All right, how's it going everyone?
Welcome to another episode of Forward Thinking Founders.
We talked to founders about their visions for the future markets and how the world collides.
Today I'm very excited to be talking to Madi Nuri, who's a co-founder and CEO of Cat Does.
Welcome to the show, how's it going?
Yeah.
Hello man.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me here.
And also hello to everyone who's listening and also watching.
Yeah.
My name is Mahdi and I'm a co-founder and CEO of Katdos.
And I can also tell you about what Katdos.
So yeah, we have URA and no code AI mobile app builder.
And you can think of like lovable for mobile apps.
That's basically what we are doing.
And yeah.
yep, keep going, yep.
Yeah, I mean, um, and, uh, we, have launched a month ago and, uh, it's been a exciting time, you know, like, uh, seeing all the users building apps on our, our platform.
Um, so yeah, it's been an exciting, exciting time.
So if I was to sign up for your platform, walk me through how it works.
Or if someone was listening, they wanted to, you while they were working or something, wanted to try it out.
Can you walk us through UX of how it works?
Yeah, I mean, we have these like, different AI agents.
that all work together to build your app.
So the first AI agent that you will see is our requirements agent.
And here basically you tell the agent what kind of app you want.
um Like all the features that you need, like how it's going to behave, kind of things.
And then this agent will pass all this like information to our designer agent.
And the designer agent basically implements the UI of your app.
And then, um, while it's doing so, also writes like some to do's for the next agents, which, uh, which, which essentially implements the business logic of your app.
So all of these agents together with, we'll like finally build, build the app for you.
And then we have the release agents, which, uh, automatically submits your app to the app store or to the Google play.
So yeah, this is like the general flow of the platform.
So it's funny because today's Dev Day with OpenAI and I was listening to some of it, but they have this agent builder, which is cool.
feel like the word agent has been thrown around.
What does agent mean to you?
Like if I'm signing up, it like, is it there is that you have different kind of, you know, experiences where each agent has a name and they're like, oh, hey, I'm Susan and I'm going
to help you with your QA.
You know, I'm going to help you with your requirements or yeah, how does that work?
Because I feel like we're kind of in the dawn of agents right now.
Yeah, I think, to me, what agent is, basically an agentic loop, and tools that are assigned to perhaps the, the, the, the AI model.
So, for example, when you're like asking chat GPT about something, it could go on search on the, on the internet for, for getting like, uh, the latest updates or like more
information on the, on the topic that you have asked.
Or, uh, there's like a loop.
goes to first search about the topic and then maybe it does another thing and then finally answers your question, something like that.
You know, like there's this loop happening, like, that that's basically what I would say is, like an AI agent.
And in our case, you can think of like the agents maybe first reads a file to see like what are the contents of the file and then goes on search, searches the web to get like
some information about the, about the thing that you have asked.
And then it is the file, you know, like there's like a loop happening.
There's the tools that are being called on by tools.
mean, like these operations, like reading a file, editing, editing a file.
These are like all the tools that are assigned.
to the AI model basically to uh implement your app.
So yeah, that's basically what an agent is.
Yeah.
yeah, I love that answer.
It's very descriptive and it sounds like you've thought through it.
Why did you decide to build this company or this platform?
Like why CAT does?
Yeah.
I mean, back then the, the main reason was a friend of my co-founder, wanted to build a mobile app.
And, and then my co-founder told her, Hey, there's like lovable or like, Hey, there is this platform that you could go and use.
But the problem was like after a week she came back to us and told us, I went to use this platform, but it was like too difficult for me because she was a non-technical person.
And like, she didn't know like all the terms or like the technical things that you need to know to build the app.
And then we went on Reddit to see like, if this is a, like a universal problem, right?
Unlike subreddits like, like no code and like these other subreddits.
And then we saw, okay, there are like a lot of sub a lot of like, um, posts, like people sharing their problems, building apps on, these like platforms.
And we said, okay, what if we build a platform that is non-technical friendly?
Like even my mom could use it.
Right.
Uh, and basically that's why we have started working on Katdos and, um,
We are focusing on non-technical users at the moment.
And we are also like generating more apps.
So we are not focused on like web apps or like any other kind of like platforms.
You probably have to be very technical to be able to build a platform like this.
Tell me about your background or your team's background.
um Because to make it easy for me as a non-technical person, you probably got to put in the hard work, right?
Yeah.
I mean, I started coding back in 2014.
I was just like 14 years old back then.
And then I, I basically, started like learning Java and, and developing Android apps.
It was a hobby of mine.
I was like publishing them on a local app store that we have back in Iran because Google play is like banned.
And after like three years, I got my first job.
I was like working full time.
I dropped out of college to work, to work there.
And then back in 2021, I decided to move to Germany.
And here I worked for like some top U companies like Delivery Hero and Zalando.
And then I decided, okay, let's work on this idea.
And then I quit my job to work on it full time.
So that's like a, um like I would say like my coding background and working as a software engineer.
And it's kind of like similar to my co-founder.
She also started like learning and coding when she was back in Iran.
And then she came to Germany to pursue her master in AI in a university in Germany.
And then once we decided to work on this idea, she also quit her job and also dropped out of college or like her university to basically go all in on our idea to work on CADDOS.
And, um, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a, it's not like a, you're like your typical crowd app.
Like it's not just like the database operations.
Um, I would say the hard thing about implementing a platform like cat does is perhaps the sandbox environment.
Like, you know, um, like
when you have a project on our platform and the agent should do some like operations on the project, where does the project leave?
You know, like where should the agent go and like edit the file?
Like these kinds of things.
I think that that's like one of the challenges.
And there are like some platforms that their whole business is around this like sandbox environment.
Like one of the big players is like E2B.
And, um but since, um I mean, we have like extensive knowledge in like computer networking.
We decided to implement it ourselves, like this sandbox environment.
And um yeah, that's basically ah the challenge in implementing a platform like Caddus.
I feel like right now...
vibe coding, AI platforms, like it's taken the attention of the world and there's a lot of folks in Silicon Valley who are like putting out these crazy launch videos and maybe
there's some substance behind it and some not.
Some may say we're in the middle of an AI bubble and it might pop and it's it's kind of like unclear, but you know, are we, are we going to accelerate forever?
Is there going to be a deceleration?
How do you just think about the timing we are in AI adoption and do you, does it matter for your company?
Is it is they're operate in the same way regardless of what happens?
guess what's your can I you know, what's your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to how maybe like history works um or perhaps like how Greeks thought about history, like these like golden ages and then the dark ages, these
kind of things.
I think there will come like a time that um the bubble bursts basically um and how it will shape the market.
is perhaps
uh, by being a bit more like conservative, right?
Like if a, a, if a, if an AI platform is currently like giving credits for free, um, that might not happen anymore.
And that basically, what, what that basically means is if you're living like in a third world country, if you're broke, if you don't have like enough money to spend on these like
AI products,
then you might, um, get behind something like that.
think could happen.
And why I know this because like people that I know back in my country, they can really like even, purchase the $20 a month, like cursor subscription, right?
Or like a chat GPT subscription because $20 in like a third world countries is a lot of money, right?
And that could happen in a first world country as well.
and I think that would be like the minimum effect of this, bubble bursting.
Um, but for, for the companies themselves, you can think of, okay,
the bottom of the stack that is like your day to day usual user, like the B2C kind of user.
Maybe there will be some like reduction on that.
But then since these like air models are getting better, like every day, you can think of
from the top of the stack, it's the companies that will perhaps replace their developers with these AI tools.
So perhaps the, the revenue shifts from the B2C from more of a B2P type of like revenue generation.
think that's basically what's going to happen.
But yeah, that's just, that's just my opinion.
Yeah, that makes sense.
think that's right.
And for you, so you said you launched about a month ago.
I checking out some stats on you and it seems like it's exploding.
It seems like there's a good amount of adoption to your website and whatnot.
How are you growing without giving up your secret sauce?
What are you doing to get adoption for a cat does?
Yeah, I mean, the thing is currently we are in the process of raising our pre-seed and since so far we have been like bootstrapping, we know we have to be like really careful
where to spend money and where to not spend money.
and we have to spend a lot of like our personal time to do like marketing and like user acquisition and basically how we are doing it is just going like on a hunt, you know, you
go on like social media and then you DM people like directly and That's how we are doing it.
It's not like a scalable but we have some like limitations with with our capital and that's how we are we have decided to do it for now and
I mean, obviously it's effective because you're like reaching out to users directly or basically like your potential users.
um But it's not a scalable and definitely we have to um think of like other ways of ah acquiring users once ah we have the capital to um do some like more scalable things
basically.
Well, as Paul Graham says, do you think that don't scale to start?
I'm sure you've seen that.
And it's like, some people do that.
uh I feel like for me, I live and breathe by that.
And there's a point with a former company where I just kept doing it, even when I didn't have to.
And I'm like, wait, you have resources now.
Like go spend to get customers, right?
But it's all a balance, of course.
So right now you're in Germany, you said?
Yes, this is both me and my co-founder are in Germany.
Yeah.
Is there any uh kind of edge or it's what's it like building this like company from Germany?
Do you feel like it is easier or harder than being in the States?
What's the as you get an edge from being outside of the States for you?
Does it not really matter because you sell to anyone on earth?
What's your view on building kind of this global company?
Yeah, I think um being in an environment that, uh
pushes you to excellence or like pushes you to build a great company is definitely a huge deal, I would say.
And the minimum thing would be not being in an environment that doesn't allow you to flourish or doesn't allow you to build the thing that you want to do.
Right.
And unfortunately, I think being in Berlin,
is currently not like the best place for us to be in because it's not just about the government, it's also the culture of the people ah that shapes the environment, right?
And here, like I'm not talking about the whole Germany, but especially in Berlin, people are kind of like negative, like on people who are like
pursuing to build their own companies, um, or have like, maybe like capitalistic views on the board.
Uh, they, they see them as, someone negative or like, um, it's not like a good thing to be a sort of founder here in Berlin.
so yeah, that, um, that's, that's something that, we, we, we are definitely working on and how we are doing it is basically we want to move to SF.
And, uh, it's, it's kind of challenging because, uh, of the, of the travel ban, after like the recent travel ban.
Um, um, but these like laws changes, like, um, perhaps like once every six months or so.
So we are, we are hopeful to see like, um, this like travel travel bans lifted.
And, and yeah, we will, uh, find a way to move to the stuff somehow.
For the folks that are maybe not as attuned to why you'd want to move to SF versus, you know, Chicago or New York or Miami, uh why SF?
Why is that kind of the target in your work?
Yeah, I think, I think being in SF is, um, the, the, I think the minimum thing would be the talents that is, um, available in, in SF.
that is like quite important for scaling and AI company.
And also, uh, it's, it's perhaps about the culture.
mean, I have never been to a self, but from the things that my friends have told me, or like I've seen on social media, it's, it's, it's, there's like a culture of, pushing you
to like reach excellence or like to.
grow your company and also apart from the culture and the talent that is available in NSF, perhaps the other part is the capital that is available.
And that is also a huge part.
uh Both, mean, that's also part of the culture as well, because if you want to raise in Europe, then
There is also a reflection of the government's culture on the VC side, because then there's also like the, all the bureaucracy or like all the paperwork that, that is
involved.
Like, I think it's kind of like normal in Europe to perhaps have like six meetings with a VC and a month of time to get a, get a check.
And from what I've heard from SF that's like, uh,
that's like not normal in SF to go through like six different meetings and then get an answer.
So yeah, I think these are all the things that's that makes SF like a perfect place for building an AI company.
Yeah, I'd agree with all those points.
One thing that I think about is, well, I'm in Phoenix and I think our ecosystem here is very well-intentioned and better than it was 50 years ago, but it's very long way to go.
And I kind of wonder, think SF is the undisputed number one.
If you were to kind of go compare, call it Phoenix to Berlin.
even though Phoenix is a much physically closer to SF, is it different or is just that SF is so unique in that culture of people that SF is just 10,000 miles ahead of any scene,
regardless of where they're at?
Because in Phoenix, is also, a lot of the issues that people talk about with VCs across the pond, I love a lot of local VCs, a lot of them are really great, they're friends of
mine, but in general,
It's kind of a way of doing business and SF is one of one.
Even New York, from what I've heard, I've been, but I'm not as involved in the tech scene, but even New York, it's not as fast.
It's harder to underwrite these early stage companies versus an SF.
They just kind of, it's half vibe, half pattern recognition on seeing how these things unfold.
And I think that's pretty special.
Yeah, I definitely agree on that.
I'm only like seeing what is happening uh in SF from social media and like from what my friends have told me, but it's like, it's like a different place.
It's kind of like, like an alien planet, you know, like it's not like a normal place, I would say.
So yeah.
Well, whenever you do go, you'll see when you land and you drive into the city, you just are, I believe it's the 202, could be the 101.
It's the 101 or the 202.
And all of the billboards are just tech companies.
Every single one, like every one, you you got HubSpot and you got frigging, you know, OpenAI and you got Anthropic and you know, you know, I don't know, all these different
companies.
And it's just...
um
You know, we have tech companies in Phoenix that have billboards like maybe one out of every 5,000 are tech companies.
Usually it's like lawyers or real estate people, but that's just natural for the scene, right?
It just depends on where each city is.
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree on that.
So let's go back to the product a little bit.
Obviously there's a point where this probably can't, like this, doubt, I could be wrong, you can correct me, but I doubt like I could, I can't build Uber on this.
I can maybe build the tech, but I still need to, there's APIs, I need to get, you know, get drivers and background checks and all that stuff.
I guess where does the limit, where is the limit to building on CAD does?
Or is there really no limit and it's just a human limit?
Yeah.
So the thing is I personally can build Uber on CADDOS, but the platform should allow even someone like my mother to also be able to build an Uber on CADDOS, right?
I think that that would be the goal.
And maybe one, um,
bottleneck in this, achieving this is the AI models, like them getting better over time.
And also how your platform allows these AI agents to operate, right?
um There are some like perhaps like secret sources that some of these AI platforms as well as cat does use.
that could differentiate us from some other platforms that don't have this secret sauce.
And that's, that's basically perhaps the, the tools that are assigned to the AI agents, as well as the system prompt, like how much are you able to elevate the AI model from the
baseline?
And, and that's currently what is like making the differentiation.
um But this should get, um
Not as important in the future.
And the reason is these AI models will get so much better, perhaps one year down the line that, um, it doesn't really matter what you have on your system prompt or what tools have
you really assigned to the, to the AI agent, because the AI model itself has like so much, like it has so much depth in its knowledge that it will be able to, um,
Work much much better on its own without without your like without your secret sauce essentially.
Yeah.
Totally.
And I think to kind of round this out, like how do you kind of think of the future, uh you know, maybe over the next two to five years, that's impossible to predict where the models
will be.
We can guess, but then, you know, whatever happens happens.
But what's in your control, where do you see CAT does going, you know, two, five years from now, um how do you envision the company?
um I think um the division that I have for CAD does is the ultimate mobile app building platform.
um
I mean, we can, can definitely like expand to web apps and like different platforms, but, uh, that's not like my, my personal passion.
My personal passion is, is, uh, solely the mobile apps.
Uh, because that's how I started learning to code because I wanted to build apps and, uh and by ultimate mobile app building platform, what I mean is.
You have all the things that is relevant to mobile apps on the platform itself.
Like perhaps you have the backend.
You can think of like a Kat does cloud.
You have the crash reporting system and you have the analytics.
have the user management tools, like all of these things are baked into the platform.
And, um,
So you like, there's no reason for you to go and use like other platforms.
You can just build your app from start to finish all on Katdos.
That's for perhaps for like individuals and the B2C side and for the B2B side.
What I imagine for Katdos is at least
If your, if your company is a sale, like hiring developers, those developers are all using cat does to build, uh, your, businesses mobile app.
And that, that, that would be the vision, um, for cat does in like two or five years down the line.
That's awesome.
I'm really excited by it because I think you're being very thoughtful.
You're not just kind of vibing it, right?
You're building a thoughtful platform, thinking of all the parts that are necessary to let someone like me, who's non-technical, to ship one of these.
So that's awesome.
If I wanted to find out more about the company or try it out or, know, obviously I know how to find it, but if someone's listening, they want to try this out, where can they find
you?
know, website, app store, where can someone get started here with Cat Does?
Yeah, I mean, our website is caddos.com and you can just go there and sign up, create an account and start building your app.
You have a free tier.
can use that to basically get to know the platform and see like how it works.
And then, uh
Once you felt like comfortable, once you saw a value in using our platform, then of course you can upgrade to our, our pro our pros here.
Um, and yeah, and, um, looking forward to seeing like all the apps that will be created on, on Katdos.
100%.
Well, thank you so much for coming on the pod.
I really appreciate it.
I think this is a very exciting space and to see your growth and to see you in it is awesome.
So if you're listening, you wanna build a mobile app, go to catdoes.com.
uh Maddie, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you, thank you, Matt.