WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.820 Marta Perrotta: We had some chapters from scholars and other from 00:00:02.880 --> 00:00:10.050 practitioners, and so we all asked, answered the question, what kind of 00:00:10.290 --> 00:00:12.450 journalism is podcasting becoming? 00:00:12.450 --> 00:00:17.040 How does it address the challenges, uh, facing the news industry, 00:00:17.040 --> 00:00:22.560 which is audience disengagement, sustainability, uh, trust. 00:00:23.310 --> 00:00:27.869 The topic of trust in sound media is something very important. 00:00:30.090 --> 00:00:33.089 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing studies, a podcast for higher education 00:00:33.089 --> 00:00:35.160 podcasters to learn and get inspired. 00:00:35.339 --> 00:00:40.650 I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium Podcast Company, and HigherEdPods.com. 00:00:41.610 --> 00:00:44.280 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm JenniferLee, founder of JPod Creations. 00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:45.750 Podcasting is broadcasting. 00:00:45.750 --> 00:00:47.459 We want you to know you're not alone. 00:00:47.489 --> 00:00:50.610 In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there, and 00:00:50.610 --> 00:00:52.170 we can all learn from each other. 00:00:52.620 --> 00:00:53.550 Neil McPhedran: Absolutely Jen. 00:00:53.610 --> 00:00:59.129 And on the note of learning from each other, I'm super excited to let you know 00:00:59.190 --> 00:01:06.900 that we have launched the Slack channel in Higher Ed Pods, so off the back of 00:01:06.900 --> 00:01:12.360 the Higher Ed PodCon and the excitement there and all of the face to face-to-face 00:01:12.600 --> 00:01:16.545 community building and meeting each other, we have launched the Slack channel. 00:01:16.605 --> 00:01:21.705 We just did it yesterday morning and we already have over 20 00:01:21.705 --> 00:01:24.165 people in there, so please join. 00:01:24.165 --> 00:01:31.740 So if you go to HigherEdPods.com, and if you join, you become a member, 00:01:31.860 --> 00:01:33.809 no charge right now for any of that. 00:01:34.139 --> 00:01:34.710 All free. 00:01:35.190 --> 00:01:40.139 And if you do that as part of the signup, you will get an 00:01:40.169 --> 00:01:42.570 invite to the Slack channel. 00:01:42.690 --> 00:01:44.371 So please go do that and join us. 00:01:44.765 --> 00:01:45.245 Jennifer-Lee: Awesome. 00:01:45.275 --> 00:01:46.355 I'm excited about this. 00:01:46.355 --> 00:01:47.825 This is also very exciting. 00:01:48.095 --> 00:01:50.645 We are heading to Italy in this episode. 00:01:50.645 --> 00:01:51.215 I love this. 00:01:51.215 --> 00:01:53.135 We get to travel all the time. 00:01:54.035 --> 00:01:55.235 Neil McPhedran: Well, I like how you say that, Jen. 00:01:55.295 --> 00:01:55.865 It is true. 00:01:55.865 --> 00:02:01.415 I'm loving how We have chatted with a few folks from Europe. 00:02:01.415 --> 00:02:08.725 We got a couple more coming up and today we are chatting with Marta Perrotta. 00:02:09.410 --> 00:02:12.799 I know for sure I got that pronunciation totally, totally wrong, 00:02:12.799 --> 00:02:15.350 but I'm trying, Marta, if you're listening to this, I am trying. 00:02:15.709 --> 00:02:20.959 Okay, so Marta is an associate professor at the University of Roma 00:02:20.989 --> 00:02:24.230 Tre, that's in Italy as we talked about. 00:02:24.649 --> 00:02:30.500 She's also the director of Roma Tre Radio, which is the radio 00:02:30.500 --> 00:02:32.299 station for the university. 00:02:32.660 --> 00:02:39.835 She is among the co-founders of the International Research Network, which is 00:02:39.835 --> 00:02:45.655 funded by the European Commission, and if that's not enough, she's also research 00:02:45.655 --> 00:02:51.810 coordinator, and kind of the force behind WePod, which is, we produce podcasts. 00:02:52.320 --> 00:02:53.010 It's very cool. 00:02:53.275 --> 00:03:02.100 It's this cross border collaboration for podcast producers and it's also funded 00:03:02.100 --> 00:03:05.340 and supported by the European Commission. 00:03:05.850 --> 00:03:07.050 And we get into that. 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:08.160 We really get into that. 00:03:08.160 --> 00:03:10.890 Actually we get into everything 'cause she's doing so much Jen. 00:03:11.460 --> 00:03:13.290 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm pretty sure she invited us to Italy too. 00:03:13.290 --> 00:03:14.310 So I'm so game. 00:03:14.310 --> 00:03:16.920 So let's get into the conversation. 00:03:17.510 --> 00:03:18.230 Neil McPhedran: We're going to Italy. 00:03:18.900 --> 00:03:19.440 Jennifer-Lee: Going. 00:03:20.834 --> 00:03:21.494 Neil McPhedran: Well, hello Marta. 00:03:21.494 --> 00:03:24.225 It's so nice to have you here with us today. 00:03:24.225 --> 00:03:25.785 Thanks for joining us. 00:03:26.505 --> 00:03:28.244 Marta Perrotta: Thank you for, uh, inviting me. 00:03:29.234 --> 00:03:31.695 Neil McPhedran: So, Marta, you're associate professor 00:03:31.755 --> 00:03:34.184 at Roma Tre University. 00:03:34.184 --> 00:03:37.665 So maybe before we jump into all the amazing stuff you're doing in the 00:03:37.665 --> 00:03:41.204 world of podcasting, why don't you just sort of tell us a little bit about 00:03:41.234 --> 00:03:43.575 what you teach at Roma Tre University. 00:03:44.340 --> 00:03:48.000 Marta Perrotta: I teach radio and television, and I teach digital 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:53.100 media, and the one is for the BA and the second one is for the MA. And 00:03:53.100 --> 00:03:58.620 also I have responsibility of the college radio station, Roma Tre Radio. 00:03:59.700 --> 00:04:04.605 Also, I am, um, a deputy director for the communication. 00:04:04.815 --> 00:04:08.084 Uh, so I'm also into institutional communication and 00:04:08.084 --> 00:04:09.765 promotion for the university. 00:04:10.484 --> 00:04:13.454 And I have a background in podcast studies and in, uh, 00:04:13.515 --> 00:04:15.285 television and uh, radio studies. 00:04:15.285 --> 00:04:20.594 So as a media scholar mostly I am interested into the, uh, digital 00:04:20.594 --> 00:04:26.565 disruption for broadcasting and also the sound part of the broadcasting 00:04:26.565 --> 00:04:28.755 media is very much interesting for me. 00:04:28.995 --> 00:04:34.455 And also I have a line of research on women and radio, and I focus on 00:04:34.455 --> 00:04:38.445 podcast as a disruption for radio. 00:04:38.445 --> 00:04:43.875 So it's all connected to, to the production studies, uh, 00:04:43.875 --> 00:04:46.784 approach I give to my research. 00:04:48.135 --> 00:04:48.795 Jennifer-Lee: I love that. 00:04:48.795 --> 00:04:51.685 Digital disruption of radio. 00:04:51.735 --> 00:04:53.085 That's, that's my favorite. 00:04:53.085 --> 00:04:57.795 This is like what Neil knows I love to nerd out, because I always say that 00:04:57.795 --> 00:05:00.645 podcasting is the rebirth of radio. 00:05:00.885 --> 00:05:03.125 We're doing a lot of the same things. 00:05:03.255 --> 00:05:07.755 But podcasting is the vessel, and the vessel is a little bit more global 00:05:07.965 --> 00:05:13.365 than opposed to radio, which it is more localized and community filled because 00:05:13.365 --> 00:05:17.445 you are tied to a terrestrial radio tower. 00:05:17.475 --> 00:05:22.395 So I was like, oh, Marta, I'm excited to talk to you about this today because 00:05:22.395 --> 00:05:24.315 this is one of my favorite topics. 00:05:24.555 --> 00:05:28.995 And the fact that you're teaching at a university, I always say, 00:05:29.215 --> 00:05:32.175 and we had someone on earlier too, to talk about this, it's like, 00:05:32.520 --> 00:05:34.410 broadcasting programs are changing. 00:05:34.500 --> 00:05:37.920 Some schools are doing it better than others, and 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:39.420 there's just so much potential. 00:05:39.510 --> 00:05:40.560 This is what makes me excited. 00:05:42.780 --> 00:05:45.780 Marta Perrotta: I love to talk about that because I love to connect my 00:05:45.780 --> 00:05:50.790 different fields of research and also to make some practice of that. 00:05:50.790 --> 00:05:54.270 Because in production studies for broadcasting and podcasting 00:05:54.270 --> 00:05:56.845 is very important to be part of the production as well. 00:05:57.780 --> 00:06:00.720 Jennifer-Lee: And podcasting is really unique in the fact when we 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:06.180 get to the university space is, yes, anyone can start podcasting. 00:06:06.180 --> 00:06:07.165 That's nice thing about it. 00:06:07.890 --> 00:06:12.960 But it's, we're kind of getting into this area of podcasting is still very 00:06:12.960 --> 00:06:17.909 young and so a lot of people are not necessarily training in podcasting. 00:06:17.909 --> 00:06:18.989 Like you can teach yourself. 00:06:18.989 --> 00:06:21.510 There's a lot of YouTube videos out there and things like that. 00:06:21.809 --> 00:06:25.530 A lot of people come from public relations or uh, marketing 00:06:25.530 --> 00:06:26.969 backgrounds, which is awesome. 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:30.890 But I think we're starting to see now that you do need some other 00:06:30.890 --> 00:06:32.780 skills, and it's not just mic skills. 00:06:33.020 --> 00:06:35.840 It's not just storytelling skills, it's production skills. 00:06:35.840 --> 00:06:36.920 It's a lot of different hats. 00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:39.860 So I love the fact that these programs are starting to think 00:06:39.860 --> 00:06:43.550 about that because there is no traditional education for podcasting. 00:06:43.790 --> 00:06:44.660 There is for broadcasting. 00:06:45.585 --> 00:06:49.065 Marta Perrotta: Yeah, and you can borrow a lot from other medias 00:06:49.095 --> 00:06:51.705 like, uh, movie, like television. 00:06:52.095 --> 00:06:57.225 It's all the fields of the production in creative industries can teach 00:06:57.555 --> 00:06:59.055 a little bit about podcasting. 00:06:59.055 --> 00:07:05.180 And that's also why when we think about podcasts, we know that it has a 00:07:05.180 --> 00:07:12.320 potential for other adaptation and to, to be this starting brick for a very 00:07:12.320 --> 00:07:14.840 big construction in content production. 00:07:14.840 --> 00:07:18.620 So it's really good to be focused on that, but also to know that 00:07:18.740 --> 00:07:22.700 the multimedia, intermedial production can grow around that. 00:07:23.270 --> 00:07:26.390 Neil McPhedran: I think, and Jen, you were kind of alluding to it, but the journalism 00:07:26.390 --> 00:07:28.770 side, which is not my background. 00:07:28.770 --> 00:07:32.130 I've come to, you know, as we've talked about before on the show, I've come to 00:07:32.130 --> 00:07:36.900 podcasting through the world of digital marketing and digital content production. 00:07:36.900 --> 00:07:40.620 But the journalism side is where you've, you've come from, Jen. 00:07:40.620 --> 00:07:42.240 And Marta, that's your expertise. 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:46.710 So specifically, you've actually put out or published a journal called 00:07:47.755 --> 00:07:50.520 Podcast in the Future of Journalism. 00:07:50.925 --> 00:07:53.295 That's the English translation version of it. 00:07:53.745 --> 00:07:56.805 And I connected with you through Carl Hartley, who was on a couple 00:07:56.805 --> 00:08:01.005 of episodes ago, and he, I believe, wrote a chapter in, in your book. 00:08:01.005 --> 00:08:02.535 So this sounds super interesting. 00:08:03.195 --> 00:08:06.765 I'd love to hear more about your new journal that you've published and 00:08:07.155 --> 00:08:11.775 maybe sort some of the findings about podcasting in the future of journalism. 00:08:12.375 --> 00:08:14.445 Marta Perrotta: Yeah, it's a book, actually. 00:08:14.445 --> 00:08:17.145 I edited the book after a call. 00:08:17.145 --> 00:08:20.114 I launched at the end of 2023. 00:08:20.775 --> 00:08:25.604 This book and this call is part of a big project we have 00:08:25.604 --> 00:08:30.885 been did with my university and uh, selected media in Europe. 00:08:30.965 --> 00:08:36.005 Because we participated into a bid for the creative Europe fund 00:08:36.095 --> 00:08:41.225 that was going to fund projects in digital transformation of journalism. 00:08:41.284 --> 00:08:47.015 And me, together with representatives of, uh, big and small media in Europe. 00:08:47.015 --> 00:08:49.565 One of them is PRISA, the group. 00:08:49.685 --> 00:08:54.365 PRISA is the group of the EL PAÍS, the, the newspaper in Spain, Chora Media, 00:08:54.365 --> 00:08:59.075 which is a podcast producer in Italy, Europod, the podcast producer in Belgium. 00:08:59.675 --> 00:09:05.195 We together developed a project of co-production of podcasting for 00:09:05.585 --> 00:09:10.770 media outlets and, uh, specifically for the journalistic part of them. 00:09:11.160 --> 00:09:17.400 My goal in this project as well, I was the only, uh, academic person inside, was to 00:09:17.640 --> 00:09:23.730 study the process of the co-production in a cross-cultural situation for podcasting. 00:09:24.180 --> 00:09:28.440 And that's particularly, um, interesting for Europe, which is 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:31.050 a multilingual, uh, continent. 00:09:31.050 --> 00:09:37.185 And also the space for connected and related productions in 00:09:37.185 --> 00:09:39.615 podcasting is not so common. 00:09:39.975 --> 00:09:44.925 I mean, it has been, it is for television, uh, for movies of course, 00:09:44.925 --> 00:09:47.025 but not for radio and podcasting. 00:09:47.655 --> 00:09:53.670 Uh, all the experiments, uh, in radio have been very hard to be brought on. 00:09:55.020 --> 00:10:01.290 So we tried to develop a project of journalistic co-production in order to see 00:10:01.290 --> 00:10:07.740 how journalistic content can be adapted in different countries, but also develop 00:10:07.740 --> 00:10:11.689 and conceived in different countries together in order that journalists 00:10:11.689 --> 00:10:16.849 work together and then, uh, produce podcasts in their own languages, which is 00:10:16.849 --> 00:10:19.699 something really is not so common, right? 00:10:19.810 --> 00:10:24.770 At least the way, before the call, we counted like 10 or 15 00:10:24.829 --> 00:10:26.369 examples all over the world. 00:10:27.129 --> 00:10:33.140 So as part of this big project that we have been winning in, uh, late, uh, 2022, 00:10:33.140 --> 00:10:39.475 and that started in 2023, I launched the call for, um, academic reflection 00:10:39.475 --> 00:10:45.205 on the topic of the transformation of journalism practices through podcasting. 00:10:45.715 --> 00:10:49.315 And this was, uh, not only focused on cross border co-productions, 00:10:49.315 --> 00:10:53.965 of course it was, um, focused on several, uh, experiences all over 00:10:53.965 --> 00:11:00.375 the world where, uh, we can see how podcasting a, a brought a significant 00:11:00.375 --> 00:11:03.584 transformation in journalistic practices. 00:11:04.275 --> 00:11:10.305 Uh, because it has been changing how stories are told, how they're distributed 00:11:10.814 --> 00:11:13.275 and how they engage, uh, with audiences. 00:11:13.275 --> 00:11:16.545 So we keep Serial as a benchmark, of course, for 00:11:16.545 --> 00:11:19.920 investigative series or The Daily. 00:11:20.100 --> 00:11:25.530 So these well known examples, I mean, they, they have market turning points 00:11:25.589 --> 00:11:32.400 and, uh, so I wanted to build something and to raise academics around the topic 00:11:32.400 --> 00:11:39.630 of how has been, uh, podcast transforming journalism in this 20 years, at least in 00:11:39.630 --> 00:11:42.451 the last 10 within the big WePod project. 00:11:42.451 --> 00:11:45.270 That's the, the name of the project, of the co-production. 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:50.220 We edited this collection of 11 chapters that is open access. 00:11:50.220 --> 00:11:54.060 You can, um, download it for free and it's, uh, it's there. 00:11:54.060 --> 00:11:57.360 Or the chapter of Carl, Carl is there, of course. 00:11:57.780 --> 00:11:59.820 Neil McPhedran: We'll put a link in our show notes to it for sure. 00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:00.750 Marta Perrotta: Yes, please. 00:12:00.780 --> 00:12:01.780 Please do it. 00:12:02.460 --> 00:12:06.450 And so it's also interesting because we had some chapters from scholars 00:12:06.450 --> 00:12:08.370 and other from practitioners. 00:12:09.030 --> 00:12:15.099 And so we all, uh, asked, answer the question, what kind of 00:12:15.219 --> 00:12:17.380 journalism is podcasting becoming? 00:12:17.410 --> 00:12:22.209 How does it address the challenges, uh, facing the news industry, which 00:12:22.209 --> 00:12:28.240 is, um, audience disengagement, sustainability, uh, trust. 00:12:29.160 --> 00:12:33.750 The topic of trust in sound media is something very important. 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:38.940 We have in the EBU, in European Broadcasting Union research, every 00:12:38.940 --> 00:12:43.230 year we see that the most trusted journalist is the one of radio. 00:12:43.230 --> 00:12:47.130 So it's a sound media that is more trusted than the visual one. 00:12:47.820 --> 00:12:53.460 And that link was very important to have this same question about podcast 00:12:53.670 --> 00:12:59.385 journalism, which is sound and which is, has to be clear, has to be quick, has 00:12:59.385 --> 00:13:06.314 to be simple for the audience, uh, but also can be closer to young listeners, 00:13:06.345 --> 00:13:11.595 young audiences, which are more and more detached from consuming news. 00:13:12.105 --> 00:13:17.220 So all these topic came together.\ Across the various chapters. 00:13:17.250 --> 00:13:21.990 And we have also some analysis of co-productions and also some 00:13:21.990 --> 00:13:25.680 reflections about models of journalism around the globe. 00:13:25.710 --> 00:13:30.570 So it's, I think it's, even if it's, it started in the European project is more, 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:32.880 uh, global for, uh, as a perspective. 00:13:33.570 --> 00:13:37.560 Jennifer-Lee: I think what you just hit on was like, so important because I 00:13:37.560 --> 00:13:42.210 think that's a lot of thing is everyone's like, oh, radio is dying, TV is dying. 00:13:43.155 --> 00:13:44.084 The news is dying. 00:13:44.084 --> 00:13:46.814 It's not, journalism is not dying. 00:13:46.814 --> 00:13:48.735 We're still gonna need the news. 00:13:48.795 --> 00:13:51.915 It's just transferring to where your audience is. 00:13:51.975 --> 00:13:55.515 So that's the thing is I think what you guys are doing with WePod and everything 00:13:55.515 --> 00:13:58.005 is you're finding your audience. 00:13:58.305 --> 00:14:00.555 And again, I think that's a huge discussion, and this is 00:14:00.555 --> 00:14:01.785 gonna be with it with anything. 00:14:01.785 --> 00:14:06.314 Because podcasting is not regulated it is very hard when you come 00:14:06.314 --> 00:14:10.694 from an industry that is so regulated like the news industry. 00:14:11.155 --> 00:14:15.354 So it's like you're finding that fine balance of all these broadcasters that 00:14:15.354 --> 00:14:18.564 are trusted are needing jobs because they're getting cut left, right, and 00:14:18.564 --> 00:14:20.214 center on the traditional stations. 00:14:21.474 --> 00:14:24.685 And they have something to say and bringing them onto podcast is great, 00:14:25.194 --> 00:14:28.525 maybe with the accreditation 'cause sometimes BBC and, and other ones do 00:14:28.525 --> 00:14:32.359 like this, under those banners, but then it's like, how do you weed out, 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:37.740 you know, Joe that starts his own podcast and he talks about politics 00:14:37.740 --> 00:14:40.740 and maybe he's swayed to one side. 00:14:40.740 --> 00:14:40.830 Marta Perrotta: Yes. 00:14:41.975 --> 00:14:48.660 Uh, yeah, I mean we, in the project we have, uh, produced six co-productions 00:14:49.230 --> 00:14:55.410 and it's really, um, interesting to see how different distinct national 00:14:55.410 --> 00:15:00.480 ecosystems, national context, and national ideas of what the headaches 00:15:01.290 --> 00:15:07.939 of some kind of journalism and also, the practices of journalism can mix and 00:15:07.939 --> 00:15:10.280 can find a balance, as you were saying. 00:15:10.760 --> 00:15:14.989 I think that one of the best experiences of this project has been the last 00:15:14.989 --> 00:15:19.609 podcast that has been released, which is, uh, called The Right Kind of Family. 00:15:19.880 --> 00:15:22.849 It's big production in seven languages. 00:15:23.300 --> 00:15:27.260 Among them there is English and French of course, but also Hungarian, 00:15:27.260 --> 00:15:31.849 Polish, German, Italian, and Spanish. 00:15:32.580 --> 00:15:38.430 And it's really a work, it's a co-production of four journalists 00:15:38.790 --> 00:15:42.060 that have been traveling and reporting together across Europe. 00:15:42.510 --> 00:15:48.660 It, it took, uh, one year and a half to be ready from the first meeting for the 00:15:49.380 --> 00:15:55.530 developing the concept until the last episode release that was last Tuesday. 00:15:56.100 --> 00:16:03.255 And it's really an example of how in the field of podcasting even if you 00:16:03.255 --> 00:16:10.245 have rules in each country, and also you have tradition, uh, practice tradition 00:16:10.245 --> 00:16:16.214 in, in every, in every context, and you need to look for different balances and 00:16:16.214 --> 00:16:19.185 different, uh, also way of cooperation. 00:16:19.185 --> 00:16:24.620 And it's, uh, it has been the, also the topic of this, this, this production 00:16:24.620 --> 00:16:28.310 is really, is really, uh, delicate. 00:16:28.310 --> 00:16:30.260 It's really, uh, sensible. 00:16:30.260 --> 00:16:35.960 It's, it's about, uh, female bodies and the policies about, uh, 00:16:35.990 --> 00:16:38.090 reproduction in all the countries. 00:16:38.420 --> 00:16:45.270 Even if there are no, um, explicit politics in every country about that, 00:16:45.660 --> 00:16:51.390 it's the, the lobbying around the body control, the main theme of the production. 00:16:51.569 --> 00:16:56.490 So the journalists traveled from Spain to Hungary, from Italy, uh, 00:16:56.520 --> 00:17:01.830 to Poland, uh, and they really discovered connections that are not so 00:17:02.125 --> 00:17:04.540 evident, uh, in the public discourse. 00:17:04.540 --> 00:17:08.410 So it's really something that only a podcast could do 00:17:08.500 --> 00:17:10.600 for the time that it took. 00:17:11.050 --> 00:17:14.680 Also, there is a European grant, uh, behind that, uh, it has been 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:20.740 funded and has been produced with the idea of really, uh, engaging the 00:17:20.740 --> 00:17:23.500 audience into the very relevant topic. 00:17:23.500 --> 00:17:26.319 And, uh, I think it's gonna be huge. 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:32.200 I, I don't know any listening, uh, trends yet because it's a, it was just released. 00:17:32.260 --> 00:17:36.700 But I, I hope that it will be listened a lot in all the, in 00:17:36.700 --> 00:17:38.680 the language is, uh, is produced. 00:17:39.550 --> 00:17:40.030 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:17:40.030 --> 00:17:41.140 I'm looking at it right now. 00:17:41.140 --> 00:17:43.810 We'll, and we'll definitely put a, a link to this as well too. 00:17:43.810 --> 00:17:51.400 So I think this is fascinating, and you're right, like it points out how podcasting 00:17:51.520 --> 00:17:57.610 is such a unique medium to be able to tackle something like this cross border. 00:17:58.034 --> 00:17:59.325 It would take a while. 00:17:59.325 --> 00:18:03.075 There's a lot of journalistic requirements, a lot of journalistic 00:18:03.075 --> 00:18:07.245 work, so the, the time continuum to put something like this together doesn't 00:18:07.245 --> 00:18:09.495 necessarily work as well with radio. 00:18:10.065 --> 00:18:14.264 But then this, the fact that it's produced then in seven languages and 00:18:14.264 --> 00:18:17.565 you're identifying this political network, what's called the political 00:18:17.565 --> 00:18:19.225 network of values, just reading it there. 00:18:19.245 --> 00:18:23.504 This sort of global network of conservative and far right organizations 00:18:24.375 --> 00:18:29.114 that is sort of subversively, you know that it's there but we don't see it 00:18:29.745 --> 00:18:33.344 in all different countries and all the different languages or whatever. 00:18:33.344 --> 00:18:35.804 And so this is a really interesting medium. 00:18:35.804 --> 00:18:40.725 So the WePod project is really fascinating and I guess there's so much there. 00:18:41.625 --> 00:18:45.765 You've got all of the, you know, you've got the partnership of all the production 00:18:45.765 --> 00:18:49.965 organizations, the funding, 'cause that's required for, for things like 00:18:49.965 --> 00:18:52.205 big journalistic projects like this too. 00:18:52.235 --> 00:18:54.405 So, there's a lot of podcasts in there. 00:18:54.675 --> 00:18:56.655 It, it's super interesting. 00:18:57.044 --> 00:19:00.165 Marta Perrotta: It also has an IP marketplace. 00:19:00.465 --> 00:19:04.965 The website has developed a platform for a IP marketplace of podcasting, 00:19:05.034 --> 00:19:07.095 that is open to every producer. 00:19:07.485 --> 00:19:13.514 So everyone can put content and, and just say it's open for adaptation, 00:19:13.514 --> 00:19:18.135 for the selling to the rights of the podcast to be a, to become a 00:19:18.135 --> 00:19:22.570 book, or to do a translation or adaptation to other languages. 00:19:22.689 --> 00:19:26.800 Uh, it's also a place where European podcasters can meet and 00:19:26.800 --> 00:19:29.199 can grab some tools for production. 00:19:29.199 --> 00:19:35.290 There is a tool, uh, box to, to be explored to help, uh, producers, 00:19:35.290 --> 00:19:40.209 uh, from conceptualization into the scene of the rights and the, all the 00:19:40.209 --> 00:19:45.810 tools and help podcasters in, uh, in producing all the pipeline, the podcast. 00:19:45.810 --> 00:19:52.740 And also, um, we would like to launch the European Association of Podcast Creators. 00:19:53.260 --> 00:20:00.180 So it's coming more and more complex, but as a place where to start doing pressure 00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:06.300 on the commission to, uh, offer more space in the, in the policies, in the European 00:20:06.300 --> 00:20:08.969 policies because it's no longer a niche. 00:20:09.149 --> 00:20:13.830 Uh, it's a central part of how people engage with, uh, news or 00:20:13.830 --> 00:20:16.530 entertainment and public life as well. 00:20:16.620 --> 00:20:21.570 So it, uh, is been raising question of ethics, question of, uh, sustainability. 00:20:21.840 --> 00:20:26.189 And we really need Europe to be aware of that besides all 00:20:26.189 --> 00:20:27.689 the other creative industries. 00:20:27.689 --> 00:20:33.525 So, it's, uh, it's, it's one of the main task of this project, and only the 00:20:33.525 --> 00:20:39.675 media can be so heavy in that because as a university I can give support 00:20:39.675 --> 00:20:45.015 with research, but the pressure on the politics is not so my job at the moment. 00:20:45.015 --> 00:20:49.425 But with the association that has, um, academics and producers and media, 00:20:49.455 --> 00:20:51.885 maybe this is more easy in there. 00:20:51.885 --> 00:20:53.265 It's more effective. 00:20:54.555 --> 00:20:59.145 Jennifer-Lee: And the ethics part, again, just always fascinates me. 00:20:59.175 --> 00:21:03.975 'Cause I always talk about journalistic integrity and is it something 00:21:03.975 --> 00:21:06.135 that you even teach your students? 00:21:06.285 --> 00:21:08.835 Because it's something that everyone needs to know. 00:21:08.835 --> 00:21:13.754 But it's so funny because in podcasting it actually doesn't really happen sometimes. 00:21:14.385 --> 00:21:14.804 Marta Perrotta: Yeah. 00:21:15.675 --> 00:21:20.205 You know, I have a team at Roma Tre and I don't teach journalism and I 00:21:20.205 --> 00:21:25.875 don't teach to future journalists, I mean, the ethics and all the production 00:21:25.905 --> 00:21:30.465 processes and in journalism, because I'm more focused on entertainment format. 00:21:30.895 --> 00:21:35.864 So I have a colleague that does so, and we, we happen to have, uh, lessons 00:21:35.864 --> 00:21:43.360 together and we, we start from very famous examples of journalistic podcasting 00:21:43.360 --> 00:21:49.750 from Serial, of course, to Caliphate, to other cases that can be very, um, 00:21:50.380 --> 00:21:55.570 interesting in terms of the way the journalist is included in the narration. 00:21:55.570 --> 00:22:02.410 But yeah, students are really interested in, uh, learning and also in listening, 00:22:02.470 --> 00:22:06.370 and it's something that I, I have been teaching radio since 2003. 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:13.350 And I've been, uh, witnessing a very, uh, incredible transformations in 00:22:13.350 --> 00:22:18.630 terms of listening skills of the, of the students and also in terms of the 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:26.910 interest into sound, into the language of radio and podcasting through podcasting. 00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:32.460 So now in the radio at the university, we have a lot of people that come 00:22:32.550 --> 00:22:35.490 because they listen to podcast and then they start to do radio. 00:22:35.970 --> 00:22:41.580 So it's uh, really interesting this, um, I mean this catchy side of 00:22:41.730 --> 00:22:44.010 podcasting, uh, because it's cool now. 00:22:44.700 --> 00:22:53.280 But also it's interesting how the students discover, for instance, very old programs 00:22:53.280 --> 00:22:58.920 of the radio, of the seventies, of the eighties, and they realize how much they 00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:03.450 have to get off with the history of radio. 00:23:04.635 --> 00:23:08.265 Neil McPhedran: I wanna circle back to the WePod project. 00:23:08.295 --> 00:23:11.085 I think I would encourage everyone listening to go have a look at this. 00:23:11.475 --> 00:23:14.475 There's, you know, so you've got all the podcasts that are in there, then there's 00:23:14.475 --> 00:23:17.395 a toolbox, there's a knowledge section. 00:23:17.465 --> 00:23:20.775 And then you mentioned the IP marketplace, but then there's 00:23:20.775 --> 00:23:23.115 also a talent section for sharing. 00:23:23.295 --> 00:23:27.790 So people, I would imagine they could, uh, like audio engineers could put 00:23:27.790 --> 00:23:28.870 their, their services or whatever. 00:23:29.199 --> 00:23:33.580 But the thing that's really interesting is this notion of, you know, we 00:23:33.580 --> 00:23:38.469 were The Right Kind of Family is the example here, but that is in, as you 00:23:38.469 --> 00:23:40.990 mentioned, is in 1, 2, 7 languages. 00:23:41.379 --> 00:23:45.000 And what's interesting about that is you can click through to each 00:23:45.110 --> 00:23:52.754 version, each version has its own RSS feed in Apple and so on and so forth. 00:23:52.754 --> 00:23:57.584 But then they're all interconnected and I, I think this is a really interesting 00:23:57.584 --> 00:24:02.385 project because I think we as podcasters kinda live in our language silo. 00:24:02.774 --> 00:24:03.135 Marta Perrotta: Yeah. 00:24:03.254 --> 00:24:05.385 Neil McPhedran: In our feed, in our one feed. 00:24:05.385 --> 00:24:08.745 And what this is doing is creating this network. 00:24:09.014 --> 00:24:13.814 So it's one big project and one big journalism focus as we've discussed. 00:24:13.845 --> 00:24:17.834 So it all comes together on the website, but then each one lives separately 00:24:18.405 --> 00:24:23.205 at the end of the line on Apple and Spotify and so on and so forth. 00:24:23.235 --> 00:24:26.925 I just think like there must be a lot that you sort of learned about doing that, 00:24:26.925 --> 00:24:28.935 and it just really opens it up, I think. 00:24:29.835 --> 00:24:30.405 Marta Perrotta: Yeah. 00:24:30.405 --> 00:24:30.764 Uh, yeah. 00:24:30.825 --> 00:24:38.685 The, the idea was to give each partner its space as for, um, 00:24:39.525 --> 00:24:44.055 everyone has it's, uh, language silo as you, as you mentioned before. 00:24:44.755 --> 00:24:50.925 But it's very important to show the connections to the audience. 00:24:50.985 --> 00:24:56.385 Because if you listen to them, you understand from each language that 00:24:56.385 --> 00:24:59.145 there is collaborative work behind that. 00:24:59.264 --> 00:25:01.995 Besides the funding, and besides all the names and all the 00:25:01.995 --> 00:25:03.645 creatives and all the projects. 00:25:04.064 --> 00:25:08.294 You don't know as a audience because I'm into, so much deep into the 00:25:08.385 --> 00:25:13.905 introduction, but I would love to make interviews with audience to understand 00:25:13.905 --> 00:25:20.740 what they get from this global, at least cross-cultural conceptualization. 00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:27.670 If there is some idea of international inquiry, international, because 00:25:28.210 --> 00:25:34.210 actually I prefer to listen to my native language version, is Italian of course. 00:25:34.630 --> 00:25:40.889 And from that I feel, uh, that is told in a way that speaks to me directly, 00:25:41.070 --> 00:25:42.840 in the way a good podcast does. 00:25:42.840 --> 00:25:47.850 Always though as, uh, uh, finding connections to our daily lives. 00:25:48.649 --> 00:25:53.280 Uh, and I, I think that this is an effect that this in every 00:25:53.550 --> 00:25:57.909 version and it's really important. 00:25:58.580 --> 00:26:05.685 Yeah, so from a listening point of view, it would be great at the end 00:26:05.685 --> 00:26:12.705 of the project in August, uh, 2025 to find out the sides of the audience 00:26:12.705 --> 00:26:17.355 of all the podcasts, putting together all the data of the different media. 00:26:18.075 --> 00:26:19.425 Neil McPhedran: That's what I was thinking about too. 00:26:19.575 --> 00:26:22.365 That part is super fascinating. 00:26:22.365 --> 00:26:25.275 But it's also just for these big journalistic, like you're right, 00:26:25.275 --> 00:26:27.825 like you want, like I would wanna listen to the English version. 00:26:28.035 --> 00:26:31.575 You're gonna wanna listen to the Italian version, like some in France is gonna 00:26:31.575 --> 00:26:33.705 wanna listen to the French version. 00:26:34.215 --> 00:26:40.485 But it's an important journalistic project that is one, it's the output 00:26:40.485 --> 00:26:46.229 from this collaborative cross border, cross-cultural journalistic project, 00:26:46.560 --> 00:26:52.290 but at the same time, the end listener is consuming it in the language that's 00:26:52.290 --> 00:26:58.770 natural to them and there's, culturally would be sort of relevant to them as well. 00:26:58.770 --> 00:27:03.635 It just from a journalistic perspective, it really opens up the aperture for 00:27:03.665 --> 00:27:09.335 opportunity for these cross border and cross-cultural endeavors that I think 00:27:09.335 --> 00:27:13.265 that instead of getting caught into your own little world and you're translating 00:27:13.265 --> 00:27:14.675 and you know, and so on and so forth. 00:27:14.675 --> 00:27:19.655 So maybe before we go, you also are a podcaster and as we sort of set off the 00:27:19.655 --> 00:27:24.695 top, I know this is of interest to Jen, is women in podcasting and women in radio. 00:27:24.695 --> 00:27:29.285 Just maybe tell us a little bit about own personal podcasting, uh, adventure. 00:27:29.285 --> 00:27:29.945 Marta Perrotta: Yeah. 00:27:30.705 --> 00:27:37.575 It has been a project for the sensory of radio in Italy last year, 2024, 00:27:38.055 --> 00:27:44.115 the public service commissioned an investigation on the female, uh, leading 00:27:44.115 --> 00:27:47.655 roles in the radio of the, the sensory. 00:27:48.135 --> 00:27:51.405 It's really hard to, to find them on the books. 00:27:51.615 --> 00:27:56.865 So besides the project of the podcast, I was writing a book about that actually. 00:27:57.458 --> 00:27:59.848 I started work 13 years ago actually. 00:28:00.358 --> 00:28:04.108 But yeah, I had the chance to dig into the archives. 00:28:04.348 --> 00:28:07.438 Uh, that is so interesting and important. 00:28:07.948 --> 00:28:10.498 And I picked out 10 women. 00:28:10.918 --> 00:28:16.403 Some of them were totally unknown by the, uh, literature and, uh, 00:28:17.498 --> 00:28:22.658 they had done hours and hours of documentaries, of programs, inventing 00:28:22.658 --> 00:28:26.948 also new formats, going around with the recorder, the portable recorder 00:28:26.948 --> 00:28:30.668 in the sixties, cross, uh, countries. 00:28:30.668 --> 00:28:34.298 I told the story of, uh, one of them, I just mentioned her 00:28:34.298 --> 00:28:36.623 because she's, uh, amazing. 00:28:36.623 --> 00:28:42.323 She was born in 1930 and she has been traveling to Australia with Nigra for 00:28:42.323 --> 00:28:46.503 five weeks on a boat with migrants, Italian migrants to Australia. 00:28:46.993 --> 00:28:50.603 And she has been doing a reportage that if you listen to that, 00:28:50.753 --> 00:28:54.083 uh, now you just have shivers. 00:28:54.083 --> 00:28:57.383 It's, uh, it's, uh, it's so modern. 00:28:57.383 --> 00:29:04.793 So yeah, it's really speaks of today, of all the problems that, uh, people face 00:29:05.528 --> 00:29:10.658 they leave the house for going somewhere else where they feel they have more luck. 00:29:11.118 --> 00:29:16.988 It's a 10 episode podcast with women that were not so famous and so well 00:29:16.988 --> 00:29:23.393 known, but who did a lot of, uh, work and programs in radio, in public radio mostly. 00:29:23.753 --> 00:29:29.393 Uh, the public service asked me to put some very well known women 00:29:29.393 --> 00:29:34.703 like singers or, uh, presenters in television, uh, that had a, had a 00:29:34.703 --> 00:29:36.773 background in radio that no one knows. 00:29:37.493 --> 00:29:41.754 So the besides, they're known, they are very well known. 00:29:41.803 --> 00:29:48.613 People like Mina, or which is very, very famous, uh, all over the world, uh, and 00:29:48.613 --> 00:29:57.223 their, the archives, uh, gave, gave me the chance to pick up very, uh, interesting 00:29:57.223 --> 00:30:01.573 excerpts of, of their work in, in the radio, which, I mean, it was a very 00:30:01.903 --> 00:30:05.953 interesting way to look at this 100 years. 00:30:06.188 --> 00:30:09.488 And give justice and restore. 00:30:09.548 --> 00:30:11.168 Big job they did. 00:30:11.258 --> 00:30:17.858 And also to understand how the model of a female host has been built, because 00:30:17.858 --> 00:30:22.118 today, of course, that are different, but before there were more men than 00:30:22.118 --> 00:30:26.408 women in, uh, hosting the radio shows. 00:30:26.828 --> 00:30:28.178 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I think that's, that's great. 00:30:28.178 --> 00:30:30.608 Well, thanks for sharing that with us as well too then. 00:30:30.788 --> 00:30:36.238 That sounds like a, a really amazing project, especially using archives of 00:30:36.358 --> 00:30:40.013 audio and bringing that back to life. 00:30:40.863 --> 00:30:43.583 Jennifer-Lee: And that's a whole, like that's a whole deeper 00:30:43.583 --> 00:30:47.933 conversation as women in radio because it's not even that long ago. 00:30:47.933 --> 00:30:55.643 Like I graduated from radio school almost like 15 years ago, and I remember 00:30:56.033 --> 00:30:58.213 one of my male teachers came up to me. 00:30:58.883 --> 00:31:03.353 And he said, it is still a male dominated industry. 00:31:03.383 --> 00:31:05.273 He said, do not let it stop you. 00:31:05.273 --> 00:31:08.093 He says, there are gonna be men that are in your path. 00:31:08.093 --> 00:31:09.533 And he said, just keep going. 00:31:09.533 --> 00:31:12.143 And I thought that was really cool that he was like super supportive. 00:31:12.503 --> 00:31:14.063 But that wasn't that long ago. 00:31:14.093 --> 00:31:18.813 And the fact that he's still telling female students to 00:31:18.813 --> 00:31:21.158 like push past the boundary. 00:31:21.428 --> 00:31:25.418 And even like just, it wasn't even that long ago, they were telling 00:31:25.418 --> 00:31:29.978 us in radio school that women were only allowed certain day parts. 00:31:31.328 --> 00:31:36.858 They had this thing too for music radio that like if a woman's song 00:31:36.878 --> 00:31:40.688 came, you couldn't necessarily have a woman off the back and they 00:31:40.688 --> 00:31:42.338 couldn't have women songs together. 00:31:42.398 --> 00:31:44.018 Like it was just, it's so fascinating. 00:31:44.018 --> 00:31:46.158 And it was interesting 'cause I read an article too. 00:31:46.978 --> 00:31:50.303 And this is why I am glad in the university space and, and 00:31:50.303 --> 00:31:53.963 a lot of the people that we do interview, are amazing women. 00:31:53.963 --> 00:31:58.013 Not that, I love the men, but it's the fact that they were 00:31:58.013 --> 00:32:01.073 saying still that podcasting is still a male dominated industry. 00:32:01.313 --> 00:32:02.004 And what is it? 00:32:02.213 --> 00:32:02.603 I don't know. 00:32:02.603 --> 00:32:05.123 Maybe, maybe women don't necessarily wanna speak on the air. 00:32:05.123 --> 00:32:06.443 Are we given the opportunities? 00:32:06.443 --> 00:32:08.993 Obviously podcast is a little bit different because anyone can come out 00:32:08.993 --> 00:32:13.133 with a microphone, but it is still male dominated, like broadcasting. 00:32:13.223 --> 00:32:13.763 Neil McPhedran: It is true. 00:32:13.763 --> 00:32:16.763 Jen, I think you, you raised a really good point, and I think we still 00:32:16.763 --> 00:32:22.373 see it in podcasting if you think about the, the bro podcasts, right? 00:32:22.373 --> 00:32:24.413 Like it's prevalent and persistent. 00:32:25.033 --> 00:32:26.918 And so Marta, you're doing amazing work. 00:32:26.918 --> 00:32:32.558 Just encourage you to keep going and not only your academic study with female 00:32:32.558 --> 00:32:36.938 in the industry, but the cross border, the cross-cultural, the cross language 00:32:37.088 --> 00:32:38.468 work that you're doing as well too. 00:32:38.498 --> 00:32:42.308 It's commendable and thank you so much for joining us today and telling 00:32:42.308 --> 00:32:44.108 us a little bit more about it. 00:32:44.168 --> 00:32:47.848 We'll definitely put links in our, uh, show notes. 00:32:47.848 --> 00:32:51.278 Thank you so much for joining us today. 00:32:51.848 --> 00:32:52.508 Marta Perrotta: Thank you. 00:32:52.598 --> 00:32:53.468 Thank you so much. 00:32:54.548 --> 00:32:56.648 Neil McPhedran: Well, Jen, I know I say this every single time, 00:32:56.648 --> 00:32:57.938 but that was a great interview. 00:32:57.998 --> 00:33:00.068 I learned so much from Marta. 00:33:00.458 --> 00:33:07.478 And it just continues to blow my mind how after two years, we just keep talking to 00:33:07.478 --> 00:33:10.028 new people just doing so many cool things. 00:33:10.028 --> 00:33:14.858 And I love how lately we've just been like really reaching outside of North America 00:33:14.858 --> 00:33:17.768 and learning what is going on in Europe. 00:33:18.398 --> 00:33:21.878 Although we do need to figure out, we need to talk to people out there in Asia. 00:33:22.058 --> 00:33:22.358 Hello. 00:33:23.203 --> 00:33:26.263 Talk to us if you want get interviewed, and Africa, you 00:33:26.263 --> 00:33:27.673 know, we definitely need that too. 00:33:27.883 --> 00:33:30.943 Jennifer-Lee: And more Canadians because we actually don't talk to many at all. 00:33:31.453 --> 00:33:32.863 Neil McPhedran: Well, we got a few Canadians coming. 00:33:32.863 --> 00:33:36.193 Jennifer-Lee: I feel like We don't talk to, we don't talk to our people ever. 00:33:36.553 --> 00:33:37.753 Neil McPhedran: True that, that is true. 00:33:37.753 --> 00:33:40.393 But anyway, our conversation with Marta was amazing. 00:33:40.393 --> 00:33:45.023 Oh, and wait, I gotta give a shout out to Carl Hartley, who again, has 00:33:45.023 --> 00:33:46.693 introduced us to someone amazing. 00:33:46.723 --> 00:33:52.363 And you need to check out Marta's book, uh, or her journal that she has published, 00:33:52.363 --> 00:33:54.883 which Carl Hartley has a chapter there in. 00:33:55.213 --> 00:33:59.263 And while that WePod, what a great organization and project. 00:34:00.628 --> 00:34:02.818 Jennifer-Lee: Something that's very international and I love it. 00:34:02.818 --> 00:34:06.388 So we're learning so many new ideas from everyone. 00:34:06.388 --> 00:34:09.148 And like you said, Neil, every time we think we've got it figured 00:34:09.148 --> 00:34:13.348 out, somebody else comes out with a new part to podcasting. 00:34:13.348 --> 00:34:15.358 So very exciting times. 00:34:16.138 --> 00:34:16.408 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:34:16.408 --> 00:34:17.398 I can't wait to go to Italy. 00:34:17.878 --> 00:34:19.588 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, we're telling Marta we're coming. 00:34:19.678 --> 00:34:23.443 Neil McPhedran: Now that we've done the live event at PodCon, I feel 00:34:23.443 --> 00:34:27.413 like we just now need to go do, do a live, live tour in Europe. 00:34:27.853 --> 00:34:28.843 Jennifer-Lee: Oh, let's do it. 00:34:29.383 --> 00:34:30.463 Booking the flights. 00:34:30.853 --> 00:34:33.853 Thank you for tuning into the Continuing Studies podcast a podcast 00:34:33.853 --> 00:34:35.593 where higher education podcasters. 00:34:35.923 --> 00:34:38.563 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 00:34:38.563 --> 00:34:41.503 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our 00:34:41.503 --> 00:34:44.953 podcast on your preferred platform, so you'll never miss an episode. 00:34:44.953 --> 00:34:48.253 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider 00:34:48.253 --> 00:34:51.423 sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested 00:34:51.423 --> 00:34:52.893 in higher education podcasts. 00:34:53.163 --> 00:34:57.273 We also invite you to join your peers on HigherEdPods.com, where you can connect 00:34:57.273 --> 00:35:00.993 with other podcasters in higher education and learn from each other in the field. 00:35:01.443 --> 00:35:03.243 Thank you for being part of our community. 00:35:03.243 --> 00:35:06.723 We look forward to continuing to bring you valuable insights and conversations 00:35:06.753 --> 00:35:08.493 around higher education podcasts. 00:35:08.793 --> 00:35:15.013 See you in the next episode.