WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.400 Music. 00:00:08.399 --> 00:00:19.769 I'm Pastor Luke and I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have uncut and honest conversations about faith, 00:00:20.102 --> 00:00:21.821 life and ministry. 00:00:22.849 --> 00:00:28.897 This week, if you're joining us, this week's going to be a kind of part two, picking up 00:00:29.059 --> 00:00:34.649 where we left off the conversation from last week. 00:00:34.649 --> 00:00:44.912 Last week, we dove in and talked about a dialogue that was happening between Andy Stanley and Robert... 00:00:46.028 --> 00:00:51.925 Albert Mueller. Andy Stanley hosted a... And others, too. 00:00:52.329 --> 00:00:55.549 And others. Lots of other people have been talking about it. 00:00:55.549 --> 00:01:04.349 And Andy Stanley, influential pastor, hosted a conference aimed at supporting and caring 00:01:04.349 --> 00:01:16.649 for parents of LGBTQ kids, and some of his decisions were kind of tossed into the question 00:01:16.649 --> 00:01:23.749 of like, is he crossing the line into becoming affirming in some of the decisions that he's 00:01:23.749 --> 00:01:24.749 made? 00:01:24.749 --> 00:01:32.249 And so we kind of talked about that from a pastoral perspective, tried to kind of read 00:01:32.249 --> 00:01:40.009 both sides of the story well and with some charity and we kind of gave some of our thoughts there. 00:01:41.986 --> 00:01:48.089 And so, and a lot of you watched, cause I think that's our biggest episode thus far, last I looked. Yep. 00:01:49.689 --> 00:01:58.569 So yeah, is there anything we feel like we need to, before we kind of, at least in my mind, 00:01:58.569 --> 00:02:07.369 I think I had that we were going to talk about kind of homosexuality in the church more generally. 00:02:09.065 --> 00:02:14.809 Before we did that, was there anything in your mind about the conversation still sitting with, 00:02:16.438 --> 00:02:19.609 Andy and that whole conversation, like, specifically? 00:02:20.435 --> 00:02:26.249 Well, I mean, I don't know that it... Yeah, probably not specifically to that situation. 00:02:26.249 --> 00:02:27.583 Yeah. It's kind of been. 00:02:28.906 --> 00:02:34.784 You know, for at least social media accounts that I follow and stuff like that, there's not. 00:02:36.594 --> 00:02:44.516 It's kind of died down, you know, thanks to what's going on in the world at this time. 00:02:44.516 --> 00:02:49.396 You know, I don't know when you're watching this, but there's issues in Israel, between Israel and, 00:02:50.088 --> 00:02:54.676 Palestinians and Gaza right now. And so, that's kind of, even in Christian circles, 00:02:54.676 --> 00:02:57.281 overshadowed what was last week's news, apparently. 00:02:58.116 --> 00:03:08.116 But there are, I think, still implications for, I mean, life and ministry that we can 00:03:08.116 --> 00:03:10.676 talk about as it pertained here. 00:03:10.676 --> 00:03:21.156 I don't remember totally where we left off, but I do still have a lot of questions about. 00:03:25.125 --> 00:03:29.636 About how, because I think like, 00:03:32.093 --> 00:03:34.676 on reflection about what we talked about last week, I think, 00:03:34.676 --> 00:03:43.196 I think it's, I hope it was clear that we see points of both arguments. Yeah. 00:03:43.544 --> 00:03:48.225 We see the point of Andy's desire to offer a conference like that. 00:03:49.236 --> 00:03:59.516 Right. I see the point of Albert Mueller's comments, particularly around the type of speakers that 00:03:59.516 --> 00:04:04.240 that are allowed to present at a conference like that. 00:04:04.436 --> 00:04:07.454 And probably another like. 00:04:08.651 --> 00:04:19.340 Aspect of his criticism to Andy really is that his, when asked point blank his position on essentially 00:04:19.340 --> 00:04:26.962 like affirming homosexual practice or marriage or however you wanna phrase it, 00:04:27.070 --> 00:04:33.110 that he believed, like he thought that Andy skirted the issue and that he didn't offer any clarity 00:04:33.380 --> 00:04:35.739 and he said things without saying things. 00:04:36.459 --> 00:04:43.660 Um, and which I think is, I don't know if it's totally fair, but, um, 00:04:43.660 --> 00:04:49.872 yeah, I mean, like I would characterize Andy's answers to some of that stuff as like, he 00:04:50.020 --> 00:04:54.740 kind of says things shorthand a little bit. 00:04:54.740 --> 00:05:04.321 So by like what he said is like, what did he say? He said something around like the five new Testament passages that talk about homosexuality. 00:05:04.660 --> 00:05:11.220 We believe, or something like that. He said something to that effect, which affirms conservative 00:05:11.388 --> 00:05:16.540 Christian views on sexuality, but that is probably, like, the most roundabout way to 00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:28.123 have said that. And so, you know, it is kind of a, like, are we, you know, are you being. 00:05:29.014 --> 00:05:33.074 Obtuse intentionally, you know, like, you know, so. 00:05:33.786 --> 00:05:37.060 Pete Yeah. And how clear does he need to be? Jared Yeah. 00:05:37.060 --> 00:05:46.587 Pete Part of, I think, what one of the questions that I have is like, what is the 00:05:46.900 --> 00:05:51.754 the big C church, the church in the world. 00:05:54.380 --> 00:06:01.423 What is its role or responsibility in calling out what they believe to be 00:06:01.846 --> 00:06:05.546 as false teaching or non-biblical teaching, 00:06:06.740 --> 00:06:08.560 in individual churches? 00:06:11.064 --> 00:06:20.540 It seems like most people who I've seen commenting commenting on this or like offering their opinions or videos and responses or whatever, 00:06:21.260 --> 00:06:29.660 see it as their job to confront false teaching or an anti-biblical or a non-biblical stance here. 00:06:29.660 --> 00:06:38.660 And my question is whether or not that is like, is that the role of a local church? 00:06:40.321 --> 00:06:44.571 Should that be a responsibility of the local church to call out another local church? 00:06:44.571 --> 00:06:55.611 Right. You know, I think I know where my... I am not predisposed to... I don't look particularly 00:06:55.611 --> 00:07:03.451 favorably... I don't look favorably on... What do you call those? Watchdog ministries? 00:07:04.411 --> 00:07:08.011 I think there's another word for those, like... I don't know. 00:07:08.011 --> 00:07:11.931 I know what you're talking about. Yeah. They're like theological ombudsmen, right? 00:07:11.931 --> 00:07:17.996 Right. Or they're just like internal affairs for the church that run around and find heresy. 00:07:18.331 --> 00:07:25.211 Yeah. And I can think of a couple blogs, websites. Sometimes these websites or blogs are dedicated to, 00:07:25.810 --> 00:07:33.048 particular churches. Sometimes they're dedicated to like the church at large. And they can... 00:07:33.111 --> 00:07:41.371 And those individual theological watchdog ministry things can have their own slant. They don't have 00:07:41.371 --> 00:07:43.691 to be conservative watchdogs. You can... No. 00:07:43.691 --> 00:07:53.051 There are ones that are very much in a more liberal kind of leaning. And so I personally 00:07:53.051 --> 00:07:55.131 don't love those. No, I don't either. 00:07:55.131 --> 00:08:02.891 I'm like, I came to the conviction a long time ago that, like, if I'd never wanted to be involved 00:08:02.891 --> 00:08:10.891 in a ministry that was primarily defined by what we are against. I just, that's, it's not the way 00:08:10.891 --> 00:08:17.672 I'm built. I don't think it's a healthy way to be or to operate. And that's not to say that you 00:08:17.931 --> 00:08:26.811 never, you know, I probably, my personality and bent is to just kind of avoid the whole conversation of what we're 00:08:26.811 --> 00:08:31.491 against, sometimes. And sometimes that's really a good strength because. 00:08:32.697 --> 00:08:38.147 I don't think we always need to be like, I think if we're very clear about what we're for and championing that and 00:08:38.512 --> 00:08:44.147 showing the beauty and the truth of that, we don't always have to like engage in this kind of like, 00:08:45.336 --> 00:08:48.267 anti-attack what we're against behavior. Yeah. 00:08:48.595 --> 00:08:59.307 But there is a space for that, you know? Um, but more directly to your question, I guess, like where, 00:08:59.307 --> 00:09:06.267 Isn't that the role of, and I say this as we're both pastors of a non-denominational 00:09:06.635 --> 00:09:08.976 church, isn't that the role of the domination? 00:09:10.056 --> 00:09:16.147 Right? Isn't that the role of, like, church hierarchy, you know, at least historically, right? 00:09:16.147 --> 00:09:24.467 Each church has got people who are supposed to be overseers of the church and guarding 00:09:24.467 --> 00:09:29.027 the, you know, like, doesn't that provide a space for that? 00:09:29.027 --> 00:09:30.644 As you know. 00:09:30.707 --> 00:09:34.227 Guarding like the, yeah, as like the, the bishop would be the one that is charged 00:09:34.290 --> 00:09:35.974 with guarding the faith. Right. 00:09:37.727 --> 00:09:41.927 I mean, do you think, do you agree with that? Or do you think that was just kind of like always in word, 00:09:41.927 --> 00:09:44.004 but never in deed or? 00:09:44.447 --> 00:09:53.127 Well, yeah, I mean, like from its most, I think from its most pure example and motive in scripture, 00:09:53.127 --> 00:09:55.076 it is what it should be or. 00:09:55.687 --> 00:10:09.669 So I mean, that's how Paul operates. It is how Paul operates, but Paul's relationship with his churches is a little unique. 00:10:09.767 --> 00:10:14.727 Yeah, I don't think we should duplicate. I don't love the justification of, well, 00:10:14.727 --> 00:10:16.487 Paul did it. I'm like, well, you're not Paul. 00:10:16.574 --> 00:10:21.127 Right, you're not Paul, and you're not an apostle. You haven't seen the resurrected Jesus, 00:10:22.011 --> 00:10:25.729 and you are, not all of us are church planters. 00:10:26.607 --> 00:10:34.695 And so Paul was speaking from a place of pastoral authority over those churches and congregations, 00:10:34.987 --> 00:10:37.647 and you would expect that the pastor would speak with authority over them. 00:10:37.647 --> 00:10:45.138 I think maybe one of the examples that I would maybe reference that would support the idea, 00:10:45.607 --> 00:10:50.607 that other churches can hold other churches accountable, 00:10:51.638 --> 00:10:53.834 which is also a sticky idea because we're like. 00:10:55.437 --> 00:11:00.887 It's the New Testament idea of church is pretty different than what we're experiencing in church 00:11:00.887 --> 00:11:07.927 now. But like Paul going to Jerusalem to confront the apostles about the inclusion of the Gentiles, 00:11:08.859 --> 00:11:14.407 or the necessity of the Gentiles to be circumcised or whatever in order to be partakers in the 00:11:14.407 --> 00:11:24.487 gospel. And Paul says, I went there to confront them to their faces. But we weren't talking about 00:11:24.487 --> 00:11:29.249 an established church at that point. We weren't talking about established pastors at that point. 00:11:29.527 --> 00:11:29.942 No. 00:11:31.077 --> 00:11:37.414 We weren't talking about... There was no ecclesiological structure at that point. 00:11:37.549 --> 00:11:46.487 Yeah. And trying to find a direct correlation in the Bible to your modern ecclesiological structure is impossible. Right. 00:11:47.605 --> 00:11:53.847 Titus is probably the closest I can think of, because the instruction Paul gives there is 00:11:53.847 --> 00:11:57.894 set overseers in each town or each church. 00:11:58.065 --> 00:12:03.413 And so he kind of like, you know, there is some sort of structure given there. 00:12:03.647 --> 00:12:06.924 Right, and so like, I don't know, when I. 00:12:11.247 --> 00:12:19.267 I'm trying to do like a quick survey in my head and I could be wrong here. 00:12:20.567 --> 00:12:23.527 You know, someone could reference something that could show me that, oh yeah, 00:12:23.527 --> 00:12:30.131 I guess you're right, is that like, I get the sense that the, especially the New Testament. 00:12:35.487 --> 00:12:39.917 Asks communities of faith to guard themselves, 00:12:44.047 --> 00:12:45.210 against false teaching. 00:12:48.649 --> 00:12:57.174 You know, like false teaching is springing up. That needs to be opposed because there's only one gospel, right? 00:12:58.047 --> 00:13:02.522 So that false teaching that's springing up from that group of people from among you, 00:13:03.527 --> 00:13:09.727 so there's maybe like a faction of teachings springing up, that needs to be quashed. 00:13:10.543 --> 00:13:14.807 And if it's not, they need to be kicked out because a little yeast makes its way through 00:13:14.807 --> 00:13:21.381 the whole batch of dough type of thing. necessarily from, 00:13:23.551 --> 00:13:31.725 Someone else on the outside Seeing what's going on internally? Mm-hmm and coming and saying hey you guys are not doing this, right? Yeah. 00:13:33.823 --> 00:13:42.726 Now again The reason that maybe that wouldn't happen, maybe Paul would be fine with that idea. Yeah, but but, 00:13:43.590 --> 00:13:49.081 We don't have an example in the scripture of whether or not that would be okay because we don't have an example in scripture whether 00:13:49.081 --> 00:13:54.041 not that would be okay. And part of the reason that I asked the question is because I think, 00:13:54.834 --> 00:13:59.721 there is a difference between, okay, let's say that Cameron Leinhart at Conduit Ministries in 00:13:59.721 --> 00:14:04.592 Jamestown, New York held an unconditional conference. Would it get the response that 00:14:04.637 --> 00:14:10.507 others... Would it get the same response? Well, no, because we're in Jamestown, New York. 00:14:10.678 --> 00:14:18.681 Right, but... We're not... Yeah. So why is that, though? Because if everything else being the same 00:14:18.681 --> 00:14:22.841 Is that like, okay, it's the responsibility of outside churches to come in and hold accountable, 00:14:23.488 --> 00:14:27.641 churches or pastors who are teaching what they believe is to be non-biblical. 00:14:28.691 --> 00:14:32.201 Would I expect that there would be other pastors in the city here that would have something to 00:14:32.201 --> 00:14:40.601 say about it? Probably. Yeah, probably. But would I expect the type of response? I don't know. And 00:14:40.601 --> 00:14:48.921 And so I think a little bit of this, a little bit of the issue here is who sponsored the 00:14:48.921 --> 00:14:56.921 conference, what type of voice that they have and influence that they have, and the magnitude 00:14:56.921 --> 00:15:01.921 of the message. 00:15:02.306 --> 00:15:11.081 And so it, it does make me wonder sometimes what the role there then of the church is 00:15:11.081 --> 00:15:15.681 because okay, if it was a small church, no one presumably would really care too much. 00:15:16.052 --> 00:15:27.782 Right. And so is it, is it about overpowering a message or is it about calling a leader to repentance? 00:15:28.801 --> 00:15:35.601 Like is it, is it ideologies fighting? Yeah, I just need to be louder now. Yeah. Andy Stanley's been really loud about this. I need to 00:15:35.601 --> 00:15:38.360 to come over top of you louder about the truth? 00:15:38.561 --> 00:15:38.972 Yeah. 00:15:40.041 --> 00:15:43.086 Or is it like the... 00:15:44.445 --> 00:15:52.214 You know, like, Andy, I'm worried about this. Here's where I think it's wrong. 00:15:52.935 --> 00:15:54.240 Here's where I think you're in sin. 00:15:55.255 --> 00:15:59.375 Here's where I think you're wandering from the Word of God. 00:16:00.811 --> 00:16:09.295 And the Lord is calling you to repent of this. Well, you know, I had a, I wondered, right? 00:16:09.985 --> 00:16:16.529 And from our vantage point, there's a whole bunch of things that we don't see, can't know, won't know. 00:16:17.895 --> 00:16:28.403 And I wondered if there was at any point during this, there was any attempt by Moller or Andy 00:16:28.583 --> 00:16:37.095 to exchange personal correspondence or conversation. 00:16:37.095 --> 00:16:42.024 Does Moeller address that in his podcast? Doesn't he say, we have not talked other than these back and forths? 00:16:42.335 --> 00:16:44.335 I think so. Yeah. 00:16:45.094 --> 00:16:49.010 Or as you're saying, you wonder if there would have been, could something have been avoided? 00:16:49.982 --> 00:16:57.815 Yeah. Okay. Well, or like, you know, because it's, man, I read so many things. 00:16:57.815 --> 00:16:58.855 I listen to so many things. 00:16:58.939 --> 00:17:05.907 I don't remember if Moeller mentioned, um, the, like, calling, like, Matthew... 00:17:07.374 --> 00:17:13.784 Uh, 18, like calling someone to account or something, maybe he didn't, but like, 00:17:14.504 --> 00:17:23.184 you know, the whole, like putting someone on public blast as being the first thing 00:17:23.184 --> 00:17:30.424 that you do is different than having said, Hey man, like, you know, maybe we 00:17:30.424 --> 00:17:39.384 We don't really have any relationship or anything like that, but I watch this kind of stuff, 00:17:39.384 --> 00:17:42.184 and I see you from afar making this decision. 00:17:42.321 --> 00:17:44.338 I think this is really troublesome. 00:17:44.624 --> 00:17:49.584 Could we have a conversation? Could we maybe have a dialogue about this? 00:17:49.584 --> 00:17:55.864 I want to present to you some of my concerns, not just because I'm concerned about necessarily 00:17:55.864 --> 00:18:00.929 your implicate, like, what you're... I'm concerned about what you're doing for your church, but. 00:18:01.304 --> 00:18:08.392 Then, you know, I think Moeller's justification for one of the reasons that he does take so 00:18:08.744 --> 00:18:15.824 seriously what Andy's doing is Andy's influence for the church at large, which becomes a, 00:18:15.824 --> 00:18:24.464 you know, a justification for why the conversation, I guess, is being had. But, so yeah, part 00:18:24.464 --> 00:18:29.304 of me wonders is if, and again, like, I don't really know that 00:18:29.304 --> 00:18:36.424 there's a way of knowing if they've had any personal correspondence, but I think that that would be, that at least to 00:18:36.424 --> 00:18:48.092 me, communicates a different tone, different set of intentions than, because I'll be, because I'll be honest, like 00:18:48.389 --> 00:18:58.966 Moller's first article, while I think he ended up raising good points, doesn't look great. 00:19:00.434 --> 00:19:07.184 At first glance, because it's a preemptive, Like, read the website. 00:19:08.581 --> 00:19:12.749 Pluck out and assume and make assumptions about what it's going to be without, 00:19:13.883 --> 00:19:19.631 Having gone to the conference conference hadn't happened yet. There's a lot of assumption there and then, 00:19:20.591 --> 00:19:23.791 there were several things in andy's response that kind of, 00:19:25.118 --> 00:19:32.431 Told a bigger and more complex story than moeller's original kind of call-out really was telling 00:19:32.761 --> 00:19:39.243 Um, and then molar kind of doubled down on the points that weren't necessarily resolved. 00:19:40.071 --> 00:19:43.852 Yeah. Um, and kind of abandoned some of the other points that would have been like that 00:19:44.111 --> 00:19:48.111 were a little bit less more minor now that the whole story was out. 00:19:48.722 --> 00:19:54.731 And you know, so that tells a story that's not of like connection conversation, 00:19:56.077 --> 00:19:59.391 like, um, you know, personal calling of account. 00:19:59.391 --> 00:20:08.511 It's more of a public platforms going against one another and having an ideological bout of sorts. 00:20:09.231 --> 00:20:10.511 I don't know, what do you think? 00:20:11.551 --> 00:20:16.751 I think that's basically what I was trying to say is that, you know, 00:20:16.890 --> 00:20:20.320 Albert Mueller wouldn't be responding to anything he thought was non-biblical from me. 00:20:21.832 --> 00:20:26.297 No. I don't think he would see his role. Right. 00:20:26.828 --> 00:20:32.626 As like, I need to correct Cameron for this unbiblical teaching. 00:20:32.951 --> 00:20:39.171 I think it is pretty clear that it was because of who it was and whether he sees it as, 00:20:39.471 --> 00:20:44.284 oh, well, because he has such a big audience, I need to protect his audience from him. 00:20:45.471 --> 00:20:52.359 Or it's like a opportunistic, I'm gonna need to jump in on this because I know it's gonna be, 00:20:53.751 --> 00:20:55.555 it's gonna get lots of traction. 00:20:55.911 --> 00:21:01.811 I don't know, I don't wanna be too overly pessimistic about his motives there, and I don't know them, 00:21:01.811 --> 00:21:04.503 but it seems to me that like. 00:21:07.591 --> 00:21:13.406 It does seem to me that we, I think we sometimes overestimate our responsibility, 00:21:14.671 --> 00:21:21.471 in the, like I just don't, for me to, 00:21:23.795 --> 00:21:31.405 I mean this with the best of intentions, for me to care significantly, it would take a lot for me 00:21:31.405 --> 00:21:37.725 to care significantly about what another pastor is doing in their ministry to the point of this 00:21:37.725 --> 00:21:46.445 type of response. Like, it would have to be extraordinary for me. It would have to be 00:21:46.445 --> 00:21:49.919 be unavoidable for me. 00:21:50.766 --> 00:21:54.421 Because, like, I got, the amount of things, 00:22:00.285 --> 00:22:07.485 I have to respond to for my own congregation is like longer than I can reasonably do 00:22:07.485 --> 00:22:10.553 in any given amount of, given period of time. 00:22:10.706 --> 00:22:18.725 And so now I'm going to like see it as my responsibility, as my calling, as my biblical responsibility now, 00:22:19.456 --> 00:22:25.645 to walk around making sure other pastors are doing the thing, both theologically and methodologically 00:22:25.645 --> 00:22:27.125 that I think they should. 00:22:27.125 --> 00:22:31.325 And when I see them not doing it, then I'm gonna call them out because I'm afraid for their people. 00:22:36.011 --> 00:22:41.070 I don't buy it. I don't buy that. I think it's opportunistic. 00:22:41.701 --> 00:22:49.730 I think it's an overstep, maybe, especially like you said, when Mueller's piece, 00:22:49.885 --> 00:22:53.285 his original piece came out pre the conference. 00:22:54.565 --> 00:23:00.485 And maybe without any context as to why the conference was started, 00:23:00.485 --> 00:23:04.085 which I think Andy did a great job of telling that story. 00:23:05.805 --> 00:23:10.845 Essentially, hey, look, world, we have been in this space of ministering to families 00:23:10.845 --> 00:23:14.154 of LGBTQ kids for over a decade. 00:23:15.685 --> 00:23:18.457 And none of y'all cared then. 00:23:20.032 --> 00:23:24.025 Right. None of y'all cared to get involved. None of y'all cared to serve. 00:23:24.025 --> 00:23:28.611 None of y'all cared to like be in this space, But you care now? 00:23:30.646 --> 00:23:37.216 Um, so while I don't necessarily agree with the way that Andy went about it in terms of like, 00:23:38.991 --> 00:23:46.096 at least the advertised content and speakers, some of the methodology, some of the methodology 00:23:46.096 --> 00:23:53.776 of the conference, like I don't think that I think that Mueller's response was a little 00:23:53.776 --> 00:23:58.776 little opportunistic and I don't necessarily believe, 00:24:00.336 --> 00:24:04.976 that it's the responsibility of every local church or every pastor to be holding other local churches 00:24:04.976 --> 00:24:07.136 or other pastors accountable. 00:24:07.136 --> 00:24:09.608 One, because I don't think that's how accountability works in the scripture. 00:24:11.456 --> 00:24:15.027 We don't get to just hold somebody accountable because we wanna hold them accountable. 00:24:15.416 --> 00:24:22.256 Right, well, and even to use the Matthew 18 example, which is always thrown out as like, well, Matthew 18, 00:24:22.256 --> 00:24:25.896 you gotta go to them first and then you're gonna take your brother with you. 00:24:25.896 --> 00:24:33.590 And Jesus is like, hey, if they sin against you, he's not talking about like, if there's any conflict, 00:24:34.616 --> 00:24:40.576 anywhere in the world, the right thing to do is to go and hold that person accountable. 00:24:40.576 --> 00:24:47.498 Like, no, it's like, you sin against me, I sin against you, okay, I'm gonna go to you and say, 00:24:47.856 --> 00:24:52.736 you've sinned against me, this is what you've done, like, let's try to work together, 00:24:52.736 --> 00:24:55.616 don't listen, okay, I'm going to bring a brother with me. You don't listen again, 00:24:55.616 --> 00:24:57.136 oh, I'm going to bring it to the whole church. 00:24:57.914 --> 00:24:58.238 Yeah. 00:24:59.894 --> 00:25:06.115 It's not about like, Andy said something we don't like, let's go hold him accountable. Right, right. 00:25:07.294 --> 00:25:13.616 You don't get to do, like, there's not really a biblical example of that. You don't stand on 00:25:13.616 --> 00:25:22.016 super strong biblical ground, I don't think. I don't… Yeah, well not, I wouldn't, yeah, like, particularly not from a. 00:25:24.317 --> 00:25:32.487 Proof texting place. You can't find the Scripture, verse, and passage that gives us the prescription, 00:25:33.302 --> 00:25:41.367 that to go forth and act like this. But I'm curious then how you would define then the 00:25:41.367 --> 00:25:45.767 conversation we've had the last two weeks, this conversation, last week's conversation. 00:25:46.472 --> 00:25:51.648 Like, I've got reasons why I think we're talking about this, but I'm curious, you know, 00:25:52.468 --> 00:25:55.690 You know, why then are we talking about this? 00:25:56.047 --> 00:25:59.624 Well, I mean, I can tell you the reason I want to talk about it is because other people are talking about it. 00:26:00.506 --> 00:26:07.627 Yeah. You know, I do have thoughts on it. And I do think that like, there is, 00:26:09.687 --> 00:26:14.207 one of the reasons I want to talk about, not just this issue, but issues like it, 00:26:14.361 --> 00:26:16.378 is because I do know that there are people, 00:26:17.407 --> 00:26:24.750 that look to me, look to us, or some sort of way to unravel the ball of yarn, 00:26:27.807 --> 00:26:33.104 that is things like this. And they don't necessarily know even how to begin the conversation. 00:26:37.207 --> 00:26:45.827 And even outside of, like I said, even outside of the specific situation, 00:26:46.527 --> 00:26:49.767 that we're talking about here, there are principles of ministry 00:26:50.082 --> 00:26:53.207 that I think are almost universally applied to churches 00:26:53.207 --> 00:26:55.247 or can be universally applied to churches, 00:26:56.015 --> 00:26:57.725 like the difference between drawing lines and drawing circles, 00:26:59.462 --> 00:27:06.241 the responsibility of one pastor or church to hold another pastor or church accountable. 00:27:09.727 --> 00:27:14.658 I think last week we talked a little bit about the ministry and theology of preaching. Yeah, we did. 00:27:15.207 --> 00:27:22.274 And who we bring on our stages who we allow to preach to our people and what it's like. 00:27:26.064 --> 00:27:30.475 I wouldn't expect that we would be adding significant, 00:27:33.056 --> 00:27:42.496 significant insight into this situation in particular, but I would expect that the principles of the topics 00:27:42.496 --> 00:27:47.480 or the ideas that are rooted in this situation 00:27:47.816 --> 00:27:51.016 are applicable to our context of ministry. 00:27:51.016 --> 00:27:51.558 So that's what we're talking about. 00:27:52.096 --> 00:28:21.896 Yeah, and I, that's essentially what I, you know, what I think about when we talk about these topics is that in a world that's shrunk because of digital media, people are now, you know, you know, everybody's aware of everything else, and everybody else, you know, like, the fact that, you know, the fact that anybody's aware of what some local churches are doing on a large 00:28:21.896 --> 00:28:29.296 scale platform like that is, I think, unique to our age, 00:28:29.296 --> 00:28:29.665 right? 00:28:29.971 --> 00:28:31.856 You know, if you were to go to this generation. 00:28:32.258 --> 00:28:38.802 Yeah. If you were to go decades back and, you know. 00:28:39.964 --> 00:28:46.854 You were to, like, this would have happened, and it wouldn't have been, it would not have, 00:28:47.040 --> 00:28:53.414 not everybody would have known about it as quickly or at all as they do now. And then 00:28:53.521 --> 00:28:59.334 there's that question of like, well, our congregation is being exposed, people we know 00:28:59.334 --> 00:29:06.854 are being exposed to this topic, and they're now having to find a way to sort through with it. 00:29:07.088 --> 00:29:17.809 And, and so it's not that like, like, I don't think either you or I have any illusions that Andy or Moller are listening to our conversation. 00:29:17.863 --> 00:29:31.854 And we're not trying to talk to them. We're trying to talk to those in our context and offer perhaps a way to, to detangle it a little bit and think through it in a critical lens. 00:29:31.854 --> 00:29:35.854 And to be honest with Andy, I think that's what he was trying to do with the conference. 00:29:36.174 --> 00:29:37.854 In fact, he states that. 00:29:38.235 --> 00:29:41.224 Yeah. It wasn't for... It wasn't for everyone else. Right. 00:29:41.962 --> 00:29:51.802 It was for the context that they were ministering in, the people that they had, and the, you know, 300 families or 300 people or whatever who were sitting in this ministry already. 00:29:52.576 --> 00:30:01.254 Yep. So, um, so yeah, I mean, like, I don't know, maybe, you know, we could probably 00:30:01.254 --> 00:30:03.214 beat, beat the horse to death here. 00:30:03.774 --> 00:30:11.014 Um, but, or beat the horse that's already dead, you know, whatever. 00:30:12.814 --> 00:30:16.414 We, we do not support the abuse of animals, just to be clear. 00:30:16.414 --> 00:30:26.713 Be clear. But I guess then, you know, what then does this mean in. 00:30:29.836 --> 00:30:35.013 One of the questions that I think you were beginning to pose, and I think is worth us 00:30:35.278 --> 00:30:48.238 talking about, was that progression of sanctification of like, at what point, right, have you got 00:30:48.238 --> 00:30:51.398 yourself cleaned up enough that you can be at church? 00:30:51.398 --> 00:30:52.171 Part of the community. 00:30:53.152 --> 00:30:57.464 Yeah. Yeah. I have written down here, it's progressive discipleship versus immediate sanctification. 00:30:57.718 --> 00:31:03.028 Which one of those do we expect out of the people that attend our churches? 00:31:03.478 --> 00:31:07.038 Do we expect that they will go through a long-term process of progressive discipleship? 00:31:07.038 --> 00:31:12.358 I think I said last night in Bible study that you could take one step closer to Jesus every 00:31:12.358 --> 00:31:17.035 single day for the rest of your life and still not be close enough to him. 00:31:17.118 --> 00:31:22.678 We don't arrive at a place of being like, I don't necessarily agree with John Wesley 00:31:22.678 --> 00:31:28.498 on that. Like I am fully sanctified in this life. 00:31:30.118 --> 00:31:39.820 So the question there is, or therein, is if we know that there are people. 00:31:43.058 --> 00:31:46.678 Within our congregation whom we are spiritually responsible for, 00:31:46.678 --> 00:31:49.263 whom we are in a pastoral relationship with, 00:31:50.596 --> 00:32:12.538 What level of sanctification, perfection of character and conduct, uniformity of belief, 00:32:12.538 --> 00:32:24.338 uniformity of lifestyle, what do we actually require of them? 00:32:24.543 --> 00:32:30.908 And what do we do with those who never move from the place? 00:32:32.378 --> 00:32:36.768 Who just never move? And we know we have them in our churches. 00:32:37.058 --> 00:32:43.238 We have people in our churches who are no more sanctified in their walk with Jesus than 00:32:43.238 --> 00:32:45.618 they were when they started coming to church 40 years ago. 00:32:46.185 --> 00:32:54.215 Yeah. And a lot of times we're comfortable with it because their starting point was at a nominal place. Right. 00:32:55.238 --> 00:33:01.618 So, do we say to them, hey, look, man, you've got to experience transformation through life 00:33:01.618 --> 00:33:07.340 Christ or we're gonna kick you out mm-hmm like. 00:33:09.258 --> 00:33:19.748 That seems ridiculous to me. It just does, you know? And so, like, but the thing is that, like, 00:33:19.748 --> 00:33:26.388 we get this sense of, like, well, there are sins that we will allow people to sit in. 00:33:28.333 --> 00:33:34.948 Without really calling their non-sanctified behavior to account. We'll let people be 00:33:34.948 --> 00:33:36.548 be prideful all the day, all day. 00:33:37.588 --> 00:33:44.321 Yeah. You know, we'll let people be greedy, gossips all day. Yeah. 00:33:46.068 --> 00:33:51.640 But heaven forbid, if a homosexual couple comes and attends your church. 00:33:52.685 --> 00:33:56.249 Yeah. Heaven forbid it. Well, you gotta call that out immediately. 00:33:56.762 --> 00:33:58.194 Yeah. You gotta hold them accountable. 00:33:58.788 --> 00:34:02.868 You gotta show them the error of their ways and they have to repent of their sin. 00:34:02.868 --> 00:34:05.288 Otherwise expel the immoral brother. 00:34:08.078 --> 00:34:08.699 Yeah. I don't. 00:34:13.468 --> 00:34:18.944 I have like two voices in my head. Well, I do as well. Yeah. but I. 00:34:23.922 --> 00:34:37.552 But yeah, tell me what your voices are saying. Well, one voice is saying something that I see a lot, and that is that. 00:34:42.412 --> 00:35:02.372 The Church, like Church I interact with, like my experience, is that we We are willing to extend so much grace to the non-believer, but the moment you become 00:35:02.372 --> 00:35:06.503 a believer, that grace disappears. 00:35:07.172 --> 00:35:18.332 Okay. Like I see us much more willing to say, like, I can find people who are much more will, 00:35:18.332 --> 00:35:25.012 I think your average person will be much more forgiving of the person who does not profess 00:35:25.012 --> 00:35:33.123 the name of Christ and their sanctification level, where their life is at. 00:35:33.412 --> 00:35:40.772 And then once they become a Christian, it's zero to nothing. 00:35:40.772 --> 00:35:42.692 Not zero to nothing, but zero to a hundred. 00:35:42.972 --> 00:35:46.257 It's like, okay, well, God saved you. 00:35:47.292 --> 00:35:56.394 Now you need to get it together. And we lose, excuse me, we lose any sense of, like, willingness to extend the gospel 00:35:56.826 --> 00:35:58.842 to those who have accepted the gospel. 00:35:59.212 --> 00:36:10.772 I was reading in 2 Timothy, and Paul's verbiage there is so strong, because he says, like, 00:36:10.772 --> 00:36:13.452 if we deny Christ, like, he will also deny us. 00:36:13.452 --> 00:36:17.972 So, if we renounce faith, we have renounced it. 00:36:18.372 --> 00:36:23.012 But if we're faithless, He remains faithful to us. 00:36:24.490 --> 00:36:32.500 Because he cannot deny himself. We have been saved. Even if we fall in, we are faithless, 00:36:32.500 --> 00:36:39.047 we are not faithful to the call that we've been called to as Christians, Christ will not 00:36:39.443 --> 00:36:44.100 be faithless to us. He will be faithful to us because he can do no other because it's in his 00:36:44.100 --> 00:36:53.940 character. And so, that's a, like, those two phrases, right, side by side, are massive, 00:36:54.521 --> 00:36:59.140 like, almost feel contradictory, right? Because one says, like, if we deny him, 00:37:00.067 --> 00:37:09.220 and he will deny us, but if we're faithless, he will remain faithful. And I don't know, 00:37:09.384 --> 00:37:15.460 But the way I understand that is to be is like, if you, as long as you profess Christ, as long as you, 00:37:16.136 --> 00:37:21.140 do not ultimately deny Him, you know, we could talk about what that means, 00:37:21.906 --> 00:37:28.100 but like, even, like, how do we take what Paul says there, we're faithless, He remains faithful to us. 00:37:30.020 --> 00:37:37.700 So, like, I hear that, and I see, you know, that the grace that makes the gospel possible 00:37:37.700 --> 00:37:43.220 Paul remains true for the believer. 00:37:43.295 --> 00:37:55.380 It's Paul's argument in Romans, right? But Paul also, right, he switches his argument and says, should we continue to sin so that 00:37:55.380 --> 00:38:01.780 sin may abound by no means, right? 00:38:01.780 --> 00:38:07.836 And so I also have in my head this idea of cheap grace. 00:38:09.015 --> 00:38:17.105 Right? That's Bonhoeffer, right? And this idea of just, like, of taking what Paul said about grace 00:38:17.105 --> 00:38:24.865 and then not reading forward and saying, well, yeah, you're just free to sin, not free from sin. 00:38:26.020 --> 00:38:34.305 And so I hear both of those voices in my head, and I've seen both in play, where we become so 00:38:34.305 --> 00:38:40.865 rigid that we're unable to extend the same grace of the gospel to those who are already, 00:38:41.450 --> 00:38:50.305 in faith in Christ, but then also I see a significant danger where we get to a place and we, 00:38:50.945 --> 00:38:56.785 are just saying, like, well, you don't have to be holy because he's holy. 00:38:58.438 --> 00:39:06.145 We ignore that passage. We ignore the fact that, like, no, Paul does seem to indicate we should strive to sin no 00:39:06.145 --> 00:39:09.132 more because we're free from sin, right? 00:39:09.825 --> 00:39:15.425 Or in 1 John, say these things to you, not so that you won't sin, but so that when you 00:39:15.425 --> 00:39:20.285 do sin, you repentance and you will be cleansed from all unrighteousness. 00:39:20.285 --> 00:39:29.085 That passage remains true too. So I see this huge dichotomy of like the extent of the gospel and grace to both believers 00:39:29.085 --> 00:39:33.006 and unbelievers, and God's faithfulness to it. 00:39:33.525 --> 00:39:37.913 And I also see the upward call of Christianity to become more like Christ. 00:39:38.645 --> 00:39:41.595 And how dare we not do that? 00:39:42.431 --> 00:39:44.655 Right. And I couldn't agree more. 00:39:46.645 --> 00:39:53.805 I think the, like the, the hinging point though is where's the hinge? 00:39:53.805 --> 00:39:59.653 Tell me, like, no, like what does the church do in response to those that will not be transformed? 00:40:02.865 --> 00:40:12.058 What do we do? Do we allow them to remain in community? Do we tell them that they have to leave? 00:40:13.085 --> 00:40:22.600 Do we do a, do we take the, do we take, do we take Jesus' teaching on the wheat and the weeds? 00:40:22.753 --> 00:40:25.805 Right. Like, hey, the angels will sort it out at the end. 00:40:26.147 --> 00:40:26.805 Right. 00:40:28.136 --> 00:40:32.007 Or do we take Paul's teaching on, do not associate with them and treat them as an unbeliever? 00:40:34.032 --> 00:40:41.405 I don't know. Cameron, you're supposed to know. I don't know. 00:40:41.405 --> 00:40:48.625 I mean, I think that, like, you have the teaching of Jesus, okay, it's like, there's always these things 00:40:48.625 --> 00:40:54.936 where you have, like, you have the teaching of Jesus, the things that he, like, flat out taught. Yeah. 00:40:56.079 --> 00:41:00.505 Then you have the practice of Jesus, which is not always, there's not really, 00:41:00.505 --> 00:41:02.714 There's not really a distinction there. 00:41:04.991 --> 00:41:12.281 You're the teaching of Paul. Yeah. Well, you don't have a whole lot of Like the teaching of Paul ends up being the practice of Paul for us 00:41:12.697 --> 00:41:18.027 Yeah, because he's giving instructions a lot of times and then we're gaining principles from that. Yeah, right, 00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:22.186 so The question is do we want? 00:41:23.081 --> 00:41:30.681 One is do we believe that there is a I mean I guess you could call it a contradiction. Not really but like, 00:41:31.674 --> 00:41:33.240 Is there a difference between? 00:41:34.078 --> 00:41:41.829 Paul's perspective on the manor and his experience in it, then Jesus' teaching on the manor 00:41:42.041 --> 00:41:48.716 and his interaction with those who are like either followers or not followers of him. Yeah. 00:41:50.281 --> 00:41:54.630 You know, he was, Jesus was not afraid to send people away either. 00:41:54.881 --> 00:41:57.601 No. He said, you don't have any idea what it takes to follow me. 00:41:59.806 --> 00:42:05.081 Right. No, and so. The rich young ruler who went away sad because he had much money. Right. 00:42:06.846 --> 00:42:11.824 Yeah, or even disciples like, hey, foxes have holes, birds of air, 00:42:11.921 --> 00:42:15.884 they've got a nest. I don't even have a place to lay down my head. 00:42:16.061 --> 00:42:22.281 So if you're gonna follow me, it's gonna be like picking up an instrument of execution and coming. 00:42:22.281 --> 00:42:26.201 And like many turned away. Right, you came to me. Who can accept this teaching? 00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:29.505 Right, you came to me because you had your fill of bread and fish. 00:42:30.681 --> 00:42:37.237 So Jesus turned people away Or at least made the cost of discipleship so much that they couldn't accept. 00:42:37.940 --> 00:42:39.110 They couldn't follow. 00:42:40.109 --> 00:42:47.481 And so maybe it becomes a communication of the cost of discipleship. 00:42:47.644 --> 00:42:53.451 This is what it requires to follow Jesus. Will you follow him or not? 00:42:53.613 --> 00:43:00.418 And then they self-select whether or not it's something that they will do or not do. 00:43:02.084 --> 00:43:08.862 Still, it feels like, at least experientially for me, that it always, you know, that there 00:43:09.250 --> 00:43:19.161 are some who will desire to be a part of community, but not live a life of repentance. 00:43:19.841 --> 00:43:36.599 So they want to be around the people, but their hearts are stubborn, stubborn hearts. So what do we do? 00:43:36.921 --> 00:43:37.859 Do we allow... 00:43:39.506 --> 00:43:46.492 You know, like from Romans chapter 1, do we show contempt for the kindness, patience, 00:43:46.596 --> 00:43:51.036 tolerance of God that leads them unto repentance? 00:43:51.036 --> 00:43:54.836 By becoming judges? By becoming judgmental of them? Yeah. 00:43:54.836 --> 00:44:00.139 Or do we say, well, it's our responsibility to hold them accountable? 00:44:00.476 --> 00:44:07.756 You know, I wonder, so like, one of the passages, there's more passages to talk about, but one 00:44:07.756 --> 00:44:15.596 of the key passages, I think, is that's in one of the Corinthians, right? Where Paul. 00:44:17.436 --> 00:44:27.196 Tells them to cast the brother out. And that particular circumstance, he was sleeping with his, 00:44:27.836 --> 00:44:30.531 mother... Mother or mother-in-law. 00:44:30.612 --> 00:44:41.996 Mother-in-law potentially. He was doing something wonky. The way it's phrased in the text is with 00:44:41.996 --> 00:44:50.396 his father's wife. And so it's, you know, I don't know, I've studied that passage enough to be able 00:44:50.396 --> 00:44:56.076 to determine exactly what Paul was trying to... If he was trying to be obtuse, like trying to 00:44:56.076 --> 00:45:04.569 obscure the scandalousness of what he was communicating or what, but there's a thing in which Paul indicates, he says, 00:45:05.397 --> 00:45:16.676 the, like you were tolerating something that even the world does not tolerate. Do you think that that is a, 00:45:17.811 --> 00:45:23.240 Interpretive sliding scale? 00:45:25.832 --> 00:45:34.436 Like issue, but like, okay, what's the issue that this guy is like, because I'm not sure what you mean. 00:45:34.436 --> 00:45:40.796 I guess what I mean is like, so that's the passage that's often quoted to talk about church discipline. 00:45:40.796 --> 00:45:46.776 And you know, I did a little bit of listening, podcast listening, trying to find churches 00:45:46.776 --> 00:45:51.216 that practice church discipline and found like, you know, I think I mentioned late last 00:45:51.216 --> 00:45:56.440 episode like the one that like has a list of people who are not allowed to take communion, 00:45:56.616 --> 00:46:01.936 and before communion they read out that list, naming each person and what sin they've done 00:46:01.936 --> 00:46:08.404 and why they can't take communion, which, wow. 00:46:09.043 --> 00:46:13.936 But you've got churches that are doing that, and this is one of the passages they were 00:46:13.936 --> 00:46:19.837 talking about. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, I'm like, okay, well, like. 00:46:23.132 --> 00:46:31.504 Does, you know, this is one of the few places where Paul says, like, cast them out, treat 00:46:31.781 --> 00:46:36.599 them as an unbeliever, particularly there's that out language. 00:46:37.541 --> 00:46:45.511 And I'm wondering, like, does the list of things that merit the casting out change? 00:46:46.261 --> 00:46:47.661 Or is that list stagnant? 00:46:48.257 --> 00:46:53.829 Well, if you take Paul at his word, he lists the things, you know. 00:46:53.981 --> 00:46:58.357 So it's the, I mean, like the reference is 1 Corinthians 5. 00:46:58.781 --> 00:47:05.301 And he goes through the, yeah, he uses this example of, you know, a man, you, it's actually 00:47:05.301 --> 00:47:11.564 reported that there is sexual immorality among you and of a kind that does not even occur among the pagans. 00:47:11.906 --> 00:47:19.621 A man has his father's wife. And you are proud. 00:47:19.621 --> 00:47:24.581 Shouldn't you have been filled with grief and put out of your fellowship the man who 00:47:24.581 --> 00:47:27.624 did this?" Okay? And he keeps going. 00:47:28.587 --> 00:47:32.781 He says, I'm not physically present, but I've already passed judgment on the one who did 00:47:32.781 --> 00:47:34.294 this just as if I were present. 00:47:35.661 --> 00:47:41.101 Verse 4, 1 Corinthians 5, when you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus, and I am with 00:47:41.101 --> 00:47:47.222 you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so. 00:47:48.741 --> 00:47:52.497 That the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. 00:47:54.082 --> 00:48:02.589 Then he talks a little bit about, you know, a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough. 00:48:02.811 --> 00:48:10.411 Get rid of that yeast that a new batch without yeast may exist for you, for Christ, our Passover 00:48:10.411 --> 00:48:11.906 lamb has been sacrificed. 00:48:12.691 --> 00:48:21.646 Seems to be an allusion to like, hey, how can we dishonor the sacrifice of Jesus as a Passover lamb? 00:48:21.931 --> 00:48:26.616 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. 00:48:27.731 --> 00:48:31.231 Not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral or the greedy and the swindlers 00:48:31.231 --> 00:48:34.271 or idolaters. In that case, you'd have to leave the world. 00:48:35.114 --> 00:48:40.110 So don't worry about the world. I'm talking about the people within your fellowship, within the church. 00:48:40.991 --> 00:48:46.471 But now I'm writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a 00:48:46.471 --> 00:48:49.680 a brother, but is sexually immoral or greedy, 00:48:51.911 --> 00:48:58.241 an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 00:49:01.351 --> 00:49:07.909 Okay. God will judge those outside of the church, but you are to expel the wicked man from among you, 00:49:10.142 --> 00:49:11.573 which is a reference to Deuteronomy. 00:49:14.031 --> 00:49:25.711 So you could take it super literally. Yep. And say, well, Paul gives us a list of those sins that would be the disqualifying sins 00:49:25.711 --> 00:49:26.711 from community. 00:49:26.913 --> 00:49:35.258 Sexual immorality, greed, idolatry, slander, drunkenness, or swindling. 00:49:37.791 --> 00:49:39.579 I like that word, swindling. Swindling. 00:49:39.791 --> 00:49:42.793 And then we would have to talk about what it means to be a swindler. 00:49:43.243 --> 00:49:44.431 Does that include MLMs? 00:49:44.631 --> 00:50:01.725 Yeah, hopefully. Or do you think that that, do you think that there's, you know, you said either literally, 00:50:02.220 --> 00:50:12.471 or like, you know, that that communicates a type of kind of a, maybe a category, but 00:50:12.471 --> 00:50:13.471 not specifics. 00:50:13.471 --> 00:50:17.991 Is that where you were going or you're just not even sure? Yeah, I'm not even sure. 00:50:17.991 --> 00:50:25.191 I think like, I think there, you know, if you take it like just for at face value and say, 00:50:25.191 --> 00:50:28.993 okay, this is what Paul did and what he instructed the Corinthians to do. 00:50:31.551 --> 00:50:35.177 He instructed the Corinthians to do so, would he instruct Conduit to do it? 00:50:38.058 --> 00:50:48.948 Um, is it a purely contextual to this situation type of, um, situation? 00:50:50.517 --> 00:50:56.628 Is it a universal or is it a universal command or mandate of the church? 00:50:59.987 --> 00:51:15.788 And whose responsibility is it to do that? to take that person and expel them. The collective body, the leader, the... I think 00:51:15.788 --> 00:51:20.188 honestly, I mean, I think probably, I think one of Paul's major issues in this 00:51:20.188 --> 00:51:25.211 situation is not that there is someone among them that is sexually immoral, but, 00:51:26.028 --> 00:51:33.428 is that they are boasting about it. That they have, that they are even so debased 00:51:33.428 --> 00:51:36.438 in their understanding of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, 00:51:36.848 --> 00:51:41.488 that they're boasting about something that is obviously obvious immorality. 00:51:41.848 --> 00:51:42.118 Yeah. 00:51:42.928 --> 00:51:46.772 Something that he talks to the Romans about the same thing. 00:51:47.688 --> 00:51:51.444 He was like, you know, God has given you over to shameful lusts. 00:51:52.888 --> 00:51:56.728 And you are actually proving and applauding 00:51:56.728 --> 00:51:58.208 of those who do such things. 00:51:58.772 --> 00:52:08.688 Yeah. And so, while I don't necessarily, I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say, well, Paul's 00:52:08.688 --> 00:52:12.402 not actually worried about the sexually immoral person as much as he's worried about the boastful, 00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:15.208 attitude of the Corinthians in the face of sin. 00:52:15.208 --> 00:52:17.749 I don't know that I could go that far. 00:52:18.172 --> 00:52:23.848 Right. But there does seem to be, like, a correlation in the passage of, like, it's not just that 00:52:23.848 --> 00:52:31.368 sexually immoral. It's that he's sexually immoral and considers it to have zero effect on his 00:52:31.368 --> 00:52:36.328 standing as a brother. Yeah, it's that he's sexually immoral and no one cares. 00:52:39.264 --> 00:52:49.617 He doesn't care. And not only is he sexually immoral, he's more sexually immoral than even the world is. Pagans don't do this, Paul says. 00:52:49.688 --> 00:52:50.085 Right. 00:52:51.579 --> 00:52:55.513 So. 00:53:01.356 --> 00:53:06.745 So, do you feel like that fits a different... and like, and I do think, you know, I can't 00:53:06.745 --> 00:53:10.825 make a justification from that, directly from that passage, necessarily, but I do think 00:53:10.825 --> 00:53:20.545 that there is a... we have to, I do think there's a cultural bridge that we have to 00:53:20.891 --> 00:53:29.865 bridge, or gap that we have to bridge, when it comes to, we live in a world where sexual 00:53:29.865 --> 00:53:37.113 Moral immorality is the norm for both heterosexual and homosexual people. 00:53:39.245 --> 00:53:49.095 It is so normalized across the board in so many ways. It's normalized, it's rationalized, it's, yeah. 00:53:49.385 --> 00:53:57.692 And when that is the default position for someone who comes into the church, you know, 00:53:58.805 --> 00:54:03.724 does that context change the way that we have to apply this? 00:54:05.585 --> 00:54:14.745 And, you know, and then this also gets into matters of like church membership versus church attendance 00:54:14.745 --> 00:54:17.074 and who belongs to the flock. 00:54:18.545 --> 00:54:25.785 Yeah, and like, yeah, I mean, Paul, yeah, here Paul includes kind of a rationale 00:54:25.785 --> 00:54:27.498 for why they should be expelled. Right. 00:54:28.905 --> 00:54:33.242 Which is a little yeast works its way through the whole batch of dough. Mm-hmm. 00:54:34.145 --> 00:54:45.359 So does the church leader put others in the fellowship in danger by not pulling out the bad yeast? 00:54:47.745 --> 00:54:48.177 Mm-hmm. 00:54:50.625 --> 00:54:55.585 I think it's hard to argue anything, any other. Any other. Direction. Direction. Yeah. 00:55:04.065 --> 00:55:10.016 But I don't know if there's really any buts about it. I just don't know. 00:55:15.465 --> 00:55:20.981 I don't know how to do that. And if I'm being honest, I don't know if I'm prepared to do that. 00:55:21.225 --> 00:55:23.952 Because at what point do I stop? 00:55:26.445 --> 00:55:30.271 At what point does my own sin disqualify me from being in fellowship? 00:55:33.185 --> 00:55:37.445 Is it like a heart and spirit of repentance? Is that what the issue with Paul here is? 00:55:37.445 --> 00:55:41.405 Is that there's no heart and spirit of repentance. There's no recognition that this is immoral. 00:55:41.405 --> 00:55:46.592 There's no recognition that there is sin here. 00:55:49.525 --> 00:55:56.873 So are their hearts already fully darkened, fully hardened? They're here and they're like, it's not a... 00:55:57.485 --> 00:55:59.250 Unrepentant in it. Yeah. 00:56:02.527 --> 00:56:07.739 So, yeah, maybe that is, you know, hey, I'm, you know, this person is obviously living in sin. 00:56:08.017 --> 00:56:19.361 It's patently obvious to everyone in the community. They're being, they're being, they're allowed to live in sin without any sense of like consequence, 00:56:20.126 --> 00:56:25.923 up until the point where it appears as though there's an affirmation of the lifestyle that's being lived. 00:56:26.297 --> 00:56:34.497 I could run this back into the conversation about the conference, like, right. 00:56:35.988 --> 00:56:49.937 And the apparent affirmation by way of inclusion in community puts others in danger. Yeah. 00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:55.199 Of saying, well, that's okay. Celebrate it. Applaud it. 00:56:55.377 --> 00:57:00.877 I think the way you just formulated that, I think that really gets to the key of that passage. 00:57:01.857 --> 00:57:09.395 That the public open and affirming nature of the unrepentant sin. 00:57:09.857 --> 00:57:10.116 Yeah. 00:57:11.377 --> 00:57:17.092 And I think when you formulate it that way, I think that creates some different boundaries. Sure. 00:57:17.617 --> 00:57:22.476 Than just kind of like, you know, sin hunting. 00:57:23.137 --> 00:57:23.403 Right. 00:57:26.905 --> 00:57:39.297 Right. Yeah, I agree. That wasn't like, that's not a pre panned. No, the plan methodology in my head, but it, it just, it 00:57:39.297 --> 00:57:51.817 feels like it's faithful to the passage, however uncomfortable that is. Without, without understanding it as like you 00:57:51.817 --> 00:57:54.479 said, it's just, we're gonna go run around and sin hunt and get, 00:57:55.317 --> 00:58:00.465 everyone out of the church. That's not, that's immoral, or impure in any way. 00:58:00.582 --> 00:58:03.277 Yeah. Because we wouldn't have a church. 00:58:04.426 --> 00:58:06.956 Right. It was like, no one is righteous, not even one. 00:58:09.233 --> 00:58:16.102 So, right. Because we have people who, like Paul, do what they do not want to do. 00:58:18.551 --> 00:58:33.437 Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if there's anything else that I have about this, I've got pages of notes here. 00:58:38.770 --> 00:58:51.751 Yeah, I don't know if I have anything else here. Yeah. I mean, I think that as hard as it, you know, this is, it is not an uncomplicated pastoral 00:58:51.751 --> 00:58:52.876 issue. 00:58:54.751 --> 00:59:00.751 It's a complicated pastoral issue. I like nine double negatives. 00:59:00.751 --> 00:59:05.309 It makes me sound smart. 00:59:05.511 --> 00:59:13.431 It's a complicated pastoral issue. a complicated church issue, it's a complicated family issue, right? Like, it impacts families, 00:59:13.431 --> 00:59:18.471 and like that percentage of families impacted by conversations like this will only increase, 00:59:18.569 --> 00:59:23.351 and churches that it impacts will increase, and, you know, we do have to, 00:59:25.431 --> 00:59:30.631 find a way to be faithful to the whole counsel of God, and that's hard work. 00:59:32.802 --> 00:59:41.309 Well, we thank you for listening with us here on this topic the last two weeks. 00:59:42.991 --> 00:59:47.871 As always, drop us a question or a comment wherever you're listening. 00:59:48.511 --> 00:59:56.892 716-201-0507 is a text line where you can text us any questions that you might have or comments. 00:59:57.151 --> 00:59:59.916 Like share and subscribe this wherever you're listening to it and we'll catch, 01:00:00.412 --> 01:00:01.834 And we'll see you next time. 01:00:01.840 --> 01:00:11.212 Music.