WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.770 Matt: Eric Karkovac, welcome to the WP Minute. 00:00:02.480 --> 00:00:03.559 Eric: Hey, thanks for having me, Matt. 00:00:03.980 --> 00:00:05.190 Matt: Not really welcome you to that. 00:00:05.190 --> 00:00:06.130 I mean, you are here. 00:00:06.130 --> 00:00:11.309 You are the essence of the WP Minute, the man behind all the freelancer articles 00:00:11.309 --> 00:00:14.680 that we're going to discuss today in this nice, nice little year end recap. 00:00:15.090 --> 00:00:16.979 but it is always a pleasure to, to have you here. 00:00:17.020 --> 00:00:20.630 We're chatting about one of your losing teams, the Saints, before 00:00:20.630 --> 00:00:22.700 we hit record, about them Orioles. 00:00:22.700 --> 00:00:23.920 Eric: I think they're going to be good again. 00:00:24.660 --> 00:00:25.989 They're spending some money this year. 00:00:25.990 --> 00:00:27.590 I think that's going to be a good thing. 00:00:27.590 --> 00:00:31.149 Matt: We're going to talk about today is some of the great articles that, Eric 00:00:31.149 --> 00:00:36.159 has handpicked from his, stack of work that he's done for the WP minute over 00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:40.559 2024, some of his top five articles, wherever you're listening, watching this. 00:00:40.599 --> 00:00:41.499 if you have a favorite. 00:00:41.789 --> 00:00:44.219 article that Eric has written on the WP Minute. 00:00:44.219 --> 00:00:44.809 Go ahead and share it. 00:00:44.879 --> 00:00:45.259 Post it. 00:00:45.259 --> 00:00:46.059 Put it in the comments. 00:00:46.199 --> 00:00:47.649 Don't forget to like and subscribe. 00:00:48.099 --> 00:00:51.969 we have five articles that you're pulling out today and one of them 00:00:51.969 --> 00:00:55.269 is obviously going to be talking about automatic versus WP Engine. 00:00:55.269 --> 00:00:58.849 We just saw a judge rule on the injunction case. 00:00:58.849 --> 00:00:59.899 We'll save that to the end. 00:01:00.454 --> 00:01:02.094 Because, you know, we're not going to give it all the way up at the 00:01:02.094 --> 00:01:05.314 front, right, Eric, we don't want to just, you know, give them the great 00:01:05.344 --> 00:01:07.064 controversial news right at the start. 00:01:07.064 --> 00:01:10.614 We'll save that to the end of, of today's conversation. 00:01:11.024 --> 00:01:15.164 When I asked you, Eric, to go back and pick your favorite articles from 00:01:15.164 --> 00:01:17.544 the WP minute, what were you thinking? 00:01:17.554 --> 00:01:19.924 What, what made these top five your favorite? 00:01:21.144 --> 00:01:26.774 Eric: I think all of them address some pressing WordPress ecosystem and 00:01:26.774 --> 00:01:32.184 community, and I really think all of them have an impact on freelancers as well. 00:01:32.194 --> 00:01:32.464 So it's. 00:01:33.189 --> 00:01:37.639 It's stuff that maybe we don't talk about other than the, WP Engine stuff. 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:41.979 Things that we don't talk about necessarily every day, but things 00:01:41.979 --> 00:01:45.889 I think that we run into quite often when we're using WordPress 00:01:45.889 --> 00:01:47.929 and we're working on client sites. 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:51.969 Matt: You selected here's, here's the articles you selected. 00:01:51.979 --> 00:01:54.749 How does automatic versus WP Engine impact freelancers? 00:01:54.749 --> 00:01:55.809 We're going to save that one to the end. 00:01:56.029 --> 00:01:59.129 Why small WordPress UI changes are big deal. 00:01:59.459 --> 00:02:02.699 Go ahead and use WordPress your way, which is one of my favorite, articles 00:02:02.709 --> 00:02:06.849 from, 2024 using WordPress often means subscriptions, lots of them. 00:02:06.849 --> 00:02:08.389 We're actually going to start with that one since we're on 00:02:08.389 --> 00:02:12.479 the tail end of the holiday sale that all of us sort of jump into. 00:02:12.699 --> 00:02:15.650 And then data liberation needs to happen within WordPress too. 00:02:16.009 --> 00:02:19.499 Oof, that's a, that's an interesting one amidst all of this WP Engine 00:02:19.499 --> 00:02:23.969 stuff and especially that sort of like real vocal public call to action 00:02:23.969 --> 00:02:26.039 for, from Matt about data liberation. 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:26.799 It was sort of like. 00:02:27.804 --> 00:02:31.804 One of the milestone things that he had said over to 2024 where 00:02:31.804 --> 00:02:34.964 people like, okay, cool Sounds good. 00:02:34.964 --> 00:02:36.174 How do we get there? 00:02:36.184 --> 00:02:37.974 Who's gonna do it first? 00:02:37.974 --> 00:02:39.024 Which platforms? 00:02:40.394 --> 00:02:43.064 You know, and it's certainly taking a backseat to all this 00:02:43.234 --> 00:02:48.644 controversy I want to frame for the WordPress freelancers out there. 00:02:48.694 --> 00:02:53.254 I've been recording a session on what people are really struggling 00:02:53.255 --> 00:02:57.494 with, with WordPress and, and their freelance business or their agency. 00:02:57.714 --> 00:02:57.904 Right? 00:02:57.904 --> 00:02:59.474 You know, freelancers, boutique agencies. 00:03:00.104 --> 00:03:03.974 Of course, the WP Engine stuff is super difficult, right? 00:03:03.984 --> 00:03:04.724 To navigate. 00:03:05.024 --> 00:03:05.234 Yeah. 00:03:05.254 --> 00:03:06.034 Stressful. 00:03:06.724 --> 00:03:10.604 but I'm wondering if, if people have been seeing it, have an impact 00:03:10.605 --> 00:03:13.434 on their business or the future of their business, like our clients. 00:03:13.984 --> 00:03:19.194 Referring to it our clients pulling back because of this thing from your 00:03:19.194 --> 00:03:23.234 angle eric has I know we were going to talk about like your article 00:03:23.234 --> 00:03:26.384 specifically But I want to talk about the the future of freelancing and agency 00:03:26.385 --> 00:03:31.410 stuff for a second into 2025 Has this been a challenge for your business? 00:03:31.410 --> 00:03:33.980 Have your clients said, Oh, I heard about this WP engine thing. 00:03:33.980 --> 00:03:35.149 I don't, I don't like what I'm hearing. 00:03:35.209 --> 00:03:36.749 Has that come across your radar at all? 00:03:37.749 --> 00:03:40.949 Eric: It has come across a few different scenarios. 00:03:40.959 --> 00:03:44.379 in one scenario, I have a client on WP engine. 00:03:46.244 --> 00:03:50.894 He wasn't too thrilled about the situation when he couldn't update his plugins, due 00:03:50.894 --> 00:03:53.874 to WP engine being blocked from wordpress. 00:03:53.874 --> 00:03:54.274 org. 00:03:54.594 --> 00:03:57.024 so we definitely had some conversations around that. 00:03:57.524 --> 00:04:02.104 And there was another scenario where, you know, we're looking to move 00:04:02.104 --> 00:04:04.704 an enterprise site to a new host. 00:04:05.164 --> 00:04:10.354 And that became kind of a, a real concern there. 00:04:10.404 --> 00:04:11.384 even if the. 00:04:11.814 --> 00:04:14.274 We don't move it to WP engine per se. 00:04:15.264 --> 00:04:17.354 You still have to wonder when you're picking a host. 00:04:17.354 --> 00:04:17.694 Okay. 00:04:17.694 --> 00:04:18.924 Well, what's next? 00:04:18.944 --> 00:04:19.274 What's. 00:04:19.694 --> 00:04:23.704 You know, it's WP engine, just the first of many that are going 00:04:23.704 --> 00:04:25.244 to get this kind of a situation. 00:04:25.714 --> 00:04:29.594 So it's, it's definitely there in people's minds every day. 00:04:29.594 --> 00:04:32.184 I think even, even with advanced custom fields, 00:04:33.594 --> 00:04:38.719 Matt: what about the, did the discussion of Just simply using WordPress, come 00:04:38.719 --> 00:04:41.169 up with this enterprise client, or are they already built in WordPress? 00:04:41.169 --> 00:04:44.179 So there's no turning back now, but did they say something like, Oh, 00:04:44.179 --> 00:04:47.259 you know, maybe we should be going Drupal or something else, nothing 00:04:47.269 --> 00:04:47.759 Eric: like that. 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:51.989 Thankfully, but it was, you know, it, there just is that extra uncertainty 00:04:52.019 --> 00:04:56.989 when you're looking to move hosts and it's, it has to be a factor now. 00:04:56.989 --> 00:04:57.869 I think you have to. 00:04:58.849 --> 00:05:02.719 To really weigh heavily about where you're moving your site, just in case, 00:05:02.829 --> 00:05:04.409 you know, something should go wrong. 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:04.809 One 00:05:06.389 --> 00:05:09.679 Matt: of the challenges from running an agency again, ran one for a decade. 00:05:09.729 --> 00:05:13.469 and, still, I still see and hear the same challenges that people 00:05:13.469 --> 00:05:15.499 are having, hard to find clients. 00:05:16.159 --> 00:05:17.599 Lots more competition. 00:05:18.229 --> 00:05:21.059 We got this AI thing happening these days. 00:05:21.569 --> 00:05:25.949 I'm really leaning into advising people and I've been doing this 00:05:25.979 --> 00:05:27.469 even for the WP minute, right? 00:05:27.469 --> 00:05:30.999 Like finding sponsorships is like a business is difficult across the board. 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:34.029 I don't know many businesses that simply print money unless you're 00:05:34.029 --> 00:05:38.679 in energy, you know, and, and you're, you know, drilling for oil. 00:05:38.899 --> 00:05:41.979 Like I don't, just don't know of any business that just comes easy. 00:05:42.329 --> 00:05:48.079 And I'm really leaning into experience, human experience. 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:53.149 Like what are the things that really connect that you can't find in AI, right? 00:05:53.159 --> 00:05:57.229 You and I have had these discussions with WP minute writing content. 00:05:57.399 --> 00:05:59.189 Hey, tutorial content is great. 00:05:59.709 --> 00:06:05.119 But tutorial content that is drawn from a real experience, like a real 00:06:05.119 --> 00:06:09.149 experience that you had dealing with a client, implementing a solution, and then 00:06:09.159 --> 00:06:12.459 training somebody and teaching somebody how to do that, that's the future of 00:06:12.459 --> 00:06:17.719 content for me anyway, at least for the next couple of years, human experience, 00:06:17.729 --> 00:06:19.979 connecting with people that is. 00:06:20.719 --> 00:06:24.229 Customer service, I guess the essence of customer service is what I'm 00:06:24.239 --> 00:06:27.979 thinking people should be leaning into if they're starting an agency or 00:06:27.979 --> 00:06:30.639 freelance business headed into 2025. 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:34.619 What are your thoughts on finding customers trying to find a 00:06:34.619 --> 00:06:38.739 leg up on the competition and everything happening in the space? 00:06:40.009 --> 00:06:41.569 Eric: Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head when you're 00:06:41.569 --> 00:06:44.964 talking about experience because That's how we learn things. 00:06:44.964 --> 00:06:49.544 I mean, you can type any question you want in chat GPT, but is 00:06:49.544 --> 00:06:50.764 the answer going to be correct? 00:06:50.764 --> 00:06:53.214 Is it going to apply to your use case? 00:06:53.664 --> 00:06:56.734 Those types of things are, you know, novels to humans. 00:06:56.734 --> 00:06:57.344 I mean, that's. 00:06:57.959 --> 00:06:58.829 What we do, right? 00:06:58.829 --> 00:07:05.159 So I think if you can show that you are responsive and you take care of 00:07:05.159 --> 00:07:09.899 your customers and that you have, you know, that experience and know how, 00:07:10.099 --> 00:07:11.789 I think that's going to bode well. 00:07:12.569 --> 00:07:15.619 And I also think sometimes in the freelance game, we tend to, 00:07:15.679 --> 00:07:19.949 you know, chase clients that maybe aren't the best fit for us. 00:07:20.379 --> 00:07:25.424 we talk about volume more than quality and In that case, you know, I'd rather 00:07:25.434 --> 00:07:30.854 have five, like really good clients that pay well and that, you know, communicate 00:07:30.854 --> 00:07:37.074 well, then have 25 clients that are substandard in paying and a pain to deal 00:07:37.074 --> 00:07:42.594 with, you know, I, I think everybody's got to set up their business to focus on 00:07:42.994 --> 00:07:46.254 where they want to be and how they want to work and who they want to work with. 00:07:46.684 --> 00:07:52.264 You know, don't chase things just because they're there, focus on, 00:07:52.384 --> 00:07:59.224 you know, Achievable goals and show people what you can do and why it's a 00:07:59.234 --> 00:08:01.384 benefit to them to have you on board 00:08:03.384 --> 00:08:04.844 Matt: your outlook for 2025. 00:08:04.854 --> 00:08:07.094 Are you shifting things up? 00:08:07.094 --> 00:08:09.924 Do you have any sort of like goals or objectives? 00:08:09.924 --> 00:08:14.744 Like, are you trying to find the quality client headed into 2025 at 00:08:14.744 --> 00:08:16.814 least for your freelance development? 00:08:17.309 --> 00:08:17.549 Work. 00:08:17.549 --> 00:08:18.959 I know you're multifaceted. 00:08:18.979 --> 00:08:24.019 You're a writer, an author, a best selling author and, a WordPress developer. 00:08:24.019 --> 00:08:26.419 But do you have any goals on like finding the right customers? 00:08:26.419 --> 00:08:28.099 Do you need to go find new customers? 00:08:28.099 --> 00:08:29.719 What's it look like for Eric in 2025? 00:08:30.849 --> 00:08:33.809 Eric: I try to be careful about how many new customers I bring in a year. 00:08:33.829 --> 00:08:38.329 I have a lot who have been with me for over a decade and I try to keep 00:08:38.329 --> 00:08:39.919 those relationships going strong. 00:08:40.469 --> 00:08:45.719 I think one of my goals this year is actually going to be to focus on being a 00:08:45.719 --> 00:08:49.439 little more proactive with those clients that I already have, talking to them 00:08:49.439 --> 00:08:54.639 about things like, you know, upgrading PHP, making sure your site's compatible. 00:08:54.929 --> 00:08:57.329 maybe it's been a while since there's been a redesign, something 00:08:57.339 --> 00:08:59.479 like that, that, brings in. 00:09:00.174 --> 00:09:04.654 Revenue, but doesn't require me to go out and, and hunt new clients 00:09:04.654 --> 00:09:07.734 and, you know, spend a ton on marketing or things like that. 00:09:07.734 --> 00:09:11.804 I, I think sometimes we also forget, you know, the resources we already 00:09:11.804 --> 00:09:15.524 have available to us and those client relationships we have can be 00:09:15.524 --> 00:09:19.824 beneficial for, you know, not just till the site launches, you know, they 00:09:19.824 --> 00:09:23.734 can be beneficial for years to come if, if you have a good relationship. 00:09:24.329 --> 00:09:25.249 Matt: Yeah, yeah, 100%. 00:09:25.249 --> 00:09:28.739 And I think that, you know, that's where you're, you're leaning into 00:09:29.569 --> 00:09:30.669 again, that human interaction. 00:09:30.669 --> 00:09:35.839 There's so many, you know, customers that can, it's easy as 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:39.289 you're, it's easy to forget your customer and to engage with them. 00:09:39.289 --> 00:09:42.169 I know it sounds silly when you say it out loud, like, well, how would I, 00:09:42.369 --> 00:09:45.709 I'm there, I'm hosting their website, I'm, I'm updating their plugins. 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:47.839 That's all, you know, Great. 00:09:47.839 --> 00:09:49.359 And that's all like on the technical side. 00:09:49.359 --> 00:09:52.349 But I'll tell you that the client doesn't see that, right? 00:09:52.349 --> 00:09:52.789 They don't know. 00:09:52.789 --> 00:09:54.829 They're not looking at the updates, right? 00:09:54.829 --> 00:09:56.209 And like, maybe you're sending them a report. 00:09:56.259 --> 00:09:57.199 Okay, fine. 00:09:57.209 --> 00:10:00.319 They're looking at a bunch of data, you know, or graphs 00:10:00.319 --> 00:10:01.619 or logs that you send them. 00:10:01.619 --> 00:10:02.329 It's like, Oh yeah, pretty. 00:10:02.329 --> 00:10:05.869 You say that's totally different than opening up a conversation. 00:10:05.869 --> 00:10:07.479 Like, how's your business going? 00:10:07.779 --> 00:10:09.849 What else do you need on the WordPress site? 00:10:09.949 --> 00:10:12.369 what else do you need in, in social or content? 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:15.759 Anything I can do to help, you know, establish this. 00:10:16.904 --> 00:10:21.004 and that just enhances the relationship, which is crazy to even have to say that in 00:10:21.034 --> 00:10:24.094 headed into 2025, but it's a real thing. 00:10:24.234 --> 00:10:28.484 it's a real thing that folks need to lean into, I think, for future success. 00:10:29.684 --> 00:10:29.974 Eric: Yeah. 00:10:29.984 --> 00:10:30.464 Think about it. 00:10:30.464 --> 00:10:32.944 Everybody's already got a website out there pretty much, right. 00:10:32.944 --> 00:10:35.694 Except for maybe a startup or, you know, something new out there. 00:10:36.144 --> 00:10:39.804 So how do you help people maximize what they have and how 00:10:39.804 --> 00:10:43.144 do you, you know, capitalize on that while also helping them? 00:10:44.454 --> 00:10:45.884 Matt: Let's dive into your first. 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:48.269 Article today. 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:53.259 for those of you watching, you can see, the quick title featured image. 00:10:53.844 --> 00:10:57.684 And before we hopped on the call, Eric, you'll love to know I whipped 00:10:57.684 --> 00:11:00.484 these five articles through ChatGPT and I said, pull a quote from it. 00:11:01.974 --> 00:11:05.104 Something that I could quickly use as a visual, to have on the video, 00:11:05.334 --> 00:11:06.924 side of today's conversation. 00:11:06.924 --> 00:11:11.464 So the first article is using WordPress often means subscriptions, a lot of them. 00:11:11.524 --> 00:11:12.244 Here's a quote from Eric. 00:11:12.244 --> 00:11:16.514 Theoretically speaking, you could have a dozen subscriptions from a dozen vendors. 00:11:16.954 --> 00:11:19.894 Each has a different pricing model, which is so true. 00:11:20.299 --> 00:11:21.169 In the WordPress world. 00:11:21.169 --> 00:11:24.429 We're coming off the tail end of, you know, all of the Thanksgiving, 00:11:24.429 --> 00:11:27.629 Black Friday holiday sales that, you know, sort of just rush 00:11:27.629 --> 00:11:29.149 into the market 50 percent off. 00:11:29.149 --> 00:11:32.209 I know we were doing 50 percent off at Gravity Forms, tons of people, 00:11:32.459 --> 00:11:36.499 purchasing Gravity Forms, either for the first time or for their clients. 00:11:36.769 --> 00:11:40.389 It's an amazing time to be a WordPress plugin company or theme company. 00:11:40.849 --> 00:11:43.089 first off, did you pick up any new deals? 00:11:43.269 --> 00:11:44.389 This, these last few weeks, 00:11:44.829 --> 00:11:46.079 Eric: I was so proud of myself. 00:11:46.099 --> 00:11:47.429 I did not buy anything new. 00:11:49.009 --> 00:11:52.959 I did take advantage of a, of a renewal on a couple of things 00:11:52.959 --> 00:11:54.749 that had a discount with them. 00:11:55.239 --> 00:11:56.209 So I was happy about that. 00:11:56.209 --> 00:12:01.559 But usually my, my problem is I start seeing, Oh, I can use this. 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:02.319 I could really use that. 00:12:02.319 --> 00:12:03.949 And then the plugins just kind of sit there. 00:12:04.459 --> 00:12:07.979 So I was kind of proud that I did not do it this year, but I 00:12:07.979 --> 00:12:10.019 do have a ton of subscriptions. 00:12:10.669 --> 00:12:11.879 Matt: I did pull out a poll. 00:12:11.889 --> 00:12:14.489 I should have, I should have, looked at this first, but I did put out 00:12:14.489 --> 00:12:19.879 a poll during the holiday sale and surprisingly a lot of people voted. 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:22.699 I just asked, like, are you buying it for the first time, buying a 00:12:22.699 --> 00:12:24.029 plug in or theme for the first time? 00:12:24.049 --> 00:12:26.239 Are you doing it because, and are you going to use it right away? 00:12:26.239 --> 00:12:26.659 That's what it was. 00:12:26.659 --> 00:12:27.989 I think he's going to use it right away. 00:12:28.029 --> 00:12:29.519 Are you holding onto it for future? 00:12:29.520 --> 00:12:32.669 And there was a surprising amount of people who responded that they were just 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:35.189 buying things to, to maybe eventually. 00:12:35.789 --> 00:12:36.359 Use them. 00:12:36.369 --> 00:12:40.659 It's not something I've ever done, but I, I can see why, like, I can see why 00:12:40.659 --> 00:12:44.419 people have an attraction to a particular product and I might use that someday. 00:12:44.419 --> 00:12:47.289 I might as well scoop it up for 50 percent off now or whatever the deal is. 00:12:47.619 --> 00:12:48.859 that makes total sense. 00:12:49.589 --> 00:12:50.999 Why did this article make your top five? 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:57.769 Eric: I think it's an ongoing kind of struggle for freelancers too, because 00:12:58.479 --> 00:13:03.259 when you look at it, part of the deal is, you know, dealing with clients, they're 00:13:03.299 --> 00:13:05.759 not always up for more subscriptions. 00:13:06.379 --> 00:13:08.319 They, and I think this is a hard. 00:13:08.739 --> 00:13:12.097 Thing for us as freelancers, we have to kind of describe why 00:13:12.097 --> 00:13:14.271 those subscriptions are necessary. 00:13:14.271 --> 00:13:19.056 Like, think of a client that has a WooCommerce store. 00:13:19.436 --> 00:13:19.566 Okay. 00:13:19.886 --> 00:13:20.186 Okay. 00:13:20.186 --> 00:13:23.746 They, they may not understand why, a certain shipping method isn't 00:13:23.766 --> 00:13:28.316 available right away, in a default install or why, you know, they 00:13:28.316 --> 00:13:30.796 can't have a customized product. 00:13:31.346 --> 00:13:32.306 in a certain way. 00:13:33.206 --> 00:13:35.686 You know, it takes those extra subscriptions to get it done. 00:13:35.686 --> 00:13:40.036 And I think that kind of becomes a problem in WordPress as you scale. 00:13:40.336 --> 00:13:42.156 for a small site, it's not that big of a deal. 00:13:42.156 --> 00:13:43.686 You can put gravity forms on there. 00:13:43.716 --> 00:13:47.296 Great product, put it on, get your forms all set up. 00:13:47.846 --> 00:13:51.546 But what happens as you scale and you need more and more functionality and 00:13:51.546 --> 00:13:55.046 all of a sudden you're managing, you know, 20 subscriptions and they're 00:13:55.046 --> 00:13:56.646 all renewing at different times. 00:13:56.646 --> 00:14:01.211 And They all have different rates and sometimes they go up in price and 00:14:01.221 --> 00:14:03.011 you hadn't budgeted ahead for that. 00:14:03.431 --> 00:14:07.021 So I think it, it's something that we need to think about 00:14:07.061 --> 00:14:09.641 in how we work with clients. 00:14:10.161 --> 00:14:13.441 You know, first of all, do we really need that subscription? 00:14:13.721 --> 00:14:15.791 Do we really need what that product is giving us? 00:14:16.151 --> 00:14:18.131 And second of all, I think it also. 00:14:19.156 --> 00:14:22.006 It's something that, you know, we've had this debate forever 00:14:22.006 --> 00:14:23.886 about a WordPress app store. 00:14:24.876 --> 00:14:28.396 Not sure that's ever going to happen, but at least not on wordpress. 00:14:28.396 --> 00:14:28.746 org. 00:14:28.946 --> 00:14:29.336 but, 00:14:29.506 --> 00:14:32.266 Matt: Oh, you say that Eric, but you have no idea. 00:14:33.116 --> 00:14:34.626 I have no idea that that is 00:14:34.626 --> 00:14:35.046 Eric: for sure. 00:14:35.056 --> 00:14:40.126 But especially after this year, I don't know anything anymore, but, but 00:14:40.126 --> 00:14:44.216 it is something that freelancers have to deal with on almost a daily basis. 00:14:44.236 --> 00:14:45.316 Every site we build. 00:14:45.871 --> 00:14:49.551 There's, you know, a handful of subscriptions, it seems like, 00:14:49.731 --> 00:14:53.011 and that's great to, you know, we want to support the developers. 00:14:53.011 --> 00:14:55.661 We want to make sure that they are getting paid for their hard work, 00:14:56.271 --> 00:15:00.251 but it does become, you know, a management nightmare after a while. 00:15:00.251 --> 00:15:02.831 So I think that's, that's something that probably not 00:15:02.831 --> 00:15:03.931 going to go away anytime soon. 00:15:05.041 --> 00:15:05.381 Matt: Yeah. 00:15:05.431 --> 00:15:08.731 I'll tell you, it's, it's, it's just an, it's wild space this morning. 00:15:08.731 --> 00:15:10.621 I stumbled upon a. 00:15:12.481 --> 00:15:15.031 Plugin, it's just randomly like I went, I actually went to go check 00:15:15.031 --> 00:15:17.731 on, advanced custom fields to see if it was back in the repo. 00:15:17.731 --> 00:15:20.331 And I just quickly pulled up the repo and I just saw some 00:15:20.331 --> 00:15:21.681 other plugin that caught my eye. 00:15:21.691 --> 00:15:23.041 I can't remember the name of it right now. 00:15:23.411 --> 00:15:26.141 It was like, you know, Gutenberg block collection. 00:15:26.601 --> 00:15:26.931 I was like, oh, this. 00:15:27.331 --> 00:15:28.321 Name looks cool. 00:15:28.511 --> 00:15:29.471 Icon looks cool. 00:15:29.471 --> 00:15:30.061 I clicked on it. 00:15:30.061 --> 00:15:30.891 Never seen it before. 00:15:30.891 --> 00:15:34.641 7, 000 active installs and I clicked on the, they have, of course, they, 00:15:34.641 --> 00:15:37.561 you know, list everything on the repo page and there's a pro subscription. 00:15:37.561 --> 00:15:38.261 So I'd learn more. 00:15:38.261 --> 00:15:38.841 I click it. 00:15:38.851 --> 00:15:41.781 I just want to see, you know, how much they charge and it's like the typical 00:15:41.781 --> 00:15:48.561 47 97 1 47 pricing and I'm just looking at it going, wow, how did we, you know, 00:15:49.721 --> 00:15:51.941 how did WordPress land on this pricing? 00:15:51.941 --> 00:15:52.001 Yeah. 00:15:52.161 --> 00:15:55.271 Like across the board, 47. 00:15:55.271 --> 00:15:55.478 97, 1. 00:15:55.478 --> 00:15:59.021 47, it just seems to be like the recurring trend for any kind of, 00:15:59.401 --> 00:16:03.351 you know, theme or plugin shop that has launched within the last decade. 00:16:03.691 --> 00:16:06.741 and that was interesting to see, but then there's like the flip side of it where 00:16:07.571 --> 00:16:12.446 there are some providers out there where, you know, pricing is different when When 00:16:12.446 --> 00:16:17.486 it goes, after the first year, so it's like, yeah, get a deal now next year. 00:16:17.516 --> 00:16:19.186 It's like three times the price. 00:16:19.506 --> 00:16:23.356 and that is also, something that can happen that can surprise the consumer. 00:16:23.356 --> 00:16:27.166 So it's not even just like the amount of vendors somebody has to deal with. 00:16:27.486 --> 00:16:30.076 But like you said, you know, it's just this variety of pricing. 00:16:30.286 --> 00:16:34.366 and some folks, some places out there are, you know, the price is not what it seems. 00:16:34.546 --> 00:16:36.826 you know, when you first buy it, which is, which is not 00:16:36.826 --> 00:16:38.016 fun for the, for the consumer. 00:16:39.436 --> 00:16:42.356 So I can understand why consumers like average users can like 00:16:42.356 --> 00:16:43.426 freak out about this stuff. 00:16:44.416 --> 00:16:47.846 Eric: Yeah, it gets to the point where, you know, you almost have 00:16:47.846 --> 00:16:49.816 to just look on a daily basis. 00:16:50.536 --> 00:16:53.756 Who's doing what with, with, with the things you subscribe to because 00:16:53.756 --> 00:16:55.046 yeah, they can change quite a bit. 00:16:55.046 --> 00:16:57.736 I had a plug and do that to me earlier this year. 00:16:57.766 --> 00:17:02.976 it turned out that they like tripled the price after the introductory year. 00:17:03.136 --> 00:17:03.736 And. 00:17:04.171 --> 00:17:07.521 I didn't see any mention of it in any of their official emails. 00:17:07.811 --> 00:17:13.001 It actually came to me in a PayPal email that was generated after my purchase. 00:17:13.461 --> 00:17:15.831 there's like a little note inside that PayPal email. 00:17:15.831 --> 00:17:19.011 It says after the first year you will be charged X amount. 00:17:19.846 --> 00:17:21.026 And I was like, really? 00:17:21.476 --> 00:17:25.486 There was no documentation, you know, in the official things sent from the 00:17:25.496 --> 00:17:29.716 developer and I was like, that's probably not going to win over a lot of friends. 00:17:30.556 --> 00:17:31.896 Matt: It doesn't help the consumer, but I'm sure it 00:17:31.896 --> 00:17:34.076 satisfies the legal side of things. 00:17:35.226 --> 00:17:36.836 let's move on to the next article. 00:17:36.846 --> 00:17:40.056 Data liberation needs to happen within WordPress too. 00:17:40.346 --> 00:17:41.906 quote, the process can be messy. 00:17:41.906 --> 00:17:45.256 We may need to grab data from different database tables and columns, that 00:17:45.286 --> 00:17:47.026 may also encompass multiple plugins. 00:17:47.036 --> 00:17:48.146 That is definitely. 00:17:48.436 --> 00:17:53.456 A quote pulled from AI, in the first two moments of hitting record. 00:17:53.456 --> 00:17:55.546 This is why you don't trust AI to anything. 00:17:55.546 --> 00:17:57.676 Data liberation is certainly not going to be easy. 00:17:57.946 --> 00:18:02.006 pivotal moment, like we were mentioning before, we heard Mullenweg talk about it. 00:18:02.026 --> 00:18:04.486 We thought data liberation was going to be, I mean, I 00:18:04.496 --> 00:18:05.916 thought like, okay, makes sense. 00:18:06.441 --> 00:18:08.271 Who's going to rally the troops to do this? 00:18:08.401 --> 00:18:11.781 I haven't seen many troops rallying to do this. 00:18:12.251 --> 00:18:15.751 what has happened within WordPress 2 mean to you? 00:18:17.341 --> 00:18:21.561 Eric: So what I'm talking about is kind of what this AI quote is actually. 00:18:21.571 --> 00:18:27.171 We're talking about, you know, data liberation originally came about 00:18:27.241 --> 00:18:31.761 when we're talking about like moving from Wix or Squarespace or Shopify 00:18:31.821 --> 00:18:37.231 to WordPress, having tools that can allow us to easily grab that content. 00:18:37.701 --> 00:18:41.871 Put it into our WordPress install, but there is also an issue with 00:18:43.711 --> 00:18:45.541 working within WordPress as well. 00:18:45.861 --> 00:18:48.901 say you have an e commerce site or a membership site, you may want 00:18:48.901 --> 00:18:52.561 to pull information about a user's purchases from root commerce. 00:18:53.126 --> 00:18:58.556 But then you may also want that same report to have some of their member 00:18:58.556 --> 00:19:02.246 press data or whatever membership software they're using, or maybe 00:19:02.246 --> 00:19:04.016 they're using an LMS in there too. 00:19:04.446 --> 00:19:09.106 So how do you grab data from all these plugins and combine it into one report? 00:19:09.516 --> 00:19:12.086 That's pretty heavy stuff to do right now. 00:19:12.566 --> 00:19:17.446 There's no plugin that I've seen that can reliably do that. 00:19:17.986 --> 00:19:22.146 Now, I will tell you, I did cheat with AI on a project this year for a 00:19:22.146 --> 00:19:23.706 client that needed something like this. 00:19:24.156 --> 00:19:30.246 I had it write me a custom MySQL query to take from these different tables and 00:19:30.246 --> 00:19:35.716 to put everything into a CSV file that I could export and give to the client. 00:19:36.286 --> 00:19:40.236 It actually worked, but it was even with AI, it was a few hours 00:19:40.236 --> 00:19:43.916 and, you know, a lot of back and forth trying to perfect it. 00:19:43.916 --> 00:19:49.546 So I think when you're looking at, you know, getting the data from your 00:19:49.546 --> 00:19:51.696 WordPress website, it's not easy. 00:19:51.746 --> 00:19:55.276 you know, unless you're going with the standard WooCommerce reports that 00:19:55.906 --> 00:20:01.086 are included in a default install, you really going to have to, to work hard 00:20:01.086 --> 00:20:02.726 to try and get everything you want. 00:20:02.726 --> 00:20:03.786 And that's a shame because. 00:20:04.171 --> 00:20:06.081 Our sites hold so much valuable data. 00:20:06.341 --> 00:20:10.011 And if we have access to it, that makes that allows us to make better decisions. 00:20:10.591 --> 00:20:15.751 But, you know, the first part is getting it and putting it all together, which 00:20:15.761 --> 00:20:19.041 is kind of an impossibility right now, but the way things are set up, 00:20:20.181 --> 00:20:24.761 Matt: there's a, yeah, there's, there's so much things I love and hate about 00:20:24.761 --> 00:20:28.511 WordPress and where we're at, you know, in the, in the history of, of 00:20:28.521 --> 00:20:32.221 WordPress, particularly now, but, when I first saw this, I was like, you 00:20:32.221 --> 00:20:33.611 know, what'd be, what would be great. 00:20:34.581 --> 00:20:38.331 And I've talked about this before, and this is well before, you know, 00:20:38.331 --> 00:20:39.381 we've been challenged with this thing. 00:20:40.811 --> 00:20:45.981 WP engine stuff, but I've often challenged the idea of five for the 00:20:45.981 --> 00:20:50.631 future and giving back to WordPress and, you know, doing, embarking 00:20:50.641 --> 00:20:52.491 on projects like data liberation. 00:20:52.941 --> 00:20:57.841 I've often challenged the sentiment of it by challenging 00:20:57.881 --> 00:21:00.301 other brands to actually do it. 00:21:00.561 --> 00:21:03.911 You could boil it down to just like calling Matt's bluff. 00:21:03.961 --> 00:21:07.821 I mean, it's pretty harsh statement, but I would say it's calling Matt's bluff. 00:21:07.821 --> 00:21:09.941 And I've said this about, five for the future. 00:21:09.971 --> 00:21:11.571 Hey, look, if you want. 00:21:11.961 --> 00:21:15.371 if, if bigger brands, let's say like GoDaddy is what I reference 00:21:15.371 --> 00:21:18.371 in one of my, more formidable articles, keys of the kingdom. 00:21:18.791 --> 00:21:22.731 It's like, look, GoDaddy could just say, here's 20 million. 00:21:22.911 --> 00:21:28.181 Here's Juan Soto money every single year for developers that just 00:21:28.181 --> 00:21:29.701 come in and commit to WordPress. 00:21:29.981 --> 00:21:35.806 What would Matt do if a hundred GoDaddy Showed up to commit to, to WordPress. 00:21:36.306 --> 00:21:38.856 I think, you know, on the surface, I think he would smile 00:21:38.856 --> 00:21:39.716 and be like, Oh, that's great. 00:21:39.846 --> 00:21:44.366 But I also think that he would be challenged with, how the direction 00:21:44.366 --> 00:21:48.446 of WordPress is managed because you'd have, you know, an army, a troop of 00:21:48.446 --> 00:21:50.576 people coming in to commit to WordPress. 00:21:50.616 --> 00:21:53.696 Well, well, I think it's going to be some deeper discussions, going 00:21:53.696 --> 00:21:55.726 on, you know, I think anyway. 00:21:56.136 --> 00:21:57.406 and the same thing for data liberation. 00:21:57.826 --> 00:22:00.976 It's like, Hey, I think, you know, when he put it out there, he would say 00:22:01.766 --> 00:22:05.156 we would need more people to come to WordPress, which I'm not arguing against. 00:22:05.166 --> 00:22:05.386 Sure. 00:22:05.386 --> 00:22:06.176 Yeah, absolutely. 00:22:06.376 --> 00:22:09.476 But I would also look at that as an opportunity for let's say a Wix 00:22:09.476 --> 00:22:12.876 or a Squarespace or a Webflow to come in and go, Oh, you know what? 00:22:13.496 --> 00:22:15.156 We're going to make our data liberation tool. 00:22:15.336 --> 00:22:17.516 And we're going to, we're going to be, we're actually going to commit 00:22:17.516 --> 00:22:22.796 this to this, this project, which at the end, like both camps, at the end 00:22:22.796 --> 00:22:24.711 of the, hopefully the consumer wins. 00:22:24.981 --> 00:22:25.281 Right? 00:22:25.281 --> 00:22:28.121 When you have these things, so a hundred GoDaddys come in to call the bluff. 00:22:28.181 --> 00:22:28.941 Guess who wins? 00:22:29.051 --> 00:22:29.921 The end user. 00:22:30.161 --> 00:22:32.651 Which is, you know, that's the goal, I think, for open source. 00:22:32.861 --> 00:22:36.211 particularly challenged again at the end of this year, but I, I, I see 00:22:36.211 --> 00:22:40.831 these moments and I'm like, damn, I wish there would be more adoption 00:22:40.831 --> 00:22:42.631 from the, from, from the outside. 00:22:42.811 --> 00:22:46.171 you know, when, when Matt sort of plants his flag on these ideas and 00:22:46.171 --> 00:22:51.811 these concepts, which largely look to maybe influence and benefit himself in 00:22:51.811 --> 00:22:56.471 WordPress, I also look at the outside, go, Hey guys, Wix, where you got to, 00:22:56.551 --> 00:23:01.221 you got an opportunity here to jump in and make something and guess who wins? 00:23:01.221 --> 00:23:03.771 We do, which is ultimately what you want. 00:23:04.071 --> 00:23:05.751 A bunch of freelancers who say, Oh great. 00:23:05.761 --> 00:23:10.251 Wix made a tool to migrate from WordPress to Wix and it's open 00:23:10.251 --> 00:23:11.211 source and it's right here. 00:23:11.771 --> 00:23:15.231 So if I ever have a customer that's like, ah, this WordPress thing isn't for me. 00:23:15.731 --> 00:23:16.281 Boom. 00:23:16.511 --> 00:23:18.891 I can go from WordPress to Wix or Wix to WordPress. 00:23:19.431 --> 00:23:23.231 would be amazing, amazing flow of, of data, which I guess as I 00:23:23.241 --> 00:23:25.961 speak about it out loud is the idea is the goal for this stuff. 00:23:26.091 --> 00:23:27.191 We just need that adoption. 00:23:27.241 --> 00:23:29.011 And I, you know, I haven't seen it. 00:23:29.051 --> 00:23:33.391 I hope for it in 2025, but it's a challenge for sure to get people on board. 00:23:34.546 --> 00:23:34.846 Eric: Yeah. 00:23:34.846 --> 00:23:37.956 I don't know how much attention it's getting right now with 00:23:37.956 --> 00:23:39.046 all the other things going on. 00:23:39.126 --> 00:23:39.486 So 00:23:39.876 --> 00:23:42.626 Matt: state of the word coming up, maybe it'll, it'll be the only topic left. 00:23:44.011 --> 00:23:47.721 Eric: I'm sure there will be other things talked about that on that particular day. 00:23:48.291 --> 00:23:51.771 Matt: Speaking of, go ahead and use WordPress your way. 00:23:51.771 --> 00:23:54.761 Like I said before, one of my favorite articles, experimentation 00:23:54.761 --> 00:23:56.181 is one of the best ways to learn. 00:23:56.431 --> 00:24:00.151 Maybe WordPress is more like life than we thought. 00:24:00.401 --> 00:24:04.561 I'll try not to drown this conversation in AI, discussion, which I've been 00:24:04.561 --> 00:24:09.721 talking about a lot lately, but I have found a new appreciation for WordPress. 00:24:10.711 --> 00:24:17.081 as a monolithic app that it has 20 years of history, 20 years of thousands, tens of 00:24:17.081 --> 00:24:19.171 thousands of people committing code to it. 00:24:19.521 --> 00:24:24.601 I can pull it off the shelf and just run with it, which six months ago in my head 00:24:24.601 --> 00:24:26.831 was like, boy, this is old and lethargic. 00:24:27.131 --> 00:24:30.031 And then I started building things with AI and I was like, 00:24:30.031 --> 00:24:31.381 Oh my God, this is amazing. 00:24:31.621 --> 00:24:35.341 like look how fast I can build like these little ad hoc react JS apps. 00:24:35.681 --> 00:24:37.361 and, or the react based apps. 00:24:37.661 --> 00:24:43.451 And, What it really had me looking at WordPress, the context of is 00:24:44.761 --> 00:24:47.471 I can do this stuff in AI, just like you're doing the SQL stuff. 00:24:47.651 --> 00:24:48.911 It took you a few hours. 00:24:49.131 --> 00:24:51.081 You're probably, you know, pretty impressed with it. 00:24:51.521 --> 00:24:53.491 but there's no, that's it. 00:24:53.511 --> 00:24:55.571 It's just, it's gone in the moment, right? 00:24:55.671 --> 00:24:57.816 Like I build a little, a little react app. 00:24:58.286 --> 00:25:00.036 It's gone because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. 00:25:00.656 --> 00:25:01.296 I built it. 00:25:01.626 --> 00:25:02.586 It exists. 00:25:02.786 --> 00:25:04.766 But there's nobody critically thinking about it. 00:25:04.766 --> 00:25:06.846 No one's patching this app that I made. 00:25:07.096 --> 00:25:07.636 It's gone. 00:25:07.886 --> 00:25:10.616 It's awesome in the moment, but it's gone. 00:25:10.716 --> 00:25:15.586 Whereas WordPress, you look at and go, there's community, there's a core 00:25:15.586 --> 00:25:21.816 team, there's a vision, kinda, and somebody is caring for this thing. 00:25:21.916 --> 00:25:25.466 So it might be, air quotes, slow and lethargic in a 20 year old technology. 00:25:26.116 --> 00:25:30.176 But it's, but people are caring for it and improving it every day, and 00:25:30.176 --> 00:25:33.936 that's what I've, I've found through my journey of learning how to, to code 00:25:33.936 --> 00:25:37.516 with AI, allows me to look at WordPress and say, I appreciate, appreciate it, 00:25:37.546 --> 00:25:41.116 and I can do all these different things with WordPress, which again, just 00:25:41.116 --> 00:25:44.906 reinforces my, you know, my, my love for WordPress, your thoughts on the article. 00:25:46.556 --> 00:25:49.266 Eric: So I think we often get into these debates and you 00:25:49.266 --> 00:25:50.546 see it all over social media. 00:25:51.331 --> 00:25:54.811 That, you know, there's, there's one particular way you have to do something. 00:25:54.821 --> 00:25:58.501 The only one page builder you should use or, you know, forms 00:25:58.531 --> 00:26:00.411 plugin or whatever it is. 00:26:00.891 --> 00:26:04.471 And people get stuck in these debates and, you know, my, my thought on that 00:26:04.471 --> 00:26:09.471 is WordPress is like the ultimate blank canvas for whatever you want to build. 00:26:10.241 --> 00:26:12.941 Is it always the right choice for everything you want to build? 00:26:13.021 --> 00:26:13.891 That's debatable. 00:26:14.421 --> 00:26:18.241 But there are so many different ways to build the same thing with 00:26:18.241 --> 00:26:19.681 WordPress, which is good and bad. 00:26:20.401 --> 00:26:23.761 But I think it also lends to learning and experience. 00:26:24.291 --> 00:26:29.911 you know, I can build a WooCommerce site a certain way, and maybe it 00:26:30.641 --> 00:26:32.101 breaks somewhere down the line. 00:26:32.101 --> 00:26:34.661 And I've learned that, oh no, I probably shouldn't have done that. 00:26:35.461 --> 00:26:37.191 Next time I'll know to do this. 00:26:37.841 --> 00:26:41.471 And I think that's, that's kind of how my journey with WordPress has been, you know, 00:26:41.471 --> 00:26:48.881 I've, I'm a great repository of things I've done wrong and what not to do again. 00:26:49.431 --> 00:26:53.481 So I, I've, I've kind of, you know, bank these things in my memory and I think, 00:26:53.501 --> 00:26:56.791 okay, I know how to build this now. 00:26:56.791 --> 00:26:59.121 I know, I know exactly what I, what I need to do. 00:26:59.461 --> 00:27:01.661 And when new things come out, I'm going to try it. 00:27:01.711 --> 00:27:04.291 I'm probably going to break it and, but I'll learn from it. 00:27:04.766 --> 00:27:08.476 So I think sometimes we have a little bit of gatekeeping in the community about 00:27:08.736 --> 00:27:13.206 certain ways to do things and certain tools you have to use or you can't use. 00:27:14.046 --> 00:27:16.916 I think we should just let it up to the individual. 00:27:16.926 --> 00:27:18.046 That's what WordPress is for. 00:27:18.046 --> 00:27:21.986 It's not, it's not meant to be used in one specific way. 00:27:22.066 --> 00:27:24.936 even Matt Mullenwiggle, you know, agree with that. 00:27:24.936 --> 00:27:29.226 I imagine that, you know, you're building whatever you want, however you want. 00:27:29.686 --> 00:27:33.036 And as long as you reach your, your goal, that's all that really matters. 00:27:34.186 --> 00:27:34.426 Matt: Yeah. 00:27:34.426 --> 00:27:39.416 There, there's a whole world of, again, I don't want to drown this in AI stuff, 00:27:39.426 --> 00:27:41.486 but you know, I've been learning it. 00:27:41.656 --> 00:27:44.586 I've been learning how to code outside of, outside of WordPress. 00:27:44.996 --> 00:27:46.556 And, what I have found is this. 00:27:47.536 --> 00:27:53.526 Massive world of frameworks, libraries, and components, in just the React 00:27:53.526 --> 00:27:59.796 world, never mind, you know, Laravel, or Ruby on Rails, like, I have 00:27:59.796 --> 00:28:04.006 been insulated inside of WordPress for so long, because it's been my 00:28:04.006 --> 00:28:06.226 career, largely, and just thinking. 00:28:06.291 --> 00:28:11.681 HTML, CSS, PHP, JavaScript, MySQL database, you know, manage WordPress 00:28:11.701 --> 00:28:15.301 hosting, it, you know, it really hasn't expanded beyond that. 00:28:15.351 --> 00:28:19.001 And I finally, you know, looked on the other side of the fence and saw 00:28:19.011 --> 00:28:23.041 that a lot of that same discussions, but more importantly, that idea of 00:28:23.061 --> 00:28:26.761 gatekeeping is, is true everywhere, right? 00:28:26.761 --> 00:28:30.611 It's not just in, in WordPress, but certainly as I look to these other 00:28:30.631 --> 00:28:33.811 platforms and I'll try to distill this down into like one concise thought is 00:28:34.481 --> 00:28:40.366 what, what, What AI has been doing for me to build these little apps is like 00:28:40.366 --> 00:28:46.436 the same thing that page builders were allowing people to do 15 years ago 00:28:46.436 --> 00:28:49.986 when they first came onto the scene like visual composer, site origin, page 00:28:49.986 --> 00:28:53.116 lines, those types of things, where people looked at you and said, whoa, 00:28:53.116 --> 00:28:54.056 whoa, whoa, you're doing it wrong. 00:28:54.301 --> 00:28:56.821 Page Builder, get out of here with that stuff, right? 00:28:57.081 --> 00:28:58.491 You can't be in this room with us. 00:28:58.501 --> 00:29:00.861 You have to do it by, by hand. 00:29:00.871 --> 00:29:02.231 You must crack open Functions. 00:29:02.251 --> 00:29:06.381 php and, and put in your stuff there, and create a new theme, and a 00:29:06.381 --> 00:29:07.791 child theme, and do all this stuff. 00:29:07.791 --> 00:29:12.291 And there was gatekeeping there because people, Had learned how to do 00:29:12.291 --> 00:29:14.601 it for the previous five to 10 years. 00:29:14.911 --> 00:29:16.841 And they were telling people, no, no, no, this new thing. 00:29:16.851 --> 00:29:19.371 You can't have that, that not, that's not for us. 00:29:19.401 --> 00:29:22.421 And now I'm seeing the same thing happen when I start looking and trying to 00:29:22.421 --> 00:29:24.211 learn, how do I do this thing and react? 00:29:24.211 --> 00:29:27.821 And you just see people like, Oh, must be just, you know, another AI generated app. 00:29:27.821 --> 00:29:30.051 It's like, well, man, I'm trying to learn this stuff, which is what 00:29:30.051 --> 00:29:31.191 people were doing with page builders. 00:29:31.191 --> 00:29:32.581 They were just trying to like, I know, I think. 00:29:32.641 --> 00:29:35.251 The person who's doing it the right way, just trying to learn this stuff. 00:29:35.611 --> 00:29:37.901 you know, and I, and I think that that experience can 00:29:37.901 --> 00:29:39.681 happen across all technologies. 00:29:40.091 --> 00:29:43.001 you know, we just see it, you know, primarily in WordPress. 00:29:43.011 --> 00:29:44.161 Cause you know, that's where we live. 00:29:45.611 --> 00:29:45.861 Eric: Yeah. 00:29:45.911 --> 00:29:47.151 And that's okay. 00:29:47.201 --> 00:29:49.991 I mean, everybody's got to learn some way, somehow. 00:29:50.621 --> 00:29:55.131 And, you know, I, to make myself sound really old, I mean, I can 00:29:55.131 --> 00:29:59.171 remember when Microsoft front page came out, I'm like, hell no, man, 00:29:59.171 --> 00:30:00.931 I'm, I'm writing code by hand. 00:30:00.931 --> 00:30:04.641 I don't need you to put in my, my, my blink tag for me. 00:30:04.641 --> 00:30:05.941 Get out of here. 00:30:05.941 --> 00:30:06.951 Let me do that myself. 00:30:07.431 --> 00:30:11.361 And, you know, you adapt, you adapt over time, you learn and 00:30:11.611 --> 00:30:12.796 you're trying to find ways to. 00:30:12.796 --> 00:30:13.756 To be more efficient. 00:30:13.766 --> 00:30:15.866 Sometimes a page builder is going to do that for you. 00:30:15.876 --> 00:30:19.236 Sometimes it's not, you know, the great thing is we have options. 00:30:19.236 --> 00:30:21.186 We don't have to limit ourselves and that's. 00:30:21.336 --> 00:30:24.036 That's kind of what WordPress is all about in my, my opinion. 00:30:24.526 --> 00:30:25.586 Matt: Thanks to FrontPage. 00:30:25.586 --> 00:30:29.846 It helped me build, my, high school website back in the day, when our 00:30:29.846 --> 00:30:33.106 computer school or computer school, our computer class, I think it was 00:30:33.106 --> 00:30:34.566 just called computer class back then. 00:30:34.566 --> 00:30:37.336 I don't think there was a real label for it, but, that was one of our 00:30:37.346 --> 00:30:40.826 projects is to redesign the high school website and we did thanks to FrontPage. 00:30:41.256 --> 00:30:41.966 Next article. 00:30:42.376 --> 00:30:43.236 speaking of. 00:30:44.216 --> 00:30:47.916 Things that change why small WordPress UI changes are a big deal. 00:30:48.416 --> 00:30:50.146 The problem is a lack of communication. 00:30:50.156 --> 00:30:54.006 It's not intentional However change in the UI without educating users is likely 00:30:54.006 --> 00:30:59.036 to backfire Quote from Eric why small WordPress UI changes are a big deal, you 00:30:59.036 --> 00:31:03.871 know I can tell you one thing when they move the focus Featured image location, 00:31:04.081 --> 00:31:09.021 my muscle memory of like writing a blog post and scrolling down into the 00:31:09.021 --> 00:31:10.971 right to click on the featured image. 00:31:11.171 --> 00:31:12.451 I was like, what, what happened? 00:31:12.751 --> 00:31:13.271 Where is it? 00:31:13.551 --> 00:31:15.751 and even still like a few months later, I'm still like, Oh yeah, 00:31:15.751 --> 00:31:16.811 the featured image is up here now. 00:31:16.811 --> 00:31:17.741 I got to remember that. 00:31:18.051 --> 00:31:21.241 UI changes can have even small UI changes are a big deal. 00:31:21.511 --> 00:31:22.231 why this article? 00:31:23.231 --> 00:31:24.521 Eric: Well, it's funny enough. 00:31:24.551 --> 00:31:27.676 That's the exact problem that I ran into with, with this article. 00:31:27.816 --> 00:31:29.296 The featured image changing. 00:31:30.096 --> 00:31:32.236 I was training a client actually at the time. 00:31:32.236 --> 00:31:35.966 I had no idea that the featured image had shifted up and to 00:31:35.966 --> 00:31:37.766 the right of the block editor. 00:31:38.236 --> 00:31:41.296 So I'm trying to find out where the featured image is. 00:31:41.296 --> 00:31:44.376 And I'm going back to that same old spot that I've been doing for 10 years. 00:31:45.106 --> 00:31:48.506 And I look like a fool in front of my client because I don't 00:31:48.506 --> 00:31:49.476 know where the featured image is. 00:31:49.846 --> 00:31:50.106 Yeah. 00:31:50.106 --> 00:31:52.486 And then I happened to spot this button in the upper right. 00:31:52.526 --> 00:31:53.546 I'm like, oh, okay. 00:31:54.241 --> 00:31:57.861 And the thing is, there's got to be a way to communicate that. 00:31:57.871 --> 00:32:02.761 And, and something I bring up in the article is even a tool tip when you 00:32:02.761 --> 00:32:06.751 first log in after installing that new version where things have changed, 00:32:07.121 --> 00:32:11.421 you know, a little tour, you know, we had, when you install WordPress these 00:32:11.421 --> 00:32:14.121 days, you still get that little tour of Gutenberg every time you go into 00:32:14.121 --> 00:32:15.401 the block editor for the first time. 00:32:16.791 --> 00:32:19.541 Why not be able to do that when something. 00:32:20.191 --> 00:32:22.011 Significant has changed like that. 00:32:22.471 --> 00:32:25.871 You know, it just seems to me that we would save ourselves a lot of 00:32:25.871 --> 00:32:27.931 hassle, a lot of support requests. 00:32:28.241 --> 00:32:32.001 the WordPress org support forms would be probably a little less 00:32:32.021 --> 00:32:33.851 trafficked in that, in that moment. 00:32:34.371 --> 00:32:38.831 you know, we just need to do a better job of, of communicating when things 00:32:38.831 --> 00:32:40.621 change and why they've changed. 00:32:41.021 --> 00:32:44.851 I think that would be a huge help because we, we have client sites to take care of. 00:32:44.871 --> 00:32:45.431 And. 00:32:46.161 --> 00:32:48.441 You know, if we don't know if something's changed, we're not going 00:32:48.441 --> 00:32:49.861 to be able to inform our clients. 00:32:51.311 --> 00:32:56.001 Matt: just to pull back the curtain of the WP minute, that's on the YouTube 00:32:56.041 --> 00:33:02.301 channel, that is one of the things that I try to do in, in my content 00:33:02.451 --> 00:33:07.811 is, I get, I try to get real ahead of the new WordPress theme coming. 00:33:08.721 --> 00:33:11.941 So I'll try to, you know, this communication thing is, is 00:33:12.001 --> 00:33:14.191 super important, like you said, and it's also a challenge. 00:33:14.191 --> 00:33:16.971 So I don't throw it all at the core team, like. 00:33:17.611 --> 00:33:20.271 Not saying that you did, but I'm just saying in general sometimes on Twitter 00:33:20.281 --> 00:33:23.371 You'll see you know everybody just attacking everyone for these changes 00:33:23.701 --> 00:33:27.351 not that you know of course I've been guilty of it in the past, but I try to 00:33:27.351 --> 00:33:31.271 get ahead of things like here comes the new WordPress theme Like literally here's 00:33:31.271 --> 00:33:34.411 the announcement And here's what we can expect from it and then I'll do a follow 00:33:34.411 --> 00:33:38.391 up video as it starts to get into like either an alpha release or Certainly into 00:33:38.611 --> 00:33:40.381 a beta release like this is the theme. 00:33:40.391 --> 00:33:41.761 Here's how it's going changing. 00:33:41.771 --> 00:33:44.601 This is what you should, you know, you should expect. 00:33:44.941 --> 00:33:47.251 and then after it launches, it's here's how to use it. 00:33:47.251 --> 00:33:49.181 And then here's a bunch of like use cases around it. 00:33:49.181 --> 00:33:52.591 So I'll do like five or six videos around a core theme. 00:33:53.001 --> 00:33:59.611 and I know from folks like Anne McCarthy from automatic, rich taber, 00:33:59.621 --> 00:34:05.051 Nick Diego, a lot of these folks will reach out to try to educate Like 00:34:05.051 --> 00:34:08.281 the YouTubers and the other content creators to try to like resonate 00:34:08.281 --> 00:34:10.251 with that across our audience, right? 00:34:10.931 --> 00:34:12.941 I know there'll be new renewed efforts for wordpress. 00:34:12.941 --> 00:34:18.681 org YouTube content and things like that and it is this fine balance 00:34:18.701 --> 00:34:23.581 because oftentimes you can Just go right into github and be like, I 00:34:23.581 --> 00:34:24.961 don't like this upcoming feature. 00:34:25.211 --> 00:34:28.771 how can we rethink about, can we really reshape this or rethink 00:34:28.771 --> 00:34:29.791 how we're going to implement this? 00:34:30.081 --> 00:34:32.391 But the average user is not going to be able to, you know, 00:34:32.391 --> 00:34:33.681 do that, nor do they care. 00:34:33.891 --> 00:34:34.191 Right? 00:34:34.451 --> 00:34:37.931 so there's like, on one hand, there is opportunity to help affect this change. 00:34:38.141 --> 00:34:41.251 you know, oftentimes when, like, again, like when they release the new theme, 00:34:41.251 --> 00:34:43.991 they'll release the figma files of, and you'll see people designing it. 00:34:44.221 --> 00:34:47.431 Like, you'll log into the Figma file, you'll see people shaping it and 00:34:47.661 --> 00:34:48.961 doing their thing with the theme. 00:34:49.191 --> 00:34:51.971 And that's a perfect opportunity to start leaving feedback, to say 00:34:51.971 --> 00:34:54.351 like, Yeah, I don't really like how the, like, where this is headed, or 00:34:54.371 --> 00:34:55.851 this is a, this is a great thing. 00:34:56.191 --> 00:35:00.891 you know, I think both critical con, critical, So we're looking 00:35:00.891 --> 00:35:04.321 for not construct, constructive feedback, or critical feedback, 00:35:04.391 --> 00:35:06.071 it can happen in both places. 00:35:06.071 --> 00:35:10.441 So that WordPress is nice because it, it, it does have that ability, 00:35:10.441 --> 00:35:13.401 but you just have to find it and have the time for it, which again 00:35:13.531 --> 00:35:14.931 is challenging for the average user. 00:35:17.741 --> 00:35:19.541 We're going to move on to the next article. 00:35:19.891 --> 00:35:20.626 Pull this up. 00:35:21.426 --> 00:35:22.166 This is the big one. 00:35:22.226 --> 00:35:23.636 This is the one everyone's been waiting for. 00:35:23.646 --> 00:35:23.986 Eric. 00:35:24.366 --> 00:35:27.656 Oh, let's share it up onto the screen. 00:35:27.666 --> 00:35:31.786 How does automatic versus WP engine impact freelancers? 00:35:32.266 --> 00:35:37.306 another lovely AI quote from Eric to describe the tum tumult in a word. 00:35:37.656 --> 00:35:38.336 Uncertainty. 00:35:38.626 --> 00:35:40.176 We don't know what's coming next. 00:35:40.346 --> 00:35:43.116 That makes it hard to commit to the next project, let alone. 00:35:43.481 --> 00:35:45.841 Long term investment in a platform. 00:35:46.331 --> 00:35:46.871 Oh boy. 00:35:47.011 --> 00:35:50.741 Has the WP engine stuff been a thorn in our side? 00:35:51.011 --> 00:35:58.231 from WordCamp US to we're heading into a state of the word, almost Christmas time. 00:35:58.581 --> 00:36:03.751 we just had that, injunction come down or the ruling from, the court basically 00:36:03.751 --> 00:36:10.381 saying that, look, you have to give back, WP engines access to To, to wordpress. 00:36:10.391 --> 00:36:10.801 org. 00:36:11.011 --> 00:36:13.431 you have to give them back their plugin. 00:36:14.341 --> 00:36:16.141 I don't even know how that is going to happen. 00:36:16.421 --> 00:36:18.771 there is, you know, they have to do it within 72 hours. 00:36:18.771 --> 00:36:19.861 This happened yesterday. 00:36:20.121 --> 00:36:21.401 you have to restore access. 00:36:21.401 --> 00:36:25.481 You have to remove the checkbox from log, the infamous checkbox, that you 00:36:25.481 --> 00:36:28.611 have a relationship with WP Engine before you log into wordpress. 00:36:28.611 --> 00:36:32.731 org restore WP and control of ACF. 00:36:33.191 --> 00:36:34.861 it has been a wild ride. 00:36:34.871 --> 00:36:39.271 We hinted a little bit about it, of how it's impacted your business, but I know 00:36:39.271 --> 00:36:41.471 specifically you're a big ACF user. 00:36:41.711 --> 00:36:45.051 How did it impact you there with developing sites and, and 00:36:45.051 --> 00:36:46.431 communicating that with your customers? 00:36:47.966 --> 00:36:52.276 Eric: I can't say I really did a whole lot on that part of it. 00:36:52.336 --> 00:36:55.946 You know, I, I, I've been an ACF user ever since Elliot Condon 00:36:56.136 --> 00:36:57.816 built it many, many years ago. 00:36:58.396 --> 00:36:59.926 And I've continued to do it. 00:36:59.926 --> 00:37:01.096 I love ACF blocks. 00:37:01.096 --> 00:37:04.516 There's a tutorial on the WP minute to show you how to make your own 00:37:05.166 --> 00:37:06.746 ACF blocks if you're interested. 00:37:07.286 --> 00:37:11.226 But, It's something I've kept in mind though, because, you know, what if 00:37:11.236 --> 00:37:16.956 somehow that plugin fails or what if, you know, it can't be supported anymore. 00:37:17.316 --> 00:37:19.916 I'm out of luck because I've got, you know, probably a hundred 00:37:19.916 --> 00:37:25.086 sites that have some component of ACF, you know, implemented. 00:37:25.086 --> 00:37:29.016 So it's not something I've really been talking to clients about, cause 00:37:29.056 --> 00:37:30.126 I don't know what to tell them. 00:37:31.316 --> 00:37:33.866 How do you explain this to a person that doesn't know? 00:37:34.256 --> 00:37:37.916 But the tool is, you know, I, and I've been a pro user for a long, long time. 00:37:37.916 --> 00:37:42.926 So it hasn't really affected, you know, the ability to, to grab the pro version. 00:37:43.046 --> 00:37:46.346 those updates continue to roll just like, like, they always have. 00:37:46.616 --> 00:37:49.986 it's been the free version that, you know, has had the, the, the hiccup 00:37:49.986 --> 00:37:54.366 and how, how you update it and where you get the updates from, but, you 00:37:54.366 --> 00:37:55.966 know, it, it, it's something that. 00:37:56.271 --> 00:37:59.041 You know, we have to think about on everything we do now. 00:37:59.101 --> 00:38:04.271 you know, and I'm sure Matt Mullenweg did not intend for it to get to the 00:38:04.271 --> 00:38:07.781 point where we're second guessing every decision we make as freelancers. 00:38:07.811 --> 00:38:12.761 But when one company undergoes this kind of scrutiny, well, 00:38:12.771 --> 00:38:14.671 what's to stop the next one? 00:38:14.671 --> 00:38:17.341 I mean, there have been previous issues with GoDaddy. 00:38:17.531 --> 00:38:20.161 Years ago, GoDaddy was a parasitic company. 00:38:20.261 --> 00:38:23.431 Pantheon had a, had a run in with, Automatic years ago 00:38:23.431 --> 00:38:25.031 over a WordCamp sponsorship. 00:38:25.451 --> 00:38:30.911 you know, there's, these things happen and you don't want it to affect your clients. 00:38:30.911 --> 00:38:35.271 You don't want to get in the middle of it, but you know, there we are, we're, 00:38:35.271 --> 00:38:38.031 we're here, we're, we're in the middle of it, whether we want to or not. 00:38:38.031 --> 00:38:41.541 And, so that's something that, you know, for freelancers, we have to kind 00:38:41.541 --> 00:38:43.361 of to take that with us every day. 00:38:43.361 --> 00:38:43.531 And. 00:38:43.911 --> 00:38:47.781 Kind of, you know, scrutinize what we're doing to make sure that we're, 00:38:47.851 --> 00:38:51.981 we're putting ourselves in the best position to not have to rip apart our 00:38:51.981 --> 00:38:56.401 sites or, you know, having to, move on from tools that we're, we're using. 00:38:57.861 --> 00:38:59.581 Matt: Has it ever crossed your mind? 00:38:59.581 --> 00:39:02.791 Like when you first started seeing this stuff come about, like. 00:39:03.156 --> 00:39:03.426 Hmm. 00:39:03.436 --> 00:39:05.806 Maybe I should look at another CMS. 00:39:06.176 --> 00:39:09.506 Has that started to like cross your radar or do you have a 00:39:09.516 --> 00:39:11.986 backup plan for, for WordPress? 00:39:13.096 --> 00:39:13.466 Backup 00:39:13.466 --> 00:39:13.686 Eric: plan 00:39:13.686 --> 00:39:14.296 Matt: for WordPress? 00:39:14.306 --> 00:39:14.996 Eric: No. 00:39:15.046 --> 00:39:15.346 Matt: I can't 00:39:15.606 --> 00:39:18.556 Eric: say that I do, you know, I'm interested in trying other things. 00:39:18.556 --> 00:39:20.636 I I've tried a few other CMSs over the years. 00:39:20.636 --> 00:39:24.426 I honestly haven't been impressed just because I like to build things 00:39:24.426 --> 00:39:27.286 the way I want to build them and WordPress allows me to do that. 00:39:27.901 --> 00:39:30.791 And as long as it keeps allowing me to do that, we're all cool. 00:39:30.841 --> 00:39:34.681 But, you know, if it gets in the way of, you know, being able to take care of my 00:39:34.681 --> 00:39:38.861 client sites, if it gets in the way of, my ability to make a living with it, then, 00:39:38.871 --> 00:39:40.621 you know, you have to reconsider, but. 00:39:41.146 --> 00:39:45.046 At this point, I, I think, you know, I'm still fully on board, 00:39:45.046 --> 00:39:48.896 but you know, that's, subject to change, I guess, based on, you know, 00:39:49.106 --> 00:39:51.216 whatever way the wind blows in 2025. 00:39:52.296 --> 00:39:55.356 Matt: watch this space because, I will be announcing a new project 00:39:55.356 --> 00:39:58.506 soon, about exploring some other content management systems. 00:39:58.506 --> 00:40:02.286 And I've been down the path of really talking to people about these 00:40:02.306 --> 00:40:04.586 alternative, I, I say alternative. 00:40:04.586 --> 00:40:04.776 They're. 00:40:04.941 --> 00:40:09.571 Popular CMS platforms, you know, that are, are doing things their way. 00:40:09.571 --> 00:40:11.231 And it is eyeopening, you know, to hear. 00:40:11.231 --> 00:40:14.051 And of course, like the biggest challenge that I have found, like having these 00:40:14.051 --> 00:40:17.941 discussions aside from, you know, folks who are focusing on like Drupal, or ghost 00:40:18.251 --> 00:40:23.521 is that, you know, a lot of them aren't pure, 100 percent GPL, you know, community 00:40:23.521 --> 00:40:29.161 driven, but having, you know, talked to a lot of these other CMS platforms recently. 00:40:29.921 --> 00:40:31.221 I get why they don't do it. 00:40:31.601 --> 00:40:33.391 I get why they don't do it from a business sense. 00:40:33.411 --> 00:40:35.031 Largely to avoid things like this. 00:40:35.521 --> 00:40:39.111 You know, I mean, obviously, WordPress is just at a massive scale. 00:40:39.401 --> 00:40:43.141 So, you know, these things really become much more human problems than they are 00:40:43.141 --> 00:40:45.261 like real technical problems in my eyes. 00:40:45.651 --> 00:40:50.961 you know, but for a lot of these maybe like indie, CMS, you know, solutions, 00:40:51.381 --> 00:40:54.111 Their licensing matters to them for the sustainability of their business. 00:40:54.111 --> 00:40:57.001 No different than, you know, Hey, you need to buy a license for this plugin. 00:40:57.311 --> 00:41:01.521 you know, for support and these pro features, you know, I don't, I don't 00:41:01.611 --> 00:41:05.601 mind that another CMS is charging a few hundred bucks a year for a 00:41:05.601 --> 00:41:07.451 license to get access to their CMS. 00:41:07.461 --> 00:41:10.321 It just means that they'll be in business to continue to support this 00:41:10.331 --> 00:41:13.211 thing, which, and you'll, you'll know the path that they're on hopefully. 00:41:13.531 --> 00:41:16.431 and you know, I think that that's just common like business practice. 00:41:16.431 --> 00:41:17.471 And sometimes we can get. 00:41:17.931 --> 00:41:22.741 a little jaded about like the free and open source and GPL nature of of 00:41:22.751 --> 00:41:25.921 WordPress, massive benefit, no doubt. 00:41:26.331 --> 00:41:29.151 but sometimes it can sort of like close our eyes to, you know, some 00:41:29.151 --> 00:41:32.251 of the, these either alternatives or, or things that might be better 00:41:32.251 --> 00:41:36.101 solutions for the particular client that you might be facing or the 00:41:36.331 --> 00:41:38.311 vertical that you're in to, to support. 00:41:38.311 --> 00:41:40.651 So, yeah, anyway, watch this space. 00:41:41.286 --> 00:41:42.896 New project coming soon. 00:41:42.906 --> 00:41:45.396 Eric, it's always fantastic hanging out with you. 00:41:45.396 --> 00:41:47.876 And especially when we're recapping your five favorite articles from the 00:41:47.876 --> 00:41:49.106 WP minute, I really appreciate it. 00:41:49.951 --> 00:41:50.511 Eric: Hey, thank you. 00:41:50.511 --> 00:41:51.481 I've, I've had a great time. 00:41:52.371 --> 00:41:56.871 Matt: you can find Eric's writings every, I almost said every week, but two 00:41:56.871 --> 00:42:00.911 to three articles a month, every other week, almost every week at the WP minute. 00:42:00.911 --> 00:42:03.771 com the best place to subscribe the WP minute. 00:42:03.771 --> 00:42:06.821 com slash subscribe, jump on that mailing list. 00:42:06.821 --> 00:42:10.741 You'll find Eric's writing some thoughts from me, a roundup of content 00:42:10.761 --> 00:42:13.231 that we do here at the WP minute. 00:42:13.361 --> 00:42:14.011 Thanks for watching. 00:42:14.071 --> 00:42:15.751 We'll see you in the next episode.