WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:39.631 --> 00:00:39.901 CJ: All right. 00:00:39.901 --> 00:00:41.091 We're, we're, We're good now. 00:00:41.581 --> 00:00:42.741 , Duke: but what are we talking about today? 00:00:43.321 --> 00:00:43.491 CJ: Duke. 00:00:43.491 --> 00:00:45.261 We got a special guest with us today. 00:00:45.261 --> 00:00:47.641 We've got Mark Bodman. 00:00:47.836 --> 00:00:53.156 Who is the amazing, amazing, amazing expert at DC MDV. 00:00:53.156 --> 00:00:56.186 Duke: And not only CMDB, but also CSDM too, right? 00:00:56.446 --> 00:00:56.556 Mark: CSDM. 00:00:57.136 --> 00:00:57.616 Yes. 00:00:57.616 --> 00:00:58.026 Yes. 00:00:58.126 --> 00:01:01.536 , I was in the room when we created that at a knowledge in 2017. 00:01:01.566 --> 00:01:03.586 So we kind of created the idea to do that. 00:01:03.636 --> 00:01:04.076 So, yeah. 00:01:04.501 --> 00:01:06.321 CJ: Why I thought you were the inventor of it. 00:01:06.351 --> 00:01:08.231 I felt like I'd let you say that part though. 00:01:09.956 --> 00:01:13.256 Mark: Well, I mean, I don't have a history in operations. 00:01:13.256 --> 00:01:15.716 My history is more enterprise architecture, strategic 00:01:15.716 --> 00:01:16.716 planning and development. 00:01:17.331 --> 00:01:20.511 So I don't know how I landed in the CMDB space. 00:01:20.511 --> 00:01:22.091 It was really a little bit of a fluke. 00:01:22.181 --> 00:01:25.551 But yeah, it's proven to be very beneficial for everybody, though. 00:01:26.276 --> 00:01:30.256 Duke: Well, , the reason we reached out to you, Mark, is that, at least 00:01:30.256 --> 00:01:33.116 from my perspective, , the customers I deal with they have a hard enough 00:01:33.116 --> 00:01:41.583 time with CMDB, let alone CSDM, and we're trying to try demystify CMDB, 00:01:41.583 --> 00:01:43.636 demystify CSDM for the everyday person. 00:01:45.041 --> 00:01:47.791 Mark: Yeah, not not an easy thing to do, by the way. 00:01:48.051 --> 00:01:49.231 CJ: I was going to say no pressure. 00:01:49.336 --> 00:01:51.566 Duke: I mean, that's why we, that's why we brought you though. 00:01:51.566 --> 00:01:51.886 Right? 00:01:52.501 --> 00:01:53.931 Mark: yeah, yeah. 00:01:54.311 --> 00:01:56.841 Well, I mean, it really says it in the name. 00:01:56.841 --> 00:01:59.941 When you spell it out, it's the common service data model 00:01:59.961 --> 00:02:01.671 is what CSDM stands for. 00:02:02.041 --> 00:02:06.451 When we started this effort, it was called originally definition of service 00:02:06.941 --> 00:02:11.951 DOS, and that was just a horrible name for many reasons, but we changed it to 00:02:11.951 --> 00:02:16.808 CSDM because it wasn't just defining a service, it was all the other data 00:02:16.828 --> 00:02:19.008 model elements that go along with it. 00:02:19.148 --> 00:02:22.138 So that's kind of how we became CSDM. 00:02:22.883 --> 00:02:24.763 Duke: okay, so you were in the room when it happened. 00:02:24.983 --> 00:02:28.483 What was the catalyst for that conversation to begin with? 00:02:28.698 --> 00:02:30.468 Mark: so little, little background. 00:02:30.468 --> 00:02:36.068 I came in here to service now to manage a product called app portfolio management. 00:02:36.344 --> 00:02:40.334 so my, background is strategic planning, rationalizing apps. 00:02:40.374 --> 00:02:43.914 I used to work for a company called true that did a software. 00:02:44.394 --> 00:02:47.784 I was at HP software as a strategist, their enterprise architect. 00:02:48.184 --> 00:02:51.334 And when I came here to manage APM, I kind of thought, Oh, great. 00:02:51.344 --> 00:02:55.164 You know, we're going to join forces, , same platform, same data model. 00:02:56.004 --> 00:02:59.174 Well, I found out it wasn't really the same data model and we had 00:02:59.184 --> 00:03:02.804 little pockets of data model and , I started running into my, peer product 00:03:02.804 --> 00:03:07.094 managers in terms of like, , what service do I use in my APM product? 00:03:07.094 --> 00:03:07.314 Right. 00:03:07.314 --> 00:03:08.534 Which ones do I refer to? 00:03:08.844 --> 00:03:09.504 And we had like. 00:03:09.814 --> 00:03:12.634 100 different types of services, and I didn't know which one to use, 00:03:13.014 --> 00:03:17.524 and nobody could explain it for me, what services were which, what they 00:03:17.524 --> 00:03:20.554 really meant, and how they were used, you know, by other products here. 00:03:20.554 --> 00:03:22.564 So it was, it was myself. 00:03:22.604 --> 00:03:27.309 There was an ITOM representative, and there was a, I T S M representative 00:03:27.309 --> 00:03:29.179 in the room and we just got together. 00:03:29.179 --> 00:03:33.379 We got our leadership to kind of agree to bring us together and we discussed 00:03:33.399 --> 00:03:34.499 well, we need to sort this out. 00:03:34.939 --> 00:03:37.019 It was an escalation point because we were frustrated. 00:03:37.019 --> 00:03:42.379 Our customers were frustrated and we said, well, we need to be on common ground. 00:03:42.419 --> 00:03:44.179 Hence, the name common service data model. 00:03:45.059 --> 00:03:45.459 CJ: Nice. 00:03:45.869 --> 00:03:47.599 Mark: that was sort of the driver. 00:03:48.129 --> 00:03:53.689 And my colleague scott lem who was in expert services I don't know if any any 00:03:53.689 --> 00:03:56.129 of you guys know scott from from way back 00:03:57.204 --> 00:03:57.834 CJ: I don't. 00:03:58.259 --> 00:03:59.599 Mark: Yeah, so he's been around a while. 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:03.699 He's more heavily focused on asset management, but also heavily on cmdb 00:04:03.699 --> 00:04:08.393 too he started taking this work we were doing right amongst the product managers 00:04:08.763 --> 00:04:12.008 And showing it to customers and they loved it Probably not everybody but a 00:04:12.018 --> 00:04:15.668 lot of them did because it helps sort out where they put their data , it 00:04:15.668 --> 00:04:16.928 just kind of snowballed from there. 00:04:16.928 --> 00:04:18.651 I mean it it's been a long journey. 00:04:18.651 --> 00:04:21.821 I mean The apm product is pretty mature. 00:04:21.821 --> 00:04:22.841 It keeps evolving, right? 00:04:22.881 --> 00:04:28.241 But I I came over to csdm and cmdb to get this thing moving in 00:04:28.241 --> 00:04:31.701 a bigger way and it has it's been it's just taken over most of my life 00:04:32.098 --> 00:04:32.568 CJ: Oh, wow. 00:04:33.758 --> 00:04:35.848 I kind of feel the same way about ServiceNow, truthfully. 00:04:36.408 --> 00:04:40.158 You know, it's interesting to say that on the eve of Knowledge, right? 00:04:40.158 --> 00:04:45.088 Like, where my entire week, honestly, my entire May, you know, revolves around, 00:04:45.098 --> 00:04:46.498 like, two different things, right? 00:04:46.498 --> 00:04:48.378 It revolves around Knowledge. 00:04:48.738 --> 00:04:52.808 And then secondarily, it involves around Mother's Day for my, , for 00:04:52.808 --> 00:04:54.898 my wife, from the kids perspective. 00:04:54.898 --> 00:04:55.168 Right? 00:04:55.168 --> 00:04:59.398 And so, like, those are the two things that exist in May in my life now. 00:04:59.648 --> 00:05:00.818 And, uh, yeah. 00:05:01.028 --> 00:05:03.118 And so, I guess you've got, , the CSDM. 00:05:04.098 --> 00:05:09.448 Mark: Yes, yes, my daughters have, are grown and out of the house. 00:05:09.458 --> 00:05:14.598 So, uh, one of them is one quarter as of today, she's a quarter way 00:05:14.598 --> 00:05:16.138 done with her veterinary degree. 00:05:16.158 --> 00:05:17.918 So she's going to be a veterinary doctor. 00:05:17.938 --> 00:05:18.118 So, 00:05:19.058 --> 00:05:19.608 CJ: That's awesome. 00:05:19.608 --> 00:05:21.343 Ha ha ha ha ha. 00:05:21.563 --> 00:05:28.403 Duke: All right, so forgive me if I'm asking the question a 2nd time, but. 00:05:29.074 --> 00:05:33.994 if we just erased all the progress you guys made on CSDM, to the average 00:05:34.004 --> 00:05:40.394 ServiceNow customer, what is the, like, the annoying, frustrating, itchy pain? 00:05:40.844 --> 00:05:43.224 What is the gaping wound that's still left over? 00:05:44.254 --> 00:05:44.604 Mark: yeah. 00:05:44.604 --> 00:05:47.434 So if CSDM weren't here, okay. 00:05:48.224 --> 00:05:52.031 There would be a couple of problems, i'll start with the internal problems with 00:05:52.031 --> 00:05:55.614 our plus product managers We've grown a lot right when I joined the company. 00:05:55.614 --> 00:05:59.901 We're like 4 000 people now We're 24 000 and there's a lot of products 00:05:59.931 --> 00:06:03.141 as you probably know we've kind of expanded into so many other areas 00:06:03.288 --> 00:06:09.028 And the first problem is our product management folks wouldn't know how to 00:06:09.028 --> 00:06:12.808 talk to each other, what our data is, what is common across the products. 00:06:13.008 --> 00:06:16.094 We would design complete isolated products on this platform. 00:06:16.134 --> 00:06:17.834 Nothing would talk to anything else. 00:06:18.374 --> 00:06:19.264 That would be the result. 00:06:19.626 --> 00:06:21.786 And if we did talk to each other, it would be accidental. 00:06:21.876 --> 00:06:23.776 It's like, Oh, everybody uses the CMDB. 00:06:24.176 --> 00:06:24.626 Oh yeah. 00:06:24.686 --> 00:06:25.996 Car sorta, not the same way. 00:06:25.996 --> 00:06:27.736 So we would all be in little pockets. 00:06:27.976 --> 00:06:29.836 The advantage of being on the platform. 00:06:30.076 --> 00:06:33.796 I always tell customers is we can share our data. 00:06:33.846 --> 00:06:35.926 We can share and contribute to the data that we use. 00:06:35.926 --> 00:06:38.173 So we need, not just the workflow. 00:06:38.183 --> 00:06:40.743 So workflows we talk about quite a bit, but. 00:06:41.053 --> 00:06:43.073 A lot of the workflows have to refer to the same data. 00:06:43.133 --> 00:06:44.733 I'll just pick on like locations. 00:06:44.753 --> 00:06:45.553 That's an easy one. 00:06:46.313 --> 00:06:49.733 The location hierarchy is shared by a lot of different processes 00:06:49.733 --> 00:06:51.793 and workflows in the platform. 00:06:51.793 --> 00:06:55.046 But if that ain't right, everybody's going to be off on a different page 00:06:55.076 --> 00:06:56.856 with, with regards to a location data. 00:06:57.156 --> 00:07:00.876 that's a simple one, but that gets, that's, that's our first problem is 00:07:01.266 --> 00:07:05.173 the products themselves would be all isolated or it'd be a jumbled mess. 00:07:05.633 --> 00:07:08.543 CJ: Yeah, I got to tell you, I like that you, you picked on the location 00:07:08.543 --> 00:07:13.366 table there because even prior to , the CSDM, one of the things that I always 00:07:13.396 --> 00:07:17.576 found that was common across like the various, processes and service now was. 00:07:18.131 --> 00:07:19.051 Location, right? 00:07:19.061 --> 00:07:23.921 Like you had a, you have a request or a client that's, part of a process, right? 00:07:24.091 --> 00:07:27.301 And you often want to know where they are so that you can call 00:07:27.301 --> 00:07:30.921 them back or send someone to their desk or, anything like that. 00:07:30.921 --> 00:07:33.381 And , one of the early selling points for us when I was still on 00:07:33.381 --> 00:07:37.591 the service, now customer side was the fact that the data model, , even 00:07:37.691 --> 00:07:42.811 started in a place where a lot of those common, , feels like that were. 00:07:42.811 --> 00:07:45.111 federated across some of the processes. 00:07:45.111 --> 00:07:48.101 And of course, CSDM just takes it to the next level, right? 00:07:48.391 --> 00:07:52.361 Mark: Yeah, we kind of stepped in to manage what's common because 00:07:52.361 --> 00:07:55.481 there was nobody it's kind of like, you know, you own it. 00:07:55.481 --> 00:07:56.271 No, you want it. 00:07:56.271 --> 00:07:57.031 No, you want it. 00:07:57.051 --> 00:08:00.681 Nobody really took ownership of this stuff, which was common. 00:08:00.681 --> 00:08:02.881 And we kind of stepped in and we do that. 00:08:03.204 --> 00:08:07.734 Duke: Are the CSDM tables in the CMDB, or are they just a collection of tables 00:08:08.484 --> 00:08:10.964 Mark: some are, yeah, some are and some are not. 00:08:11.154 --> 00:08:15.674 I'll pick on service for a minute because under the covers, 00:08:15.894 --> 00:08:18.014 the service tables are C. 00:08:18.014 --> 00:08:18.184 I. 00:08:18.184 --> 00:08:18.404 S. 00:08:18.494 --> 00:08:19.464 We treat them like C. 00:08:19.464 --> 00:08:19.644 I. 00:08:19.644 --> 00:08:19.804 S. 00:08:20.494 --> 00:08:22.924 But they're not really representative infrastructure. 00:08:23.264 --> 00:08:26.974 So if you're an item customer, you're managing data centers. 00:08:26.994 --> 00:08:29.584 You don't really think about the services when you're C. 00:08:29.584 --> 00:08:29.794 I. 00:08:29.804 --> 00:08:29.844 S. 00:08:30.344 --> 00:08:35.443 So the lines of your traditional cmdb are blurry, but when I came aboard 00:08:35.453 --> 00:08:38.963 the business applications, that's an architecture thing It's very high level. 00:08:39.273 --> 00:08:41.359 Like I said, my background is strategic planning. 00:08:41.969 --> 00:08:45.953 It's in it's a they're a ci there's but they're not a traditional operational 00:08:45.973 --> 00:08:50.838 thing That, you know, you would discover they're not representative 00:08:50.968 --> 00:08:52.608 of something in the data center. 00:08:52.648 --> 00:08:53.828 It's a higher level concept. 00:08:53.838 --> 00:08:57.228 , so that's what kind of drove us to work together to figure out what is the 00:08:57.228 --> 00:08:59.608 right data model for us to all coexist. 00:08:59.888 --> 00:09:01.208 We're all in the same boat. 00:09:01.738 --> 00:09:06.028 How do we all create our own little room, but then what's the common area? 00:09:06.088 --> 00:09:09.388 I was in the military and you live in barracks and, , you've got your own 00:09:09.388 --> 00:09:12.478 room, but, and you got to share the common stuff, you know, the bathrooms 00:09:12.478 --> 00:09:14.168 and the common eating areas and whatnot. 00:09:14.168 --> 00:09:15.378 So that's the idea. 00:09:15.721 --> 00:09:16.751 CJ: I like that analogy. 00:09:17.251 --> 00:09:17.551 Mark: Yeah. 00:09:18.104 --> 00:09:20.104 the second big driver is customers. 00:09:20.104 --> 00:09:20.914 They were frustrated. 00:09:20.944 --> 00:09:25.764 I remember my first customer that I, when I first came here in 2016, I went 00:09:25.774 --> 00:09:28.384 to visit a customer in Atlanta and. 00:09:28.704 --> 00:09:33.184 They were frustrated because they had all these questions about, well, why are 00:09:33.184 --> 00:09:36.614 you having me enter the same information in three different places, Mark? 00:09:36.614 --> 00:09:38.154 And I'm like, I didn't have an answer. 00:09:38.544 --> 00:09:39.604 Like, I don't know. 00:09:39.744 --> 00:09:41.914 It's you have three different products. 00:09:41.914 --> 00:09:44.494 You're going to have to enter the same information in three different places. 00:09:44.524 --> 00:09:44.944 Good luck. 00:09:45.434 --> 00:09:47.044 That's not a very good answer, right? 00:09:47.064 --> 00:09:48.314 You know, we're on the same platform. 00:09:48.314 --> 00:09:49.174 Why aren't we sharing? 00:09:49.194 --> 00:09:53.438 So I was exposed to the need from customers right off the 00:09:53.438 --> 00:09:54.308 bat, right when I joined. 00:09:54.833 --> 00:09:57.333 Duke: where were they having to put information multiple places? 00:09:57.443 --> 00:09:59.213 Mark: Oh, well, locations one 00:10:00.543 --> 00:10:00.653 Duke: Heh. 00:10:01.283 --> 00:10:02.033 Mark: picked on that one. 00:10:02.219 --> 00:10:04.739 we also had issues with services. 00:10:04.789 --> 00:10:07.699 We had over 45 different types of services. 00:10:08.059 --> 00:10:10.499 And this particular customer was implementing I T. 00:10:10.499 --> 00:10:10.659 F. 00:10:10.659 --> 00:10:10.929 M. 00:10:11.319 --> 00:10:12.839 And there was something called the financial I. 00:10:12.839 --> 00:10:13.029 T. 00:10:13.029 --> 00:10:13.489 Service. 00:10:13.529 --> 00:10:17.019 And they're like, Mark, these are the same as the services I'm using for I. 00:10:17.019 --> 00:10:17.169 T. 00:10:17.169 --> 00:10:17.279 S. 00:10:17.309 --> 00:10:17.649 M. 00:10:17.869 --> 00:10:21.279 You know, this is the basic business service table and i'm like, well, I 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:24.279 don't know why you're having to create it twice So you get you got two products. 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:25.259 You have to create it twice. 00:10:25.339 --> 00:10:30.249 Oh add a third one You got another table to populate so you add that out to 45 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:33.799 different tables And the customer is scratching their head saying you're asking 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:37.989 me to enter the same exact detail in 45 different places Why would you want me to 00:10:37.989 --> 00:10:39.999 do that if you're all on the same platform 00:10:40.261 --> 00:10:42.721 CJ: Yeah, you know, and that makes a lot of sense to write, like 00:10:42.721 --> 00:10:43.951 when you think about it, right? 00:10:43.951 --> 00:10:47.358 You should only have to enter like common data or found, is where 00:10:47.718 --> 00:10:48.878 we're calling the common data here. 00:10:49.088 --> 00:10:51.508 But, you know, as we're talking about it, because I haven't done 00:10:51.508 --> 00:10:55.618 like a phase 1 implementation and in a while, but when I'm. 00:10:55.838 --> 00:10:58.038 When I'm doing those things with my customers, I call 00:10:58.038 --> 00:10:59.728 it foundational data, right? 00:10:59.778 --> 00:11:02.318 Uh, and it's the same thing, though, right? 00:11:02.658 --> 00:11:06.148 , you want to populate that data in an instance because so much builds on top 00:11:06.158 --> 00:11:09.798 of it, but you don't want to be entering it in several different places, right? 00:11:09.858 --> 00:11:10.988 , all across the platform, right? 00:11:10.988 --> 00:11:14.793 Because then, I mean, it's the redundancy, but let's, even That 00:11:14.793 --> 00:11:16.373 to the side for a second, right? 00:11:16.573 --> 00:11:20.273 Like the redundancy to me is like it is an issue, but it's a smaller 00:11:20.283 --> 00:11:25.293 issue compared to the inability to keep it in sync and keep it accurate, 00:11:25.628 --> 00:11:25.768 Mark: Yes. 00:11:25.768 --> 00:11:26.608 Yes. 00:11:26.608 --> 00:11:27.447 Yes. 00:11:27.908 --> 00:11:28.658 Not only that, but 00:11:28.698 --> 00:11:31.616 common logic would say if you're on the same platform and, there's 00:11:31.616 --> 00:11:33.286 no reason to have separate data. 00:11:33.936 --> 00:11:36.886 , and a matter of fact, one of the things we train our customers or 00:11:36.906 --> 00:11:40.616 our product managers when they come aboard is that before you create 00:11:40.616 --> 00:11:44.206 your own separate structures, look at the common data, right? 00:11:44.216 --> 00:11:46.606 Is there something already there that you can use? 00:11:47.166 --> 00:11:48.896 , I'll give you an example in the location. 00:11:48.906 --> 00:11:52.646 We had these products that came out, get back to work and if you bought that 00:11:52.646 --> 00:11:56.616 product, It had a completely separate data structure for locations like your 00:11:56.626 --> 00:12:01.716 buildings where you work than the common location table, and I heard about it 00:12:01.716 --> 00:12:05.056 almost immediately because the product team just created their own space. 00:12:05.056 --> 00:12:07.446 And now customers are saying, wait a minute, why? 00:12:07.466 --> 00:12:07.856 Why? 00:12:08.256 --> 00:12:12.006 It's a it was a never ending stream of complaints from customers 00:12:12.006 --> 00:12:14.176 that were questioning the fact that we're not sharing data. 00:12:14.536 --> 00:12:16.766 CJ: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, especially when you're when you 00:12:16.766 --> 00:12:17.866 start to get used to it, right? 00:12:17.866 --> 00:12:19.899 Like, at this point, service now has continues to get mature 00:12:19.899 --> 00:12:20.799 with each release, right? 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:24.054 But it's a, you know, if you look at it from, say, Berlin or 00:12:24.054 --> 00:12:27.394 Calgary versus now, I mean, we're almost at the end of the alphabet. 00:12:27.394 --> 00:12:28.134 This is crazy. 00:12:28.134 --> 00:12:28.494 I am. 00:12:28.694 --> 00:12:29.304 This is nuts. 00:12:29.444 --> 00:12:31.924 Um, but we're almost at the end of the alphabet, right? 00:12:31.924 --> 00:12:35.374 And the level of maturity that's occurred over the course of the alphabet, 00:12:35.664 --> 00:12:41.634 It's so insane that when you join the, , platform now, like you would just 00:12:41.674 --> 00:12:44.204 expect this stuff to work in this way. 00:12:44.584 --> 00:12:44.864 Right. 00:12:45.354 --> 00:12:45.664 Yeah. 00:12:45.664 --> 00:12:50.614 Whereas if you've been around for a while, like you remember when it didn't and 00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:53.609 Mark: Well, there was fewer products on the platform that 00:12:53.619 --> 00:12:54.839 depended on the data, right? 00:12:54.839 --> 00:12:57.799 When back when we were just service management, it was no big deal 00:12:57.809 --> 00:13:00.029 because we didn't have much of a CMDB. 00:13:00.029 --> 00:13:03.919 We didn't have ITOM visibility or ITOM health or cloud. 00:13:04.361 --> 00:13:07.901 And the stuff I personally worked on with APM, we didn't, you know, 00:13:07.901 --> 00:13:14.604 or PPM, all of these things, Agile, SecOps, so also Business Continuity, 00:13:14.874 --> 00:13:18.858 Disaster Recovery Planning, imagine if they all started from scratch. 00:13:19.313 --> 00:13:22.403 Rather than using each other's data, I mean, it would be so much 00:13:22.403 --> 00:13:25.383 more expensive to manage and get those products up and running if 00:13:25.383 --> 00:13:26.753 they didn't use each other's data. 00:13:27.118 --> 00:13:28.318 CJ: yeah, that's a good point. 00:13:28.338 --> 00:13:29.288 Expensive, right? 00:13:29.288 --> 00:13:31.858 Because that does, you know, going back to the manual upkeep 00:13:31.858 --> 00:13:33.258 and the manual population, right. 00:13:33.258 --> 00:13:36.028 That does require, resources and it does. 00:13:36.438 --> 00:13:39.708 Limit , some of the higher level stuff that you can do immediately because 00:13:39.708 --> 00:13:41.358 you're populating that low level data. 00:13:41.383 --> 00:13:41.853 Mark: That's right. 00:13:41.963 --> 00:13:45.823 And at the center of it is really what's in the data center or in the cloud. 00:13:45.953 --> 00:13:51.863 we're here in it to create and maintain what I call digital products were there 00:13:51.863 --> 00:13:57.403 to create code that runs somewhere to do some job, , or provide, a customer feature 00:13:57.753 --> 00:14:00.143 or an internal employee, some automation. 00:14:01.354 --> 00:14:04.274 , that's where everything starts, but then everything else around it, 00:14:04.274 --> 00:14:08.494 services, the apps, the planning, , the jobs that, you know, tasks people 00:14:08.494 --> 00:14:10.544 do, it's all contextual to that. 00:14:10.584 --> 00:14:14.804 It's all surrounding the stuff you're managing in data centers, 00:14:14.804 --> 00:14:16.364 which is where the CMDB sits. 00:14:17.084 --> 00:14:17.294 CJ: Okay. 00:14:17.674 --> 00:14:20.064 So wait, I just, just, I want to just back up on that. 00:14:20.074 --> 00:14:24.034 And you said we're here to provide, and can you say that part again? 00:14:24.034 --> 00:14:28.174 Because I think that's really key for a lot of consultants out there to hear. 00:14:28.444 --> 00:14:29.594 Um, yeah. 00:14:30.474 --> 00:14:30.844 Mark: Yeah. 00:14:30.864 --> 00:14:33.534 I mean, ultimately, the infrastructure is there to provide 00:14:33.534 --> 00:14:35.334 applications that run the business. 00:14:36.104 --> 00:14:40.674 And these are services that we automate, you know, self service, , health 00:14:40.684 --> 00:14:44.674 care, , if you're in the health care business, automation of factories, 00:14:44.684 --> 00:14:46.364 if you're in a factory situation. 00:14:46.764 --> 00:14:49.778 So you have all these All this automation in I. 00:14:49.808 --> 00:14:50.208 T. 00:14:50.208 --> 00:14:53.118 Which is providing the core value for your business. 00:14:53.178 --> 00:14:55.921 And so, at the root of it is what's running in the data center. 00:14:55.921 --> 00:15:00.971 It's the CMDB that represents the core entity, which is 00:15:00.981 --> 00:15:02.691 compute with code running on it. 00:15:02.821 --> 00:15:05.244 And, , that's what everything else is context from there. 00:15:05.904 --> 00:15:12.194 Duke: Would you say that people should have a decent CMDB before doing anything 00:15:12.194 --> 00:15:14.534 CSDM wise, or do they go in parallel? 00:15:15.449 --> 00:15:16.709 Mark: Yeah, they're in parallel. 00:15:16.769 --> 00:15:19.929 I mean, we came out with this framework called crawl, walk, run, 00:15:19.929 --> 00:15:22.529 fly, and that's in our CSDM training. 00:15:22.529 --> 00:15:26.569 You can get online learning in a bunch of videos that we've recorded over the years. 00:15:26.669 --> 00:15:31.659 , but it is, it does start with a CMDB perspective, and I like to think about 00:15:31.659 --> 00:15:34.289 it is the stuff you can go out and touch. 00:15:34.718 --> 00:15:38.664 it's you know, you're managing assets you're paying for It's real money 00:15:39.054 --> 00:15:43.794 being spent on real things cloud or on premise You start with that 00:15:43.974 --> 00:15:45.478 because you can go in inventory. 00:15:45.478 --> 00:15:46.548 You can discover it. 00:15:46.731 --> 00:15:51.238 Then you build on that to understand what you think you have i'll just 00:15:51.238 --> 00:15:52.498 give you a story from my past. 00:15:52.528 --> 00:15:57.878 I was at dell for many years and One of the things that I we did at 00:15:57.888 --> 00:16:01.293 dell was we You Took an inventory of our applications because we didn't 00:16:01.293 --> 00:16:02.843 really know all the apps that we had. 00:16:03.273 --> 00:16:06.153 We had 12, 000 after we came up with the inventory. 00:16:06.593 --> 00:16:09.273 Well, those, that inventory was not connected to what was 00:16:09.273 --> 00:16:10.273 running in the data center. 00:16:10.616 --> 00:16:14.396 And so we thought we had 12, 000 apps, but in reality it was 00:16:14.396 --> 00:16:16.696 six because people miscounted. 00:16:17.123 --> 00:16:21.443 and then we further found out a thousand data, uh, servers in the 00:16:21.443 --> 00:16:22.973 data center that had no purpose. 00:16:23.053 --> 00:16:26.963 Like, okay, these apps don't tie out to anything in the data center. 00:16:27.923 --> 00:16:28.223 And we, 00:16:29.403 --> 00:16:44.507 Duke: Silence. 00:16:44.683 --> 00:16:49.413 Mark: um, you know, you gotta have a tighter control from what you think 00:16:49.413 --> 00:16:52.113 you have from an application point of view to the stuff in the data 00:16:52.113 --> 00:16:53.973 center you're managing every day. 00:16:54.093 --> 00:16:54.903 And if that's not. 00:16:55.473 --> 00:16:57.053 That's what we focused in on crawl. 00:16:57.063 --> 00:17:01.693 It's like, okay, if you can't manage this it shops, then anything you do 00:17:01.693 --> 00:17:03.213 beyond that is going to be questionable. 00:17:03.513 --> 00:17:03.993 CJ: Yeah. 00:17:04.223 --> 00:17:06.779 And, and that, makes a whole lot of sense to me, it all 00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:07.879 needs to be coupled together. 00:17:07.879 --> 00:17:11.889 You all need, you need to manage it in such a way so that, you absolutely 00:17:11.889 --> 00:17:15.699 know what you have without having to, , without having to guess. 00:17:16.059 --> 00:17:16.359 Really? 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:17.579 Because yeah. 00:17:17.929 --> 00:17:18.209 Because, 00:17:18.459 --> 00:17:21.489 Mark: a store and not knowing what's in the store at any given time. 00:17:21.499 --> 00:17:26.219 So you can reorder the right stuff or, you know, it was broken or stolen, right? 00:17:26.259 --> 00:17:31.299 You gotta go back and inventory what's in your store every period to make sure 00:17:31.299 --> 00:17:33.909 you're, you're making up for anything that happened that you didn't expect. 00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:36.309 CJ: yeah, absolutely. 00:17:36.469 --> 00:17:40.993 So I think one of the more confusing parts of the CSDM for me, is the 00:17:41.113 --> 00:17:46.713 various different types of services that all seem to be like almost the 00:17:46.713 --> 00:17:48.863 same service, but slightly different. 00:17:49.173 --> 00:17:55.733 And, and, and when, which is called for in the course of an implementation. 00:17:56.158 --> 00:18:00.278 Mark: Well Luckily, you don't you didn't see the 45 or by by some counts. 00:18:00.288 --> 00:18:04.598 Somebody said we had 130 different types of services Okay, so it's 00:18:04.628 --> 00:18:06.108 a lot easier than it used to be. 00:18:06.308 --> 00:18:07.398 but there's only three now. 00:18:07.428 --> 00:18:08.088 There's only three 00:18:08.683 --> 00:18:09.073 CJ: Okay. 00:18:09.468 --> 00:18:09.808 Mark: All right. 00:18:09.858 --> 00:18:13.758 So so the first one is a business service the best way to think about business 00:18:13.758 --> 00:18:16.298 services I know it's the last mile. 00:18:16.298 --> 00:18:20.188 It's like the power line connecting your house You are, you know who 00:18:20.188 --> 00:18:23.118 the customer is, you know where the customer is, location, right? 00:18:23.408 --> 00:18:26.278 , and you know the impact to the customer at that point. 00:18:26.358 --> 00:18:35.467 Duke: Okay. 00:18:35.828 --> 00:18:39.614 Mark: and states Everybody's kind of connected in there's a lot of impact 00:18:39.664 --> 00:18:44.074 if they go down , but things like ldap storage services that are kind of under 00:18:44.074 --> 00:18:49.464 the covers a layer or two down underneath the application Design the architecture 00:18:49.464 --> 00:18:53.354 of the app and the last thing Last applicant is the application service. 00:18:53.374 --> 00:18:57.224 And to me, that's the one that's most controversial because the app 00:18:57.224 --> 00:19:03.394 service represents logically the instance of an app, including all of 00:19:03.394 --> 00:19:06.604 its infrastructure network devices. 00:19:07.274 --> 00:19:10.604 And so when I think about an application like service now, you 00:19:10.604 --> 00:19:11.804 know, you have to stand that up. 00:19:12.014 --> 00:19:13.404 We run on our infrastructure. 00:19:13.404 --> 00:19:14.124 We have resource. 00:19:14.304 --> 00:19:15.114 There's a database. 00:19:15.144 --> 00:19:16.444 There's storage, right? 00:19:16.454 --> 00:19:21.398 All of these pieces are required to work together to make, , service network. 00:19:21.608 --> 00:19:24.608 Now you don't have access to that as a customer, but we have to manage it. 00:19:24.909 --> 00:19:25.199 CJ: So, 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:27.399 Duke: to, I want to trouble click on that too, because that's 00:19:28.059 --> 00:19:30.816 basically how I test myself. 00:19:30.826 --> 00:19:34.426 If I get it or not, what I'm building in service now is like, can I 00:19:34.446 --> 00:19:36.606 model service now in service now? 00:19:36.766 --> 00:19:39.096 But from the customer perspective, of course, I don't have to worry 00:19:39.096 --> 00:19:42.593 about, the cloud or as I like to call it, somebody else's computer. 00:19:42.789 --> 00:19:45.539 there's so many applications within ServiceNow. 00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:48.734 Like when I was the product owner at a company, it was like, okay, 00:19:48.734 --> 00:19:51.794 well we've got ServiceNow in general. 00:19:52.154 --> 00:19:58.304 We've got G-R-C-S-P-M-I-T-S-M, and the 40 different apps underneath that. 00:19:58.654 --> 00:20:01.704 How do you model all of that in the CMBB 00:20:02.034 --> 00:20:02.964 Mark: Yeah, so 00:20:03.044 --> 00:20:07.784 Duke: Is that more of A-C-M-B-B question or more of A-C-S-D-M question or both? 00:20:08.044 --> 00:20:09.374 Mark: yeah, it's a both. 00:20:09.624 --> 00:20:14.844 And matter of fact, there's less, I would say, requirement for plastic seem 00:20:14.844 --> 00:20:18.304 to be an infrastructure because that's not a big part of modeling service. 00:20:18.304 --> 00:20:20.424 Now it's, it's more at the logical level. 00:20:21.004 --> 00:20:22.584 It's the app service structures. 00:20:22.914 --> 00:20:27.834 We, You have in our youtube channel a number of examples and platforms. 00:20:27.874 --> 00:20:33.401 It's we're a platform That's kind of our shtick and we have a a example model 00:20:33.401 --> 00:20:37.571 on how to model any platform Not just service now, right but sap is considered 00:20:37.571 --> 00:20:42.861 a platform sharepoint in all the sites So that sharepoint is considered a platform. 00:20:42.861 --> 00:20:46.615 It's there to host many sites so there's a pattern for that. 00:20:46.645 --> 00:20:47.305 I'm an architect. 00:20:47.305 --> 00:20:51.885 They think about patterns and the reusability of these patterns And so 00:20:51.935 --> 00:20:56.973 as a platform we have structures In the CSDM that explain exactly that. 00:20:56.983 --> 00:21:05.343 So we use the app service to decouple and delineate the application from a instance 00:21:05.343 --> 00:21:09.943 of the, platform and the products that run on it, because oftentimes in a company, 00:21:09.943 --> 00:21:14.303 a big company, you'll have a platform owner, which manages the platform itself, 00:21:14.813 --> 00:21:18.663 and then each product does something different for some other stakeholder. 00:21:19.093 --> 00:21:22.783 So we have to decouple those in how we're managing them operationally. 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:23.890 I don't know if that helps. 00:21:23.930 --> 00:21:25.190 It's hard to do this without a 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:26.190 Duke: Yeah, it's like 00:21:26.375 --> 00:21:27.191 CJ: Ha ha ha. 00:21:27.510 --> 00:21:29.290 Duke: time we're sorry, we're audio only, 00:21:29.330 --> 00:21:33.990 Mark: you know, but I mean, think about ownership and responsibility 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:36.740 that drives that logical layer, right? 00:21:36.740 --> 00:21:39.290 When we're when we're talking about Oh, what do you own? 00:21:39.300 --> 00:21:40.120 What do you not own? 00:21:40.460 --> 00:21:41.940 You got to point to something. 00:21:41.970 --> 00:21:46.310 And even if it's in the cloud and service now platform, you got to separate out the 00:21:46.320 --> 00:21:50.470 owner of the platform versus the Owner of the apps like I own change management. 00:21:50.470 --> 00:21:51.610 I don't own the service now. 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:55.730 So there's a different person That's got to approve the upgrade to change 00:21:55.730 --> 00:21:59.270 management if you want to upgrade that versus just the whole darn platform 00:22:00.905 --> 00:22:02.685 Duke: and it's not just the ownership as much. 00:22:03.105 --> 00:22:06.425 I mean, just the fact that the separate things exist on it. 00:22:06.435 --> 00:22:12.245 So you can, as a service now product or platform owner, you can see the types of 00:22:12.245 --> 00:22:14.005 things that eat up all your resources. 00:22:14.050 --> 00:22:14.730 Mark: Exactly. 00:22:15.105 --> 00:22:16.345 Duke: why do we have to spit? 00:22:16.345 --> 00:22:20.705 Like, why is like, 80 percent of our work focused on incident management 00:22:20.870 --> 00:22:21.310 Mark: That's right 00:22:21.625 --> 00:22:27.556 Duke: You know and Silence. 00:22:27.685 --> 00:22:32.415 Mark: there's a cost to it as well And there's controls to who can access 00:22:32.415 --> 00:22:37.615 these products that we sell who's accessing hrsd versus , I don't know 00:22:37.615 --> 00:22:40.075 itfm or apm or you know, you name it. 00:22:40.555 --> 00:22:44.341 So there's different controls That we want to put in place 00:22:44.361 --> 00:22:45.781 for the apps on the platform 00:22:48.936 --> 00:22:49.926 CJ: That's interesting. 00:22:50.126 --> 00:22:53.076 , and the way that you said that, and I just wanna bring back in what you said 00:22:53.076 --> 00:22:54.666 previous , to Duke's question here. 00:22:54.876 --> 00:22:58.066 'cause it made me think to how much of the CSDM. 00:22:58.351 --> 00:23:01.811 Came out of, uh, you know, because again, right knowledge is next week. 00:23:02.091 --> 00:23:05.041 How much of the CSDM came out of now on now work 00:23:05.558 --> 00:23:07.938 Mark: Believe it or not Not a helpful 00:23:08.678 --> 00:23:09.318 CJ: really 00:23:09.698 --> 00:23:14.265 Mark: Yeah, and here's the reason we we have used service now to run service 00:23:14.265 --> 00:23:16.685 now for years We have I don't know. 00:23:16.685 --> 00:23:20.696 We probably have about 10 different instances of service now running to run 00:23:20.696 --> 00:23:22.379 our company different complete proper. 00:23:22.379 --> 00:23:23.741 They're not integrated, right? 00:23:23.741 --> 00:23:27.635 But they're well, they're integrated but not on the same platform instance 00:23:28.205 --> 00:23:31.580 So We have a lot of legacy that we're cleaning up and that's kind of where 00:23:31.580 --> 00:23:35.930 a lot of customers are at too, if they've been on since Aspen or before, 00:23:36.126 --> 00:23:40.696 Calgary, so they've got a lot of unique customizations they've built. 00:23:40.706 --> 00:23:41.836 They've got their own data model. 00:23:41.836 --> 00:23:46.056 They've got, a huge amount of reporting and in workflow, all, all kind of 00:23:46.086 --> 00:23:48.846 custom made around their custom model. 00:23:49.386 --> 00:23:53.786 , and that's where a lot of customers are trying to, , move over to CSDM. 00:23:54.191 --> 00:23:56.678 And, we're included, we're not quite there yet. 00:23:56.718 --> 00:23:59.758 The app service for us is really the key area we're working on now. 00:24:00.558 --> 00:24:01.058 CJ: nice. 00:24:01.298 --> 00:24:03.708 So if I were to ask you , and I'm going to treat this a little bit 00:24:03.708 --> 00:24:04.758 like a working session, right. 00:24:04.758 --> 00:24:07.598 I'm going to, put myself in the shoes of the audience. 00:24:07.628 --> 00:24:10.768 And if I was to say, what's the thing that's most. 00:24:11.403 --> 00:24:15.623 , commonly done incorrectly with the CSDM or most or least commonly 00:24:15.623 --> 00:24:17.263 understood, what would you say, Mark? 00:24:17.838 --> 00:24:20.788 Mark: Well, one is what you already asked, the difference between these 00:24:20.788 --> 00:24:24.788 services, because, , you know, if you're an ITIL person, you go to ITIL 00:24:24.788 --> 00:24:29.048 certification classes, our definitions are a little different than ITIL. 00:24:29.918 --> 00:24:33.188 If you're an architect, our definitions are a little different from TOGAF or 00:24:33.188 --> 00:24:34.298 any of the architecture frameworks. 00:24:34.328 --> 00:24:37.558 So we've had to come up with something that works for everybody. 00:24:37.698 --> 00:24:38.918 And so it is a bit of a unique. 00:24:39.063 --> 00:24:39.393 Thing. 00:24:39.833 --> 00:24:43.503 So you got to look at our definitions and the products that use and 00:24:43.503 --> 00:24:47.433 create these things so that you understand how they're used. 00:24:47.433 --> 00:24:49.563 So that's one is just the service itself. 00:24:49.896 --> 00:24:50.316 CJ: Okay. 00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:53.089 Mark: the second one is, is really the application because 00:24:53.089 --> 00:24:54.659 we have three applications too. 00:24:54.669 --> 00:24:58.951 There's three core services types, three core applications And application 00:24:58.951 --> 00:25:03.081 services is both it's where they come together So it's kind of interesting 00:25:03.081 --> 00:25:06.331 that way we have business apps We have application services and then we have 00:25:06.331 --> 00:25:11.081 just regular apps which are deployed on individual Computers, really. 00:25:11.201 --> 00:25:16.491 so it's just really understanding the entity, how it's used, where it goes when 00:25:16.501 --> 00:25:22.261 you're adopting the platform or moving data over from your own data model to 00:25:22.271 --> 00:25:24.581 what we, what we now provide as guidance. 00:25:25.008 --> 00:25:26.978 But those are the two areas that are probably the hardest. 00:25:27.068 --> 00:25:30.038 , now the good news, this is where it becomes quite interesting. 00:25:30.048 --> 00:25:33.698 There are a lot of product features built over the last two and a half years, three 00:25:33.698 --> 00:25:39.388 years now, which Use the Csdm, they, create the data in the way we prescribe. 00:25:39.898 --> 00:25:43.234 So there's one product in particular that most people aren't even 00:25:43.234 --> 00:25:44.794 aware called Service Builder. 00:25:45.084 --> 00:25:50.294 So the question about what service to use is explained right there in plain 00:25:50.294 --> 00:25:52.094 text in Service builder, if you used it. 00:25:52.734 --> 00:25:56.364 But if you go to the table structure, you'll scratch your head. 00:25:56.364 --> 00:25:58.944 What are of 43 different tables should I use? 00:25:58.944 --> 00:25:59.214 You know? 00:25:59.499 --> 00:25:59.929 CJ: Yeah. 00:25:59.929 --> 00:26:04.084 So that's actually a good, segue to talk a little bit about, The difference is 00:26:04.084 --> 00:26:07.764 between some of us old guys, like, , me and to do great been around for a while. 00:26:07.984 --> 00:26:10.148 And then some of the newer folks who are , just getting involved 00:26:10.148 --> 00:26:13.518 in service now, And, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about the 00:26:13.518 --> 00:26:14.798 difference in the alphabet, right? 00:26:14.798 --> 00:26:17.508 I think I started towards the end of Berlin, you know, and 00:26:17.508 --> 00:26:18.728 now we're on Washington, D. 00:26:18.728 --> 00:26:18.958 C. 00:26:19.208 --> 00:26:20.958 That's, that's a lot of letters in between there. 00:26:21.248 --> 00:26:22.498 A lot of, right. 00:26:22.768 --> 00:26:26.018 And a lot of the stuff though, that, you know, I learned how to 00:26:26.018 --> 00:26:31.834 do back in BCD land, it's become such muscle memory, even in W land. 00:26:31.834 --> 00:26:35.504 I'm still using the, that, um, you know, those patterns, even though 00:26:35.504 --> 00:26:37.304 there might be something better now. 00:26:37.423 --> 00:26:41.529 that gives additional context and probably, guides me in a way that saves 00:26:41.529 --> 00:26:45.549 me time and effort and keeps me on the right track versus, having to figure 00:26:45.549 --> 00:26:47.176 it out, like we did in the old days. 00:26:47.176 --> 00:26:51.036 And I know one of those things is gen AI, but there's a lot of these other tools, 00:26:51.036 --> 00:26:53.296 like you said, service creator, , that. 00:26:53.478 --> 00:26:55.768 I don't think I've integrated into my tool set yet. 00:26:56.113 --> 00:26:57.353 Mark: Yeah, service builder, by the 00:26:57.538 --> 00:26:58.158 CJ: There was a builder. 00:26:58.158 --> 00:26:58.588 Sorry. 00:26:58.638 --> 00:26:58.908 Yeah. 00:26:59.223 --> 00:27:00.133 Mark: But that's the thing. 00:27:00.133 --> 00:27:02.223 I mean, we are moving so quickly. 00:27:02.913 --> 00:27:04.073 It's hard for me to keep up. 00:27:04.103 --> 00:27:08.583 I work for the company and we come out with new stuff so rapidly every quarter. 00:27:08.583 --> 00:27:11.383 Now we're no longer, you know, a family release. 00:27:11.423 --> 00:27:13.343 No, no, there's so much stuff in the store. 00:27:13.343 --> 00:27:14.153 It's incredible. 00:27:14.773 --> 00:27:15.313 Um, 00:27:15.333 --> 00:27:16.283 Duke: stop me from ranting. 00:27:19.293 --> 00:27:19.653 Mark: so 00:27:20.253 --> 00:27:23.473 Duke: This is why we like, okay, low key mark. 00:27:23.483 --> 00:27:25.923 This is why we'd love to have you like almost as a regular 00:27:25.923 --> 00:27:27.163 appearance on the show. 00:27:27.653 --> 00:27:28.333 It is. 00:27:28.743 --> 00:27:32.013 I mean, it's one thing for you guys to be like, whew, this is moving fast, but. 00:27:32.183 --> 00:27:36.413 I need you to think about the customer experience and even the ServiceNow 00:27:36.463 --> 00:27:39.283 expert experience, freelance partner, , whatever the case may be, 00:27:39.283 --> 00:27:48.183 like, not only do we look for, like the new stuff is in the same pile as 00:27:48.733 --> 00:27:49.253 Mark: all the old 00:27:49.363 --> 00:27:50.903 Duke: years of everything else. 00:27:50.903 --> 00:27:53.543 And so like, I frequently go and try and like, I'm trying to 00:27:53.543 --> 00:27:56.763 find information on SPMs, , they have a new resource record type. 00:27:57.148 --> 00:27:58.028 For resource management. 00:27:58.058 --> 00:27:58.368 Right. 00:27:58.738 --> 00:28:00.778 And how do I find out more about this? 00:28:00.808 --> 00:28:03.148 And it's just type into Google resource management. 00:28:03.148 --> 00:28:04.138 It's just forget about it. 00:28:04.138 --> 00:28:05.138 You can't find anything. 00:28:05.438 --> 00:28:11.738 And so the cure for that is just a lot more spotlight and a lot more 00:28:11.748 --> 00:28:13.008 interaction with the community. 00:28:13.008 --> 00:28:17.368 And I wish there was even like, some kind of chronological thing. 00:28:17.408 --> 00:28:17.928 You know what I mean? 00:28:17.928 --> 00:28:24.108 Something that just showed, the CSDM and let me slide from 2024 to 2023 and 00:28:24.108 --> 00:28:30.738 kind of like, at least I can go to 2024 and see just the stuff for that year. 00:28:31.128 --> 00:28:32.874 Mark: Yeah, I mean, it is hard. 00:28:32.874 --> 00:28:37.204 I mean, I can't imagine how it is being in your shoes where you're, you know, most 00:28:37.204 --> 00:28:40.834 of your day is probably getting the job done for some customers, and not learning 00:28:40.834 --> 00:28:43.224 about or understanding what's coming next. 00:28:43.586 --> 00:28:46.786 . The volume of information and change is just incredible. 00:28:46.846 --> 00:28:49.039 And we hear about it as product managers. 00:28:49.089 --> 00:28:50.759 I mean, our customers complain about it. 00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:54.756 We're coming out too fast for them to consume the products updates, right? 00:28:54.776 --> 00:28:55.506 All the changes. 00:28:55.643 --> 00:28:59.546 so how do we communicate this and how do we, keep improving things 00:28:59.546 --> 00:29:02.923 while at the same time making sure that you're on the, same journey? 00:29:03.019 --> 00:29:04.199 that's not an easy thing to do. 00:29:04.456 --> 00:29:05.416 there's no easy answer. 00:29:05.563 --> 00:29:07.803 I could tell you what I've done, And the reason maybe you're 00:29:07.803 --> 00:29:10.963 calling me is I have a principle. 00:29:10.993 --> 00:29:13.703 If I have to answer the same question more than three times, 00:29:13.703 --> 00:29:15.443 I record it and I publish it. 00:29:16.668 --> 00:29:18.988 I have a, it's like, okay. 00:29:18.988 --> 00:29:20.868 So over the last three years, okay. 00:29:20.868 --> 00:29:23.998 Four years almost, I've started to just record things. 00:29:24.008 --> 00:29:26.468 Some stuff is small, some stuff is big. 00:29:26.998 --> 00:29:29.978 And sometimes I'll bring on a guest, like you're doing with me. 00:29:29.978 --> 00:29:33.134 And I'll, talk about something that I don't quite understand and ask a bunch 00:29:33.134 --> 00:29:36.954 of questions like you are, and I'll record it and I'll just put it out there. 00:29:36.964 --> 00:29:40.094 And that's kind of done a lot of good to get the, uh, the 00:29:40.094 --> 00:29:41.714 information out on various topics. 00:29:41.986 --> 00:29:45.176 and just to give you some metrics the the videos that me and my team 00:29:45.186 --> 00:29:50.236 not just me right but my whole team There's over there's 600 000 views 00:29:50.236 --> 00:29:52.376 of these videos now on our community. 00:29:52.483 --> 00:29:57.093 youtube, so it's crazy It's it's really people love this stuff and uh, 00:29:57.548 --> 00:30:00.498 I get fan bombed Now it's like mark. 00:30:00.498 --> 00:30:01.188 I know your voice. 00:30:01.188 --> 00:30:03.808 I've never met you, but I know your voice like okay 00:30:05.116 --> 00:30:06.556 CJ: that's okay. 00:30:06.556 --> 00:30:10.702 So co hosting podcast, right. 00:30:10.722 --> 00:30:14.232 And, you know, and having folks listen to it and then showing up at 00:30:14.232 --> 00:30:24.362 somewhere like knowledge and then folks like CJ and, and Right, but, 00:30:24.567 --> 00:30:25.347 Mark: Well, that's the problem. 00:30:25.347 --> 00:30:26.757 I have that every year too. 00:30:26.757 --> 00:30:29.027 I like i'll be walking around and somebody's saying mark and 00:30:29.557 --> 00:30:31.380 I can't get to my destination. 00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:34.500 I just keep getting you know Lambasted so 00:30:34.865 --> 00:30:36.035 CJ: it's incredibly cool, right? 00:30:36.035 --> 00:30:36.575 Like, I love it. 00:30:36.575 --> 00:30:37.775 I love meeting people. 00:30:37.775 --> 00:30:40.282 I the reason I go to knowledge is for the people, honestly, right? 00:30:40.582 --> 00:30:41.912 And it's just awesome. 00:30:42.102 --> 00:30:46.292 But it's it's funny, the, asymmetrical relationship that it forms with 00:30:46.507 --> 00:30:47.477 Mark: I know I 00:30:47.517 --> 00:30:47.837 CJ: Right? 00:30:47.857 --> 00:30:50.077 Like they feel like they know you because they've listened to you 00:30:50.077 --> 00:30:52.247 every week for like a year, right? 00:30:52.287 --> 00:30:58.517 And you know, you've never seen them before, right? 00:30:58.697 --> 00:31:04.757 Mark: I am grateful that I was able to help them That whatever I did in that 00:31:04.777 --> 00:31:09.134 few minutes of recording brought some answers to them where they didn't have 00:31:09.144 --> 00:31:13.364 before and i'm like well You As long as it's working, I'll keep doing it. 00:31:13.650 --> 00:31:14.410 CJ: Absolutely. 00:31:14.540 --> 00:31:15.300 Absolutely. 00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:15.780 You know, 00:31:15.830 --> 00:31:16.880 Mark: No, but I love it. 00:31:16.890 --> 00:31:17.910 I love helping people. 00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:19.760 My biggest challenge is saying no. 00:31:20.390 --> 00:31:23.880 So when somebody comes to me with a question, I try to get to an answer. 00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:26.300 Even if it's not me, it's pointing them in the right direction. 00:31:26.537 --> 00:31:29.087 and I'll be, I know you've been on the platform for a long time. 00:31:29.130 --> 00:31:31.190 I stopped developing code years ago. 00:31:31.190 --> 00:31:35.720 I mean, I used to do C and Microsoft foundation classes way back in the day. 00:31:36.250 --> 00:31:38.320 But, , I know we're kind of low code, no code, but. 00:31:38.830 --> 00:31:42.080 , I try to stay out of that and just try to stick with the problems and 00:31:42.080 --> 00:31:44.450 trying to answer problems and direct people to where they need to go. 00:31:44.667 --> 00:31:46.737 Duke: so we got 35 minutes of record. 00:31:46.737 --> 00:31:49.197 So, at this point, I'll ask you, Mark, give you the last word. 00:31:49.767 --> 00:31:54.587 Is there one or two things you wish people would know about CSDM? 00:31:54.938 --> 00:32:01.866 You 00:32:01.926 --> 00:32:02.426 Mark: by that? 00:32:02.456 --> 00:32:08.120 Well, we came out with CSDM as a compromise, an agreed upon model 00:32:08.150 --> 00:32:10.990 among very different disciplines. 00:32:11.040 --> 00:32:13.230 My background is architecture and development. 00:32:13.280 --> 00:32:14.380 , my colleagues were not. 00:32:14.570 --> 00:32:16.070 That's not their background. 00:32:16.070 --> 00:32:18.630 They were infrastructure managers and service managers. 00:32:19.130 --> 00:32:23.533 So, if you study CSDM and you can map it to your world, 00:32:23.933 --> 00:32:25.603 it'll mean a lot more to you. 00:32:25.633 --> 00:32:30.840 And it's represented, at least for us, a way to put everybody 00:32:30.890 --> 00:32:32.800 involved on the same picture. 00:32:33.360 --> 00:32:36.440 Because previous to CSDM, that just didn't exist. 00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:38.290 So, figure out where you sit. 00:32:38.310 --> 00:32:39.660 You don't need to know it all. 00:32:40.055 --> 00:32:44.015 You just need to agree and understand the map where you fit and then 00:32:44.015 --> 00:32:46.665 use that as your common map when you're talking to your colleagues. 00:32:46.665 --> 00:32:47.495 that's the big thing. 00:32:48.246 --> 00:32:51.916 CJ: and I know, , 35 minutes, but I just want, Mark, one last thing. 00:32:51.956 --> 00:32:54.916 is there anything at knowledge that's going on with the CSDM that you 00:32:55.051 --> 00:32:56.101 Mark: Oh, yes. 00:32:57.666 --> 00:32:58.686 Duke: only get to pick five. 00:32:59.936 --> 00:33:04.160 Mark: Yeah, well, there's gonna be some big announcements around 00:33:04.810 --> 00:33:06.930 LLM, as you probably can guess. 00:33:07.080 --> 00:33:08.340 You're probably seeing hints of that. 00:33:08.590 --> 00:33:11.870 the big thing for us is announcing version 5 and when that's 00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:13.460 coming out and what's included. 00:33:13.740 --> 00:33:16.410 we've been hinting on that as well in a couple different venues. 00:33:17.140 --> 00:33:18.533 But, think about this. 00:33:19.163 --> 00:33:22.263 An LLM is only as good as the data that goes into it. 00:33:22.671 --> 00:33:23.121 CJ: That's true. 00:33:23.181 --> 00:33:23.441 Yep. 00:33:23.648 --> 00:33:26.698 Mark: so that makes you think how important is CSTM? 00:33:26.748 --> 00:33:29.178 How important is the CMDB to get it right? 00:33:29.618 --> 00:33:34.128 To be trusting it, entirely to do all this other LLM stuff you're doing. 00:33:34.185 --> 00:33:37.601 so your house is only as good as the foundation and. 00:33:38.366 --> 00:33:39.776 This data is the foundation. 00:33:39.777 --> 00:33:40.721 Yes. 00:33:40.721 --> 00:33:41.666 Yes. 00:33:41.696 --> 00:33:43.566 Duke: we're going to have Mark send us some of the links 00:33:43.586 --> 00:33:44.566 that he was talking about. 00:33:44.586 --> 00:33:46.346 We'll get them in the description below for you. 00:33:46.526 --> 00:33:50.666 Otherwise, check out ServiceNow's, YouTube channel and search for CSDM. 00:33:50.996 --> 00:33:52.756 Mark, thank you so much for coming to the show. 00:33:52.786 --> 00:33:55.606 I really hope we can make this a regular thing, so that we can really 00:33:55.606 --> 00:33:59.276 get CSDM to just be that, that one thing everybody does and does it 00:33:59.276 --> 00:34:00.806 super well because they understand it. 00:34:02.806 --> 00:34:04.136 Mark: Understand it from your point of view. 00:34:04.146 --> 00:34:07.276 You don't have to you know, a lot of folks they're not architects They're not going 00:34:07.276 --> 00:34:10.603 to understand everything in there But You're a slice of the world know where 00:34:10.603 --> 00:34:14.063 you fit where you sit and how everybody else relates and then you're good to go 00:34:14.383 --> 00:34:14.793 Duke: Awesome. 00:34:14.813 --> 00:34:16.043 Thanks for so much for coming, Mark. 00:34:16.043 --> 00:34:17.733 And, uh, thanks everybody for listening. 00:34:17.733 --> 00:34:18.523 We'll see you on the next one. 00:34:18.967 --> 00:34:19.567 Mark: My pleasure