Welcome to the Love, Sex, and Leadership podcast where you can discover simple tantric teachings to embody your true power, awaken your soul's wisdom, and live an inspired life as a natural, intuitive, and heart-centered. Welcome everyone to Love, Sex and Leadership. I am in Bali. It is a new year. I'm in my beautiful new home, very exciting, feeling very rested and relaxed and uh very excited for today's conversation. Um, bringing Stephen McGee, who I did, uh, years ago, the master's degree I did in, uh, spiritual psychology. They offered a, um, kind of advanced coaching program, and Steven was one of the individuals running that program. That program, that year program in and of itself really shifted the way in which I show up as a coach. And um there's so much that this man brings in his presence, in his leadership, just in the way in which he Um, really commands and listens deeply into a room, so I'm Excited to see where today's conversation goes. Uh, he's been teaching and speaking in this world for a long time, and someone I've, I've seen do amazing adventures in the world, is, is leading a lot of powerful men as well. Uh, and very excited to bring him to the show today. Welcome, Stephen. Uh, Erin, it's good to be with you. It's been a while since we've seen each other, but I'm, I, I'm just noticing, you know, one of the things about teaching is learning. And I always feel like We're all teaching what we so desperately want to learn. And I want to reflect back to you how much I've watched you learn as well. I, what I've watched you create, that you're living in Bali, that your coaching practice has exploded since we were together in a room in probably 2015 or 2016. And to see that you're building this home in Bali is all extraordinary. So it's my honor, privilege. To be here and blessed and grateful. So thank you for being a voice in the world through your podcast. Mm, thank you. Thank you. I, uh, I appreciate that. I always, uh, appreciate looking at the different timelines of life and the timelines that different people come into and, and observe and witness. You know, and I remember seeing a timeline that, in that, in that time, you had just done a, a really powerful journey with a group of guys up Ainawa. I think, uh, a couple of years before that or around that time, I don't remember the exact time. And I remember thinking to myself, wow, like I, I, I, I really appreciate what this, what this man is doing, not just for himself, but also with kind of the world of, of adventure and supporting, um, you know, men to get out of their own way and really reach for a deeper level of goals. And it really set a, it set a certain kind of north star for my own awareness in terms of some of the things I want to be achieving and creating and doing. Um, you know, just this last year, we ended up postponing it a year, um, but I was in the, in the process of creating such a trip with my dear brother Jamon, who's also been on the podcast. So, yeah, I just, uh, It, it's important for me in this journey to have individuals like yourself who are um moving ahead and really doing uh powerful work, some things that I can look up to and I can um be guided by and supported by, and that's really how, how you showed up initially into my life. So thank you. Uh, it's my pleasure, as I said earlier, and I, I know Jam and so, um, it's good to, I can see how you guys would be connected, you know, he's a He's a brother. Um, Oonawa Project, the Aconcagua Man Project was really miraculous on many levels. Um, nature, for me as a great teacher. I find that nature coherence is an important piece for all of us, not just men, but women. And for those of your listeners that might be interested, I'm happy to put the uh link to the documentary film that we created from that project and give a Yeah. So that they can watch that uh 50 60 minute film for, you know, it taught me a lot. Amazing, amazing, that's great. Yeah, so let's look at that actually cause nature is something that I'm, I'm quite connected to. I know you are as well, you lived in Colorado a while, you're now in California. Like how would you utilize or how do you utilize nature as in its coherence to support in the And the growth and the awareness of someone uh in in their potentiality and who they're showing up. Like, what is your uh teaching relationship with nature as a vessel and vehicle for, you know, growth and evolution? Well, it's so broad, right? Like, you know, this, there's so much to nature, but I mean, I think, you know, if I just rattled off some things I think are important, and you could decide, we can decide what we might want to go more deeply into. But I think, firstly, listening to nature. What does nature have to teach me when I listen, you know, what, what can I hear from the wind? What can I hear from the ground? What can I hear? From animals and creatures. What can I just hear by sitting in the silence of nature? Um, am I willing to get up in the morning and see the sunrise and, and reset my circadian rhythm so that my sleep is better, so it, it might impact my vitality if I'm coherent with nature. What happens if I take off my rubber shoes and I walk on the beach, uh, uh, upon the surf and have the inflammation be, you know, Be taken away from my body, you know, if I do that regularly, these are things that nature offers and I often say, Erin, what's normal isn't normal. So a lot of people, leaders in the world, business people are struggling with things, maladies that aren't necessary, and it's hard to meet a vision of leadership if someone doesn't feel good, if someone's not resting well. So to me, The connection between nature, leadership, results in the world, um, are really important, and, and a lot of people are just sort of separate from it. I, I bet in Bali where you live, you see a lot more people that are coherent with nature, but I don't know, maybe not. There's there's definitely a fair more of it, yeah, I mean, I think if we look at, you know, major cities in the world, though, the people in the kind of the hustle and bustle and, and, and grind of life, there's a lot of disconnection from that nature. Um, I, I'd love to dive deeper into the circadian rhythms. I know you mentioned that you're kind of diving deeper into some biology pieces and just how our body is working in synchronicity with nature itself, um, and, and how those, um, I'd say that the rhythms of nature and the rhythms of life work into your day to day life. But that's something that's always important to me. Like, I teach a lot of groups and retreats, but what's most valuable is how is someone waking up every morning and being with themselves. So, how does that show up for you in your day to day life as, as, as, as living and breathing in this world with those rhythms? Well, I think for for a while, it was a discipline, like it was something where I could choose to, to lay in bed and, and, and sleep longer and miss the sunrise. But then I found I was having trouble getting into deep sleep at night. So then, you know, first glance, it was, what's the discipline? Well, the disciplines to get up, to get outside, to get my feet on the sand where I live, to walk on the beach and watch the sunrise. And, I mean, it's, it's simple, but the, but the science behind it is pretty profound in that the sun, the sunrise will reset our entire body clock. So even if I'm traveling and I'm in different time zones, it's something I do my very best to practice. So, if I go to the East Coast, I'm still I want to get up and get that sunrise in cause my, my body knows what to do with it. It's like telling my brain what to do. The other side of that coin, as you well know, Erin, and I'm sure you're practicing a lot of these things, if not all of these things too, but blue light at night. You know, it just, you know, turned dark here. It's a little bit after 5 p.m. my time, and pretty soon I'll probably be putting on my glasses because I'm in front of blue light. And it's, it's just telling my brain it's daylight when it's not. So these are simple things that most people know today. But I find once people really practice it, so we move from the discipline to the practice. And when it becomes a practice, It's really miraculous what can happen. You know, I, I run programs where people practice this and they often report back, oh my God, my mood's better. My mind is thinking more clearly. I'm sleeping better. All these wonderful attributes that come from it, and it doesn't cost a thing. You know, it's not like we need a big pharma pill for it. We can just get out and watch the sunrise. Mhm. And what, I mean, you've been working with people a long time and, and you've seen a lot of the patternings like, what, what do you find really gets in the way for someone in general? I mean, you can go into specifics if it feels right, to, to, to, to really, you could say be their best version of themselves, to, to, to show up, you know, as a, as a powerful being that that's here to make a difference on the planet. Like, what is it that gets in the way? Is it the day to day practice? Is it You know, them just actually not believing in themselves, like, where is it, do you feel like people struggle the most, um, in, in this journey, in this journey of transformation of, of, you know, this work you and I are both doing. Well, probably, I mean, you know me well enough to know, like, I don't believe in, I don't believe in gurus. Like, I think the day of the guru is gone. So I, I, I don't know that I have an answer for it, really, but if I had to guess for myself, and I, and, and, and I would say probably other people might relate to this, it's what I spoke to earlier. So what's normal isn't normal. So, let's say it's normal for someone to work till 6:30, 7 p.m., eat dinner at 8 o'clock, uh, eat non or eat, you know, processed foods at 8 o'clock at night, and then watch Netflix for 3 hours and then, and then go to bed. Um, this is considered normal. But is it productive? And, and so I would say try the other way and see, not as a judgment, not like there's, I'm not judging it. I'm just saying, what, what does a person really want. But to answer your question more specifically, what I think happens is people just get used to it and they just start feeling like this automatic reoccurring behavior. It's just part of life. It's just how we feel. It's normal to be tired. It's normal to, to, to, to work that many hours without taking care of self. Um, so that's what I think. I just think it becomes over time, something we become numb to. When we become numb to it, we think it's normal. And when we think it's normal, we just don't think it could ever be different. And so because we kind of accept that, that that's the way it goes. Um, so I think a person, Has to kind of say, what do I want? And what would I like to change? This is a great time to have the podcast. I'm, you know, I'm not a big New Year's resolution guy myself, but I, I think if someone is, it's a great time of year to say, what would I like this year to look like? How do I want to lead better, more differently, more effectively? How could I open my heart more fully in love more and be in relationship more with myself and others. So, all of that I think is uh to your great question. You know, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, Erin. Yeah, I mean, yeah, thank you for that. And I think one of the things you speak into at the end, I, I, I really relate to, and this is a place of love. Like I find that if I'm not doing what I love, if I'm not enjoying what I do, then there's some part of me that's numbing away into life, that's numbing your way into this kind of False preconception of who I think I need to be, and that that's generally what I, I feel like when people break down other people's values of who they, they've tried to become as a result of some point of authority, some, you know, parental figure, any of those aspects and actually. get to, you know, fall in love with the raw essential self of who they are, which I think a lot of people don't necessarily know. Like, I think we're so used to being in a comparative culture that's always trying to like, oh well, what is, what's good for that person? Oh, what's good for Steven? Oh, what's working there, you know, it's like, well, what's actually working inside of ourselves, and, and this is a place I, I feel, um, you know, brings the aliveness and, and, and. For, you know, I, I guess a question for you in this, so this is good. It's like, cause in this realm of, of coaching and having impact and having leadership in people's lives, there's a natural point where someone almost wants to idolize you. And I know you, the guru is dead, and I, and I agree with that as well. But there's also the place of like, people like, oh yeah. Like you're coaching someone. They're like, oh my God, you're doing life well. Like, you're, you're doing this, and you're setting up, and you're creating these things. And there's this id idealization that happens in the point of a leadership authority. So, how do you, as the point of being a leader, both like, recognize that that judgment and that, you know, being kind of put on the pedestal in some way, shape, or form is there. Um, but not necessarily allowed the ego identification to it. Like, what's been your journey with that? You've been doing this a long time and I'm sure you've had moments and, and, and experiences of, of this happening with clients. Well, my learning has all come from pain. So, you know, I, I've been doing this, I've been doing this, I've been doing this work, coaching, leadership work, speaking, all that for over 30 years. So I would tell you that. My journey has been one of really surrendering the ego. Letting go of that, uh, like, I'm somehow the authority, and how does one do that? Well, I've done it by becoming more vulnerable. Like being more open-hearted with the people I'm working with or just how I live my life, because I have never met a human being. Even those that I've known a few teachers in my life that I would say, well, they were probably one for sure, I would say, he was illumined. But even he was highly vulnerable, even though he carried so much light and love, like could walk in a room and just the presence of who he was was transformative, had a high degree of vulnerability. So I think somebody that is positioning as an authority ought to, in my opinion, it's like, be careful. I don't want the karma of that. I don't want the responsibility of that. I want my client to find their authentic voice through a conversation that has them emerge as the guru for themselves. And I think the only one we want to be a guru for is ourselves. I think the only one, you know, reflections are great. Like you and I can be brothers and we can talk and I, I could go, Aaron, have you considered this, you could go, Steven, have you considered this. And through that reflection, like, if I'm honest, say, go, yeah. I hear that. Like, I've heard that before. So that feedback has value to me. Um, so I think this journey is, uh, I love that you brought this up because I, I know enough about you and your work to know that you position yourself similarly. You're not like, I have all the answers for anything or anybody. And I think that's important these days, especially with the leadership and the coaching space. It's exploded since I've been in it. I don't even recognize it anymore, Aaron. It's, it's on a way to be a $100 billion space in the next 3 to 5 years. That's a lot. That's a lot of people entering the space. Mhm, mhm. Yeah, you know, the thing that I see. Well, I, I relate to that and I think that's one of the pieces when I, you know, if I look back to whatever, whatever that was, 78 years ago when, when, when we met, like that was one of the things I really appreciated about you is I felt that You're an individual that was holding yourself at a point of leadership, but you weren't like, come, you know, come put me on a pedestal. So like, I'm the same as you, and I want to see you grow and expand the same way I'm growing and expanding, and my vulnerability is my power. And that was really supportive for me because that's what feels intuitive and accurate. And I, I guess in this $100 billion coaching space, it's growing. You know, what I do witness, and I'm, I'm, I have, you know, thoughts and observations, and I'm just experiencing it happening. It's like there is that place where, because of Instagram, because of social media, it's almost like part of the marketing place of how people present themselves is, look at me, life is so great. Like, I, I even struggled, you know, just yesterday, I put up a post about, you know, my house and kind of celebrating and just recognizing a dream coming into creation. But I know for some people that like that's, uh, like they, they've had challenges to achieve their goals and dreams and visions. And I'm sharing that just like for me as a man, I'm not always celebrating myself. And I'm often always thinking about the next thing I want to achieve. So I'm actually trying to slow down enough to say, wow, OK, Aaron, you've, you've done well. Just, just let it sit in. Um, rather than going to the next thing. So, yeah, this, this place of the growing industry of self-development, I feel, um, there's a natural part where if people's ego aren't in check, then There's the egoic idealization that happens of these figures that are quote leading, you know, the, the life of their dreams, and I'm just trying to become that. And it it makes me a little bit sad inside and, and it's also the place, especially I'm I'm. Teaching a lot of groups and retreats of like people coming up at the end and say, oh my God, it's so amazing. And, you know, it's like, yes, but that's also inside of you. So it's a constant place of trying to give that power and authority. And I, and I think this is the, the place of, of, of a curiosity of your take on this. It's like, there is a natural place of power a leader holds when they're in front of a group. There is a natural place of power a leader holds when they're You know, having a large impact in someone's life. So, what have you done inside yourself to consciously and vulnerably like not allow that projected power to get to your own head, to, to, to meet it vulnerably? What, what has been some of the practices and things that you've consciously done to support yourself in this stance of power in your life, in this 30 years you've been doing this work? It's a, it's a great question. I mean, I, I think, you know, this is pretty generic, what I'm gonna say, but, uh, you know, awareness is often curative. So, uh, I would say, you know, step one is be aware, like, how am I impacting my world? How am I impacting a room? How am I impacting the barista at the coffee shop? How am I impacting myself through my own thinking? How aware am I of that? And, and, you know, do, am I slowed down enough to be able to hear that, to be able to see that. And then I, you know, I pivot right away to the spiritual principles that I adhere to. One of those is cooperation. So, am I cooperating with my environment? Am I cooperating in the boardroom? When I'm leading a CEO and the other people in the boardroom to a solution or a decision, you know, are they cooperating? And, and if they're not cooperating, can I demonstrate cooperation and acceptance and alignment in a boardroom or in a meeting, or in a retreat? And so, I'm looking for a highest good. If I'm looking for a highest good, it might mean someone else has the solution, not me. And that's where cooperation and collaboration come in. So the old model of leadership, as you know, Erin, was because I think you have a background in the military, right? So the, uh, the military command and control leader was a t leader and maybe for good reason in some situations. In the military. But that has all changed to me. That's like old. And so one simple thing I do, instead of tell as I ask. See, what are the top 3 things you think we should do? What are the things you want to talk about today? What are the things you're learning about, just like you did when we hopped on for 2 minutes before we got on the, before we went live. Mhm. Like this is a, this isn't me being some expert guru on your podcast. This is me co-creating with you something that might have value for your listeners. So that's how I approach it. Mm mm, yeah, I love that. And two of the, well, one of the things I really heard you say is is slowing down enough to listen. It's like slowing down enough to actually listen to nature, to listen to what's being present, and to get uh out of the way. I, you know, I often say to myself, can I I let like the personality of Aaron Kleinerman get out of the way to allow some greater soul, greater, greater essence of my beingness to express itself through. Um, and, and that, that, that to me is really what I hear in the slowing down, um, slowing down enough to listen. And you know, you, you mentioned in in our quick, uh, you know, kind of check in that you're, you're doing a talk on, um, the art of listening and really, you know, one of your keynotes that you're offering is like in deep listening. And I'd love to just, you know, for the listeners who are here listening, for you to express around, you know, what is the, the, in, in Steven's world, the art of listening. What is that beautiful gift that I, I see you do it well. I see it in our communication right here. Like there's a conscious part of you that's simultaneously expressing, as well as being attuned to the awareness and the things that I'm expressing through. So what, what is it for you that really is the art of deep listening? Yeah, uh, a great question. I think I'll start by saying the, the most powerful attribute for great leadership at this time on the planet is listening. And that would not have been true from my experience 1015 years ago, not, not anywhere near. It was, I'm the authority. Here's what I'm, here's what I think you should do. So, first of all, to understand listening, like, I think most people think listening is, is listening for content. Um, most people aren't listening at all for even content because when the second somebody says something that might, they might have a disagreement to, there's a tendency for people to move into defense or to move into what am I what am I gonna say back? So. If, for example, when you're speaking, I'm thinking, well, what am I gonna say next? Like, I don't wanna look stupid on the podcast, so I better be thinking about what I'm gonna say. I've stopped listening if I do that with you. And so there's a space, and it's, it's deep, that's why I call it the power of deep listening. It's deep inside us, and it's so quiet that I can absorb not only the content of what another person's saying, but the context of what you're saying. Cause most people are saying things they might have said before, but really deep listeners are always creating a new, it's like fresh soil, it's like, it's a fresh idea. That's what comes from deep listening. So I'm not thinking about what I'm gonna say when I'm listening to you. I'm actually listening to you because we have a space, Erin. You and I have a unique space, and any of your listeners, if I were talking to them or you were talking to them, I call it the third space. And I've written about this on my blog a few times. So, our space, your soul, my soul has a third space that's unique to any other space ever created, cause it's your uniqueness and my uniqueness in this space. And we're creating in this space, a listening for whatever gets created here. So we'll, we'll never have this conversation exactly the same way you and I because we're, I'm mostly listening. I say mostly listening because as much as I've practiced it, I'd be lying if I said I'm always listening cause I'm not. I have my identity, the Steven personality that comes in and says, You know, say this or say that or whatever the thing is, but. If we can surrender in a conversation. And cooperate in a conversation and allow the third space to emerge. It's pretty fucking potent to do that because something comes from it that's powerful, but it's through listening that that happens. So leaders often don't listen. They want to tell often because they think they know they're the leader and the leader's supposed to know the answer. I just say that's old, it's passe. It's time to recreate leadership from a place of deep listening, in my view, in my view. Mhm mhm. Yeah, thank you for that and, and really what I'm hearing and what you share is the, the place of soul leadership. It's, it's the, the, the listening beyond the personality attempting to prove itself and, you know, value it's worth in the world. But rather the place of the, the essence of, of the soul that's getting revealed through moment to moment conversational dynamics and, and the, the, the, the art of, of creation that's happening in a symbiotic dance with another, with, with others, with the group and And you know, a few weeks ago, I had uh also on the podcast, a friend of mine who does a lot of, you know, kind of conscious facilitation work, and we were talking about that when you're working with a group. Like having kind of that, that general outline of where you think you're gonna go, but actually, the greatest gift being, can I simultaneously listen to where this group is taking me rather than trying to take the group somewhere and actually the listening to, because there you have many, many souls that are, that are, that are speaking and it's like creating this symbiotic dance together. So actually, the art of listening in that moment for me, and this is one of the The challenges and the gifts, it's like, can I listen to many souls to see where it is, where's the natural journey wanting to be uh taken towards and that that's uh Yeah, it's a, it's a challenge and a, and a beauty in that. I'm wondering, you know, cause we're talking about the 1 to 1 dynamic, but what's been some of your experience in that deep listening, you know, both to a crowd of people you might be speaking to, as well as a group of people that you're, let's say, you know, at a board meeting where there's a, there's a group synergy that's alive. How does that deep listening apply to not just the 1 to 1 dynamic, but the, the, the, the group field and of itself? Well, I, I feel and I believe and probably your friend that you interviewed recently on conscious facilitation is probably excellent at this, but I think that it's incumbent upon us as we facilitate, as we lead groups to create a space where people can really surrender and suspend judgment so that something, something does Get created through the collaboration of the hearts and minds in the room. Um, so, for me, you know, it's I'll give you one nuanced example, like, if I said, you know, I think we should blah, blah, blah, or I think all of you should blah, blah, blah. The second I've said that, I've created resistance in the listening of a group, cause I've said what I think you should do. And it would be natural for any ego to go, well, not me. Fuck that. I'm not gonna be that. I'm not gonna do that. That's not, that's not right for me. So I might use more universal language, and I might say each of us might want to consider. This is a possibility. And now the person can actually receive the content in the context of a suggestion and try it on. And if they try it on and it fits, then bingo, if they try it on and it doesn't fit, then bingo. Do you hear? Like, there's, there's, it's not like right or wrong. It's not like if you, if you take my suggestion, it's better. It's just a suggestion from my experience. So I just think what we're talking about is a major solution to a very critical time on the planet and we see it in social media, Erin, we see it in politics, we see it in business. The second someone says I voted for this and you voted for that, there's an immediate, oftentimes disagreement. So there's no conversation for diversity or learning or alignment. So we'd be shocked. And I've tried this, I've practiced this in my own life. Like, we might, you and I'm, for sure, we don't agree on everything. How could we? We're two different people with two different parents and experiences and life, and, but if I have the attitude that we have more in alignment. than not, we might find that even though we have complete different ideas on XYZ, that there's more alignment there than we thought we can learn from each other now. And now, now a solution emerges that everybody can participate in, and that can happen with, you know, one on one, you and I talking or in a larger group. It can even happen in large groups. People are always listening. Even in a, in a huge stadium, a concert, there's a listening with, with, let's say 60,000 people listening to a rock star. But what are we listening for? Are we listening for that? Because that's a good example, really, because if you love that musician, you already have a listening that they're good and you love them. That's what you feel in a stadium. But if someone came on stage that you, you thought was a different genre of music or something, would you listen? Or would you immediately assume you're not gonna like this one over that one? And you can feel it in the listening of, of, of tens of thousands of people. And then you'll hear a boo. You know, you'll hear on a sports field, you, you'll hear a boo, as the coach didn't do what I thought they should do. So it's everywhere listening. Mhm, mhm. Yeah, yeah, it's uh, I, I, I like that example, um, and, and actually the, the, the audience informing, if you will, in informing what it is that's happening on the greater collective. So, uh, I, I wanna slightly shift gears cause I wanna, you know, something that came up actually last night with the, uh, a client I was working with, and you mentioned it earlier and I'd love to get, you know, your deeper insights, thoughts, perspectives on this place of pain. You know, pain and failure. Pain and failure as something that, you know, and, and also connects a bit to what we're just speaking into, something that The human personality is often very afraid of, you know, the, the pleasure-seeking part of us and the pain avoiding part of us, yet recognizing that it's through failure. That we have some of our greatest learnings. It's through pain that we have some of our greatest learnings. But how to, like, a, what, what has been some of your own personal journeys with that, and also B, like, how to support someone to actually more lovingly appreciate. The gifts of pain, cause it doesn't always feel good. Like when something falls apart or we fail at something, or some financial desire fall, you know, completely dissolves, and we realize, oh wow, I failed at this, or, you know, that was, uh, I can feel the pain of it. And the, the natural part of our human personality that sometimes is avoidant of, like, not wanting to have pain because we think pleasure is better. Like how do we, how do we work with this in a more cohesive way and, and what's some of the things you've done personally as well as working with others? Well, great question. I mean, I'm just sitting with it, and I, I think that it has a lot to do with expectation. So the expectation would be that this woman would never have a business failure like Like you don't start a business to fail it, you start a business to succeed and make great margins on the bottom line and support the community or whatever your vision is, and then it doesn't happen. So your expectation didn't get met. So right there is where people start to get in trouble. And I spoke earlier of a higher good. So we all know, I, I, I suspect all your listeners have heard this before, so pardon me for repeating it, but all suffering comes from arguing with reality. So I'm definitely gonna suffer because I'm arguing now with what's actually happened. Like it should have been different. My business should have succeeded, should have, is the key access to what? The judgment. So it should have succeeded. So now I'm in judgment because my expectation didn't get met. So, rather than getting the learning, what would I do next time? What was valuable about this for my soul, for my spirit to grow from this failure, this expectation that didn't get met, and what would I do differently? I can't get that because now I'm in judgment. And if I'm in judgment, then it, it gets locked in as a karmic pattern in my opinion. And if it gets locked in as a karmic pattern, it's like we start to create a new because now I, now there's like, in my, in my view, the spirit wants to make sure we get the lesson. So then it comes around again. We'll see this often in relationship. Like we'll break up with someone and then 9 months later we're in a relationship it's like, oh shit, this is the same thing I had. With so and so, and now it's back again. It looks different, it's a different face, different bodies, it's different sex, different whatever, but it's, it's like the patterns are the same. So what does one do? Stop judging, suspend the judgment, forgive the judgment, and watch expectations, watch comparisons, which you spoke to earlier. I mean, how do you hear all that, Erin? Is that, it's a lot we're saying in a short amount of time, but what are your thoughts? Well, I, I, I received that and I think in principle, people can, there can be an understanding, like I can have an understanding of suspending the judgments and, you know, recognizing that my judgments are creating my reality. And then it's the, you know, what, what I would reference kind of the, the core rewiring of our beliefs. Because often the, the, the source to which these present day judgments are coming from or coming from the The beliefs that were, you know, formed at very young primal ages of our development, that even though we can have a conscious understanding that, no, I shouldn't be judging, and that's not creating it. It's like there's still the cellular memory inside of us that's creating that same pattern over and over again, just because there's a belief inside that's saying, nope, nope, this is, you know. Bad things are going to happen, you know, it's not safe to do this, you know, I'm, I'm unworthy, whatever the core beliefs are. I, I, I, I, I love the reference. I don't know if you've seen, have you, have you watched the Inside Out movies? The, the, the kind of cartoon Disney animation first watch uh watch the second one when you get a chance because it really like there there's a, there's a scene in it that goes into this exact principle, and I love how they've depicted this in animation and everything else. But this like core belief that gets ingrained in us that then creates our reality moving forward and this. To me, is it like the very essence of the of of this work is, can I help someone rewire that core belief to essentially know themselves as love, not as the fear, not as the unworthiness, not as the, you know, I'm not good enough. All of these things to actually intrinsically know at a deep cellular root. I am love. I am worthy of love, exactly as I am, and I don't need to prove that to anyone. And I think that uh the proving and the expectation is what gets in the way of actually appreciating reality and not fighting with reality is, is my perspective on that. Yeah, beautiful. I love it. I I love what you're saying about the root, like to get to the cause of it. Like, what's the core belief, what's the core limitation? What's the core wound? How do I pull that up, um, through compassionate self-forgiveness is one way? Mm, mhm, mhm. Yeah, and, and uh I think the question of, of that inside of, you know, the work that you, you're doing and you've seen is like this dance between our consciousness and our somatics. This dance between what our, our mind understand and what our body dictates. And, and both how you've supported others as well as how you've seen that in your own life. Let's say, you know, personally in relationship, like you're, you're referencing, you know, I definitely had that experience years ago having the same relationship with the same woman just with a different name over and over and over again, and realizing, wow, OK, I, there's a pattern here, Erin. I look at that pattern. Definitely when, when we met, I was running that pattern quite strongly. Um, But like that, that, that, that deep rewiring and, and how you've been able to, you know, move that into more successful, healthy relationships, especially in your own personal life. Like how, how, how does that work for you? It's a, well, again, it's a journey, right? And I think the first thing is, and I know, I know you've done this, Erin, cause I've, I've, I've actually heard you speak to this before, but it's like, what's So I can look at the pattern in another person pretty easily. It's harder for me to look at the pattern in me. Like, what, what is my pattern that I'm running that isn't my highest good or it's not, it might be my highest good, but it might not be fun or it might not be serving me. So the way I work it in my life is, and I love you said somatic because uh what I'm looking for is, if I get activated or triggered, I wanna know, I wanna feel it in my, like, where is it happening in my body? Like for me, it's in my solar plexus, usually a little bit lower in my belly. And then if I'm really, if I don't, and I'll talk in a moment about what I think the solution, one solution is to it, but It'll start to move up through the heart, move up through the throat, and eventually it's in my head, and I feel like now I'm in my head. And now I'm spinning around, like the, the narrow pathways are just firing all of the fear, firing all the ego, firing all the things from way long ago. They have nothing to do, uh, to the, the situation I'm in. It may have something to do with it, but the trigger activated it. So, what does one do, in my opinion, what one does is become really good at noticing where it is somatically. Like it's just a bubble at first. Like, it's maybe a little intense. Maybe it feels like champagne bubbles. Everybody's gonna have a different somatic experience. But the trick then is to slow it down and get distance from that stimulus to the response. You go, Oh, this is familiar. This is something I've experienced 1000 times. And what's the appropriate response to this activation rather than a response I had 30 years ago to a similar activation. So we bring our past into our present rather than really dealing with the present, better we can get at just creating that gap between stimulus and response and put the love in it like oh wait a minute, this person. Didn't mean to cut me off in traffic, or this person didn't mean to cut me off in a conversation, or maybe this person didn't mean what I thought they meant, and I can check it out, because now I have a gap rather than going off on them or shooting a text or an email that's mean-spirited to get revenge on something, uh, you know, it's like, slow down. Presence is about slowing down. Fill it with love and widen the gap so that the light can come in and I can heal it because it doesn't help other people when I'm reacting, but it sure doesn't help me when I'm reacting. Mhm mhm. Yeah, what, what I'm hearing what you share is really the like pausing with awareness, that kind of sacred pause button that can can can notice the part inside that wants to, you know, rip your partner's head off because, you know, she said this or that or, you know, that that initial kind of triggering response that's like, you know, that comes out as that, you know, very intensity and The, the, the, the awareness piece, I think, is really where that gets lost. Like I had a just came into my mind. I remember a few months back, picking up, um, my beloved at the airport. And, you know, we're just driving out of the airport and I just naturally like pulled ahead of a car cause he was going the other lane. And, you know, this is at a, a community, you know, this is out of the Porto Airport in Portugal at a community retreat center that I'm in the process of, of buying and landing there. And I drove up, like the guy, like, literally rushed through the gate. He's like, you know, coming at me in his car and he's yelling and screaming, and my initial instinct was actually just like a bit of laughter. I'm like, wow, wow, this individual is like clearly triggered. There's something coming up there, like I wanna have empathy, I wanna have compassion. I don't want to have any anything to do with where he's at or any like physical proximity cause it's I could literally feel it wasn't safe. But there was a part of me that like, and I know that my laughing, I think was just triggering that more in him, but I wasn't trying to, I was just actually laughing at the, the human experience of people feeling so like done to. But I, I think that was generally, uh, you know, I, I don't know, but I think there was like, oh, he did something to me and now I wanna, like that primal instinct that wants to now get even with that situation. I'm gonna get you, I'm gonna attack you. It felt like I was going back into a bit of like medieval days, but I know it happens all the time and road rage and people's, you know, immediate reaction rather than having the capacity to notice, well, I'm really pissed right now. Can I observe that inside of me. And not need to run that whole story and wanna, you know, attack and kill someone because they, they felt like they got cut off, you know. Yeah, I mean, we can all relate. I can relate to that, you know, and it's a defense mechanism. So, you know, um, it's, it's how we're wired. Like, it's, there's a reason. For it, as you said, about safety, like, maybe there's even a place for it sometimes where it's important for me to have a fear response to get safe. But we live in a time now where most of those fear responses aren't real in terms of my safety. So, how do I have the awareness to navigate that and to slow it down to be able to assess. What's really going on and what's the most appropriate response. And I just think this is a mark of good leadership. It's a mark of good living. It's a mark of good loving, uh, and it's a practice. And there's, and as you know, Erin, there's a lot of ways to practice it. People can freeform right, they can meditate, they can do cold thermogenesis, they can, uh, take walks in nature. Uh, they could do breath work, I think I mentioned, but there's a lot of ways to practice this distance between stimulus and response. So that we can respond with a more appropriate solution. So my, I, I'd be curious, like what did you do when this happened? Were you, were you safe, and your beloved safe and Yeah, I mean, we were safe. Eventually, I just, you know, kept driving away and we kind of lost him in traffic and, you know, for her actually it brought, it brought up a lot because from the environment that she grew up in, in, in, in Poland, like there was a lot of, a lot of that that had, uh, you know, come up from different previous situations. So actually, You know, I had to kind of be with her for a little bit and, and help her kind of process some of what was arising in her nervous system and from past situations as a young girl, and, you know, with dealing with a lot of kind of, you know, uh male bodies that have lost control of anger. Um, and, and this is, uh, I, I'd love to kind of, you know, divert into this conversation, especially around Two things I'll I'll I'll bring in around like anger and jealousy, because one of the, the pieces of this kind of overall theme is around love, you know, and, and this place of how love shows up, but especially romantic love. And I'm curious for you if there's been some, um, like how you've, have you ever found times in your life of, of jealousy? Is that something that emotion and a thing that you've dealt with in the reference point of love and What's, you know, has there been anger that circulated around that, or what's been some of your personal experience around anger and love, especially anger and jealousy, especially as it relates to, you know, work, you know, being with your beloved or seeing others around and, you know, that very male fire that's like, yeah, that's mine, you know, like, where, where, where is, where's that been applicable for, for you? It, it's been a big part of my journey. I mean, it is uh So going back is funny cause I think my first girlfriend in high school, I was with her for a long time. Like we dated for like 8 years, and that was unusual in high school. So it went from high school into college, first lover, you know, serious relationship. And oh my God, was I ever jealous. Like I You know, she was very beautiful. There was a lot of guys attracted to her in it, especially at that time in high school and college, people weren't in serious relationships, or a lot, at least a lot of my friends weren't. So I had all these rules about how it should be, and they were just getting broken left and right. So I was jealous and the jealousy led to anger. The, you know, the anger led to hurt, and the hurt led to just being unreasonable, you know, so. The outcome was never positive. Um, as I've grown as a human being and as a man, I've practiced what real love is. And, and I love you said I love that you said romantic because Doctor Mary Holnick actually at the University of Santa Monica once and is sharing, said to someone, you know, romantic love is ego-based. And I remember at that time I had the hardest time with that. I thought, what does that mean? I love romance. Like romance is a beautiful thing, but as I thought about it more, romance had a lot of rules to it. And so as I unwound that in my own consciousness, I started to see where love is love and romantic love is different. Like unconditional love has, my experience of it is there's a lot less jealousy, if any, a lot less anger and a lot less. There's, for, for me now at this time in my life, I don't do jealousy. I don't do a lot of anger. I can catch it pretty quickly. But I do hurt. I can move into that hurt. I found that with my wife Veronica, if I say, honey, that really hurt. We're in a good place rather than why the fuck did you do that again? You're always doing that. Like that really pisses me off. Now we're in a whole different, we're in a whole different track. So the vulnerability piece we talked about earlier applies here, and I found that that. a lot deal with my own shit in relationship. Mhm mhm. I, I, I, I, well, I just, yeah, I'll share, and I love that you brought in the vulnerability thing cause I think that's such a, a, a challenge as well as such a gift for a male body to be able to go and transition from fuck you, like you made me hurt to like, oh, like that, that hurts. I'm, I'm sitting with that. And, and, and it. It creates a space for love and connection to be there rather than a wall that says, you know, I need my man cave. I need space away from you, you, you, you fucked up, you know, whatever it may be. Um, yeah, for me, it, it's I, I've never actually been a very jealous person, like that. That's never been something I've, I, my general mindset is like, you know, with a partner and things is if they find something or desire something outside, like, go for it. Like if you're gonna find something that's gonna meet your values more than I am, my soul wants your soul to flourish and be alive, and that's generally how how I am, and that's actually Weirdly, like, kind of pissed off some partners, like my last partner who, you know, I, I now teach with a bit, was a very fiery Italian woman that like was looked up, very jealous and very opinionated and, you know, almost wanted me to be jealous sometimes. So I was trying to like cultivate more of a jealousy thing just to almost like appease part of her value system. Um, but I, I, I, I think that I'm glad that didn't work out for you. I love her. Like we, we have a beautiful relationship with a lot. I mean, I mean the jealousy part like oh yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, um, the, the, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. The anger bit for me, like I think the, the part I had to navigate through was noticing the passive-aggressive part of me that could, you know, see and be good in my consciousness and witness, and, and, but underneath was like, like kind of, you know, passively aggressively creating conflict just to almost be the one that was in control. That's what I noticed myself doing. It was like, I could You know, manipulate situations in a way that would underneath was just my fire, but instead of actually feeling the fire of my anger, I was bringing it to my mind that's really strong and clear and manipulative, just to run stories. So I noticed my rewiring of that is when anger and fire does rise up, is to actually You know, remove myself from the situation the best I can and just do some emotional release tools and move my body and like let the, the, the fire and the energy rise through me, cause then I can then return to conversation with my partner with a level of, like, there, there's more neutrality. There's less of a, of an angry beast inside and more of like a Oh, OK. Like I'm here now. I recognize that you've just given me an opportunity to feel the things that I needed to feel so that now I can actually be in prison. So thank you for that gift that you gave me to feel. And that that was taking a lot of time to be able to do it that way. Far from perfect, but I think I'm, I'm a lot better than where I was before, for sure. Yeah, I love it. I mean, I hear you, and it's a journey for all of us. I mean, Admittedly for myself, it's been an interesting journey and what I've made progress in, and I would also add You know, like Inside Out, you mentioned the film. I remember. You know, there's, there's a certain amount of acceptance too for, I'm just pissed. Like, I don't mean like unproductive or like, you, you said like some, someone earlier you had mentioned that maybe had had some like actual, been harmed physically by someone and their anger. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about, you know, just letting some steam off by saying, you know, I'm, I'm pissed. This hurts. I'm angry about this, you know? And I think There's a lot of judgment on anger, and I think that um I'm not saying people should be angry. I don't want anyone to misunderstand me. I'm saying that it's a natural human emotion to feel angry at times, and I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves. And it can cause what I call a spiritual bypass if I just denounce my anger. Like I'm never angry, and I'm always passive, and I'm always peaceful, and I'm always like, I'm not that way. I mean, there's times I can get a little feisty. So I don't think that's a terrible thing either. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, there's a, there's a, a, a humanness to our emotions and there's not a need to, to bypass it all in, in some level of, you know, spiritual enlightenment is actually a gift in, in being present and what, what we're feeling and, and, and vibrating to our bodies, you know. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, so as we kind of bring this more towards completion, um, curious if there's anything you'd like to express to the listeners about upcoming projects or creations that are coming through you that you'd like to share. You know, I know you're doing a lot out there in the world and would love to, you know, just give you a moment if there's things you'd like to express of of your creativity of your soul that's coming into this, into this world. I just really, thank you, Erin, and, and I'm just really rounding the bend from last year into this year with a lot of gratitude. You know, I, I feel like the last number of years have been really hard on a lot of people, um, for a lot of different reasons that we don't need to go into now as we come to completion. But let's just say, a lot of people dealing with sadness, isolation, separation, um, hardship. You know, sicknesses, etc. So, I just have a lot of compassion for anybody that's listening to this and has been struggling. And, and one of the things I'm doing, uh, uh, in January, I don't know when you'll post this, but if, if anybody wants to join the L4 initiative, it's like $99 and all the money goes to a nonprofit. So it's not, it's just a passion project and it's just 3 different 90-minute sessions, a community of loving people to, uh, reset for a new year, and it's called L4, Light, Leadership, Longevity to life. So we talk about quantum biology, we talk about things that help people to get unstuck. And to create forward, not from a place of I have the answers, but from a place of you have the answer, let's discover what they are. So I would like maybe start the L4 by asking someone like, what lights you up. That's a big question. What lights you up? L I G H T. Like to me, light is living in God's holy thoughts. So what lights you up spiritually, what lights you up physically and living a life that lights us up is part of the L4. So 100 bucks to be in that, and it all goes to a nonprofit. Hm. Amazing, amazing. I think I might, uh, uh, borrow that. I love that. The, the, the, the, the light, you know, living in God's holy thoughts. I really, uh, resonate with that, especially around the, um, you know, the, you could say the expression of how God Um, shows up into our, into our life, you know, not a religious amorphic god, but this kind of brand organized design of existence that's moving through. So, you know, I love that you're doing that. Thank you, brother. Yeah, amazing. Thank you for, uh, thank you for being the leader that you are. Thank you for, for showing up in this world, for continuing to, you know, live, live a life of joy and creation and making the impact that you do. I, uh, I honor you and celebrate you and very grateful for your time and energy here today. Well, right back at you, as I said earlier to me, this is a co-creation, a collaboration between the two of us, and thank you, Erin, for the progress you've made as a leader in the world for the work that you're doing, the voice that you. You are, uh, it's really great to see you, brother, and, uh, bless you as you move forward. All kinds of good things coming your way, I'm sure. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you everyone for tuning in and uh see you next time on Love, Sex and Leadership.