carbon 125 00:05:35,060 --> 00:05:37,040 footprint is. What size is your carbon 126 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,980 footprint? Ah, the carbon footprint there. 127 00:05:40,980 --> 00:05:44,200 Whatever it is, the whole population of the 128 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,420 world make big numbers. How much carbon I 129 00:05:47,420 --> 00:05:51,420 produce. You mean the effect that my living 130 00:05:51,420 --> 00:05:53,540 has on the earth in terms of the products I 131 00:05:53,540 --> 00:05:56,020 consume? BP made a calculator that let 132 00:05:56,020 --> 00:05:57,800 anybody work out their own carbon 133 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,180 footprint. And they made sure people knew 134 00:06:00,180 --> 00:06:02,900 about it. BP crafted the carbon footprint as 135 00:06:02,900 --> 00:06:04,980 a way to get people to blame themselves for 136 00:06:04,980 --> 00:06:07,260 climate change instead of oil companies. 137 00:06:07,260 --> 00:06:08,500 You know, asking people what the carbon 138 00:06:08,500 --> 00:06:10,360 footprint is popularizing this idea in 139 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,340 people's mind, because ultimately, it was a 140 00:06:12,340 --> 00:06:14,740 very good tool to get people to think of their 141 00:06:14,740 --> 00:06:16,980 main relationship to environmental issues 142 00:06:16,980 --> 00:06:19,040 as being about individual consumption 143 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,100 choices, not about thinking about larger 144 00:06:21,100 --> 00:06:23,140 political investment decisions, but 145 00:06:23,140 --> 00:06:25,220 rather about individual choices. And 146 00:06:25,220 --> 00:06:28,220 that's probably why BP had this vested 147 00:06:28,220 --> 00:06:31,040 interest in popularizing this tool. And 148 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:32,580 ultimately, it's not to say that the science 149 00:06:32,580 --> 00:06:34,080 is bunk. You know, as we've said, there's 150 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,220 some, there's some range in terms of how 151 00:06:36,220 --> 00:06:39,760 useful or, or, or measurable, what are some 152 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:41,160 or what are all these tools are. Yeah, 153 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:42,920 exactly about the assumptions that you were 154 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,360 listing. So, so we can criticize the 155 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,340 methodology, but ultimately still find use 156 00:06:48,340 --> 00:06:51,640 in this. But as you say, there's something 157 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,900 about the origin, or at least the 158 00:06:53,900 --> 00:06:56,500 popularizing of this particular tool that 159 00:06:56,500 --> 00:07:00,500 should, you know, give us a pause for 160 00:07:00,500 --> 00:07:03,620 thought. That's at least. Yeah. Oh, 161 00:07:03,620 --> 00:07:07,700 absolutely. And, and I really had no idea. 162 00:07:07,700 --> 00:07:10,480 And you mentioned sort of greening up BP, 163 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,040 which of course brings us to the topic of 164 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,820 greening up things, sort of upcycling the 165 00:07:17,820 --> 00:07:23,000 greenness. And, and that brings us to 166 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,260 greenwashing. An amazingly important 167 00:07:26,260 --> 00:07:30,220 topic. And, and something that is just 168 00:07:30,220 --> 00:07:32,960 really ubiquitous. I mean, it's all over the 169 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:38,020 place. So let's talk about greenwashing 170 00:07:38,020 --> 00:07:40,780 and, and look, how would you, how would you 171 00:07:40,780 --> 00:07:42,460 define it? There are several definitions, 172 00:07:42,460 --> 00:07:46,480 but what do you think? So to me, I think this 173 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,820 is, this is the idea of companies after 174 00:07:49,820 --> 00:07:51,820 initially trying to spread doubt about the 175 00:07:51,820 --> 00:07:53,380 reality of climate change, you know, the 176 00:07:53,380 --> 00:07:55,860 fossil fuel companies initially, 177 00:07:55,860 --> 00:07:58,540 internally did research on the impact of 178 00:07:58,540 --> 00:08:00,260 their activities on the climate, realized 179 00:08:00,260 --> 00:08:01,860 they were doing horrible things for the 180 00:08:01,860 --> 00:08:04,360 earth, but then tried to convince us of this 181 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,300 not being an issue for a few years. And after 182 00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:08,060 they sort of lost that battle, they realized 183 00:08:08,060 --> 00:08:11,260 that in order to continue attracting 184 00:08:11,260 --> 00:08:13,320 shareholder investments, and just in 185 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,120 general, in order to continue having a 186 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,760 positive reputation as brands, that they 187 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,520 needed to redefine themselves as not being 188 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,440 the major contributors to climate change 189 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:24,620 and the people who suppress the 190 00:08:24,620 --> 00:08:26,500 information, but rather as being on the 191 00:08:26,500 --> 00:08:28,480 forefront of the vanguard of energy 192 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:29,940 transitions. And you'll often find this 193 00:08:29,940 --> 00:08:33,059 sort of BS language to try and cover up the 194 00:08:33,059 --> 00:08:34,559 activities, right? So I think the classic 195 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,440 example of thinking of, you know, what 196 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,700 happened when British petroleum changed 197 00:08:38,700 --> 00:08:40,539 their name to beyond petroleum? Well, you 198 00:08:40,539 --> 00:08:41,940 know, they had to like redo their logo. 199 00:08:41,940 --> 00:08:43,220 That's basically what happened. It's not 200 00:08:43,220 --> 00:08:44,820 like they restructured the whole business, 201 00:08:44,820 --> 00:08:46,680 you know, they had a few press releases. But 202 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:48,720 ultimately, that's, that's the real thing 203 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,860 with greenwashing. It's about keeping up 204 00:08:50,860 --> 00:08:53,420 appearances. It's once, once these fossil 205 00:08:53,420 --> 00:08:55,460 fuel producing companies have understood 206 00:08:55,460 --> 00:08:59,240 that the tide has turned and people are going 207 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:00,740 to be upset at them, if they think of them as 208 00:09:00,740 --> 00:09:03,920 polluters, they need to have some type of 209 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,420 opposite reaction to give themselves a 210 00:09:07,420 --> 00:09:10,440 better reputation. But it's just sort of 211 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,180 just like money laundering that they're 212 00:09:12,180 --> 00:09:15,900 taking this, this investment and they're 213 00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:18,820 using it in order to make themselves look 214 00:09:18,820 --> 00:09:20,660 good. And it often seems like programs like 215 00:09:20,660 --> 00:09:23,300 carbon offsets, you know, a large amount of 216 00:09:23,300 --> 00:09:24,760 what's actually spent in the carbon offset 217 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,700 programs is popularizing and spreading the 218 00:09:27,700 --> 00:09:29,240 good word about the programs that are being 219 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:30,460 used. There's a lot more money spent on 220 00:09:30,460 --> 00:09:32,060 communicating all these good things that 221 00:09:32,060 --> 00:09:34,240 companies are doing for the climate than 222 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,660 they're actually spending. They're more 223 00:09:36,660 --> 00:09:37,860 interested in telling you about the good 224 00:09:37,860 --> 00:09:39,220 things that they're doing than actually 225 00:09:39,220 --> 00:09:40,480 doing good things to the environment. And 226 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:41,920 ultimately, who can blame them? You know, if 227 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:43,740 their goal is to maximize shareholder 228 00:09:43,740 --> 00:09:47,280 value, then that's just them fulfilling 229 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,380 their purpose. But perhaps we can think 230 00:09:49,380 --> 00:09:51,620 there's something a little cynical about 231 00:09:51,620 --> 00:09:55,140 this structure. I was not sure. Yes, I, I 232 00:09:55,140 --> 00:09:59,520 think a little cynical is very kind, Luc. And 233 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,780 it's interesting how much in, in our world 234 00:10:03,780 --> 00:10:07,520 gets justified by shareholder interests. 235 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:14,320 It really is the mantra. And as respectful, 236 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,660 respectful as I want to be about the grease 237 00:10:17,660 --> 00:10:21,680 that keeps things going, there seems to me 238 00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:24,040 there ought to be a limit. And the real fact 239 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,480 is, as much as I am happy to agree with 240 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,980 everything you've said about the oil 241 00:10:31,980 --> 00:10:35,580 companies and their nefarious lies, there 242 00:10:35,580 --> 00:10:38,780 is a fact that greenwashing isn't limited 243 00:10:38,780 --> 00:10:43,040 to, to oil companies. As a matter of fact, 244 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:48,100 greenwashing, again, is much more subtle in 245 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:52,260 many cases. It's, it's certainly not just 246 00:10:52,260 --> 00:10:55,960 even big industries, it's products. It's, 247 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:01,220 it's the, it's the, the nice stream and 248 00:11:01,220 --> 00:11:03,660 beautiful evergreen trees on your water 249 00:11:03,660 --> 00:11:06,540 bottle, you know, on your plastic water 250 00:11:06,540 --> 00:11:09,860 bottle, you know, I don't know that I've seen 251 00:11:09,860 --> 00:11:13,140 happy swimming dolphins, you know, on water 252 00:11:13,140 --> 00:11:15,160 bottles, but, you know, I guess because it's 253 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:19,200 not salt water. But, you know, it's, it's, 254 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,420 it's, there's so many levels of it. In 255 00:11:23,420 --> 00:11:28,720 looking into this, I saw that the EU a couple 256 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,620 of years ago decided that half of the oil 257 00:11:30,620 --> 00:11:30,620 companies, you know, were going to be 258 00:11:30,620 --> 00:11:32,250 greenwashing, you know, I was just over 259 00:11:32,250 --> 00:11:36,550 half, 53% of labels, 53% of products had some 260 00:11:36,550 --> 00:11:39,030 level of greenwashing. And they were just 261 00:11:39,030 --> 00:11:41,090 defining greenwashing as something that 262 00:11:41,090 --> 00:11:44,650 makes a claim for being environmentally at 263 00:11:44,650 --> 00:11:47,250 least friendly, at least compatible, when 264 00:11:47,250 --> 00:11:50,230 it really isn't. And at least the claim isn't 265 00:11:50,230 --> 00:11:52,830 true. It's more subtle when you're looking 266 00:11:52,830 --> 00:11:55,470 at the pretty green or some beautiful 267 00:11:55,470 --> 00:11:57,750 running creek, you know, for the water 268 00:11:57,750 --> 00:11:59,870 bottle when you know that they didn't get it 269 00:11:59,870 --> 00:12:02,890 from a beautiful running creek. And matter 270 00:12:02,890 --> 00:12:04,670 of fact, in the United States, most running 271 00:12:04,670 --> 00:12:09,370 creeks are full of forever poisons and toxic 272 00:12:09,370 --> 00:12:12,690 chemicals. And you can't really eat the fish 273 00:12:12,690 --> 00:12:15,930 that you, that without risking poisoning 274 00:12:15,930 --> 00:12:20,150 yourselves with PFA's in the United States. 275 00:12:20,150 --> 00:12:23,630 So a picture of a beautiful running creek on a 276 00:12:23,630 --> 00:12:28,050 water bottle is by definition misleading in 277 00:12:28,050 --> 00:12:30,590 greenwashing, even if it wasn't for the 278 00:12:30,590 --> 00:12:34,250 plastic bottle. Anyway, there's a lot of 279 00:12:34,250 --> 00:12:38,710 greenwashing out there. Besides BP, let's 280 00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:40,870 go back to the big ones. You know, the one that 281 00:12:40,870 --> 00:12:43,810 I think probably is one of the biggest ones 282 00:12:43,810 --> 00:12:47,650 that people write about recently is the 283 00:12:47,650 --> 00:12:50,310 Volkswagen example. I mean, when when they 284 00:12:50,310 --> 00:12:53,470 were pretending like they were saying how 285 00:12:53,470 --> 00:12:56,010 green they are, how wonderful they were. 286 00:12:56,010 --> 00:12:57,990 Right. They were just complying with the 287 00:12:57,990 --> 00:13:00,030 regulations. It wasn't them being like, 288 00:13:00,030 --> 00:13:03,110 look how great we are. They were basically on 289 00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:04,870 the one hand, they were on the one hand, they 290 00:13:04,870 --> 00:13:07,290 were saying we're a green alternative. This 291 00:13:07,290 --> 00:13:10,370 is great. Use our diesel. It's efficient. We 292 00:13:10,370 --> 00:13:13,090 have this great product. It's not perfect, 293 00:13:13,090 --> 00:13:15,130 but it's a great product friendly with the 294 00:13:15,130 --> 00:13:16,630 environment. At the same time, they were 295 00:13:16,630 --> 00:13:19,610 manipulating the software so that when you 296 00:13:19,610 --> 00:13:22,950 it looked like they were green and it looked 297 00:13:22,950 --> 00:13:25,350 like their emissions were very low, but they 298 00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:27,090 weren't. When they were passing the 299 00:13:27,090 --> 00:13:29,770 inspections, they lowered the amount of 300 00:13:29,770 --> 00:13:32,250 emissions that they were emitting just just 301 00:13:32,250 --> 00:13:34,870 for the specific seconds. The software knew 302 00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:37,360 how to detect if it was being inspected. And 303 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:38,750 at that time it would be like, oh, this is an 304 00:13:38,750 --> 00:13:40,370 economically responsible car and that 305 00:13:40,370 --> 00:13:42,530 would be a usual gas guzzler, even though as 306 00:13:42,530 --> 00:13:44,370 you're saying it was marketed. Well, that's 307 00:13:44,370 --> 00:13:46,830 just a ghost gas guzzler. Just say emissions 308 00:13:46,830 --> 00:13:50,730 emitter. Yes, yes. Right. A toxin emitter. I 309 00:13:50,730 --> 00:13:52,620 don't know what their gas mileage was, but 310 00:13:52,620 --> 00:13:55,470 the emissions were horrible. Or at least 311 00:13:55,470 --> 00:13:57,710 nowhere near what they said. I may have still 312 00:13:57,710 --> 00:13:59,390 been better than some other cars, but 313 00:13:59,390 --> 00:14:02,690 nowhere near where they said. And they got in 314 00:14:02,690 --> 00:14:05,270 trouble for this. They got in big trouble. 315 00:14:05,270 --> 00:14:10,470 They got a $4 billion criminal finding 316 00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:13,550 against them in the United States. So far, I 317 00:14:13,550 --> 00:14:16,630 understand it's something like 32 billion 318 00:14:16,630 --> 00:14:18,690 euros, which is about the same as dollars 319 00:14:18,690 --> 00:14:22,590 worldwide, what it cost them. And two of 320 00:14:22,590 --> 00:14:25,830 their executives went to jail. Yeah, I mean, 321 00:14:25,830 --> 00:14:28,710 that's we know. Really rare. Yeah, white 322 00:14:28,710 --> 00:14:30,810 color crime is you could you could tank the 323 00:14:30,810 --> 00:14:34,210 entire economy as has happened in 2000, you 324 00:14:34,210 --> 00:14:37,830 know, and eight and nobody goes to jail. But 325 00:14:37,830 --> 00:14:41,470 they just made that. They just it was just so 326 00:14:41,470 --> 00:14:43,310 obvious. It was these guys were 327 00:14:43,310 --> 00:14:46,510 responsible. I mean, decisions had to be 328 00:14:46,510 --> 00:14:50,070 made and somebody had to actually do this. 329 00:14:50,070 --> 00:14:51,410 You know, they couldn't hide behind. Oh, 330 00:14:51,410 --> 00:14:53,290 it's market forces or something. You know, 331 00:14:53,290 --> 00:14:56,250 somebody had to write that software. So 332 00:14:56,250 --> 00:14:57,710 that's one of my favorite examples. There's 333 00:14:57,710 --> 00:14:59,450 lots of others, but that's a big one. I think 334 00:14:59,450 --> 00:15:02,950 everybody should know that, you know, it's 335 00:15:02,950 --> 00:15:08,550 it's, you know, it's very illustrative. It 336 00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:12,170 really is. It could be as subtle as a label. I 337 00:15:12,170 --> 00:15:14,830 mean, and or it could be as major as a 338 00:15:14,830 --> 00:15:17,030 corporation just gaming the system 339 00:15:17,030 --> 00:15:20,150 totally. Literally, actually gaming the 340 00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:22,750 system. But it's this idea that they're sort 341 00:15:22,750 --> 00:15:23,910 of speaking through the corners of their 342 00:15:23,910 --> 00:15:26,150 mouth, that then they know that what they're 343 00:15:26,150 --> 00:15:28,070 doing is just performative, virtue 344 00:15:28,070 --> 00:15:30,430 signaling. They're just trying to seem like 345 00:15:30,430 --> 00:15:31,930 they're working to be environmentally 346 00:15:31,930 --> 00:15:33,770 friendly because they know that will create 347 00:15:33,770 --> 00:15:35,790 a good association with inter-central 348 00:15:35,790 --> 00:15:37,770 customers mindsets and they'll they'll 349 00:15:37,770 --> 00:15:39,690 feel like they want to spend money towards 350 00:15:39,690 --> 00:15:42,050 buying this company's product. But the 351 00:15:42,050 --> 00:15:44,070 disconnect there is that they're knowingly 352 00:15:44,070 --> 00:15:47,130 doing something completely futile. And 353 00:15:47,130 --> 00:15:48,330 therefore it's counterproductive that 354 00:15:48,330 --> 00:15:50,530 they're using the attention and the good 355 00:15:50,530 --> 00:15:52,150 will that we have around wanting to do 356 00:15:52,150 --> 00:15:53,330 something about the climate. And they're 357 00:15:53,330 --> 00:15:57,610 channeling it into like performative BS, 358 00:15:57,610 --> 00:16:00,850 just to make themselves look good. And then 359 00:16:00,850 --> 00:16:02,470 people think that they're acting 360 00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:04,310 environmentally by consuming this 361 00:16:04,310 --> 00:16:06,510 company's products that is falling for the 362 00:16:06,510 --> 00:16:11,930 trick. And in fact, that's the difference. 363 00:16:11,930 --> 00:16:13,610 You know, when we want to say somebody's 364 00:16:13,610 --> 00:16:15,950 virtue signaling or performative, you 365 00:16:15,950 --> 00:16:17,590 could say, oh, well, I kind of did that 366 00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:19,410 earlier because I said, well, I have solar 367 00:16:19,410 --> 00:16:21,290 and I'm an electric vehicle. That's between 368 00:16:21,290 --> 00:16:24,370 me and you and the listeners. But when a 369 00:16:24,370 --> 00:16:26,430 company does it, it's fraud. It's stealing 370 00:16:26,430 --> 00:16:29,930 your money. It's stealing your goodwill. 371 00:16:29,930 --> 00:16:34,070 You know, when it's from my ego, you know, 372 00:16:34,070 --> 00:16:36,610 it's a minor social for part, you know, when 373 00:16:36,610 --> 00:16:39,070 it's a company, people bought their cars 374 00:16:39,070 --> 00:16:41,750 thinking that they had an ecologically 375 00:16:41,750 --> 00:16:43,650 sound product. People thought they were 376 00:16:43,650 --> 00:16:45,730 doing something good. It's praying upon the 377 00:16:45,730 --> 00:16:47,770 people. They were doing something good to be 378 00:16:47,770 --> 00:16:49,170 environmental. That's the pernicious 379 00:16:49,170 --> 00:16:53,610 aspect. It's using people's impulse to want 380 00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:56,350 to help and perverting it towards these 381 00:16:56,350 --> 00:17:00,930 deceitful ends. Exactly. Exactly. You 382 00:17:00,930 --> 00:17:03,570 know, and this goes all the way down the line. 383 00:17:03,570 --> 00:17:06,349 It's it's it's true with the labeling. If it 384 00:17:06,349 --> 00:17:08,530 makes you feel better about buying a plastic 385 00:17:08,530 --> 00:17:10,790 disposable bottle that nobody's going to 386 00:17:10,790 --> 00:17:13,630 recycle. But it's also true for a lot of 387 00:17:13,630 --> 00:17:15,970 labeling. I mean, you know, everybody who's 388 00:17:15,970 --> 00:17:18,010 listening should be aware that things like 389 00:17:18,010 --> 00:17:20,250 the term green, you know, you would think, 390 00:17:20,250 --> 00:17:22,109 oh, that must have a technical definition. 391 00:17:22,109 --> 00:17:24,810 Something is green or and it doesn't, you 392 00:17:24,810 --> 00:17:27,250 know, it doesn't. Or if it says, I mean, 393 00:17:27,250 --> 00:17:29,190 there's really no definition to it. I mean, I 394 00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:32,490 mean, short of that you purposely added a 395 00:17:32,490 --> 00:17:34,950 known carcinogenic pollutant, you could 396 00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:38,530 call anything green. It is. There's no 397 00:17:38,530 --> 00:17:40,190 regulation about that, at least in the 398 00:17:40,190 --> 00:17:43,190 United States. I'm not so sure about the EU. 399 00:17:43,190 --> 00:17:46,850 The I know they're trying to make organic. 400 00:17:46,850 --> 00:17:48,870 There's labels around organic is 401 00:17:48,870 --> 00:17:52,050 different. I, you know, just say 402 00:17:52,050 --> 00:17:54,750 ecologically friendly or green. That's 403 00:17:54,750 --> 00:17:57,350 different from organic. Organic does have 404 00:17:57,350 --> 00:18:01,090 fairly strict regulations. And what the 405 00:18:01,090 --> 00:18:03,910 companies will often do is they'll get a 406 00:18:03,910 --> 00:18:06,910 they'll have a made up company that 407 00:18:06,910 --> 00:18:09,170 certifies them. We know how this kind of 408 00:18:09,170 --> 00:18:12,350 circular, you know, the Lumber Company does 409 00:18:12,350 --> 00:18:14,210 that. It's just made up by the Lumber 410 00:18:14,210 --> 00:18:18,250 companies. Oh, by the way, just to say in 411 00:18:18,250 --> 00:18:20,530 terms of legislation, if you think 412 00:18:20,530 --> 00:18:26,710 something is really fraudulent, you can in 413 00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:28,370 the United States get in touch with the 414 00:18:28,370 --> 00:18:31,650 Federal Trade Commission, the FTC. There, I 415 00:18:31,650 --> 00:18:35,070 mean, there are mechanisms when it says 416 00:18:35,070 --> 00:18:37,290 pathetically illegal and fraudulent as the 417 00:18:37,290 --> 00:18:39,510 Volkswagen. But you can't do that about, 418 00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:43,710 say, the Lumber Companies made up company 419 00:18:43,710 --> 00:18:46,490 because they made up a company. Right. It has 420 00:18:46,490 --> 00:18:48,970 to be a deal to a judge. And an airtight case. 421 00:18:48,970 --> 00:18:51,510 It's hard to prove that there's deceit and 422 00:18:51,510 --> 00:18:52,970 fraud, unless they're, as you're saying, in 423 00:18:52,970 --> 00:18:54,670 the Volkswagen case, you know, they had to 424 00:18:54,670 --> 00:18:56,070 design software that was specifically 425 00:18:56,070 --> 00:18:58,430 evading the regulation that that seems it's 426 00:18:58,430 --> 00:19:00,820 easy to to see where the fraud would be. But 427 00:19:00,820 --> 00:19:02,770 there are some like you mentioned the 428 00:19:02,770 --> 00:19:05,210 organic and there are legitimate 429 00:19:05,210 --> 00:19:08,010 organizations that that do regulate that 430 00:19:08,010 --> 00:19:12,990 that certify and regulate that. And there is 431 00:19:12,990 --> 00:19:16,650 one of the things we could consider doing is, 432 00:19:16,650 --> 00:19:21,170 for example, the NRDC has a list of groups 433 00:19:21,170 --> 00:19:24,810 that are legitimate. For example, the 434 00:19:24,810 --> 00:19:27,530 I-Star energy ratings in the United States 435 00:19:27,530 --> 00:19:30,030 are legitimate, although one company was 436 00:19:30,030 --> 00:19:32,290 found just frankly lying about their 437 00:19:32,290 --> 00:19:34,410 refrigerators. You know, they've just 438 00:19:34,410 --> 00:19:36,670 lied, you know, that's different. That's 439 00:19:36,670 --> 00:19:38,010 the kind of thing you could call the FTC 440 00:19:38,010 --> 00:19:39,890 about. Yeah, that's shameful. That's the 441 00:19:39,890 --> 00:19:46,330 LG. Yep. Yep. And, uh, yeah, it is, isn't it? 442 00:19:46,330 --> 00:19:50,130 They just somebody just decided to lie. I and 443 00:19:50,130 --> 00:19:54,330 even legitimate ones can make mistakes. 444 00:19:54,330 --> 00:20:01,370 There was an example of, um, uh, IKEA, which 445 00:20:01,370 --> 00:20:06,750 did a was was busted for do getting illegal 446 00:20:06,750 --> 00:20:13,750 wood from the Ukraine. And, um, they used a 447 00:20:13,750 --> 00:20:16,110 legitimate group that was supposed to the 448 00:20:16,110 --> 00:20:19,030 group just messed up. They just, I don't know 449 00:20:19,030 --> 00:20:21,010 if it was hidden, but the group just messed 450 00:20:21,010 --> 00:20:24,010 up. Now, so there are things like for the 451 00:20:24,010 --> 00:20:26,030 organic, you know, I think that it's 452 00:20:26,030 --> 00:20:28,390 important to realize that, you know, that 453 00:20:28,390 --> 00:20:31,030 they're going to manipulate you. But here's 454 00:20:31,030 --> 00:20:33,250 an example I want to give, you know, a typical 455 00:20:33,250 --> 00:20:36,730 thing is, for example, toilet paper, you 456 00:20:36,730 --> 00:20:39,890 mentioned carbon offsets. And so for toilet 457 00:20:39,890 --> 00:20:41,710 paper, they'll say, Hey, we're carbon 458 00:20:41,710 --> 00:20:43,970 neutral because we plant trees. What they 459 00:20:43,970 --> 00:20:47,130 don't tell you is that the trees will take 460 00:20:47,130 --> 00:20:51,150 years to start making up for what was cut 461 00:20:51,150 --> 00:20:53,630 down. What they don't tell you is that they 462 00:20:53,630 --> 00:20:56,010 may have cut down old growth forest that was 463 00:20:56,010 --> 00:20:59,970 part of an ecosystem. And instead they're 464 00:20:59,970 --> 00:21:04,010 doing a cash crop stand of, you know, 465 00:21:04,010 --> 00:21:06,670 evergreen pines of some sort, some fast 466 00:21:06,670 --> 00:21:09,150 growing tree that has nothing near the 467 00:21:09,150 --> 00:21:14,450 ecological, umph, the ecological standing 468 00:21:14,450 --> 00:21:17,270 that of what they cut down. So in other words, 469 00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:21,830 they may well buy some carbon offsets, but it 470 00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:24,570 doesn't mean that it's really an equivalent 471 00:21:24,570 --> 00:21:26,350 that it really makes up. It's because they 472 00:21:26,350 --> 00:21:28,350 don't, they don't care about the actual 473 00:21:28,350 --> 00:21:29,450 impact. As like you said, they want 474 00:21:29,450 --> 00:21:30,850 something that'll grow fast that they can 475 00:21:30,850 --> 00:21:33,310 take a picture of and make it look green, 476 00:21:33,310 --> 00:21:35,010 right? It's again, it's very much about 477 00:21:35,010 --> 00:21:37,330 appearances that there's no earnest 478 00:21:37,330 --> 00:21:40,010 efforts to engage with their impact on the 479 00:21:40,010 --> 00:21:43,550 climate. This is why it's, uh, you know, um, 480 00:21:43,550 --> 00:21:45,670 arguably something. So the bottom line is, 481 00:21:45,670 --> 00:21:48,770 bottom line is if it looks too good to be true, 482 00:21:48,770 --> 00:21:52,970 it's probably not, uh, be vigilant and buyer 483 00:21:52,970 --> 00:21:56,990 beware because they'll lie to you. Yeah. And 484 00:21:56,990 --> 00:21:58,830 I'm not pleasant thought. Well, and maybe, 485 00:21:58,830 --> 00:22:00,470 maybe there is, you know, not, not to see it as 486 00:22:00,470 --> 00:22:03,410 entirely cynical. I, I, I think, uh, part of 487 00:22:03,410 --> 00:22:05,170 the reason why these companies are so 488 00:22:05,170 --> 00:22:07,890 excited in, uh, in making themselves seem 489 00:22:07,890 --> 00:22:09,170 like they're taking matters into their own 490 00:22:09,170 --> 00:22:10,990 hands is because they don't want the 491 00:22:10,990 --> 00:22:13,130 regulators breathing down their neck, uh, 492 00:22:13,130 --> 00:22:14,950 to actually punish them for the climate 493 00:22:14,950 --> 00:22:16,750 impacts they're having. And if there's 494 00:22:16,750 --> 00:22:18,930 popular unrest against these companies 495 00:22:18,930 --> 00:22:21,310 actions, then people might put pressure on 496 00:22:21,310 --> 00:22:23,950 their legislators to start, uh, you know, 497 00:22:23,950 --> 00:22:25,810 upping the environmental regulations and 498 00:22:25,810 --> 00:22:27,970 requirements. So, yeah. Absolutely. 499 00:22:27,970 --> 00:22:30,130 Absolutely. That's why we need to keep this 500 00:22:30,130 --> 00:22:31,790 vigilant. And you know, we have to have 501 00:22:31,790 --> 00:22:34,330 skepticism, uh, with regard to these 502 00:22:34,330 --> 00:22:37,090 companies, uh, healthy skepticism. And, 503 00:22:37,090 --> 00:22:38,970 and on the positive, another positive note 504 00:22:38,970 --> 00:22:40,030 where I thought you might have been going 505 00:22:40,030 --> 00:22:43,730 with that is very simply that they're doing 506 00:22:43,730 --> 00:22:45,970 this because it sells because a lot of people 507 00:22:45,970 --> 00:22:48,870 care, right? And, and, and they wouldn't be 508 00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:51,010 doing this if they didn't, you know, they're 509 00:22:51,010 --> 00:22:53,050 not doing it just for fun and they're, 510 00:22:53,050 --> 00:22:55,770 they're doing it because they're, they're 511 00:22:55,770 --> 00:22:58,090 exploiting the fact that we care. Yeah. The 512 00:22:58,090 --> 00:23:00,090 good news being, is that enough people care 513 00:23:00,090 --> 00:23:01,790 for them to do that? Yeah. That's, that's a 514 00:23:01,790 --> 00:23:03,410 silver lining. The fact that it's a good 515 00:23:03,410 --> 00:23:05,350 business for them to appear as though 516 00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:06,770 they're taking action on the environment 517 00:23:06,770 --> 00:23:10,970 means that there is, uh, a lot of people who 518 00:23:10,970 --> 00:23:13,550 respond positively to this. And that, as you 519 00:23:13,550 --> 00:23:17,210 say, speaks to the fact that people are, uh, 520 00:23:17,210 --> 00:23:20,030 aware of the issues with the environment and 521 00:23:20,030 --> 00:23:21,570 want to do something about it. We just have to 522 00:23:21,570 --> 00:23:23,370 make sure it's channeled towards earnest, 523 00:23:23,370 --> 00:23:25,230 uh, efforts to do something about it and not 524 00:23:25,230 --> 00:23:30,970 just ways to get good PR. Exactly. And on that 525 00:23:30,970 --> 00:23:34,170 plus what Luc? Nice talking to you. I think we 526 00:23:34,170 --> 00:23:35,610 see ya Luc. See you.