Arvid Kahl: Welcome to The Bootstrapped Founder, episode
250. Wow. Today, I'm talking to Amanda Goetz: marketer, creator,
educator and all round inspiring person to be around. Amanda
shares her insights about the importance of rest and how the
hustle culture around us has been eroding a more nuanced and
balanced approach to building a legacy. We chat about monetizing
the creator economy, what it means to find a niche and then
stand out in it. And if she's writing a book or not, maybe. A
quick shout out to our sponsor, acquire.com. More on that later.
Now, here's Amanda.
Amanda, thanks for being on the show. You very recently quit
your job to become a full time creator. How did you know that
that was the right time to make that move?
Amanda Goetz: Yeah, so about a year ago, I sold my startup,
which I had been doing for a few years. And that was started
during the pandemic, which was very much like survival mode
fight or flight. I was, you know, homeschooling three kids,
Arvid Kahl: Right
going through a divorce and started my startup. So, you
Amanda Goetz: And so I'm a cautionary tale, but I feel like
know, there was a lot going on at the time. And I sold my
company and really out of and the sale was not like this
crazy, lucrative sale, like it was truly like the right move
for the company, the right move for me. And I needed stability.
And that's what I was looking for. So I took the first real
job opportunity that came across my plate. And it was an amazing
opportunity to just kind of sit back and do some work. But like,
there wasn't a lot of growth opportunity. It was just a VP of
marketing position. It was great. And I did that for eight
months, but three months in, I said to my therapist, it's like,
I forgot how I can't work for other people. And I also forgot
how I can't work for large companies because I am used to,
like execution and shipping something and learning and
moving like I've been a founder now twice. And all of the like
red tape and politics. Like just I don't mesh well with it. And
so that kick started this conversation of what are my
values for this next season of life. And I realized autonomy
and financial freedom were big ones, but also connecting with
people. And I have a lot of things that I love talking
about. And I want to connect with people on a deeper level.
And so that started to lead into, well, what does it look
I have enough proof of concepts. Maybe some little bit of product
like to be a content creator? Now I'll be the first to say
like Justin Walsh just tweeted this. And he was like, now you
market fit given my audience, but I've never monetize my
audience. I've never actually figured out how to so there's
tell me. He's like don't quit your job unless you have like
gonna be a lot of learning here. But we're gonna see what
all your revenue streams lined up.
happens.
Arvid Kahl: Well, I'm excited to watch the journey because you're
sharing it in public too, which is kind of part of the creator
life, right? You're gonna have to build your creator brand in
public. And you're doing this pretty well. Interesting that
you haven't thought about monetization before or at least
not, you know, like enough to warrant having validation there.
So what exactly did you have in mind, in terms of like, what
kind of content to create if monetization wasn't a goal?
Like, what did you actually want to do? Who did you want to help?
Amanda Goetz: So it's interesting, everybody that I
talked to over the last couple of years, when I told them, you
know, I want to start a newsletter. I want to write
about kind of being the antidote to hustle culture because that's
really what I believe in. I believe that, I mean, look, I'll
share it very transparently. Part of the reason that led to
my divorce is my partner, he's a very ambitious person. But that
was his priority. And I was home with the kids. And it was very
imbalanced. And I think that, you know, he would probably say
the same thing that the divorce forced him to realize like, he
was imbalanced and he's an amazing dad and the kids now
have their dad 50% of the time and he's very present with them.
And I just think that so many people wait until this wake up
call happens to rebalance and I just really feel passionately
about that. So that's what I want to talk about. What's
everybody kept telling me is like, when you go broad that's
so hard to make money. You need to stay in your lane, your
niche, where you've built your audience, which I built my
audience as being a CMO and building brands and marketing.
So as I step into this creator world, I'm balancing those two
things, what I'm passionate about and what my expertise is
in. And that's where I'm playing and figuring out is, is it an
and not an or. And I think that I'm starting to tiptoe into how
to make that work.
Arvid Kahl: How stay in your lane conversation, that's been
something that I've experienced a couple times before. And it
always sucks, right? When people tell you to not move into
another field. Like did you kind of, I can only tell you from my
own experience here, I guess. But I had to give myself
permission to become a creator. How was it for you?
Amanda Goetz: Yes, yes. Full, yes. The idea, two things I've
had to work through: taking up space and believing you deserve
that space. And this is now something that I write about. I
call it cringe valley, where you are in this valley where you
feel just like, oh, this is yucky. I'm talking about myself.
This just feels gross. And then slowly, you start to like, climb
out of this valley and realize, like, oh, by me saying this
thing connected to this person and gave them the motivation or
the permission themselves to do this thing. And so you slowly
climb out of that. That's number one. And then the second thing
that I'm still working through, which is the whole, taking
people's money for this thing and really like, I've been
working with this guy who works with a lot of content creators.
And he said to me, he's like, do you believe what you say is
valuable? I'm like, of course, like, that's why I do it. I
think, you know, people find value in it. He's like, then why
don't you believe that in like your core that it has value?
Like, monetarily, you put emotional value on it, but not
monetary value. And so I think that as a creator, you have to
kind of do more of that internal work that gets you prepared to
do that, like external stuff.
Arvid Kahl: So anything that you can share with me, because I
struggle with that too, finding value in the work that I do. I
know it's valuable, kind of, but I don't want to put a number on
it. Like, how did you work that through internally?
Amanda Goetz: One is just watching other people charge for
things that you know you have so much more experience and value
and it's truly just saying like, someone is going if they're
looking for this, they're going to go to someone. Do you believe
that you can solve their problem uniquely or more empathetically
or just like adding more value? And if you do, you're doing them
a service because their goal, if they are looking for how to
build a personal brand or how to start a newsletter, whatever it
is, they're gonna go find it. Someone's going to deliver it to
them, why not you? And that's the part that's like, oh, yeah,
why can't that be me? And kind of giving yourself that space to
kind of step into it and expand and say, I deserve. I have this
experience. I've been doing this for now 20 years, like I can
teach something to somebody that's looking for it. So I
think it's that whole like push versus pull. Like I feel icky
when I'm like, just like pushing something to people. But if
somebody's looking for the thing I'm providing, then I'm meeting
their need, which is just a different reframe for me.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah. So the demand kind of mindset, I think, like
Justin Jackson talked about, like surfing the wave, existing
demand, right? Like, if there's something out there. If people
want it and you have it, why don't you give it to them? And
why don't you give it to them in a compensatory way? That's an
interesting way to think about this. And I think the problem
with my experience and I think with a lot of other creators or
people who are kind of more aspirational creators, is that
they just think that what they know is not enough, right? That
there's this kind of everybody already knows that. How do you
find that? Because people have been talking a lot about taking
breaks and productivity being a balanced and that kind of stuff.
But I know you have a unique perspective. But how do you know
that you have a unique perspective?
Amanda Goetz: Well, I think part of it is also just understanding
that it's 2023. And we've been now on social media, like are
there that many unique perspectives? And that's
honestly like, maybe this is a contrarian take but like, I have
1000 books around my house. It's all just a different flavor of
the same meal and figuring out what your flavoring is and
saying I can serve the same meal. It's just going to have a
different flavor. What is that flavor? Your flavor might be,
you have a different experience set, you have a different
personality set, you have a different life scenario, like
those can all be your seasonings to your meal. But it might still
be the same chicken that everybody's serving. So I think
getting past the fact that you have to cook like a steak and
serve it to everybody when everybody's serving chicken.
Arvid Kahl: That's a really, really great way of expressing
this, like, there's nothing wrong with being an alternative
to something that already exists. Because there are people
out there that are unhappy with the thing as it exists right
now. Right? Like that's what I think like Pieter Levels had
this wonderful tweet recently, where he had like 20 books, that
all kind of looked the same, but they were all like productivity
books and they all kind of had the same message. But each one
of these books is the perfect version of that thought for
somebody in that audience, right?
Amanda Goetz: Like, who I will speak to about productivity will
be so different than how Matt Gray will speak to someone about
productivity. And Matt Gray may rub somebody the wrong way and
that person will gravitate towards me. And I may rub
somebody the wrong way. And they'll gravitate towards Matt.
Like, it's a very real thing where you're going to find the
people that you resonate with and it's totally okay. Like,
there's so many people talking productivity. A lot of people
could say, Amanda, you're literally talking about, it's
like, well, my unique scenario is like, I'm a single mom. I
have three kids. I've, you know, launch two companies and I do it
all while trying to like maintain and not burnout. So I
think that that's my flavor. And that might not be for everybody.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, and it is very specific, right? The overlapping
Venn diagram of all the things that you are, there's like five
different things overlapping in one person, that's you. Like, I
don't know anybody like you who is talking about the things that
you talk about, right? And so that makes you like, just stand
out by design by overlapping all these different parts of your
identity, which is why I find it so interesting that people want
you against going broad. You're not, like you are still
specific, right?
Amanda Goetz: Yeah. It's interesting because there's this
like productivity angle, but then there's the CMO marketing
angle. And then let's just like let's get into maybe a little
bit of semantics here with like newsletters. Finding a sponsor
who wants to talk to marketers is so much easier than saying,
we have a bunch of people who are kind of type a high
performing people that are looking to not burn out, like,
it's just a little harder to find that like one to one with a
sponsorship. Whereas like B2B, there is a lot of money in the
space. There's a lot of SaaS companies trying to get in front
of marketers, so it's an easier sell. So I do agree with
everyone that said that to me, they said the fastest path to
monetization will be for you to stay in a marketing niche. But
at some point, your niche caps out where you watch people who
they've been in a niche for so long and they're trying to like
add now a new vertical to their offerings. So it's just a matter
of like, which positioning you want to take and your entry
point. Now, like I said, I think I'm going to, as I step into
this world, I've got the newsletter. It's my like path,
it gives me so much energy to write every week. I love it. But
I'm going to have to also figure out, like, my monetization
structure around marketing and so that's going to be probably
Arvid Kahl: Well, yeah, as a creator, you will very quickly
Amanda Goetz: Yes. So yes, I will share some news but yes, so
the "and".
have to figure that out to become profitable with that, but
that's the fun part I feel. Like I honestly, my journey with the
blog and the newsletter, the podcast and whatever has been
just trying out different things, seeing which ones work.
And writing has been always enjoyable writing books, like is
that something in your future to actually, like, turn your
regular cadence of writing into something more tangible that can
be monetized? Is that a plan? Is it somewhere in there?
you heard it here first that that is definitely something in
the works, learning the book process. Holy moly! Like it's
definitely always been a bucket list thing. I love to write. I
love to like story tell. But spoiler alert, you're not doing
that for money. Like
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, no
Amanda Goetz: No, this is truly like a passion led thing that
you believe you want. You have a unique thing aspect is to tell
but yeah, I was in New York last week. I submitted a proposal
about a month ago and met with three literary agents and I'm
doing that whole process right now.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that's fun. I'm in the proposal stage for my
third one right now, like I'm working
Amanda Goetz: We need to chat
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, I think you need to
Amanda Goetz: What's your biggest piece of advice as I
head into, so I did the like mini proposal to get an agent,
got an agent secured, love my agent. And then now head into
for anyone that doesn't know, it's like, they told me like a
four to six month proposal process
Arvid Kahl: So bad
Amanda Goetz: That you gotta get this thing buttoned up to sell
to a publisher. So what advice do you have about that, like
proposal process?
Arvid Kahl: Well, it's also the very first time that I'm in that
process even though I've already written two books. The first two
that I wrote was self published. So I skipped all of this. So my
advice is, I'm not going to give you any advice because I'm not
going to tell you
Amanda Goetz: I'm going to be like, wait, what has happened to
me?
Arvid Kahl: Maybe the piece of advice that I can kind of, you
know, like, just have ricochet off me from the people that I
talked to, who've done this a couple of times in the past, is
just be extremely patient and don't expect this to go, like
fast or at all, right? This is a multi year process. The writing
part comes at a super late stage, which is the exact
opposite of my experience from writing the other two books
because I wrote them first. And then it was like, I have books
now. I should sell them. Then I sold them, right? That's how it
worked for me. So it's completely different now.
Amanda Goetz: I'm learning so much about this whole process,
like, I'm a marketer. So I think about the hook first, how I
would take it to market, what's the like angle? And they were
like, oh, no, you'll write the title last. And I was like, oh,
okay. Like, it's just a whole different ballgame for sure. But
okay, we'll keep sharing our tips.
Arvid Kahl: Let's just keep roasting the process that is so
weird.
Amanda Goetz: So weird
Arvid Kahl: The weirdest part in all of this to me has been, how
almost analytical they are looking into the prospects of a
book, like what does it compare to? What sold a lot? Can you
write a book just like this? I guess it's such a weird, I mean,
it's also kind of a demand forward thinking, right? Like,
they think, okay, this is selling. We need to write
something that works like this. In many ways, that's actually
quite smart compared to, I have this big book idea, let me write
it. But it's very different.
Amanda Goetz: I went in thinking, you know, I wanted to
write a book for men and women. Then they get into the stats and
they're, like, 80% of women or 80% of buyers of this category
are women. And I'm like, but yeah, but my audience is pretty
balanced. And I'm like, well, I don't want to just to women.
They're like, it's going to sell better. And like, it's going to
have a better hook and an angle and easier for publishers to
like, fit it in. So it's really fascinating the business side of
books and how the way I've had to like frame it in my mind is
that I'm going to show up with clay and then agent, publisher,
editor, like, they will shape it into what it's going to become.
Arvid Kahl: Which for a creator feels like giving up all your
agency to somebody else, right?
Amanda Goetz: It's really interesting, like, we'll have to
do like, check in like a part two of podcast when we get
because the other like analogy that I keep feeling is like
going to VCs, like going to a publisher, it's very much like,
you have to know what they care about, know what they are, like
their thesis is and what's going to sell. And then there's this
like hype thing. And I did this with the agents too, where I got
contracts from the first two agents or no, I got contracts
from the second two. I met with three. So two and three gave me
contracts. One was still like, I need to like I mean, just
understand the angle a little bit more. And then that person
was following along on Instagram and saw like all I was like
going to a lot of meetings. And then they followed up and then
wanted to give a contract. And I was like this is just like VCs,
like, it's just hype and momentum and they don't want to
miss something. So it's all a game.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah. And that is something that and that's kind
of the topic I want to pivot this conversation to because
it's really important to me. It's kind of interfering with
authenticity, right? Like the fact that you have to play that
game to be able to get that contract to land, well, measly
funds that you will get paid in advance and then hopefully
you'll sell enough to even win make that work. But yeah, but
besides the monetary hilarity of selling your first book, it
feels like you have to give up a lot of your agency as a creator,
but also of your like, just authentic behavior to be able to
play that game with these people. And that's something
that I battle with a lot. Like in that particular activity of
trying to write a book with a big publisher, I could easily
self publish my third book. I know that. I could have written
it already. But over the last couple of months, what I've been
doing is writing a prospect with somebody who helps me write
prospects so that then I can eventually write a sample
chapter so that then I can eventually write the book, maybe
Amanda Goetz: What's driving that for you, since you've done
it twice? So for me, I'll share my reason that I went to through
an agent is it was truly imposter syndrome. And I needed
someone else to validate that I could do this.
Arvid Kahl: Interesting
Amanda Goetz: That's where it came from. You've done it
before, what's driving that?
Arvid Kahl: It's always impostor syndrome as well. That's always
an undercurrent to everything I do. But in this case, it was
really the curiosity of doing it in a different way. I just
wanted to, maybe that's the most selfish thing in everything I've
done. But I wanted to see my book at an airport somewhere.
That's, you know
Amanda Goetz: All driven by ego.
Arvid Kahl: But it's like, I knew that self publishing. I
would never be able to get it there unless I just take one
with me and put it into the store at the airport
Amanda Goetz: Not for each other
Arvid Kahl: Doing it for the gram and for my friends. But
it's really that's one of the reasons I wanted to give this
more reach because I feel like I want to write about building in
public. That's the topic of what I'm thinking about. And I want
this to be a thing that is not just in our niche. I want to go
abroad in the sense of I want to teach entrepreneurs and creators
of all kinds, not just indie hackers, not just people from my
little software enabled startup world, but anybody who has
something to do. I want to allow them to do it with other people
and in public, like step by step.
Amanda Goetz: I love that.
Arvid Kahl: So the idea is for that topic in particular. I
wanted it to have more reach. And I wanted to get my book in
airports.
Amanda Goetz: Yep. Yeah, it's funny because so when I was at
the knot, they had this like, external coaching agency come in
and they made us do this self assessment and was this like,
all day thing. And then the next day, they came back with your
results. And it was a personal needs, like what do you need to
feel motivated at work? And there were only two of us that
had attention as like the biggest one. And I felt so much
shame. I was like, oh my God! That seems so icky. And the
person helped reframe it because they were like, this is just
information about how your internal wiring is composed to
motivate you. And she was like, if you go to a workout class,
when they say like, keep it up. Does that like keep you go? And
I'm like, yes. Like when someone in a meeting is like, well,
Amanda had this idea, I light up. You know, every part of me
is like, yeah, I did. I did and I'll make 18 more like what do
you need me to do? So it's not a bad thing. And I think there's a
lot of shame in like, saying, like, yeah, I'd love to see my
book in Barnes and Noble. Like I'm doing it because I want to
see my daughters in Barnes and Noble with my like, going and
finding my book.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah
Amanda Goetz: It was really cute when I signed the contract with
the agent. I had my my oldest, like, click send and I was like,
write a book. But yeah, like there's nothing wrong with
saying that.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, I think attention is just the flipside
of validation too, right? Like you want validation because that
is something we all seek in all kinds of things in your personal
lives, professional lives and all that. And I don't think
there's anything wrong with this because honestly, I think it's
highly motivational to just be consistent. I remember the first
day I had my first subscriber on my newsletter and I knew I guess
I'm gonna do this forever now because this person wants to
read my stuff, right?
Amanda Goetz: It takes one email and I say this to everybody that
emails me. I'm like this email keeps me going because it does
like the fact that they read something and took the moment to
like reply and say, I'm going to incorporate this but this meant
so much, this was so timely. That's all I need to keep going.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, I've seen your share several of these over the
last couple of weeks on Twitter as well, which is really cool to
see. I'm so happy like I'm happy this is happening for you like
that you are getting the attention you very much deserved
with the newsletter. And that what you talk about in the
newsletter is also not just inspirational, but actually life
changing for people that literally flips the switch for
allowing them to make significant changes. And I think
what you've been talking about recently, taking breaks in
particular is a topic that I have been just yelling at people
with like just over the last couple years, having been
through burnout multiple times. And having suffered a lot at the
hands of my own mental health, you know, which and taking
breaks such an important thing. I would love to hear your
perspective on, are we taking enough breaks? Should be maybe
taking more? Are we doing it right? Maybe that's the more
interesting question.
Amanda Goetz: So I think let's talk about that last piece.
Like, when people burn out, they think, well, I just need to
sleep more. And I wrote about this where I was really burnt
out when I had my three kids. And I was, you know, working
full time. I had a team of 50 people. And so I just was, like,
I just need to go to bed earlier. 8:30 turned into 8pm.
And I just still never could catch up. So that sparked the
like, well, what do I need to do here? And so I wrote about
there's lots of different forms of rest. There's physical rest,
there's mental rest, there's emotional rest, there's social
rest, there's creative rest, there's lots of different types
of rest. And if we don't get all of those in a different aspect
and in different quantities, you're not fully rested. And so
I think it's important to figure out what that looks like for you
in both the micro and the macro parts of your life. And so I
always start at the macro level. I say, okay, this year, I need
to take one solo trip. That is always like, my first go to
because solo trips give me a lot of different forms of rest,
creative rest, emotional rest. I'll put my phone away. There's
a lot there. But then in the micro, like, how do you create
space for social and in your week. And in social rest, people
are like, well, that's just getting away from people. It's
like, no, it's actually means the opposite. It means going and
being around somebody that fills you up and fills your cup and
you leave feeling like we all know. When you walk away from a
conversation, you either feel like pumped or depleted. And
social rest is about putting boundaries on the latter and
spending time with the former. So I don't think it's like self
care. And all this stuff has become these like buzzy hot
words. But for me, it's really about are you hitting these
different aspects that you probably don't realize you need?
Arvid Kahl: I have many questions now because all of
these things raised a couple of just memories from my own
experience. But do you think it's different between people
who are like highly introverted versus the more extroverted
type?
Amanda Goetz: I think that the same seven still apply. How you
get them might change, right? It's just like any objective.
You make an objective and measure that objective with a
key result like an OKR. But then you can come up with 30
different tactics to achieve that. And so depending on your
personality, like, let's talk creative rest, for example.
Creative rest is really centered around what is allowing you to
stop doing the job you get paid for to perform and you're doing
something else. To an extrovert, that might mean going to take a
pottery class or, you know, going to an art gallery and
exploring and taking a tour of something. To an introvert, that
might mean a puzzle or doing a Lego set. But it's still saying
no to the thing that you have to do and allowing space for
something. And there's a really interesting fact that if you
struggle to solve a problem, like if you're stuck on
something, solving a different problem will unlock different
parts of your brain that allows you to then go back and think of
this in a different way. And so that's what creative rest is, is
like, I'm a big Lego girl, like I love Lego set. And for me,
like, I have one going almost all the time because that is
like you need both of your hands. You need your brain. If
you miss a step, you're fucked. Like you need to, like be
focused. So I think there's lots of ways to achieve the types of
rest.
Arvid Kahl: I like that perspective. It does remind me
of Julia Cameron's, Artist's Way and the kind of artists state
that she talks about in there, which I've tried many, many
times in many different ways. And I think the most enjoyable
ones has always been going to bookstores and just browsing
back in the day when we could still go outside without fear of
death. That was the good old days. You know, that is my way
of doing this. I mean, I'm a miniature painter, so I'm pretty
close to the Lego world in terms of just like tiny fiddly things.
Amanda Goetz: Oh, yeah
Arvid Kahl: Craft and stuff, you should see like the space behind
this studio here is just all crafting gear. So
Amanda Goetz: Oh! That's fun!
Arvid Kahl: I can go there and just, you know, dive into not
working, like within four seconds, which is why I built
the studio in the basement. So I have everything nearby. It's
important for me probably one of the most important kinds of rest
because I don't get much like sleep rest because my puppy
tells me when I get up every morning, you know. Your kids do
a very similar thing, maybe even more intensely because there's a
lot more responsibility there. But creative rest
Amanda Goetz: My partner has a dog and I'm pretty convinced the
dog has more work than the kids because guess what? They go to
bed, they stay in their bed and mine are old enough. But the dog
gets up. And I'm like, is it gonna pee somewhere? Is it?
Arvid Kahl: Yeah. They can't talk, right? That's the big
problem. They can't tell you what they need, can only look at
you and whine Yeah. Ah, love my puppy. But it's been a different
life honestly, like ever since we got a puppy and she's now a
year and a half old. Like my life has changed in many
different ways, right? Like dependency like this is a
pretty, pretty huge impact on just the way I can structure my
own life.
Amanda Goetz: But it's such a cool thing when your life which
was so I'll speak for myself myopically focused on myself and
my stress
Arvid Kahl: Yeah
Amanda Goetz: And now all of a sudden, my lens has shifted and
it's opened up to care about these other people's lives. And
it's so freeing because we spend so much time thinking about
like, our stuff and we get so caught up in it. And I'm like,
oh, now I have to like, deal with three other people's lives.
And they're like, what's causing them stress and it's kind of
freeing for me.
Arvid Kahl: I really enjoy that perspective, like hearing you
tell me this. And I just witnessed the exact same thing
last week. I've been spending the whole of last week in
Toronto, like where my girlfriend works. And we took
the puppy over. So it was just there in her tiny little
apartment with the puppy. And I took the whole week off pretty
much from work. The only thing I did was like put up a camera,
put up a microphone and record like 20 minutes or 29 minutes of
my podcast, which I still needed to do because consistency is
important. But everything else that week, I just didn't do much
more than that. I just hung out with the dog, waited for
Danielle to come home, like hang out with her and visit her at
work, you know, just spend time with other people and other
living beings. And it probably was one of the most refreshing
and enjoyable things that I've done in a long while, like not
thinking about myself and my Twitter following and my work
and my book for a while was really, really freeing.
Amanda Goetz: And so now like the fact that that you uncovered
that, that that was so recharging. Now you start to
think through, okay, how can I do that every quarter? How does
that look every month? What is the version of that that
actually comes into my every day? And for me, it's like,
that's the start of non negotiables. Right? That's you
become aware. So for me, like I know that being active on social
media can sometimes like cause my anxiety to go up because you
feel this, me as a creator, you feel like everyone is allowed
access to you. And when someone responds or retweets my stuff or
provides like thoughtful response, I want to respond like
I'm so grateful that they are supporting me and engaging in my
conversation. But there's also like, you're one person and
being on all the time. And so my non negotiable once I realized
that I had some breaking points. And I would take, I would do
like a social media detox. Earlier this year, I went on
this like female founder, investor trip. We went to Italy
and they took our phones and it was like, it was a lot more
intense than we thought it was going to be. It was like, she
would wake us up with a gong at five in the morning. And we had
to go to this like, kind of temple-y chapel thing. And we
had to do like two hours of morning yoga and meditation. It
was pretty intense. And so I remember being like, that was
the extreme version. But I felt so good afterwards that I needed
to, what's the day to day non negotiable. And so I do a walk
in the afternoon where I do not look at my phone and it's an
hour and a half where I'm just like, the world shuts off. And
that's kind of my little non negotiable way that I fulfill
Arvid Kahl: Oh, that's great! Yeah, walks. I have to every day
that need.
because I have this little being that needs to be walked around
and that has changed my life too, like for health reasons to
begin with. And it's nice to be able to incorporate this. I
don't get seven days a week with the puppy. I know that's just
not the normal life but having a little bit of that every day.
That's kind of how I see this in my own life. That is really
cool. That retreat phoneless very yoga and meditation, heavy
retreat, that must have been fun.
Amanda Goetz: It was crazy. We thought we were going to go and
drink wine and like
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that's Italy, right?
Amanda Goetz: And then we got there. And we're like, oh and
like after it was all very healthy eating. It was no
alcohol for the first four days. And like, at night, we would do
like, after dinner, it would be like digestive flow yoga and
then we would do sound baths. And it was crazy because when
you do a sound bath for like, over an hour, you feel like
you're on drugs, like your brain is going to different places.
And I remember being like, what is happening? But I was just so
present that you could be aware of what was coming up. And I was
like, oh, I had never done anything to that extent of like
spiritual, you know, call it whatever you want. But it was
pretty powerful.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that certainly sounds that way. Do you think
there could be like too much of that in like a normal day? Could
you overstimulate?
Amanda Goetz: I'm not a meditator. Like, everybody's
Arvid Kahl: Right, always extreme.
just like, get up in the morning and meditate. I can't do it. I
have now just accepted that active meditation for me, I
talked about like, in one of my newsletters, the idea of being
bored and what does that actually look like? And how do
you achieve that? And part of it is doing something that your
brain doesn't have to activate. So I take the same walking path
every single day. And that allows my brain like, doesn't
have to think about anything. And I've just accepted that
that's my active form of meditation. How do you get the
least amount of stimulus? So I think we're just, we live in a
very, like binary culture. I tweeted recently, like, you
know, we went from like, girl boss era to like healthy girl
era, where it was like, you have to like, you know, work all the
time and hustle and do all this stuff. And then we swung this
pendulum, it's like meditation, no alcohol
Amanda Goetz: Every extreme. And the through line of both of
those things is shame and prescribing like one way to live
a life with no fluidity and gray area. And it's like, okay, what
does meditation do? Okay, it allows your brain to like
decompress. And for you to like, reduce stimulus from your
external environment. There's lots of ways that you could do
that. So I'm trying to, like, allow people permission to
operate kind of in the gray.
Arvid Kahl: I think that's a very valuable approach to this.
Like, one thing that I truly, truly dislike about our culture,
as you just mentioned, is the whole grind set attitude, the
hustle culture thing and the other extreme, which is just
people telling you what other thing to do to live your life
perfectly. It's always people pushing.
Amanda Goetz: You should totally ice bath, you should totally be
meditating. It's like you're also stressing me.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's the thing. It's
just a massive amount of pressure either way, right?
You're not living your life to the fullest, whatever that may
mean. It means something different today than it did 10
years ago. But it's still either you do that or you're doing
something wrong. And I don't like that idea.
Amanda Goetz: Going back to what we talked about in the
beginning, which is people are searching for a solution. And so
why are there all these content creators? And why can't I just
write a book that's like, you're fine
Arvid Kahl: That's a great title. That's your title, you're
fine.
Amanda Goetz: You can't, so people are looking for solutions
to problems that they have. They're stressed, they're
anxious, and they are wanting someone to tell them what to do.
And I think it's knowing that there's no one way to live your
life and you need to absorb information to the extent that
you find what works for you and then everything else gets shut
off.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing that is probably the
hardest to learn. There is really no advice that will
always be perfectly applicable to your life. Right? And that's
something that I do want to talk to you about as well because
first of, you are now a person that is just by your mere
presence and in your audience and building the things that
you're building. You're giving advice to people, either
willingly consciously in the way you write or just by acting the
way you do. And I do wonder, like, how much of that is
intentional? Like do you sometimes think about like what
your impact on other people is? And maybe obviously, in the best
possible ways, but maybe also in how you can be misunderstood?
That's something I struggle with. This is why I'm asking
this, right? Like did you make sure you're not misunderstood?
Like, how do you deal with that?
Amanda Goetz: You can't when you're online and I was not
prepared for that, like I am a recovering people pleaser. I
have a high need to be liked. And I'm very aware of that. And
I've had to really work on that because at the end of the day,
like I said, like how I talk about life and how I approach
something, will rub people the wrong way. And that is not my
intention. And so the biggest piece of advice, like, I mean,
everyone gets bashed on Twitter specifically at some point when
you grow. It's like you know you're hitting a hockey stick
when someone hates you. And I was not prepared for that. And I
remember I took it really hard. And it really rocked me when I
had people kind of like, it's a pile on effect. There's an
amazing TV show called Brain child. It's on Netflix. It's
geared towards kids, but they do as an experiment. And I watched
it with my children, where they put kids in two different rooms.
And they show them the same video of a girl singing and she
was not a good singer. And they had one group say, hey, you're
gonna give anonymous feedback. She will never know. But give
your real feedback, right? Then the second room, they said, hey,
she's gonna come in, we're gonna have you give feedback, write
down what you're gonna say to her, right? And, of course, the
people who didn't think they'd have to say it to her face,
bashed her. And the other people said constructive things like
you might want to work on your tone. And so when this happens,
I luckily had a support system that was they took me this group
of people in Miami and I'm so thankful for them. My friend
Kenny and Devin and they literally said, we're going out
to dinner. And at dinner, they're like, we know who you
are, we know your heart and what your intention is. So remember
that this is what's important when this happens. And I think
if you're going into the creator sphere, you have to make sure
that you have that group of people for those days that
people will come after you and it just rocks you.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that is wonderful. It's wonderful that
you have those people to begin with. And that they reminded you
that you have those people, you know. That's their job as a
friend and as a supporter and motivator. You said something
along the lines of recently, I think, it's very important to
understand like, who you are giving access to yourself and
who you should stop giving access to yourself as well,
right?How do you live that on Twitter as your audience is
growing?
Amanda Goetz: Well, first of all, say like, look, we all have
different parts of our personality, right? If you break
me open, you've got all of these facets. And I think it's
interesting as my time on social media has evolved, which ones I
lead with and which ones I allow more access to. And that's an
evolving thing that I would empower everyone to kind of sit
down and say, okay, you've got this part of your life, this
part of your life, you've got all these different identities.
Which ones do you want people to have access to? And then as
you're doing that, empower yourself to change. Like, I used
to allow people access to my dating life because part of my
company was a sexual health and wellness company. So I was like,
I'm a single mom. I'm dating. And then I realized, like, I can
change that. And I can say, how much I'm going to allow and so
people know I'm in a relationship and if they follow
me on Instagram, maybe he appears in a picture too. But
like, there's a lot of things over the past year that I did
not allow access to as I was living my life and learning and
growing. And that's okay. It's okay to change.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, boundaries are the most important thing like
when you build an audience, but just when you're present on
social media to begin with, even if you don't have any
aspirations to build an audience boundaries and deciding which
what lies in within them clearly within them, what lies clearly
without them and what's kind of on the cusp. That is a massively
important thing. Yeah, I was gonna ask you about how you
balance this? Because you have a lot of personal things that you
share. But you also have private things that I don't think you
share, which is, you know, the absent. So I wonder how you
define this? But from what I hear you say this is just like
you have a pretty clear boundary for those things. Right?
Amanda Goetz: My therapist has been very, I mean, she's
amazing. And she has this tool that she's had me use, where am
I using social media as a diary or to help teach a lesson or
share a lesson? And the latter requires thought and
introspection and articulation in a way that you're delivering
a certain message. The former is just word vomit. And that has
been the biggest differentiator for me like, what am I sharing
on social media, whether it's Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn,
whatever, how much space went from thought to clicking post?
And truly, like, I have found that more regretful content that
I've shared, that time is a lot shorter. So I've just given
myself more space to say, okay, there's something that I might
want to share. Let me sit with it and really think about what's
the purpose of me sharing this? And where is it coming from? Is
it because I'm actually insecure about this thing that I'm doing?
And I'm seeking validation? That's not a good reason to
share. Is it because I'm proud of this decision I've made and
I'm excited to share why I've made it? That's a better
position to be.
Arvid Kahl: Okay, so you're riding the wave of the thought
for a couple of minutes. And then you see if that works for
you. I think out of all the frameworks of just like doing
sane stuff in my life, riding the wave has been one of the
most effective ones. Like, can I sit with this for five minutes
and still want it? Great idea and wonderful for somebody
building in public to have a kind of intentionality
measurement tool like that, like, do I really want this? Is
this really something I want to share? That is really helpful.
Thank you for sharing this. That's extremely valuable. Yeah,
that's great. Man, I'm thinking about Twitter right now because
that is a platform that we're both very active on. And let's
just call it a very volatile situation. I do wonder, you've
been talking about this in the last couple of weeks too or
you've asked people what they think about Twitter and the
recent changes and to you know, that the compensation, the ad
revenue share, and that kind of stuff. Now, as we've been
talking about authenticity and you know, sharing things that
are meant to teach and support and help, what do you think of
the most recent and I guess, at this point now for over a year,
pretty weird changes to the platform that have happened?
Like, do you still feel at home on Twitter? The same way you did
a couple years ago, maybe?
Amanda Goetz: I'll say yes
Arvid Kahl: Okay
Amanda Goetz: For this reason: when you do a really good job of
curating your lists and who you follow and you block. No, we
don't know if the block feature will be there. But when you
block quickly and mute quickly, Twitter still like you and I met
on Twitter and there are still incredible people who have great
intentions that you can learn a lot from. And there's no other
platform that I feel is like it. And the way I think of Twitter,
I'm a visual person. It's like, I'm standing in a field with
literally every investor and every, you know, big founder and
all these cool creators and I'm seeing a field and I can walk
right up to them and say something to them. How cool is
that?
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that's right.
Amanda Goetz: So it's just this thing that like, there is a
magic to it that I don't think is going anywhere. Now, like,
couple of things have happened to me recently, that shook me to
my core as a creator. I got hacked. I lost, someone got into
my Twitter and took over, kicked me out, removed me. I had, you
know, two factor authentification, all the things
and they started scamming people which first and foremost like
thing that hurt the most was like, they were using my
children as like the hook to get people to fall for the scam.
They were literally saying, like, I'm so sorry, because I
got to see the DMS when I got it back and it was like, I'm so
sorry to ask like, I need money for my kids. And because, like,
I think people feel connected to me, they were like, okay, of
course. And luckily some people saw when it was like a UK
address. Like they were like, wait a second. This feels weird.
But that was the first part that I was just like, I felt so icky.
And then the second thing was, holy shit! I don't own my
audience. And that was my wake up call where I was like,
newsletter, I need to diversify. I need to make sure LinkedIn.
I'm thinking about a podcast, like, I've got to figure out
ways that I can connect with people that's not just one
platform. So I definitely have had positive and negative
thoughts. And it's more just now a holistic view of how I'm gonna
build my brand.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that hack, that must have been scary.
Amanda Goetz: It was so like vague, like, you feel like
someone just came into your life. And then you're like, what
do they see? What do they have access to? And also, how did
they get it? And then I fell down all the rabbit holes of how
this is happening more and more. And so if you don't have an
authenticator app, get one now. And also, like, make sure that
you change your SIM card and all this stuff, like I went through
everything.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, well, thanks for sharing this. It must have
been quite traumatic. And as unhappy as that event is, I
think the consequence that you understood two things. I mean,
the one thing is really great that you have people in your
audience that really, really like you and want to help you.
That is a great learning from this, right? To know that they
would jump to your rescue if you needed them, that is just the
most wonderful thing. But on the other hand
Amanda Goetz: That's like, the amazing part of social media is
the depth of connection when you share authentically about what
you learn and who you are and what you're struggling with.
Like, I will never be the creator. That's going to be
like, I have it all buttoned up and perfect. And this is exactly
how you should do it. I will always be like, guys, I quit my
job and I'm scared, wanna figure it out. But like, I want people
to be like, okay, let's do this together.
Arvid Kahl: Yes. Well, I hope you stay that way forever and
never change.
Amanda Goetz: I'm getting close to 40, I don't know
Arvid Kahl: No, change any way you like, I think that is part
of the journey that you're on that is so interesting to watch
as well. I guess somebody on the sideline cheering you on. And
let's just let's close with this. Because this, I think, is
the perfect opportunity for you to tell people where they can
find you and where they can become part of your journey,
hopefully, to creator stardom even more than you already are.
Amanda Goetz: You're so sweet. Well, you know, we're all
chatting on Twitter if you're active there. But like I said,
the main way to connect with me, I respond to every email. So go
to amandagoetz.com and sign up for the newsletter. It's called
Life's A Game. And yeah, I would love to hear from people what
they're dealing with in terms of balancing ambition and hustle
culture because I think we all want to build things and do
something cool, but not at the expense of the rest of our
relationships, our lives. So yeah, that's where you could
find me.
Arvid Kahl: That's definitely a recommendation if you want to be
a full human being and not just like a shadow of some
entrepreneurial advice you read on a blog. You should follow
Amanda and read her newsletter because that is going to help
you out. Thank you so much for being on the show today. I had a
wonderful time chatting with you.
Amanda Goetz: It was so good to chat
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much.
And that's it for today. Now, we all want to build businesses
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Thank you so much for listening to The Bootstrapped Founder,
episode 250. You can find me on Twitter @arvidkahl. You'll find
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