1 00:00:05,083 --> 00:00:07,333 Welcome to The Emerging Biotech Leader, 2 00:00:07,333 --> 00:00:08,666 where we help biotech leaders 3 00:00:08,666 --> 00:00:10,625 maximize the value of their therapeutics 4 00:00:10,625 --> 00:00:12,666 from clinical development to product launch. 5 00:00:12,875 --> 00:00:14,041 We’re your hosts, 6 00:00:14,041 --> 00:00:15,083 I'm Kim Kushner. 7 00:00:15,083 --> 00:00:16,750 And I'm Ramin Farhood. 8 00:00:16,750 --> 00:00:17,541 We are here to help 9 00:00:17,541 --> 00:00:20,166 you navigate the pitfalls of the biotech industry 10 00:00:20,166 --> 00:00:21,875 and illuminate the path forward. 11 00:00:21,875 --> 00:00:24,416 On this episode of The Emerging Biotech Leader, 12 00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:25,625 we're going to be talking about 13 00:00:25,625 --> 00:00:26,500 strong leaders, 14 00:00:26,500 --> 00:00:27,708 self-awareness and filling 15 00:00:27,708 --> 00:00:28,750 blind spots in their own 16 00:00:28,750 --> 00:00:30,666 skill sets among their team. 17 00:00:30,666 --> 00:00:33,958 We recently spoke to Dr. Suku Nagendran 18 00:00:33,958 --> 00:00:35,875 and we learned a lot from that conversation. 19 00:00:35,875 --> 00:00:37,083 So we'll be referencing 20 00:00:37,083 --> 00:00:38,458 a little bit of that today. 21 00:00:38,458 --> 00:00:40,291 But we're Ramin and I are joined 22 00:00:40,291 --> 00:00:42,291 by our colleague, Dr. Benit Maru 23 00:00:42,291 --> 00:00:43,375 to really talk about some of the things 24 00:00:43,375 --> 00:00:44,541 that we're seeing in the industry. 25 00:00:44,541 --> 00:00:45,166 Before we jump 26 00:00:45,166 --> 00:00:47,166 in, one of the things that Suku mentioned 27 00:00:47,166 --> 00:00:48,958 that was really interesting to me 28 00:00:48,958 --> 00:00:50,500 was a quote that he loves 29 00:00:50,500 --> 00:00:51,541 and I personally love, 30 00:00:51,541 --> 00:00:53,291 but I am probably going to butcher it. 31 00:00:53,291 --> 00:00:55,416 Is around the fact that nobody 32 00:00:55,416 --> 00:00:56,791 that he's a nobody, 33 00:00:56,791 --> 00:00:58,625 that somebody because of the team around him 34 00:00:58,625 --> 00:01:00,875 or some version of that, 35 00:01:00,875 --> 00:01:02,791 which I thought was just pretty fantastic 36 00:01:02,791 --> 00:01:04,625 because it says a lot about his own ego 37 00:01:04,625 --> 00:01:06,625 and how he sees his team 38 00:01:06,625 --> 00:01:09,333 and how he sees their ability to kind of prop up 39 00:01:09,333 --> 00:01:10,958 the programs that he's worked on 40 00:01:10,958 --> 00:01:13,208 and drive the overall success. 41 00:01:13,208 --> 00:01:15,333 That's one piece that really stood out to me, 42 00:01:15,333 --> 00:01:17,291 and that I think is really interesting for us to be thinking 43 00:01:17,291 --> 00:01:18,958 about kind of across the industry 44 00:01:18,958 --> 00:01:20,541 and one to posit 45 00:01:20,541 --> 00:01:21,583 that as a starting point 46 00:01:21,583 --> 00:01:23,208 for today's conversation. 47 00:01:23,208 --> 00:01:25,166 Thanks, Kim. 48 00:01:25,166 --> 00:01:28,125 I think what Suku mentioned with regards 49 00:01:28,125 --> 00:01:30,416 to, you know, he is who he is 50 00:01:30,416 --> 00:01:32,041 because of everyone around him. 51 00:01:32,041 --> 00:01:33,333 I think that's vitally important. 52 00:01:33,333 --> 00:01:35,541 And it's actually quite crucial. 53 00:01:35,541 --> 00:01:37,708 I think this is one of the trends that we do see 54 00:01:38,791 --> 00:01:40,583 across the biotech industry as a whole. 55 00:01:40,583 --> 00:01:41,625 One of the challenges is, 56 00:01:41,625 --> 00:01:44,833 is that the biotech industry is evolving so quickly. 57 00:01:44,833 --> 00:01:47,708 Think about, you know, who we are in terms 58 00:01:47,708 --> 00:01:50,791 of all the developments mankind has made. 59 00:01:50,791 --> 00:01:53,666 But physically, you know, we're still meant to be 60 00:01:53,666 --> 00:01:56,166 throwing a rock at a bigger rock in Africa, 61 00:01:56,166 --> 00:01:57,791 for example, that that's kind of that piece. 62 00:01:57,791 --> 00:01:57,833 And with the biotech industry 63 00:01:57,833 --> 00:01:58,916 And with the biotech industry 64 00:01:58,916 --> 00:02:00,875 exploding as much as it has, 65 00:02:00,875 --> 00:02:02,375 not everybody's going to have all the talent 66 00:02:02,375 --> 00:02:03,541 that is going to be needed 67 00:02:03,541 --> 00:02:05,250 for every single aspect of, 68 00:02:05,250 --> 00:02:07,500 you know, a biotech development. 69 00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:09,708 So understanding what it is that you need. 70 00:02:09,708 --> 00:02:10,666 So, for example, Suku 71 00:02:10,666 --> 00:02:12,958 mentioned on the last program 72 00:02:12,958 --> 00:02:15,166 that he's not a neurologist, 73 00:02:15,166 --> 00:02:16,833 he's not an expert in X, Y, Z, 74 00:02:16,833 --> 00:02:18,916 but he had no problem 75 00:02:18,916 --> 00:02:20,750 with surrounding himself 76 00:02:20,750 --> 00:02:21,875 with people like that. 77 00:02:21,875 --> 00:02:24,458 And I think that's one of the biggest things 78 00:02:24,458 --> 00:02:27,083 we do see in the biotech industry at the moment, 79 00:02:27,083 --> 00:02:29,583 is that people do unfortunately, 80 00:02:29,583 --> 00:02:31,833 they're not able to admit 81 00:02:31,833 --> 00:02:33,208 where they may need support. 82 00:02:33,208 --> 00:02:34,708 And to your point, 83 00:02:34,708 --> 00:02:36,666 Benit and the point Suku was making 84 00:02:36,666 --> 00:02:38,333 earlier on the other episode as well. 85 00:02:38,333 --> 00:02:38,875 It's it is the demand on the CMO role 86 00:02:38,875 --> 00:02:41,625 It's it is the demand on the CMO role 87 00:02:42,166 --> 00:02:44,166 and these roles in the biotech. 88 00:02:44,166 --> 00:02:46,750 It's so much you almost have to be a master. 89 00:02:46,958 --> 00:02:49,125 You have to be the master of the science. 90 00:02:49,125 --> 00:02:51,375 You have to understand the business very well. 91 00:02:51,375 --> 00:02:53,625 You have to understand the investors. 92 00:02:53,625 --> 00:02:54,625 You have to understand 93 00:02:54,625 --> 00:02:56,875 how to deal with the regulatory agencies, 94 00:02:57,291 --> 00:03:00,625 with the opinion leaders and the thought leaders 95 00:03:00,625 --> 00:03:01,541 and the patients. 96 00:03:01,541 --> 00:03:05,458 So it’s almost required from you 97 00:03:05,458 --> 00:03:08,875 that you are this super human being 98 00:03:09,375 --> 00:03:13,541 that is able to immediately kind of pivot 99 00:03:13,541 --> 00:03:15,541 from one area to the other 100 00:03:15,541 --> 00:03:17,583 and you have to be excellent 101 00:03:17,583 --> 00:03:19,833 and outstanding at every single one of it. 102 00:03:20,291 --> 00:03:22,916 And that's almost an impossible task too. 103 00:03:23,375 --> 00:03:26,250 It's a little bit unfair 104 00:03:26,250 --> 00:03:29,875 what is almost demanded from these roles. 105 00:03:29,875 --> 00:03:31,166 But on the other hand, well, 106 00:03:31,166 --> 00:03:32,666 that’s what the job requires 107 00:03:32,666 --> 00:03:35,000 and that's what you need to do to go forward. 108 00:03:35,458 --> 00:03:37,500 That's why it's so important to bring the 109 00:03:38,083 --> 00:03:39,916 right people on your team and get the 110 00:03:39,916 --> 00:03:41,458 right folks behind you. 111 00:03:41,458 --> 00:03:46,375 Yeah, it's definitely an underappreciated role in a lot of ways, 112 00:03:46,375 --> 00:03:49,833 and I think one of the other things in terms 113 00:03:49,833 --> 00:03:51,500 of filling out his team, 114 00:03:51,500 --> 00:03:53,458 there's a really important dynamic there 115 00:03:53,458 --> 00:03:56,166 in terms of the culture that they were able 116 00:03:56,166 --> 00:03:58,708 to build out of AveXis as an example. 117 00:03:58,708 --> 00:04:00,791 But one of the other things that 118 00:04:00,791 --> 00:04:03,458 really stood out to me and is very important, 119 00:04:03,458 --> 00:04:04,750 in many of the organizations 120 00:04:04,750 --> 00:04:05,791 that we're working with, 121 00:04:05,791 --> 00:04:06,958 as well as the dynamics 122 00:04:06,958 --> 00:04:08,333 across the leadership team, 123 00:04:08,333 --> 00:04:09,500 there has to be an understanding 124 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:11,125 and a patience of 125 00:04:11,125 --> 00:04:13,458 what the CMO can offer at a given point in time 126 00:04:13,458 --> 00:04:14,125 and the different hat 127 00:04:14,125 --> 00:04:16,375 that they have to wear from moment to moment, 128 00:04:16,375 --> 00:04:17,375 whether they're with their team 129 00:04:17,375 --> 00:04:19,458 or whether they're with the board or an investor, 130 00:04:19,458 --> 00:04:20,250 and how quickly 131 00:04:20,250 --> 00:04:21,250 they have to be able to shift 132 00:04:21,250 --> 00:04:23,250 in each of those changing scenarios. 133 00:04:23,250 --> 00:04:26,166 So I think the leadership team dynamics is also a 134 00:04:26,166 --> 00:04:27,333 really critical piece. 135 00:04:28,375 --> 00:04:31,791 It's probably not as 136 00:04:31,791 --> 00:04:33,541 not as well 137 00:04:33,541 --> 00:04:36,083 oiled of a machine in other biotechs. 138 00:04:36,083 --> 00:04:37,791 I agree, Kim. 139 00:04:37,791 --> 00:04:39,208 I think that is one piece 140 00:04:39,208 --> 00:04:40,250 that is vitally important 141 00:04:40,250 --> 00:04:42,041 and we're all making the assumption 142 00:04:42,041 --> 00:04:43,708 that all of the other senior leaders 143 00:04:43,708 --> 00:04:44,708 that are part of, you know, 144 00:04:44,708 --> 00:04:45,708 whichever biotech 145 00:04:45,708 --> 00:04:48,708 it may be, understand this process. 146 00:04:48,708 --> 00:04:51,541 At AveXis they were lucky in a way. 147 00:04:51,541 --> 00:04:53,958 Suku had worked with Sean 148 00:04:53,958 --> 00:04:55,750 they'd all worked with each other at varying points. 149 00:04:55,750 --> 00:04:57,833 They all kind of had a sense of who they are. 150 00:04:57,833 --> 00:04:59,250 That's not always the case. 151 00:04:59,250 --> 00:05:00,041 At the rest of 152 00:05:00,041 --> 00:05:01,833 these are the biotechs that are emerging. 153 00:05:01,833 --> 00:05:03,083 People don't actually know each other. 154 00:05:03,083 --> 00:05:05,791 People don't know what their strengths are, 155 00:05:05,791 --> 00:05:06,375 the weakness are. 156 00:05:06,375 --> 00:05:07,625 People are quite tentative 157 00:05:07,625 --> 00:05:09,333 and I think that is a challenge. 158 00:05:09,333 --> 00:05:10,625 And I think, you know, the value 159 00:05:10,625 --> 00:05:12,166 of a chief medical officer 160 00:05:12,166 --> 00:05:14,875 and a strong clinical medical department 161 00:05:14,875 --> 00:05:15,916 is often under thought, 162 00:05:15,916 --> 00:05:17,083 depending on 163 00:05:17,083 --> 00:05:19,708 what the background of some of the other people 164 00:05:19,708 --> 00:05:20,958 within that biotech are as well. 165 00:05:20,958 --> 00:05:22,083 So I think that's something 166 00:05:22,083 --> 00:05:24,958 that is often underplayed and the other comment 167 00:05:24,958 --> 00:05:27,541 Suku made again on the last episode, 168 00:05:27,541 --> 00:05:28,750 it requires courage. 169 00:05:28,750 --> 00:05:30,375 It genuinely does require courage. 170 00:05:30,375 --> 00:05:32,458 If you are with a group of unknowns, 171 00:05:32,458 --> 00:05:34,750 you do have to be able to stand up, 172 00:05:34,750 --> 00:05:37,291 you know, shoulders out to take charge. 173 00:05:37,291 --> 00:05:39,125 And actually be willing to take the hits 174 00:05:39,125 --> 00:05:40,666 that come back at you as well. 175 00:05:40,666 --> 00:05:42,166 And I think that's something that's 176 00:05:42,166 --> 00:05:44,208 that's a very rare trait, I think. 177 00:05:44,208 --> 00:05:46,291 What do you think other organizations 178 00:05:46,291 --> 00:05:48,708 haven't been able to crack this code? 179 00:05:48,708 --> 00:05:50,666 Now, I was reflecting on this a little bit. 180 00:05:50,666 --> 00:05:52,416 And, you know, is it all just ego that everyone's 181 00:05:52,416 --> 00:05:54,166 And, you know, is it all just ego that everyone's 182 00:05:54,166 --> 00:05:55,500 a little bit too afraid 183 00:05:55,500 --> 00:05:57,958 to show their own weaknesses and individuals 184 00:05:57,958 --> 00:05:59,375 don't have that self-awareness 185 00:05:59,375 --> 00:06:02,375 to be as open with their peers on, 186 00:06:02,375 --> 00:06:03,750 I’m not strong in this area 187 00:06:03,750 --> 00:06:07,125 and help me fill this gap or, you know, I'm too 188 00:06:07,125 --> 00:06:10,458 afraid to show who I really am 189 00:06:10,458 --> 00:06:11,833 or the questions I have 190 00:06:11,833 --> 00:06:14,083 and I don't want to put that on the table. 191 00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:16,708 Is it really an ego driven reason 192 00:06:16,708 --> 00:06:19,041 or do you think there's something else behind it? 193 00:06:19,041 --> 00:06:22,666 So Kim, I'm not so sure if it's about it's only the ego. 194 00:06:22,666 --> 00:06:25,541 And ego may obviously play a part of this, 195 00:06:25,875 --> 00:06:28,750 but I think it's also depending on where you are 196 00:06:28,750 --> 00:06:29,583 in your career, 197 00:06:29,583 --> 00:06:31,208 if you're up and coming 198 00:06:31,208 --> 00:06:33,833 and a rising star in your career, 199 00:06:33,833 --> 00:06:36,916 it sometimes is more challenging and difficult 200 00:06:36,916 --> 00:06:38,416 to admit your weaknesses 201 00:06:38,416 --> 00:06:40,625 because you're trying to establish yourself 202 00:06:40,916 --> 00:06:42,458 and show the organization 203 00:06:42,458 --> 00:06:43,791 that you know all of the answers 204 00:06:43,791 --> 00:06:45,166 and you're in charge and 205 00:06:45,166 --> 00:06:46,666 and you're leading everything true, 206 00:06:46,666 --> 00:06:49,041 which obviously it's counterintuitive 207 00:06:49,041 --> 00:06:50,708 because it does work against you 208 00:06:50,708 --> 00:06:53,333 when things are not going so well. 209 00:06:53,333 --> 00:06:55,416 I think that that's another piece of it. 210 00:06:56,916 --> 00:06:59,500 But I see more and more 211 00:06:59,500 --> 00:07:01,250 dealing with some of the clients 212 00:07:01,250 --> 00:07:03,958 that have been in the industry for a while 213 00:07:04,458 --> 00:07:07,708 that they have gotten to a point in their career 214 00:07:07,708 --> 00:07:09,916 that they can easily 215 00:07:09,916 --> 00:07:11,291 admit to the fact that, listen, 216 00:07:11,291 --> 00:07:13,791 I’m not really good in these two or three things. 217 00:07:13,791 --> 00:07:16,000 I need help in these areas. 218 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:17,708 And who are the experts 219 00:07:17,708 --> 00:07:20,416 where there's outsourcing or somebody internal 220 00:07:20,750 --> 00:07:24,208 that can help us out to make this happen. 221 00:07:24,208 --> 00:07:27,208 And that takes another level of leadership 222 00:07:27,541 --> 00:07:30,583 to be able to do that as well. 223 00:07:30,791 --> 00:07:31,791 So you're suggesting it's 224 00:07:31,791 --> 00:07:32,541 a little bit of like 225 00:07:32,541 --> 00:07:35,583 a leadership maturity index relative 226 00:07:35,583 --> 00:07:37,166 to where they are 227 00:07:37,166 --> 00:07:39,375 and the time that they've had to establish 228 00:07:39,375 --> 00:07:40,875 some of that self-awareness? 229 00:07:40,875 --> 00:07:44,666 I do agree that it is that maturity index. 230 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,708 I do think that that is quite important. 231 00:07:46,708 --> 00:07:48,958 I do unfortunately do think counter that. 232 00:07:48,958 --> 00:07:50,541 I do think some of it is ego 233 00:07:50,541 --> 00:07:51,791 based on some of the interactions 234 00:07:51,791 --> 00:07:53,625 that I have had with people as well. 235 00:07:53,625 --> 00:07:55,791 Some people are so scared of failure, 236 00:07:55,791 --> 00:07:56,916 which is understandable. 237 00:07:56,916 --> 00:07:58,333 You know, they're driven to do a certain. 238 00:07:58,333 --> 00:07:59,541 You know, you go a certain way. 239 00:07:59,541 --> 00:08:01,083 Some of the recent 240 00:08:01,083 --> 00:08:03,583 companies that we've worked with, you know, 241 00:08:03,833 --> 00:08:05,625 have spun out from well-known 242 00:08:05,625 --> 00:08:07,333 academic institutes. 243 00:08:07,333 --> 00:08:09,541 Now, those that are more mature 244 00:08:10,458 --> 00:08:11,958 do have a better EQ. 245 00:08:11,958 --> 00:08:13,041 Let's say, from a leadership 246 00:08:13,041 --> 00:08:14,083 maturity perspective. 247 00:08:14,083 --> 00:08:15,291 But then you've actually got others, 248 00:08:15,291 --> 00:08:17,125 you know, where some people 249 00:08:17,125 --> 00:08:19,000 are potentially post-docs. They're quite young. 250 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:19,541 They're quite young, 251 00:08:19,541 --> 00:08:21,500 just in their career in general, regardless of it 252 00:08:21,500 --> 00:08:23,000 being a biotech or not, 253 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,125 sometimes they face challenges in that regard. 254 00:08:25,625 --> 00:08:28,416 I also think something that cannot be 255 00:08:28,416 --> 00:08:30,458 and should not be overlooked 256 00:08:30,458 --> 00:08:31,750 is the funding pressure. 257 00:08:31,750 --> 00:08:34,958 There is such a significant funding pressure, 258 00:08:35,541 --> 00:08:37,250 especially in the market today. 259 00:08:37,250 --> 00:08:39,750 Everybody unfortunately is looking for 260 00:08:39,750 --> 00:08:41,416 a return on investment. 261 00:08:41,416 --> 00:08:44,416 Suku mentioned his philanthropic adventures, 262 00:08:44,416 --> 00:08:45,291 post AveXis, 263 00:08:45,291 --> 00:08:47,000 what he's been able to do because of that, 264 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,458 you know, he wants to do the right thing. 265 00:08:48,458 --> 00:08:50,708 He wants to help make the world a better place. 266 00:08:50,708 --> 00:08:53,083 Early stage companies are funded by 267 00:08:53,083 --> 00:08:54,500 whomever they may be funded by, 268 00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:55,833 who are looking for a return on investment 269 00:08:55,833 --> 00:08:57,625 within a short period of time. 270 00:08:57,625 --> 00:09:00,333 That lack of understanding of what development 271 00:09:00,333 --> 00:09:02,708 is, especially in a biotech space, 272 00:09:02,708 --> 00:09:05,416 causes people, in my mind to 273 00:09:06,541 --> 00:09:08,333 make decisions that they probably wouldn't 274 00:09:08,333 --> 00:09:10,250 do if they actually had a bit more time to think about it. 275 00:09:10,250 --> 00:09:14,125 An accelerated development pipeline causes 276 00:09:14,125 --> 00:09:15,833 lots and lots of challenges, 277 00:09:15,833 --> 00:09:17,750 and this is where then ego and fear 278 00:09:17,750 --> 00:09:18,708 all come into play. 279 00:09:18,708 --> 00:09:21,125 I think so. It's so multifactorial. 280 00:09:21,125 --> 00:09:23,250 And I think that last point is an important one 281 00:09:23,250 --> 00:09:26,458 for us about a minute on which is the balance of 282 00:09:27,083 --> 00:09:30,458 the fact that you can make the right decisions 283 00:09:30,458 --> 00:09:33,583 despite needing to achieve incredibly rapid 284 00:09:33,958 --> 00:09:36,958 development timelines and key milestones 285 00:09:36,958 --> 00:09:38,125 for boards and investors 286 00:09:38,125 --> 00:09:39,458 or whoever else you need to meet. 287 00:09:39,458 --> 00:09:41,958 And I think we've all probably seen 288 00:09:41,958 --> 00:09:44,166 different permutations of this, but 289 00:09:44,166 --> 00:09:45,041 it's really challenging 290 00:09:45,041 --> 00:09:46,166 when you have 291 00:09:46,166 --> 00:09:47,333 all of these pressures 292 00:09:47,333 --> 00:09:50,333 coming in with an expectation of X, Y, and Z milestone. 293 00:09:51,416 --> 00:09:54,458 But as a leader, you know what your North Star is, 294 00:09:54,458 --> 00:09:56,083 you know what you need to do. 295 00:09:56,083 --> 00:09:57,458 And to your point, Benit, 296 00:09:57,458 --> 00:09:59,708 you haven't had the opportunity to even take, 297 00:10:00,125 --> 00:10:01,875 you know, 2 hours with your team 298 00:10:01,875 --> 00:10:03,541 to really think through the implications 299 00:10:03,541 --> 00:10:05,583 of whatever a decision might be. 300 00:10:05,875 --> 00:10:08,000 So finding the balance between 301 00:10:08,708 --> 00:10:11,000 maybe not taking an extended period 302 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,000 for development planning, 303 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,750 but taking a brief pause 304 00:10:14,750 --> 00:10:16,875 to think about some of the implications, 305 00:10:16,875 --> 00:10:20,000 and working through some of the bigger questions 306 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,083 that could have a longer term impact 307 00:10:22,416 --> 00:10:23,916 on what you're building toward. 308 00:10:23,916 --> 00:10:25,583 Agreed, and I think having 309 00:10:25,583 --> 00:10:26,916 just having that time to think, 310 00:10:26,916 --> 00:10:29,500 even if, again, it's not for months and months and months, 311 00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:33,250 just an hour, 2 hours, just something right? 312 00:10:33,250 --> 00:10:34,958 Half-day workshop max, yeah. 313 00:10:34,958 --> 00:10:36,291 Exactly, I think that's helpful. 314 00:10:36,291 --> 00:10:38,500 So, you know, one example of, you know, where, 315 00:10:39,166 --> 00:10:42,583 you know, in not too distant past, 316 00:10:42,583 --> 00:10:44,291 you know, I made a decision, 317 00:10:44,291 --> 00:10:45,791 you know, as being part of a senior leader for, 318 00:10:45,791 --> 00:10:47,500 you know, a company we’re supporting, 319 00:10:48,500 --> 00:10:49,500 wanting to make sure 320 00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:50,541 that we're doing the right thing, 321 00:10:50,541 --> 00:10:51,375 we're doing the right thing 322 00:10:51,375 --> 00:10:53,625 not only for the company, but for the patient. 323 00:10:53,625 --> 00:10:55,291 It was a challenging development program. 324 00:10:55,291 --> 00:10:56,541 Everything needed to be set up 325 00:10:56,541 --> 00:10:59,250 in a stepwise manner. 326 00:10:59,250 --> 00:11:01,583 The primary funders who, you know, had heavily, 327 00:11:02,083 --> 00:11:04,416 heavily on the board, let's say, 328 00:11:04,416 --> 00:11:05,208 push back on that. 329 00:11:05,208 --> 00:11:06,333 But we stuck to our guns. 330 00:11:06,333 --> 00:11:08,291 We explained to them this is what we need to do. 331 00:11:08,291 --> 00:11:09,541 This is how we should do it. 332 00:11:09,541 --> 00:11:12,000 We got feedback from the advocacy community. 333 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,166 We got feedback from regulators. 334 00:11:14,958 --> 00:11:17,166 So to Suku's point, you do need courage. 335 00:11:17,166 --> 00:11:19,541 You do need to be able to stick to your guns 336 00:11:19,541 --> 00:11:22,166 just to show that this is the right thing to do. 337 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:24,041 What the investors 338 00:11:24,041 --> 00:11:25,375 decide to do with that information 339 00:11:25,375 --> 00:11:26,166 is their decision. 340 00:11:26,166 --> 00:11:27,375 But I do think, you know, 341 00:11:27,375 --> 00:11:28,666 as long as you can feel 342 00:11:28,666 --> 00:11:30,958 that you can sleep at night. 343 00:11:30,958 --> 00:11:33,541 I think another thing that you 344 00:11:33,541 --> 00:11:35,083 I don't think Benit that 345 00:11:35,083 --> 00:11:36,208 that you mentioned earlier 346 00:11:36,208 --> 00:11:38,291 that you definitely need besides courage 347 00:11:38,958 --> 00:11:41,625 beside being able to admit to your strengths 348 00:11:41,625 --> 00:11:44,333 and your weaknesses is also resources. 349 00:11:44,833 --> 00:11:46,541 You got to have resources 350 00:11:46,541 --> 00:11:48,625 if you're in a one or two, 351 00:11:48,833 --> 00:11:50,250 there's only so much you can do 352 00:11:50,250 --> 00:11:52,375 and it becomes really stressful. 353 00:11:52,375 --> 00:11:53,750 You've got to go really fast 354 00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:55,875 and you're going to make mistakes, right? 355 00:11:55,875 --> 00:11:58,875 So you really also have to be good at 356 00:11:59,500 --> 00:12:01,458 pulling the narrative 357 00:12:01,458 --> 00:12:05,250 and rationale together for your CEO, 358 00:12:05,250 --> 00:12:06,708 for your executive team, 359 00:12:06,708 --> 00:12:08,541 for the board of directors. Right? 360 00:12:08,541 --> 00:12:11,333 Because, especially in a smaller 361 00:12:11,333 --> 00:12:13,000 startup biotech companies, 362 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,041 board of directors are very much involved 363 00:12:15,041 --> 00:12:17,000 with the financial decisions as well. 364 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,500 Resources agents and they have to buy into 365 00:12:20,500 --> 00:12:21,333 why you need 366 00:12:21,333 --> 00:12:23,666 a head of clinical or medical 367 00:12:23,666 --> 00:12:26,916 or why you need four more people on MSL 368 00:12:26,916 --> 00:12:29,541 or in operations or things like that. 369 00:12:29,958 --> 00:12:32,666 And if you're also not so good 370 00:12:32,666 --> 00:12:33,916 at putting those narrative 371 00:12:33,916 --> 00:12:35,291 and rationale together 372 00:12:35,291 --> 00:12:37,708 and being able to tie that to a business, 373 00:12:38,333 --> 00:12:40,708 corporate, you know, objectives and goals, 374 00:12:41,041 --> 00:12:42,916 then you're not going to get resources. 375 00:12:42,916 --> 00:12:44,916 Your job becomes more frustrating. 376 00:12:44,916 --> 00:12:47,166 You won't be able to meet the timeline, 377 00:12:47,166 --> 00:12:49,833 and that's a challenge on its own too. 378 00:12:49,833 --> 00:12:52,541 It’s not like the resources is unlimited 379 00:12:52,541 --> 00:12:54,250 and is available to you 380 00:12:54,250 --> 00:12:56,875 and you really have to make that case for it. 381 00:12:56,875 --> 00:12:58,000 To get it. 382 00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,500 You need to be savvy with the resources 383 00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:01,083 that you can get access to and leverage 384 00:13:01,083 --> 00:13:02,458 them in the most optimal way. 385 00:13:02,458 --> 00:13:03,291 And Ramin, 386 00:13:03,291 --> 00:13:04,958 you brought up a really good point on, 387 00:13:04,958 --> 00:13:06,750 especially with limited resources, 388 00:13:06,750 --> 00:13:08,166 but a smaller lean team, 389 00:13:08,166 --> 00:13:10,791 you're probably going to make some mistakes. 390 00:13:11,958 --> 00:13:14,125 I think we could all probably agree that 391 00:13:14,125 --> 00:13:14,916 any organization 392 00:13:14,916 --> 00:13:17,916 would be comfortable with a couple small mistakes 393 00:13:17,916 --> 00:13:20,041 as long as you've prevented a really big mistake 394 00:13:20,291 --> 00:13:22,208 or a big negative outcome. Right? 395 00:13:22,208 --> 00:13:24,666 But unfortunately, the direction, 396 00:13:24,666 --> 00:13:26,375 especially when we're talking about gene therapy, 397 00:13:26,375 --> 00:13:27,916 specifically the direction 398 00:13:27,916 --> 00:13:28,666 the industry has taken, 399 00:13:28,666 --> 00:13:29,791 is that there has been 400 00:13:29,791 --> 00:13:32,500 a lot of mishaps at a grander scale. 401 00:13:32,791 --> 00:13:34,375 So there's absolutely some 402 00:13:34,375 --> 00:13:36,416 some amount of fear at play 403 00:13:36,416 --> 00:13:38,041 in terms of early decision making 404 00:13:38,041 --> 00:13:40,291 because everyone's trying to avoid the 405 00:13:40,291 --> 00:13:43,083 the big, big mistake, but not recognizing that 406 00:13:43,416 --> 00:13:45,875 it’s okay to make tiny ones in the path 407 00:13:45,875 --> 00:13:48,250 to preventing the big one. Right? 408 00:13:48,250 --> 00:13:50,041 Right. Absolutely. 409 00:13:50,041 --> 00:13:51,541 That is very true. 410 00:13:51,541 --> 00:13:53,333 I agree. I think yeah. 411 00:13:53,333 --> 00:13:55,250 I think that's it's 412 00:13:55,250 --> 00:13:56,291 very important, I think of this sometimes 413 00:13:56,291 --> 00:13:57,541 very important, I think of this sometimes 414 00:13:58,875 --> 00:14:00,791 and this may sound daft, and I apologize, 415 00:14:00,791 --> 00:14:01,791 but if you think about yourself 416 00:14:01,791 --> 00:14:03,666 as a conductor of an orchestra 417 00:14:03,666 --> 00:14:05,375 and you think about all the different sections, 418 00:14:05,375 --> 00:14:06,333 you know, within the orchestra 419 00:14:06,333 --> 00:14:08,583 with the strings, you know, percussion 420 00:14:08,583 --> 00:14:10,541 and so on, when does each 421 00:14:10,541 --> 00:14:11,958 section need to come into play, 422 00:14:11,958 --> 00:14:13,458 you know, to create whatever, 423 00:14:13,458 --> 00:14:14,916 you know, that sound that you're creating? 424 00:14:14,916 --> 00:14:16,583 And that's kind of what 425 00:14:16,583 --> 00:14:18,541 a CMO in this role kind of needs to be, 426 00:14:18,541 --> 00:14:21,458 because you've got to especially in the gene therapy setting, 427 00:14:21,458 --> 00:14:22,750 you think about the clinical piece, 428 00:14:22,750 --> 00:14:24,791 the medical affairs piece, the advocacy piece, 429 00:14:24,791 --> 00:14:26,500 but then you've got CMC, 430 00:14:26,500 --> 00:14:27,625 you've got your product itself, 431 00:14:27,625 --> 00:14:29,250 you’ve got the whole regulatory component. 432 00:14:29,250 --> 00:14:30,791 Which products are you using 433 00:14:30,791 --> 00:14:32,041 at which stage of development? 434 00:14:32,041 --> 00:14:34,250 If you're using a normal route of administration, 435 00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:36,708 there’s all device compatibility to think about. 436 00:14:36,708 --> 00:14:41,875 You're going to need, you know, seasoned experts 437 00:14:41,875 --> 00:14:43,541 within a certain space, 438 00:14:43,541 --> 00:14:45,708 whether it may be CMC regulatory 439 00:14:45,708 --> 00:14:46,833 and so on and so on. 440 00:14:46,833 --> 00:14:47,625 You don't need to know 441 00:14:47,625 --> 00:14:48,666 everything about gene therapy, 442 00:14:48,666 --> 00:14:51,625 but you need to know about certain aspects of it. 443 00:14:51,625 --> 00:14:52,791 And pulling it all together 444 00:14:52,791 --> 00:14:54,958 and basically being that conductor 445 00:14:54,958 --> 00:14:56,750 is challenging, 446 00:14:56,750 --> 00:14:59,708 but it’s then conveying that message to the board 447 00:15:00,416 --> 00:15:03,125 or an investor, 448 00:15:03,125 --> 00:15:04,791 even advocacy groups as well. 449 00:15:04,791 --> 00:15:05,875 Because, you know, 450 00:15:06,416 --> 00:15:09,791 again, AveXis in my mind is a unique one in a sense, 451 00:15:09,791 --> 00:15:11,750 because it's a devastating disease. 452 00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:13,000 You know, there was no 453 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,041 you know, if the child can survive 454 00:15:14,041 --> 00:15:15,875 beyond the age of two and a half years of age, 455 00:15:15,875 --> 00:15:16,666 that's a win. 456 00:15:16,666 --> 00:15:18,708 And, you know, they did that 457 00:15:18,708 --> 00:15:21,333 significantly, but not all diseases are like that. 458 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,958 There's lots of nuance as well. 459 00:15:23,958 --> 00:15:24,458 And 460 00:15:25,791 --> 00:15:27,708 being able to help 461 00:15:27,708 --> 00:15:30,375 explain what you're doing in simple terms 462 00:15:30,375 --> 00:15:31,166 to whichever 463 00:15:31,166 --> 00:15:33,166 audience it may be is another aspect 464 00:15:33,166 --> 00:15:35,000 to think about as well. 465 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,000 That's a really great point. 466 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,166 I mean, having resources is one thing, right? 467 00:15:41,166 --> 00:15:43,708 But also being resourceful is very important 468 00:15:43,708 --> 00:15:46,291 because there are folks out there 469 00:15:46,291 --> 00:15:48,458 that have exactly the resource 470 00:15:48,458 --> 00:15:50,416 and the experience and the expertise 471 00:15:50,416 --> 00:15:52,833 and knowledge that you're looking for. 472 00:15:53,166 --> 00:15:53,583 Right? 473 00:15:53,583 --> 00:15:57,083 And you can tap into those organizations 474 00:15:57,458 --> 00:16:01,125 and with those outsourcing or consultants 475 00:16:01,125 --> 00:16:02,583 or thought partners 476 00:16:02,583 --> 00:16:04,291 that they've been there, done that, 477 00:16:04,291 --> 00:16:05,916 they have that experience 478 00:16:05,916 --> 00:16:08,625 and they're able to kind of fast track 479 00:16:08,625 --> 00:16:11,458 and accelerate because you're kind of 480 00:16:11,458 --> 00:16:14,416 getting into the collective wisdom and experience 481 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,166 as opposed to when you hire somebody, 482 00:16:17,166 --> 00:16:18,750 you bring somebody on board. 483 00:16:18,750 --> 00:16:20,000 It takes time to hire 484 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,041 it takes time for them fully on board 485 00:16:22,041 --> 00:16:23,625 and get through the program 486 00:16:23,625 --> 00:16:24,666 And that whole process 487 00:16:24,666 --> 00:16:27,041 may take anywhere from six months to a year, 488 00:16:27,041 --> 00:16:29,875 especially the higher the positions and the levels are. 489 00:16:29,875 --> 00:16:32,875 And meanwhile, you're losing all that time, right? 490 00:16:32,875 --> 00:16:35,125 Which is the investors are looking at it 491 00:16:35,125 --> 00:16:36,875 the board of directors is looking at it. 492 00:16:36,875 --> 00:16:40,416 So there are ways that you can kind of stop gap 493 00:16:40,708 --> 00:16:43,166 and fill those needs. Right? 494 00:16:43,166 --> 00:16:45,125 And it may not be just 495 00:16:45,125 --> 00:16:47,375 hiring more and more people, 496 00:16:47,375 --> 00:16:49,083 but that's another thing that I think 497 00:16:49,083 --> 00:16:51,625 we should definitely consider. 498 00:16:51,625 --> 00:16:54,000 There’s one point you made Ramin, 499 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,166 sorry that just triggered a memory. 500 00:16:56,166 --> 00:16:57,291 Ultimately, you know, this 501 00:16:57,291 --> 00:16:58,791 gene therapy, genetic medicines, 502 00:16:58,791 --> 00:17:00,916 it's a novel modality. 503 00:17:00,916 --> 00:17:03,291 The timelines are truncated. 504 00:17:03,291 --> 00:17:06,208 You can't go into a healthy human initially. 505 00:17:06,208 --> 00:17:07,958 you have to go into the disease population. 506 00:17:07,958 --> 00:17:10,416 But there's also more complexity 507 00:17:10,416 --> 00:17:11,875 and more pressure that's being added 508 00:17:11,875 --> 00:17:13,625 because obviously there's an investor component. 509 00:17:13,625 --> 00:17:16,166 There's a, you know, advocacy component. 510 00:17:16,166 --> 00:17:18,416 So your traditional development 511 00:17:18,416 --> 00:17:20,500 timeline is being truncated. 512 00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:22,250 So not only are you truncating, 513 00:17:22,250 --> 00:17:24,541 you're adding in much more complexity. 514 00:17:24,541 --> 00:17:27,875 You're adding in complexity, truncation of timelines, 515 00:17:27,875 --> 00:17:29,541 and, you know, 516 00:17:29,541 --> 00:17:31,875 there's a desire for expediency as well. 517 00:17:31,875 --> 00:17:34,375 So all of this additional challenge 518 00:17:34,583 --> 00:17:35,958 that is being put forward, 519 00:17:35,958 --> 00:17:37,416 that's a cross-functional problem. 520 00:17:37,416 --> 00:17:39,000 That's not just with regard 521 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,541 to the chief medical officer, but, you know, 522 00:17:41,541 --> 00:17:43,041 the companies that we've worked with, 523 00:17:43,041 --> 00:17:44,333 some of them understand that, 524 00:17:44,333 --> 00:17:45,666 and it's easier to work with them. 525 00:17:45,666 --> 00:17:47,708 Some of them don't necessarily understand that. 526 00:17:47,708 --> 00:17:50,500 And it takes us time to get them to that stage. 527 00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:51,500 But every single group 528 00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:53,083 that we've ended up working with and Kim, 529 00:17:53,083 --> 00:17:55,000 you and I have worked on a few of them as well. 530 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,083 When that penny has dropped for them, 531 00:17:57,083 --> 00:17:58,083 they actually understand 532 00:17:58,083 --> 00:18:00,666 what we're trying to do with them and bringing 533 00:18:00,666 --> 00:18:02,833 that cross-functional, cross stakeholder, 534 00:18:02,833 --> 00:18:04,583 collaborative working group together, 535 00:18:04,583 --> 00:18:06,375 you know, with the eyes on the prize ultimately, 536 00:18:06,375 --> 00:18:08,125 which is the development of a therapy, 537 00:18:08,125 --> 00:18:10,583 so then that’s beneficial for investors, advocacy, 538 00:18:10,583 --> 00:18:12,541 so on and so on. 539 00:18:12,541 --> 00:18:13,875 I think that's the piece that 540 00:18:15,541 --> 00:18:17,458 is sometimes often 541 00:18:17,458 --> 00:18:20,125 under spoken or under thought about as well. 542 00:18:20,125 --> 00:18:21,625 And maybe that's a good place 543 00:18:21,625 --> 00:18:23,416 to wrap today's episode, 544 00:18:23,416 --> 00:18:25,166 which is really around the fact 545 00:18:25,166 --> 00:18:27,958 that team dynamics would really make or break 546 00:18:27,958 --> 00:18:29,541 some of the success of these programs. 547 00:18:29,541 --> 00:18:32,708 It's the team dynamics and the culture that 548 00:18:33,250 --> 00:18:35,333 as a leader you've built for your team, 549 00:18:35,333 --> 00:18:37,666 it's how you're filling the 550 00:18:37,666 --> 00:18:39,083 skill gaps across your team 551 00:18:39,083 --> 00:18:40,541 to make sure that everyone can trust 552 00:18:40,541 --> 00:18:41,750 that you have the right resources 553 00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:43,083 and skills at the table 554 00:18:43,083 --> 00:18:44,708 to really deliver against the promises 555 00:18:44,708 --> 00:18:46,000 that you're making above 556 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,041 and below in the organization, 557 00:18:48,041 --> 00:18:49,250 and that you're really driving 558 00:18:49,250 --> 00:18:51,083 towards a cohesive outcome 559 00:18:51,083 --> 00:18:52,958 among cross-functional leaders 560 00:18:52,958 --> 00:18:54,250 that you're collaborating with 561 00:18:54,250 --> 00:18:55,166 in the organization. 562 00:18:55,166 --> 00:18:56,416 So with that, 563 00:18:56,416 --> 00:18:58,583 thanks for the conversation today 564 00:18:58,583 --> 00:19:00,166 and looking forward to our next episode. 565 00:19:00,166 --> 00:19:02,083 Yeah, thanks, Kim. Thanks, Benit. 566 00:19:02,083 --> 00:19:02,791 Thank you. 567 00:19:02,791 --> 00:19:04,000 Thanks for tuning in to 568 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,250 The Emerging Biotech Leader 569 00:19:05,250 --> 00:19:07,125 an SSI Strategy Podcast. 570 00:19:07,541 --> 00:19:08,875 Join us each month for more 571 00:19:08,875 --> 00:19:10,500 conversations with biotech leaders. 572 00:19:10,791 --> 00:19:12,041 If you'd like to help navigating 573 00:19:12,041 --> 00:19:13,416 the complexities of biotech, 574 00:19:13,708 --> 00:19:16,250 reach out to our team at SSIStrategy.com. 575 00:19:16,583 --> 00:19:18,875 Don't forget to hit subscribe and leave a review.