[Ian Landsman]: Alright, we're back! Episode 3.
[Aaron]: We are back and I think we're both in different locations.
[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
[Aaron]: I made it back home to Texas and so I'm back in my normal setup. Where are you?
[Ian Landsman]: I'm in the Outer Banks of North Carolina.
[Aaron]: Okay.
[Ian Landsman]: So yeah, we've been in different spots every episode, I feel like. So I don't
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: know. It might be
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: hard
[Aaron]: think
[Ian Landsman]: to keep
[Aaron]: that's
[Ian Landsman]: this
[Aaron]: actually
[Ian Landsman]: up. We're
[Aaron]: true,
[Ian Landsman]: gonna have to
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: keep traveling.
[Aaron]: Yeah, so what's in the Outer Banks? This is not a part of the country I'm familiar
[Aaron]: with.
[Ian Landsman]: So this is my first time here. I've never been here before. It's really great.
[Ian Landsman]: It's, we normally go to Martha's Vineyard kind of almost every year. And this
[Ian Landsman]: year my family was going down here. So my brother and my cousin, we decided
[Ian Landsman]: to tag along with them. So we're all here. It's great. Like beach right on the
[Ian Landsman]: ocean, or beach on the ocean, house on the ocean. You know, ice cream and
[Ian Landsman]: bunch of kids running around and this huge house with the pool and the beach
[Ian Landsman]: and. a million rooms and everything.
[Aaron]: And is the beach on the ocean or is the beach in town? Hopefully the beach
[Ian Landsman]: The
[Aaron]: is
[Ian Landsman]: beaches,
[Aaron]: also on the ocean.
[Ian Landsman]: it's
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: on the ocean.
[Aaron]: Okay, good.
[Ian Landsman]: Although we have this hurricane, I guess, coming or something. I don't know.
[Ian Landsman]: So we'll see. I don't think it's going to hit
[Aaron]: Oh yeah!
[Ian Landsman]: us, but I think it's going to be like 50 mile an hour winds and things like
[Ian Landsman]: that. So.
[Aaron]: Yeah, I think I just saw that this morning. So now is the is the weather there?
[Aaron]: Is it 108 like it is in Dallas or is it OK?
[Ian Landsman]: No, it's all right. It's been in the 80s, so it's been good beach weather.
[Ian Landsman]: It's been
[Aaron]: That's
[Ian Landsman]: warm
[Aaron]: amazing.
[Ian Landsman]: and very humid, so kids have been wanting to get in the water and all that.
[Ian Landsman]: That's been good. Then hit the pool. I never really had a setup quite like
[Ian Landsman]: this before. It's nice, because we have the beach, obviously, out there. And
[Ian Landsman]: then you come in from the beach, and there's the pool and the house. So you
[Ian Landsman]: start at the beach, then you hit the pool, kind of like fully cleanse and
[Ian Landsman]: refresh, and then... Boom, you're in the house hanging out. I mean, this is like
[Ian Landsman]: the theater room. I watched messy in here the other night. I'll be watching
[Ian Landsman]: messy in here tonight again.
[Aaron]: Amazing.
[Ian Landsman]: So that's really
[Aaron]: OK,
[Ian Landsman]: cool.
[Aaron]: so I have I have opinions about the beach and
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: the pool.
[Ian Landsman]: Oh, interesting.
[Aaron]: The beach, the beach is kind of frustrating to me because the way that I've always done
[Aaron]: it is you pack up all your stuff, you schlep it out there onto the beach. It's, you
[Aaron]: know, it's 100 degrees. You're covered
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: in sand. You get out there and then you're expected to just sit there in the salt
[Aaron]: and the sun for hours.
[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehe
[Aaron]: and then you gotta walk all the way back to the house for lunch.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: I love the pool. I love going to the beach and sitting in a pool. That is my absolute
[Aaron]: favorite. You can wander outside, hop in the pool, wander back inside. I just don't
[Aaron]: like- I don't like packing it up and walking down the boardwalk.
[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehe
[Aaron]: Does that make me an old man or just lazy or what does that say?
[Ian Landsman]: No, but let me tell you, I used to be like you, but I discovered the secrets
[Ian Landsman]: of the beach and I will share with the audience the
[Aaron]: Okay.
[Ian Landsman]: secrets of the beach, okay? So this is actually why we ended up going to
[Ian Landsman]: Martha's Vineyard when the kids were little and for like 10 years or so. Because
[Ian Landsman]: one of the big keys to the beach, so out, like the dragging yourself to the beach,
[Ian Landsman]: forget it, it's the worst thing ever, especially once you have kids,
[Aaron]: Forget
[Ian Landsman]: the
[Aaron]: it.
[Ian Landsman]: kids,
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: all the stuff,
[Aaron]: yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: the kids
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: are running around, the whole thing's terrible. It's like you're just suicidal
[Ian Landsman]: after you just
[Aaron]: Yes.
[Ian Landsman]: walk to the beach, you're like, that's it. So. You can't do that. Don't ever
[Ian Landsman]: do that. You gotta buy a truck. Okay. You have
[Aaron]: Oh
[Ian Landsman]: a truck. All right.
[Aaron]: This is a low barrier to entry. You gotta buy a truck.
[Ian Landsman]: Listen,
[Aaron]: Okay, yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: you need
[Aaron]: no,
[Ian Landsman]: a car.
[Aaron]: keep going.
[Ian Landsman]: This
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: is America. Everybody uses their trucks as like mini vans.
[Aaron]: Okay,
[Ian Landsman]: It's fine.
[Aaron]: okay,
[Ian Landsman]: You
[Aaron]: yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: have a truck.
[Aaron]: for sure, keep going.
[Ian Landsman]: You could also do...
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: No.
[Aaron]: thought it was gonna be like, pack an extra sandwich or something, but yeah, buy
[Aaron]: a truck. All right, keep
[Ian Landsman]: Buy
[Aaron]: going.
[Ian Landsman]: a truck. All right. Truck is best. You could use SUV. or even a mini van
[Ian Landsman]: with four wheel drive, but you know, a truck is best for a lot of reasons,
[Ian Landsman]: which I can tell you about. You get a truck, you find a beach that lets
[Ian Landsman]: you drive on the beach, okay?
[Aaron]: Okay.
[Ian Landsman]: This is the solution to all your problems,
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: because,
[Aaron]: see where this is going.
[Ian Landsman]: yes, because, right, so everything's in the back of the truck, right?
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: You drive to the beach, you don't have to stay near the water. So if you
[Ian Landsman]: wanna save money, if it's like, beach vacation can be quite
[Aaron]: Oh,
[Ian Landsman]: expensive
[Aaron]: I see.
[Ian Landsman]: if you wanna be on the water, right? So forget that. You stay
[Aaron]: Forget
[Ian Landsman]: inland.
[Aaron]: that, just buy a truck, yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: You buy a truck with your savings. You drive onto the beach. Okay. You park your
[Ian Landsman]: truck an inch
[Aaron]: For
[Ian Landsman]: from the
[Aaron]: sure.
[Ian Landsman]: water. You push all the stuff out the back. It's there. You didn't carry
[Ian Landsman]: anything. You have a huge ass cooler with tons of food. If you have little
[Ian Landsman]: kids, all right, it's going to get gross for a second, but you have a little
[Ian Landsman]: portable potty that's
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: got the little Ziploc baggy thing. They can go
[Aaron]: Oh,
[Ian Landsman]: to
[Aaron]: that's
[Ian Landsman]: the bathroom
[Aaron]: horrifying.
[Ian Landsman]: right there. You don't have to take
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: them to the bathroom back anywhere. And when they're done. tile everything into
[Ian Landsman]: the truck, it takes two seconds. You drive off the beach. Most of the drive
[Ian Landsman]: on beaches, you usually end up with a huge area of beach all to yourself.
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: It's the best thing ever. It's fabulous.
[Aaron]: Okay.
[Ian Landsman]: So that's my recommendation.
[Aaron]: Okay, one fatal flaw is you have to buy a new vehicle, but other than that, it's
[Aaron]: flawless. I guess, you know, if you're flying, you could rent a truck
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: when you get there.
[Ian Landsman]: all these
[Aaron]: So
[Ian Landsman]: places
[Aaron]: that's
[Ian Landsman]: have
[Aaron]: something.
[Ian Landsman]: rental jeeps and trucks
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: and things like that. So you could rent it. Um, and then, Hey, a lot of
[Ian Landsman]: people now that just have, I mean, you're in Texas. You told me there's
[Ian Landsman]: no trucks down there. Everybody's got a truck.
[Aaron]: Oh, everybody's got a truck. Yeah, everybody's
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: got a truck. I could
[Ian Landsman]: exactly.
[Aaron]: borrow a truck from anyone around here. So here's something I saw on Twitter that kind
[Aaron]: of blew my mind. You're on this trip and you're like, hey,
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: I'm gonna go to this amazing little roadside restaurant that nobody's ever heard
[Aaron]: of. It's called
[Ian Landsman]: Hahaha
[Aaron]: a Waffle House. I've never been before. What, you've never been to a Waffle
[Ian Landsman]: I've
[Aaron]: House?
[Ian Landsman]: never been to Waffle House. This has been on my list of things to do for
[Ian Landsman]: a very long time. I don't know if I've ever even seen a Waffle House. It's
[Ian Landsman]: crazy,
[Aaron]: What?
[Ian Landsman]: like I know. It's not even like I've been avoiding them. I don't even believe
[Ian Landsman]: I've had the opportunity because usually I would take the opportunity out of
[Ian Landsman]: a thing like that I've been waiting for forever because it's like Waffle
[Ian Landsman]: House, it's such a thing.
[Aaron]: Do they not have them
[Ian Landsman]: No,
[Aaron]: in the North?
[Ian Landsman]: Northeast
[Aaron]: Really?
[Ian Landsman]: has no Waffle Houses that I've ever seen. So, yeah. Waffle house.
[Aaron]: What did
[Ian Landsman]: I
[Aaron]: you
[Ian Landsman]: was
[Aaron]: think?
[Ian Landsman]: very impressed. So it's, I mean, I'm the day I tweeted that you said you had
[Ian Landsman]: gone there for breakfast. So there you
[Aaron]: I had
[Ian Landsman]: go.
[Aaron]: gotten
[Ian Landsman]: It's like,
[Aaron]: it
[Ian Landsman]: yeah,
[Aaron]: for breakfast. Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: it's a regular staple, but it was great. It's
[Aaron]: It
[Ian Landsman]: like,
[Aaron]: really
[Ian Landsman]: there's no vegetables.
[Aaron]: is.
[Ian Landsman]: There's like, there's waffles and that's it. And like, you know, sandwiches
[Aaron]: No vegetables,
[Ian Landsman]: and hash
[Aaron]: waffles.
[Ian Landsman]: browns.
[Aaron]: Put it on my tombstone, which
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: unfortunately may be coming soon if I keep going to Waffle House. But yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: That was good.
[Aaron]: it's like an American classic.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: Okay,
[Ian Landsman]: I was surprised.
[Aaron]: so Waffle House is everywhere down here. They also like weirdly never close. And
[Ian Landsman]: Right, I saw
[Aaron]: they
[Ian Landsman]: that.
[Aaron]: have, I don't know if they have a super robust supply chain or what. But there's
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: like a way that you can measure how bad a natural disaster is. And it's like called
[Aaron]: the Waffle House Index.
[Ian Landsman]: Ha
[Aaron]: And it's
[Ian Landsman]: ha
[Aaron]: like, how quickly did Waffle House reopen slash did they ever close? It's very
[Aaron]: interesting. I don't know the full details, but Waffle Houses are everywhere down
[Aaron]: here. I went on, uh, I guess that was, would have been Friday, um,
[Ian Landsman]: Mm,
[Aaron]: for
[Ian Landsman]: yeah.
[Aaron]: breakfast. So every, every three weeks we have this group of guys that gets together
[Aaron]: and goes, goes to breakfast. Um, it's like. The only time everyone is available is,
[Aaron]: you know, 7 a.m. on Friday morning. So there are like, there are probably eight
[Aaron]: of us in this group. And yeah, it's awesome. And
[Ian Landsman]: real world.
[Aaron]: we usually, we usually go to this place called John's Cafe, which is terrible.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: But when there are only, when there are five or fewer of us that
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: RSVP, yes, we go to Waffle House because Waffle House has, you know, those tables that
[Aaron]: you cannot move that only
[Ian Landsman]: I noticed
[Aaron]: seat
[Ian Landsman]: that.
[Aaron]: four people. Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: Yes.
[Aaron]: And so we'll go to Waffle House and the food. is incredible. It is like, it's the
[Aaron]: dirtiest, dineriest place you've ever been,
[Ian Landsman]: It
[Aaron]: but the
[Ian Landsman]: is.
[Aaron]: food is amazing. And they like, you ask for eggs, soft scrambled, and they make
[Aaron]: eggs, soft scrambled. Like they know how to make eggs. It's, it's great. I love
[Aaron]: Waffle House.
[Ian Landsman]: Well, I love those places. See that it's like, I'm sure this goes into that
[Ian Landsman]: index is like, there's basically like what, like 10 ingredients on the whole
[Ian Landsman]: menu, you know, it's just like the same things just like ordered differently
[Ian Landsman]: and, and so like, yeah, they probably have an easy time reopening and they
[Ian Landsman]: only have to know how to do a few things. You can get a chef. It's not
[Ian Landsman]: like they're making a bunch of like a regular diet. And in Northeast, we
[Ian Landsman]: have tons of regular diners
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: and it's just like, they have 400 items. There's like pot roast and eggs
[Ian Landsman]: and whatever sandwiches and pasta and whatever it does,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: all these different things. And usually it's all. Gross. And I want us
[Ian Landsman]: to get Waffle Houses. I need Waffle Houses. The other thing, so I need Waffle
[Ian Landsman]: Houses. These are my big things from the South. I need Waffle Houses and I
[Ian Landsman]: need Brew Thrus. Do you have Brew Thrus there?
[Aaron]: A brew through? I think
[Ian Landsman]: Yes.
[Aaron]: I know what that is, but I don't, I don't know if that's a brand name. That's not
[Ian Landsman]: It's
[Aaron]: something
[Ian Landsman]: like,
[Aaron]: we say down here.
[Ian Landsman]: okay, it's like, uh, it's like a car wash. All
[Aaron]: Okay.
[Ian Landsman]: right. Like a drive through car wash. But when you drive through it, instead
[Ian Landsman]: of your car getting washed, there's just refrigerators along the side
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: where you get beer and you just drive through. It's unbelievable. I'm like,
[Ian Landsman]: what genius thought of this? Like, I don't know why we don't have these
[Ian Landsman]: in the Northeast. Like just drive through and get your beer.
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: It's amazing.
[Aaron]: that's I didn't realize that was something that wasn't everywhere. Yeah, we have
[Ian Landsman]: No.
[Aaron]: I think we call them in Texas, we have a few beer barns drive through beer
[Ian Landsman]: Okay.
[Aaron]: barns.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: And then I do remember in. So I went to I went to college at Texas A&M, which is
[Aaron]: down in, you know, college station small, small town.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: We had a drive through margarita barn. And
[Ian Landsman]: Ooh.
[Aaron]: so they would Yeah, so you could drive through and get all kinds of different margaritas.
[Aaron]: And for the dear listener, You would not drink them until you got home, obviously,
[Ian Landsman]: Obviously.
[Aaron]: because they would put tape over the lid and you couldn't open it. It was impossible.
[Aaron]: There was a little piece of tape on it and it was like, oh, I guess I'll have to
[Ian Landsman]: How
[Aaron]: wait
[Ian Landsman]: would you
[Aaron]: until
[Ian Landsman]: ever get
[Aaron]: I get
[Ian Landsman]: through
[Aaron]: home
[Ian Landsman]: that? Right.
[Aaron]: to open
[Ian Landsman]: You need
[Aaron]: this
[Ian Landsman]: scissors.
[Aaron]: because you need scissors. Yeah, so, yeah, that's funny. Yeah, Waffle House and
[Aaron]: Beer Barns and a truck on every corner. That's,
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: you got it. That's the South.
[Ian Landsman]: There
[Aaron]: Good
[Ian Landsman]: we
[Aaron]: to
[Ian Landsman]: go.
[Aaron]: be back, baby. I love
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: being home.
[Ian Landsman]: I know. I don't get down to like this part like southy south that much.
[Ian Landsman]: Like it's only every few years. Like I sometimes end up in Florida or a place
[Ian Landsman]: like that, which is sort of its own weird thing. I don't know.
[Aaron]: It is its own weird thing, yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: Don't put that, don't ascribe that to us. I don't want Florida.
[Ian Landsman]: Right. It doesn't feel like North Carolina Virginia type South to me. I
[Ian Landsman]: don't know
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: seems different. So yeah, it's been great. How was your drive back? Because
[Ian Landsman]: you were making the long haul there.
[Aaron]: I was, yeah. Made the long haul, made it, made it back. Listened to book two of the
[Aaron]: Three Body Problem trilogy, the
[Ian Landsman]: I
[Aaron]: entire
[Ian Landsman]: wanna do that.
[Aaron]: way. Incredible. It's so, so good.
[Ian Landsman]: I'm excited
[Aaron]: It is unlike any sci-fi book I've ever read.
[Ian Landsman]: Hmm
[Aaron]: So it's very, very good. And the second book has this, has this like, maybe literary
[Aaron]: device that is extremely, it just, It keeps your mind spinning the entire time
[Aaron]: of like,
[Ian Landsman]: Hmm.
[Aaron]: how would I, what would I do in this situation? How would I, it's like almost like
[Aaron]: a logic puzzle that the characters are playing through. And
[Ian Landsman]: Interesting.
[Aaron]: it's very good. So,
[Ian Landsman]: Hmm.
[Aaron]: highly recommended. I made two stops. I stopped in Cleveland again. And then I stopped
[Aaron]: in Little Rock, Arkansas, about four and a half hours from home. I thought I could
[Aaron]: power through. But man, when you're driving and the sleepies hit, you don't wanna
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: battle the sleepies on the road because it takes two seconds and you're gone.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, four hours is still, it's a pretty good hall of the power through
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: extremes, tiredness. Yeah, that's a, that's a good stop. And you didn't have
[Ian Landsman]: the kids and stuff with you. So it's like,
[Aaron]: Right.
[Ian Landsman]: uh, whatever, it just pop in and it's
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: easy.
[Aaron]: Yeah, exactly. So I'm back feeling much better being home in my space with a little
[Aaron]: bit of routine. Kids start school, I think maybe next week. And life is going
[Aaron]: to be totally different.
[Ian Landsman]: know this has been like the worst summer ever in terms of like I had all
[Ian Landsman]: these plans for things I was gonna do this summer and just like the kids
[Ian Landsman]: had so many activities it was just constant running around between three
[Ian Landsman]: kids and only two adults and we're both every day like dropping somebody
[Ian Landsman]: off picking somebody up or it was brutal and just so it's just so distracting
[Ian Landsman]: obviously then when you're just taking out of your zone like one of the kids
[Ian Landsman]: for every other Every other day for like three weeks had a two hour camp
[Ian Landsman]: that was like noon to two or something,
[Aaron]: That is
[Ian Landsman]: just like
[Aaron]: not enough.
[Ian Landsman]: crazy stuff.
[Aaron]: Two hours
[Ian Landsman]: You know?
[Aaron]: is
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: not enough.
[Ian Landsman]: It was crazy.
[Aaron]: Like you barely make it home before you have to go
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: back.
[Ian Landsman]: Exactly. So my whole summer just totally blew up on my, um, productivity
[Ian Landsman]: that I was expecting, but that's all right. We'll get everybody back in school
[Ian Landsman]: and get back to the normal grind, which will be nice.
[Aaron]: Yeah, exactly. You wanna do some follow ups? We have a
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: few.
[Ian Landsman]: let's do some follow up. All right, well the first one is, immediately after
[Ian Landsman]: the last episode, Nuno wrote back that in Volt, you can actually put the
[Ian Landsman]: blade template on the top of the file. So if you haven't seen Volt, it's
[Ian Landsman]: a single page livewire blade file combo package. And so you can put the
[Ian Landsman]: blade file on top and then the PHP livewire logic on the bottom, which also
[Ian Landsman]: then lets you... get rid of the PHP tag then. So, because you don't need
[Ian Landsman]: the ending PHP tag, you start
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: the PHP tag after the bleed template. I don't know, what do you think about
[Ian Landsman]: this? I tried it out, I wasn't
[Aaron]: Love
[Ian Landsman]: sure, I don't know. I think
[Aaron]: it.
[Ian Landsman]: I like it, but it's sort
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: of,
[Aaron]: love it because that's the
[Ian Landsman]: it's
[Aaron]: way
[Ian Landsman]: kind of
[Aaron]: that
[Ian Landsman]: like
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: Vue,
[Aaron]: do my
[Ian Landsman]: right?
[Aaron]: view single file
[Ian Landsman]: Right,
[Aaron]: components
[Ian Landsman]: yeah.
[Aaron]: is I would always put the template tag at the top and the script tag at the bottom.
[Aaron]: And now people are coming into my space and telling me I gotta do script setup and
[Aaron]: I gotta put script setup and do the composition API and nah man. I put the template
[Aaron]: at the top,
[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
[Aaron]: the script at the bottom. So this for Volt, this feels good to me.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, people seem very excited about that tweet. So if you don't know about
[Ian Landsman]: that and you've been trying to give that a shot and see how you like it,
[Ian Landsman]: all right, we have another one, right?
[Aaron]: Yep, we got another one. On the first episode, we talked about how Tobias' indexing
[Aaron]: book, his landing page, was really, really beautiful. And turns out it's the same
[Aaron]: designer that has done all the new filament stuff. And I think he's full time
[Aaron]: on the filament team
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: now. His name is Hassan Zaharina. Close. I definitely know it's Hassan. We'll put the
[Aaron]: link to his website in the show notes. But he's done the sushi landing page, which
[Aaron]: is Caleb Porzio's array driver for Eloquent. He's done Tobias' indexing book,
[Aaron]: he's done filament, so he's done all kinds of great stuff. And I've seen him around
[Aaron]: the community a lot, I just didn't know that he did Tobias' book, so I wanted
[Aaron]: to follow up with that and give him a shout out for that.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, his work's really interesting. I like it's kind of fresh and different. And
[Ian Landsman]: I always like
[Aaron]: It
[Ian Landsman]: having
[Aaron]: is kind of
[Ian Landsman]: designers
[Aaron]: fresh, right?
[Ian Landsman]: in the mix, new designers in the mix, designers in the Laravel sort of family
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: and sphere is always good to have. And yeah, the Susie Page stands out a
[Ian Landsman]: lot for sure and the new filament
[Aaron]: I feel like
[Ian Landsman]: site is great.
[Aaron]: his design is a little bit more fun and lively. It's a little bit bubbly.
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: And it's really, really good. I just love that everyone has a different. This is
[Aaron]: very different than the stuff that the Tailwind Labs team puts out. And I like
[Aaron]: that. They're both good, but I like that this is a little bit more fun and bubbly.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, yeah, a little different. The colors, colors too are definitely kind
[Ian Landsman]: of not your standard.
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm
[Ian Landsman]: You know, what's going, what's hot lately of it's black and white or it's,
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: you know,
[Aaron]: BG blue to BG purple
[Ian Landsman]: right.
[Aaron]: gradient. Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: That kind of thing. Like, so a little, little different there stands
[Aaron]: So if,
[Ian Landsman]: out.
[Aaron]: as a reminder, if you wanna get, shout it out to upwards of 15 to 20 people, send
[Aaron]: us mail. We have mailbag,
[Ian Landsman]: Hey!
[Aaron]: we will read it out on the air. So I forget where to send it, so I'm gonna throw
[Aaron]: it over to Ian. Where do people send their mail?
[Ian Landsman]: Uh, mostly technical pod at gmail.com.
[Aaron]: Oh good,
[Ian Landsman]: I believe
[Aaron]: that was, I put you on
[Ian Landsman]: pretty
[Aaron]: the spot,
[Ian Landsman]: sure.
[Aaron]: that was perfect, yeah. Pretty
[Ian Landsman]: Pretty
[Aaron]: sure.
[Ian Landsman]: sure that's true. I'm pretty
[Aaron]: Also,
[Ian Landsman]: sure
[Aaron]: also
[Ian Landsman]: it'll be in
[Aaron]: Twitter.
[Ian Landsman]: the show notes for
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: sure.
[Aaron]: it'll be
[Ian Landsman]: So
[Aaron]: in the show
[Ian Landsman]: just
[Aaron]: notes for sure, for
[Ian Landsman]: check
[Aaron]: sure.
[Ian Landsman]: there just in case, but I'm pretty sure that's correct.
[Aaron]: Yeah, that sounds right. So thanks for
[Ian Landsman]: We'll
[Aaron]: those
[Ian Landsman]: get
[Aaron]: followups.
[Ian Landsman]: this down.
[Aaron]: Yeah. All right, where do you wanna go next?
[Ian Landsman]: Well, we'll go into Laravel stuff a little bit earlier. How about that?
[Ian Landsman]: Let's say we get some under our belt.
[Aaron]: Wow.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: Something different We got this lift package
[Aaron]: Yeah, so I saw this. Tell me, one, tell me what it is, and then tell me your opinions
[Aaron]: on it.
[Ian Landsman]: Um, hold on. Let me just get, see what we're doing. You get to watch us run
[Ian Landsman]: the show here because I want to have Uh it up in front of me. Why is this
[Ian Landsman]: not working?
[Ian Landsman]: vacation podcasting is not ideal.
[Aaron]: We're talking Wendell Adriel's Laravel
[Ian Landsman]: That's what
[Aaron]: lift.
[Ian Landsman]: I'm looking for. See, you got the
[Aaron]: Hey,
[Ian Landsman]: name.
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: I wanted
[Aaron]: got
[Ian Landsman]: his last
[Aaron]: it.
[Ian Landsman]: name.
[Aaron]: Come
[Ian Landsman]: I knew it's
[Aaron]: on.
[Ian Landsman]: Wendell. I was thinking about his Wendell, but not, not...
[Aaron]: You didn't know it was Wendell. I knew it was Wendell.
[Ian Landsman]: I knew it was Wendell,
[Aaron]: You're you're
[Ian Landsman]: but
[Aaron]: over there fumbling in the in the messy
[Ian Landsman]: I know.
[Aaron]: room. You
[Ian Landsman]: All
[Aaron]: don't know anything. OK, you have
[Ian Landsman]: right,
[Aaron]: it.
[Ian Landsman]: so
[Aaron]: You have the GitHub pulled up.
[Ian Landsman]: I've got it. So yeah, so Wendell's
[Aaron]: OK.
[Ian Landsman]: package. Wendell, just a great name, by the way. I don't
[Aaron]: Great
[Ian Landsman]: think I've ever
[Aaron]: name.
[Ian Landsman]: met a Wendell in person,
[Aaron]: No,
[Ian Landsman]: but
[Aaron]: great
[Ian Landsman]: I love
[Aaron]: name.
[Ian Landsman]: that name.
[Aaron]: Congrats, Wendell, great name.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, yeah, he hit the lottery of the...
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: the naming,
[Aaron]: seriously.
[Ian Landsman]: parents did a good job there. Yeah, so Lyft is this kind of crazy package
[Ian Landsman]: that lets you define a whole bunch of stuff about eloquent models with attributes.
[Ian Landsman]: And
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: I just have a lot of thoughts here, but
[Aaron]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
[Ian Landsman]: a lot of thoughts. But first of all, before we even get into the package,
[Ian Landsman]: what's your just general take on attributes
[Aaron]: Yeah, see,
[Ian Landsman]: in PHP?
[Aaron]: this is where we're gonna end up.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: You know, Ian, I don't love him. I really don't.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, that was my take initially as well.
[Aaron]: Initially, wow, this is a setup for conflict that makes good
[Ian Landsman]: Possibly,
[Aaron]: radio. So
[Ian Landsman]: possibly.
[Aaron]: here's the thing, one, I'm not familiar with them. And so I'm super aware that what
[Aaron]: looks good to me is 70% what I'm familiar with. And I think that that's everybody. And
[Aaron]: so I'm looking at all of these attributes. Even back in the day for a hot minute, there
[Aaron]: was, let's do all of our routing. by putting little attributes over the controller
[Aaron]: methods. And I was like, no way,
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: I hate that,
[Ian Landsman]: no, I don't
[Aaron]: hideous.
[Ian Landsman]: know that's a terrible idea.
[Aaron]: Yeah, so hated that. Attributes in general still seem foreign to me. And I think
[Aaron]: part of what I don't like about it is it feels like, man, it feels, maybe it feels
[Aaron]: like you scatter one thing that used to be centralized into a bunch of different
[Aaron]: places. like the routing is a good example. I like to have a routes file. I don't
[Aaron]: want to have like my route definitions littered all over the place.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: Um, and I also, maybe this is a knowledge gap. I don't fully know how they work and what
[Aaron]: all can be influenced. And I don't think I would remember to check like, Oh, you
[Aaron]: got to go check the annotation or the, or the attribute or whatever. And so I don't
[Aaron]: know. And he's the, you can like pass arguments. And so then you're like, I don't
[Aaron]: know. Okay,
[Ian Landsman]: Hahaha
[Aaron]: that, yeah, I'll stop there. Tell me your journey with attributes.
[Ian Landsman]: Well, I haven't had like the full journey yet, I guess, but I definitely
[Ian Landsman]: didn't like when people were trying to do it with the annotations and like,
[Ian Landsman]: it's like a comment that has all the stuff
[Aaron]: Yes.
[Ian Landsman]: in it. Like I hate the comments with the stuff in it. I don't want to comment
[Aaron]: Oh, so
[Ian Landsman]: at all.
[Aaron]: like
[Ian Landsman]: And I don't
[Aaron]: the
[Ian Landsman]: want comments with stuff in it.
[Aaron]: PHP Doc Blocks, that version?
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. Like I don't
[Aaron]: Okay.
[Ian Landsman]: like DocBlocks in general. And I don't like, I mean, at some point there was
[Ian Landsman]: something you do in there, right? And like the IDE
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: would like do certain stuff with it or whatever. It was like, even like
[Ian Landsman]: type. management stuff like that, which obviously is a common use case,
[Ian Landsman]: but I just hate that. I don't like the syntax. It's so it's a big like eyesore
[Ian Landsman]: in your way of reading the code. So I definitely prefer this over those, but
[Ian Landsman]: I agree. Like when I first saw the attributes in general, I was like, I don't
[Ian Landsman]: know. But here and there, there's been more use cases like LiveWire uses them
[Ian Landsman]: pretty heavily in LiveWire
[Aaron]: They
[Ian Landsman]: 3.
[Aaron]: do.
[Ian Landsman]: A lot of the spaddy packages use them now in different ways and kind of
[Ian Landsman]: I'm kind of seeing it. I mean, there's definitely the big limitation is that
[Ian Landsman]: you can't like do anything dynamic in them. And that does
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: sometimes cause some oddities like with translation
[Aaron]: Hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: strings and things like that where like you need to be able to do something
[Ian Landsman]: dynamically. So there are some, like even in this package,
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: like if you use it for a rule and you pass a string, like you can't translate
[Ian Landsman]: that string. So if you want to override
[Aaron]: Got
[Ian Landsman]: like
[Aaron]: it.
[Ian Landsman]: the rules message, you have no way to translate it. Um, which
[Aaron]: Got
[Ian Landsman]: is semi
[Aaron]: it.
[Ian Landsman]: edge case, but there's a fair amount of apps that are translated. So there
[Ian Landsman]: are, there is stuff like
[Aaron]: Hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: that, but I don't know for, for eloquent, I do kind of feel like this is
[Ian Landsman]: pretty interesting because it's like, instead of looking three or four or five
[Ian Landsman]: places in the file for different configurations, I can just
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: see them all here and they're like, so it's sort of like a, in that way,
[Ian Landsman]: like a routes file, it's like, I can just go to this one place. and see
[Aaron]: Oh man,
[Ian Landsman]: everything applied
[Aaron]: you got
[Ian Landsman]: to the
[Aaron]: me.
[Ian Landsman]: name instead of going to like the different methods that do the relationship
[Ian Landsman]: and then do the type and like whatever, do the rule
[Aaron]: Okay, so give
[Ian Landsman]: and
[Aaron]: us
[Ian Landsman]: like
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: all
[Aaron]: two
[Ian Landsman]: this stuff.
[Aaron]: second overview of what's happening in this package so people know.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so in the package, a lot of the stuff you can define in Eloquent already
[Ian Landsman]: through like methods or different ways like that. You can or like in properties
[Ian Landsman]: like fillable, the fillable property and things like that. You can just
[Ian Landsman]: do as attributes right next to the public property. So. you can just have
[Ian Landsman]: that it's fillable. It's like a fillable attribute. And then there's a cast
[Ian Landsman]: attribute if you want to cast it. So these aren't, you don't have to put
[Ian Landsman]: this name property in the fillable array. And then again, in the cast thing. And
[Ian Landsman]: then if you have a relationship based
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: on it, it can, that could be defined here. So you can have all these things
[Ian Landsman]: in one spot. You can have your validation rules there. So you don't have like
[Ian Landsman]: the separate rules array and all that. So it's interesting. I don't, so
[Ian Landsman]: I haven't even used it yet. I've just been sort of following along and
[Ian Landsman]: every day he's kind of adding new
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: attributes. But I feel like there's something here. I wouldn't mind, there's
[Ian Landsman]: like a technique I like to call something being outwelled. I wouldn't
[Aaron]: Huh?
[Ian Landsman]: mind it maybe being outwelled by the man himself because, you
[Aaron]: Ha
[Ian Landsman]: know, he
[Aaron]: ha
[Ian Landsman]: always has a great vision on interfaces
[Aaron]: Yeah He does
[Ian Landsman]: and APIs
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm
[Ian Landsman]: and things. And so... There's probably some stuff he might be able to, uh,
[Ian Landsman]: do here, but I don't know. I feel like there is something here because that
[Ian Landsman]: is always one of the things that in a big eloquent file does get a little
[Ian Landsman]: bit annoying.
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm
[Ian Landsman]: That it's like, okay, I have this, you know, property I need to like check
[Ian Landsman]: in 10 places, like where all it's doing and whatnot. And so, I don't know,
[Ian Landsman]: having this one place to have everything defined about it is, is kind of
[Ian Landsman]: intriguing. But you're,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: you're not, you're not buying it yet. You're not
[Aaron]: I'm
[Ian Landsman]: in.
[Aaron]: not sold. And the only reason I'm not sold is because of... is truly because of my
[Aaron]: distaste on the strong side and not being familiar on the kind side of annotations
[Aaron]: or whatever they're
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: called. So one thing I do like is that we're still exploring. Like, I love
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: that Wendell did this because... There can be, I think, sometimes like a sense that
[Aaron]: Laravel is almost complete
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: and we're lucky for that. But this is this is a good like, hey, I've got an opinion
[Aaron]: and the opinion is, you know, I want to use annotations. And I think I'm going to
[Aaron]: try to pull it off. Love that. Absolutely love that. I'm not yet sold on the language
[Aaron]: feature
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm
[Aaron]: yet. And so that makes this package be something that I look at and I'm like, ah.
[Aaron]: I don't want to do that. This is kind of the same way I feel about super strong types.
[Aaron]: Like if somebody were to
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: tell me, oh, you could add this package, you could use PHP stand level nine and get
[Aaron]: super strict typing. It's like, I don't really want to do that.
[Ian Landsman]: Hahaha
[Aaron]: I'm not super interested in that. But I do like anything in the eloquent space and
[Aaron]: I do like that we're still trying to push the ball forward. But yeah, I can see.
[Aaron]: Like I can see people are really gonna like this, especially people that like annotations.
[Aaron]: Are they annotations or attributes? What are they actually
[Ian Landsman]: No,
[Aaron]: called?
[Ian Landsman]: am I calling them annotations? Maybe that, yeah, I think
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: they
[Aaron]: think
[Ian Landsman]: are attributes.
[Aaron]: I was calling them attributes,
[Ian Landsman]: Yes, I mean,
[Aaron]: but I think they're annotations.
[Ian Landsman]: no,
[Aaron]: No,
[Ian Landsman]: it's
[Aaron]: is it
[Ian Landsman]: attributes.
[Aaron]: the other way around?
[Ian Landsman]: Yes,
[Aaron]: It's attributes.
[Ian Landsman]: it's attributes. I think we got ourselves mixed up there in the beginning,
[Ian Landsman]: but it's attributes,
[Aaron]: Okay.
[Ian Landsman]: yes. Yeah,
[Aaron]: Yeah, well, that's confusing.
[Ian Landsman]: well, it's so new. We don't even know what to call these
[Aaron]: We
[Ian Landsman]: things.
[Aaron]: don't, yeah exactly. How am I supposed
[Ian Landsman]: It's so
[Aaron]: to like
[Ian Landsman]: new,
[Aaron]: something?
[Ian Landsman]: it's like
[Aaron]: I don't
[Ian Landsman]: three
[Aaron]: even know
[Ian Landsman]: years
[Aaron]: what it is.
[Ian Landsman]: old, but you know,
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: we don't know what to
[Aaron]: yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: call them.
[Aaron]: exactly.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, the attributes, so. The other thing that with this kind of package,
[Ian Landsman]: always I'm a little cautious is cause like it's really messing with something
[Ian Landsman]: that's deep baked into the core and that a lot of things expect to work a certain
[Ian Landsman]: way and who knows if in some edge case somewhere, it doesn't work that certain
[Ian Landsman]: way and you don't discover that for quite a while until you hit the weirdo
[Ian Landsman]: edge case where it actually doesn't load up properly or whatever. So
[Aaron]: Yeah, that's one of
[Ian Landsman]: there's.
[Aaron]: the tough parts about this.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I haven't looked into how it works like internally. So I have no
[Ian Landsman]: idea if that's, if there's anything like that, but I do, that is just an area where
[Ian Landsman]: I do get a little cautious. It's not one of these packages that's like
[Ian Landsman]: its own thing and whatever it's,
[Aaron]: Right,
[Ian Landsman]: you know,
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: it'll be clear if it's working or not, cause it just adds a feature. Uh, this
[Ian Landsman]: is a little different where everything, everything's going through this
[Ian Landsman]: thing and so,
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: uh, it's a little scarier, but yeah.
[Aaron]: Yeah, also one of the tough spots for me is putting the rules in the model itself.
[Aaron]: Um, because I think that's good a lot of the times, but then rules can be context
[Aaron]: dependent. And so I've always, this, this package aside, I've always had a hard
[Aaron]: time centralizing the rules into
[Ian Landsman]: I was just gonna
[Aaron]: the model.
[Ian Landsman]: ask you about that. Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: Yeah. It's like,
[Ian Landsman]: Just in general,
[Aaron]: well, well in,
[Ian Landsman]: what do you do? What do you like to do with your
[Aaron]: oh
[Ian Landsman]: rules?
[Aaron]: man, I don't
[Ian Landsman]: This
[Aaron]: know.
[Ian Landsman]: is like the eternal
[Aaron]: It's the
[Ian Landsman]: struggle
[Aaron]: worst.
[Ian Landsman]: I have,
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: yes.
[Aaron]: so the problem is, and I've tried centralizing it before and basically making my own kind
[Aaron]: of like rules factory, rules object thing.
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: It just doesn't work. So
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: here's the problem. Here's the problem as I see it. You've got HTTP coming in and
[Aaron]: the rules could be different based on permissions or the... the
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: state that the model is in, all kinds of things, right? And that's just HTTP. Then
[Aaron]: you've got
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: command line tools that you're working with where you can, as the super admin or whatever,
[Aaron]: you go in and you're like, ah, I need to process these 50 customers. I'm just gonna
[Aaron]: run this command line tool. And then you've got background jobs. You've got all
[Aaron]: these places that can touch a model and every situation is so different that the
[Aaron]: rules are necessarily different. And while it's good to say like, the name is always
[Aaron]: required, like that may be the only one that is always true.
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: And I don't want to put that somewhere and then these other rules somewhere else.
[Aaron]: And so I feel like I end up
[Ian Landsman]: Yep.
[Aaron]: recreating the rules just to have safety that I'm validating the right thing at the
[Aaron]: right time.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: There's like, I just, I don't know. I don't know the better way.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I don't know. It's like, I almost, I have toy, uh, like I've been playing
[Ian Landsman]: around with the DTOs and things like that, because
[Aaron]: Uh huh.
[Ian Landsman]: like they let you validate, but there is still these scenarios where like
[Ian Landsman]: the data is different on create versus update. And then
[Aaron]: quarterly.
[Ian Landsman]: you have like something that's optional sometimes. And then sometimes that
[Ian Landsman]: gets weird with the DTO and like, so then you have these like classes for
[Ian Landsman]: optional, like in the spotty package and you have like, you know, you have
[Ian Landsman]: all this like tight pinning that's going on and multiple type hints and
[Ian Landsman]: like, it's just like, I don't know. It's, I want, I want it to be like that.
[Ian Landsman]: I want it to
[Aaron]: I know.
[Ian Landsman]: be, here's the central location, all the magic's here. I don't have to worry
[Ian Landsman]: about it. But then in practice, yeah, like in, I mean, this is a big thing
[Ian Landsman]: too. I feel like that if you're not, haven't built a real app or, I just feel
[Ian Landsman]: like when you have real apps that customers use, there's just all these
[Ian Landsman]: things that you have to do that are not. perfect and you have to duplicate
[Ian Landsman]: code sometimes or things like that because ultimately like the app just has
[Ian Landsman]: to work a certain way and the nice way that the framework or the package
[Ian Landsman]: or whatever would want you to do it just it doesn't work it doesn't
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: work and so it just ends up being more complicated or you do all a bunch
[Ian Landsman]: of weird stuff to make it work but now it's all these edge cases are created
[Ian Landsman]: or like just more complexity of figuring out what's even going on versus
[Ian Landsman]: if you just had a rules array in two different spots, that was basically
[Ian Landsman]: the same except for, you know, one or two differences or whatnot. So.
[Aaron]: Yeah, I feel like this is that's why we don't have it as a first party primitive,
[Aaron]: like
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: Laravel has given us the powerful validator and the rules and the form requests. And Laravel
[Ian Landsman]: Alright.
[Aaron]: has given us all of that. And I feel like the reason we don't have validation built
[Aaron]: into the eloquent model is for that exact reason. It's because
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: it's too hard. Like there are too many different ways that you might want to update
[Aaron]: a model in too many different scenarios that having a static rules array. just isn't
[Aaron]: viable in a real application.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. This is another thing I've been thinking about lately is I don't
[Ian Landsman]: know. I'll be interested to get your take on it. I feel like every time
[Ian Landsman]: I stray away from that. So this is kind of even somewhat counter to what we're
[Ian Landsman]: just saying, but every time I stray away from the eloquent model is sort
[Ian Landsman]: of the, the core of logic, so to speak, um, I don't even
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: know how to describe this, but if like, like even with messing with the DTOs
[Ian Landsman]: and things like that,
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: it just gets like so much more complicated
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: and the benefits. I feel like. I always see them in the app, like I'm reading
[Ian Landsman]: about something. I'm like, oh, this would be amazing. And then you try to
[Ian Landsman]: implement it and you're like, oh yeah, but this thing and the other thing,
[Ian Landsman]: and it doesn't work in this scenario and all those things. And I'm like,
[Ian Landsman]: oh, I should have just like stuck with like calling the eloquent model,
[Ian Landsman]: like create in this controller and everything would have been
[Aaron]: Yes.
[Ian Landsman]: fine. But instead I
[Aaron]: Correct.
[Ian Landsman]: got fancy
[Aaron]: Ha.
[Ian Landsman]: and now it's like taking me three extra days and
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: I don't even know what's going on. So
[Aaron]: Now I'm
[Ian Landsman]: I don't
[Aaron]: wrapped
[Ian Landsman]: know what
[Aaron]: around
[Ian Landsman]: your
[Aaron]: the
[Ian Landsman]: thoughts
[Aaron]: axle
[Ian Landsman]: are.
[Aaron]: of misdirection and
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: yep, I am an eloquent slash active record maximalist.
[Ian Landsman]: Okay, yeah.
[Aaron]: As much as I can do, give me a super fat model with methods for everything and I'm
[Aaron]: a happy man. So
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: I feel the same way. I will say that I try to stick to... I try to stick to... the
[Aaron]: conventions elsewhere, like form requests are a good example
[Ian Landsman]: Yep.
[Aaron]: because you can validate those, get all your correct data out, and then throw it
[Aaron]: into an eloquent model.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: But yeah, the whole, I feel like I don't want to open this can of worms, but event
[Aaron]: sourcing is one of them where
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: it's like,
[Ian Landsman]: That's even like the next
[Aaron]: oh
[Ian Landsman]: level. Yeah.
[Aaron]: man, what am I doing? And maybe
[Ian Landsman]: Yup.
[Aaron]: we can have Daniel on at some point to argue with us, Daniel
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: Coborn, and he'll tell me why it's good. But that's one of those things where
[Aaron]: I'm like... You know, man, I'm just gonna do my model thing. So yeah, I feel the
[Aaron]: same way.
[Ian Landsman]: One thing I have sort of taken in and use a lot now is actions, like the action
[Ian Landsman]: pattern. I
[Aaron]: Oh,
[Ian Landsman]: do
[Aaron]: tell
[Ian Landsman]: like that
[Aaron]: me.
[Ian Landsman]: a lot. Yeah. Like
[Aaron]: Somebody
[Ian Landsman]: there's a layerable
[Aaron]: was just
[Ian Landsman]: action package
[Aaron]: asking
[Ian Landsman]: that works
[Aaron]: me
[Ian Landsman]: really good.
[Aaron]: if I used actions and I said that I haven't, but I wish I had in certain cases.
[Aaron]: So tell me what you're using them for.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so I love the actions because it's pretty much just like calling
[Ian Landsman]: the active record, you know, create or whatever you're trying to do. It's
[Ian Landsman]: just like one little step of abstraction from that. And then in a real world
[Ian Landsman]: app, I find that it's quite useful because it's. So the action is just
[Ian Landsman]: like a PHP class for people who don't know. If you use the Laravel actions
[Ian Landsman]: package, it does some nice like helpers and stuff for you, so I would recommend
[Ian Landsman]: that I've used that quite a bit. Um, I don't use that, that thing goes
[Ian Landsman]: a little crazy and starts to get a little too much for me. Like you can
[Ian Landsman]: just take this action and have it be your whole controller. You
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: could take this action and have it be your whole job and things like that.
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: So that, I actually don't use those parts because it starts to get like in
[Ian Landsman]: the super magical territory. I just
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: use it as an action. And so ways you just call this class, like where you
[Ian Landsman]: would call like post create or whatever, you might just have like a create
[Ian Landsman]: post action. And so you call that and you can just pass in your validated
[Ian Landsman]: data or whatever.
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm
[Ian Landsman]: And so what I like about that though, is it gives you this nice central spot
[Ian Landsman]: for if you have other business logic, which in like a real world app, you
[Ian Landsman]: tend to. And so it's like, well, when I do this, I also have to like, just do
[Ian Landsman]: this other thing. Right. And so instead of having to duplicate that in the
[Ian Landsman]: multiple places of yes, I have it in this controller and I have another controller
[Ian Landsman]: and I have a command line thing that does it and as a web hook, then it's a
[Ian Landsman]: different controller and whatever, so you can just have this, the action that
[Ian Landsman]: you call everywhere. You pass the data. So that's centralized. If you have
[Ian Landsman]: other stuff to do, maybe you have to like fire an event or whatever, you
[Ian Landsman]: don't have to duplicate all that code everywhere. So it just gives you
[Ian Landsman]: that one step back, but it's not complicated. Like you can just go
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: into that. It's very clear. Usually they're very short and it's super testable.
[Ian Landsman]: Like it's like, this is this one
[Aaron]: Yeah, that's true.
[Ian Landsman]: function. I can just easily write tests for it. Um, and the package also
[Ian Landsman]: has nice helpers for that. You don't need to use a package. Like you can just
[Ian Landsman]: build a PHP class and do this, but The package does have some niceties like
[Ian Landsman]: test helpers and things, which are really great. And yeah, so I really like
[Ian Landsman]: the actions. That is one that stuck with me because it's pretty much like
[Ian Landsman]: active recordy really, but
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: just with a little more abstraction so you can
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: shove
[Aaron]: it's like
[Ian Landsman]: some
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: other
[Aaron]: new,
[Ian Landsman]: stuff in there.
[Aaron]: it's like a new first class citizen that you can then centralize some stuff in.
[Aaron]: And the thing that
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: I've always like, I think this Laravel actions package, which is very thorough and
[Aaron]: very good. I don't think that was around back when I was doing this app that needs it.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: And the place that I think I need it is like. when I do the same thing in multiple
[Aaron]: places, like just like we were talking about with the rules array,
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: I'm doing the same thing, whether it's like an internal customer service person is
[Aaron]: creating a property, you know, a home, an address is creating a property. I'm bulk
[Aaron]: importing, you know, 500 properties. We're creating a property via webhook. We're
[Aaron]: creating a property via background job. All of those things are like
[Ian Landsman]: All right.
[Aaron]: creating a property record. and I ended up having to be like, ah, I gotta make sure
[Aaron]: that I do the right thing four different
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: places, and it's like, ah, this would be good to centralize. So yeah, I do like the
[Aaron]: concept of actions.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, it's really nice for that. It's like, that's the perfect use case. Just
[Ian Landsman]: like, yep, I'm going to create it, but then I'm going to fire this event and
[Ian Landsman]: I'm going to send an email and I want those three things to happen every single
[Ian Landsman]: time I create this record. And you just always know that those things are
[Ian Landsman]: happening and you can test it and all that. So, uh, that those I really like,
[Ian Landsman]: it's just so nice and clean and organized and all that. But, uh, Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: but I agree besides that, these other higher level things. And this is probably,
[Ian Landsman]: I mean, I don't know, maybe this is like, both of us have this kind of
[Ian Landsman]: background of coming from the less formal
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: side of computer science. So I do think there's something to that too. Although
[Ian Landsman]: I definitely know a lot of people who learned on their own and are definitely
[Ian Landsman]: more into these type of more advanced patterns and things, but. I don't
[Ian Landsman]: know, I tend to be very practical in nature in these things and just be like,
[Ian Landsman]: okay,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: this is clean and easy to understand and somebody else could understand it. If I
[Ian Landsman]: have to throw some random person in there, right? It's not gonna take
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: them too long to learn a whole new pattern and all this stuff that has all
[Ian Landsman]: these different rules and things. It's like, nope, here's a PHP class and it
[Ian Landsman]: does a couple things. And
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: I get that part already and we're good.
[Aaron]: Yeah, it's
[Ian Landsman]: We
[Aaron]: called
[Ian Landsman]: can
[Aaron]: Create
[Ian Landsman]: get productive,
[Aaron]: Post. You can figure
[Ian Landsman]: right?
[Aaron]: out what it does.
[Ian Landsman]: Exactly, it's straightforward.
[Aaron]: All right, well, good package, Wendell. I look forward to seeing how that will develop.
[Ian Landsman]: All right, next on the list here.
[Aaron]: You wanna talk YouTube?
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, sure.
[Aaron]: PHP doesn't suck anymore.
[Ian Landsman]: doesn't we know that for sure we're here look at that's the short version
[Ian Landsman]: of
[Aaron]: It
[Ian Landsman]: the video
[Aaron]: does. Hahaha. Yeah. Thanks for tuning in. So I made a video. I made a video and it
[Aaron]: covered like,
[Ian Landsman]: Wow. Yeah.
[Aaron]: yeah, right?
[Ian Landsman]: I just, I
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: just
[Aaron]: think
[Ian Landsman]: saw
[Aaron]: you
[Ian Landsman]: your views on it.
[Aaron]: just opened
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: it. Yeah. It covered some of the changes from 2012 to now. And I picked 2012 because
[Aaron]: it's like a long time ago and you know 5.4-ish era. And I just ran through like, hey,
[Aaron]: did you guys know that we have traits and we have types and we have enums and we
[Aaron]: have, you know, generators, that kind of stuff. It's funny because I thought it was
[Aaron]: good. Like I thought it was a good video and I thought, ah, some people, some
[Aaron]: people will be interested. I think the title did a lot of work for me there
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: because I think I got people that were mad that I said that PHP doesn't suck anymore.
[Aaron]: And I think I got people that were mad that suggested that I suggested that PHP
[Aaron]: ever sucked.
[Ian Landsman]: Alright.
[Aaron]: And so like I got I got the people who were
[Ian Landsman]: Both
[Aaron]: on
[Ian Landsman]: sides.
[Aaron]: my team and the people that were haters. I got them all to come and comment and everything.
[Aaron]: So
[Ian Landsman]: Yup.
[Aaron]: I think I got lucky with that with that title there. But yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: It's
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: always
[Aaron]: hundred
[Ian Landsman]: a big key.
[Aaron]: thousand views.
[Ian Landsman]: So congratulations. Amazing.
[Aaron]: Isn't
[Ian Landsman]: I
[Aaron]: that
[Ian Landsman]: mean,
[Aaron]: the
[Ian Landsman]: 5.7
[Aaron]: craziest thing you've ever
[Ian Landsman]: thousand
[Aaron]: heard?
[Ian Landsman]: upvotes. Like that's
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: an incredible amount of upvotes. Like
[Aaron]: It's crazy!
[Ian Landsman]: I feel like that percentage is unusual for like five, six percent of the
[Ian Landsman]: viewers to vote at all. Um,
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: seems
[Aaron]: let me
[Ian Landsman]: unusually
[Aaron]: see. I think
[Ian Landsman]: high to me even.
[Aaron]: I can see
[Ian Landsman]: which is
[Aaron]: the
[Ian Landsman]: great.
[Aaron]: percent. It's 98% thumbs up. So 5,700 likes and 98%
[Ian Landsman]: Wow.
[Aaron]: up votes versus down.
[Ian Landsman]: That's amazing.
[Aaron]: Crazy!
[Ian Landsman]: That's incredible. Yeah, and I thought the video was so good because it
[Ian Landsman]: was just like, yeah, just jumped into every
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm
[Ian Landsman]: single thing that's changed, all the big stuff. And it's like, boom, here's
[Ian Landsman]: 15 seconds on this, here's 15 seconds on this,
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: and just kept the pace going really nice.
[Aaron]: Yeah, I'm really trying to find, I'm trying to find like the ideal YouTube format
[Aaron]: because it is
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: very different than like a lot of the work I've done historically has been long form
[Aaron]: educational, right? So I'll do
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: a Laracast course or teach accounting or teach databases and it's like, I know that
[Aaron]: I have you for a couple hours and I'm going to tell you everything you need to know.
[Aaron]: YouTube,
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: you're fighting people clicking away or closing.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: And so... I'm trying to find that format, but this one worked.
[Ian Landsman]: This also seems like one of these great ones that you could like break
[Ian Landsman]: this up and throw it on Instagram and all the other like,
[Aaron]: Oh, that's
[Ian Landsman]: or on
[Aaron]: a great
[Ian Landsman]: YouTube
[Aaron]: idea.
[Ian Landsman]: shorts and whatever, right?
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: Like here's like 15 seconds, like just create some new little intro. That's
[Ian Landsman]: like a two second intro. And it's like, boom, here's, uh, another
[Aaron]: Oh shoot,
[Ian Landsman]: thing about
[Aaron]: that's
[Ian Landsman]: why
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: PHP
[Aaron]: great idea.
[Ian Landsman]: doesn't suck. We use all this. Um, Holy cow. It has 1100 comments.
[Aaron]: Oh dude,
[Ian Landsman]: That's insane.
[Aaron]: so many comments.
[Ian Landsman]: I
[Aaron]: And
[Ian Landsman]: know. What do you
[Aaron]: fully half of them are like, oh, PHP still sucks.
[Ian Landsman]: Well, that's you
[Aaron]: I'm
[Ian Landsman]: too,
[Aaron]: like, come
[Ian Landsman]: man.
[Aaron]: on.
[Ian Landsman]: Like.
[Aaron]: I don't care if you think that, but be more, like I'm not offended as a PHP developer,
[Aaron]: I'm offended as a terminally online commenter. Like make a better comment. This
[Aaron]: comment
[Ian Landsman]: Your comment
[Aaron]: is stupid.
[Ian Landsman]: sucks.
[Aaron]: Yeah, exactly.
[Ian Landsman]: I think that is kind of a known issue with the YouTube comments, unfortunately.
[Ian Landsman]: I think the ratio of quality comments to
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: crap is not ideal.
[Aaron]: I do let my spice come through a little bit more in YouTube comments, like
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: on,
[Ian Landsman]: I think it's fair.
[Aaron]: you know, on Twitter, especially on Twitter main and mostly in Twitter replies
[Aaron]: I'm like trying to be very gracious and kind to people on YouTube when they bring
[Aaron]: in the barbs. I just, I barb them right back
[Ian Landsman]: Hahaha
[Aaron]: and it's kind of fun. It's kind of fun to be spicy over there.
[Ian Landsman]: Sort of like a private area down there, you know, it's like a it's
[Aaron]: Oh
[Ian Landsman]: like
[Aaron]: yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: oh, it's you're down
[Aaron]: nobody's
[Ian Landsman]: in the trenches
[Aaron]: going down
[Ian Landsman]: in there
[Aaron]: there.
[Ian Landsman]: right I also love that in this video about PHP and technology and code like
[Ian Landsman]: the number one I guess you pinned it but it's
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: like
[Aaron]: pinned
[Ian Landsman]: funny
[Aaron]: it,
[Ian Landsman]: that's
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: pinned that the loop of comment about the movie loopers kind
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: of the top here It's so funny
[Aaron]: I did a little review of what was happening in 2012 and the movie Looper was in theaters
[Aaron]: and I was like, this is a good movie. And a lot of people,
[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehehehe
[Aaron]: a lot of people commented and said they can't trust me because I thought Looper
[Aaron]: was good. So.
[Ian Landsman]: I am definitely on the side of like PHP was never bad. Like it's kind of
[Ian Landsman]: funny because
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: as you were going through there, I'm like all this stuff is really cool. And
[Ian Landsman]: for people who are, you know, need these things, whatever's great. But I
[Ian Landsman]: was like the old way, like I'm like 95%. I was like the old way, that was
[Ian Landsman]: fine. Like I kind of liked the way it was before too. Like that worked for
[Ian Landsman]: me. Right, right.
[Aaron]: That's my secret is I never thought it sucked either and I still don't use a lot
[Aaron]: of the features that I talked about, like
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: annotations or attributes and all this strict typing and stuff. It's like, I don't
[Aaron]: really care about that and I love the PHP of yesteryear. And this is another thing,
[Aaron]: this video is not for my traditional audience on Twitter. My audience
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: on Twitter is Laravel developers. This is basically... an outreach video and
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: I feel like the audience on YouTube is so much bigger and the
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: algorithm does so much work on your behalf that it doesn't really matter who is
[Aaron]: directly following you. You're making a video for kind of the masses and so it is
[Aaron]: a little different for me because I'm thinking like, you know, I'm talking to all
[Aaron]: of our friends. and like, why would I make a video like this for all of our friends?
[Aaron]: But
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: it's YouTube, it's not for our friends. So yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: it's been interesting.
[Ian Landsman]: I had a discussion with somebody kind of recently about this idea, too. And
[Ian Landsman]: I think that is like one of the keys of YouTube. Like the point of being
[Ian Landsman]: on there in some ways is to reach this new group of people who are not
[Aaron]: Yes.
[Ian Landsman]: on traditional Laravel tech, your PHP channels of Twitter. You know, it's
[Ian Landsman]: like, yeah, just everything. that silo is only a certain size and obviously
[Ian Landsman]: Twitter
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: just has its own issues on top of all that. So it's like the YouTube is so
[Ian Landsman]: much bigger than Twitter, way,
[Aaron]: So
[Ian Landsman]: way
[Aaron]: much
[Ian Landsman]: bigger.
[Aaron]: bigger.
[Ian Landsman]: And
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: the algorithm is I think pretty good at surfacing stuff. I mean, sometimes
[Ian Landsman]: we're bad, but like overall, like I think it actually does a pretty good
[Ian Landsman]: job of like
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: surfacing things people are interested in. And so yeah, this gives you
[Ian Landsman]: that opportunity to reach out to other types of developers or unbelievably
[Ian Landsman]: the PHP developers who are not, you know, on Twitter following Taylor and Laravel.
[Aaron]: I know,
[Ian Landsman]: Like
[Aaron]: can
[Ian Landsman]: if
[Aaron]: you
[Ian Landsman]: you could
[Aaron]: imagine?
[Ian Landsman]: believe there are people out there like that.
[Aaron]: I know.
[Ian Landsman]: Um,
[Aaron]: I know,
[Ian Landsman]: it is remarkable,
[Aaron]: yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: but.
[Aaron]: that is crazy to me, that there's a whole set of the community, the PHP community
[Aaron]: that like is not on Twitter at all talking
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: about Folio and Volt all day long. They're like, I have
[Ian Landsman]: I know.
[Aaron]: no idea what you're talking about, man. Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: And
[Aaron]: it's
[Ian Landsman]: we see,
[Aaron]: crazy.
[Ian Landsman]: I see this a lot in, I mean, this isn't even a great example, but on Lara
[Ian Landsman]: jobs, we see it a lot. It's like, oh, there's
[Aaron]: Mm.
[Ian Landsman]: companies posting that are not like in the Laravel circle. And that's very
[Ian Landsman]: Laravel, obviously specific. It's Lara jobs. But that's like one of the
[Ian Landsman]: areas I'm trying to do more of even with Lara jobs, like reach out to other
[Ian Landsman]: segments of the PHP
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: world since it's really like a PHP job board essentially. And because it's
[Ian Landsman]: just this huge world of PHP. It's like when I look at other job boards,
[Ian Landsman]: even the more general ones, like a dice.com or whatever, and there's like
[Ian Landsman]: all these companies posting, you know, Laravel jobs even who
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: are like, do nothing in the Laravel world, like Disney or whatever, like
[Ian Landsman]: Disney hasn't sponsored LaraCon or, um, they've never posted a job on Lara
[Ian Landsman]: jobs, but they have like
[Aaron]: Right.
[Ian Landsman]: 10 jobs on dice.com for Laravel developers.
[Aaron]: Yep. Hmm,
[Ian Landsman]: It was this like whole
[Aaron]: interesting.
[Ian Landsman]: world of PHP and Laravel that's people just going to work every day and. doing
[Ian Landsman]: their job and leaving and they're not, you know, that closely following what's
[Ian Landsman]: going on necessarily, um, in the kind of more close knit community that
[Aaron]: just
[Ian Landsman]: we tend
[Aaron]: doing
[Ian Landsman]: to operate
[Aaron]: their job
[Ian Landsman]: in.
[Aaron]: and going
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: home. They're not
[Ian Landsman]: Can
[Aaron]: wired
[Ian Landsman]: you believe
[Aaron]: in.
[Ian Landsman]: it?
[Aaron]: I,
[Ian Landsman]: That's
[Aaron]: it sounds,
[Ian Landsman]: crazy. They're not checking Twitter 24 hours a day for the latest
[Aaron]: they must be
[Ian Landsman]: updates.
[Aaron]: happy. It couldn't
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: be me, no way.
[Ian Landsman]: No way. I don't want any part of that.
[Aaron]: No way. The video also got, it got reacted to. Did you see
[Ian Landsman]: Hmm.
[Aaron]: this?
[Ian Landsman]: No, I don't think I saw this.
[Aaron]: There's a popular YouTuber slash Twitch streamer called
[Ian Landsman]: Oh,
[Aaron]: The
[Ian Landsman]: wow.
[Aaron]: PrimaGen. And he did a react video where he watches my video on stream and reacts
[Aaron]: to
[Ian Landsman]: Ha
[Aaron]: it.
[Ian Landsman]: ha ha.
[Aaron]: And I'm like, I'm, I'm so many levels deep into YouTube culture
[Ian Landsman]: That is
[Aaron]: now
[Ian Landsman]: awesome,
[Aaron]: that
[Ian Landsman]: that
[Aaron]: he's
[Ian Landsman]: is
[Aaron]: doing that.
[Ian Landsman]: great,
[Aaron]: Um,
[Ian Landsman]: yeah.
[Aaron]: and it, so my video got a hundred thousand views. His video got a hundred thousand views.
[Ian Landsman]: Wow. So your
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: video has kind of been seen 200,000 times
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: right there.
[Aaron]: that's what I'm saying. So it was really, really good. So Primogen has a very strong
[Aaron]: personality and a very strong
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: brand. um, and that turns a lot of people off, but he is an absolute, like he's
[Aaron]: a wonderful, wonderful person.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: And he, uh, we actually DMs before he did the react video. Cause I feel like some
[Aaron]: people seeing that would be like, I can't believe this guy just watched your video
[Aaron]: and put himself in the corner and, you know, claim that
[Ian Landsman]: Alright.
[Aaron]: as his own content. Like one, that's not what he did. Like he's one of the smartest
[Aaron]: people that I've seen on YouTube. And two,
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: he asked me beforehand. And honestly, like he was doing me a favor because
[Ian Landsman]: Right,
[Aaron]: he's got like
[Ian Landsman]: yeah.
[Aaron]: a hundred and fifty thousand subscribers on YouTube
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: And then he's got a hundred thousand followers on Twitter And he's tweeting about
[Aaron]: my video and it just it was like a whole day of just feeling like what is happening?
[Aaron]: Cuz you know I record these videos and then it takes me forever to edit and then
[Aaron]: I finally upload it and I've already Lost all the like oh, this is a great video
[Aaron]: It's like I gotta get this freaking thing off my plate
[Ian Landsman]: All right. I'm sick
[Aaron]: and then
[Ian Landsman]: of this
[Aaron]: it
[Ian Landsman]: thing.
[Aaron]: does well and it's like This
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: is
[Ian Landsman]: that's
[Aaron]: so cool!
[Ian Landsman]: awesome. It's so
[Aaron]: So
[Ian Landsman]: great
[Aaron]: that
[Ian Landsman]: when that
[Aaron]: was
[Ian Landsman]: happens.
[Aaron]: a fun week, yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, that's a, and yeah, like what he's doing there, he's like adding a lot
[Ian Landsman]: of value, so he's not just like reposting your video he's,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: you know, you know, adding to it for his audience and what they want to see
[Ian Landsman]: and, um, adding kind of value there, so, and
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: yeah, obviously
[Aaron]: he's really
[Ian Landsman]: exposing
[Aaron]: good. Like
[Ian Landsman]: you.
[Aaron]: one of the things he's really good at is like, he knows so many languages. He's
[Aaron]: an engineer at Netflix, and so he's worked
[Ian Landsman]: Okay.
[Aaron]: in a bunch of different places.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: He knows so many languages that he can look at all these things that I'm running
[Aaron]: through. And he's like, oh, this is kind of how C Sharp does it. Oh, well in JavaScript,
[Aaron]: it's done this way, and I hate that, and I really like that PHP does this. And he
[Aaron]: can compare it across
[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.
[Aaron]: a whole bunch of languages where I... I just can't do that.
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: Like I've never worked in C sharp. I don't know what C sharp is.
[Ian Landsman]: So is he not, he hasn't used PHP much then it sounds like? So he's
[Aaron]: No, not since the era that
[Ian Landsman]: the old
[Aaron]: I talked
[Ian Landsman]: days,
[Aaron]: about.
[Ian Landsman]: okay.
[Aaron]: Yeah, and so
[Ian Landsman]: Oh, so
[Aaron]: it
[Ian Landsman]: he's
[Aaron]: was
[Ian Landsman]: perfect
[Aaron]: really cool
[Ian Landsman]: for
[Aaron]: because
[Ian Landsman]: it, yeah.
[Aaron]: he started the video and he was like, I feel like he's talking exactly about me.
[Aaron]: I came up
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: on PHP
[Ian Landsman]: Ahem.
[Aaron]: and then I've never used it. And so there were some things that he genuinely liked.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: So I'm really happy about how that went.
[Ian Landsman]: So what's the next video in this series?
[Aaron]: Yeah, so I've got a few that I'm thinking of.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: Um, and I think there are, you know, I get a lot of the ideas for like, what's next
[Aaron]: from the comments on, on these videos.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: And, you know, I have a bunch of my own ideas, but it is nice to see what are people
[Aaron]: continually, continually surfacing. Um, and so I think a few that I have in mind
[Aaron]: is, um, I want to do for, for the super type heavy people, I want to do generics in
[Aaron]: PHP. One,
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: I got to learn how to even do that. But I
[Ian Landsman]: Alright.
[Aaron]: do want to show that like, we have further typing than is available in the language
[Aaron]: itself.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: Basically, and you know, you always have to think of like, what's the angle? And
[Aaron]: I think the angle here is like, TypeScript for PHP almost, because it's like,
[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.
[Aaron]: we're using PHP, but we're putting this layer on top and...
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: in the same way that you're using JavaScript and you're putting a layer on top. So I got
[Aaron]: to figure out like the catchy angle there.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: And then I want to do
[Ian Landsman]: Ahem.
[Aaron]: I want to do a Laravel is faster than next JS video.
[Ian Landsman]: Ooh, that'll be a good one.
[Aaron]: I know spicy
[Ian Landsman]: That's
[Aaron]: right.
[Ian Landsman]: a good one. Yeah, that's
[Aaron]: So
[Ian Landsman]: a
[Aaron]: I
[Ian Landsman]: spicy
[Aaron]: got to figure
[Ian Landsman]: one.
[Aaron]: out I'm having Steve just Steve King on Twitter.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm
[Aaron]: Steve McDougall I think is his name but his handles just Steve King. He's going
[Aaron]: to help me set up a Docker. container. I don't know anything about Docker. He's going
[Aaron]: to help me set up a Docker container that has the Next.js app and a Laravel app
[Aaron]: with Octane. And I'm going
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: to load test and see if the Laravel one is faster. I super hope that it is because
[Aaron]: that would be
[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha.
[Aaron]: an amazing video that would make a lot of Next fans really mad and a lot of Laravel
[Aaron]: people really happy. And then the last one I have on actually two more. I've got Livewire
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: SPA mode. So like I want to show that you can create a single page app with just
[Aaron]: PHP, obviously it's Livewire JavaScript, but you know, the angle is SBA with PHP and
[Aaron]: then I'm having Boris Lepkin help me set up a repo where I can do end to end strict
[Aaron]: typing with Laravel inertia and view.
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: And I can have all of that. like TypeScript all the way through. Cause people are
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: always like, well, I'd never switched to PHP because I love type end to end type
[Aaron]: safety. And
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: like one, that's a red herring. That's dumb. That's a bad reason to stay with JavaScript
[Aaron]: on the back end. And two, you can have that. You can have that in Laravel. So those
[Aaron]: are my videos. I got to think of catchy angles and spicy titles and stuff.
[Ian Landsman]: I like it. I really liked the Livewire one too. I feel like Livewire is part
[Ian Landsman]: of it is it's like a pretty complicated thing to explain, you know, cause
[Ian Landsman]: it's like this, it's just not like anything else. You know, it's like, it's
[Ian Landsman]: not
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: like React. It's not like Vue, like it does what they do in the end, but it's
[Ian Landsman]: nothing like them and how you use it. So like, I do feel like it's just any
[Ian Landsman]: kind of exposure or ways to like, get people
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: to understand how valuable it is and how faster it can make you. once you
[Ian Landsman]: really kind of understand what it's trying to do is, uh, is would be really
[Ian Landsman]: great. So again, reach that other, that other audience that's not in the
[Ian Landsman]: super core. That's like, oh yeah, we know already about livewire.larribelle.com
[Aaron]: Exactly.
[Ian Landsman]: and it's up there in version
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: three and blah, blah. Like, and I think too, it's kind of become, I feel
[Ian Landsman]: like version three is like, it's ready for prime time now. So I'd be great
[Ian Landsman]: to see more people making videos and all that stuff about it too, just because
[Ian Landsman]: it's kind of matured to this level where it's really ready to take on. You
[Aaron]: Yep,
[Ian Landsman]: know, serious,
[Aaron]: I agree.
[Ian Landsman]: serious work, quote unquote.
[Aaron]: Yeah, and I think with the version three release, they did a lot of stuff that
[Aaron]: makes it more usable. Like this whole SPA mode thing is really cool. And Jason
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: Beggs did a tutorial slash demo for Laravel News showing like a podcast player.
[Aaron]: And I think the whole shtick is like, it keeps playing even when you switch pages,
[Aaron]: which
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: is like the hallmark of SPA thing, SPA demo. And so I may just use that. Um, as
[Aaron]: my,
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: as my example, because yeah, I feel like even, even in LiveWire land, like you've
[Aaron]: got Hotwire, you've got Stimulus, you've got Phoenix live view, you've got HTMX, all
[Aaron]: of those are kind of like HTML over the wire domdiffing. Um,
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: but I think LiveWire is even, I would say better, but definitely different than all
[Aaron]: of those in that one, PHP dies. Like you have to build the whole universe on every
[Aaron]: request.
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: And so like with Ruby, you've got this server that's continually running, and are
[Aaron]: you keeping state around back there? I don't super know, but with LiveWire, it's
[Aaron]: like, no, we gotta send everything back and forth all the time. And one of the
[Aaron]: complaints about LiveWire on the video that I did was like, oh, so how many connections
[Aaron]: do you have to keep open all the time to send the data back and forth? And you're
[Aaron]: like, none.
[Ian Landsman]: Right?
[Aaron]: You don't leave stuff open with PHP. Everything dies, and you recreate the universe
[Aaron]: every time.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: So I do think there's a fundamental disparity between what people think is happening
[Aaron]: and what is actually happening.
[Ian Landsman]: Right. And just like that, that's even like, um, it's PHP's way of doing it has
[Ian Landsman]: become more and more viable over time, right? It's like, oh, that was kind
[Ian Landsman]: of a stupid way to do it. Maybe you can make the case way back in the day because
[Ian Landsman]: like the computers weren't that fast and the network wasn't that fast. And
[Ian Landsman]: like you're sending stuff back and forth and you're setting up the whole world
[Ian Landsman]: every time and everything. But now it's like everything's so fast. It's like,
[Ian Landsman]: yeah, and it's great. I could just reset it up every time. And that does
[Ian Landsman]: solve a lot of, you know, it creates other problems, but it does solve a
[Ian Landsman]: nice set of problems too. And. Yeah, yeah, how LiveWire does all that. I mean,
[Ian Landsman]: the stuff LiveWire does to make this all work is sort of nuts. But, uh, it's
[Ian Landsman]: so nice to rebuild everything. So now it's like really, you know, cause when
[Ian Landsman]: you first build something the first time, you don't really understand what
[Ian Landsman]: it's even going to be. And to rebuild it with that understanding, I think
[Ian Landsman]: has made a ton of really huge improvements and how it all works.
[Aaron]: Yeah, and on that PHP lifecycle model, we got really lucky that PHP is basically tailor-made
[Aaron]: for serverless environments. Because it's like,
[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.
[Aaron]: it runs one thing stateless, and then it dies.
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: And it's
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: like,
[Ian Landsman]: It's perfect for
[Aaron]: oh,
[Ian Landsman]: serverless. Yup.
[Aaron]: you're describing PHP. Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: It was a big change. I started in, um, cold fusion. And ColdFusion had a server
[Ian Landsman]: which you could store state in there and other stuff.
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: You could do all kinds of things. And then I started doing some PHP and I was
[Ian Landsman]: like, Oh, like this doesn't do anything at all for me.
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: And then also it was like pre frameworks. Essentially there was a couple
[Ian Landsman]: of like very rudimentary frameworks. And so it was like, there's nothing at all
[Ian Landsman]: here, but okay, we'll do this. And, uh, yeah, but now it's obviously with
[Ian Landsman]: Laravel and just the whole state of everything that's going on with servers.
[Ian Landsman]: It's, uh, it's so much nicer. And. Um, and yes, the hosting situation and
[Ian Landsman]: server lists
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: and all the options we have now changes all that a lot. Um, but yeah, and
[Ian Landsman]: even live wire, like what he's done in version three, where it's like bundling
[Ian Landsman]: requests and things like that. So like even
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: wire concerns that, you know, you weren't holding them open, but it was having
[Ian Landsman]: to call back and forth a lot. If you had a bunch of components and things
[Ian Landsman]: like now it's just all bundled together, so that's all way more efficient
[Ian Landsman]: and yeah, it's, it's really pretty advanced now.
[Aaron]: Yeah. Good job, Caleb. Way to go.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, love Caleb. He's the man.
[Aaron]: Well, we've been mostly technical. Do you wanna go back to non-technical for a
[Aaron]: second?
[Ian Landsman]: Sure, sure.
[Aaron]: We give
[Ian Landsman]: What
[Aaron]: the
[Ian Landsman]: do
[Aaron]: technical
[Ian Landsman]: you got for me?
[Aaron]: people a break. Are you hiring someone to create family photo books?
[Ian Landsman]: Family photo books. Yes. So this is
[Aaron]: Okay
[Ian Landsman]: my
[Aaron]: so I saw this on Twitter and I thought
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: Ian is a galaxy brain. Like
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: I knew you were like a planet brain but this is galaxy brain.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. So this is the thing I, I used to be super into photography and I've
[Ian Landsman]: gotten, I've dialed it back a little bit here, especially as the kids have
[Ian Landsman]: gotten older and they're just like, get that camera out of my face, you know,
[Ian Landsman]: but whatever. When they're little, like, it's awesome. Like, so I'd be, I'd always
[Ian Landsman]: have the fancy camera. I'm taking pictures of the kids. And then I'm taking pictures
[Ian Landsman]: of just other sorts of things, nature and whatnot. And then, um, So I'd always
[Ian Landsman]: make these photo books. I'd have all these photos, I'd spend the time,
[Ian Landsman]: I'd get them all edited, all nice, and make books, and blah, blah. But then
[Ian Landsman]: just recently, kids are bigger, like we talked about at the beginning, it's
[Ian Landsman]: just like they have so much stuff going on, they're running around all
[Ian Landsman]: the time, work's busy, doing podcasts, like all this
[Aaron]: Hehehehe
[Ian Landsman]: stuff. There's just not time to make the photo books. And it's kind of funny,
[Ian Landsman]: so we did this, the vacation I'm on right now with the people I'm on right
[Ian Landsman]: now, we did this a year ago to a different place. And I was like, all right,
[Ian Landsman]: I'll make the photo book.
[Aaron]: Hehehe
[Ian Landsman]: And I did not, I still have not done the photo book. The photo book is
[Ian Landsman]: not done from a year ago.
[Aaron]: You
[Ian Landsman]: We
[Aaron]: never,
[Ian Landsman]: are now
[Aaron]: you
[Ian Landsman]: on the
[Aaron]: never
[Ian Landsman]: second
[Aaron]: volunteer.
[Ian Landsman]: vacation.
[Aaron]: You never volunteer for that kind of stuff.
[Ian Landsman]: So now we're on the second vacation. I still haven't done the photo book from the
[Ian Landsman]: first vacation. And so I have, you know, I have other trips and things that
[Ian Landsman]: I would want to do little books for. Um, I just have this huge backlog of photo
[Ian Landsman]: books. So yeah, it just struck me one day, like a week or two back there.
[Ian Landsman]: And I was like, I can outsource the creation of these photo books. Like I'm
[Ian Landsman]: not
[Aaron]: Yes!
[Ian Landsman]: doing anything. Especially because these are not like at this point more like
[Ian Landsman]: artistic photos where I felt like Back in the day. I was more like creating
[Ian Landsman]: the art like I
[Aaron]: Sure.
[Ian Landsman]: might have a black and white photo of a certain scene And like I want it
[Ian Landsman]: to be a certain way. This is like me on my iphone snapping pictures
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm
[Ian Landsman]: like just pick the smileiest one and Edit it up to fit in the right box
[Ian Landsman]: in the page and throw that stuff together and make me a photo book so it seems
[Ian Landsman]: like pretty much anybody could handle this like um without and it'll be fine,
[Ian Landsman]: right? It'll be fine. It'll be a nice little photo book to have on the
[Ian Landsman]: shelf. And the kids always love the photo books. Like we have this big pile
[Ian Landsman]: of photo books from all of our trips and they go through them and whatever.
[Ian Landsman]: So that's my plan. I don't know. I did
[Aaron]: Has
[Ian Landsman]: a little
[Aaron]: it worked?
[Ian Landsman]: bit of research,
[Aaron]: So you said it
[Ian Landsman]: though
[Aaron]: sounds
[Ian Landsman]: I
[Aaron]: like
[Ian Landsman]: haven't done
[Aaron]: anybody
[Ian Landsman]: it.
[Aaron]: can do it. Has anybody been able to do it?
[Ian Landsman]: Nobody's done it yet. So I've
[Aaron]: Where
[Ian Landsman]: looked
[Aaron]: are
[Ian Landsman]: through,
[Aaron]: you looking?
[Ian Landsman]: I don't know. So since that tweet where I said that, I have not really
[Ian Landsman]: had time to then delve too much farther. I went into Upwork. There are people
[Ian Landsman]: who sort of claim to do it, but then it's a little bit not clear what they
[Ian Landsman]: actually are providing. There's some who are doing it like only for weddings,
[Ian Landsman]: which is not
[Aaron]: Mmm,
[Ian Landsman]: really the right thing because they're gonna wanna
[Aaron]: too expensive,
[Ian Landsman]: charge a ton
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: of money and do like a fancy book, which is not what this is. So I'm. If
[Ian Landsman]: anybody out there knows of, um, either a service that does this or even
[Ian Landsman]: just like photo editing services or things like that, cause I obviously there's
[Ian Landsman]: like upwork, but I didn't love the
[Aaron]: Or like
[Ian Landsman]: options
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: there.
[Aaron]: stay at home parent who knows how to use
[Ian Landsman]: I
[Aaron]: a
[Ian Landsman]: mean,
[Aaron]: computer.
[Ian Landsman]: that would be
[Aaron]: That's
[Ian Landsman]: fine
[Aaron]: basically
[Ian Landsman]: too.
[Aaron]: what
[Ian Landsman]: Like
[Aaron]: you need.
[Ian Landsman]: if you're out there and just wanna do this for me, like I'm also totally
[Ian Landsman]: fine with that. Like we can.
[Aaron]: Yeah, is your husband or wife a functioning adult and can use a computer?
[Ian Landsman]: and wants to
[Aaron]: Contact
[Ian Landsman]: do this. Yeah.
[Aaron]: Ian.
[Ian Landsman]: I mean, that's totally, I'm totally on board with that. Maybe this is the
[Ian Landsman]: SaaS we should be building. Maybe that's what'll come out of this podcast.
[Ian Landsman]: We'll build the
[Aaron]: Yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: photo book creation service SaaS app. But, right.
[Aaron]: yeah. Yeah, we could make tens of dollars that way,
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: I think. Ha ha ha.
[Ian Landsman]: But it's like, if there was just like a site and I don't want to build
[Ian Landsman]: this, but if it was just like a service that does this, that's like a hundred
[Ian Landsman]: bucks a book, like they
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: would just already have like three books for me, like just done. even 150
[Ian Landsman]: bucks
[Aaron]: I agree.
[Ian Landsman]: a book, like whatever. Like
[Aaron]: I fully agree.
[Ian Landsman]: I would just pay the money. I don't wanna think about it. I wanna upload
[Ian Landsman]: my thousand pictures from my trip to Europe and my 200 pictures from the
[Ian Landsman]: last vacation we all had. And I just wanna pay somebody 100, 200 bucks even,
[Ian Landsman]: and just be like, oh, and a book shows up on my doorstep and it's done,
[Ian Landsman]: it's great. So yeah, if anybody knows about that service already existing or
[Ian Landsman]: wants to do it, let me know. And then we'll see how that goes. But. Otherwise
[Ian Landsman]: I do plan after vacation on getting, uh, on making that happen. And now
[Ian Landsman]: since it's in the podcast, it's going to have to happen. So at least we will
[Ian Landsman]: try it. We will have results. We could
[Aaron]: Yeah, if
[Ian Landsman]: talk
[Aaron]: you're
[Ian Landsman]: about
[Aaron]: listening
[Ian Landsman]: the results.
[Aaron]: to this, if you're listening to this and it's August of 2024, make sure you send
[Aaron]: us an email to see if Ian ever got his vacation book made. So check in with us
[Aaron]: in one year to make sure Ian
[Ian Landsman]: Oh,
[Aaron]: got
[Ian Landsman]: yeah,
[Aaron]: his book made.
[Ian Landsman]: August 2025, we'll be doing this podcast. I'll be like, up. I'm on vacation
[Ian Landsman]: with everybody again. Now I'm two vacation books behind.
[Aaron]: Yeah. So I hired somebody a while back to do 3D rendering of, I was going to add a
[Aaron]: back deck to connect the shed quarters, my old studio to my house. And there's
[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.
[Aaron]: this giant gap in the middle. And I hired somebody on, I think it was Upwork? No,
[Aaron]: I think it was Fiverr actually.
[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.
[Aaron]: I took a bunch of pictures, did a few dimensions, and hired an outdoor deck designer
[Aaron]: in Turkey to do 3D renderings of what a deck could
[Ian Landsman]: Holy cow.
[Aaron]: look like. Yeah, and it was like $65. And
[Ian Landsman]: Wow.
[Aaron]: so then, was it perfect? No, but I could then go to a local contractor and instead
[Aaron]: of like... trying to explain something to someone who's barely listening to me,
[Ian Landsman]: Right.
[Aaron]: I could show him a picture and be like, I basically want
[Ian Landsman]: Build
[Aaron]: this.
[Ian Landsman]: this.
[Aaron]: Yeah. And he's like, okay, I could build that. And I thought that is a total like,
[Aaron]: that's a totally good use of money to spend $65 to be able to communicate clearly
[Aaron]: what I want. And I went back and forth
[Ian Landsman]: That
[Aaron]: with
[Ian Landsman]: was
[Aaron]: the guy
[Ian Landsman]: great.
[Aaron]: on a few revisions, because on the first one, he did some weird stuff with pergolas.
[Aaron]: And I was like, I don't want that, like remove
[Ian Landsman]: Mm.
[Aaron]: that change this. And then I had the thing to show the guy. And so finding these
[Aaron]: things that you can outsource that you don't really think you can
[Ian Landsman]: I just love
[Aaron]: outsource,
[Ian Landsman]: outsourcing.
[Aaron]: yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I gotta get better about that. I'm really pretty bad about outsourcing
[Ian Landsman]: and stuff like that. And it's like, I should just outsource this. Why am
[Ian Landsman]: I not outsourcing more stuff? It's like, we actually found this service here
[Ian Landsman]: kind of along those lines where it's like, they will come and set up. So you
[Ian Landsman]: can't leave like a tent or anything on the beach overnight.
[Aaron]: Oh, yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: And there's like 13 of us and whatever, and the kids and whatever, son and
[Ian Landsman]: all that stuff. So we kinda want a tent. So they just come every day and
[Ian Landsman]: they set
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: up the tent. and they bring chairs and they put it out there. And then
[Ian Landsman]: every night they come and they take down a tent and they take away the chairs
[Ian Landsman]: and they just do it every night. And it's fabulous. And that also led me to
[Ian Landsman]: the discovery of another app which I'm just gonna tell everybody about as
[Ian Landsman]: public service called Splitwise. Have you ever used Splitwise?
[Aaron]: live, live and die by Splitwise.
[Ian Landsman]: You love the Splitwise, I didn't even
[Aaron]: Love,
[Ian Landsman]: know about Splitwise.
[Aaron]: love
[Ian Landsman]: It's unbelievable.
[Aaron]: Splitwise.
[Ian Landsman]: Everything
[Aaron]: I've
[Ian Landsman]: you buy
[Aaron]: been
[Ian Landsman]: is.
[Aaron]: using Splitwise since 2009. It's amazing,
[Ian Landsman]: Wow, is
[Aaron]: yes.
[Ian Landsman]: it around that long? I didn't
[Aaron]: It
[Ian Landsman]: even
[Aaron]: is,
[Ian Landsman]: know that.
[Aaron]: yes.
[Ian Landsman]: Wow. So maybe everybody knows about this already, but Splitwise lets you
[Ian Landsman]: just split bills with other people. And like, so you can just, every time
[Ian Landsman]: you buy something, you throw it in Splitwise and it'll handle like, like
[Ian Landsman]: in our case, we're pretty much dividing everything by thirds, just divides
[Ian Landsman]: it by thirds. And then at the end it tracks who owes who what and you can
[Ian Landsman]: settle up and that's it. And... It's unbelievable. This is like one of the
[Ian Landsman]: first
[Aaron]: Okay,
[Ian Landsman]: mobile apps that's blown my mind in a while.
[Aaron]: yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: Like, it's like, oh, this is fabulous.
[Aaron]: we gotta talk splitwise. So, splitwise is truly one of the OG apps that does the thing
[Aaron]: it's supposed to do and doesn't muck it up. And so what I love about splitwise,
[Aaron]: so we do these yearly trips, all of our guy friends from college, and what I love
[Aaron]: about splitwise is, As long as you accurately represent the truth in Splitwise,
[Aaron]: everything comes out just fine. So what I mean is, you can say like, okay, I,
[Aaron]: Aaron, I'm going to the grocery store for, you know, these 10 guys for the weekend
[Aaron]: and I'm going to spend, you know, $1,000 to buy all the groceries for this weekend,
[Aaron]: right? I put $1,000 into Splitwise and I say split evenly. And it just like, it
[Aaron]: splits it evenly. Okay. Whatever, that seems normal, right? But then let's say I get
[Aaron]: there early and I go to dinner with four other guys and we go out for pizza, right?
[Aaron]: And one guy pays for all the pizza. And he says, okay, I, let's say Andrew, paid
[Aaron]: for all the pizza, but only these five people were there. So I'm gonna split it between
[Aaron]: these five people. And then let's say there are three people on the trip that don't
[Aaron]: drink, so we split the alcohol between seven people. And then let's say I buy Ian
[Aaron]: lunch, so it's just like a one-on-one transaction. As long as you put all of that
[Aaron]: into Splitwise and you say there's a tab to say simplify debt. So like if I owe
[Aaron]: Ian $5 and Ian owes Andrew $5, I'm just gonna pay Andrew and Splitwise will handle
[Aaron]: that for you. At the end, it just comes out to be like, you put everything in there
[Aaron]: and it just says, Aaron, you owe Andrew $42. And you're like, all right, sounds like.
[Aaron]: Sounds fine to me, and it takes into account everything you paid for, everything
[Aaron]: you participated in, and like it doesn't add you to things that you weren't a part of,
[Aaron]: and at the end you pay one single person and then you move on about your day. It's the
[Aaron]: best thing in
[Ian Landsman]: It's
[Aaron]: the world.
[Ian Landsman]: totally mind blowing, mind
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: blowing. It's so good. Yes, you said it perfectly. Like it doesn't muck
[Ian Landsman]: it up. It's like, it does this. It's not trying to sell me a bunch of other
[Ian Landsman]: stuff while I'm in there adding, you know, these entries. It's just like, nope,
[Ian Landsman]: add your entries at the top. It's got like this running total. It's like,
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: you've loaned out a thousand dollars so far.
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: And it's like, yes, I'm making money on this vacation.
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: People are gonna pay me a thousand dollars at the end of this vacation. It's so
[Ian Landsman]: great.
[Aaron]: Yep,
[Ian Landsman]: Everything
[Aaron]: yeah, and
[Ian Landsman]: costs
[Aaron]: that's
[Ian Landsman]: a third less.
[Aaron]: That's great because then you're at the next dinner and you can be like well it
[Aaron]: looks like It looks like I'm a thousand dollars behind so somebody else should pay
[Aaron]: for dinner So then at the end of the trip, you know, you're as close to even as
[Aaron]: possible And so your person-to-person
[Ian Landsman]: Alright.
[Aaron]: transactions are a lot smaller. Yeah, it's oh man
[Ian Landsman]: It
[Aaron]: What
[Ian Landsman]: hooks
[Aaron]: a what
[Ian Landsman]: into
[Aaron]: an
[Ian Landsman]: Venmo.
[Aaron]: unexpected surprise to
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,
[Aaron]: talk about
[Ian Landsman]: like,
[Aaron]: split wise
[Ian Landsman]: oh, it's so good. It just, just to have a uni-tasker app like that, that just
[Ian Landsman]: is executed so perfectly. That's something I never built either. I always have
[Ian Landsman]: these like big complicated things.
[Aaron]: I know.
[Ian Landsman]: Just a nice uni-tasker app. It just does, it just down in the little nitty
[Ian Landsman]: gritty details of that single task so deeply. Oh, just excellent. Love
[Aaron]: I'm pulling
[Ian Landsman]: it.
[Aaron]: up my Splitwise right now so I can see
[Ian Landsman]: Oh,
[Aaron]: all
[Ian Landsman]: there
[Aaron]: the groups
[Ian Landsman]: you go. Yup.
[Aaron]: that I have.
[Ian Landsman]: Oh wow, you have
[Aaron]: I've
[Ian Landsman]: a bunch
[Aaron]: got,
[Ian Landsman]: of different groups. That's interesting.
[Aaron]: oh yeah, I've got, I don't know if the camera
[Ian Landsman]: Oh wow,
[Aaron]: will pick it up.
[Ian Landsman]: yeah, OG
[Aaron]: So
[Ian Landsman]: status
[Aaron]: we've got
[Ian Landsman]: here.
[Aaron]: SF15, 16, 17, those are all the guide trips. And then we've got a Florida trip, we've
[Aaron]: got a 30th birthday trip, we've got a wedding weekend. Yeah, it's, I love
[Ian Landsman]: It's
[Aaron]: it.
[Ian Landsman]: a revolution.
[Aaron]: It's so great.
[Ian Landsman]: My mind has been totally blown. Like, yeah, none of us in our group really
[Ian Landsman]: knew about it. So my cousin went to a bachelor party.
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm
[Ian Landsman]: Like six months ago or something. And like, they just did it where the one guy
[Ian Landsman]: paid for everything. Nobody paid
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: for anything though. The leader paid for every single transaction. You know,
[Ian Landsman]: he got all the points, which I think was probably part of his
[Aaron]: Yep.
[Ian Landsman]: goal, which is great.
[Aaron]: That guy.
[Ian Landsman]: And then,
[Aaron]: That
[Ian Landsman]: um,
[Aaron]: freaking
[Ian Landsman]: that
[Aaron]: guy.
[Ian Landsman]: guy, and then, uh, And then they just split it up and they just all paid
[Ian Landsman]: him the amounts they
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: owed. And that was it. It was like so easy. So then we use it for this and
[Ian Landsman]: we're all blown away. It's, it's
[Aaron]: And
[Ian Landsman]: so
[Aaron]: you can
[Ian Landsman]: incredibly
[Aaron]: attach pictures
[Ian Landsman]: nice.
[Aaron]: of a receipt
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.
[Aaron]: and
[Ian Landsman]: I mean,
[Aaron]: you can,
[Ian Landsman]: we're not
[Aaron]: you
[Ian Landsman]: doing
[Aaron]: can
[Ian Landsman]: that
[Aaron]: do,
[Ian Landsman]: because we don't care, but like,
[Aaron]: yeah,
[Ian Landsman]: yeah,
[Aaron]: we don't care.
[Ian Landsman]: you could do that for the bigger group or whatever.
[Aaron]: Yeah. And you can do crazy splitting things like you can split it evenly. You can
[Aaron]: split it by percent. You can split it by
[Ian Landsman]: Alright.
[Aaron]: portion. So you can be like, we bought,
[Ian Landsman]: Oh.
[Aaron]: we
[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha.
[Aaron]: bought 15 things and actually five of the things were for this one guy and the
[Aaron]: other 10 were for the other 10 people. And you can
[Ian Landsman]: Bye.
[Aaron]: say this guy gets five units of proportion
[Ian Landsman]: of
[Aaron]: and this
[Ian Landsman]: the...
[Aaron]: everyone else gets one unit. It's
[Ian Landsman]: Wow.
[Aaron]: like, Why would you ever need that? I have no idea, but it's so cool.
[Ian Landsman]: I have used one so far. We've been doing pretty much everything evenly, but
[Ian Landsman]: there has been one where it's like, yeah, me and my brother just did something.
[Ian Landsman]: My cousin's family wasn't involved. So it's like, oh, that is just me and him.
[Ian Landsman]: And it's like now it's split in half between the two of us and not, um,
[Ian Landsman]: with him in it. And it's like the tally all changes and
[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.
[Ian Landsman]: just blown away. Yeah. I dunno. I feel like most of the hype around mobile
[Ian Landsman]: apps in general, like my mobile app usage is almost entirely like native Apple
[Ian Landsman]: apps and like Twitter and maybe like one or two other things and that's it.
[Ian Landsman]: And. But. This is one of those ones that's like, yes, this is, this is making
[Ian Landsman]: it in. This is staying on the phone, uh, because it's just so damn useful
[Ian Landsman]: in those couple times a year where you need to do this kind of thing.
[Aaron]: What a gem.
[Ian Landsman]: So good.
[Aaron]: A
[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. Look at
[Aaron]: hidden
[Ian Landsman]: that.
[Aaron]: gem there at the end
[Ian Landsman]: Kit.
[Aaron]: of the pod. That's why you always stick around, folks.
[Ian Landsman]: Think about this, on this one trip, Waffle House and Splitwise, I've discovered
[Aaron]: You...
[Ian Landsman]: these two things.
[Aaron]: Your
[Ian Landsman]: What
[Aaron]: life,
[Ian Landsman]: a trip.
[Aaron]: your life is... And I discovered trucks! You can just put a truck on a beach!
[Ian Landsman]: Hey, Chuck
[Aaron]: It's
[Ian Landsman]: on
[Aaron]: amazing!
[Ian Landsman]: a beach. We're learning.
[Aaron]: Yes,
[Ian Landsman]: This is
[Aaron]: this
[Ian Landsman]: unbelievable.
[Aaron]: is why we do this.
[Ian Landsman]: Sharing our knowledge.
[Aaron]: That's right. Alright, anything else? Where do people find us?
[Ian Landsman]: man, they find us at mostlytechnical.com and on YouTube. Check out the YouTube, the
[Ian Landsman]: YouTube gets, it's like it's building up. I'm
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: sort of interested about the YouTube growth eventually. It's nice to be
[Ian Landsman]: able to see how many subscribers you have because podcasts, you know,
[Aaron]: Yeah.
[Ian Landsman]: you can't really tell for sure, but, and then we're at MostlyTechnicalPod on
[Ian Landsman]: Twitter, I believe. So check that out. We should probably get
[Aaron]: If
[Ian Landsman]: these things down.
[Aaron]: you
[Ian Landsman]: You're
[Aaron]: can find us,
[Ian Landsman]: right.
[Aaron]: find us. If not, we'll see you
[Ian Landsman]: It's
[Aaron]: next
[Ian Landsman]: all linked.
[Aaron]: time.
[Ian Landsman]: Go to the show notes. Thanks.
[Aaron]: All right, talk to you later, Ian.
[Ian Landsman]: Bye.