1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,340 Welcome back to another episode of the Startup Therapy Podcast. 2 00:00:02,340 --> 00:00:04,170 This is Ryan Rutan, joined, as always by 3 00:00:04,170 --> 00:00:06,990 my friend, the founder, and CEO of startups.com. 4 00:00:06,990 --> 00:00:11,100 Will Schroeder, will we get to this point where we cash in 5 00:00:11,100 --> 00:00:15,360 life's chips and then we wonder, did we buy the right prize? 6 00:00:16,050 --> 00:00:18,660 Right now, we've done this story before. 7 00:00:18,810 --> 00:00:21,360 I'm gonna ask you to retell a story. 8 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,630 I want you to go back to the moment in time. 9 00:00:25,185 --> 00:00:29,745 You and Sarah in Beverly Hills looking at Bel Air about to 10 00:00:29,745 --> 00:00:32,055 buy a really expensive house. 11 00:00:32,265 --> 00:00:34,215 Just walk us through again, 'cause we're gonna play around 12 00:00:34,215 --> 00:00:37,245 with this in a different context today, around will 13 00:00:37,245 --> 00:00:38,775 the payoffs be worth it? 14 00:00:39,195 --> 00:00:40,995 We've talked about are the sacrifices worth it, but 15 00:00:40,995 --> 00:00:43,695 will the sacrifice be worth the payout today is we're 16 00:00:43,695 --> 00:00:45,735 gonna talk about, so I want you to take us back to that 17 00:00:45,735 --> 00:00:49,210 moment where you're wrestling with the thought that like. 18 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:52,200 I did all this stuff to get to this moment so that I 19 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:53,460 could make this decision. 20 00:00:53,700 --> 00:00:56,190 And then luckily, your, your, your wife stepped in. 21 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,570 Yeah, usually of all my life, my, my best of moments. 22 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,000 Uh, finish with, and then luckily my wife stepped in. 23 00:01:03,420 --> 00:01:05,520 Uh, you know, it's funny, y yesterday I was at dinner with 24 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,670 one of our founder members from startups.com, uh, that 25 00:01:08,670 --> 00:01:10,470 I met through startups.com, which is really cool, Uhhuh. 26 00:01:10,710 --> 00:01:13,350 And we're at dinner and he hands me a t-shirt and, uh, it's a 27 00:01:13,350 --> 00:01:14,520 t-shirt he had made for me. 28 00:01:14,910 --> 00:01:17,280 And it says, well, this seems like a terrible idea. 29 00:01:17,575 --> 00:01:18,145 What time? 30 00:01:20,185 --> 00:01:22,345 Like that's, that's the tagline of my life. 31 00:01:22,345 --> 00:01:22,855 Jesus. 32 00:01:22,885 --> 00:01:23,485 Uh, yes. 33 00:01:23,485 --> 00:01:24,505 That's fantastic. 34 00:01:24,535 --> 00:01:26,905 Yeah, it was, it was a really cool gift and it's 35 00:01:26,905 --> 00:01:27,955 so appropriate for this. 36 00:01:28,225 --> 00:01:31,225 So we're going back a few years now, and right now 37 00:01:31,225 --> 00:01:31,765 I'm thinking about that. 38 00:01:31,765 --> 00:01:32,545 That was six years ago. 39 00:01:32,965 --> 00:01:35,035 Like, yeah, I was thinking about this too. 40 00:01:35,065 --> 00:01:36,715 ' cause that until you said that, that felt 41 00:01:36,715 --> 00:01:37,825 like very recent history. 42 00:01:37,825 --> 00:01:38,310 But that was. 43 00:01:39,285 --> 00:01:40,035 Six years ago, 44 00:01:40,125 --> 00:01:41,895 so okay, we're, we're going back six years. 45 00:01:41,955 --> 00:01:44,175 My family and I had just moved a few years prior 46 00:01:44,175 --> 00:01:45,225 to that, to Los Angeles. 47 00:01:45,225 --> 00:01:47,355 We ended up finding a house in Beverly Hills and everyone's 48 00:01:47,355 --> 00:01:48,375 like, oh, that's so foo. 49 00:01:48,375 --> 00:01:50,205 You know, bougie guys gonna Beverly Hills. 50 00:01:50,415 --> 00:01:51,735 It was like our last choice. 51 00:01:51,735 --> 00:01:53,325 It just happened to be where we found a house Uhhuh. 52 00:01:53,625 --> 00:01:54,405 But anyway, so. 53 00:01:54,820 --> 00:01:56,080 We lived there for a few years. 54 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,090 We quickly outgrew the house 'cause it was tiny. 55 00:01:58,390 --> 00:02:00,970 And you know, my son Will had just been born and we 56 00:02:00,970 --> 00:02:03,429 needed more room, so we go looking for another house. 57 00:02:03,460 --> 00:02:05,860 Uh, my daughter had started school in Beverly Hills. 58 00:02:05,860 --> 00:02:08,680 She, she loved it and we wanted to stay in that school district. 59 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:10,750 So we ended up finding a house that was like 10 minutes 60 00:02:10,750 --> 00:02:13,540 away, which if you don't know your LA geography, uh, 61 00:02:13,540 --> 00:02:16,180 Beverly Hills and Bel Air are just two tiny towns, more or 62 00:02:16,180 --> 00:02:17,230 less adjacent to each other. 63 00:02:17,590 --> 00:02:18,430 That's where we find a house. 64 00:02:18,790 --> 00:02:20,890 And I say this and it's not like big time it being 65 00:02:20,890 --> 00:02:22,630 Bel Air, literally, dude, that just happens to be 66 00:02:22,630 --> 00:02:23,065 where we find a house. 67 00:02:23,545 --> 00:02:25,285 Um, I wasn't trying to be the fresh Prince 68 00:02:25,285 --> 00:02:26,455 of Bill there, right. 69 00:02:26,455 --> 00:02:28,585 So, anyway, and I mean, maybe, yeah. 70 00:02:28,585 --> 00:02:29,965 I mean, it wouldn't be the worst outcome. 71 00:02:30,445 --> 00:02:32,095 We get to the, the finish line with this house. 72 00:02:32,095 --> 00:02:34,195 We go through, you know, the negotiations and everything, and 73 00:02:34,195 --> 00:02:36,085 it's, it's a big purchase right? 74 00:02:36,085 --> 00:02:39,175 When we're on the goal line, Sarah and I had, uh, been 75 00:02:39,175 --> 00:02:41,725 on a, a, a quick vacation, like a weekend vacation, 76 00:02:41,905 --> 00:02:44,575 and, uh, we're sitting at dinner on vacation in Mexico. 77 00:02:44,965 --> 00:02:47,005 Sarah's like, kind of sitting there going, you 78 00:02:47,005 --> 00:02:50,965 know, this is probably a bad idea because as you know, 79 00:02:50,965 --> 00:02:51,925 she's the conservative one. 80 00:02:52,255 --> 00:02:55,045 She's, everything for her is, this is a bad idea and 81 00:02:55,045 --> 00:02:57,205 everything for me is, this seems like a terrible idea. 82 00:02:57,205 --> 00:02:57,685 What time? 83 00:02:57,805 --> 00:02:57,985 Right? 84 00:02:58,435 --> 00:02:58,885 What time? 85 00:02:59,155 --> 00:02:59,665 I'm so ready. 86 00:02:59,725 --> 00:03:00,055 I agree. 87 00:03:00,055 --> 00:03:01,555 It's a bad idea, but we're gonna do it. 88 00:03:01,555 --> 00:03:02,125 Yeah, exactly. 89 00:03:02,185 --> 00:03:04,225 Yeah, that, that's literally my job description. 90 00:03:04,495 --> 00:03:05,275 Here's what I told her. 91 00:03:05,275 --> 00:03:08,535 I said I. If we balk on this, this is actually 92 00:03:08,535 --> 00:03:09,674 a big problem for me. 93 00:03:10,244 --> 00:03:13,005 And I said, you've gotta understand, like I've been 94 00:03:13,005 --> 00:03:17,144 working my entire life sacrificing and risking nonstop. 95 00:03:17,144 --> 00:03:20,385 I can't begin to tell you how many sacrifices 96 00:03:20,385 --> 00:03:21,285 I made to get here. 97 00:03:21,375 --> 00:03:23,355 And she's been through many of them, so she's aware. 98 00:03:23,535 --> 00:03:23,685 Yeah, 99 00:03:23,744 --> 00:03:27,584 like for the first six years of my career, I didn't see my 100 00:03:27,584 --> 00:03:28,904 family or celebrate a holiday. 101 00:03:29,220 --> 00:03:30,570 I never came home for Christmas. 102 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,250 I remember I went to other people's house for 103 00:03:32,250 --> 00:03:35,010 Christmas because my family was too far away to make 104 00:03:35,010 --> 00:03:37,920 the travel and I had to be able to come back in time. 105 00:03:38,190 --> 00:03:40,829 And so those are pretty significant sacrifices 106 00:03:40,829 --> 00:03:41,459 that you don't get back. 107 00:03:41,459 --> 00:03:41,519 Yeah. 108 00:03:42,149 --> 00:03:44,489 You and I, Ryan, you and I talked about it where like, 109 00:03:44,549 --> 00:03:45,630 I don't remember college. 110 00:03:45,945 --> 00:03:46,035 I 111 00:03:46,035 --> 00:03:48,195 know I was there, but I just worked through college. 112 00:03:48,255 --> 00:03:50,265 Yeah, I remember, I remember being in classrooms. 113 00:03:50,535 --> 00:03:53,025 I remember being in big office buildings and, and, 114 00:03:53,025 --> 00:03:55,455 and selling, uh, you know, enterprise level client stuff. 115 00:03:55,935 --> 00:03:58,245 I don't remember, like, you know, I learned to play 116 00:03:58,245 --> 00:03:59,060 beer pong when I was like. 117 00:03:59,894 --> 00:04:00,825 30 in Cyprus, 118 00:04:02,415 --> 00:04:04,785 like I I, I've never been little arrested development. 119 00:04:04,995 --> 00:04:06,734 I've never hung out on the quad, so to speak. 120 00:04:06,734 --> 00:04:09,315 Like I, college just happened to be an address that I 121 00:04:09,315 --> 00:04:10,245 had while I was working. 122 00:04:10,305 --> 00:04:10,575 Okay. 123 00:04:10,935 --> 00:04:11,055 Yeah. 124 00:04:11,055 --> 00:04:13,065 I'm, I'm nonstop sacrifice. 125 00:04:13,065 --> 00:04:15,435 And then so many things that come with it, with building 126 00:04:15,435 --> 00:04:17,235 your own company and the sacrifice, the things that 127 00:04:17,235 --> 00:04:19,935 every single person listening to this inherently understands. 128 00:04:20,265 --> 00:04:20,565 Okay. 129 00:04:20,834 --> 00:04:23,895 So when you make all those sacrifices, we make them 130 00:04:23,925 --> 00:04:25,425 with the expectation that there will be a payout. 131 00:04:25,915 --> 00:04:26,515 Every time. 132 00:04:26,515 --> 00:04:29,125 I feel like it's a little promise that you make to 133 00:04:29,125 --> 00:04:32,785 yourself when you make that sacrifice that it's okay, 134 00:04:33,355 --> 00:04:34,405 because I'll pay it back later. 135 00:04:34,975 --> 00:04:36,835 It's okay, because I'll get more 136 00:04:36,925 --> 00:04:37,405 later. 137 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:39,090 But we don't actually know if that's true. 138 00:04:39,210 --> 00:04:39,660 We don't. 139 00:04:39,660 --> 00:04:42,810 We treat, we treat sacrifice like it's a savings account. 140 00:04:42,870 --> 00:04:43,020 Mm-hmm. 141 00:04:43,260 --> 00:04:43,380 Right? 142 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,110 But we never check the balance or the terms. 143 00:04:46,110 --> 00:04:46,200 Right? 144 00:04:46,860 --> 00:04:49,590 Like, so when do I get to withdraw it? 145 00:04:49,740 --> 00:04:50,400 N never. 146 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:50,790 Never. 147 00:04:50,790 --> 00:04:51,000 Right? 148 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:51,835 It doesn't work that way. 149 00:04:51,835 --> 00:04:52,470 Well stick with that. 150 00:04:52,530 --> 00:04:52,920 Yeah. 151 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:54,900 There's no interest said this before in the podcast. 152 00:04:54,900 --> 00:04:55,410 I must say it again. 153 00:04:55,830 --> 00:04:58,350 There is no interest earned on happiness 154 00:04:58,350 --> 00:04:59,730 deferred or life deferred. 155 00:04:59,850 --> 00:05:02,940 It doesn't come back tenfold later just because you gave it 156 00:05:02,940 --> 00:05:04,650 up now sometimes it does, right? 157 00:05:04,650 --> 00:05:05,880 You might get a big pat at the end. 158 00:05:06,030 --> 00:05:06,630 You might. 159 00:05:07,155 --> 00:05:08,294 It's not like a guarantee. 160 00:05:08,294 --> 00:05:09,615 There's, there's no just automatic 161 00:05:09,615 --> 00:05:10,935 compounding in this one 162 00:05:10,935 --> 00:05:11,175 isn't. 163 00:05:11,205 --> 00:05:14,145 This episode isn't so much, I think about the sacrifice 164 00:05:14,145 --> 00:05:15,255 as it is for the payout. 165 00:05:15,555 --> 00:05:17,265 Let's assume the sacrifice was significant. 166 00:05:17,565 --> 00:05:20,445 The question in this episode is, is there a payout that 167 00:05:20,445 --> 00:05:21,465 could match the sacrifice? 168 00:05:22,185 --> 00:05:22,395 Sure. 169 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,075 And, and I think there's an assumption that there is. 170 00:05:24,075 --> 00:05:25,635 So here's what happened to me in this case. 171 00:05:25,905 --> 00:05:29,115 So, uh, we're sitting there and my whole thing was like, look, 172 00:05:29,385 --> 00:05:33,135 if I don't cash these chips in now, this was the moment, like 173 00:05:33,135 --> 00:05:36,765 there was clearly, this was the moment where it was gonna be the 174 00:05:36,765 --> 00:05:38,715 biggest purchase of our lives. 175 00:05:38,955 --> 00:05:41,685 It was, you know, this, this beautiful house in, in Bel Air. 176 00:05:41,685 --> 00:05:46,485 Like it was, it was exactly what you dream of being able to do 177 00:05:46,815 --> 00:05:49,724 if you make those sacrifices, if you take those risks, right? 178 00:05:49,724 --> 00:05:51,615 So this was clearly the moment to me. 179 00:05:51,810 --> 00:05:54,390 It was something extraordinary that put the extraordinary 180 00:05:54,390 --> 00:05:57,660 sacrifice into some level of balance to the extent, extent 181 00:05:57,660 --> 00:05:58,800 that we can quantify either. 182 00:05:59,010 --> 00:06:00,300 As soon as you said that, Ryan, I just thought 183 00:06:00,300 --> 00:06:00,930 of something else. 184 00:06:01,380 --> 00:06:02,610 It made me think about it. 185 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:04,560 I gotta say, up until that point, and not that 186 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:05,760 I never thought about it. 187 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,430 Oh, you know what, it's, I never quantified the sacrifice 188 00:06:08,430 --> 00:06:09,600 before the quantification. 189 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:10,710 That's the, that's the challenge, right? 190 00:06:11,055 --> 00:06:13,875 If I started just brainstorming and I were to say, here are 191 00:06:13,875 --> 00:06:16,455 all the major things that I missed that I will never 192 00:06:16,455 --> 00:06:17,655 get back my twenties, yep. 193 00:06:17,895 --> 00:06:20,715 Et cetera, if I was gonna make that sacrifice, if I was 194 00:06:20,715 --> 00:06:21,705 gonna make that investment. 195 00:06:22,170 --> 00:06:23,790 This is the time to, to, to pay it out. 196 00:06:24,030 --> 00:06:26,340 So then the question was, was it worth it? 197 00:06:26,580 --> 00:06:26,670 Right. 198 00:06:26,670 --> 00:06:28,380 And what, uh, Sarah ends up saying, she's like, 199 00:06:28,710 --> 00:06:31,050 it's not, she's like, this is a huge rip off. 200 00:06:31,230 --> 00:06:31,440 Right. 201 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,810 You know, relative to what we're paying and what we're getting. 202 00:06:34,050 --> 00:06:34,980 It's ridiculous. 203 00:06:35,550 --> 00:06:39,180 And I was like, yeah, but if, if I don't cash my chips in, like 204 00:06:39,180 --> 00:06:40,410 this is a huge problem for me. 205 00:06:40,770 --> 00:06:42,210 And she says to me, she says, you know what? 206 00:06:42,540 --> 00:06:44,250 The whole point of that wasn't that you have to 207 00:06:44,250 --> 00:06:45,270 cash your chips in now. 208 00:06:45,690 --> 00:06:47,190 It's that you had chips to cash in at all. 209 00:06:47,580 --> 00:06:47,970 Yeah. 210 00:06:48,390 --> 00:06:50,969 So you don't have to cash them in now, find another 211 00:06:50,969 --> 00:06:51,614 way to cash 'em in. 212 00:06:51,614 --> 00:06:51,659 Yeah. 213 00:06:52,049 --> 00:06:54,989 And based on that argument, we both agreed 214 00:06:54,989 --> 00:06:56,159 right there, fuck it. 215 00:06:56,489 --> 00:06:58,530 We're out and we moved back to Columbus a week later. 216 00:06:58,530 --> 00:06:58,590 Yeah. 217 00:06:59,039 --> 00:07:01,799 So I mean like as quickly as we tried to get into that 218 00:07:01,799 --> 00:07:04,289 decision, we looked at it and we said, you know what? 219 00:07:04,590 --> 00:07:05,400 Different direction. 220 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:06,000 And we 221 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:07,320 bailed and we moved back to Ohio. 222 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:07,409 Yeah. 223 00:07:07,409 --> 00:07:07,890 And you know what? 224 00:07:07,950 --> 00:07:11,489 Six years later, I have never heard you say not a single time. 225 00:07:11,910 --> 00:07:13,950 A single thing about, oh, you know what? 226 00:07:13,950 --> 00:07:15,690 I miss our ability to do this. 227 00:07:15,690 --> 00:07:17,430 Or I miss when I, whatever. 228 00:07:17,430 --> 00:07:17,730 Right. 229 00:07:17,730 --> 00:07:20,580 Like, I miss running past all 12 of Channing Tatum's 230 00:07:20,580 --> 00:07:22,920 abs, uh, on my morning jog. 231 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:23,220 Right. 232 00:07:23,220 --> 00:07:24,330 Or whatever the hell it was. 233 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:24,510 Right. 234 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:24,780 Yeah. 235 00:07:24,780 --> 00:07:25,680 I haven't heard you say it. 236 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:26,820 Not a once. 237 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:26,970 I 238 00:07:26,970 --> 00:07:27,180 don't, 239 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,570 I'm sure my wife does, but I feel 240 00:07:30,570 --> 00:07:31,770 very differently about his ads. 241 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:33,690 I heard he's down to a 10 pack now 242 00:07:33,690 --> 00:07:34,080 that he's given. 243 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:34,345 Yeah, yeah. 244 00:07:34,350 --> 00:07:34,680 Exactly. 245 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:35,010 Exactly. 246 00:07:35,010 --> 00:07:36,900 But what, what was interesting for me. 247 00:07:37,365 --> 00:07:41,505 I was forced to confront whether or not the sacrifice 248 00:07:41,505 --> 00:07:42,465 that we all take on. 249 00:07:42,765 --> 00:07:42,885 Yeah. 250 00:07:42,885 --> 00:07:44,115 Aligned with a payout. 251 00:07:44,534 --> 00:07:47,895 And I think what's interesting is, is that for many of us, the 252 00:07:47,895 --> 00:07:51,945 sacrifice comes natural, but we don't really always know how 253 00:07:51,945 --> 00:07:53,205 this payout's going to work. 254 00:07:53,300 --> 00:07:54,090 Right, sure. 255 00:07:54,090 --> 00:07:54,099 Right. 256 00:07:54,465 --> 00:07:56,475 When you look back and you look, uh, actually, you 257 00:07:56,475 --> 00:07:57,255 know, let me ask you this. 258 00:07:57,585 --> 00:07:59,445 Recently, you just moved to Madrid. 259 00:07:59,594 --> 00:08:01,995 You guys just went to Valencia as a family. 260 00:08:02,265 --> 00:08:04,034 Was there a moment where you were like, 261 00:08:04,395 --> 00:08:05,325 this is extraordinary? 262 00:08:06,375 --> 00:08:06,735 It does. 263 00:08:06,735 --> 00:08:06,974 Yeah. 264 00:08:06,974 --> 00:08:07,755 Holy cow here. 265 00:08:08,445 --> 00:08:08,685 Yeah. 266 00:08:08,685 --> 00:08:09,210 And then we're here. 267 00:08:09,210 --> 00:08:10,695 Then reflect on the sacrifice to get there. 268 00:08:10,965 --> 00:08:11,385 Yes. 269 00:08:11,385 --> 00:08:12,890 And you reflect on the sacrifice and you go. 270 00:08:13,605 --> 00:08:14,265 This was worth it. 271 00:08:14,475 --> 00:08:15,765 This feels in balance. 272 00:08:16,095 --> 00:08:18,135 I think there's, there's something extremely important 273 00:08:18,135 --> 00:08:20,505 in all of that, which is that like, I didn't buy Valencia, 274 00:08:20,985 --> 00:08:21,675 I just experienced it. 275 00:08:21,855 --> 00:08:22,335 Right, right. 276 00:08:22,425 --> 00:08:25,335 Be because I think to some degree we do end up like 277 00:08:25,575 --> 00:08:29,475 aligning because we don't, we don't define extraordinary well. 278 00:08:29,475 --> 00:08:31,275 Like we had an extraordinary time in Valencia. 279 00:08:31,275 --> 00:08:31,785 It was amazing. 280 00:08:31,785 --> 00:08:33,585 A couple days at the beach, couple days at the museums. 281 00:08:33,585 --> 00:08:37,065 Like really, really just had a great time, uh, with the family. 282 00:08:37,424 --> 00:08:40,395 But we don't clearly define extraordinary in a lot of cases. 283 00:08:40,395 --> 00:08:41,655 And then the default just becomes. 284 00:08:41,910 --> 00:08:43,080 More and more is never enough. 285 00:08:43,410 --> 00:08:45,000 And I think we get to this point where it's like, 286 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,600 you know, big purchase equals big purpose, right? 287 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,140 So this is, I have to do this in a, in a one-off. 288 00:08:52,140 --> 00:08:53,850 I have to balance the scales. 289 00:08:53,850 --> 00:08:53,910 Yeah. 290 00:08:53,910 --> 00:08:56,670 The scales of sacrifice are completely tipped to the floor. 291 00:08:56,940 --> 00:08:59,100 I've gotta, I gotta do something to balance this out. 292 00:08:59,550 --> 00:09:03,180 I think that what I'm finding over time is that 293 00:09:03,570 --> 00:09:08,280 instead of looking for that singular payout, I'm 294 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:09,105 treating it more like. 295 00:09:09,945 --> 00:09:11,445 A line of equity, right? 296 00:09:11,625 --> 00:09:14,775 Where I can just constantly make daily withdrawals and 297 00:09:14,775 --> 00:09:17,355 just draw down and just enjoy and do the things. 298 00:09:17,985 --> 00:09:20,445 And I get it though, like when you were sitting there 299 00:09:21,045 --> 00:09:24,015 at that dinner in Mexico, thinking about the Bel Air 300 00:09:24,015 --> 00:09:27,405 House, you weren't defending a decision around a house. 301 00:09:27,465 --> 00:09:30,075 You were defending the meaning of 30 years of work. 302 00:09:30,225 --> 00:09:30,885 Let's build on that. 303 00:09:30,915 --> 00:09:33,015 'cause again, in this episode we're talking about the payout. 304 00:09:33,435 --> 00:09:34,620 What if up until that point. 305 00:09:35,340 --> 00:09:37,230 I had just assumed that was the payout. 306 00:09:37,260 --> 00:09:40,380 You know, maybe, maybe my vision of it wasn't quite that crystal 307 00:09:40,380 --> 00:09:42,720 clear that it was exactly the street in Bel Air, you know? 308 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:43,110 Sure thing. 309 00:09:43,530 --> 00:09:49,260 But that was a, a very visceral like feeling to be 310 00:09:49,260 --> 00:09:51,510 walking into this beautiful house in Bel Air and be able 311 00:09:51,510 --> 00:09:52,620 to say, I can afford this. 312 00:09:53,535 --> 00:09:56,205 I came from a place where there's no way I, I, I couldn't 313 00:09:56,205 --> 00:09:58,875 have afforded to rent out the driveway and, and get to a 314 00:09:58,875 --> 00:10:01,305 point where I'm like, okay, it's a lot of money, but I, but, 315 00:10:01,305 --> 00:10:02,564 but I could make this happen. 316 00:10:03,225 --> 00:10:05,985 But then part of me was like, okay, I made all those 317 00:10:05,985 --> 00:10:09,075 sacrifices so I could be able to say that, but was this 318 00:10:09,075 --> 00:10:12,255 really what I had in mind was this specifically it? 319 00:10:12,855 --> 00:10:14,444 And it turned out, and again, this, this is, 320 00:10:14,444 --> 00:10:15,345 we'll get to this later. 321 00:10:15,705 --> 00:10:16,515 It wasn't it. 322 00:10:16,785 --> 00:10:18,525 And that, that terrified me more. 323 00:10:18,930 --> 00:10:19,950 Because for a while I was 324 00:10:19,950 --> 00:10:21,090 like, well, what just happened? 325 00:10:21,210 --> 00:10:23,490 I think part, part of the, what we, we end up going 326 00:10:23,490 --> 00:10:26,670 through is that we look for these things that will be 327 00:10:26,700 --> 00:10:30,780 obvious signals that, that there was a return, right? 328 00:10:30,780 --> 00:10:33,180 That again, people have seen the sacrifices or maybe not, 329 00:10:33,210 --> 00:10:36,390 but we've done the sacrifices and so we want the world 330 00:10:36,390 --> 00:10:39,750 to know that it was worth it and so we did something. 331 00:10:40,170 --> 00:10:43,380 And so I think oftentimes some of the decisions I've 332 00:10:43,380 --> 00:10:45,900 become close to making or like things that would've been a 333 00:10:45,900 --> 00:10:47,955 good signal to everybody else instead of what I wanted. 334 00:10:48,870 --> 00:10:51,390 That it was really geared towards like this'll be a good 335 00:10:51,390 --> 00:10:53,400 signal that I did well, right? 336 00:10:53,610 --> 00:10:56,700 This big purchase will will signal that, yes, I did it 337 00:10:57,390 --> 00:10:59,820 to everybody else, but then I looked at it and went like, but 338 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,340 do I actually care about that? 339 00:11:02,340 --> 00:11:03,600 Do I actually want that? 340 00:11:03,660 --> 00:11:06,330 And in your case, like, thank God you didn't buy that house. 341 00:11:06,330 --> 00:11:06,630 Right? 342 00:11:06,690 --> 00:11:09,030 It's interesting to me because we all put it 343 00:11:09,030 --> 00:11:10,290 in the sacrifice, right? 344 00:11:10,290 --> 00:11:11,670 Again, we all understand the sacrifice. 345 00:11:11,970 --> 00:11:15,270 What we never can quantify is what's the rate of 346 00:11:15,270 --> 00:11:16,770 pay for that sacrifice. 347 00:11:17,355 --> 00:11:17,715 Sure, sure. 348 00:11:17,715 --> 00:11:20,565 Now the, the rate of pay is directly proportionate 349 00:11:20,595 --> 00:11:22,245 to what you think your payout's going to be. 350 00:11:22,485 --> 00:11:22,755 Okay? 351 00:11:22,755 --> 00:11:22,815 Yeah. 352 00:11:22,815 --> 00:11:25,095 So in other words, if it's like I'm gonna sacrifice, you 353 00:11:25,095 --> 00:11:27,375 know, a crazy amount of time, so I can buy a $10 million 354 00:11:27,375 --> 00:11:30,525 house in Bel Air, then there's some rate of pay of sacrifice 355 00:11:30,525 --> 00:11:31,965 that like that aligns there. 356 00:11:32,235 --> 00:11:34,695 But if you have no idea what that outcome is, you 357 00:11:34,695 --> 00:11:36,645 then also have no idea what your rate of pay is. 358 00:11:36,975 --> 00:11:39,315 And I'm not saying it has to be that proportionate, but I'm 359 00:11:39,315 --> 00:11:40,785 saying when you have no outcome. 360 00:11:41,370 --> 00:11:43,380 You, you like, or it's just too amorphous. 361 00:11:43,620 --> 00:11:45,330 Like you can't define the outcome. 362 00:11:45,330 --> 00:11:47,100 You're like, I just want things to be better. 363 00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:47,910 You're screwed. 364 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:50,640 Because then your rate of pay could be literally anything. 365 00:11:50,940 --> 00:11:54,180 And the, the example I use is like, imagine you've 366 00:11:54,180 --> 00:11:55,440 got your first job, right? 367 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:58,050 And you know, whatever your crappy first job is, your bag 368 00:11:58,050 --> 00:12:00,780 groceries, your, you know, uh, mow mowing lawns, you know, 369 00:12:00,780 --> 00:12:02,130 shoveling driveways, whatever. 370 00:12:02,580 --> 00:12:05,070 And after your first two weeks, your boss comes to you and 371 00:12:05,070 --> 00:12:06,240 says, thanks for everything. 372 00:12:06,510 --> 00:12:07,620 Here's 28 cents. 373 00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:09,420 You're like, what the hell? 374 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,070 I just worked nonstop. 375 00:12:11,070 --> 00:12:13,170 I sweated like crazy for two weeks and that 376 00:12:13,170 --> 00:12:14,130 was my rate of pay. 377 00:12:14,460 --> 00:12:18,330 That's essentially what happens when you don't have a payout 378 00:12:18,570 --> 00:12:19,830 that aligns with the sacrifice. 379 00:12:19,950 --> 00:12:22,170 So I was gonna say like I think that's the, the challenge around 380 00:12:22,170 --> 00:12:25,560 having those big goals, and I think the other thing that 381 00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:29,880 ends up doing that is that we make the sacrifices across 382 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:31,680 such a long period of time. 383 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:32,130 Yeah. 384 00:12:32,190 --> 00:12:35,010 And most of them are absolutely meaningful. 385 00:12:35,415 --> 00:12:37,785 But they're very justifiable in a moment. 386 00:12:37,844 --> 00:12:38,204 Yeah, 387 00:12:38,265 --> 00:12:40,694 because that does get paid out, right? 388 00:12:40,694 --> 00:12:42,824 That those are absolutely paid day by day, by 389 00:12:42,824 --> 00:12:44,084 day, by day by day. 390 00:12:44,354 --> 00:12:46,755 You don't write a big sacrifice, check at the beginning, 391 00:12:47,084 --> 00:12:48,375 and then earn the payout. 392 00:12:48,405 --> 00:12:52,035 You, you pay as you go consistently. 393 00:12:52,755 --> 00:12:54,734 And again, when you don't have, when you got that, that 394 00:12:54,734 --> 00:12:56,295 big blurry goal out there. 395 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,200 And like, let's, let's dig into this for a second. 396 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,420 'cause like, what's the most common, like vague or 397 00:13:00,420 --> 00:13:03,330 blurry gold that, that you hear freedom, impact, time? 398 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:05,490 Like what are you hearing from other founders? 399 00:13:05,610 --> 00:13:07,380 Well, okay, you know, it's funny you say, 'cause as 400 00:13:07,380 --> 00:13:09,300 you were talking I was like, you, you were talking 401 00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:11,700 about what your payout was, you know, throughout this. 402 00:13:12,210 --> 00:13:14,880 And I was thinking your payout, you're being, a lot 403 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,640 of people's mind included, was the freedom to go to Valencia 404 00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:20,400 was the, the freedom, all of which you've earned, right? 405 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,350 You know, which is the point of the sacrifice, the freedom 406 00:13:22,350 --> 00:13:24,030 to, to do a job that you enjoy. 407 00:13:24,599 --> 00:13:26,310 Versus having to take a job that you hate. 408 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,040 All of these things are incredible payouts. 409 00:13:29,430 --> 00:13:31,650 They don't all involve a giant house, right. 410 00:13:31,650 --> 00:13:34,439 Or a private jet, but they are incredible payouts. 411 00:13:34,469 --> 00:13:36,209 Uh, peace of mind, pride of work. 412 00:13:36,209 --> 00:13:39,239 I mean, there's, there's a really long list of somewhat 413 00:13:39,239 --> 00:13:41,459 intangibles, but take them away. 414 00:13:41,550 --> 00:13:42,449 There's no value to it. 415 00:13:42,540 --> 00:13:42,750 Right? 416 00:13:42,750 --> 00:13:45,420 In other words, it's so, so important For me, I always 417 00:13:45,420 --> 00:13:48,989 used to say the same thing if you paid me 10 times more 418 00:13:49,140 --> 00:13:52,140 than I make right now, but you say, the only caveat 419 00:13:52,140 --> 00:13:53,520 is you now have a boss. 420 00:13:54,165 --> 00:13:54,705 Not interested. 421 00:13:54,975 --> 00:13:56,625 There's literally nothing I could buy. 422 00:13:56,625 --> 00:13:57,855 Not 'cause I'm so wealthy, I'm not. 423 00:13:58,095 --> 00:14:01,185 But there's nothing you could buy for 10 times more 424 00:14:01,455 --> 00:14:04,905 for me that would outweigh having an answer to someone. 425 00:14:05,385 --> 00:14:06,585 It's kind of just that simple. 426 00:14:06,975 --> 00:14:10,515 I value that freedom as a tremendous part of the 427 00:14:10,515 --> 00:14:11,580 sacrifice in the payout. 428 00:14:12,705 --> 00:14:14,445 I think that once you understand how to use it, 429 00:14:14,535 --> 00:14:16,965 it's one of those where I hear that and I do, I get it. 430 00:14:16,965 --> 00:14:19,515 I totally understand it, but I think that there's, there's 431 00:14:19,515 --> 00:14:21,825 a challenge around some of those as well, because when 432 00:14:21,825 --> 00:14:24,555 the goal is amorphous, then again, like you don't know 433 00:14:24,555 --> 00:14:25,455 what your rate to pay is. 434 00:14:25,605 --> 00:14:25,875 Right. 435 00:14:25,875 --> 00:14:27,435 If, if you're saying like, I'll get Yeah. 436 00:14:27,555 --> 00:14:27,975 Paid. 437 00:14:28,065 --> 00:14:31,815 We don't know how much or freedom of what sort. 438 00:14:31,815 --> 00:14:32,175 Right. 439 00:14:32,175 --> 00:14:33,255 And with what are the restrictions. 440 00:14:33,255 --> 00:14:37,155 So I think it's just, it's super important to just have some kind 441 00:14:37,155 --> 00:14:39,075 of a goal or, or, or maybe not. 442 00:14:39,375 --> 00:14:39,615 Right. 443 00:14:39,615 --> 00:14:41,025 And maybe, maybe that is the other side. 444 00:14:41,025 --> 00:14:43,785 It's like, because I think if you had picked, because we 445 00:14:43,785 --> 00:14:44,775 see that happen too, right. 446 00:14:44,775 --> 00:14:46,725 And we've, we've done an entire episode on like play 447 00:14:46,725 --> 00:14:48,075 testing some of your dreams. 448 00:14:48,615 --> 00:14:50,925 Which you did in la, which I did in Florida. 449 00:14:50,925 --> 00:14:54,405 And we, we, we come to find out like retirement's definitely not 450 00:14:54,405 --> 00:14:56,115 what we're aiming for, right? 451 00:14:56,625 --> 00:14:58,425 That isn't a goal that we actually wanted. 452 00:14:58,425 --> 00:15:00,735 And so I think there's an interesting danger around, 453 00:15:00,735 --> 00:15:04,755 like the clear definition of the goal can also lead to its 454 00:15:04,755 --> 00:15:05,655 own level of disappointment. 455 00:15:05,655 --> 00:15:07,635 Because if you thought the only thing you had in mind 456 00:15:07,635 --> 00:15:09,314 was like, I need that house, and if I don't get that house, 457 00:15:09,314 --> 00:15:10,875 then, then it doesn't work. 458 00:15:10,875 --> 00:15:12,405 And then you get to that point and then you decide. 459 00:15:12,735 --> 00:15:14,415 Actually, I don't want to need of that house. 460 00:15:14,775 --> 00:15:16,755 Did you feel like you were in a vacuum at that point? 461 00:15:16,755 --> 00:15:17,205 For a minute. 462 00:15:17,505 --> 00:15:18,135 Huge. 463 00:15:18,165 --> 00:15:19,065 Okay, so let's, let's 464 00:15:19,065 --> 00:15:19,725 talk about that. 465 00:15:19,755 --> 00:15:19,815 Yeah. 466 00:15:20,025 --> 00:15:21,435 It fucked me up for a while. 467 00:15:21,795 --> 00:15:22,305 I'll bet. 468 00:15:22,755 --> 00:15:25,005 Because I didn't have, I remember. 469 00:15:25,575 --> 00:15:26,475 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 470 00:15:26,475 --> 00:15:29,865 I didn't have a, like, once you took that finish line 471 00:15:29,865 --> 00:15:31,605 or that trophy or, you know, however ever you want to, 472 00:15:31,665 --> 00:15:33,705 uh, attack it off the table. 473 00:15:34,035 --> 00:15:35,325 I was like, I can't one up that. 474 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,670 In other words, if that's not what I'm looking for, then 475 00:15:38,820 --> 00:15:39,750 what the hell just happen? 476 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,150 And I wasn't like, oh, that's cool, I'll just go on a cool 477 00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:44,790 vacation and, and that'll be, you know, it was all worth it. 478 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:45,090 Damn. 479 00:15:45,090 --> 00:15:48,540 It was the first time where I had to really second guess 480 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,040 whether this was all worth it. 481 00:15:50,460 --> 00:15:53,820 When you don't have shit, you can always say, when 482 00:15:53,820 --> 00:15:57,060 I get said stuff that I don't have, that it will fix 483 00:15:57,060 --> 00:15:59,250 current problem, whatever your current problem is. 484 00:15:59,250 --> 00:16:01,110 I mean, it is, it is the bane. 485 00:16:01,620 --> 00:16:05,010 Of every, every marriage, it's, well when we just fix 486 00:16:05,010 --> 00:16:06,750 this one thing, Uhhuh, right? 487 00:16:06,750 --> 00:16:07,349 Usually it's money. 488 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:08,844 Then marriage will be great. 489 00:16:09,870 --> 00:16:11,219 It almost never works, 490 00:16:11,370 --> 00:16:11,760 right? 491 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,349 Had this conversation with the founder today, not 492 00:16:13,349 --> 00:16:15,719 about marriage, but just about like the desire for 493 00:16:15,719 --> 00:16:17,670 an exit and saying like, oh, well, once I don't have 494 00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:20,040 the stress of this business, then life will be better. 495 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:21,719 I'm like, remember that? 496 00:16:21,719 --> 00:16:23,910 Like you're creating a lot of this stress within the 497 00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:26,099 business, and so if you think that you won't somehow find a 498 00:16:26,099 --> 00:16:28,410 way to create similar stress in your regular life when you 499 00:16:28,410 --> 00:16:31,079 no longer have the business probably misleading yourself. 500 00:16:31,140 --> 00:16:33,660 You know, Ryan, as you know, like every year in December, 501 00:16:33,660 --> 00:16:34,439 I take the month off. 502 00:16:34,495 --> 00:16:37,135 And I usually go work more, but, uh, 503 00:16:37,285 --> 00:16:38,815 I was gonna say, yeah, I think you take the month 504 00:16:38,815 --> 00:16:41,665 off is probably not that you, you change to a more 505 00:16:41,665 --> 00:16:42,955 rigorous type of work. 506 00:16:42,985 --> 00:16:45,715 Yeah, I go work a harder job and so it usually involves 507 00:16:45,715 --> 00:16:49,985 a lot of sawdust and uh, in sweat when I'm doing that job. 508 00:16:50,604 --> 00:16:53,245 Right, and I'm, I'm building stuff and again, I'm, 509 00:16:53,245 --> 00:16:54,354 I'm not working this job. 510 00:16:54,354 --> 00:16:56,365 The startups.com job, within a couple days. 511 00:16:56,365 --> 00:16:57,984 I think I've told you this before, like at first I'm so 512 00:16:57,984 --> 00:16:59,005 excited to be able to do that. 513 00:16:59,005 --> 00:16:59,755 'cause it's my passion. 514 00:16:59,755 --> 00:17:01,915 I, you know, I love building things, but after a few days 515 00:17:01,915 --> 00:17:04,194 I'm like, dude, this is really hard work and I'm not against 516 00:17:04,194 --> 00:17:07,014 hard work, but I'm like, but if I had to do this for the rest of 517 00:17:07,014 --> 00:17:08,609 my life, this would not be fun. 518 00:17:09,464 --> 00:17:10,665 This would not be fun. 519 00:17:10,665 --> 00:17:13,994 And so usually by the time that month elapses, which is 520 00:17:13,994 --> 00:17:16,905 my version of a vacation, um, I can't wait to get back to 521 00:17:16,905 --> 00:17:20,504 startups.com and I have so much more appreciation in my job. 522 00:17:21,074 --> 00:17:25,814 But, but, but I say that to say it helps me quantify the 523 00:17:25,814 --> 00:17:29,354 value of this job, the value of this sacrifice, because 524 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:32,504 I, I, I get to step away from it for a while and then, you 525 00:17:32,504 --> 00:17:34,844 know, kind of see it for the first time and then kind of 526 00:17:34,844 --> 00:17:37,875 come back to it and like, oh, damn, this was totally worth it. 527 00:17:38,610 --> 00:17:40,980 Which, I mean, just being able to step away from it is 528 00:17:40,980 --> 00:17:43,410 one of the, the, the payouts from the sacrifice, right? 529 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,240 The, the fact that you built a business, you can step 530 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:45,900 away from for a minute, 531 00:17:46,170 --> 00:17:48,780 but I wanna talk about fearing the goal a little bit because 532 00:17:48,780 --> 00:17:52,260 I, I think that's fascinating to me because I, I've dealt 533 00:17:52,260 --> 00:17:54,300 with it quite a bit and I certainly see it with other 534 00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:56,700 founders fearing the goal that, the way I would define 535 00:17:56,700 --> 00:17:57,720 it looks something like this. 536 00:17:58,170 --> 00:18:00,625 It either means you never really defined the goal. 537 00:18:01,274 --> 00:18:03,615 So, and, and maybe subconsciously you didn't 538 00:18:03,615 --> 00:18:05,685 really define what your end game goals were because you were 539 00:18:05,685 --> 00:18:07,004 afraid of what they might be. 540 00:18:07,455 --> 00:18:09,345 Uh, either too small, too big, whatever. 541 00:18:09,885 --> 00:18:12,825 Or the other side of it is you named something Bel Air 542 00:18:12,825 --> 00:18:16,065 House, that when it came to fruition, wound up being a bust. 543 00:18:16,395 --> 00:18:18,315 That's even more terrifying because you 544 00:18:18,315 --> 00:18:20,055 were so sure that was it. 545 00:18:20,325 --> 00:18:21,165 And then you got there. 546 00:18:21,165 --> 00:18:22,845 It's just what you said about the founder with the exit. 547 00:18:23,264 --> 00:18:24,840 Every founder thinks the exit's the answer. 548 00:18:25,754 --> 00:18:28,500 Once I get exit, everything gets better, everything 549 00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:29,235 will be different, everything will be better. 550 00:18:29,235 --> 00:18:30,735 And then always become depress depressed after 551 00:18:30,735 --> 00:18:33,105 having done it because they lost their sense of purpose. 552 00:18:33,105 --> 00:18:36,075 They, you name it, the list go whole episodes dedicated 553 00:18:36,075 --> 00:18:37,514 to to the after effect. 554 00:18:37,754 --> 00:18:40,095 And I guess what I'm saying there is what's interesting 555 00:18:40,095 --> 00:18:43,274 to me about folks who, with a lack of, of defined 556 00:18:43,274 --> 00:18:46,365 goals, is they have no way to calibrate the sacrifice. 557 00:18:46,485 --> 00:18:49,665 For example, if your ultimate goal, Ryan, was 558 00:18:49,665 --> 00:18:51,585 to just go to Madrid. 559 00:18:51,855 --> 00:18:54,825 Forget all the job benefits, right? 560 00:18:54,915 --> 00:18:56,775 Of what we do and our freedom and stuff like that. 561 00:18:56,925 --> 00:18:57,885 Just, just to get there. 562 00:18:58,215 --> 00:19:00,285 There'd be a million paths that you could go on that 563 00:19:00,285 --> 00:19:02,145 wouldn't, ma wouldn't require any sacrifice. 564 00:19:02,145 --> 00:19:04,754 You could literally just get a job in Madrid and 565 00:19:04,754 --> 00:19:05,655 accomplish that goal. 566 00:19:06,045 --> 00:19:08,055 But your goals aren't that subtle, right? 567 00:19:08,055 --> 00:19:08,745 Or specific. 568 00:19:08,745 --> 00:19:09,945 In this case, they're broader. 569 00:19:10,155 --> 00:19:11,385 You not just wanna be there. 570 00:19:11,475 --> 00:19:14,264 You wanna have the freedom, you want to have, um, 571 00:19:14,325 --> 00:19:15,885 enough cash to be able to do the things you wanna do. 572 00:19:15,885 --> 00:19:17,055 You know, you're not living in a hobble. 573 00:19:17,205 --> 00:19:18,345 There's a lot more to it. 574 00:19:18,615 --> 00:19:20,745 And those things require, uh, sacrifice. 575 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:22,680 And execution, all those things. 576 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,620 And I think about that and I'm like, if you don't know 577 00:19:25,620 --> 00:19:28,050 exactly what those things are though, like all of those 578 00:19:28,050 --> 00:19:31,409 things that are important to you, then you're many cases 579 00:19:31,409 --> 00:19:33,510 gonna over sacrifice you. 580 00:19:33,510 --> 00:19:36,000 You're gonna like invest too much for shit you don't need 581 00:19:36,540 --> 00:19:37,230 for stuff you don't need. 582 00:19:37,409 --> 00:19:37,710 Yeah. 583 00:19:37,770 --> 00:19:38,730 Or invest the wrong way. 584 00:19:38,879 --> 00:19:39,149 Right. 585 00:19:39,149 --> 00:19:40,470 You're gonna, you're gonna push towards things that 586 00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:42,810 you didn't absolutely need and, and forego others that 587 00:19:42,810 --> 00:19:43,649 you, you would've enjoyed. 588 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:44,250 Yeah. 589 00:19:44,250 --> 00:19:46,950 I feel like, you know, in, in the founder space that. 590 00:19:47,534 --> 00:19:51,044 Ambiguity is, is ambitions, comfort food, right? 591 00:19:51,135 --> 00:19:54,235 The, the idea that if we keep the goals amorphous, love that. 592 00:19:54,235 --> 00:19:54,264 I love that. 593 00:19:54,555 --> 00:19:57,435 That we can just sort of like, just keep going. 594 00:19:57,435 --> 00:19:59,264 Keep it like we can just keep feeding the beast that we 595 00:19:59,264 --> 00:20:01,725 know how to feed, uh, without really having to answer these 596 00:20:01,725 --> 00:20:05,355 questions and face the fear of the payout, the what if, right? 597 00:20:05,355 --> 00:20:06,195 Like right. 598 00:20:06,195 --> 00:20:09,254 Because with the fuzzy goal, we, we, we can't be disappointed. 599 00:20:09,645 --> 00:20:12,135 The challenge comes right to your point, like you didn't 600 00:20:12,135 --> 00:20:13,935 know exactly which house, but you sort of thought there was 601 00:20:13,935 --> 00:20:17,085 some version of this thing that you wanted to do, and so you, 602 00:20:17,090 --> 00:20:18,375 you couldn't be disappointed. 603 00:20:18,645 --> 00:20:20,895 But then when you get there and you realize now does come 604 00:20:20,895 --> 00:20:23,355 time for this very specific moment, like leading up to it, 605 00:20:23,355 --> 00:20:25,035 it was just like, I'll just chase, I'll chase, I'll chase. 606 00:20:25,035 --> 00:20:25,275 Right? 607 00:20:25,485 --> 00:20:27,165 Feed the ambition, feed the ambition, feed the ambition. 608 00:20:27,375 --> 00:20:29,415 When it comes time to eat that meal, and you just go, 609 00:20:29,415 --> 00:20:30,735 I actually don't want this. 610 00:20:30,795 --> 00:20:32,235 We also can't be satisfied. 611 00:20:32,235 --> 00:20:34,215 So I think that's the, the real danger. 612 00:20:34,605 --> 00:20:38,415 Around giving into the fear of some level of definition. 613 00:20:38,415 --> 00:20:38,925 Is that right? 614 00:20:38,925 --> 00:20:41,775 We, we can't be disappointed by a fuzzy goal, but we also 615 00:20:41,925 --> 00:20:42,945 can't be satisfied by it. 616 00:20:43,185 --> 00:20:43,965 Let's stick with that. 617 00:20:44,115 --> 00:20:46,965 That's why when we say founders selling their company, 618 00:20:46,965 --> 00:20:48,670 getting the exit, which everybody thinks is the goal. 619 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,660 They get it and then they're pissed off about it. 620 00:20:51,810 --> 00:20:54,210 Uh, and again, just for folks that, that weren't familiar with 621 00:20:54,210 --> 00:20:57,210 this, this the episodes we've done about this, that the high 622 00:20:57,210 --> 00:21:00,960 level version is we sell our company and we lose our purpose. 623 00:21:01,110 --> 00:21:03,810 And we realized at that moment how much our purpose 624 00:21:03,810 --> 00:21:05,820 was, was worthwhile to us and then it's too late. 625 00:21:06,210 --> 00:21:08,190 Our purpose being what we were building, that company, 626 00:21:08,190 --> 00:21:10,500 our relationships with people, how we were getting 627 00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:12,720 up in the morning, we knew exactly what to do, et cetera. 628 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,780 When you overnight strip all that away and you're 629 00:21:15,780 --> 00:21:17,190 like, but it doesn't matter 'cause now I don't have to 630 00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:18,360 worry 'cause I have money. 631 00:21:18,575 --> 00:21:20,645 And now you have no reason to go. 632 00:21:20,705 --> 00:21:22,205 You have no purpose in many cases. 633 00:21:22,205 --> 00:21:23,794 And people be like, oh, well I'll have purpose. 634 00:21:23,794 --> 00:21:25,235 I'll do charity, I'll do this. 635 00:21:25,235 --> 00:21:26,315 I'll, I'll work out a lot. 636 00:21:26,315 --> 00:21:27,210 I'll like, dude, yeah. 637 00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:27,570 Try it. 638 00:21:27,570 --> 00:21:28,370 Lemme how this, there'll be 639 00:21:28,370 --> 00:21:29,290 high quality problems. 640 00:21:29,405 --> 00:21:30,065 Yeah, yeah, 641 00:21:30,065 --> 00:21:30,514 yeah, yeah. 642 00:21:30,514 --> 00:21:31,264 It's a problem. 643 00:21:31,294 --> 00:21:33,125 Um, and you'll be talking to your therapist about it. 644 00:21:33,335 --> 00:21:36,995 My point is, it's one of those cases where when we define that 645 00:21:36,995 --> 00:21:40,445 goal that I want exit, so I have money, so I have options. 646 00:21:40,445 --> 00:21:41,315 Totally get that part. 647 00:21:41,315 --> 00:21:41,435 Yeah. 648 00:21:41,879 --> 00:21:42,540 Then what? 649 00:21:42,545 --> 00:21:42,665 Right. 650 00:21:42,665 --> 00:21:44,400 What comes after that goal? 651 00:21:44,940 --> 00:21:47,220 No one thinks about what comes after that goal. 652 00:21:47,490 --> 00:21:49,260 It's because we're so, we're working so hard 653 00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:50,100 just to get there. 654 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:50,490 Right? 655 00:21:50,490 --> 00:21:51,780 We don't plan that far ahead. 656 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,450 But what happens is when we don't plan any further 657 00:21:54,450 --> 00:21:56,940 than that goal, we never play out that exercise. 658 00:21:57,285 --> 00:21:58,995 We never say, I wanna get to an exit. 659 00:21:59,085 --> 00:21:59,805 Okay, cool. 660 00:21:59,805 --> 00:22:01,185 And we talk to founders about this all the time. 661 00:22:01,275 --> 00:22:01,725 Awesome. 662 00:22:01,935 --> 00:22:03,255 If that's what you want, great. 663 00:22:03,405 --> 00:22:05,925 But let's talk about what's going to happen after that exit. 664 00:22:06,285 --> 00:22:06,375 Yep. 665 00:22:06,375 --> 00:22:09,855 And make sure that those things are actually what you want. 666 00:22:10,395 --> 00:22:12,255 And once happen, then once we start chipping away at 667 00:22:12,255 --> 00:22:15,015 'em, they're like, huh, I really would've nothing to do. 668 00:22:15,075 --> 00:22:16,275 You could always say, I'll start another company, 669 00:22:16,275 --> 00:22:17,925 which is what everybody does for this exact reason. 670 00:22:18,255 --> 00:22:20,325 Or, or you're like, well, you know, a big part of 671 00:22:20,325 --> 00:22:21,315 my social life maybe. 672 00:22:21,705 --> 00:22:24,495 Was wrapped up in, in, in running a company, um, either 673 00:22:24,615 --> 00:22:26,805 explicitly with like, these are people that I hang out with 674 00:22:26,805 --> 00:22:28,065 and we go get drinks together. 675 00:22:28,365 --> 00:22:30,975 Or implicitly, like, I have a lot more to talk about 676 00:22:30,975 --> 00:22:32,685 with a lot more people 'cause we have the commonality of 677 00:22:32,685 --> 00:22:33,705 being founders or whatever. 678 00:22:34,185 --> 00:22:37,275 And I think what's interesting about that is when you 679 00:22:37,275 --> 00:22:38,655 play these goals out. 680 00:22:39,210 --> 00:22:40,860 When you really kind of play these goals out, 681 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,590 they're not always exactly what people wanted or they 682 00:22:43,590 --> 00:22:44,880 don't solve the problems. 683 00:22:44,910 --> 00:22:46,170 Rarely are they what people wanted. 684 00:22:46,230 --> 00:22:46,830 Isn't that weird? 685 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:47,520 It is. 686 00:22:48,060 --> 00:22:50,760 You know, something that's really funny about everything 687 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,210 we talk about here is that none of it is new. 688 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,030 Everything you're dealing with right now has been done a 689 00:22:57,030 --> 00:23:00,870 thousand times before you, which means the answer already exists. 690 00:23:00,870 --> 00:23:01,740 You may just not know it. 691 00:23:01,970 --> 00:23:02,750 But that's okay. 692 00:23:03,110 --> 00:23:04,940 That's kind of what we're here to do. 693 00:23:04,940 --> 00:23:07,580 We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually 694 00:23:07,580 --> 00:23:11,720 solve these problems all dayLong@groups.startups.com. 695 00:23:11,810 --> 00:23:15,080 So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing 696 00:23:15,140 --> 00:23:18,110 about what to do, let us just give you the answers to the 697 00:23:18,110 --> 00:23:19,460 test and be done with it. 698 00:23:19,820 --> 00:23:22,130 It sparked another thought though, which is, was there a 699 00:23:22,130 --> 00:23:24,680 point at which this happened to you or you realized 700 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:25,700 this was happening to you? 701 00:23:26,235 --> 00:23:28,725 You were avoiding precision around the goal. 702 00:23:28,725 --> 00:23:31,125 Yeah, because you actually didn't want the answer. 703 00:23:31,455 --> 00:23:31,995 They came in 704 00:23:31,995 --> 00:23:34,635 a different way and this happened maybe Brian, maybe 705 00:23:34,635 --> 00:23:35,745 in the last year or so. 706 00:23:35,865 --> 00:23:37,995 I think maybe in the last year or so, for the first 707 00:23:37,995 --> 00:23:41,685 time in my life, I realize there's things I don't want, 708 00:23:42,195 --> 00:23:44,475 and I don't want that to sound like this privileged first 709 00:23:44,505 --> 00:23:47,655 world problem because it's, it was really disappointing. 710 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,190 Decided I didn't need the third Bentley. 711 00:23:50,250 --> 00:23:51,480 Exactly, exactly right. 712 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,010 I had so much, you know? 713 00:23:53,010 --> 00:23:54,810 Yeah, no, nothing like that. 714 00:23:55,050 --> 00:23:59,550 A big part of what drove my ambition was not having shit. 715 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:00,600 Yeah. 716 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,140 A big part of that need was because I didn't have it. 717 00:24:04,260 --> 00:24:04,470 Right. 718 00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:06,240 And I've, I, I've said this before, I said, you know, 719 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,130 the value of anything is the fact that you don't have it. 720 00:24:08,370 --> 00:24:11,640 But once you do, it drops value, you know, uh, exponentially. 721 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:13,260 Immediately. 722 00:24:13,350 --> 00:24:15,810 And so I say that to say for the first time in my life, 723 00:24:16,020 --> 00:24:19,650 all those big honking goals that I had just started 724 00:24:19,650 --> 00:24:21,840 to be like, I actually don't want those things. 725 00:24:22,170 --> 00:24:24,720 I want the idea of wanting, I'll give an example, right? 726 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:25,495 I do not want a yacht. 727 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,470 Now most people are like, oh, well you know, how could 728 00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:30,570 you not want a yacht or like, you know, who cares? 729 00:24:30,570 --> 00:24:31,320 That's ridiculous. 730 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:32,189 I don't give a shit. 731 00:24:32,250 --> 00:24:34,409 What I'm saying is like I actually don't enjoy boats 732 00:24:34,409 --> 00:24:36,689 whatsoever and I'm anti boat. 733 00:24:36,750 --> 00:24:36,929 Right. 734 00:24:36,929 --> 00:24:37,830 If you've got a boat, let's get on it. 735 00:24:37,835 --> 00:24:38,879 You use it four times as I recall. 736 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:39,330 Yeah. 737 00:24:39,330 --> 00:24:42,689 But I have no interest whatsoever in being yacht guy. 738 00:24:42,899 --> 00:24:44,850 I respect somebody else for being yacht guy. 739 00:24:44,879 --> 00:24:46,800 I don't wanna be ya guy right now. 740 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,550 When I say that, that means I'm taking some big 741 00:24:50,790 --> 00:24:53,340 further goal that would otherwise require lots of 742 00:24:53,340 --> 00:24:54,435 extra sacrifice to get to. 743 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,850 Off the table for a decade. 744 00:24:56,850 --> 00:24:58,230 We had two homes, right? 745 00:24:58,230 --> 00:24:59,790 We had one in Ohio, we one in California. 746 00:25:00,060 --> 00:25:02,430 I have no desire to have a second home. 747 00:25:02,430 --> 00:25:04,710 I don't even have a 1% desire to have a second home. 748 00:25:04,860 --> 00:25:06,600 I hated having two homes, right? 749 00:25:06,810 --> 00:25:08,250 It was a giant pain in the ass. 750 00:25:08,430 --> 00:25:10,860 But when I say that, I, I'm, I feel fortunate that, 751 00:25:10,860 --> 00:25:12,210 that I had that experience. 752 00:25:12,615 --> 00:25:14,445 But I can also tell you, I don't ever wanna do that again. 753 00:25:14,745 --> 00:25:17,115 That takes a huge, you know, uh, thing off the table. 754 00:25:17,325 --> 00:25:17,805 Huge. 755 00:25:17,985 --> 00:25:20,685 And I, I think it comes from these places so often, right? 756 00:25:20,685 --> 00:25:22,845 Like in your case it came from, from not having and then 757 00:25:22,845 --> 00:25:25,875 wanting to have, and then we forget that we can shift outta 758 00:25:25,875 --> 00:25:27,465 that gear at some point, right? 759 00:25:27,465 --> 00:25:29,805 When it's just like, didn't have, and just like, so the 760 00:25:29,805 --> 00:25:32,265 answer to that is, again, it's, it's have more, it's funny. 761 00:25:32,325 --> 00:25:32,565 Yeah. 762 00:25:32,655 --> 00:25:33,945 I don't want a second home right now. 763 00:25:34,215 --> 00:25:38,115 What I do want is a big table somewhere. 764 00:25:38,504 --> 00:25:40,995 It's not gonna fit in my Madrid apartment, right? 765 00:25:40,995 --> 00:25:41,504 It is not. 766 00:25:41,595 --> 00:25:44,115 There's no room in this place for a big table. 767 00:25:44,264 --> 00:25:45,190 What's a big table look like? 768 00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:47,055 I realized the other day, one of the things I do miss is 769 00:25:47,055 --> 00:25:50,024 a big outdoor table uhhuh, where I can gather a bunch of 770 00:25:50,024 --> 00:25:52,185 friends, I can cook some good food, and we can sit down and 771 00:25:52,185 --> 00:25:53,235 have a nice meal together. 772 00:25:53,475 --> 00:25:54,675 And so at some point. 773 00:25:55,574 --> 00:25:57,615 I want a big table again, but like, it's a pretty 774 00:25:57,615 --> 00:25:59,054 simple flipping goal, right? 775 00:25:59,054 --> 00:25:59,145 Right. 776 00:25:59,145 --> 00:26:00,375 Like, I don't need, I don't need, like, I 777 00:26:00,375 --> 00:26:01,754 don't need miles of land. 778 00:26:01,754 --> 00:26:04,245 I need like, you know, a a a couple hundred meters and 779 00:26:04,245 --> 00:26:06,254 uh, and a big table outside somewhere that I can get to 780 00:26:06,254 --> 00:26:09,405 within a, a reasonable amount of time and go and cook over fire. 781 00:26:09,405 --> 00:26:12,554 Whatever it is I like to do out there that I want, I do, I still 782 00:26:12,554 --> 00:26:15,465 want that, but like, yep, that's insanely achievable, right? 783 00:26:15,465 --> 00:26:16,965 That's not, I don't need an exit for that. 784 00:26:17,145 --> 00:26:17,475 I need. 785 00:26:18,015 --> 00:26:20,175 He'd probably had a plan for three weeks and then figure that 786 00:26:20,175 --> 00:26:20,325 out. 787 00:26:21,285 --> 00:26:21,375 Yeah. 788 00:26:21,376 --> 00:26:23,625 Well, okay, so, but this is what I mean by by that fear though. 789 00:26:23,655 --> 00:26:24,345 The fear of the goal. 790 00:26:24,405 --> 00:26:24,585 Yeah. 791 00:26:24,675 --> 00:26:27,795 Once I started taking things off of my list, my fear started 792 00:26:27,795 --> 00:26:28,695 to go the other direction. 793 00:26:28,905 --> 00:26:32,115 I'm like, well, if I take my wants off the list, doesn't 794 00:26:32,115 --> 00:26:33,315 my ambition go with that? 795 00:26:33,465 --> 00:26:35,955 If you don't have a bunch of, you know, big ticket items 796 00:26:35,955 --> 00:26:38,145 or, you know, whatever your, your, your list is, I'm just, 797 00:26:38,205 --> 00:26:39,285 I'm naming random stuff. 798 00:26:39,405 --> 00:26:42,255 Then all of a sudden, aren't you, ambitionless are like, 799 00:26:42,255 --> 00:26:44,415 isn't the the best person, the old school, Gordon 800 00:26:44,415 --> 00:26:46,485 Gecko, that you know, the only answer to more is more. 801 00:26:47,295 --> 00:26:51,105 And I'm like, I ran that path for a very long time. 802 00:26:51,435 --> 00:26:55,155 Long enough to know that it is soulless at best 803 00:26:55,305 --> 00:26:56,805 and destructive at worst. 804 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:57,675 Yeah, yeah, for sure. 805 00:26:57,945 --> 00:27:02,415 Every time I got thing it became exponentially of less value 806 00:27:02,775 --> 00:27:04,365 than the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. 807 00:27:04,365 --> 00:27:07,515 We've talked about this before and I think I started to fear 808 00:27:07,515 --> 00:27:10,485 that part, Ryan, I started to fear that like, what if I hit 809 00:27:10,485 --> 00:27:12,825 this threshold where there's just nothing else I want? 810 00:27:13,065 --> 00:27:14,355 Do I lose all my ambition? 811 00:27:14,355 --> 00:27:17,475 Does my superpower of of ambition directly 812 00:27:17,475 --> 00:27:19,635 correlate to having random shit that I don't need? 813 00:27:19,950 --> 00:27:22,440 As we get older and wiser, we start to realize we can have 814 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,440 more of certain things that, that don't come at the cost 815 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:26,880 of, of other types of things. 816 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:26,970 Right? 817 00:27:26,975 --> 00:27:27,065 Right. 818 00:27:27,070 --> 00:27:30,000 More houses comes at a cost more impact to startup founders. 819 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,770 Doesn't necessarily, and you and I are both highly 820 00:27:31,770 --> 00:27:32,880 motivated by that, right? 821 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,560 We're still very ambitious in terms of wanting 822 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,510 to solve problems for, for, for our people. 823 00:27:36,750 --> 00:27:38,730 And so I think that at some point you do start to just 824 00:27:38,730 --> 00:27:40,560 kind of shift what, what some of those things look 825 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,370 like and the the, the payoff starts to look very different. 826 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,700 Right, and, and the sacrifice start to balance out a period 827 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,250 we have to ask, is the payout worth it? 828 00:27:50,850 --> 00:27:53,370 And I think maybe the scariest thing is being 829 00:27:53,370 --> 00:27:54,630 confronted with that answer. 830 00:27:54,900 --> 00:27:55,650 I'll give you an example. 831 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,530 Before I started, uh, my first company, I used to 832 00:27:58,530 --> 00:27:59,580 work for a big law firm. 833 00:28:00,195 --> 00:28:01,485 Called Jones Day Re and po. 834 00:28:01,605 --> 00:28:02,235 Mm-hmm. 835 00:28:02,715 --> 00:28:03,315 Know them well. 836 00:28:03,495 --> 00:28:03,795 Yeah. 837 00:28:03,855 --> 00:28:06,405 And so, uh, I'm personally for the wrong reasons. 838 00:28:06,555 --> 00:28:06,735 Yeah. 839 00:28:08,085 --> 00:28:10,095 So I, I worked there at the lowest position you 840 00:28:10,095 --> 00:28:10,815 could possibly have. 841 00:28:10,815 --> 00:28:12,585 I was the backup receptionist. 842 00:28:12,795 --> 00:28:13,095 Okay. 843 00:28:13,485 --> 00:28:16,665 I'm 18 years old, just, just because I, I have 844 00:28:16,665 --> 00:28:17,685 to paint this portrait. 845 00:28:17,925 --> 00:28:22,605 This is like 1993 ish, you know, I got my dates right and because 846 00:28:22,605 --> 00:28:23,745 I didn't own a car back then. 847 00:28:24,385 --> 00:28:27,775 I used to get in my like three piece suit. 848 00:28:27,775 --> 00:28:30,115 Nobody wore three piece suits even back then, right? 849 00:28:30,205 --> 00:28:31,345 It was the only thing I could find a goodwill. 850 00:28:31,345 --> 00:28:31,645 I'm gonna stop 851 00:28:32,395 --> 00:28:32,545 you. 852 00:28:32,695 --> 00:28:33,295 Please tell me. 853 00:28:33,295 --> 00:28:34,105 This involves roller 854 00:28:34,105 --> 00:28:34,345 blades. 855 00:28:34,435 --> 00:28:35,695 It involved roller blades. 856 00:28:35,755 --> 00:28:37,885 Not only did it involve roller blades, I was so 857 00:28:37,885 --> 00:28:39,115 late for business, right? 858 00:28:39,415 --> 00:28:43,735 It involved a a suit roller blades, a briefcase. 859 00:28:44,490 --> 00:28:47,070 You are that stock image that became I am the stock image. 860 00:28:47,159 --> 00:28:47,340 Right? 861 00:28:47,370 --> 00:28:48,090 Oh my gods. 862 00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:50,909 And for those of you that aren't following, there's a famous meme 863 00:28:50,909 --> 00:28:53,970 in stock image, uh, of a, of a businessman, rollerblading, and 864 00:28:53,970 --> 00:28:55,530 it says, I'm late for business. 865 00:28:55,740 --> 00:28:57,030 And I actually was that guy. 866 00:28:57,030 --> 00:28:59,940 So I was, I was way ahead of the curve anyway, so I would 867 00:28:59,940 --> 00:29:01,050 rollerblade to the shitty job. 868 00:29:01,230 --> 00:29:03,270 It was far away, by the way, like I was on campus. 869 00:29:03,270 --> 00:29:04,350 That was in downtown Columbus. 870 00:29:04,919 --> 00:29:07,020 Yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a good, a long, long knock. 871 00:29:07,230 --> 00:29:08,070 It's a good role. 872 00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:09,179 That's, that's a lot of role. 873 00:29:09,179 --> 00:29:11,970 But anyway, so I'd go to this job and, uh, every day I'm 874 00:29:11,970 --> 00:29:13,560 answering phones and I'm, I'm like, you know, kind 875 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,360 of like chatting with the attorneys and stuff like that. 876 00:29:15,690 --> 00:29:18,510 And on my last day there, the managing partner comes out. 877 00:29:18,510 --> 00:29:19,560 I didn't even know he knew who I was. 878 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,300 He's like one, like such a sweet guy. 879 00:29:21,899 --> 00:29:23,885 And, uh, he's like, Hey, will again, I didn't even 880 00:29:23,889 --> 00:29:24,840 know how he knew my name. 881 00:29:25,230 --> 00:29:26,820 He's like, uh, I heard it's your last day. 882 00:29:26,820 --> 00:29:27,090 Also. 883 00:29:27,090 --> 00:29:28,290 Not sure how he knew that. 884 00:29:28,530 --> 00:29:30,004 He's like, would it be okay if I took you to lunch? 885 00:29:30,659 --> 00:29:32,970 I'm like, wow, that's the coolest thing I've ever heard. 886 00:29:32,970 --> 00:29:34,230 I mean like just such a cool move. 887 00:29:34,230 --> 00:29:36,540 That guy, you know, massive influence in what he was 888 00:29:36,540 --> 00:29:39,449 in and he took the time to take the fucking backup 889 00:29:39,449 --> 00:29:41,129 receptionist out to to lunch. 890 00:29:41,189 --> 00:29:41,550 Right. 891 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,350 The fact that he's a backup receptionist. 892 00:29:43,350 --> 00:29:43,770 Yeah, I know. 893 00:29:43,770 --> 00:29:44,310 I know, I know. 894 00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:45,449 And so, so we're at lunch. 895 00:29:45,990 --> 00:29:48,210 And we're talking about life and everything else like that. 896 00:29:48,210 --> 00:29:49,980 And I'm like 18, 19 years old. 897 00:29:50,430 --> 00:29:53,340 And I said to him, I said, Hey, I have to ask you like you are 898 00:29:53,340 --> 00:29:54,840 at the top of this food chain. 899 00:29:55,020 --> 00:29:55,710 Was it worth it? 900 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,170 Which in retrospect was like a pretty deep 901 00:29:58,170 --> 00:29:59,280 question to ask this guy. 902 00:29:59,400 --> 00:29:59,790 Yeah. 903 00:29:59,820 --> 00:30:00,090 Right. 904 00:30:00,090 --> 00:30:01,170 Who I don't even know. 905 00:30:01,230 --> 00:30:01,410 Right. 906 00:30:01,410 --> 00:30:03,630 But you know, me, I just, I just go all the way at all these 907 00:30:03,630 --> 00:30:09,180 questions and, uh, he paused and he was like, not really. 908 00:30:09,540 --> 00:30:12,175 And I thought that was like this incredibly honest answer. 909 00:30:13,065 --> 00:30:13,635 Great answer. 910 00:30:13,785 --> 00:30:14,775 And he says, honest answer. 911 00:30:14,775 --> 00:30:15,735 Here's, here's what he said to me. 912 00:30:15,735 --> 00:30:19,275 He said, well, when I go to Best Buy, I can 913 00:30:19,275 --> 00:30:20,625 now buy any TV I want. 914 00:30:20,685 --> 00:30:22,275 And I thought that was such a specific thing to say. 915 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:23,205 Right, right. 916 00:30:23,205 --> 00:30:23,295 This 917 00:30:23,295 --> 00:30:24,225 is also 1992. 918 00:30:24,230 --> 00:30:26,685 Clearly, clearly at some point he didn't have a tv. 919 00:30:26,685 --> 00:30:27,195 He wanted, 920 00:30:28,755 --> 00:30:28,875 I 921 00:30:28,875 --> 00:30:28,995 could 922 00:30:28,995 --> 00:30:31,270 buy any tube TV I want in the nicest VCR. 923 00:30:31,270 --> 00:30:31,430 Yes. 924 00:30:31,610 --> 00:30:35,205 And, but I remember he said that specifically, he said, 925 00:30:35,205 --> 00:30:38,745 but what it took to get that, you know, to be able to, to 926 00:30:38,895 --> 00:30:40,425 make that wasn't worth it. 927 00:30:40,740 --> 00:30:42,690 This is the guy that was the managing partner. 928 00:30:43,380 --> 00:30:43,620 Right? 929 00:30:43,620 --> 00:30:46,110 Like, like he was the guy. 930 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,540 Like that's a, and he was a young age. 931 00:30:48,540 --> 00:30:49,410 It wasn't He could have, right, right. 932 00:30:49,410 --> 00:30:50,640 There wasn't a bigger goal. 933 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,800 There wasn't a bigger payout that could have been had. 934 00:30:52,890 --> 00:30:53,310 Correct. 935 00:30:53,310 --> 00:30:54,450 He got the biggest payout 936 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,700 and I remember, and the sacrifice wasn't worth it when 937 00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:57,790 he said that, and I was like. 938 00:30:58,469 --> 00:31:01,560 How is that po I was expecting a totally different answer. 939 00:31:01,649 --> 00:31:01,889 Okay. 940 00:31:02,129 --> 00:31:04,770 I was expecting a hype video where he was like, well, son, 941 00:31:04,770 --> 00:31:06,929 now that you've asked, you know, in order to become blah. 942 00:31:06,929 --> 00:31:09,629 And like, I thought it was, and he was so honest, 943 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,520 and so clear and so kind. 944 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,189 And I was like, I, I'd never forgot that. 945 00:31:14,340 --> 00:31:15,510 I never forgot that. 946 00:31:16,110 --> 00:31:19,469 And over time, when I was looking at my goals and my 947 00:31:19,469 --> 00:31:22,830 sacrifices, I kept thinking, I don't wanna be that guy. 948 00:31:23,355 --> 00:31:27,795 Like, I'm so terrified of being at the top of my, my food chain 949 00:31:28,335 --> 00:31:29,715 in, in having that answer. 950 00:31:30,015 --> 00:31:33,615 And I, I think part of that for him, different era, different 951 00:31:33,615 --> 00:31:36,255 generation, et cetera, you weren't allowed to ask if 952 00:31:36,255 --> 00:31:37,125 the payout was worth it. 953 00:31:37,635 --> 00:31:39,170 It was like if you had the payout at all. 954 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:41,700 This is again, different generation 955 00:31:41,910 --> 00:31:42,180 Yeah. 956 00:31:42,180 --> 00:31:42,450 Than 957 00:31:42,450 --> 00:31:45,060 you didn't otherwise work in a factory, so go fuck yourself. 958 00:31:45,060 --> 00:31:45,690 That's your payout. 959 00:31:45,690 --> 00:31:45,870 Right? 960 00:31:45,870 --> 00:31:46,080 Right. 961 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,600 Like you didn't get the luxury of evaluating it 962 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:49,500 in quite the same way. 963 00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:52,140 Like he wasn't saying, Hey, it wasn't worth it and 964 00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:53,130 I'm gonna quit tomorrow. 965 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,220 He was like, yeah, it wasn't worth it and this is 966 00:31:56,220 --> 00:31:57,750 what I'm gonna do through the rest of my life, but 967 00:31:57,750 --> 00:31:58,560 this is what I've got now. 968 00:31:59,250 --> 00:32:01,110 Which to me felt like a death sentence. 969 00:32:01,740 --> 00:32:03,720 And so, um, a well paying death sentence. 970 00:32:03,765 --> 00:32:07,635 But, but my point is he did contemplate 971 00:32:07,635 --> 00:32:08,445 whether it was worth it. 972 00:32:08,655 --> 00:32:09,855 This guy did everything right. 973 00:32:09,855 --> 00:32:11,895 You know, top law schools, you know, obviously 974 00:32:11,895 --> 00:32:13,545 worked insane hours. 975 00:32:13,725 --> 00:32:16,305 His, I, I can't even quantify what his sacrifice must 976 00:32:16,305 --> 00:32:17,085 have been to get there. 977 00:32:17,505 --> 00:32:18,915 He probably can't either, right? 978 00:32:18,915 --> 00:32:19,010 Yeah, right. 979 00:32:19,425 --> 00:32:20,865 Trade offs don't come with receipts. 980 00:32:20,865 --> 00:32:21,375 X years. 981 00:32:21,375 --> 00:32:22,785 Why miss moments Z dollars? 982 00:32:23,535 --> 00:32:23,930 Think about right. 983 00:32:24,780 --> 00:32:26,639 He might be the only person that actually can, 'cause he 984 00:32:26,639 --> 00:32:27,899 had a timecard for all of that. 985 00:32:28,290 --> 00:32:28,590 He could. 986 00:32:28,590 --> 00:32:30,629 That's probably run report tell you exactly how many hours. 987 00:32:30,635 --> 00:32:31,004 That's true. 988 00:32:31,004 --> 00:32:31,024 That's true. 989 00:32:31,199 --> 00:32:36,120 But, but I guess like it's so rare that we are forced to stop 990 00:32:36,149 --> 00:32:38,250 and evaluate and calculate. 991 00:32:38,250 --> 00:32:38,310 Yeah. 992 00:32:38,850 --> 00:32:41,460 Whether this was worth it in the fear in all of us, 993 00:32:41,820 --> 00:32:43,169 just terrifies all of us. 994 00:32:43,169 --> 00:32:43,320 I know. 995 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,570 It does me is that we get to that moment 996 00:32:45,570 --> 00:32:46,350 and give that answer. 997 00:32:46,679 --> 00:32:48,840 Yeah, because man, winning, winning the wrong prize 998 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,689 is just another version of losing and, and the idea 999 00:32:51,689 --> 00:32:55,260 that we've, we've done all of this just to open that door 1000 00:32:55,260 --> 00:32:59,909 and like that's not what I wanted is it's terrifying. 1001 00:33:00,270 --> 00:33:02,100 You see this in many professions, it's 1002 00:33:02,100 --> 00:33:04,770 certainly not unique to, to being a founder, right? 1003 00:33:04,980 --> 00:33:08,100 That require a, a, a tremendous amount of sacrifice. 1004 00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:09,630 Lawyer's a great example, right? 1005 00:33:09,630 --> 00:33:12,150 Like it's, it's hard to get that far in a firm like that 1006 00:33:12,450 --> 00:33:15,180 and not kill yourself to do it at every possible level for 1007 00:33:15,180 --> 00:33:16,470 an extraordinarily long time. 1008 00:33:16,980 --> 00:33:18,210 Uh, doctors are the same way. 1009 00:33:18,300 --> 00:33:20,310 You know, the gauntlet that they have to go through just 1010 00:33:20,310 --> 00:33:22,080 to start practicing is bananas. 1011 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:23,400 But for founders. 1012 00:33:23,650 --> 00:33:25,450 What's different for us is we don't know if we're 1013 00:33:25,450 --> 00:33:26,260 gonna get paid at all. 1014 00:33:26,470 --> 00:33:30,520 What they're saying is lawyers, uh, doctors, et cetera, is, I 1015 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,770 don't know if it'll be worth it, but I'm going to get paid. 1016 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,320 Ours is, I don't know if it'll worth it, and I don't 1017 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,025 know if I'm gonna get paid and I don't have paid. 1018 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,650 Yeah, it's a double whammy. 1019 00:33:39,130 --> 00:33:41,200 Uh, we sound unreasonable when you say it that way. 1020 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:41,505 Will we sound? 1021 00:33:41,505 --> 00:33:41,785 What's that? 1022 00:33:41,890 --> 00:33:45,190 You're unreasonable, but let's talk about the 1023 00:33:45,250 --> 00:33:46,300 other side of the coin. 1024 00:33:46,390 --> 00:33:48,490 I wanna kind of wrap with this, this concept. 1025 00:33:48,790 --> 00:33:49,720 What if we did get it right? 1026 00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:51,910 What if after all of this sacrifice. 1027 00:33:52,260 --> 00:33:54,510 We have that moment, you know, you and Valencia, 1028 00:33:54,510 --> 00:33:57,720 me building my house where it's like, you know what, 1029 00:33:57,900 --> 00:33:59,910 this is pretty dope, right? 1030 00:33:59,940 --> 00:34:00,000 Yeah. 1031 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,460 Like this, uh, this worked out awfully well. 1032 00:34:02,820 --> 00:34:04,230 That's what we're hoping for. 1033 00:34:04,380 --> 00:34:05,910 I see it happen a lot less. 1034 00:34:05,910 --> 00:34:07,380 I think I fell into mine. 1035 00:34:07,740 --> 00:34:08,940 Do you feel like you're there now? 1036 00:34:08,940 --> 00:34:11,159 Do you feel like you have that alignment we were sacrificing 1037 00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:13,500 in your payoff have, I think so. 1038 00:34:13,710 --> 00:34:16,440 At, at the current state it feels like that, but this is 1039 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,780 still a very new, new part of the adventure for us. 1040 00:34:19,335 --> 00:34:21,915 We're at a pretty dynamic spot in terms of like where 1041 00:34:21,915 --> 00:34:24,045 the kids are at in life and all of that to kind of see 1042 00:34:24,045 --> 00:34:25,514 how, how that plays out. 1043 00:34:25,514 --> 00:34:28,425 'cause this, this leads to some, some big unknowns for us, right? 1044 00:34:28,425 --> 00:34:31,125 Which is like, we've now created these three little very 1045 00:34:31,125 --> 00:34:33,014 internationalized people, so. 1046 00:34:33,389 --> 00:34:36,840 What happens like as we get into our, and past our, our 1047 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,009 mid age into our older age? 1048 00:34:38,009 --> 00:34:39,270 Like, are they just gone? 1049 00:34:39,270 --> 00:34:40,199 Are they like, what have we done? 1050 00:34:40,205 --> 00:34:40,380 Right, right. 1051 00:34:40,380 --> 00:34:41,850 Is this for difficulties later? 1052 00:34:41,850 --> 00:34:43,830 Like, will that payoff be, be, be worth it? 1053 00:34:43,830 --> 00:34:47,520 But I think in terms of the balance we're looking for 1054 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,790 in life, the time freedom that we wanted, the ways to 1055 00:34:50,790 --> 00:34:54,900 enjoy our days, spend our time, and look for like daily 1056 00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:55,949 meaningful returns on that. 1057 00:34:56,810 --> 00:34:59,450 I can't imagine anything that had a better alignment right 1058 00:34:59,450 --> 00:35:00,740 now than, than what we're doing. 1059 00:35:01,190 --> 00:35:03,589 Um, and I think that's an important piece of this is 1060 00:35:03,589 --> 00:35:04,850 like, how do we turn that? 1061 00:35:04,940 --> 00:35:06,740 You know, when when you do find that alignment and I 1062 00:35:06,740 --> 00:35:08,569 think you, you end up being a bit more, I don't wanna 1063 00:35:08,569 --> 00:35:10,669 say reasonable, reasonable is the wrong word, but there's, 1064 00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:13,490 there's, I'm missing, I'm missing the, the vocabulary for 1065 00:35:13,490 --> 00:35:16,700 it, but this kind of alignment turns someday into today. 1066 00:35:17,475 --> 00:35:18,910 And I think, I think that that's a great way to put, 1067 00:35:18,910 --> 00:35:21,015 think that's important because, because if you were still like, 1068 00:35:21,015 --> 00:35:23,625 you know what, like building this house isn't enough. 1069 00:35:23,625 --> 00:35:25,754 I need to build a three times larger house. 1070 00:35:25,754 --> 00:35:26,685 I need to wait longer. 1071 00:35:26,685 --> 00:35:29,625 I need to sacrifice more so I can build a like, then it just 1072 00:35:29,625 --> 00:35:32,145 continues to stay someday. 1073 00:35:32,145 --> 00:35:34,095 And I think that there's really something to this, which is 1074 00:35:34,095 --> 00:35:38,234 like, for me, peace isn't purchased, it's specified. 1075 00:35:38,325 --> 00:35:38,714 Yeah. 1076 00:35:39,134 --> 00:35:39,404 Right. 1077 00:35:39,404 --> 00:35:41,654 Meaning that once I'm able to decide that like this 1078 00:35:41,654 --> 00:35:42,975 is actually the thing. 1079 00:35:43,425 --> 00:35:45,315 And it's, and it's what I want then, then this 1080 00:35:45,315 --> 00:35:46,395 is that, that's great. 1081 00:35:46,395 --> 00:35:46,575 Right? 1082 00:35:46,575 --> 00:35:49,785 Like for you, your goal wasn't jets. 1083 00:35:49,785 --> 00:35:51,495 It turned out to be a, a workshop. 1084 00:35:51,855 --> 00:35:53,905 This is where I, I wanna say like, I didn't, when I, I, 1085 00:35:53,955 --> 00:35:56,775 when I said reasonable, I don't mean that in terms of 1086 00:35:56,775 --> 00:35:58,875 it's smaller, it's truer. 1087 00:35:59,325 --> 00:36:02,955 It's more real to what, like you actually want to 1088 00:36:02,955 --> 00:36:04,425 do more fidelity to it. 1089 00:36:04,430 --> 00:36:04,570 Right. 1090 00:36:04,575 --> 00:36:06,045 It's, it, it's with reason. 1091 00:36:06,135 --> 00:36:06,225 Right. 1092 00:36:06,465 --> 00:36:07,410 With reason and purpose. 1093 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,465 It's with reason reasonable in that sense. 1094 00:36:09,465 --> 00:36:09,705 Right. 1095 00:36:09,705 --> 00:36:09,975 Yeah. 1096 00:36:09,975 --> 00:36:12,045 Not, not reasonable and like, oh, well that's achievable. 1097 00:36:12,345 --> 00:36:12,675 Right. 1098 00:36:12,825 --> 00:36:15,315 You know, if you can't buy the Ferrari, uh, you know, buy 1099 00:36:15,315 --> 00:36:18,105 the, the, the matchbox version, it's nearly the same thing. 1100 00:36:18,465 --> 00:36:18,945 Be satisfied. 1101 00:36:18,975 --> 00:36:20,055 It's, that's not it at all. 1102 00:36:20,115 --> 00:36:20,385 Yeah. 1103 00:36:20,415 --> 00:36:23,955 It was that when you got down to what was actually 1104 00:36:23,955 --> 00:36:26,775 going to move your needle, it turned out it was that. 1105 00:36:27,255 --> 00:36:27,585 Yeah. 1106 00:36:27,585 --> 00:36:29,925 And that alignment is super powerful. 1107 00:36:30,135 --> 00:36:31,365 It, I didn't see it coming. 1108 00:36:31,935 --> 00:36:34,155 So for folks listening, essentially what happened 1109 00:36:34,155 --> 00:36:36,405 was, uh, we ended up moving back to Ohio. 1110 00:36:36,525 --> 00:36:39,705 Uh, we were initially going to, uh, remodel our house, uh, 1111 00:36:39,705 --> 00:36:41,175 that we don't own for 20 years. 1112 00:36:41,415 --> 00:36:44,085 And as I started getting like the costs and like whatever, 1113 00:36:44,085 --> 00:36:46,185 and I said to my wife's, like, you know, for, for what it 1114 00:36:46,185 --> 00:36:48,975 would cost to remodel this whole house, we could just build a new 1115 00:36:48,975 --> 00:36:51,465 house and for the same amount of money, just have a new. 1116 00:36:52,020 --> 00:36:53,670 That was the last time that was true. 1117 00:36:54,030 --> 00:36:56,760 And so, yeah, I was gonna say, I feel like there may have 1118 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,730 been some scope creep somewhere along the Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1119 00:36:59,730 --> 00:37:00,810 An epic amount of scope creep. 1120 00:37:00,810 --> 00:37:03,180 So, but actually, but that all kind of ties into it. 1121 00:37:03,180 --> 00:37:04,380 So lemme just play this thought out. 1122 00:37:04,500 --> 00:37:06,930 I ended up going through this process where we find some land 1123 00:37:06,990 --> 00:37:08,250 and I start designing a house. 1124 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,780 You know, I learned 3D modeling. 1125 00:37:09,780 --> 00:37:12,240 So I learned how to design a house, uh, which was the 1126 00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:13,410 most dangerous part of this. 1127 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,150 'cause it cost nothing to draw a bigger box. 1128 00:37:16,710 --> 00:37:19,080 It's building the bigger box that, that, that it also 1129 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,700 takes some time to realize. 1130 00:37:21,420 --> 00:37:24,180 How big those boxes are in real life compared to what 1131 00:37:24,180 --> 00:37:25,560 they felt like in the 3D model. 1132 00:37:25,590 --> 00:37:27,150 I've experie, like when I showed you 1133 00:37:27,150 --> 00:37:30,330 the 3D model like four years ago and I was like, Hey Ryan, I 1134 00:37:30,330 --> 00:37:31,320 really wanna build this thing. 1135 00:37:31,500 --> 00:37:32,335 And then when you walked through it. 1136 00:37:32,670 --> 00:37:35,610 And you were like, damn, I'm in your 3D model. 1137 00:37:35,670 --> 00:37:36,000 Like it 1138 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:36,870 was, I'm in the 3D model. 1139 00:37:36,870 --> 00:37:39,210 Like, I literally, like, there was like, I, I knew which way 1140 00:37:39,210 --> 00:37:41,520 to turn when we walked from the living room to head like towards 1141 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,140 the workshop, I was like, I know exactly where we're going. 1142 00:37:43,145 --> 00:37:43,425 Know what? 1143 00:37:43,455 --> 00:37:43,745 I've 1144 00:37:43,745 --> 00:37:43,865 done this. 1145 00:37:43,865 --> 00:37:44,700 You know what, it's, you've been through this 1146 00:37:44,700 --> 00:37:45,720 fir first person shooter. 1147 00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:46,140 Before 1148 00:37:46,260 --> 00:37:48,810 it was, I literally, I had an Xbox controller in 1149 00:37:48,810 --> 00:37:50,910 my hand and I was, I was navigating your home with that. 1150 00:37:50,910 --> 00:37:53,010 So it did feel weird app to use my feet, but I'll get over. 1151 00:37:53,010 --> 00:37:53,130 Yeah. 1152 00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:57,300 There's a, um, uh, this is the most bizarre side, but, 1153 00:37:57,330 --> 00:37:59,850 uh, maybe you'll appreciate this in the game fallout 1154 00:37:59,850 --> 00:38:01,650 for, for the gamers of you out there, Uhhuh, right. 1155 00:38:01,830 --> 00:38:05,070 One of the Fallout series takes you to a resort called 1156 00:38:05,070 --> 00:38:07,920 Greenbriar, and I think it's the open world fallout, if 1157 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,120 I'm not, not mistaken, right? 1158 00:38:09,390 --> 00:38:12,090 But they, they, uh, Greenbriar is a resort in West Virginia. 1159 00:38:12,570 --> 00:38:13,740 I've been to the Real Green Briar. 1160 00:38:13,770 --> 00:38:16,500 I have not been to the, the Fallout version, but now 1161 00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:17,610 I'm super excited because. 1162 00:38:18,135 --> 00:38:19,425 There is a nuclear shelter there. 1163 00:38:19,425 --> 00:38:20,025 That's why it's there. 1164 00:38:20,030 --> 00:38:20,685 There is, right. 1165 00:38:20,685 --> 00:38:23,775 And, and so, uh, in the game they turned Greenbriar into 1166 00:38:23,775 --> 00:38:24,975 like, it doesn't matter. 1167 00:38:24,975 --> 00:38:26,865 But point is when I went to Greenbrier for the 1168 00:38:26,865 --> 00:38:29,295 first time, I actually knew where everything was. 1169 00:38:29,295 --> 00:38:30,465 'cause I had played the game. 1170 00:38:30,795 --> 00:38:31,005 Right? 1171 00:38:31,005 --> 00:38:31,785 It was bizarre. 1172 00:38:31,785 --> 00:38:34,425 I mean, it wasn't one for one, but it funny was pretty close. 1173 00:38:34,425 --> 00:38:35,985 Anyway, huge engine. 1174 00:38:36,015 --> 00:38:37,785 Um, but you're welcome Fallout fans. 1175 00:38:38,175 --> 00:38:39,945 So we get to the point where like, you know, I'm, I'm kinda 1176 00:38:39,945 --> 00:38:42,165 like, you know, designing this house or whatever, and something 1177 00:38:42,165 --> 00:38:44,115 really interesting happens. 1178 00:38:44,595 --> 00:38:46,605 I start to realize that this is what I wanted. 1179 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,299 It wasn't, here's what it is. 1180 00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:49,799 I didn't wanna buy a house. 1181 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:51,390 I wanted to create a house. 1182 00:38:52,110 --> 00:38:54,990 I, I wanted to create something where every single thing 1183 00:38:54,990 --> 00:38:55,950 had my fingerprint on it. 1184 00:38:56,130 --> 00:38:58,710 I wanted to design every square inch of the house myself. 1185 00:38:59,010 --> 00:39:02,790 I wanted to pick out every last thing from like the, 1186 00:39:02,850 --> 00:39:05,580 the timber grid of wood we're gonna use to the quality of 1187 00:39:05,580 --> 00:39:06,540 hinge we're gonna use, right? 1188 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:07,590 Every single thing. 1189 00:39:07,645 --> 00:39:08,235 Every single thing. 1190 00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:10,290 But I also wanted to build it with my hands, right? 1191 00:39:10,470 --> 00:39:10,710 And so. 1192 00:39:11,285 --> 00:39:14,705 About a year ago, give or take, I'm driving to the job site. 1193 00:39:14,765 --> 00:39:16,685 It's freezing outside, right? 1194 00:39:16,685 --> 00:39:17,825 It's, we're in Ohio. 1195 00:39:17,855 --> 00:39:20,135 It's like, it, it couldn't have been more than 1196 00:39:20,135 --> 00:39:21,815 like 15 degrees outside. 1197 00:39:22,145 --> 00:39:24,785 I'm in my pickup truck, I'm driving out to the job site and 1198 00:39:24,785 --> 00:39:27,635 I'm gonna go, um, run speaker cable long before you're ever 1199 00:39:27,635 --> 00:39:28,775 supposed to run speaker cable. 1200 00:39:29,135 --> 00:39:30,995 And I've got the biggest smile on my face. 1201 00:39:31,355 --> 00:39:33,095 It's like six 30 in the morning. 1202 00:39:33,095 --> 00:39:36,125 It's cold and dark outside and I've got a huge smile 1203 00:39:36,125 --> 00:39:38,975 on my face and I just, I just noticed it while it was 1204 00:39:38,975 --> 00:39:40,505 happening and I was like. 1205 00:39:40,990 --> 00:39:42,430 What is wrong with me? 1206 00:39:42,730 --> 00:39:45,580 I'm like any rational person on a Saturday at six 30 in 1207 00:39:45,580 --> 00:39:47,950 the morning, at the very least would be sleeping, but the 1208 00:39:47,950 --> 00:39:50,740 last thing they would be doing is racing to a construction 1209 00:39:50,740 --> 00:39:53,440 site to go put speaker cable up when there's not even 1210 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:54,520 a roof on the house yet. 1211 00:39:54,670 --> 00:39:58,060 But I realized this is what I've always wanted to do. 1212 00:39:58,140 --> 00:39:59,160 Is what you wanna do. 1213 00:39:59,160 --> 00:39:59,339 Right? 1214 00:39:59,339 --> 00:40:01,259 Like that's, I'll never forget, I'm sitting in the 1215 00:40:01,259 --> 00:40:04,140 cab of my truck by myself and I'm freezing and I'm thinking 1216 00:40:04,140 --> 00:40:06,240 to myself, this is insane. 1217 00:40:06,690 --> 00:40:08,640 But Bel Air wasn't what I wanted. 1218 00:40:08,910 --> 00:40:09,270 Right? 1219 00:40:09,750 --> 00:40:12,390 Bel Air was status, and status is seductive. 1220 00:40:12,629 --> 00:40:12,810 Yeah. 1221 00:40:12,810 --> 00:40:15,180 But it was the craft of doing it yourself that actually 1222 00:40:15,180 --> 00:40:16,109 actually satisfied you. 1223 00:40:16,634 --> 00:40:18,345 It's, it's such an amazing finding. 1224 00:40:18,555 --> 00:40:20,924 It's been this amazing journey for, uh, for me and, you know, 1225 00:40:20,924 --> 00:40:23,565 if, for those of you that know me and have had to listen to me 1226 00:40:23,565 --> 00:40:25,875 drone on about this thing for the last couple years, thank 1227 00:40:25,875 --> 00:40:27,105 you for your, your service. 1228 00:40:27,165 --> 00:40:30,075 But like, I, honestly, I finally found something 1229 00:40:30,075 --> 00:40:31,455 that, that was worthy. 1230 00:40:31,830 --> 00:40:32,850 Of the sacrifice. 1231 00:40:32,970 --> 00:40:34,920 This gave me some funding to do what I wanted. 1232 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,230 It gave me the, the, the freedom to do what I wanted. 1233 00:40:37,350 --> 00:40:40,260 There was just everything finally paid off in a way 1234 00:40:40,260 --> 00:40:43,290 that for the first time in my life, I actually felt 1235 00:40:43,410 --> 00:40:44,820 like it was a full payout. 1236 00:40:44,850 --> 00:40:48,870 Like I was, yeah, I was fully aligned with my sacrifice. 1237 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,750 And Ryan, it was a huge sigh of relief. 1238 00:40:52,140 --> 00:40:53,040 All of a sudden, you realize like. 1239 00:40:53,625 --> 00:40:56,415 That decision I didn't make, it wasn't actually 1240 00:40:56,415 --> 00:40:57,285 the thing, right? 1241 00:40:57,285 --> 00:41:00,254 It's the things that I'm doing now that, that are the thing. 1242 00:41:00,645 --> 00:41:00,884 Can you 1243 00:41:00,884 --> 00:41:04,365 imagine, Ryan, if someone like 32 years ago was like, Hey, 1244 00:41:04,365 --> 00:41:08,085 will, one day if you sacrifice everything and give up all of 1245 00:41:08,085 --> 00:41:10,725 your relationships, you'll be able to drive your construction 1246 00:41:10,725 --> 00:41:11,475 site, come a contractor 1247 00:41:11,475 --> 00:41:13,305 on your own construction site, right? 1248 00:41:13,935 --> 00:41:15,254 Like, wait, you never saw 1249 00:41:15,254 --> 00:41:15,915 that coming? 1250 00:41:16,185 --> 00:41:18,194 But man, like, you know, I'm a obsessive carpenter, 1251 00:41:18,194 --> 00:41:20,415 so like I, I got to build. 1252 00:41:20,445 --> 00:41:22,275 Everything I've ever wanted to build with, 1253 00:41:22,275 --> 00:41:24,015 like, when I say no limits, that's not entirely true. 1254 00:41:24,075 --> 00:41:25,785 There's always limits, but like right, reasonable limits. 1255 00:41:25,785 --> 00:41:28,845 I get to do really extraordinary things and I, 1256 00:41:28,845 --> 00:41:31,095 I wouldn't, there's no way I would've been able to do 1257 00:41:31,095 --> 00:41:32,355 this on, on another path. 1258 00:41:32,355 --> 00:41:34,695 So it's very clear that this was like a singular outcome. 1259 00:41:35,055 --> 00:41:36,675 But when I'm out there, like I was out there, you know, I 1260 00:41:36,675 --> 00:41:38,445 told you this morning at six in the morning, I'm, I'm putting, 1261 00:41:38,895 --> 00:41:40,995 uh, speakers in the ceilings that actually do exist now. 1262 00:41:41,674 --> 00:41:43,294 I'm like, I'm covered in drywall. 1263 00:41:43,444 --> 00:41:44,404 You know, I'm covered in sawdust. 1264 00:41:44,404 --> 00:41:45,395 I'm sweating like crazy. 1265 00:41:45,395 --> 00:41:47,825 'cause in this case it's 90 degrees outside and 1266 00:41:47,825 --> 00:41:49,205 I'm like, I'm so happy. 1267 00:41:49,475 --> 00:41:50,884 I'm so incredibly happy. 1268 00:41:51,185 --> 00:41:53,225 'cause I find something that, that aligns with 1269 00:41:53,225 --> 00:41:56,584 the sacrifice that, that feels like, damn, this is, 1270 00:41:56,674 --> 00:41:57,814 this is what it was for. 1271 00:41:58,024 --> 00:42:03,095 No, it's, you know, when we, we stop optimizing scale and 1272 00:42:03,154 --> 00:42:06,395 we start optimizing for savor. 1273 00:42:07,230 --> 00:42:09,030 Something really special happens man. 1274 00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:10,860 Like we don't need more. 1275 00:42:10,860 --> 00:42:14,490 We need maybe fewer, but certainly like deeper 1276 00:42:14,490 --> 00:42:15,750 and better experiences. 1277 00:42:15,750 --> 00:42:18,390 And I think that like that absolutely does come with 1278 00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:20,820 experience and time, but it also, of course, you had 1279 00:42:20,820 --> 00:42:21,600 to create the opportunity. 1280 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,100 It comes from sacrifice. 1281 00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:24,335 Sacrifice creates the conditions for it. 1282 00:42:25,575 --> 00:42:27,825 Now you're, you're out there, you're building again with 1283 00:42:27,825 --> 00:42:30,464 meaning, which of course there's a very strong metaphor here 1284 00:42:30,464 --> 00:42:33,075 between the house and another startup, so Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1285 00:42:33,075 --> 00:42:34,575 It doesn't go unnoticed. 1286 00:42:34,665 --> 00:42:36,674 However, it seems like a super, it aligned 1287 00:42:36,674 --> 00:42:38,055 well though, and so it does. 1288 00:42:38,055 --> 00:42:38,714 Here's what I would say. 1289 00:42:38,924 --> 00:42:40,935 I would say for founders out there that are kind of 1290 00:42:40,935 --> 00:42:42,975 wrestling with this and we're all wrestling with it, at some 1291 00:42:42,975 --> 00:42:45,345 level, there's, there's no version where you can go through 1292 00:42:45,345 --> 00:42:47,745 this startup thing and have no, never wonder whether the 1293 00:42:47,745 --> 00:42:49,004 sacrifice is gonna be worth it. 1294 00:42:49,255 --> 00:42:52,225 Or in many cases, know exactly what the, the end game is, and 1295 00:42:52,225 --> 00:42:54,745 if you think you do awesome, often when you get there, 1296 00:42:54,745 --> 00:42:56,515 it's not what you thought it was, and that's okay. 1297 00:42:56,515 --> 00:42:56,525 Yeah. 1298 00:42:56,525 --> 00:42:56,575 Yeah. 1299 00:42:56,575 --> 00:42:57,325 Its part of the journey. 1300 00:42:57,715 --> 00:42:58,735 But here's what I would say. 1301 00:42:59,095 --> 00:43:02,995 If you're going to make this sacrifice, commit to something 1302 00:43:03,355 --> 00:43:06,805 that you feel that you can see and touch and taste, and 1303 00:43:06,805 --> 00:43:10,945 feel that if I can get this, it's going to be worth it. 1304 00:43:10,945 --> 00:43:14,275 But the most important part of that is why and 1305 00:43:14,275 --> 00:43:15,475 what happens after that? 1306 00:43:15,655 --> 00:43:16,555 Once I get that. 1307 00:43:17,205 --> 00:43:18,165 Then what happens? 1308 00:43:18,165 --> 00:43:20,025 You know when I wake up the next day and I bought the thing, or 1309 00:43:20,025 --> 00:43:22,575 I've done the thing, whatever, when I wake up the next day, 1310 00:43:22,725 --> 00:43:24,165 what is demonstrably better? 1311 00:43:24,345 --> 00:43:27,944 Because for all of us, if we can't define that next thing, 1312 00:43:28,125 --> 00:43:31,634 if we can't figure out what the rate of pay is going to be for 1313 00:43:31,634 --> 00:43:35,325 our sacrifice, then none of it is ever worth it, and that is 1314 00:43:35,325 --> 00:43:37,670 the worst feeling about taking everything you care about. 1315 00:43:38,245 --> 00:43:39,625 And put it into essentially nothing. 1316 00:43:39,775 --> 00:43:42,445 So take that focus, take that drive, take that sacrifice, 1317 00:43:42,445 --> 00:43:45,385 and make sure when it's time to cash all those chips in 1318 00:43:45,535 --> 00:43:47,995 that you cash 'em out big and you're smiling like we are. 1319 00:43:47,995 --> 00:43:49,285 'cause you've got that perfect alignment. 1320 00:43:50,370 --> 00:43:52,230 Overthinking your startup because you're going it alone. 1321 00:43:52,620 --> 00:43:55,500 You don't have to, and honestly, you shouldn't because instead, 1322 00:43:55,530 --> 00:43:58,620 you can learn directly from peers who've been in your shoes. 1323 00:43:58,710 --> 00:44:01,050 Connect with bootstrap founders and the advisors 1324 00:44:01,050 --> 00:44:03,480 helping them win in the startups.com community. 1325 00:44:03,630 --> 00:44:08,280 Check out the startups.com community@www.startups.com 1326 00:44:08,370 --> 00:44:09,270 to see if it's for you. 1327 00:44:09,510 --> 00:44:10,590 Could be just the thing you need. 1328 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:11,790 I hope to see you inside.