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Both Josh Hackenjos and Justin Stoddart have had contracting businesses. From this experience, they realized some fundamental flaws in the professionalism of this industry.
Real estate agents, unless taught otherwise, have some similar tendencies. Today we are going to cover how to avoid that trap and become more of a professional, earning the respect of your customers and colleagues and moving more towards advisor and consultant than a salesman.
Show Notes
Justin Stoddart 0:00
Hey, welcome back to the Think Bigger Real Estate Show. I'm your host Justin Stoddart, very excited about today's episode before I introduce the topic, let me just restate my mission, which is to help you think bigger. And when you think bigger, you end up growing as a person. And as you grow as a person is so good. So grows your business, which opens up all kinds of opportunities, more options, as well as more impact. So I'm excited to have my good friend Josh Hackenjos with me here today. Let me just begin before I fully introduce you, Josh, thanks for being on the episode today.
Josh Hackenjos 0:30
Yeah. Good morning, Justin. It's an honor to be here. I really appreciate you letting me come on here to chat.
Justin Stoddart 0:35
Yeah, man, I appreciate you let me twist your arm to have you come in for value into this audience. I know. Every time you and I have conversations, I walk away a little bit smarter. And so I knew that you do that for this audience as well. So for those of you that don't know Josh, he got his start in the real estate industry back in '05. He was a guy that would show up at the front yards of homes were getting to be sold he would dig the hole and the sign in the yard. So little humble beginnings. But he was a talented guy. So he moved from that to actually being a team owner, kind of ran his own real estate team, then was promoted, and I should say, recruited into a role in which he was, had a very big leadership role within a very big Keller Williams office here in the Portland metro area. He's now a solo agent. He owns Hackenjos Property Group, as well as has built a coaching company called Community Empire, and which he helps agents with many of the things we're going to talk about today. So with all that being said, Josh, you and I both have a background in the construction industry. I had a contracting company, you've built homes yourself. And there are some common threads that you and I started to talk about, that that industry is well known for its craftsmanship, but not well known for its professionalism. Would you agree?
Josh Hackenjos 1:49
Yeah, absolutely.
Justin Stoddart 1:52
You know, for me, I didn't aspire to be in the, in the construction world, I really grew up in a very business oriented family. And in the early 2000s, that was just a great business opportunity. And so I hopped on as, as did many, and was able to benefit greatly from the construction industry. Until it will kind of wasn't a more but in that timeframe. It was interesting. As the construction market started to crash, I had asked myself, I was asking mentors around me, I was like, What do you think this is going to mean for the industry? And their comment was, you know, I think five years it'll be back. And for me, it had I really loved building homes. And I really loved working with contractors day in and day out, I probably would have said, I'll wait for it right, I'll do kitchen and bathroom models because I love this work. For me. I realized my passion was not building homes. It was building people and building businesses. And so the construction world actually at times was quite aggravating. Because of subcontractors again, they were they kind of fall into this typical concept of the E-Myth. Right? If anyone's read the book, E-Myth, I know, Josh, you have that people are very good craftsmen, very good technicians. So they assume that they're going to be good business owners, they just kind of like Well, I'm good at doing finished carpentry. So I'm going to be good at building a finished carpentry business. And that wasn't always the case. Josh, I would imagine you had some similar experiences in a Ha's and your time in the contracting world.
Josh Hackenjos 3:12
Yeah, absolutely. And it's and it's funny, as we've been riffing on this, you know, the similarities, real estate are going to start popping up as-as we talk through this, because, right, you've got these, I came out of the new construction, world framing and then doing finished carpentry and in the remodeling world. And you've got these guys who are amazing at their work, you know, as a tile setter, as a Finish Carpenter as an electrician. And while they are masterful in what they do there, they never went through the courses on how to run a business, how to hire, how to retain talent, how to run QuickBooks, and get billing out how to just show up as a business owner. Is this starting sound a lot like realtors, right? low barrier to entry, high level of skill and talent up here, and maybe not the business background to run it.
And this is something you know, we were talking about this in terms of these, these general contractors who are out there who are so good at what they do. And yet the customer experience the customer service and communication expectation setting is where things fall apart. Right? How often have you been in the middle of a remodel? And it turns out, well, that sink is out six weeks. And so because this thing's not here, then the guy can't do the counter. And because the counter is not here, the plumber can't come in, right? And then we say, Oh, my contractors had our place torn apart for six months. The frustration is due to a failure of setting expectations. Yeah, and all of this right, let's draw parallels right out the gate. You know, I wrote an offer. And then I never heard back whether we got it accepted, or we have no idea we were going to have to do these repairs as the seller, right? In the real estate world. There are all these correlations, in terms of a failure to set expectations leads to frustration with the experience, is it I mean, I think I'm drawing a parallel, it feels it feels right.
Justin Stoddart 4:57
Well, it's, it's interesting, because the people that again, come into the construction world, typically we're raised by a very craftsman, you know, artisans, in the woodworking space, or in the concrete space or whatever. without really a business background. And in real estate agents, they don't necessarily the industry doesn't necessarily attract. To start people who have kind of deep business backgrounds is typically people that are great salespeople, they're great customer service people. So very similar to a contractor, like you're saying that they've got a certain skill set that that lends itself very well to serving clients to getting a certain product complete a certain finished product. But the business and you know, to not pick on real estate, not pick on construction. The same thing happens in the dentist, you know, in the dental industry, and even doctors, right, they're fabulous doctors, but a lot of times they're not great business people. They're fabulous dentist, but they're not great at running a business. It's two separate hats. It's two separate businesses. And I know what Josh, what you and I have discussed, we believe that the future for well paid real estate agents now I believe that there will be a place for a lot of real estate agents, I think I buyers will take a chunk of the pie, I really do think that there will also be a place for low paid real estate agents, ones that are more like Uber drivers that are in a certain neighborhood and someone needs them to come to open up a door. And they'll get a little ding on their phone. Hey, you need to open a door over here. They'll get paid. Not well, but they'll get paid for that service. Right with, a functionary role?
Justin Stoddart 6:26
Yes.
Josh Hackenjos 6:28
Right. Yeah,
Justin Stoddart 6:29
exactly. And then there will be a group that you and I are really trying to cater to, and really help as many as we'll listen. Say, Hey, guys, there's a green pasture over here, right? There's, there's a better there's a bright future if you become a consultant, right or an advisor, and actually give people knowledge beyond just functionary task more fiduciary role. Talk to us about that Josh, kind of your understanding and belief in this, this world where we believe real city just need to go to maintain the margins, first of all, to maintain the value that the client so that they can demand the margins that they're going to want,
Josh Hackenjos 7:07
okay. And I'm going to try to draw a few threads and then tie them all together, cool? So I've been shouting from the mountaintops for a while now as-as have a lot of people in our industry, locally and nationally about the difference between a consultative approach and the sales approach, right, a consultant is going to be somebody who's sitting at the same time at the same side of the table as you look out at the problem. a salesperson is sitting on the other side of the table as you trying to get you to come into the middle. And in my opinion, with my limited experience, I believe that that consultative role is the future for financial real estate world what wealth a real estate brokerage, right. And so, the functionary role, no problem, we're always going to have that. And I guess I wanted to tie it through. If you haven't done this, I just encourage everyone to do this. Go take a stroll through a big shopping mall. Okay, like just go walk through. It's like a wasteland. No offense, anybody here who owns franchises in shopping malls, a lot of mom and pop businesses still in there. But you walk through and I mean, I'm walking through a big empty warehouse. And if I remember, oh, I need paperclips at home, I'm going to jump on to Amazon and buy it real quick. And yet I'm walking through because there's nowhere in that space where I need consultative services, right? Because if I need the functionary thing of just what I need to buy, I'm just going to get because the world has head is heading that direction. Now if I need specific help, and right let's use alike let's say I have a specific business meeting and I need a new shirt and tie thing to make sure I when I can walk into a Nordstrom and I know that I'm going to get approached by that person who's going to step in as a consultant. From the moment I walk in the door. And I'm going to say hey, this is what I need. And there you said no problem. We can get you there, we can help you through it. I'm in their hands. And I'm being taken care of through the entire experience. Because in that instance, I need consultation. Trust me from a fashion standpoint, I need consultation. And yet, when I just need functionary things like paperclips and staples, I can handle that. So there's the line of drawing between
concepts, consultation, and salesperson, I don't need somebody just selling me something across the counter. Now, whether it's real estate or in contracted services when we come in, and we are the expectation setter, we are the consultant of here's how the process is going to go. That is where our true value is. And I look at the people in my world that I pay top dollar to, they are the ones who are advising me and providing the consultative services to explain how I need to proceed in whatever aspect of my life. Cool. So the other thing that you know, I mean, we're, I'm both in the real estate broker world and then in the coaching world, and we talk a lot about consultant versus coach. And is it alright, if I kind of get my distinction there?
Justin Stoddart 10:06
Absolutely. Let me just let me just kind of agree with what you said there about salespeople, it is interesting how Amazon to large degree has taken the place of a lot of different sales people, I think, with the fact that today, people can do video tutorials that really explain the need, when you've got, you know, testimonials afterward and five stars, people can kind of get their questions answered on basic products on the basic selling process. And, you know, a common mentor that you and I have. Chris Suarez, who we were both able to hear from yesterday. You know, he said that, that he believes that the real estate professionals will never be totally replaced. Because wealth is such a large or sorry, real estate is such a large wealth determiner. And I and I agree with them when it comes to fiduciary tasks like you're saying of like advising people on whether they should buy or whether they should not on where they should put an offer to get the home and where they should not. And I think sometimes it's not even questions, my good friend and mentor James Adair, of Sierra Pacific mortgage mentioned, he said, you know, the, when he advises clients, it oftentimes clients will say, James, like, what am I not thinking about here? In other words, like what question Do I not even know to ask that you should be asking and then answering, I think it's really difficult for algorithms, and even low paid labor to perform that function, right? That's a truly fiduciary function, whereas all the sale stuff will be replaced at some point is kind of an Amazon type feature Uber type feature, but that that high level, person that functions at a high level in the knowledge economy, which we live, that's where there's going to be opportunity, that's where people need high-level help. That's where there's going to be a protected real estate advisor, margin, right, where people are going to need to move that they want to stay well paid in this industry.
Josh Hackenjos 11:56
Yeah, and that's
okay. So and there's so many good analysis is here, right? When I need medical counsel, I can go to Web MD, or I can go see my physician, right when we started and built and sold multiple businesses. And when you do that, you need an attorney involved at different points. And I can go Google, how to make sure I stay on the straight and narrow, or I'm going to call my attorney because I value that consultative service. Because there, I'm not going to write the contract, they're going to do it. That's consultation, that means they're going to do the work for me. Because I need that right. You can go on to your Ameritrade account, any kind of goof around a little bit. But if you're trying to fund college or your retirement, like you better have some good counsel to guide you through that. I can just keep on listening to these analogies. But can we agree that there are services in which we need masterful expertise to guide us through the process? And I certainly hope that an average price point above $400,000, we're seeking professional your counsel on these financial decisions in real estate? Yeah, I was just saying that we easily fall in that category, we better be careful not to slip down this path of we're just salespeople not gonna, like salespeople or, you know, we don't need that for these assets.
Justin Stoddart 13:17
I think that's why we see
more than ever clients talking about potential like fee negotiations with their agent because their agent is showing up as one of many, right? Someone who can do the same thing that other either tech companies and or other agents can do. Whereas when you start to position yourself as an advisor, or as a consultant and helping people,
those conversations tend to be less and or off the table. Yeah, you're leading with knowledge that you can't get from anyone else.
Josh Hackenjos 13:46
That's absolutely right.
Okay, can I All right, and this is cool. So can I tie this to the general contractor? All right. So if you've ever had your house remodel, right, you're going to it, it's a nightmare, right? You've got this all these worthy construction workers descending on your house, and we get a bunch of noise in the morning of the parent things off, and there are plywood and blue tarps and all this stuff, right? So the best I knew that I worked for this guy, he was just he was so good with his people. He's a referral based general contractor in the remodeling sector, right? We want to be referral based in real estate because it's just cheaper, like, let's be real. And you work with people who like he was so good. And here's what he would do.
Let's say we're rolling out at eight o'clock, right? You roll out your tools, you're getting everything going, he's going to show up at 745. And he's going to walk up the driveway, and he's going to scoop up the newspaper, and he's got coffee and donuts in the one hand, and he comes in, he knocks on the door and says here's morning paper, and he's got coffee and donuts, he lays down, he remembers the kids names. He remembers the dog's names. He remembers what they were talking about last week when they did this. And he's there just shooting the breeze with the family while they're trying to get up and get the kids school and everything. So that when eight o'clock hits and the swarthy construction workers, me and the other dudes, you know, we put out our cigarettes and we crank up the compressor and plug in the saws and start making all this noise that is disruptive. He has already softened the landing by being there in the kitchen, chatting through. How's everybody doing? Hey, just so you know, here's what's going to happen next. Right? So they never have to ask, it's a failure of your client has to ask you what's next. It's our job to have beat them to it. Right? You wouldn't make the rounds to multiple jobs. So that at least once a week, he was always hitting one of these to show up and do that touch right. We read the power moments recently. Yeah, okay. But ours was taken us through, right. And you and I would mention for as we've been talking about this book. And so this general contractor created this moment, in what would have otherwise been a horrible daily disruption to people's lives, right kick on an air compressor, you light up a saw, like, you know How noisy that isn't disruptive when you're trying to get the kids off to kindergarten. And yet, he would smooth that by setting expectations and creating moments, the only way he could do that was through good leverage. Because if he had to go sit in line at par lumber to pick up the materials for the day, that he couldn't be there, to walk in with the donuts and coffee. Cool. So when we get back to E-Myth, and we get back to real estate brokers, where the instances in which we're doing the equivalent of sitting in line at the lumber yard, instead of being there, setting expectations and smoothing the path for our clients. And this is where when I get into the coaching side of thing, the business this is what I'm focused on is you got to get that leverage on those functionary parts of your business. So you were just there for the golden moments of fiduciary and expectation setting. And at least for this general contractor I used to work for the phone would rent, big kitchen remodels, bathroom remodels, additions, the phone is ringing, he's not having to spend, he's not buying leads, right? This terminology that we use in our industry. I only know his phone just rang because he's loved on his people showed up he set expectations. So I did that parallel. And I'm excited about that parallel because I think there's so much to learn from that. And I mean, I'm working with a couple of general contractors as well talking about this, because, in their business, it's still an issue. And the same conversation can be having real estate. Okay, so there's my like, I've been kind of stewing on this all morning.
So I had to get it out.
Justin Stoddart 17:37
I love it. Gosh, there are so many comparisons. And they're so real to me because it seems I mean, it was just 10 probably short years ago, that I was in that same spot right where I had. Now I wasn't doing remodels, I towards the end, I was actually as a construction market. And I remember, and it wasn't even the construction process in general, wasn't an overall enjoyable one for the clients like it was kind of exciting when they're building a dream home. But there's a lot of uncertainty. And to just be able to assure people, right, I did this great at sometimes other times, I didn't and I learned the hard way. But to be able to like you said to tell people, hey, this is what's happened. This is what's happening. And this is what's going to happen. It just puts people at ease. I knew that when I was a general contractor, I was not doing a good job when the client would call me and say what's happening tomorrow. And you mentioned this, but I remember like specific clients and they would get a point where if a client did that too many times Pretty soon, they're out in the evenings having to run their own job or so they think. And now things are going fine. But because it wasn't communicated to them what was going, they feel like they've got to grab the wheel because no one else is grabbing. And so there's this whole component of, of actually being on it and having a good team on it. And then also communicating it to where people actually know what's happening. And they don't have to worry about it. Right. It's not taking up space in their head.
Josh Hackenjos 18:53
So let me jump on that real quick. The moment that the homeowner in a remodel has to take the rains. And maybe they have to figure out what's next or they have to do something. Suddenly, do you think there may be a question the fee that the general contract, right, because generally, here's the work and then here's their feet? Yeah. Because they're taking on some of the functionary role and some of the steering the ship a little bit, some of that just saying what am I paying this guy for? If I don't even know what's happening next? Can we please link this to the real estate conversation in which why if we are there setting expectations and smoothing the path for everything that's going to happen? Such we're consulting them through this process? If we're doing our job, I don't think the value comes into question. the brilliant guy in our office, I love him, Rick Saidel. And he threw this down years ago, he said cost is only an issue in the absence of value. Right? Cost is only an issue in the absence of a value, whether you're a general contractor tearing apart someone's kitchen, or you're a real estate broker, helping them sell their own. Like we're doing our job, that conversation doesn't come on.
Need systems and organization to make it look effortless, right? It takes wild orchestration and control on our part to make it look easy and make it look effortless.
Justin Stoddart 20:10
I mean, what are some key takeaways, Josh, that people could do? If they're saying like, I know, I need to increase the professionalism in my practice, right? I'm a good real estate agent, for example. But there are some breakdowns in my overall customer experience. As soon as things get busy, right. As soon as things get busy. These touch points kind of go out the window, at what point would you say? I mean, would you recommend At what point do you hire somebody? And this is a whole, like opening up numerous topics, right, which is kind of a subtle invitation for you to come back and pour more value to the audience again. But what advice like what's step one, even in evaluating as to if they need to add leverage?
Josh Hackenjos 20:48
Okay, so one of the fun exercises that I've been doing with some real estate agents, as I'm interviewing them for the position they hold in their current organization. Right, so we go through this process, and we've got some great proprietary
hiring, interviewing and retaining talent, products and curriculum over there, the kW world, and, and, and even some things like my coach comes out of the tech industry, right. So I'm not even coaching within the real estate sector. And so I'm pulling in things from other industries. But one of the really valuable exercises that I've gone through with people who will allow me to is to interview them for the role they currently hold in their own organization and see if they're a good fit for what they're doing. And this is fun. It's kind of terrifying. If you go here and say, Oh, well, it looks like you're doing some activities in your role that are not your area of peak performance, right, like Peter Drucker, like focus on the areas in which was superior performance, and your part will produce outstanding results. Well, we're going to focus on those areas and get rid of everything else. So that would be step one, is to put yourself through a rigorous.
Like, what do you call like a standards conversation for your own role in the organization? I don't care if you're the owner, or you're the listing broker, Cool, let's test you for the role. Are you good at that role? And what are you doing in there that you're not really good at? So that would be step one. And then by doing that, typically, we're going to identify those aspects of the business that could benefit from leverage, because we got to pull you out of that $15 an hour activity and put you into that $200 an hour activity, and then just do more of that, right. It's, I think that's a fun one.
For the people with whom I've worked to allow me to take them through that process, we have a good time doing it. And we usually learn a lot about their businesses. And we're just poking at the weak spots.
Justin Stoddart 22:45
Here's an example that of an exercise that will have agents do that, I think is I was actually reminded of this, when you said this, but have them identify what is their ideal dollar per hour? Like what are the x you want to be making per hour, and compare that versus what their daily task list looks to task list looks like? And then ask them, Okay, sounds like you're doing your own paperwork, would you go to Craigslist, and pay somebody $200 an hour to do your paper? They're like, $200 an hour? Are you kidding me? Well, it's like, well, you just answer the question that, that you probably don't belong in that role. If that's really what you want to get paid. You cannot be focusing on activities that don't pay $200 an hour, you only can be focused on activities, where you are doing $200 an hour activities if you actually want to make that much, right.
Josh Hackenjos 23:29
And I would say I would argue that I'm a slow money guy like I believe in that long, slow, you know, success is sequential, not simultaneous. And so there are some areas where we can get fuzzy on this, like, a lot of people say okay, well then I'm going to just pick a phone, dial dial dial, well, you caught me today, I'm in the middle of this morning of swapping out a couple of water heaters, houses here in my neighborhood. And I do a lot like the company's community Empire. My wife owns a business in the yoga world, I do a lot of community stuff, we do a lot of stuff together around music and health and wellness and things like that. And I would argue that there are instances where I'm just hanging out with my neighbors, and I'm doing that $200 an hour activity, because I'm investing in my community and long term return on investment there, that I get to work with cool people who I like working with, who are grateful for my level of service, and I don't have to go chase it off. You know, I don't buy leads, I just invest in my community. So I would say if I'm out helping my neighbor doing something, I may be doing my highest dollar per hour activity. So just be careful about what we categorize as our key activity. Because, you know, I don't do that with them, like, the ulterior motive of like, well, I'm gonna do this and then get it's just No, I believe that if we invest in our communities, we will be rewarded with trust. And if we have a business that requires flourish in that environment.
Yeah, like I'm I'm pulling weeds from my neighbor, I'm maybe doing $200 an hour.
Justin Stoddart 25:07
Interesting.
All right, Josh. Josh, last question. Here's our signature question that you're unprepared for. But I know a guy like you since you are a big thinker, you belong on the thing bigger real estate show, what's something that you do want to on a regular basis, to think bigger, to intentionally position yourself to be a big thinker to expand your own possibilities.
Josh Hackenjos 25:31
So this is so funny because here's what I should do every day. And then what I actually do
and, you know, I'll just I think my life has been changed through a couple of
health and wellness decisions. Both you can ask a couple of the other guys who you've had on the show as well about this. We've worked with a specific boxing trainer I'll give them a call out Ben Metts down in Portland city boxing if you want a mindset coach, go get punched in the face first thing in the morning. And everything else in your day is easy to do first thing in the morning curled up in a fetal position crying that's how I start my day.
Unknown Speaker 26:15
So call Ben Metts and set it up. But I would just say around some of those things getting the mindset of the limitations that we put in our way that is purely mental like you can do one more push up you can run one more lap The only thing stopping you is mindset. And when I learned that from this lovely dude down there, Ben mats that became applicable in my world and I feel like I've seen the biggest reward and return from that from anything else just from realizing that the boundaries in my way will primarily mental and so yeah, so a big thanks to that guy but I would say and I like I said I try to get there you know, I miss my yoga routine a lot of days because I just don't like a cheeseburger a milkshake, but
Josh Hackenjos 27:04
I'm trying to hit that routine.
Justin Stoddart 27:06
I love it man that's an answer I haven't heard before I love that. Start off by getting punched in the face every day and then everything else seems easier. That's awesome.
Josh Hackenjos 27:13
Everybody's got their think
Justin Stoddart 27:14
I love it. Well thank you want to thank you so much for for the value that you poured into the audience today and into me always do and for those of the audience that is interested in seeing content with Josh, you can find them on social media. You can also email them if you want to talk specifically about his group coaching. Josh, joshhackenjos.com. He's got some great stuff to offer people. I know he helps a lot of people. So I want to thank you again, Josh, for being such a valuable guest and such a good friend. Appreciate you, man, very much.
Josh Hackenjos 27:41
Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on here.
Hey, welcome back to the Think Bigger Real Estate Show. I'm your host Justin Stoddart, very excited about today's episode before I introduce the topic, let me just restate my mission, which is to help you think bigger. And when you think bigger, you end up growing as a person. And as you grow as a person is so good. So grows your business, which opens up all kinds of opportunities, more options, as well as more impact. So I'm excited to have my good friend Josh Hackenjos with me here today. Let me just begin before I fully introduce you, Josh, thanks for being on the episode today.
Josh Hackenjos 0:30
Yeah. Good morning, Justin. It's an honor to be here. I really appreciate you letting me come on here to chat.
Justin Stoddart 0:35
Yeah, man, I appreciate you let me twist your arm to have you come in for value into this audience. I know. Every time you and I have conversations, I walk away a little bit smarter. And so I knew that you do that for this audience as well. So for those of you that don't know Josh, he got his start in the real estate industry back in '05. He was a guy that would show up at the front yards of homes were getting to be sold he would dig the hole and the sign in the yard. So little humble beginnings. But he was a talented guy. So he moved from that to actually being a team owner, kind of ran his own real estate team, then was promoted, and I should say, recruited into a role in which he was, had a very big leadership role within a very big Keller Williams office here in the Portland metro area. He's now a solo agent. He owns Hackenjos Property Group, as well as has built a coaching company called Community Empire, and which he helps agents with many of the things we're going to talk about today. So with all that being said, Josh, you and I both have a background in the construction industry. I had a contracting company, you've built homes yourself. And there are some common threads that you and I started to talk about, that that industry is well known for its craftsmanship, but not well known for its professionalism. Would you agree?
Josh Hackenjos 1:49
Yeah, absolutely.
Justin Stoddart 1:52
You know, for me, I didn't aspire to be in the, in the construction world, I really grew up in a very business oriented family. And in the early 2000s, that was just a great business opportunity. And so I hopped on as, as did many, and was able to benefit greatly from the construction industry. Until it will kind of wasn't a more but in that timeframe. It was interesting. As the construction market started to crash, I had asked myself, I was asking mentors around me, I was like, What do you think this is going to mean for the industry? And their comment was, you know, I think five years it'll be back. And for me, it had I really loved building homes. And I really loved working with contractors day in and day out, I probably would have said, I'll wait for it right, I'll do kitchen and bathroom models because I love this work. For me. I realized my passion was not building homes. It was building people and building businesses. And so the construction world actually at times was quite aggravating. Because of subcontractors again, they were they kind of fall into this typical concept of the E-Myth. Right? If anyone's read the book, E-Myth, I know, Josh, you have that people are very good craftsmen, very good technicians. So they assume that they're going to be good business owners, they just kind of like Well, I'm good at doing finished carpentry. So I'm going to be good at building a finished carpentry business. And that wasn't always the case. Josh, I would imagine you had some similar experiences in a Ha's and your time in the contracting world.
Josh Hackenjos 3:12
Yeah, absolutely. And it's and it's funny, as we've been riffing on this, you know, the similarities, real estate are going to start popping up as-as we talk through this, because, right, you've got these, I came out of the new construction, world framing and then doing finished carpentry and in the remodeling world. And you've got these guys who are amazing at their work, you know, as a tile setter, as a Finish Carpenter as an electrician. And while they are masterful in what they do there, they never went through the courses on how to run a business, how to hire, how to retain talent, how to run QuickBooks, and get billing out how to just show up as a business owner. Is this starting sound a lot like realtors, right? low barrier to entry, high level of skill and talent up here, and maybe not the business background to run it.
And this is something you know, we were talking about this in terms of these, these general contractors who are out there who are so good at what they do. And yet the customer experience the customer service and communication expectation setting is where things fall apart. Right? How often have you been in the middle of a remodel? And it turns out, well, that sink is out six weeks. And so because this thing's not here, then the guy can't do the counter. And because the counter is not here, the plumber can't come in, right? And then we say, Oh, my contractors had our place torn apart for six months. The frustration is due to a failure of setting expectations. Yeah, and all of this right, let's draw parallels right out the gate. You know, I wrote an offer. And then I never heard back whether we got it accepted, or we have no idea we were going to have to do these repairs as the seller, right? In the real estate world. There are all these correlations, in terms of a failure to set expectations leads to frustration with the experience, is it I mean, I think I'm drawing a parallel, it feels it feels right.
Justin Stoddart 4:57
Well, it's, it's interesting, because the people that again, come into the construction world, typically we're raised by a very craftsman, you know, artisans, in the woodworking space, or in the concrete space or whatever. without really a business background. And in real estate agents, they don't necessarily the industry doesn't necessarily attract. To start people who have kind of deep business backgrounds is typically people that are great salespeople, they're great customer service people. So very similar to a contractor, like you're saying that they've got a certain skill set that that lends itself very well to serving clients to getting a certain product complete a certain finished product. But the business and you know, to not pick on real estate, not pick on construction. The same thing happens in the dentist, you know, in the dental industry, and even doctors, right, they're fabulous doctors, but a lot of times they're not great business people. They're fabulous dentist, but they're not great at running a business. It's two separate hats. It's two separate businesses. And I know what Josh, what you and I have discussed, we believe that the future for well paid real estate agents now I believe that there will be a place for a lot of real estate agents, I think I buyers will take a chunk of the pie, I really do think that there will also be a place for low paid real estate agents, ones that are more like Uber drivers that are in a certain neighborhood and someone needs them to come to open up a door. And they'll get a little ding on their phone. Hey, you need to open a door over here. They'll get paid. Not well, but they'll get paid for that service. Right with, a functionary role?
Justin Stoddart 6:26
Yes.
Josh Hackenjos 6:28
Right. Yeah,
Justin Stoddart 6:29
exactly. And then there will be a group that you and I are really trying to cater to, and really help as many as we'll listen. Say, Hey, guys, there's a green pasture over here, right? There's, there's a better there's a bright future if you become a consultant, right or an advisor, and actually give people knowledge beyond just functionary task more fiduciary role. Talk to us about that Josh, kind of your understanding and belief in this, this world where we believe real city just need to go to maintain the margins, first of all, to maintain the value that the client so that they can demand the margins that they're going to want,
Josh Hackenjos 7:07
okay. And I'm going to try to draw a few threads and then tie them all together, cool? So I've been shouting from the mountaintops for a while now as-as have a lot of people in our industry, locally and nationally about the difference between a consultative approach and the sales approach, right, a consultant is going to be somebody who's sitting at the same time at the same side of the table as you look out at the problem. a salesperson is sitting on the other side of the table as you trying to get you to come into the middle. And in my opinion, with my limited experience, I believe that that consultative role is the future for financial real estate world what wealth a real estate brokerage, right. And so, the functionary role, no problem, we're always going to have that. And I guess I wanted to tie it through. If you haven't done this, I just encourage everyone to do this. Go take a stroll through a big shopping mall. Okay, like just go walk through. It's like a wasteland. No offense, anybody here who owns franchises in shopping malls, a lot of mom and pop businesses still in there. But you walk through and I mean, I'm walking through a big empty warehouse. And if I remember, oh, I need paperclips at home, I'm going to jump on to Amazon and buy it real quick. And yet I'm walking through because there's nowhere in that space where I need consultative services, right? Because if I need the functionary thing of just what I need to buy, I'm just going to get because the world has head is heading that direction. Now if I need specific help, and right let's use alike let's say I have a specific business meeting and I need a new shirt and tie thing to make sure I when I can walk into a Nordstrom and I know that I'm going to get approached by that person who's going to step in as a consultant. From the moment I walk in the door. And I'm going to say hey, this is what I need. And there you said no problem. We can get you there, we can help you through it. I'm in their hands. And I'm being taken care of through the entire experience. Because in that instance, I need consultation. Trust me from a fashion standpoint, I need consultation. And yet, when I just need functionary things like paperclips and staples, I can handle that. So there's the line of drawing between
concepts, consultation, and salesperson, I don't need somebody just selling me something across the counter. Now, whether it's real estate or in contracted services when we come in, and we are the expectation setter, we are the consultant of here's how the process is going to go. That is where our true value is. And I look at the people in my world that I pay top dollar to, they are the ones who are advising me and providing the consultative services to explain how I need to proceed in whatever aspect of my life. Cool. So the other thing that you know, I mean, we're, I'm both in the real estate broker world and then in the coaching world, and we talk a lot about consultant versus coach. And is it alright, if I kind of get my distinction there?
Justin Stoddart 10:06
Absolutely. Let me just let me just kind of agree with what you said there about salespeople, it is interesting how Amazon to large degree has taken the place of a lot of different sales people, I think, with the fact that today, people can do video tutorials that really explain the need, when you've got, you know, testimonials afterward and five stars, people can kind of get their questions answered on basic products on the basic selling process. And, you know, a common mentor that you and I have. Chris Suarez, who we were both able to hear from yesterday. You know, he said that, that he believes that the real estate professionals will never be totally replaced. Because wealth is such a large or sorry, real estate is such a large wealth determiner. And I and I agree with them when it comes to fiduciary tasks like you're saying of like advising people on whether they should buy or whether they should not on where they should put an offer to get the home and where they should not. And I think sometimes it's not even questions, my good friend and mentor James Adair, of Sierra Pacific mortgage mentioned, he said, you know, the, when he advises clients, it oftentimes clients will say, James, like, what am I not thinking about here? In other words, like what question Do I not even know to ask that you should be asking and then answering, I think it's really difficult for algorithms, and even low paid labor to perform that function, right? That's a truly fiduciary function, whereas all the sale stuff will be replaced at some point is kind of an Amazon type feature Uber type feature, but that that high level, person that functions at a high level in the knowledge economy, which we live, that's where there's going to be opportunity, that's where people need high-level help. That's where there's going to be a protected real estate advisor, margin, right, where people are going to need to move that they want to stay well paid in this industry.
Josh Hackenjos 11:56
Yeah, and that's
okay. So and there's so many good analysis is here, right? When I need medical counsel, I can go to Web MD, or I can go see my physician, right when we started and built and sold multiple businesses. And when you do that, you need an attorney involved at different points. And I can go Google, how to make sure I stay on the straight and narrow, or I'm going to call my attorney because I value that consultative service. Because there, I'm not going to write the contract, they're going to do it. That's consultation, that means they're going to do the work for me. Because I need that right. You can go on to your Ameritrade account, any kind of goof around a little bit. But if you're trying to fund college or your retirement, like you better have some good counsel to guide you through that. I can just keep on listening to these analogies. But can we agree that there are services in which we need masterful expertise to guide us through the process? And I certainly hope that an average price point above $400,000, we're seeking professional your counsel on these financial decisions in real estate? Yeah, I was just saying that we easily fall in that category, we better be careful not to slip down this path of we're just salespeople not gonna, like salespeople or, you know, we don't need that for these assets.
Justin Stoddart 13:17
I think that's why we see
more than ever clients talking about potential like fee negotiations with their agent because their agent is showing up as one of many, right? Someone who can do the same thing that other either tech companies and or other agents can do. Whereas when you start to position yourself as an advisor, or as a consultant and helping people,
those conversations tend to be less and or off the table. Yeah, you're leading with knowledge that you can't get from anyone else.
Josh Hackenjos 13:46
That's absolutely right.
Okay, can I All right, and this is cool. So can I tie this to the general contractor? All right. So if you've ever had your house remodel, right, you're going to it, it's a nightmare, right? You've got this all these worthy construction workers descending on your house, and we get a bunch of noise in the morning of the parent things off, and there are plywood and blue tarps and all this stuff, right? So the best I knew that I worked for this guy, he was just he was so good with his people. He's a referral based general contractor in the remodeling sector, right? We want to be referral based in real estate because it's just cheaper, like, let's be real. And you work with people who like he was so good. And here's what he would do.
Let's say we're rolling out at eight o'clock, right? You roll out your tools, you're getting everything going, he's going to show up at 745. And he's going to walk up the driveway, and he's going to scoop up the newspaper, and he's got coffee and donuts in the one hand, and he comes in, he knocks on the door and says here's morning paper, and he's got coffee and donuts, he lays down, he remembers the kids names. He remembers the dog's names. He remembers what they were talking about last week when they did this. And he's there just shooting the breeze with the family while they're trying to get up and get the kids school and everything. So that when eight o'clock hits and the swarthy construction workers, me and the other dudes, you know, we put out our cigarettes and we crank up the compressor and plug in the saws and start making all this noise that is disruptive. He has already softened the landing by being there in the kitchen, chatting through. How's everybody doing? Hey, just so you know, here's what's going to happen next. Right? So they never have to ask, it's a failure of your client has to ask you what's next. It's our job to have beat them to it. Right? You wouldn't make the rounds to multiple jobs. So that at least once a week, he was always hitting one of these to show up and do that touch right. We read the power moments recently. Yeah, okay. But ours was taken us through, right. And you and I would mention for as we've been talking about this book. And so this general contractor created this moment, in what would have otherwise been a horrible daily disruption to people's lives, right kick on an air compressor, you light up a saw, like, you know How noisy that isn't disruptive when you're trying to get the kids off to kindergarten. And yet, he would smooth that by setting expectations and creating moments, the only way he could do that was through good leverage. Because if he had to go sit in line at par lumber to pick up the materials for the day, that he couldn't be there, to walk in with the donuts and coffee. Cool. So when we get back to E-Myth, and we get back to real estate brokers, where the instances in which we're doing the equivalent of sitting in line at the lumber yard, instead of being there, setting expectations and smoothing the path for our clients. And this is where when I get into the coaching side of thing, the business this is what I'm focused on is you got to get that leverage on those functionary parts of your business. So you were just there for the golden moments of fiduciary and expectation setting. And at least for this general contractor I used to work for the phone would rent, big kitchen remodels, bathroom remodels, additions, the phone is ringing, he's not having to spend, he's not buying leads, right? This terminology that we use in our industry. I only know his phone just rang because he's loved on his people showed up he set expectations. So I did that parallel. And I'm excited about that parallel because I think there's so much to learn from that. And I mean, I'm working with a couple of general contractors as well talking about this, because, in their business, it's still an issue. And the same conversation can be having real estate. Okay, so there's my like, I've been kind of stewing on this all morning.
So I had to get it out.
Justin Stoddart 17:37
I love it. Gosh, there are so many comparisons. And they're so real to me because it seems I mean, it was just 10 probably short years ago, that I was in that same spot right where I had. Now I wasn't doing remodels, I towards the end, I was actually as a construction market. And I remember, and it wasn't even the construction process in general, wasn't an overall enjoyable one for the clients like it was kind of exciting when they're building a dream home. But there's a lot of uncertainty. And to just be able to assure people, right, I did this great at sometimes other times, I didn't and I learned the hard way. But to be able to like you said to tell people, hey, this is what's happened. This is what's happening. And this is what's going to happen. It just puts people at ease. I knew that when I was a general contractor, I was not doing a good job when the client would call me and say what's happening tomorrow. And you mentioned this, but I remember like specific clients and they would get a point where if a client did that too many times Pretty soon, they're out in the evenings having to run their own job or so they think. And now things are going fine. But because it wasn't communicated to them what was going, they feel like they've got to grab the wheel because no one else is grabbing. And so there's this whole component of, of actually being on it and having a good team on it. And then also communicating it to where people actually know what's happening. And they don't have to worry about it. Right. It's not taking up space in their head.
Josh Hackenjos 18:53
So let me jump on that real quick. The moment that the homeowner in a remodel has to take the rains. And maybe they have to figure out what's next or they have to do something. Suddenly, do you think there may be a question the fee that the general contract, right, because generally, here's the work and then here's their feet? Yeah. Because they're taking on some of the functionary role and some of the steering the ship a little bit, some of that just saying what am I paying this guy for? If I don't even know what's happening next? Can we please link this to the real estate conversation in which why if we are there setting expectations and smoothing the path for everything that's going to happen? Such we're consulting them through this process? If we're doing our job, I don't think the value comes into question. the brilliant guy in our office, I love him, Rick Saidel. And he threw this down years ago, he said cost is only an issue in the absence of value. Right? Cost is only an issue in the absence of a value, whether you're a general contractor tearing apart someone's kitchen, or you're a real estate broker, helping them sell their own. Like we're doing our job, that conversation doesn't come on.
Need systems and organization to make it look effortless, right? It takes wild orchestration and control on our part to make it look easy and make it look effortless.
Justin Stoddart 20:10
I mean, what are some key takeaways, Josh, that people could do? If they're saying like, I know, I need to increase the professionalism in my practice, right? I'm a good real estate agent, for example. But there are some breakdowns in my overall customer experience. As soon as things get busy, right. As soon as things get busy. These touch points kind of go out the window, at what point would you say? I mean, would you recommend At what point do you hire somebody? And this is a whole, like opening up numerous topics, right, which is kind of a subtle invitation for you to come back and pour more value to the audience again. But what advice like what's step one, even in evaluating as to if they need to add leverage?
Josh Hackenjos 20:48
Okay, so one of the fun exercises that I've been doing with some real estate agents, as I'm interviewing them for the position they hold in their current organization. Right, so we go through this process, and we've got some great proprietary
hiring, interviewing and retaining talent, products and curriculum over there, the kW world, and, and, and even some things like my coach comes out of the tech industry, right. So I'm not even coaching within the real estate sector. And so I'm pulling in things from other industries. But one of the really valuable exercises that I've gone through with people who will allow me to is to interview them for the role they currently hold in their own organization and see if they're a good fit for what they're doing. And this is fun. It's kind of terrifying. If you go here and say, Oh, well, it looks like you're doing some activities in your role that are not your area of peak performance, right, like Peter Drucker, like focus on the areas in which was superior performance, and your part will produce outstanding results. Well, we're going to focus on those areas and get rid of everything else. So that would be step one, is to put yourself through a rigorous.
Like, what do you call like a standards conversation for your own role in the organization? I don't care if you're the owner, or you're the listing broker, Cool, let's test you for the role. Are you good at that role? And what are you doing in there that you're not really good at? So that would be step one. And then by doing that, typically, we're going to identify those aspects of the business that could benefit from leverage, because we got to pull you out of that $15 an hour activity and put you into that $200 an hour activity, and then just do more of that, right. It's, I think that's a fun one.
For the people with whom I've worked to allow me to take them through that process, we have a good time doing it. And we usually learn a lot about their businesses. And we're just poking at the weak spots.
Justin Stoddart 22:45
Here's an example that of an exercise that will have agents do that, I think is I was actually reminded of this, when you said this, but have them identify what is their ideal dollar per hour? Like what are the x you want to be making per hour, and compare that versus what their daily task list looks to task list looks like? And then ask them, Okay, sounds like you're doing your own paperwork, would you go to Craigslist, and pay somebody $200 an hour to do your paper? They're like, $200 an hour? Are you kidding me? Well, it's like, well, you just answer the question that, that you probably don't belong in that role. If that's really what you want to get paid. You cannot be focusing on activities that don't pay $200 an hour, you only can be focused on activities, where you are doing $200 an hour activities if you actually want to make that much, right.
Josh Hackenjos 23:29
And I would say I would argue that I'm a slow money guy like I believe in that long, slow, you know, success is sequential, not simultaneous. And so there are some areas where we can get fuzzy on this, like, a lot of people say okay, well then I'm going to just pick a phone, dial dial dial, well, you caught me today, I'm in the middle of this morning of swapping out a couple of water heaters, houses here in my neighborhood. And I do a lot like the company's community Empire. My wife owns a business in the yoga world, I do a lot of community stuff, we do a lot of stuff together around music and health and wellness and things like that. And I would argue that there are instances where I'm just hanging out with my neighbors, and I'm doing that $200 an hour activity, because I'm investing in my community and long term return on investment there, that I get to work with cool people who I like working with, who are grateful for my level of service, and I don't have to go chase it off. You know, I don't buy leads, I just invest in my community. So I would say if I'm out helping my neighbor doing something, I may be doing my highest dollar per hour activity. So just be careful about what we categorize as our key activity. Because, you know, I don't do that with them, like, the ulterior motive of like, well, I'm gonna do this and then get it's just No, I believe that if we invest in our communities, we will be rewarded with trust. And if we have a business that requires flourish in that environment.
Yeah, like I'm I'm pulling weeds from my neighbor, I'm maybe doing $200 an hour.
Justin Stoddart 25:07
Interesting.
All right, Josh. Josh, last question. Here's our signature question that you're unprepared for. But I know a guy like you since you are a big thinker, you belong on the thing bigger real estate show, what's something that you do want to on a regular basis, to think bigger, to intentionally position yourself to be a big thinker to expand your own possibilities.
Josh Hackenjos 25:31
So this is so funny because here's what I should do every day. And then what I actually do
and, you know, I'll just I think my life has been changed through a couple of
health and wellness decisions. Both you can ask a couple of the other guys who you've had on the show as well about this. We've worked with a specific boxing trainer I'll give them a call out Ben Metts down in Portland city boxing if you want a mindset coach, go get punched in the face first thing in the morning. And everything else in your day is easy to do first thing in the morning curled up in a fetal position crying that's how I start my day.
Unknown Speaker 26:15
So call Ben Metts and set it up. But I would just say around some of those things getting the mindset of the limitations that we put in our way that is purely mental like you can do one more push up you can run one more lap The only thing stopping you is mindset. And when I learned that from this lovely dude down there, Ben mats that became applicable in my world and I feel like I've seen the biggest reward and return from that from anything else just from realizing that the boundaries in my way will primarily mental and so yeah, so a big thanks to that guy but I would say and I like I said I try to get there you know, I miss my yoga routine a lot of days because I just don't like a cheeseburger a milkshake, but
Josh Hackenjos 27:04
I'm trying to hit that routine.
Justin Stoddart 27:06
I love it man that's an answer I haven't heard before I love that. Start off by getting punched in the face every day and then everything else seems easier. That's awesome.
Josh Hackenjos 27:13
Everybody's got their think
Justin Stoddart 27:14
I love it. Well thank you want to thank you so much for for the value that you poured into the audience today and into me always do and for those of the audience that is interested in seeing content with Josh, you can find them on social media. You can also email them if you want to talk specifically about his group coaching. Josh, joshhackenjos.com. He's got some great stuff to offer people. I know he helps a lot of people. So I want to thank you again, Josh, for being such a valuable guest and such a good friend. Appreciate you, man, very much.
Josh Hackenjos 27:41
Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on here.
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Justin Stoddart
What is Think Bigger Real Estate?
The road to success for real estate agents is well-marked. The road to significance is not. Here, we help you to Think Bigger than just your business. We inspire you to seek success AND significance, income AND impact. We do that by interviewing the biggest thinkers and highest achievers in the real estate industry, extracting the secrets to having it all.