Lindsay: Welcome to the Lifting Lindsay podcast today.
I'm really excited to have Dr.
Allen on here with me.
Um, I don't even know how I discovered you on Instagram, to be honest.
I don't follow a ton of accounts.
I'm very picky about who I follow, but I, I loved your stuff.
So for those of you who don't follow him, um, he posts a lot of Dr.
Allen versus like influencers.
Is that what you say?
Dr. Allan: Yeah, Alan versus influencers.
And one of the reasons that we, that we chose that, that moniker
is because I tend to work a lot of times with Alan Aragon and so as
collabs for these types of things.
And uh, and so it was kind of like Alan's versus influencers in a way.
Lindsay: Oh, I love it.
Do you know what That's, that's it, that's how I found you.
'cause I follow him and you guys must have been linked and
I was like, oh, I like this guy.
And I
Dr. Allan: Well, yeah.
I mean, and it, it was, it's a fun collaboration because, I mean,
you know, that there's a lot of misinformation out there, and with
the way the social media works, it's only gonna get worse and worse.
And so it was a fun way to be able to debunk some of these things and
essentially use the same tactics that these guys use to misinform people, but
to switch it around and inform people.
Lindsay: Okay.
Okay.
Hold that thought.
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Who, for those of you, you're, you're jumping the gun here.
For those of you who don't, for those of my, um, listeners who this is
their first time hearing from you.
Give that two minute amazing sales pitch.
Sell yourself.
Dr. Allan: So this is, this is why we're so bad at giving good information
because we don't sell ourselves
correctly.
So my name is, my name is Dr.
Alan Bacon.
I am a, physique and, certified nutrition coach.
I had originally had a career in, in dental surgery, believe
it or not, and then made the
Lindsay: No way.
Dr. Allan: Yeah.
Yeah.
Lindsay: I was wondering how you got the doctor.
Dr. Allan: mm-Hmm.
Yeah.
And, and so it's funny because one of the things that we're gonna be
talking about is credentialing and, you know, how does that make you a, a,
specialist or an authority in an area.
And it's funny, um, this was a transfer in, in life for quality
of life improvements and, you know, physique, fitness, health, these things
had always been passions of mine.
And I was finding that when treating patients, I mean, it was a difficult
thing because I was working, every day of the year except I got nine days off.
And that included any sick days.
My dad had gotten cancer one time and, and he was a, a doctor.
And I turned to him and I said, Hey, if there was anything that you could
redo, what would, what would you do?
And he said, I, I would love to have spent more time with my family.
I would've loved to have spent, more time actually enjoying life.
And that same year, it was December 24th, 8:30 PM and I was
in doing, emergency surgery.
When, um, my family, my in-laws were having dinner and I was thinking, you
know, this is just, you know, Christmas Eve doing this, you know, going in.
This is something that needs to change.
I turned to my wife and she was a regional's qualifying CrossFit competitor.
She is an American record holding Olympic weightlifter.
I was like, you know, we're both really into fitness.
How about setting up a, a coaching company and doing this on the side?
And she was like, yeah, let's do it.
And we were a great combination because I do power lifting and bodybuilding
and health, and she does the CrossFit and Olympic weightlifting sides.
And, um, so we complimented each other really well and the, uh, the business
took off and then, um, you know, switched over to it full time and,
and have been doing it ever since.
But, um, it's kind of a circuitous route to the, the health and fitness side,
but I think that it's, it's ultimately beneficial because, um, having that
background from, you know, med school anatomy and physiology, um, you know,
microbiology, all that kind of stuff should allow a person to have a little
bit more insight into how the body works, be able to help people a little
bit better, and hopefully I can put that to use to being able to, uh, to
make a difference in people's lives.
Lindsay: Yeah.
That's amazing.
I saw like a glimpse of your wife in, uh, one of your posts, or it might
have been a story or something, and I was like, okay, she clearly lifts.
Who is this woman?
Dr. Allan: She knows what she's doing.
There are a lot of very intelligent people in, in health and fitness.
I think that for the general population, seeing someone live what they preach
can be a really beneficial thing.
And I'm sure that you see this too, because you are in really good
shape and that doesn't, being, being outta shape shouldn't discredit a
person from having good information.
But the reality is for gen pop, that is a big thing.
And so we, we kind of benefit from, from that.
Plus, because we live in Hawaii, we have to stay in shape since it's
bathing suit season all year round,
Lindsay: You have to.
I mean, here I am, here I am in Utah, dead of winter.
There's like, uh, what?
Like a foot of snow out my window so I can cover really well.
This is building season.
Dr. Allan: So we don't, we don't technically have that.
We have, you build and, and you just, you know, you, you
fight the urge to, to cut down
Lindsay: Take cut.
Yes.
Dr. Allan: Well, so we came originally from the East coast and, uh, I grew up
in Maryland and she grew up in Boston.
We're actually ashamed to say that at this point when it becomes
like 67 degrees, we're cold.
Lindsay: Oh yeah,
Dr. Allan: We've, we've adjusted that badly.
Lindsay: Do you know what?
It's okay because I live in Utah and I still feel the same way.
I'm like, okay, like we don't go outside now.
Like we just,
Dr. Allan: I mean, I, I remember when we were living back there, we would
go up to Boston to visitor family and I would be in shorts in 27 degree
weather, and now there's no way.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's crazy.
Well, that's awesome.
Okay.
I love hearing a little bit of your background and also that
you do this with your wife.
Let's go back to what you were saying at the very beginning.
I had somebody explain this to me.
Well, I.
We were having this conversation.
I loved how they put this.
They said, we live in a world where there's tons of food, mass
amounts of food, and yet very little nutrition, and it just like hit me.
Oh my gosh.
We live in a world where there's mass amounts of information
and very little wisdom.
Dr. Allan: Yeah, I, I think that, I think that that's a little,
I think the way that you put it second is, is a good way to put it.
And, and I don't, I don't believe that there's a lack of nutrition.
I believe that there's a lack of nutrition knowledge.
Lindsay: Okay.
Dr. Allan: Um, and I say that because, I mean, even if you look at food
information between like the fifties and now, food is not less nutritious.
Now we're just making the wrong choices in a lot of situations.
Um, you know, you can still get whole minimally processed
foods at the grocery store.
The question is, are you or are you, or are we reaching for
all of the prepackaged food?
It's not that the availability isn't there in most cases, it's that,
um, we've kind of gotten away from,
valuing whole minimally processed foods the large majority of the time.
And we're getting to that stage where we have to be very careful about how we as
health professionals put this out because we don't want to get into a situation in
which we're pushing dichotomous thinking.
We don't wanna say this food is 100% good, this food is 100% bad.
Because the reality is when you look at the research that that goes over
this stuff, when you push dichotomous thinking of, of good or bad foods,
it actually makes it much less likely that a person's going to sustain a
healthy relationship with food and, and longevity with healthy nutrition.
Um, and so your point is a hundred percent valid.
You know, pointing out that we probably need to get better at moderating.
We probably need to get better at valuing, um, lean proteins.
We probably need to get better at valuing, um.
Fruits and vegetables, which is very devoid in our diets.
And it's not an either or.
It's, it's not either carnivore or, or vegan.
And unfortunately we're, we're seeing social media and, you know, documentaries
on Netflix and, and everything like that, pushing it as only one or,
or, or the other really make sense.
Look at all the health benefits here.
Well, yeah, I mean, you can show health benefits to both of them,
but when you look at the research as a whole, what comes out in front
and that's a smart omnivore diet.
So to your point, yeah, we do need to, push, you know, nutritional
education and finding that balance to where we're starting to move away
from some of that highly processed foods to a more whole foods diet and
realizing that we can incorporate some, some more processed foods in
our diet for sustainability purposes.
And
Lindsay: I love that.
Dr. Allan: that's the, that's a hard balance.
Lindsay: It, it is a hard balance, but, but like you said, finding
that moderation, but also just being able to have the wisdom to kind of
spot like, how does this work for my current, calorie nutritional needs?
And I feel like the same thing kind of moves into the mass amounts
of information that we're seeing on social media, on podcasts.
I mean, to be honest, anybody can make an Instagram account,
anybody can make a TikTok account, anybody can make a podcast.
So we kind of understand that anybody can make that.
I mean, I'm a perfect example.
I made a podcast, right?
I didn't go to school, well, I did actually go to school for communications.
Um, so I guess
I'm fulfilling that
Dr. Allan: You're putting it to, you're putting it to use.
That's
Lindsay: I'm, but I, but I also went to school for Spanish, and I'm not
necessarily fulfilling that part.
But anyways, so it, it's interesting because anybody can make it
so we kind of understand that.
Anybody can make it.
So those people who don't have those credentials, obviously we're just gonna
kind of take it worth a grain of salt.
But also we're now seeing that anybody with a master's or doctorate
kind of heavily uses that as leverage to be able to say anything.
Anything.
And I feel like we're just kind of seeing that in the masses.
What are your thoughts on
Dr. Allan: We're seeing this play out in a really negative manner.
The reality is that I'm just as culpable for this as anybody else.
I mean, you know, I, I even have my name down as Dr.
Allen right here.
But the reason that a lot of people do that is because one, it does instill
some immediate credibility, right?
Because you theoretically should be able to understand the body a little bit better
if you've got a background in some kind of medical science and, you should be
able to read research a little bit better.
But the, to your question, people, I wonder, okay, well if a person
has this type of, credential, how do I know if what they're
saying is actually trustworthy?
And the reality is for gen pop, it's very, very difficult to to figure that out.
Because you even have people that, sound like they should be specialists
in areas and their completely off in, in the message that they're giving.
And one of the, the, the examples that stands out to me is Dr.
Ludwig from Harvard.
He's from Harvard.
He is a metabolic researcher and he is 100% wrong in all the stuff that he
pushes because he has tenure at Harvard, and so they can't really get rid of him.
And he makes a lot of money off of the carbohydrate insulin theory.
And unfortunately for him, the carbohydrate insulin theory
has been largely debunked.
We know that insulin is not the cause of fat gain in a calorie deficit.
And how do we know that?
Well, we have mountains of research at this point to point that out.
Wegovy, you know, these, these, um, GLP one mimetics, these drugs that are out,
that people are going towards ozempic, they wouldn't even work if his theory
was correct because they raise insulin.
Yet the issue that he has is that he will push situations where, okay, well look at
this research and he'll show you research.
And in it the insulin is raised and in it the person gains body fat.
Well, insulin is essentially a, a, a transport hormone.
And when you're in a calorie surplus, you've got a lot of extra energy.
So it can transport it into situations where it can be stored as fat.
In a calorie deficit, it doesn't matter how high it is, when you
don't have anything to add to fat, you can't add anything.
And so he manipulates the science to convince people, but he doesn't
mention, oh, this only, this is only relevant in a calorie surplus.
So if you try to lose fat, you're gonna be fine regardless of what your insulin does.
Even the fact that that, you know, protein spikes insulin, I'm
gonna, I'm not gonna mention that.
I'm just gonna say, Hey, cut out all your carbs and you'll be fine.
And we're ignoring all the benefits that those carbs could give.
How do you tell?
Well, unfortunately, credentials are not.
A good way to tell if a person is, uh, is actually correct and
neither is follower account.
And that's where the two main things that people look towards
right now with social media.
So what do you do?
Well, you stay as critical of information as you possibly can.
Assume that anybody that's talking to you, including myself, is wrong.
Just assume that off the bat, that's a good way to start.
And then have a discourse with them if you can.
If you see any of my posts online or if, or, you know, when you see your
posts, you're more than happy to have back and forth conversations with
people, which is a wonderful thing.
So ask them, Hey, you know, you say that the carbohydrate insulin
theory isn't accurate, but Dr.
Ludwig says it is.
And why do you say that?
And he says this, if the person that you're talking to can explain
their stance, and also why the claims of the other guy is wrong.
That's a really good indicator that they actually know the whole story
rather than just this one part of the story that they're trying to show you.
It's like the person that knows what they're doing is, is, you know, turning
the light on the entire room, whereas the person that's trying to convince you
of something that may not necessarily be true is showing you one spot of the room
with a spot with a, with a flashlight and not allowing you to see the rest of it.
And so, you know, I have been asked this question on, on a couple podcasts
at this point, and it's a really difficult thing to, to answer because
there's not a very distinct answer.
But understanding that the person that you're talking to who might be the
authority knows the entire story, is likely where you should be going, rather
than trusting the credentials themselves or the follower count themselves.
You know, for me, I actually had a conversation with somebody yesterday
and they were like, well, why should I trust you and not this other
guy who you're debunk, debunking?
And I said, don't trust me.
Look at the research that I've presented, see if there's any
holes in anything that I said.
See if there's any holes in anything that I've said about what they've presented,
and then come back with questions.
That's literally the best that you can possibly do in the way
the social media is set up.
And what's really confusing for most people is that the people that tend to
be gurus, not all but, but in most cases, tend to have larger follower accounts.
And you have to understand that the reason that that happens is because of
how these social media algorithms work.
If a reputable person comes out and they say, nutrition, sleep, exercise,
stress management, follow these things and you're gonna do 99% of the best
that you possibly can for health.
You get six likes.
If another person comes out and they say, you have to go sun your taint and
you'll get a 200% dopamine increase, and then you need to ice in a tub for three
hours a day and you're gonna boost your dopamine and you're gonna boost your heat
shock proteins and you're gonna boost your, you know, and, and they start going
out with these just outrageous claims.
All of the people who are anti-establishment will hit like all
of the people who believe in sleep, stress, nutrition, and exercise
will argue in the comments section.
Lindsay: Which gives it a boost.
Dr. Allan: Yes.
Both of those groups will share it.
The taint sunners will say, Hey look, this is amazing.
He there, he's agreeing with what we say.
And look at these, these studies that were done in Singapore on two nematodes
and see what it did and look at, that's proof that what we do works.
And then somebody else goes out and they go, this is the most
ridiculous thing in the world.
Let's laugh at this.
But they've shared it too.
You have double or triple the reach of a person that's telling you,
Hey, you should sleep eight hours.
The social media algorithm is not set up to give you good information.
It's set up to give you the most outrageous type of
information that you can find.
So instead of getting the reputable type of information that we're
getting, we're essentially getting Jerry Springer day in and day out.
But it, but Jerry Springer is being presented as a, you know, a reputable TED
talk or, or whatever you want to consider as, as a reputable source of information.
I think deep down, you know, when it's explained, I think that we know that.
But I think that we're, when we're in the moment consuming this
information, we don't know that.
And I think that it becomes very difficult because I, just like
if I were to go into a mechanic and say, my car's making a noise.
You know, what's the problem?
They could literally tell me anything and I'd just be like, okay.
I think that that's how general population deals with the body and
nutrition and exercise and there's so much, there's more bad information
out there than there's good.
And so how are you supposed to know what is good?
And there's not an easy answer, you know, short of, you know, going through
these science courses, it's ask questions and be overly critical of people, you
know, grill them with questions and, and allow them to explain that to you.
It's the best that you can possibly do.
And I wish there was an easy answer.
Lindsay: That was such a good, that was such a good response though, because as
I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, yeah, the people who really know their stuff,
they're not threatened and it's not about, they're not threatened by questions.
They invite them from a genuine place, I mean, you can tell when it's just a toxic
person coming at you versus a genuine,
Dr. Allan: Have you heard that term?
Sea lioning?
Lindsay: no.
What's that?
Dr. Allan: Sea lioning is a disingenuous form of discourse.
I bring this up because this is what I fall into a lot of times with people
who are emotionally involved in one of the things that are being debunked.
Sea lioning is a disingenuous form of discourse where you ask questions,
not because you're actually trying to learn, but because you're
trying to trick somebody or, or catch them or, or infuriate them.
Um, and as an example, I had one guy who, we debunked, um, yesterday a, a,
a thing where somebody claimed that, I think it was something like 60% of
whey protein is converted to glucose,
Lindsay: Oh my gosh, I saw
Dr. Allan: which is absolutely ludicrous.
I mean, gluconeogenesis is the, the process of converting protein
to glucose, which can happen.
It does not happen very readily.
And if you eat carbs.
It almost doesn't happen at all.
And it doesn't happen 'cause your body doesn't need to
convert glucose from Protein one.
It's really hard.
It is.
It's very easy to convert carbs to glucose because it doesn't take 15
different steps in the interim to do that.
Whereas with, with protein, it takes a lot of extra steps and your body's
gonna be as efficient as possible.
Your body's
Lindsay: Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Allan: Your body's going to be as efficient as possible.
And so this, this guy was, was arguing with me and he was trying
to say, well, why are you, why are you promoting whey protein?
Because it was whey versus an egg.
And the claim was that you should never have whey protein because eggs
provide protein in a better manner.
And the, the debunking of that was it's context dependent because,
um, they're both very viable and bioavailable sources of protein.
One comes likely with a lot less calories per the protein.
So maybe somebody needs more protein in their diet, but they don't need extra fat.
They're already eating enough eggs.
Or avocado or other sources of fat.
So maybe the, extra eggs in their diet could be prohibitive because it would
put them over in their daily calories.
And gaining fat is probably not the right move.
And so it's context dependent and people hate the answer of it depends,
which is literally the answer for 99% of fitness and nutrition questions.
It always depends.
And so in a, in an attempt to be very disingenuous, um, and I kept saying
it's context dependent, you know, who is the person, what are their goals?
What does the rest of their diet look like?
How does this fit in the overall diet?
Both of them are excellent sources of protein.
Both are excellent sources of food and neither of them really comes
with a major negative unless you're eating like 30 eggs per day, you could
potentially have some cholesterol issues.
In normal intakes
it's not a problem for cholesterol, it's cholesterol normative.
But again, this is that, there's so much nuance to this and that's why
I'm kind of like rambling about this because it takes a lot of discussion.
So I kept saying it's context dependent.
And he's like, okay, well if you're trapped on an a, a desert island and you
can only have an egg or whey protein, I'm like, this is not, this is not the
situation in which we are being presented.
You're, you have a grocery store.
Like, you know, there's other things that you're eating.
Lindsay: I think that's the last thing that's gonna be on your mind
if you're trapped on an island too,
like.
Dr. Allan: he, he literally asked this 10 minutes before we started this podcast.
And, and in my mind I was laughing so hard about it 'cause I, I had explained
that it was context dependent each time.
And there's a lot of questions that you would need to ask to
figure out if this is right.
You know, is this the end of the day and we only have a hundred calories that we
need to get 15 more grams of protein?
Well, egg's not gonna work.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Dr. Allan: It's so funny when people bring up these situations because
they're literally just trying to prove a point and not trying to learn.
And that's fine.
And even when you're talking with somebody who is an supposed authority
on a subject, and if I'm debunking something, I'm the supposed or, or
self-appointed authority on it, right?
Whether I'm right or not.
I could be wrong.
And that's, that's okay.
So present your case in a genuine manner, you know, present some peer-reviewed
research or a relevant situation in which you could say, Hey, you know,
I've looked at what you've presented and I don't think that this fits
what you're saying and this is why.
And that's okay.
Let's not create a scenario where we're days from death because we can't get
water and are trapped on a desert island.
And so, you know, is what's the difference between whey and and an egg?
I mean, do I have a shaker cup?
Do I have water available?
Like what amount of whe versus what amount of eggs?
And like in my mind I kept thinking the answer is whatever has more calories.
Because if I'm trapped on a desert island, any of the minuscule differences
in vitamins and minerals will make no difference in the absence of calories.
'cause I'm just gonna die.
So I didn't wanna answer that 'cause I didn't wanna fall
into this sea lion in context.
But, but this is an example of people will get out there and be very disingenuous.
And so if you are a person that wants to know who to follow and wants to actually
objectively learn, then objectively learn.
And don't go into it with a, oh, I'm gonna prove my stance.
Don't prove your stance.
Don't ever try to prove your stance.
Try to figure out, why is what I think potentially wrong, and maybe
it isn't, but you need to be critical about that because you can be wrong.
And even anybody with a doctor in front of their title can easily be wrong.
I mean, we see it all the time on social media.
So, just like gen Pop needs to be overly critical about themselves,
so do we as as fitness and nutrition providers, but part of us being genuine
is receiving legitimate questions and legitimate critiques rather
than emotionally driven critiques.
Lindsay: There's, there's somebody that I can, uh, think of, um, I used
to follow him and then he, he blocked me, but I, I shared a study and he,
that, that was very threatening to him.
But anyways, so he blocked me, but it's frustrating.
I remember when I followed him for a short time, and people would ask him questions
and his response was, that's stupid.
Or You're stupid if you believe that.
And I'm like there's too much ego involved here.
So I feel like if you're gonna follow somebody, a huge red flag
can be like, are they more concerned about who's right or what's right.
Dr. Allan: Yeah.
I, you know, I, I a hundred percent agree with you.
Um, I, I'm, I'm, I'm hesitantly responding because I, I can remember long ago when
I first started, I was a lot worse at responding to some of these questions.
I mean, like years and years ago.
And I'd be like, look at the research.
I literally presented it.
Now I'm a much more patient person.
And so as you're, as you're saying that, I a hundred percent agree with you.
And I think that there are going to be times where people that
you talk to on social media are going to be emotionally defensive.
And even people that know what they're talking about are
being emotionally defensive.
I don't think that there's necessarily an excuse for acting that way, but I
do understand sometimes why, why we do.
Now if, if you're, again, this is, this all goes back to being genuine
and why, and why I think you're reinforcing that message really well.
If you have a critique of a person, please try not to bring up desert
islands, but please do actually pay attention to what they're saying.
And then if you have a critique and you say, okay, well, and, and I've seen this
all the time in our, in, you know, the debunks that I do, if a person says,
well, I see the information that you presented, but I see this study and
this study says something different.
And, um, that's fine.
I love that.
There's one of two things that are gonna happen.
Either I'm gonna see that and say, oh, shit, he's right.
And then, then I potentially have to amend the way that I think, or
I'm gonna look at that and I'm gonna be like, well, I actually covered
why this doesn't make any sense.
But then I get to point that out, and that, that happens more often
than not with people that really know what they're talking about.
But that's okay because when you point out why those studies
aren't necessarily relevant, that person can potentially learn.
But more importantly than that, because a lot of times those people are
emotionally vested, more importantly than that, all the lurkers are gonna learn.
Lindsay: Mm-Hmm.
Because
Dr. Allan: the people that don't say anything tend to be more objective
than the person that's that's arguing.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Dr. Allan: And so for the, for the fitness professionals out there
that are really trying to make a difference, keep that in mind.
I mean, that's, that's one thing that, that I learned, and I, I try
to keep in mind every time that I respond to people until it becomes
ridiculous, that it's not just a conversation between you and that person.
There are a lot of people that are learning from it.
So if you can display why some of those things are wrong, you're
gonna answer a lot of questions that haven't explicitly been posed.
And the problem with a lot of these people that are spreading misinformation,
the, the gurus in the charlatans is there is a very, very, um, molecular and
animal heavy slant to their research.
Lindsay: Mm.
Dr. Allan: people don't realize that molecular data and animal data,
it very rarely translates directly to humans and in the human body.
You know, I could take someone's liver and I could, I could do something to
it, and I could, you know, put a whole bunch of, of whatever ingredient it is
in a medium with this liver, and we could cause liver failure in the human body.
It might not look anything like that.
It might not look anything like that because your kidneys are also functioning
and your kidneys are removing the large majority of that ingredient
from the body before it even has a chance to do anything to the liver.
And so in conjunction, the human body is a very complex and amazing thing.
And so when we get into these things, like nematodes or, or rats or, or
molecular data, even the in vitro data where we're using human cells, there
are compensatory mechanisms in the body and additional mechanisms in the
body that will often prevent these problems from even remotely happening.
So, you know, the dose of whatever's happening is really important.
The movement of the rest of the pieces of the body is really important.
And so be very careful when you are engaging with these people and make
sure that they're giving you research that's in humans showing practical
effects at realistic intakes or, methods of whatever you're trying to do.
And I mean, one of the things that pops up to me is cold water
immersion and, and cryotherapy.
99% of the information that these people are giving out to prove that cold water
and cryo works requires you to sit in an ice tub up to your neck for over an hour.
It requires you to spend a lot more time doing things that you could get the same
results, doing other things that are much shorter and provide much more benefits.
Lindsay: And more enjoyable for most of us too.
Dr. Allan: and more enjoyable.
Yeah.
There's, the dopamine angle comes into play, and I'm gonna give this example
because it's, it's a good way to discuss this and, and give a practical
example of what I'm talking about.
So there are, there are podcasters that will come out and I've actually
heard them say, if you get in cold water for three minutes, you're
gonna boost your dopamine by 250%.
One, that's never been, I've actually heard that exact claim,
and it's by a person that has over a million followers on, on Instagram.
One that's never been shown.
There's a study that shows that there's a 250% increase in
dopamine, and it was done in 2000 by someone named Shreek, I believe.
Don't quote me on the last name, but I can get it to anybody
that wants, just message me.
But they, they sat in ice for an hour.
The problem with this is you can get a comparable increase to that by just
getting on a bike for 10 minutes.
A stationary bike, you can get a significant increase in dopamine by just
sitting still for five to 10 minutes.
And this dopamine increase when you look at the research, if you do this
icing or cryo repeatedly, the dopamine increase attenuates, it becomes less and
less and less each time that you do it.
But none of that's mentioned.
So instead they're selling thousand dollar cold tubs, for a, an effect
that you could get by hopping on a bike for 10 minutes and then
increasing your cardiovascular health.
Going for a run for 10 minutes would do this.
Increasing your cardiovascular health, increasing stroke volume
so you perform better aerobically.
There are all these nuances and it's really difficult to discuss this because
you get the guy with a million followers and, you know, without even remotely
looking at any of the research he presents, people just take that as gospel.
And so debunking stuff is a, is unfortunately a, a daily job.
But it's something that I think is, is really important because
I don't think that people realize how much they're being misled.
Lindsay: Yeah.
I'm torn a little bit on sometimes how it's done.
I
Dr. Allan: The debunking itself.
Yeah.
Lindsay: I really appreciate how you do it.
You usually keep it comical light.
I'm not a huge fan of inciting a ton of anger and hate on the internet.
I think it already exists out there.
Dr. Allan: I think that debunking itself is gonna incite anger and
hate regardless of how you do it.
The reason that, that I like to do the humor in it is because it's the only way
that I can get through it day to day.
I mean, it's a lot of, it's a lot of content creation and like when I start
to think, oh, this would be fun for me to do, like, I, that actually motivates
me to, to get out there and do it.
And I understand that there are a lot of people that, that hate there,
there are far more people that like it, but there are a lot of people
that, that dislike debunking stuff because they, they feel like it's
essentially attacking the person.
But I think that it's, it's a necessary evil in some ways, and it's necessary
because there is no overarching body that actually looks out for the information
that's being put out there, right?
So this directly addresses false and misleading information, and, and in
the way that at least I do it, there's at, there's at least accessible and
verifiable peer reviewed research.
It, you know, ends up protecting the public from health professionals
who may be preying on them from their fears and misconceptions.
It can prevent no SIBO or exacerbation of disordered eating.
These things need to be addressed and unfortunately, as we discussed
earlier, they're gonna have much higher reach being completely off the wall
and making absolutely insane claims,
like you're gonna improve your dopamine by 250% with three minutes,
which has never been shown, but it, it spread like wildfire.
People just take it at face value.
People are more willing to take outrageous claims at face value than
they are peer reviewed research.
And so in a way, we almost have to be as engaging and humorous, but
we have to do it in a way that is ultimately, hopefully for someone
else's benefit instead of for our own.
But to be able to reach people on social media, you have to play the game.
Lindsay: See, I hate that though.
This is actually a really good conversation right now because I,
I feel this need, I so much when I see these things out there that
I'm like, this is ridiculous.
And I get tons of people messaging me saying, have you seen this exercise
or have you seen this diet method?
Or have you seen this claim?
And I, and I end up in my, like with my clients or my app user
spending so much time debunking.
But I'm hesitant because I, I don't want, just like what you said,
I don't want to attack a person.
I don't wanna shame a person, but I, I am like struggling right now with
this, but, we need to address the ideas that are being perpetuated.
And like you said, it's not just like this idea is in and of itself is
inaccurate, it's what are the indirect effects it's having or direct on people's
relationship with food, with fitness, with just overall time management.
Because now they think that they need to throw in some new modality into
what's already working and what's already giving them these same benefits.
But they don't know that.
And I'm, I find myself really struggling.
How do I show up having integrity and acting in a way that I believe is in
line with my own principles that I like to follow, but at the same time, how do
I show up for other people to say no.
I know Huberman is a really nice person, but a lot of the people he has on his
show is spreading such wild information.
I believe it's hurting rather than helping.
And it's like, how do I, I don't know.
What are your thoughts on that?
Because I, I
Dr. Allan: you You wanna be able to sleep at night is
essentially what you're saying.
Lindsay: Yeah.
I
Dr. Allan: Af after putting out content.
Right.
Um, you know, it, it's, it's difficult and these people that we're debunking,
they don't seem to have any qualms with spreading bad information.
And so unfortunately you are, you're dealing with
a situation of how can you actually help people.
And so you need to find that balance for you.
And, and that balance is gonna be different for every person.
And not everybody's going to agree with the way that you do it.
I can tell you that when I would put out stuff and say, Hey,
this is a controversial topic.
Here's the research.
People don't really seem to care.
Now when you're addressing someone else's claim, then all of a sudden
they've got a lot of questions because it's almost like, it's almost like, hey,
they wanna be part of that discussion.
So it works significantly better than just putting out information.
And I tried for years with just putting out blanket information,
Hey, this is, this is what it is.
And, and it just, it doesn't seem to work.
Ultimately what I had to ask myself is when I'm debunking this
person, do I feel like they are smart enough to actually know what
they're saying is probably wrong.
And in, in 99% of the cases, the people that I debunk, I'm like,
they know what they're saying is
Lindsay: wrong.
Yeah.
Dr. Allan: and they're doing it because they want to become famous
or they want more money and they literally don't care what's happened
to the people that they're hurting.
And I think that when you make a lot of money from putting something
out, I think that you can convince yourself of a lot of things.
But maybe if you finally get challenged, you start to acknowledge
or at least get a little bit more concerned about making brazen claims.
And so maybe challenging some of these people is the right way to help
ultimately down the line thousands and thousands of more people by
making them hold some accountability with the platforms that they have.
Because right now there's no accountability to these large podcasts
and, and social media platforms.
There's none.
And, and the biggest problem is then who's gonna police this?
And it's gotta be one people that know how to give the right information.
So it's gotta be somebody that is educated on the topic.
Then you need to somehow be able to reach people.
So like you said, they stop wasting their time on the small rocks to
fill the basket, and they actually pay attention to the large rocks.
Because right now all we're doing is paying attention to small rocks
on social media, extended fasts, uh, antinutrients, menstrual phase
training, cold water, cleansing, toxins, seed oils, and corn syrup.
I mean, all of these things have been so massively blown out of
proportion or misrepresented.
And, and how do you, how do you address this?
I mean, and every time we come up with a debunking video, you see
people arguing the opposite stance.
And so clearly a lot of damage has been done.
And like I said, you have to find that balance with what you're comfortable with.
I actually feel less bad about debunking a doctor than I do
about debunking somebody else.
Because in the back of my mind I'm like, you have the education to know
that what you're saying is wrong.
And yet you are either choosing to ignore the information or you are
actively pushing the wrong information.
And so is the direct debunking method, correct.
It's not correct for everybody.
Does it work?
It works.
Does it help people?
It helps a lot of people.
It's difficult to 100% justify showing up someone else's video and saying,
this is a hundred percent wrong, even when it is a hundred percent wrong.
And it's difficult to do that because, you know, in a way there's, there's going
to be people that always disagree with that, but does it do more harm than good?
I mean, if you're giving the right information, I think
it does a lot more good.
Lindsay: Hmm,
Dr. Allan: it's just something to consider and, and does that
make it the right move for you?
Maybe, maybe not.
And it's not the right move for everybody.
Lindsay: hmm.
No, I love that.
I love hearing that.
We're gonna finish with one other topic.
We're gonna kind of shift gears, well, not really, but you talked about doctors.
Now I wanna talk about a different population, and that's just like
the people with the good stories.
There's always somebody with a really good story, and that's how they get big and
sell themselves, and they do it on TikTok and Instagram and all that good stuff.
They, they, they share, personal stories of how doing, like you said, just getting
in cold water every morning and they have this big, huge story around it.
That's why everybody should do it.
People love stories, so it's not just these doctors that have this
power, it's somebody with a really good story that has that power.
And tell me your thoughts on this.
I've been thinking a lot about this lately, about these
stories that people tell.
They always tell these stories to prove that they're right.
And I'm like, but do you know what?
I have kids and I listen to their, the whole, correlation isn't causation.
I listen to my kids making correlations and I'm just like,
oh my gosh, you're horrible.
Dr. Allan: Yeah, I mean the, the
Lindsay: horrible at this.
Dr. Allan: the story aspect is even more influential than, than
anything else because people want an emotional connection.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Allan: connections really make a big difference.
That's actually why the debunking tends to work, because people
love that emotional, it, it raises
Lindsay: emotion.
Yeah.
Dr. Allan: so, and so you can use that for good or evil.
The problem is being an evidence-based person.
I hate that moniker,
Lindsay: term just like has loft.
Its,
Dr. Allan: it's so subverted at this point.
But with as much citations as I dump in
Lindsay: There you go.
Dr. Allan: I think, I think I can put it at least sometimes, people are
gonna be so angry when they hear this.
People don't know anything about their bodies.
You are not, you.
don't know anything.
You don't know anything about your body.
It works for me.
You don't know that.
You just, you don't.
And and it's funny because if you look at any of the placebo research out
there, I mean, it, it proves over and over and over again that people don't
know anything about their bodies.
You don't know what works.
What does work?
Expectation effects work.
What does work is the base things that we're all pushing.
Let, let me give you an example.
Um, fasting.
I fasted for three straight days and I lost a lot of weight.
Therefore, in my experience, fasting is the best thing ever.
And fasting works.
Okay.
So let's look at the research when we compare a fast to an iso
caloric continuous standard diet.
Zero difference
Lindsay: mm-Hmm.
Dr. Allan: In controlled situations where a person has been sequestered.
They feed them the food, they monitor what they eat.
No difference.
No difference in body comp.
No dis difference in cardiometabolic Risk factors, no difference in
blood lipids, no difference in autophagy, no difference in cancer
risk or susceptibility.
But there is a risk to muscle loss when you're doing these extended fast.
So there is a negative to extended fasting, but you'll hear people
talk about all the time, well, fasting really works for me.
Well, okay, well let's think about what's happening here.
Well, you've stopped eating, which means your muscle
glycogen stores are gonna drop.
There goes a bunch of weight, there's no food in your system.
There goes a bunch of weight.
Your body's flushing out water because there's no gradient.
There are less electrolytes in your body.
There are less carbs in your body.
So there's not anything to pull water into the musculature or into other spots of the
body where, where, uh, glucose sits and, um, all that weighs a significant amount.
And so dropping five or six pounds in three days, well, yeah, uh, but
maybe half a pound of it, a quarter of a pound of it's fat, and then the
rest is muscle, glycogen and water.
But for everybody else, they're like, well, I just lost a ton
of weight, therefore this works.
You can continue that out for, for longer periods of time or higher frequency,
and you're gonna continue losing weight.
But why?
It's because we know that that calorie deficit works.
And that's what that, that research between the continuous dieting and,
and the extended fast tells us the continuous diet works in the same manner.
It may take a little bit longer, but it takes a little bit longer
and you retain your performance, you retain that lean muscle.
That's much harder to get than, than losing fat is.
You don't have some of these other risks of micronutrient deficiencies
that come with it, but these people that have the experience of, well, I
fasted and, and I lost a lot of weight.
Well, yes, but you don't really know what you lost.
You're assuming that you lost body fat and you, you looked in the mirror
and you look a lot better because you lost a lot of water weight.
So you look more shredded than ever before because you're dry.
But then you start eating carbs again, and you start drinking
water again, and then you blow up.
And you know, there's a lot of people that are saying, well, no,
you know, I continued fasting and it kept going down and down and down.
Yes.
And then you lost more and more and more lean muscle, which made
the, the weight loss go faster.
So there's a lot of negatives that people don't look at.
And so these, these experiences are clouded by what we want to see
in a lot of, a lot of instances.
And, you know, going back to the, to the icing, because you, you talked
about how icing is something that people say, I do this and I feel amazing.
Okay, well we know that,
a, you're gonna get a, uh, a short-term boost of your sympathetic nervous
system when you jump in ice, I mean, you get the same thing when you're
scared or when you run or when you listen to, to happy music, you get a
boost and you feel, you feel great.
On top of that, if you believe that this is something that really works,
expectation effects kick in, you placebo yourself, and it's amazing
what we can convince ourselves of.
And so, are these stories reputable?
No.
They're, they're the farthest thing from reputable.
What control did they have?
Did they compare it to a situation where they did, you know, for a fasting person,
I fasted and I lost this much weight.
Okay.
Well, did you compare that to a, an isocaloric continuous diet?
How much weight did you lose there?
Well, I didn't do that.
Okay.
Well, did you get a DEXA scan to see how much muscle you lost
versus how much fat you lost?
Well, I didn't do that either.
Okay.
Well, what happened to your performance during this period?
Well, I didn't watch that.
So you don't really know what happened.
I guess not.
Okay.
There's so much about all of this that's, so you're just
taking a, a person's word for it.
And, and, you know, for the, for this is putting it really bluntly, but it's
essentially like saying, trust me, bro,
Lindsay: Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Allan: happened.
But when you say, trust me, bro, it doesn't sound as convincing
as, look at how I changed my life.
And I, you know, I, I gave my sense, you know, you, you reword this differently
to be very emotionally motivational.
And I'm not saying that anecdote doesn't have value because
anecdote does have value, but
anecdote does have value when we don't have controlled research to guide our
thoughts on a particular topic, when we have controlled research that has
been repeated ad nauseum and shows things like a continuous isocaloric
diet is the same or better than fasting.
That suggests to us that maybe the benefits we think that we're getting
from fasting are largely based on the calorie deficit itself, and
maybe we're not getting as many benefits as we thought we were.
Lindsay: mm-Hmm.
Dr. Allan: If there is an absence of information in the research, then anecdote
probably has a little bit more sway and it has more sway because the, even if it is
placebo, that could give us some benefits.
But if we have distinct indications that there are negatives to a practice
that we're doing, whether it's eating full carnivore where we can say,
there's a lot of research showing that fruits and veggies have a ton
of health benefits, particularly long term, are you gonna lose fat?
Are you gonna lose weight really quickly on carnivore?
Yeah.
The same reason that you lost it for fasting.
You stop eating carbs, your muscle glycogen is tanked.
Your, you know, all these other things happen with vegans.
Well, well if you look at our research, you showed that cardiovascular health
is much better and, and epidemiological studies and an associative data then
eating meat?
Well, yeah.
'cause fruits and veggies are good.
That doesn't mean that meats meat's bad.
It means when you take your research and you compare it to a
McDonald's diet, yeah, your veggies are better than a McDonald's diet.
But when you actually look at the legit research that compares a smart omnivore
diet, it's better than both of those.
But that doesn't make a Netflix documentary because people don't want
to see that they can eat chicken and fruits and veggies and whole grains.
They want to see what's the trick that I haven't tried that will give me
immediate, dramatic results, even if it isn't sustainable or even if it isn't
the right thing for health long term.
But those things kind of go out the window because we want that feeling
of being special and knowing a trick and being emotionally involved
or, or part of a group that knows something that other people don't.
And so your idea of this touch on an emotional aspect is extremely
powerful, extremely relevant, and extremely unreliable.
Lindsay: Mm-Hmm.
It's true.
And we, it, it, but it, it, I'm so glad you're saying this because this is
something that over the past few days I've been thinking so much about and I, I
had somebody tell me a story of why they believed they hadn't had any injuries.
But they're like, well, I was doing this one workout by this other influencer, and
then I changed to another influencer's workout and they had me stretching.
And because I was stretching, I didn't have injuries for five years.
And, and I'm like, but what else changed?
One the way you were lifting with the former one and the exercise
selection of now this new one were completely different, but did
we take that into consideration?
No.
So we weren't doing these weird frog pumps anymore.
Now we were going through movements that were working in
the extreme more in and of itself.
Those are showing to increase range of motion for movements to,
well, I don't want to blow up any correlation between injury prevention.
'cause really the only direct correlation that we're seeing,
and correct me if, if you've seen something else, is, is really sleep.
Like that is the main one.
Dr. Allan: So I, I've done in-depth dives on this,
I was actually laughing about this because it's a wonderful example and it's a
wonderful example because if you look at every single systemic review on stretching
there is, it doesn't reduce injury risk.
It
Lindsay: Thank you.
Thank you.
Dr. Allan: reduce injury risk.
And I have, I have had so many people get super angry at me because I'm not
saying stretching can have some value and that warming up doesn't have value.
Warming up is fine, warming up is fine.
It doesn't need to be stretching.
Um, you could do dynamic stretches, you could do just the weight that you're
gonna lift, the, the movement that you're gonna do, but lighter and then progress
up stretching does not reduce injury risk.
The number one thing that does reduce injury risk and stretching it, it might
have a very small effect, but it's so small, it's statistically insignificant.
The number one things that reduce injury, risk, weight, training,
sleep, the way that you're feeling mentally and emotionally at the time.
And it's not even form, form to an extent is important, but
perfect form is a myth first off.
But you don't need perfect form to get everything that
you ever want out of fitness.
You just need adequate form.
So as long as you're not like completely doing, you know, asinine
things, you're probably fine.
Now the, the constant dynamic movements like a hundred box jumps in a row.
Yeah.
Dynamic movements have a very high injury risk.
That's why team sports constant cutting back and forth, forth, you know, the,
Lindsay: But isn't it because of the level of fatigue that's being incr, like
Dr. Allan: neuromuscular fatigue.
Um, and, and there's just a risk from repetitive dynamic movements
can increase injury risk, which is why bodybuilding is the, the least
dangerous thing of all time, because it's
Lindsay: less so than yoga when I read that
Dr. Allan: know if I've seen, I don't, I don't, I'm not aware of that data.
I know that compared to like team sports, team sports are like 15 times more likely
to give you an injury than bodybuilding
Lindsay: Mm-Hmm.
Running is more
likely,
Dr. Allan: yes.
Um, so, so yeah, there's a ton of things that are far more
important than stretching.
I mean, sleep is a, is a significant one.
It's, it's a very significant one for injury risk because if you're not mentally
there during a lift and you get under load and, and you know, you mis groove.
Now that is a little bit of a, of a form issue, but it's more because of
the fact that you mentally aren't there.
And that's one of the reasons that emotional status can play into injury
risk because you're mentally not there and not, not really paying
attention to what you're doing.
But weight training is the number one thing that you
can do to reduce injury risk.
Bar none, and it's not even close.
Lindsay: I love that you brought up form.
I have a live in like one minute, but I just wanna touch on this one because
I am one that people are like, Lindsay, but you say you have to have good form.
And I say, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I say that if you are trying to work a muscle, then we probably
want to stay within the range that that muscle can contract, contract
and contribute to the movement.
But going a little bit outside of that range, as long as, and this is, this
is kind of what we're seeing now, is as long as you have, progressively your
body has worked up to that weight, you're not, you know, doing squats with minimal
range, and then all of a sudden with the same amount of weight, you're going down
and doing like, butt winking, squats.
Squats.
And then you're like, see, I injured myself because of the butt.
Wait.
No, no, no.
You, you are now increasing your range of motion at a weight
that you hadn't built up to.
Dr. Allan: Your body is very adept at, um, being able to adjust to
stressors that you put on it.
But you have to progress up in that spinal flexion.
When deadlifting, one of the best deadlifters of all time, has a lot
of spinal flexion and he does not get injured, um, butt wink is really not
that big of a deal for 99% of people, you know, all these things, they don't matter
as long as you've progressed up slowly.
The people that get injured are like you say, they all of a sudden do an
what's essentially a different lift.
If you're
Lindsay: Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Allan: know, 75 degrees to like 180 degree squat, then
you've created a different lift.
If you are going from 225 pounds to 315 pounds and you've only ever
lifted 235, you're gonna get injured.
And that's why you see some of these injury rates in, in competitive strong
men and competitive CrossFitters.
Not that the sports themselves are inherently wrong, it's
that these are people that are challenging their boundaries.
And when you go outside of your boundaries, yeah, you're gonna
be at a much higher rate of risk.
So if you don't progress things up slowly and gradually, you're going
to greatly increase your injury risk.
Lindsay: Hmm.
Love it.
Okay, we're gonna have to end with that.
Thank you so much for coming on.
I'm gonna have you on here in the near future again.
We can continue to talk about all the good things.
I feel like we're just getting started.
Dr. Allan: There's a lot to talk about, but thank you so
much for having me, Lindsay.
Thank you everybody for listening and if you want to reach out at
any time, um, certainly send me a message on Instagram and I'm happy
to answer any questions people
Lindsay: Oh, I, I'll also put in the show notes where to find you on Instagram.
Do you do one-on-one Coaching?
How,
Dr. Allan: Yeah, I, I do all exclusively online coaching, and you can look up
any information at mauiathletics.com.
Lindsay: Okay.
We'll include a link to your site as well.
Thank you so much.
You've been, you've been amazing.
I've loved having you on.
Dr. Allan: All right.
Thank you, Lindsay.
I appreciate it.
Lindsay: okay.
We'll talk to you later.
Dr. Allan: care.