To the We Are More Pod cast. My name is Alyssa. And my

name is Bree. We're two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. We believe

that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach his word. And apparently, that's controversial. Get comfy.

Good morning, Baltimore.

If you're in Baltimore right now, that felt very specific.

There's the flasher who lives next to him.

Is that really the words? Yeah. Oh my gosh.

There's the Bahamas barroom stool.

I did know that part.

They wish me luck on my way to school.

Yeah. If you're in Baltimore right now, that was a very pointed and slightly disturbing musical number.

You're welcome. The last Baltimore romance book that I read was Truly Terrible. What did you read? What was in Baltimore? First Time Caller.

Oh, yeah. You hated that one.

Yeah. Truly Terrible. Don't recommend.

We go through stretches where it seems like there's, like, five bad books in a row.

Yeah. And it makes you think, do I wanna read anymore?

Yeah. Should I just give it We power through. We do power through. I'm proud of us for our resilience.

Yes. And our literacy. Yay for us. Huzzah. And I feel like reading so many, so many books, just a ridiculous, crazy amount where they're spilling out of our bookshelves, out of our cars, and out of our bags, and into our lives.

That gives us a lot of knowledge to talk about literary characters. Literary and also because we have no chill, we watch TV all the time too. True. Cinema. We are.

Yeah.

Cinema Do these count as cinema? They're television characters.

What is television if not cinema?

I've always said that. Yeah. Today, we're gonna be talking if you listened last week, we kind of previewed this a little bit, but we're gonna be talking about problematic relationships Mhmm. That we've seen in books and TVs, shows slash movies. So if this is a series that you guys like, let us know.

It's not gonna be like a, you know, four weeks in a row series. But if this is something you'd like to come back

Or let us know certain couples that you want us to do a Google deep dive into. Thanks, Google. Quick shout out. Some examples for you could be Leslie Knope and Ben. Ben.

What's his last name? Ben. Thank you. I don't think it's

Parks Recreation. Ben Wyatt. It's Ben

I was gonna say Wilder.

That wasn't it.

Ben Wyatt from Parks and Recreation. Or we could do the Phantom of the Opera. Yeah. That's clearly

Love triangle. Not a problematic relationship at all. Health and wellness. That's a good one. I did enjoy Gerard Butler in that, though.

We've talking about him a lot today.

All day today. That's why it was coming into my brain.

I don't know why. Our dad today was like, oh, there's this movie, and there's this guy in it, and he's trying to, like, figure out who it was.

And he's Scottish.

And we finally landed on Gerard Butler. But it was not Phantom of the Opera that he was talking about.

Wouldn't that be funny if it was?

That would be. But, hey, before we get into what we're talking about today, because we have some really cool couples that we're gonna talk about. Actually, you know what? One good one, one truly terrible one.

Yeah.

But I wanted to mention that next week, we have a super special thing going on for you guys. It is

You're welcome.

Our it's not our first interview, technically, but it's our first one with someone that doesn't live in this house. Yeah. One of my creative writing professors from college is gonna come on next week and chat about her book, her upcoming work, and also just some of the experiences that she's had in church, the Church Too movement. And we're super excited to have her. It's gonna be really exciting.

Yeah. I'm excited to let someone else talk. Yeah. Finally. Finally.

Yep. I can shut up.

Yep. So at the end of the episode, listen to the end. I'll mention her book so you guys can snag it before you hear us next week.

Yeah. Feel free to snag. Snag.

I love that word. It's a great word. There's a lot

of good words out there, like crackle. Crackle is a good word. And wisteria.

Alright. And as brain launches into a weird ASMR content. Almost. Moving on. So today we're gonna talk about, like I said, a book couple and then a TV couple.

So the book couple we're talking about is Elizabeth Bennett and Mr. Darcy from Pride and Prejudice.

Could talk about them for hours. That's just one of those iconic.

We have watched these movies. And I'm talking about, like, the six hour BBC special. Which, to be

fair, we were not aware it was six full hours. I thought it was four. We thought it was four. From up until maybe a year ago. Mhmm.

Because we would just sit and watch it. It was a miniseries, and

we just watch it straight through. Yep. We'd commit a whole day to it, and that was just what we did. Since we were, what, like, maybe eight? I mean, we've been watching this a long time.

For ever. We've read the books. The book.

The singular book. Any one book. We've watched, like, every version of this movie. Mhmm. But the six hour one is supreme.

See? With Colin Firth.

I keep hearing lately that, like, the Keira Knightley version I wanna say this was, like, early two thousands when that one came out.

Yeah.

People love that one. They're like, this is the premiere.

It just had an anniversary. We went and saw it

in theaters. We did. The newer one. And it is good. Like, I'm not saying it's not good.

I think it's good. But it's not as good as Colin Firth.

It is not as good as Colin Firth.

My gosh. There's just something about, you know, old BBC that was made in the nineties.

If you haven't seen it, if you haven't seen that version of it, where did we

watch it? YouTube? I watched it on YouTube. I think it was on either Disney plus or Netflix.

Wanna say it's on or it was on Oh.

Well, Google that. Yep. Colin Firth, Pride and Prejudice, 1994.

Somewhere around Something. Yeah.

And just commit a day to it.

You have to commit the whole

day, though. I can quote almost the entire thing.

Because we've seen it no less than 50 times. And I'm not exaggerating.

Love it. I love it.

The intro music just makes me it oh, it just brings out some happiness in my soul.

Would you like me to sing it too? I would

yeah. I think you should. We

can cut that out.

No. Oh, no. No. No.

That's stanion for I'm looking at us. The recording heartbeat, and that went crazy for a second.

All the sound people out there, their hearts are dying.

What would you call that? Sound waves? If not a heartbeat.

The sound waves.

No. Yeah. It doesn't make sense to me. Okay. So anyway.

Elizabeth

and Mr. Darcy. And despite our deep, deep love for these characters, I adore them. Okay? Some of my favorite characters.

We're gonna talk a little bit about why their relationship is not even though it we've kind of held it up as this gold standard, why it's really not the healthiest.

Mhmm. Like, there are just certain couples that people, you know, those swoon worthy couples Yes. That we idealize. Mhmm. And we think this should be true.

This should be real life. This is what I should look for in my partner. And really yeah. There are a lot of problems.

Well, I think that's an important thing to preface all of this with. Like, why are we looking at these problematic couples? Because we've been shown so many couples in the media of like, this is the gold standard. This is the ideal. This is what you should work towards or look for in a relationship.

And a lot of times when you pull apart those couples and you look at that relationship Mhmm. Even though we know it's fictionalized, it's still really problematic sometimes and not what you should be looking for.

I think it's okay to be, like, if we're able to separate reality from fiction For sure. Like, this is not normal. But I also wish there was more representation of really healthy relationships in media. Which I think there it's getting there, but definitely more problem than because, I mean, problems make a good story.

They do. I don't think we can expect that all of a sudden, like, all I mean, we've read how many romance books over the last few months.

I'm looking at my shelves. I'm gonna say billions.

And it you can't have a good story without that really intense

Yeah. Drama. And you want someone to react to that hate. You know? You want either wanna hate them or love them.

You don't wanna be melancholic.

Like that enemies to lovers trope that's so big in literature right now.

There's a lot of tropes. We could talk about that for

a while. That would be a whole other episode. But I think while, yes, we can definitely say this is fiction. This is not ideal. It's important to stop and say, like, here's the problems with this relationship.

So that when women look at these relationships

Mhmm.

They're not like, yeah. That's what I'm looking for. That right there.

Well, it's like when a boy is being aggressively rude or mean to a girl, we tell them, oh, he must like you.

He has a crush on you. Yeah. Like, little girls will do that for sure. And that's just so it teaches the boys that that's how you should treat women. And it teaches women that that's what attraction looks like.

Mhmm. Which leads us really well into Elizabeth and mister Darcy.

Let's talk about when they meet.

So the first instance of them meeting is at a ball. A ball. And she is kind of like and I'm sure most of you know this story. But if you don't, she is like the country girl. Her family is wealthy by, like, our standards, but not wealthy by high class standards Mhmm.

Of the time. And they have five daughters. Yeah. So their estate is not gonna be passed on to any of those daughters. So the mother is, like, really desperate to marry them off so that they can have a future Mhmm.

To be her. Can take care of her. Mhmm. Should their father die. And he's much older.

Yeah. And kind of a butthole.

Yeah. He's he's actually probably the most problematic character

Yeah.

In the whole thing. But that's a whole other thing. So Elizabeth and mister Darcy meet at a ball. And she sees him, and he's attractive, and he's super rich. Super rich.

And so everybody's kinda going after him, and he is just shutting everything down. Mhmm.

They were at a ball where ladies were plentiful and men were very few. Quotes from the book. More than one lady was in want of a partner.

Wow. You guys are gonna get a lot of Brie's really terrible British accent. So to our British listeners, I'm so sorry.

I'm not a geek, okay, or a nerd. I'm not. I don't like the superheroes. But if you want me to nerd out over something, it's Pride and Prejudice.

It's this right here. We may not even get to our TV couple. No. But one of the big issues in this scene is someone's trying to get mister Darcy to dance with Elizabeth. And he That's Mr.

Bingley. Yeah. And he says that she's barely tolerable.

Mhmm. She's tolerable, I suppose. But not handsome enough to tempt me is his direct This

is gonna be a long episode, boys and girls. So we start off with that. Like, that's their first meeting.

Mhmm.

And the whole concept here is that I mean, by the end, obviously this is romance. Spoiler alert. By the end, they get together. What? I know.

Astounding.

I am floored. I would feel

bad spoiler alerting it for you, but the book is, like, really old. So at some point, this is on you.

Yeah. And we did say

Couples. We did say that. Also, this has been turned into many film adaptations. Oh, yeah. So later on, it kind of becomes this, well, he's just kind of shy and embarrassed, and he just doesn't know how to express himself.

And so that's why he behaves this way towards her. And you see kind of a pattern of behavior for quite a while where he treats her poorly because of status. Mhmm. Because her family's significantly poorer. At one point, he tells her that it's her family.

Like, her family has no sense of propriety. Mhmm. Her mom's loud. Her sisters are annoying. Her dad is kind of a jerk.

Like, he starts to obsess over her

Mhmm.

But in spite of himself. Yeah. He watches her all the time. He does end up wanting to dance with her. But also, he's, like, fighting with himself because he hates her family and everything about her life.

Just just pretty much. Yeah. Everything surrounding her. Yeah. We're presented with this as kind of, well, he is this way, but here's all the excuses for why he's this way.

Mhmm.

And look, I'm I'm not the most social person in the whole world. I if someone came up to me and said, Alyssa, go dance with that dude. I'd say like, no, thank you.

But I also don't You don't have to dance with someone if you

don't want to. No. But probably insulting them is not, you know, the ideal situation. Maybe Especially in front of all their friends and family and community.

Maybe not the move. Yeah. You can politely say, no.

Yeah. I I really struggle with this one because it is presented very much as just, he's just not social. He's just not social. And I hate that idea of people that aren't overly social.

Mhmm.

That they are automatically rude. Yeah.

Like, there's an excuse for you because you're not social, you can be a butthole.

Mhmm. Or because you have feelings for someone you don't know how to process them Mhmm. That you can be a jerk to them. Mhmm. Now you can argue that he makes up for it later if you want to.

You can argue that he apologizes later for sure. But it's definitely a bad way to start Mhmm. With this very judgmental, harsh opinion of her.

Mhmm.

Now, on the flip side, she also definitely has been judging him this whole time.

Oh, yeah. She's like, you're gonna insult me this one time. Guess what? I'm gonna take you down. She hates him just passionately.

I'm gonna hold this grudge until I die. Yep.

And then beyond then. Yeah. She's committed hard. And she also, again, from a very problematic standpoint, she kind of goes around to everybody else in her world to get them on her side to hate him.

Mhmm.

Now, would I do this? Maybe. If someone's standing there insulting me in the middle

of the room, like, I'm not

gonna take that well either. But it's not maybe the most mature decision because she goes to her mom, her sisters, her friends, everyone in the community Mhmm. Intentionally to kind of, like, turn them against him. And then doesn't understand why he doesn't wanna be part of their community anymore. Mhmm.

Or why he's, like, haughty and won't dance or won't go to the rest of the events. Things like that. So, you know, maybe maybe she's not doing the best either.

She's yeah. I agree.

We actually talked about this a while ago. When we were kids, it was kind of like you read the title Pride and Prejudice, and you're like, well, who's Pride and who's Prejudice?

Like Beauty and the Beast.

Which one? It's the Beast. I'm confused. But clearly, both of them here have issues with pride and have issues with prejudice against

Mhmm.

Whatever people group. Like, for him, it's people that he thinks are below him in Yeah. And for her, it's it's most people. Yeah.

She's pretty pretty unaccepting. I think for the time, she's portrayed as this more intelligent, very witty Mhmm. Woman. So she looks at the other people surrounding her in her life, and she's like, I'm surrounded by idiots.

Same. Yeah. As I sit here with you.

Hey. Watch it. So another problematic thing that Darcy does, among several things, but his friend, mister Bingley, and Elizabeth's sister, Jane, like each other. And mister Darcy thinks, nuh-uh. No.

This is not okay. You're too wealthy. She's too poor. She's just looking for your money. She doesn't like you, really.

Mhmm. And so he takes it upon himself to separate them without really asking their permission. Mhmm.

I think that speaks to a personality flaw.

Mhmm.

That if you were in a relationship with someone that did this now, she forgives him for this in the end, obviously. But like, if you were in a relationship and someone did something like this, to me that says, I'm incredibly controlling. Yeah. That's the character flaw I see there.

Yeah. And I'm going to manipulate people in my life to do what I think is best.

Mhmm. Without asking them. Yeah. Without because he's dealing with his best friend here.

Mhmm.

Which you would assume, like, if Brie was in a relationship, and I thought, this man is only with her for her money. My massive wealth. I would sit down, have a conversation with her, and say like, hey, I have concerns.

Yeah.

And allow her to then, you know, make whatever decision she's going to make because she's an adult and she gets to do that. But this man, mister Darcy, with his best friend in the world, doesn't trust his best friend to make the best decisions for himself. And so behind everybody's backs and without telling Bingley at all until the end Right. He just does what he wants.

Mhmm. And he, like, tries to make it all better at the end. Because then he's like, alright. Fine. We'll go back to town.

And you can see this girl you think you like. But it would have been much better if he didn't separate them in the first place.

Yeah. And I think, you know, we that's one that we look over in relationships a lot. Like, oh, he's a little manipulative. He's a little controlling.

Mhmm.

Because that's seen as a relatively masculine trait, like, stereotypically. And so we just sort of, like, pre signed by that. And, well, you know, he he likes to be in control. And that's okay. But the reality of this situation in particular, and if you see something like this in someone that you're seeing or someone that you're dating, that's gonna come out later.

Yep. So raise your little antennas to it. Mhmm. And be aware of it. It don't like, it might not be grounds for getting rid of that person right away.

Play it out a little bit. I think it depends on what they do. It depends.

Yeah. For sure. And remember that what you see the way that you see this person interact with their friends, with their family, whatever, is gonna eventually be the way that they interact with you. Mhmm. I think that's a book trope that really bothers me a lot is it's usually the guy.

And he's just really gruff and angry at the whole rest of the world. But to her, all the booktalkers say, he's a cinnamon roll. That's the big thing. Like, he's a cinnamon roll. But if he's that way to everyone else in the world, you are not gonna be the exception forever.

You might be the exception today, but it's not gonna stay that way forever. Mhmm. The way that he interacts with people is who he is as a person. And so you do have to ask that question.

Colors. I'm gonna get in trouble for singing all these songs.

I think if you sing less than ten seconds, we're okay.

I didn't sing ten seconds. Then there we go. Hairspray is gonna get at me.

The whole the whole organization of hairspray Mhmm. Is coming for free. Wait for an update next week. So another and I feel like we're probably gonna go a little bit out of order from the book slash movie. Mhmm.

But one of the issues that comes from Elizabeth is when and why she forgives him for his behavior. What's the quote, Brie?

She says, when when did you know you had feelings for him, Lizzie? And she said, I do believe it was when I thought saw his beautiful grounds at Pemberley. I'm so proud. You're gonna have to cut that out.

I think it sounded great.

So she starts to forgive him after there's other things that happen. But she sees his massive wealth. That sounds dirty. But she saw his home. His home.

His estate. I don't think it's getting better.

Well, now y'all had to hear that. But that's the thing. Her and her aunt and uncle go over to where, like, he lives. Mhmm. And they tour his house because apparently that was a thing that people did.

I kinda

wish it was still a thing. I'm Snoopy.

I mean but are you gonna like, are you touring the neighbor's house? Or do you wanna go to, like, England and tour fancy houses? Fancy houses, estates, large properties. Alright. I'll ask.

No. But they go and they tour it thinking that he's gone, that he's away for whatever, and he ends up being there. And so, like, drama ensues, obviously. Chaos. But it is as much as I mean, for the time, also, you have to remember that marriages were not mostly based on love.

No. It was definitely like a financial agreement. Mhmm. And it's not like you're going out on dates with this person. Right.

It was more just like, let's write up a contract.

Yeah. And women had extremely limited abilities to support themselves.

Like, that was mainly how they would support themselves would be to find a husband.

Especially higher class women.

And what a good one he was.

10,000 a year.

Sister, did I tell you?

My gosh. It's just all nostalgia today. 10,000. But if you were to then take that and transfer it to now Mhmm. It does become much more of an issue.

At the time, is it kind of understandable? Yes.

Mhmm.

Do you get where she's coming from? Because she's coming from a situation where she could be launched into poverty at any time.

Mhmm. And in the story, her heart has already been softened to him a little bit. She learned some truths about him. Mhmm. Reconciled some miscommunication Mhmm.

That she had going on. But I I get it. She saw a beautiful, gorgeous, giant, absolutely massive house. And she thought, this could be mine.

She does say that. That's one of the lines of all this I could could have been mistress. Yes.

I think is what she said.

She did. Like, Ash, we should just quote the whole movie to you. We could. I think it would be good. I think you would love it.

Pretty pretty sure. My favorite line is so stupid. Okay. When I guess only people who have seen Pride and Prejudice will understand this part. When she finds out what happened to Lydia and Mr.

Darcy comes by and finds her in

that moment, he goes, I'm indeed grieved. Grieved. Shocked. There are just so many good pull quotes from that movie. From the miniseries.

But seriously, guys, it's long. It's extensive.

To me, it's more than a movie. It's more than a miniseries. It's an experience.

It's a lifestyle. It's a

lifestyle. I live and breathe it.

So then one of the kind of general ones that I I kind of looked up a couple of issues. Because these are again, this is one of our favorite book couples. I'm not hating on Elizabeth and mister Darcy. I'm just saying that I

think you are a little bit. I mean, I am a little bit. But I'm

just saying, like, modern day, if you're looking for a relationship

Mhmm.

Yes, this is idealized. Yes, this is

beautiful literature. But is this what you want in real life? Yeah. Let's let's get our head out of the fairy tales and be like, this is not reality. Exactly.

But it's okay Yeah. To consume this because it's beautiful.

As long as you can look at it and say, this isn't real. Yeah. And that's fine. That's most of the books from Target, Would you

say that this isn't reality? Oh, there goes Gravity. How many songs are you gonna sing today? 17.

Oh, good. So one of the other issues that it talked about, and this is kind of an overarching thing, is that prior to them getting engaged, they never actually have that deep conversation to talk about, like, hey, we had all these issues. The first time he proposes to her, he insults her on, like, 45 different levels.

Mhmm.

She hated him for a long time. She spewed all kinds of angriiness about him. He was a stinker.

Mean The first proposal It was bad. He was like,

I like you in spite of Yeah. Your family. I like you in spite of your situation in life.

I'm obsessed with you, but everything about you makes me disgusted.

Yeah. It's bad. It's not good. And they never actually have that conversation. At least Mhmm.

On screen on the page.

Mhmm.

You're not seeing that?

Yeah. It's more through, like, actions Mhmm. That they resolve things. And they do have one conversation at the end where she's like, thank you for what you did. Mhmm.

But that's the amount of communication that they Right. They have a lot of talking with their eyes

in in the miniseries. Which probably not Woah. The book, that would be tricky. Think it's fine to obviously, you wanna see someone's actions change in a relationship. You wanna see that they're not just saying pretty words, you know, whatever.

But at the same time, you also need to have the conversation. You need to say, this is what hurt me. This is why this wasn't okay. And know how they're gonna respond to you.

Yeah. You told me my entire family was trash. So I didn't like that, and that made me uncomfortable. Let's converse.

That would have been a good start to the And

he can say, I feel like you only like me for my money and my beautiful, beautiful face. Let's talk.

Alright. Well, someone do a podcast on that, that exact conversation. I would love to hear that. And then tag us so we can listen. Yeah.

But, yeah, I think overall, a beautiful literary couple with definite issues. I think issues that were reflective of the time. Mhmm. But things to steer clear of in your own relationships.

Yeah. It's nice to know that that's not real.

Mhmm. Now next, we're gonna talk about a series a TV series, not a miniseries. Wait. Wait. Wait.

Wait. Did you catch it from that? Do you know what it is now? Did I say it at the beginning? I might have even said what we're talking about at the beginning.

But this is a series that Brie and I have probably watched 7,000 times. I mean, I've watched it so many times.

I've watched it many times. However, I think you've watched it way more than me. Because Alyssa does this thing where she finds a show, she will watch it all the way through multiple times a year, and then start it right back over.

I don't immediately start She does.

I do. She watches the last episode and then says, uh-huh. Let's play the pilot. That's definitely not true. That's true.

But at

least maybe a couple months later, I started. There's like a selection of shows. It's like Friends and Frasier and Brooklyn Nine Nine. This is a list of them. I like Futurama.

Anyway, so we're gonna be talking about Ross and Rachel from Friends. And I think at the time, Ross and Rachel were supposed to be, like, the swoon worthy couple that everybody loved, everybody was rooting for. And modern day, they've really fallen out of favor.

Yeah. I mean, this is a comedy. So, obviously, their personalities, their whole characters are very exaggerated from what you would see in real life. But my gosh, do I hate Ross. I can't stand behind him.

No. From the from moment one. Like, I don't like their relationship ever.

Well, he's obsessed with her. And he feels like because he has this obsession that he can stake some kind of claim over her.

Like, he's owed her.

Mhmm. Yeah. And I just yuck. That gives me the ick. Well, what a

terrible way to start a relationship.

One

of the ways I think they get back together is they've broken up for a little bit or they've stopped seeing each other for a little bit. And then she sees a home video of him at the prom. Like, her her and Monica are going her friend are going to the prom. And he her date doesn't show up. And so he decides he's gonna take her, actually, because his parents tell him to.

And so he gets all dressed up and ready to go. And then he comes downstairs, and her date has shown up. And so she's see about it? Yeah. And she didn't know that he was doing that.

Mhmm. And then all of a sudden she's like, oh, well, if you did that for me back then, clearly, I love you.

Yeah. What a romantic gesture. I love you.

Yeah. And again, it's that constant obsession. It's like this he has been in love with her forever.

Mhmm.

And I think we romanticize that a lot. Like, someone that I'm thinking of, like, movies like 13 going on 30 and stuff like that where, okay, we've been this person's been in love with you since high school. They've been pining for you since whatever. Ew. There comes a point where it's

Move on.

Yeah. Where it's obsessive Mhmm.

And a little icky. And also, what they're obsessed with you over and why they think that they love you Mhmm. They haven't actually spent time to really get to know you and Right. Seen how you've grown and the person that you've become Right. Compared to, like, the person that she was in high school.

Mhmm. She's different. Mhmm. And so I think that's where a lot of the problems come in this show is that he doesn't respect her or her choices. Like, she finally moves on from getting the coffee shop job to a job at Bloomingdale's, I believe.

Through a series of events. Yeah.

And the first time they break up and they say, like, oh, it was just a break Mhmm. That episode. He's is confused why she is upset with him for showing up to her job, I think. And he's like, it's just a job. Yeah.

Yeah. So there's

a whole situation in those episodes. I think it's over the course of a couple of episodes where, like, he's been really jealous of a guy that she's that helped her get this job.

Mhmm.

His name's Mark. I just watched these episodes, guys. I'm in the middle of watching it right now. And so Ross is super jealous of this guy. Just, like, obsessive jealous.

Which again, you can see that as like a personality trait with him. He's obsessive about dinosaurs. Yeah. That too. But anything that he thinks he's owed.

So he thinks Rachel belongs to him. Therefore, he's obsessive about everything in her world. All the people she interacts with outside of their close friend group. And I her friend Monica at one point says to Ross, because he's obsessing over this guy. She says, so what if he wants to sleep with her?

Does that mean he gets to? Mhmm. And that really was significant to me when I was watching it because I think you see a lot of jealousy issues in relationships. And it kind of becomes the woman's job to prove to the man that, like, I'm not sleeping with him. I'm not interested in him.

It's not a big deal. But then the reality comes down to a trust issue. Yeah. Okay. Let's say this other guy in your life is interested in you when you're in a relationship and is flirting with you and whatever.

Now, do you need to put up some walls around that if you're in a committed relationship? Absolutely. But just because he's flirting with you doesn't mean automatically

that you're gonna cheat on your partner. Exactly. You should trust your partner enough that they're not going to hurt you in that way. And if

you truly have that trust issue where you're saying, like, for a reason x y z, I don't think that they're not gonna cheat on me, then that speaks to a much deeper issue and an issue that you need to talk out. Yeah. And resolve.

Mhmm.

And if they had talked that out, then maybe it wouldn't have led to the craziness that ensues.

Mhmm.

Because she's working then at her new really exciting job. Like, she's super pumped about it because she never, like, was expected to have a career. And now she's doing something that she's excited about. And you see a really great representation of a woman back in the nineties

Mhmm.

Building a career for herself. Yeah. Which was a relatively new concept.

Yeah. She came from a family, you're right, where she wasn't expected like, we see that in episode one where she runs away from her wedding. And she says, all my life, I've been told, I'm a shoe. I'm a shoe. Man.

What if I don't wanna be a shoe? Brie's got

all the What

I wanna be? A purse.

Absolutely all the quotes today. You're welcome.

But her whole life, she was told that she was gonna be this certain way. Mhmm. And she broke away from that, meaning financially, she had to make it for herself. Mhmm. And what a huge deal that she went from literally nothing.

She was working at a coffee shop to this really awesome job that she always wanted to work at Bloomingdale's that's amazing. And it's upsetting that her partner who is supposed to care for her the most Mhmm. Is not supporting her in the way that he should.

And because he gets super jealous, he there's an episode where she's working late. She's been working late a lot.

I'm working late.

And so he shows up to her office even though she has told him, like, hey. I don't have time to go to dinner tonight. I don't have time to see you tonight. I'm really sorry. She's kept in communication.

He knows what's going on, and he shows up to her office with a picnic. A picnic. And this is after, like, days of him sending tons of gifts into her work. And I think he sent in, like, a barbershop quartet or something absurd. Like, they're singing to her and making a point of saying, your boyfriend, Ross, whatever.

And that's upsetting too because she wants to be seen as a professional. She doesn't want her boyfriend coming and making a scene

at her place of business. She no longer gets to be an individual in that story. She doesn't get to be herself. She has to be Ross's girlfriend. Mhmm.

She's owned. Yeah. She is property. Yeah. Ew.

And that's what he's trying to do. Mhmm. Clearly, he's trying to stake his little claim, put his little brand on her forehead. Pee on her. Work his territory.

Yeah. And yet, this whole series tries to paint them as the ideal couple. Mhmm. The perfect couple. The couple that you're rooting for to get together in the end.

Now, to her credit, she says, no, this is not okay. I'm not good with this. And ends up breaking up with him over it.

They were on a break. So in this episode, she's upset with him for coming and bringing the picnic and yada yada yada, they fight. And she says, I think we need a break. Mhmm. And he's like, fine.

Let's go get some frozen yogurt or something. She's like, no, no, no. A break from us. Mhmm. But they didn't stop and define what the terms of that break was.

Mhmm. So Ross goes and cheats on Rachel. Mhmm. And I hate how they portray him this whole time because they really try to make you feel bad for him.

They've got him set up as the good guy.

Right. And he's like, no, no, no. We were on a break. You literally broke up with your girlfriend that you loved. Mhmm.

And that night

Mhmm.

You go and find someone else to sleep with, you clearly didn't value her that much. Right. And then you wanna turn around and get right back together with her? Right.

Uh-uh. No, sir. As you're talking, I'm thinking back to, like, earlier in the series when there was a problematic moment. And, like, later in Mhmm. There's so many problematic moments with them.

Because Ross is while they do try and present him as the nice guy, he's also this toxic masculine figure, which you would not expect of him. Like, he's not the most stereotypically masculine figure, but he is so desperate to only be presented as masculine. And if the men around him do anything effeminate at all Mhmm. He's just destroying them over it. Mhmm.

I'm trying to think of, like, an example of that. He does it a lot.

Probably when him and Rachel are living together, they have a kid together. Mhmm. But they're not together. Mhmm. They're not a couple in any way, but they're living together because they have a daughter together.

And Which is maybe not their best life choice.

Yeah. She's seeing someone.

Mhmm.

And he can't stand it. Mhmm. He yells at her and says, like, you can't have men in the apartment even though he's bringing home another woman to the apartment. That double standard of, like, I can do this, but you can't.

Right. There's a lot of, like, little throwaway lines that he says, things like that. And I mean, if you I'm sure most of you guys have watched the show, and you're right there with me. Yeah. You remember these things.

I also thought back to an earlier episode where she had liked him. She decided she had a crush on him. But he went away on a archaeological dig. Julie. Yes.

And he comes back and finds out that Rachel liked him, but he already has a girlfriend. And because he's obsessed with Rachel, now he doesn't know what to do. So him and Chandler and Joey, who are his friends, make a list.

They make a pro

and con list for each of the women. And I don't remember what the other woman's list said. But for Rachel, it said things like, she's kind of spoiled. She's just a waitress. She I forget what all, but, like, many things.

I think they say, like, she has big feet or something. Like, there's just, like, silly things on there too. And she finds it. She's not supposed to find it. They try and hide it from her because, of course, they do.

Mhmm. But she ends up finding it and reading it and not wanting to go out with him because of it. Mhmm. And again, it's presented as like, oh, poor Ross. If she just hadn't found this, he was gonna wanna be with her anyway.

It oh, just miscommunication. No. But I really love what she says here. Now Rachel is very problematic to me because they do wind up together in the end. And she kind of throws away her career for him in the end.

Mhmm. But what she says in this moment, I think, is really strong. She says, imagine what it would feel like to see all the worst things you've ever thought about yourself put on paper and to know that the person you care about the most thinks those things too.

Mhmm.

So when your partner is reflecting back to you the bad

things you think about yourself Yeah.

That's a big issue.

Yeah. Anytime they're making you feel like less than the most amazing version of yourself Mhmm. See a bye. Yeah. No.

I don't have patience for that. Mhmm.

And I wish that we could have those high standards to just say, you know what? This is a deal breaker. You're reflecting back to me the worst of myself. Mhmm. Why would I wanna be with someone who not only believes the worst of me Mhmm.

But makes me worse? Right. Because that's what eventually happens there. You eventually lose that battle. And you become all the things you didn't like about yourself in the first place Mhmm.

When the person that you love keeps throwing that at you. Mhmm. And you see that Ross does throw a lot of those things back at her.

Yeah.

He treats her like she's not as intelligent as he is. Yeah. Like, she shouldn't really be able to make her own decisions because she's not reliable and intelligent enough to make them.

And I think that comes from a place of insecurity for him. Mhmm. Because he was portrayed as kind of a of a geeky character. Mhmm. And so maybe he feels a little bit not worthy of this girl who was like the most popular girl

in school

and that's why he was so obsessed with her. So he wants to knock her down a peg. Yeah. To make himself seem worthy of being around her. And that's just not how a relationship should go.

Mhmm.

You should be always wanting to build each other up, not trying to bring someone down to make yourself feel better. Right. No. Thank you.

Well, I think about, like, if you achieve something. Let's say you get a promotion at work. So often as women, let's say you make more than your partner now. You get a promotion and now you make more than your partner. It's almost an expectation that that's gonna cause a problem.

Mhmm.

You know? That especially in, like, more conservative Christian circles, I feel like the expectation is, well, the man is gonna be the main financial provider. And we talked about the concept of provider a couple weeks ago. But that's the expectation. And now now you make more than him, so now that's a problem.

And he's gonna have to knock you down somewhere else.

Mhmm.

Because you He's gonna be insecure.

So desperately don't wanna take away his manhood. And

that we expect it to be a problem. Why would you walk into a relationship expecting that your partner wasn't gonna want you to be the best version of yourself? Wasn't gonna want you to grow? I expect that my partner is going to grow throughout our time together.

Because, like, if you stay the same, you refuse to change. Mhmm. Without change, you die. So your partner's gonna die. Wow.

Duck. No. Change is good. Mhmm. I mean, sometimes we change for the better.

Sometimes we change for the worse. Changes. Beautiful. Beautiful.

Then the I think the last two episodes, there's like a two parter at the end. Mhmm. So Ross and Rachel have have been through many high and low in this relationship over the nine seasons that they nine, ten seasons?

I don't know.

However many seasons there were. And like Brie said, had a kid together at one point. They were living together for a while. And Rachel gets this offer to go work in Paris. Like, the dream job for most of us, frankly.

Mhmm. But especially for someone who's in fashion, she's super excited. This is amazing. Her and Ross have talked out how they're gonna handle their daughter and going back and forth and things like that, which, of course, would be difficult. Yeah.

Super difficult. But Ross is kind of a terrible parent anyway and very distant from his daughter and his previous son, so maybe it's not as difficult. But she decides that she's gonna take this job. And meanwhile, Ross takes this opportunity to tell her that he's in love with her and has always been in love with her.

Mhmm. Manipulation. Mhmm. Could he have said this

at any other time? Absolutely. Mhmm. Could he have put aside his pride and said, hey, I wanna sit down and have a real conversation with you. I still have feelings for you.

Can we work this out? Or he could have been like, you know what? I've loved her forever. We've tried it, and we've not tried it. And we've tried it, and we've not tried it.

And at this point in her life

Mhmm.

What is best for her is not gonna be my obsessive love. Paris. So in spite of my own feelings Mhmm. I'm gonna keep those to myself. Mhmm.

And I'm gonna hope that this is the right move for her because this is where she needs to go and this is what she needs to do. Mhmm. Best wishes, Rome. Regards.

Yeah. If you love someone, if you actually really love someone

Mhmm.

You should want the best for them. Yeah. It shouldn't love shouldn't be selfish.

Mhmm. That's so biblical.

Oh, thank you. We so often see love as being possession. Love as being I need you to do what I want you to do. I need you to be mine because I want Yes. Mhmm.

Love should be selfless. I love you, so I want the best for you. Mhmm. Because I know that if I force you into a situation in which you're not happy, you're gonna resent me eventually anyway. You're gonna hate me eventually anyway.

So why would I do that? That's stupid. Mhmm. And yet, that's exactly what he does. He becomes very manipulative again, which is how their relationship started.

It's how their relationship continued. Manipulation was, like, the theme.

Manipulation and toxicity.

And he says, I love you. I want you to stay with me. Please stay with me. And so she gets on the airplane to go Mhmm. And then decides she can't do it.

She loves him. She wants to stay with him. So she gets off the plane and presumably gives up this amazing job. Now, don't know that for sure because the series ends. And so forget you.

You don't get to know. Mhmm. Uh-huh. But you assume that she gave up this really amazing job.

I hate. I hate that. Mhmm. In a show, in a book, Emily Henry's book, Happy Place.

Mhmm.

I don't know if any of you have read that yet. If you don't wanna hear a spoiler, turn it off right now or skip forward a little bit. But this girl is like a doctor. And at the end of the book, she gives up her whole career Mhmm. To be with this guy.

And I just wish that wasn't expected of women all the time in media, where the woman is constantly giving up her opportunities just to be with a boy. Mhmm. Why can't we have it both?

Well, it's like every Hallmark movie ever.

The high powered Business lady.

Yeah. Comes back to her small hometown and falls in love with a carpenter. I don't know. Decides to live in the small hometown and whatever. And I'm not saying that you can't make whatever choices fulfill you at the end of the day.

But, yeah, that same expectation doesn't come for men.

No. You never hardly ever see a man giving up power in any way to be with someone else. Right.

If you look at this particular situation too, let's assume that Ross and Rachel would have had a good relationship had they been together. He could have followed her.

Mhmm.

I'm sure there's museums in Paris. He could have found somewhere to work there. He could have followed her. Also, she was probably making way more money than he was. Mhmm.

So he could have been a stay at home dad. But that was never even on the table. Yeah. It's never even on the table in so many of these stories for the man to give up any part of his career.

Mhmm.

Any part of what makes him shine. What makes him important in society.

Mhmm.

But she is so often expected. And Rachel constantly, through this series, is expected to give up who she is, to give up her career, to give up things that she's worked so hard for. Mhmm.

Press thinking toad. Mhmm. And if your relationship

asks that of you now if you choose to do it on your own Mhmm. Make your own choices. But if your partner is asking that of you, that's when it becomes incredibly problematic. No one should ever tell you, give this up to be with me. Yep.

You can choose to do it. But the moment someone tells you, I'm more important than this other thing in your life,

Now you've got a problem. Something that makes you who you are Mhmm. Too. Like, if someone ever asked me to give up cheese, it would be a deal breaker. I just couldn't do it.

And you

know, that's a really common thing asked in relationships. I hear that all the

time. For the lactose intolerant. So

boys out there, if you wanna date my sister, you have to be aware that cheese is just never off the table.

I have a shirt that says cheese is my very strength or something like that. It's great. We

we looked at I did some research, and I talked to Chad GPT a little bit too. And I think one No. One of the funniest things that it said, because I had to kind of give me some funny lines about these characters. It says moral of the story for the Ross and Rachel relationship. And it says, love conquers all, especially logic, therapy, and feminism.

And I think that's a great note to end on. Your relationship should not conquer logic, therapy, and feminism. No. If your relationship defies logic, defies therapy, or defies feminism, take many a step back.

But turn around. Turn your

little butt around. Run the other Say bye bye.

Then you can make a pro con list.

It's gonna be a long con list. Yep. Yep. Alright. So next week, we are gonna be chatting with my professor.

We're super excited. Her book is called The Surface of Water, and you can find it on Amazon. You can also find it on Baker Bookhouse. I think Baker Bookhouse is the most recent publishing. We are so excited to have her on.

It's gonna be fun to catch up with her. She was, like, my absolute favorite professor in college. Sorry if any of my other professors are listening. I

did not have her as a professor, but I'm so excited to chat. Always a willing participant. Well well, no.

Back that right up.

Strike that. I'm really pumped. Hi, Professor Peach. It's me, Brianna. We haven't met.

I'm really excited to talk to you. Your book is great. Best wishes.

So on that note, I hope you're all really excited. We are very excited. I think it's gonna be super fun to talk to her, and I think you guys are gonna learn a lot about her research process. We're gonna talk a little bit about publishing. We're gonna talk, like I said, about, like, Church two movement.

So tune in next week for that. And we will talk to you then.

I was gonna end on a Pride and Prejudice quote.

It is a truth universally acknowledged.

I was gonna say that. I know. It's like, like, the first quote.

It's quite literally the the prologue. Then a woman

must be in want of a wife. All the quotes. A man of good fortune must be in want of a wife.

There she goes.

There she is. Alright.

Love you. Bye. Bye. Sorry.