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Hello and welcome to this next edition

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of the Mixing Light Office Hours.

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Happened to takes place on a

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Sunday late afternoon here,

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New York City time.

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A little bit unusual for us to hold a office hours

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on a weekend, but our

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wonderful Katie Hinson contributor

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and post-production person extraordinaire.

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This is her time that was available for us

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in the immediate future.

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You're in New Zealand, aren't you Katie?

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I am, I'm on vacation.

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That's how come I'm able to be available.

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(laughs)

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Yeah, that's right.

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When we emailed back and forth, you're like,

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actually it would be way

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easier for me to schedule time now

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than when I'm back in the States.

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So we're accommodating her.

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And so it's Monday morning where you are

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on a blustery wintery kind of almost spring day.

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Yeah, is it cold?

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It's cold, but it's really beautiful.

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So I am, here we go.

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I'm in rural New Zealand.

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(laughs) Yeah, there you go.

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Refreshing, renewing the spirit and the soul.

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That's right.

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That's right.

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Yes, that's excellent.

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And so today we're here to talk about

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a couple of different things, including, you know,

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we've got some intrepid people who've shown up,

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some members, thank you all for showing up

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on a Sunday.

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And so, you know, feel free.

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Like this is a great time for us to just have

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a round table discussion.

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If you have questions, if you want to jump in,

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raise your hand, we'll try

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to keep it kind of organized

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and I'll call on you so

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it's not a total free for all.

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And, but we want you to participate.

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And so we're going to be talking

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about a couple of things today.

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Mostly we're going to be

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talking about Katie's salary--

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I call it the salary survey

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because I think that's what motivates people

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to take this survey is I'll share,

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I'll share what I'm making in the hopes

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that I will then get other

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people sharing anonymously,

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of course, so I can see how I'm stacking up

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based on my experience, based on my role.

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And I get a sense of how I sit in the market.

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If you're new into this

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business, it's a great idea.

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Like how much should I be

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charging on an hourly rate

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if I've got two years of experience and I'm editing

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or I'm a colorist, right?

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And so if your entry level,

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this keeps you from undercutting everyone

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and also helps keep our

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pay rates at a healthy rate.

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So I always promote it as the salary survey,

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but Katie, you actually give

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it a slightly different name.

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Yeah, I just started calling

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it the post-production survey.

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I think we were calling it

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the rate survey for a while.

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We're nine years in now.

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I've been doing this for nine years, every October.

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It's kind of cool, but it's really important.

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It's a snapshot, right?

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It did start, as Pat said, it did start because

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when I started the Blue Collar Post Collective,

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we had a very active Facebook community.

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And the number one most

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common question people asked was,

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hey, look, I'm starting a new gig.

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What should I be asking for?

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Like how much should I be getting paid?

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While people wanted to help each other,

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they didn't want to be

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broadcasting what they get paid.

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And that's pretty fair.

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So I thought, well, what if

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I did an anonymous survey?

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Everyone can just put in their info,

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like what they're working on,

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how experienced they have,

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so everyone can compare apples to apples, you know,

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and then just kind of say how much they get paid

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and it's all anonymous,

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but you can see that somebody who's working

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on the same kind of thing as you,

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same kind of experience,

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they were all doing the same kind of job.

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You can kind of see what other people are making

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and kind of make your own determination

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of how much you want to offer for your own services

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because otherwise it's how

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long as a piece of string.

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And there's not a lot out

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there that does that for people.

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Some parts of our industry have union rates,

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but again, not everybody's entirely sure

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what all of that means sometimes.

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So sometimes it's just easier,

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especially for folks at entry level,

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but not just at entry level.

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If you haven't actually

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gone for a new job for a while,

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even I've found that, even I've used it for that.

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I don't change jobs that often.

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So I'm like, oh God, what's the market right now?

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Like, you know, what should I do?

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And I find now that a lot of hiring managers

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like myself now actually use it as well.

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So I tend to get in there and say,

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oh man, I'm trying to, I need to hire someone.

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Now I have a comp team that decides

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how much market rates are for things,

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but I don't entirely trust them.

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And I like to look at this as well and say,

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okay, well, what are people getting paid?

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To, you know, what should I be looking at,

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paying somebody for their services on a production?

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And I think that actually being able to have,

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and I encourage production managers as well,

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or producers who want to hire crew up on something.

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You know, when I was running,

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I was running post houses for quite a while

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and you know, we all probably know how it is.

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We get to post all the budgets gone away

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and everyone says, oh, can I get my film colored?

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Yeah, sure.

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How much money have you got?

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Well, I've got about $1,000 left in my budget.

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That is definitely not gonna happen.

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But I think by encouraging

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producers to get in there early

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and say, well, what should I

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be budgeting for a colorist?

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I think it's really helpful.

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And so there's lots of different uses for the data

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and that's why I make the full raw dataset public

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every year as well.

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So you can actually just

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sit there and take the old,

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take the Excel or the Google sheet

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and just start filtering and start looking at it

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and understanding kind of where you sit

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and comparing yourself to other people.

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I think that's really, really useful

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because there's also questions in there

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about how people get paid.

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So, you know, because a lot

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of colorists in particular

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who work at facilities get, you know,

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get commission on top of their salary.

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Other people charge out

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their equipment fee and kit fee.

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So I think, you know, that stuff is also captured

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and I think that's really useful.

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And some folks get bonuses,

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which are outside of their,

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outside of the salary as well.

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So I think, you know, even

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that information is useful

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for people to understand how they compare

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and maybe what they should be doing and asking for

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and advocating for themselves as well.

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Now the survey is open right now.

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It is through the month of October.

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For the month of October.

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I'll admit I have not yet done the survey.

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So I'm going to ask you though,

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as an owner operator myself,

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like I don't consider myself a freelancer

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and I'm certainly not staff.

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So the questionnaire will capture

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if I dig into the raw dataset,

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like, all right, as an owner operator

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who runs my own equipment,

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depreciates my capital, has to renew that.

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Like that is getting captured in there as well.

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So I can compare myself to other owner operators.

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It's an interesting thing.

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I don't capture owner operators necessarily

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as a specific data point

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within the overall post-production community.

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But what, you know, but I think how you are hired

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on a production is probably the way

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that you should consider it, right?

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So is your company hired

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and therefore you are staff?

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Or are you hired and therefore you are,

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you know, a contractor, a freelancer?

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Or are you somebody who has a loan out deal

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and you're consistently at a

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facility or on a production,

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but you don't work for that company,

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then you would be a

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perma-lancer or something like that.

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So those are the three categories

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because I try to be as broad as possible.

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I think a lot of people, you know,

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try to be more specific and say,

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but I'm not quite all of these things.

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But the thing is that when

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you're comparing yourself

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to 4,000 other people, you know,

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unfortunately you're not a special snowflake

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and it's actually not as useful for the dataset

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to have something that's very specific in there.

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If you're looking at the overall dataset,

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the way that people are gonna use that,

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they're gonna look at, you know,

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trends more than anything else,

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more than wondering what Pat Inhofer

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specifically has going on.

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They might wanna see what

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somebody who's highly experienced

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with very, you know, a lot of levels of experience,

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a lot of years of experience,

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who is hired out on a production for something.

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You know, what does that look like?

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You charge a kit fee, okay, cool.

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You know, this is your rate plus a kit fee.

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This is how much you're working,

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the kind of work you're doing,

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those kinds of things that are far more useful,

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I think, to the large.

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You know, it's interesting too.

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And when I filled it out in years past,

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the way I handled it was as a solo owner operator,

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I kind of know what my freelance rate is, right?

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Like if someone called me up and said,

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can you come to my place and

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work for me on an hourly basis

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and quote me that out?

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Like I know what that hourly rate is, right?

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I will tell you that I also know

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that it hasn't changed in 10 years, right?

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So even with all the inflation going on,

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like my base freelance set, you know,

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hourly rate is static and has been,

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in fact, when I look at editors, you know,

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I was a freelance editor

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before I was a freelance colorist

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and that rate, when I

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looked at what freelancer editors

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are making now, that

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hasn't changed in 15, 20 years.

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You know, they're losing,

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we're losing our purchase,

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our kind of power in the market.

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Yeah.

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So we do have the overall trends since 2018,

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you know, to 2023, because

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I can't tell you this yet,

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because we're only a week into

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in the survey for this year,

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is that pay versus inflation,

272
00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:57.840
the inflation adjusted rates are actually,

273
00:09:57.960 --> 00:09:59.519
inflation's going up faster than pay.

274
00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:02.120
There is a small overall trend upwards

275
00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:03.559
in pay rates.

276
00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:05.840
It's not a lot.

277
00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:09.120
Over the entire post production industry,

278
00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:13.320
the overall sort of rate of inflation

279
00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:15.519
that's gone up is about $5 an hour.

280
00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:20.759
But, you know, and if you kept up with inflation,

281
00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:23.519
it should have gone up by about 30.

282
00:10:25.879 --> 00:10:28.080
You know, so, you know, I did all of that,

283
00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:29.840
that's the analysis that I do every year.

284
00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:31.000
So we have the raw data

285
00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:33.759
set that goes into the survey

286
00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:36.120
and everybody can use that and look at their own,

287
00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:37.519
you know, their selves.

288
00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:39.519
But I also do this full analysis

289
00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:41.000
and put out a report every year.

290
00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:43.159
And again, on the website for the, you know,

291
00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:45.559
for this on postproductiondata.com,

292
00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:47.279
are all the reports.

293
00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:48.279
And last year's report,

294
00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:50.600
we actually looked at pay versus inflation.

295
00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:52.840
And funnily enough, the

296
00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:54.519
only time it actually was equal

297
00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:58.320
was 2020, which was interesting.

298
00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:01.440
I think the thing that changed in 2020

299
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:03.200
was that fewer people were working

300
00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:06.240
and only people who, you know,

301
00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:08.519
probably were at a certain level were working.

302
00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:12.399
So that's probably why the pay, you know,

303
00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:14.840
the pay versus inflation actually, you know,

304
00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:16.639
kissed each other a little bit that year.

305
00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:20.120
But otherwise, I think the general trend was that,

306
00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:23.000
you know, inflation went down and only people,

307
00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:23.679
the other people working

308
00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:26.000
were more highly paid in 2020.

309
00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:29.440
But otherwise, yeah, things aren't keeping up

310
00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:30.960
with inflation, but that's pretty standard

311
00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:32.639
across all the whole

312
00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:34.159
workforce in the United States.

313
00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:36.399
So we're not special.

314
00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:38.480
Pay is usually a lags inflation

315
00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:39.840
is typically what happens.

316
00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:40.279
It does.

317
00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:41.720
Now, and to finish the

318
00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:43.879
thought as an owner operator,

319
00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:45.159
because I know a lot of our

320
00:11:45.159 --> 00:11:46.720
members are owner operators.

321
00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:47.080
That's right.

322
00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:49.159
The way I filled out that survey is, all right,

323
00:11:49.159 --> 00:11:51.399
here's if I was in my market down the street,

324
00:11:51.519 --> 00:11:53.159
hiring myself out as a freelancer,

325
00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:54.360
I'll put down my freelance rate.

326
00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:56.919
But then if you're gonna hire me in my room

327
00:11:56.919 --> 00:11:58.159
in this space right here, I

328
00:11:58.159 --> 00:11:59.519
know what that kit fee is.

329
00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:01.960
And so then I just add that on as the kit fee.

330
00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:04.840
And that's kind of how I kind of get all that data

331
00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:05.879
into the survey.

332
00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:09.039
I was gonna say people make their best guess

333
00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:12.200
at how they should fill it out.

334
00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:14.360
And I think that generally the way that,

335
00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:15.200
and that's how we tend to

336
00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:17.480
capture how different groups work

337
00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:21.159
because different groups tend to have consistency

338
00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:22.039
in some way.

339
00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:25.200
So there are groups that just always have a kit fee

340
00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:26.919
that's kind of put into their rates.

341
00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:31.039
So they do tend to just add that some don't,

342
00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:33.840
and that's just generally quite consistent.

343
00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:36.080
So there is a thing that says that in addition,

344
00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:39.279
there is a kit fee, but yeah, that's cool.

345
00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:43.320
So yeah, you're showing it now.

346
00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:44.840
I see you are showing last

347
00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:46.279
year's report, that's cool.

348
00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:50.080
Yeah, and so you've got it,

349
00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:51.720
you've got a lot of,

350
00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:52.960
because this has been in the

351
00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:54.159
news for the past four years,

352
00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:55.120
and I think this type of

353
00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:57.360
data here in terms of race,

354
00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:00.519
in terms of gender, that's

355
00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:01.919
all kind of new additions.

356
00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:04.080
I think you probably started picking that up

357
00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:05.799
about four years ago or so,

358
00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:06.840
five years ago, wasn't it?

359
00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:08.840
No, I started doing, no, I've been doing that.

360
00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:11.840
I've been doing that since about 2017 or 2018.

361
00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:14.399
Okay, all right, so you were on that early.

362
00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:19.960
And yeah, and then there's also by,

363
00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:24.879
location, and I love the breakdown here

364
00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:28.639
of the various crafts that you're capturing.

365
00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:30.639
Yeah, I think it's important,

366
00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:32.519
because I think there is a

367
00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:33.600
big difference, obviously,

368
00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:35.200
between whether you're in one of the major,

369
00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:37.639
the New York or LA versus the rest of the country,

370
00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:39.840
but I think it's really important for folks

371
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:42.120
to see what the difference is,

372
00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:43.159
because one of the cool

373
00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:45.039
things that I saw was the change

374
00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:46.159
and how much that matters,

375
00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:47.120
whether or not you need to move

376
00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:48.039
to LA to have a career.

377
00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:49.440
And I think that was

378
00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:51.279
something that we really saw change.

379
00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:54.879
And you can see there, a location affects pay,

380
00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:56.399
that in 2020, it really

381
00:13:56.399 --> 00:13:57.639
didn't matter where you were.

382
00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:00.840
And as you can see, kind of go back to the office,

383
00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:03.840
2022, but then 2023, the strikes happened.

384
00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:06.399
And suddenly, again, it didn't matter so much.

385
00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:08.879
So I think there's, I'm really interested

386
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:10.519
to see how those trends continue.

387
00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:12.120
Tony's got his hand up.

388
00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:15.519
Oh, Tony, yeah, come on up, Tony.

389
00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:17.759
Sarah, Katie, first of all,

390
00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:19.559
I wanna thank you profusely.

391
00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:22.480
You are my post-production superhero.

392
00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:23.720
(laughing)

393
00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:24.080
Thank you.

394
00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:25.279
You are just stellar.

395
00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:26.600
And let me tell you why.

396
00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:28.600
I was in an interesting situation

397
00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:30.159
where a good friend of mine,

398
00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:32.879
his daughter is considering

399
00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:34.960
entering the post-production industry.

400
00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:37.600
And I didn't want to discourage them,

401
00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:39.600
given the situation, the way it is right now

402
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:40.519
here in the States,

403
00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:42.559
particularly, I'm in Los Angeles.

404
00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:46.159
And I said, if I could only provide some,

405
00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:49.279
what I call Intel, some intelligence reports

406
00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:52.120
that would give them an understanding of like,

407
00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:54.320
what is the past and what is the future is?

408
00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:56.799
And your report was it, was it, Katie.

409
00:14:57.440 --> 00:14:57.919
And I felt--

410
00:14:58.159 --> 00:14:59.080
Oh, that's awesome.

411
00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:01.960
I felt that I could empower his child

412
00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:03.840
to, I don't wanna tell

413
00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:05.399
them, don't even consider this.

414
00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:06.559
It's not worthwhile.

415
00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:11.399
I said, give them the Intel, let them assess it

416
00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:13.200
and let them make a decision

417
00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:15.279
as to what's best for their future.

418
00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:18.200
The girl is, I think, 16 or 17.

419
00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:20.720
And I said, and so I'm constantly sending articles

420
00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:21.720
that I found about this, but

421
00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:23.080
yours was so comprehensive.

422
00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:25.440
Anyway, I wanna thank you again,

423
00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:27.840
because I think together we made a difference

424
00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:29.399
in some young person's life,

425
00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:30.960
knowing what they're gonna do with their career.

426
00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:31.960
So thank you again.

427
00:15:32.679 --> 00:15:33.879
Oh, that's really cool, Tony.

428
00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:34.320
And thank you.

429
00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:36.440
I think it's so important to be able to,

430
00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:38.720
help, really help folks coming into the industry.

431
00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:40.519
I think there are a lot of young people today

432
00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:41.399
who are really worried,

433
00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:44.080
especially with all the headlines about AI

434
00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:45.639
and the end of creative

435
00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:47.279
careers and all that sort of thing.

436
00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:49.399
And I think it's really cool for us to be able to,

437
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:51.000
you know, those of us who are professionals,

438
00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:52.759
who have made a career,

439
00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:56.000
to be able to really speak to those thinking

440
00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:57.919
about a career in our industry,

441
00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:03.159
you know, with all of the information that we have,

442
00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:04.399
as well as the data we

443
00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:05.600
have from our own experience.

444
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:09.360
So just to be able to help them and encourage them.

445
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:11.639
And the one of the things that I always like to say

446
00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:14.399
is that where you or I or any of us started

447
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:16.320
or thought we were gonna be when we were 16,

448
00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:18.279
is not where we've ended up, for most of us.

449
00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:20.200
And I was pretty sure I knew

450
00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:21.559
exactly what I wanted at that age,

451
00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:22.320
I was that kind of kid.

452
00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:25.559
But there's so many roles in this industry

453
00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:28.039
that you don't even know exist until you get there.

454
00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:29.320
And roles that didn't exist

455
00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:30.639
when I started that exist now.

456
00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:34.279
And so I think it's really cool, Tony,

457
00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:35.840
that you were able to provide that information

458
00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:39.080
and have that, you know,

459
00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:41.759
and have that information to be able to provide,

460
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:42.720
especially for the parents.

461
00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:45.440
Just so that they can make that decision.

462
00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:46.320
Because I think it's a great place.

463
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:46.879
I think this industry is a

464
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:47.639
great place for everybody.

465
00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:50.759
Yeah, the one thing I will add in closing,

466
00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:52.200
the reason that I always try to do that

467
00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:55.159
is because I felt somebody when I was 15,

468
00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:58.320
was able to guide me and tell me

469
00:16:58.320 --> 00:16:59.399
when I asked them the questions.

470
00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:02.720
I think we're from a generation where, you know,

471
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:04.839
I consider I came from the analog generation.

472
00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:06.839
I think things were a lot more simpler to get in.

473
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.160
You just have to be willing to prove to somebody

474
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:12.160
that you were a worthwhile investment.

475
00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:14.799
So I was looking at that at my age,

476
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:16.079
and I encourage everybody to do this,

477
00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:19.920
is we have to pay it forward to pay it back.

478
00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:20.960
I guess that's what I'm looking for.

479
00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:22.599
But ultimately what it comes

480
00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:25.160
down to is knowledge is power,

481
00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:28.400
and power is the catalyst to positive change.

482
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:30.720
We just got to go out and find that.

483
00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:33.640
So your report was part of it.

484
00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:35.279
So once again, thank you.

485
00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:38.240
Thank you so much. You are my superhero.

486
00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:40.680
Aw, thank you. That's really sweet.

487
00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:43.599
Look, I think this is why it's done.

488
00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:44.960
I think the knowledge is so important,

489
00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:46.279
and the more that we're able and

490
00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:47.559
empowered to share with each other,

491
00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:50.200
even though we're fragmented in our industry a lot,

492
00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:51.160
especially freelancers,

493
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:54.519
the ability for us to have a vehicle like this

494
00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:57.039
where we can actually share knowledge,

495
00:17:57.160 --> 00:17:58.400
and knowledge is power.

496
00:17:58.400 --> 00:17:59.400
I really think it is.

497
00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:01.039
And I think that we can empower each other

498
00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:03.400
to advocate for ourselves in negotiations,

499
00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:05.799
to get a good rate, to keep rates good,

500
00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:08.759
and nice and strong as much as we can.

501
00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:09.920
I think that's really cool,

502
00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:11.680
and I love that we can use that for that.

503
00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:13.279
And the other thing in

504
00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:14.559
terms of knowledge being power

505
00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:16.200
and the transparency there is I

506
00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:17.480
also think that you can't improve

507
00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:18.680
what you don't measure.

508
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:21.039
And I see that from a business perspective

509
00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:22.559
and from a community perspective.

510
00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:25.279
And the reason why I do the analysis

511
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:26.519
and put the information out

512
00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:28.839
there about where we can do better

513
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:30.960
in terms of gender pay gaps,

514
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:32.839
racial pay gaps, things like that,

515
00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:34.920
is because I think that a lot of

516
00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:37.079
these things are done the easy way.

517
00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:37.960
I think people look at

518
00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:40.039
encouraging people into the industry

519
00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:42.039
and not thinking about actually,

520
00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:43.960
and not actually acknowledging where

521
00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:46.079
exactly we can target those efforts

522
00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:47.920
to make more meaningful impact.

523
00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:50.119
So one of the things that I like

524
00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:52.079
to show with my data analysis is,

525
00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:53.160
hey, look, here's somewhere

526
00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:54.240
where we actually need to target

527
00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:56.519
and maybe put more energy into

528
00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:57.920
making things more fair and equitable

529
00:18:57.920 --> 00:18:59.039
and encouraging people.

530
00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:01.480
And so that's something as well,

531
00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:03.920
I think it's worth looking at and exploring.

532
00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:07.119
So Pat is going to ask a question for Jamie.

533
00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:08.599
All right.

534
00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:10.680
I'm not sure I'm going to be able to fully

535
00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:12.319
represent what Jamie's asking.

536
00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:13.880
I'll give it a shot so because

537
00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:15.079
it gets a little complicated.

538
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:17.319
So Jamie asks, I'm experimenting

539
00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:20.160
with dropping my day rate for one client

540
00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:22.400
on the basis that I get more

541
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:25.519
of a pro rata part time salary

542
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:28.359
rather than my freelance day rate.

543
00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:32.839
If I say X dollars or X pounds

544
00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:35.519
per day times four days per week

545
00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:37.160
times four weeks per month

546
00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:38.680
times 11 months in a year,

547
00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:41.039
then I'm happy it's a competitive salary.

548
00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:44.920
But if I take my pro rata half time,

549
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:48.480
but it ends up being kind of ad hoc bookings,

550
00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:54.400
then my pound, that X, the dollars per hour

551
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:56.920
is way lower than a competitive freelance day rate.

552
00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.160
Do these calculations seem a reasonable guide?

553
00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:00.720
Any thoughts?

554
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:04.279
Maybe, Katie, maybe you want to restate that and

555
00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:05.119
then see if you can answer it.

556
00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:05.519
Yeah.

557
00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:07.559
I kind of get what you're saying.

558
00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:10.880
And it's something that a lot of

559
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:12.279
people had to try and calculate.

560
00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:14.440
And I strongly suggest that you

561
00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:15.720
actually look at those calculations

562
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.400
probably a little bit more deeply.

563
00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:21.640
So what you're essentially saying is that if you

564
00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:22.960
lower your rate for this one

565
00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:24.720
client, you'll get more consistent work.

566
00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:28.720
And more consistent work, you know that there is

567
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:29.839
more that you can kind of

568
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:31.640
assume you're going to get.

569
00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:34.440
And therefore, you can kind of

570
00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:35.960
predict a little bit more of your income.

571
00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:37.359
And if you do that prediction

572
00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:38.920
of what you assume will continue

573
00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:41.079
because you've lowered your rate, then it turned

574
00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:42.160
out to be a reasonable salary.

575
00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:45.039
However, if you were to-- and

576
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:46.400
the risk that you're taking there

577
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:49.240
is that it is not going to be that consistent.

578
00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:50.720
And you've gone and lowered your rate

579
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:51.920
for something that's not consistent.

580
00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:53.519
And then that kind of sucks.

581
00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:57.039
I'm assuming that's the

582
00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.319
summary of what you're asking, Jamie.

583
00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:00.599
And I think that that's probably

584
00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:02.839
a really good thing for this group

585
00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:04.400
as a roundtable to talk about.

586
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:08.119
Now, I've given a lot of colorists in my specialty

587
00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:09.640
in terms of business advice.

588
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:14.759
I think a lot of colorists have gone from being--

589
00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:18.519
have been gone from being staffed to being--

590
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:20.640
there we go-- have gone from being

591
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:22.920
staffed to being these solopreneurs.

592
00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:24.440
And it's a trend that we've seen

593
00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:25.720
over the last couple of decades.

594
00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:29.640
And one of the things about that I learned when I

595
00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:30.559
went and studied business

596
00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:34.279
from being just in post-production was that a lot

597
00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:35.599
of people who start up businesses

598
00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:38.839
are not people who come from a business background

599
00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:40.680
but who come from being whatever they are.

600
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:44.240
And I say, bakers start a

601
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:45.279
bakery because they like to bake,

602
00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:46.160
not because they like business.

603
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:47.279
And the same goes for colorists.

604
00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:49.559
So the more I am able to share

605
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:51.160
the education that I got in business

606
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:53.039
and starting small businesses and

607
00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:54.240
running small businesses, the better.

608
00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:57.079
So there is an insight there where I

609
00:21:57.079 --> 00:21:59.160
talk about how to do your finances.

610
00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:00.119
And it's something that I've

611
00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:01.359
coached a number of people doing.

612
00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:06.039
But that's-- there's-- there are

613
00:22:06.039 --> 00:22:08.519
different ways to understand, you know,

614
00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:09.920
the calculations, how much

615
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:11.680
you think you're going to get.

616
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:13.039
So you kind of need to

617
00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:14.240
start with all these exercises.

618
00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:16.039
And I guarantee you, Jamie's

619
00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:17.359
done that because he loves to--

620
00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:19.000
he's good at following my advice.

621
00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:21.400
And then you're going to

622
00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:22.319
need to understand, you know,

623
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:23.799
how you can have flex rates.

624
00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:25.200
So you can have these different--

625
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:26.400
now that you can look down here,

626
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:27.400
we have Pat scrolling down.

627
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:28.680
I do this with people.

628
00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:29.920
And it's usually where you can break

629
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:31.440
it down to multiple different rates

630
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:32.599
for different kinds of work.

631
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:34.480
So what Jamie can do here is

632
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:36.839
understand that for this different client--

633
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:38.279
because some people will say, well, I've got these

634
00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:39.559
clients that I really like working for,

635
00:22:39.559 --> 00:22:40.720
but they don't have the budget.

636
00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:42.799
And then I get these ones that have big budget.

637
00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:45.079
So we might talk about commercials

638
00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:46.880
versus TV versus films, for example.

639
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:48.160
You can see in this example, we've

640
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:49.680
got a rate for commercials and films,

641
00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:51.519
different rate for TV clients, for example.

642
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:54.279
So you just need to understand, you know, if you

643
00:22:54.279 --> 00:22:56.519
don't make it in the lower rate

644
00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:58.720
and the number of days per month you have to do the

645
00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:00.680
TV work or the lower work

646
00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:02.720
in order to get the amount that you need for your

647
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:05.160
salary that you do want to pay yourself,

648
00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:07.240
then you know that you're

649
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:08.039
going to have to go out there.

650
00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:09.079
And if you're not doing the

651
00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:10.279
work for the steady clients,

652
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:12.359
it's going to get you a lower rate.

653
00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:12.920
You're going to have to go

654
00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:14.519
hustle and get a higher one in a month

655
00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:16.319
to make the amount of money you need to make to pay

656
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:18.279
yourself the salary you want to pay yourself.

657
00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:21.039
So that's how we work it out

658
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:23.279
and we look at it in terms of...

659
00:23:24.279 --> 00:23:25.960
Because it's really common. It's really common.

660
00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:27.720
Most people, I think, have this kind of situation.

661
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:28.799
They'll have a steady client

662
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:30.599
that they get a lower rate for,

663
00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:32.680
but it's worth it because it's fairly steady.

664
00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:33.920
It'll be like a TV show or

665
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:36.160
something that's, you know,

666
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:37.920
a lot of people have a reality show, for example,

667
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:40.400
that they just do for years over and over again,

668
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:41.440
and it pays about half as

669
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:42.279
much as their normal rate,

670
00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:43.759
but they know it's always going to come in.

671
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:45.960
And they just know that if

672
00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:46.640
they're going to do that,

673
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:48.400
they need to get a certain

674
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:50.799
amount of other work or that work

675
00:23:51.519 --> 00:23:52.799
in order to get the salary

676
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:53.720
that they want to pay themselves.

677
00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:56.279
So I think that's kind of the calculation that you

678
00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:57.960
need to do to work that one out.

679
00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:03.039
And it's always got to start from how much your

680
00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:05.200
expense and your depreciation

681
00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:07.079
and all of those other things, and then how much do

682
00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:07.680
you want to pay yourself?

683
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:10.039
Because a lot of people forget when they start

684
00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:11.079
running their own business

685
00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:12.400
to pay themselves a salary.

686
00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:16.440
They forget about the

687
00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:17.960
costs that they have to go out,

688
00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:19.200
and they think they've got to pay rent and they've

689
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:20.160
got to do all these things.

690
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:23.559
But they actually forget to pay themselves,

691
00:24:23.559 --> 00:24:24.680
and they forget to give themselves insurance,

692
00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:27.440
and they forget to give themselves things like

693
00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:30.920
retirement planning and savings

694
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:33.319
and all of those other things.

695
00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:33.839
And equipment replacement.

696
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:37.559
Exactly. You've always got

697
00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:38.519
to think about those things.

698
00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:39.920
And that's how you need to

699
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:40.759
work out what your rate is.

700
00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:42.079
That's how you need to figure it out.

701
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:43.160
You need to figure it out by

702
00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:44.400
starting with those things,

703
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:47.039
and then you go, "Well, I have to charge this."

704
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:50.519
And you can have these multiple

705
00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:52.480
rates, like Jamie's talking about doing.

706
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:54.319
I think it's a really good way to do it.

707
00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:55.079
It's very, very common.

708
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:56.440
They have multiple rates because

709
00:24:56.440 --> 00:24:57.440
you want to be open to be working

710
00:24:57.440 --> 00:24:58.519
for different kinds of clients.

711
00:24:58.720 --> 00:24:59.920
You can't just have a single rate,

712
00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:02.039
and you know that you're going to end up suffering,

713
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:04.920
that you can't always take on every kind of client,

714
00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:06.079
and sometimes you need to be

715
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:07.319
able to be flexible in that way.

716
00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:09.200
So once you do that kind of...

717
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:10.720
If you do that kind of calculation,

718
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:12.359
you can understand where you can be flexible

719
00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:15.799
and what that means if you do need to be flexible.

720
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:17.640
The other thing I always recommend having

721
00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:19.240
is what we call a runway in business,

722
00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:25.839
which is a specific savings that is...

723
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:29.200
The runway is how long could you last,

724
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:31.160
paying yourself and all your bills, without work?

725
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:34.920
So your runway in life is

726
00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:36.559
very useful, as is in business,

727
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:38.279
but your runway is how many

728
00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:40.039
months can you survive without work?

729
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:47.119
So it's good to have a minimum three-month runway,

730
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:48.160
just in savings,

731
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:51.279
and that includes paying your own salary

732
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:53.160
and your expenses and everything else.

733
00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:57.960
So if that cost per month,

734
00:25:57.960 --> 00:25:59.279
once you've done all your calculations,

735
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:02.200
is say $5,000, for example,

736
00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:04.519
then you need to have $15,000 in savings.

737
00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:04.960
That's your runway.

738
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:07.839
And some people might have six-month runway

739
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:08.680
and are very comfortable.

740
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:10.440
Some people have a year runway.

741
00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:11.400
One year...

742
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:14.799
I knew that I had a year's runway and it was great,

743
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:16.200
and so I decided to take a sabbatical

744
00:26:16.279 --> 00:26:18.279
just to see how long it took before I got bored

745
00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:19.599
and wanted to work again, which was nice.

746
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:21.200
Folks who had decent runways

747
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:22.640
were able to get through COVID

748
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:24.279
and through the pandemic

749
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:27.119
shutdowns without freaking out so much.

750
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:29.400
It's a really good anxiety reducer

751
00:26:29.400 --> 00:26:32.839
when you are a small business or a freelancer.

752
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:35.519
And I think that's a really,

753
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:39.480
really useful thing to have.

754
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:42.319
So you don't freak out when you take risks.

755
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:44.279
And it's great to be able to take risks creatively,

756
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:45.200
I think, especially.

757
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:47.160
You know, sometimes you'll say,

758
00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:48.720
"Look, I don't know if I'm going to

759
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:50.079
be able to make any money on this show,

760
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:51.160
but I really love it.

761
00:26:51.160 --> 00:26:52.279
It's a film that's really cool and

762
00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:53.440
it might be really valuable to me."

763
00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:55.519
Then if you have the runway,

764
00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:56.559
then you can take that risk.

765
00:26:57.559 --> 00:26:58.559
So I think that's a really

766
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:00.680
valuable financial bit of advice

767
00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:01.839
that I like to give to people who

768
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:02.839
want to start their own business

769
00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:03.680
or go through that.

770
00:27:04.200 --> 00:27:06.759
Jamie, did we manage to help you

771
00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:09.519
when I rambled on about different ways of

772
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:10.759
organizing your finances?

773
00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:12.680
Yes, thanks. Yeah. Thanks

774
00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:14.160
for sharing that insight too.

775
00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:14.880
Good.

776
00:27:16.279 --> 00:27:17.400
That insight is brilliant.

777
00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:19.119
I went to it in the chat.

778
00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:22.160
And I'll also link to it when

779
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:24.200
this insight goes up on the website.

780
00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:25.640
And the Google spreadsheet I

781
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:27.640
showed there is embedded in there.

782
00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:30.160
You just want to download it, copy it yourself,

783
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:32.440
and then start filling out those numbers

784
00:27:32.599 --> 00:27:34.400
because, Jamie, I will tell you, I kind of

785
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:35.839
summarizing everything Katie said there,

786
00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:38.960
if I had to take that and turn it into a Google

787
00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:40.839
summary of two sentences.

788
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:42.720
Go on AI, Pat.

789
00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:44.559
Yeah, I'm going to go AI on you.

790
00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:50.200
So ChatPat says that, "No, you

791
00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:51.799
should not take that hourly rate

792
00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:53.599
and multiply it times four

793
00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:55.240
weeks, times five days a week,

794
00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:57.920
times 52 weeks a year,

795
00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:00.920
because you are not going to be working that much

796
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:02.160
and you will be kidding

797
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:05.680
yourself. You'll end up way short.

798
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:07.240
You need to make it...

799
00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:09.559
It needs to reasonably reflect

800
00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:11.160
the reality of your situation.

801
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:14.119
And that Google spreadsheet will get you there.

802
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:16.839
But it will also allow you to

803
00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:18.200
take that risk that you need to take,

804
00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:19.920
because that is completely normal that you need to

805
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:21.000
take those lower paid jobs

806
00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:22.640
to have the certainty of more work.

807
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:25.039
But you need to understand what that means,

808
00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:26.759
that if you've got a rate

809
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:27.559
that's going to allow you,

810
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:29.720
if you work that many days

811
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:31.720
in the year, to be just fine,

812
00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:33.519
but you need to know that if

813
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:35.240
that takes a turn downwards,

814
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:37.000
here's how you're going to make it

815
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:38.279
up. You're going to get one commercial.

816
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:40.759
So you're going to go out there and you know,

817
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:42.799
you know, because you've done the calculations,

818
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:44.519
that if that starts to dry out,

819
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:45.599
you just need to do one commercial.

820
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:47.440
Cool, I can do that. I can

821
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:48.880
hustle, I can get one commercial,

822
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:50.000
and then I'm good for the month.

823
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:52.640
You know what that actually takes.

824
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:54.160
And you don't have to go,

825
00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:55.319
because what most people do is they go,

826
00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:56.519
"Oh, shit, it's starting to dry

827
00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:57.599
out. I'm going to need 10 commercials.

828
00:28:57.839 --> 00:28:59.880
Oh, shit." Right? No, you don't.

829
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:01.599
You've done the calculations and

830
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:02.720
you know you just need to do one.

831
00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:06.160
So that's what's really valuable about doing that

832
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:08.400
and doing it proactively,

833
00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:09.759
is that you know what you

834
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:11.440
need to just live comfortably,

835
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:12.680
get your savings and do all of

836
00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:13.640
those other things you need to do.

837
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.200
You need, say, four of these jobs that you're

838
00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:17.240
thinking about taking in a week,

839
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:22.440
or one commercial, or one class, you know.

840
00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:23.480
And that's the cool thing

841
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:24.920
that you can just work out

842
00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:27.039
and you feel a lot less freaked out

843
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:28.480
about taking the rest of your life

844
00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:29.640
on those other jobs.

845
00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:34.400
So that's my advice to you. Cool.

846
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:36.759
Now, does anyone else have any questions?

847
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:38.720
Feel free to just open up your mic

848
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:41.279
and jump in if you have questions,

849
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:42.599
especially on this topic of

850
00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:45.880
pay, setting your rate, kind of...

851
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:47.839
Yeah, money, anything related to money.

852
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:49.279
Katie's great on this.

853
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:51.599
I mean, and Katie, I guess, you know, one of the

854
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:52.640
things that makes you so good

855
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:56.200
on this topic is you're both an

856
00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:58.200
artist, you've been the artist,

857
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:00.720
and now you've also been management.

858
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:02.759
And you see and understand

859
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:05.519
the decisions of management,

860
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:08.720
how they see the artist versus how you thought...

861
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:10.640
When you first got into that,

862
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:12.519
when you made that transition,

863
00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:15.359
were you surprised by what you learned,

864
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:16.160
or were you already pretty

865
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:18.279
sophisticated about how you set your rates

866
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:19.440
and all of that stuff?

867
00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:24.039
Not so much surprised, but I

868
00:30:24.039 --> 00:30:26.119
loved having the information as power,

869
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:29.039
and I loved suddenly getting insights into why

870
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:30.400
things are done the way they're done.

871
00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:33.920
So there was that side of it, and then there was

872
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:36.440
also the fact that I also studied business.

873
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:39.400
I went kind of back to school and studied business,

874
00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:40.720
and particularly focused on

875
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:41.880
small businesses and startups,

876
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:46.000
because I thought that they had a lot more

877
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:47.880
alignment with the post-production industry,

878
00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:48.680
small businesses and startups.

879
00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:51.359
In fact, the way that startups are funded is

880
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:52.799
exactly the way films are funded,

881
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:54.240
which is fascinating to me.

882
00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:57.680
So, you know, I had that,

883
00:30:57.680 --> 00:30:58.720
and I also had the insights,

884
00:30:58.720 --> 00:30:59.839
and the cool thing was that

885
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:01.319
the way Colorists are paid is,

886
00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:03.519
I think, the most interesting part of our business.

887
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:06.680
And now that I have the power of knowledge,

888
00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:09.920
I spend as much time as I can

889
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:12.039
coaching Colorists to get paid better.

890
00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:15.759
I love it when Colorists are...

891
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:16.880
especially the big

892
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.759
Colorists that are at the big shops,

893
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:22.000
because the way they're paid is super complex,

894
00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:24.599
and there's a whole bit of math at the back end on

895
00:31:24.599 --> 00:31:25.519
how much we want to offer a

896
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:26.680
Colorist and how they get paid.

897
00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:29.319
And because Colorists for

898
00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:32.000
post-houses today are the commodity.

899
00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:33.759
The Colorist is the commodity.

900
00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:36.319
So if you're at a post-house, know that.

901
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:38.079
You are, unfortunately, a walking check.

902
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:39.519
You are.

903
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:41.359
And that's the way you're saying.

904
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:43.279
You are the thing that they are selling.

905
00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:47.519
And so it's really

906
00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:48.680
interesting to frame it that way,

907
00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:49.799
and to understand how

908
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:51.440
Colorists in those situations,

909
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:53.000
once you have a certain

910
00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:54.039
amount of billing in a year,

911
00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:56.319
you become the commodity.

912
00:31:56.920 --> 00:31:59.319
And it's a different way that you get paid.

913
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:01.400
And knowing that, and being

914
00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:03.079
able to say to go out to...

915
00:32:03.079 --> 00:32:04.559
I go out to Colorists now, and I say,

916
00:32:04.599 --> 00:32:07.079
"You actually are at a point in your career where

917
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:08.400
you can start getting paid this way."

918
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:10.200
And that's why there are these Colorists in

919
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:10.839
Hollywood that get paid

920
00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:11.880
this stupid amount of money.

921
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:13.599
There's a different way that they're paid.

922
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:14.640
There's a totally different economics.

923
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:17.559
And so I love to go to these people and say,

924
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:18.960
"You know, you're actually good enough for this.

925
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:21.079
You are, and if you're not paying you this way,

926
00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:22.960
you need to start to ask them to pay you that way."

927
00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:26.599
And the math behind it, and helping people

928
00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:29.039
negotiate really much better rates,

929
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:31.200
knowing what it looks like from both sides,

930
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:33.039
and what it looks like under the hood at the back

931
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:34.000
end of how it's calculated,

932
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:35.680
then I can say, "You can

933
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:37.279
actually ask for up to this amount,"

934
00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:38.359
because they will say, "Yes,"

935
00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:39.880
because of the economics behind it.

936
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:42.079
So being able to just get

937
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:43.640
people that information is so cool.

938
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:46.599
Now, we've talked about with you on

939
00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:48.640
Mixing Light in a previous insight,

940
00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:52.160
exactly how this happens with the big facilities,

941
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:55.559
how the commission structure and all of that.

942
00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:56.000
Yeah.

943
00:32:56.279 --> 00:32:58.279
But from the facility side, though,

944
00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:01.079
are they willing to do that because the Colorist

945
00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:03.160
brings in the rest of the job?

946
00:33:03.160 --> 00:33:05.759
It's bringing them in from pre-production,

947
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.599
and they know that by locking down the Colorist,

948
00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:10.160
they're kind of getting the whole

949
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:12.359
pipeline, or is it just simply...

950
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:14.079
No, it's not. It's not.

951
00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:14.279
No, it's not.

952
00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:16.319
It's because they can command the money.

953
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:17.960
It's both.

954
00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:20.519
It tends to be that the Colorists

955
00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:21.920
have the relationships with DPs.

956
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:26.920
And so the best bit of sales that you

957
00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:28.839
can do is to have the right Colorist,

958
00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:30.359
who has the relationships with DPs.

959
00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:33.279
Or there'll be a Colorist who's just

960
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:34.720
so good a DP wants to work with them.

961
00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:38.559
And I think as you all are as Colorists,

962
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:39.319
you make relationships.

963
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:40.839
A lot of the Colorist work

964
00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:41.960
is all about relationships,

965
00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:43.279
as editors are as well.

966
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:45.039
You know, if you're in the

967
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:46.519
room with somebody with a client,

968
00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:47.920
then you have relationships with clients.

969
00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:49.799
That's how you do your business.

970
00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:53.079
So if the facility has you,

971
00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:54.200
the facility has your clients.

972
00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:57.039
So that's the thing.

973
00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:59.079
They don't have to go out and get clients.

974
00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:01.759
The clients are going to go with people they like.

975
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:05.519
So when they buy a Colorist, they buy the

976
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:07.599
Colorist's Rolodex or contact list.

977
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:11.320
And so that's really what it comes down to.

978
00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:15.800
And there is a point where it's really worthwhile

979
00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:18.960
for a facility to buy a Colorist.

980
00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:21.199
And that is when you have a

981
00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:23.840
billing, total billing in a year.

982
00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:27.400
So exclusive of costs or anything like that.

983
00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:29.480
Just full on account.

984
00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:30.559
Gross billings.

985
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:33.480
Gross billings had about a million dollars a year.

986
00:34:34.039 --> 00:34:36.440
So now that sounds like a lot of money,

987
00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:38.559
because not everyone's making a million dollars a

988
00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:39.559
year, but neither are they.

989
00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:43.920
It's how much over a whole year.

990
00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:47.199
And that might be three or four feature films.

991
00:34:47.800 --> 00:34:49.320
That's not a whole lot.

992
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:55.320
So really, once that gross billing can potentially

993
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.639
be a million dollars a year, that's when you become

994
00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:01.000
somebody who is extremely valuable

995
00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:02.519
to a larger facility.

996
00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:05.679
Smaller facilities, if you're billing gross under a

997
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:07.199
million, you are still valuable to

998
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:08.639
a smaller facility, but you won't necessarily get

999
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:11.199
paid with that commission structure.

1000
00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:15.199
So the commission structure is where they know they

1001
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:16.360
see you as a million dollar check.

1002
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:18.320
And when they see you as a million dollar check,

1003
00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:21.800
then you have a lot more power to be

1004
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:22.920
able to make those kinds of

1005
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:25.440
negotiations for really good pay.

1006
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:32.679
I noticed in the last 2023, I think it was a 2023

1007
00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:37.679
pay survey or survey, there was a differentiation

1008
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:39.400
between the type of work you did.

1009
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:42.320
So when you were doing commercials versus long form

1010
00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:45.800
versus serial television, there

1011
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:47.519
were some pretty significant,

1012
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:49.159
especially for commercials, right?

1013
00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:49.639
When you're working on

1014
00:35:49.639 --> 00:35:51.000
commercials, you get paid a lot more.

1015
00:35:51.639 --> 00:35:53.599
Do you find that within that pay structure, if

1016
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:55.800
that's what you're aspiring aspiring to

1017
00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:58.719
be able to make that kind of money and really give

1018
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:00.400
up what you need to give up in your life

1019
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:03.119
to fit into that system, right?

1020
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:09.559
Do those colorists, are they like focused on making

1021
00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:10.920
sure they have a lot of commercial

1022
00:36:11.079 --> 00:36:15.039
DPs or is it like anybody in any one of those slots

1023
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:19.199
can fit into these big post houses and

1024
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:20.559
start working off a commission

1025
00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:23.480
and or do you really need to focus?

1026
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:25.960
Yeah, no, anybody can.

1027
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:28.400
And I think everybody when they get to a certain

1028
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:30.159
level in their career, it starts to focus

1029
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:31.159
on a certain kind of client, you

1030
00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:34.719
just get really good at certain things.

1031
00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:37.280
You really enjoy doing a certain kind of thing.

1032
00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:39.239
There are some people who just really freaking love

1033
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:40.679
doing commercials and music videos, and

1034
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:41.519
it's their specialty.

1035
00:36:41.719 --> 00:36:42.880
And it's what they really love doing.

1036
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:43.840
And they're really good at it.

1037
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:47.400
And so a post house that wants to do or does a lot

1038
00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:49.000
of high end commercials will come and

1039
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:51.320
invite you to come in and

1040
00:36:51.320 --> 00:36:52.360
work for them, for example.

1041
00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:56.719
So when I was developing post houses that do like

1042
00:36:56.719 --> 00:36:58.159
wanted to get into Super Bowl commercials,

1043
00:36:58.400 --> 00:36:59.440
you go find the colorist that

1044
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:00.400
does super well commercials.

1045
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:05.079
And if you are doing feature films, there are also

1046
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:07.840
indies versus there are colorists that

1047
00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:10.360
make massive amounts of money doing indies.

1048
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:11.280
That's their thing.

1049
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:12.880
And then there are the ones that

1050
00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:16.280
do the big Hollywood tent poles.

1051
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:17.920
And there are actually ones who

1052
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:19.440
do really good high end television.

1053
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:20.719
They tend to be more technical.

1054
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:23.800
People like Rory Gordon, who is a color scientist

1055
00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:27.639
and colorist when it comes to specialized

1056
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:31.079
for streaming shows, the high end stuff, because

1057
00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:35.639
she can handle the HDRness of it, all of the

1058
00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:37.519
different those different things and do really

1059
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:40.000
beautiful things within a very technical thing.

1060
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:42.199
Like that's her that's her specialty.

1061
00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:43.559
So she has a great amount

1062
00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:44.840
of value to people as well.

1063
00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:46.719
So it really depends.

1064
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:48.679
Everybody specializes in

1065
00:37:48.679 --> 00:37:49.960
something and has their niche.

1066
00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:51.880
We also as we mature in our careers.

1067
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:54.639
So there is a place for everybody at the high end.

1068
00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:57.960
There really is even in even in reality shows there

1069
00:37:57.960 --> 00:37:59.199
is a place for everybody at the high

1070
00:37:59.199 --> 00:37:59.880
end of everything.

1071
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:02.440
Where there's money, there is a place for people at

1072
00:38:02.440 --> 00:38:03.920
that end of where the money is.

1073
00:38:05.079 --> 00:38:07.880
And I think it's really about what you enjoy

1074
00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:09.360
because what you enjoy, you'll get good at.

1075
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:12.519
So I think I think what I'm hearing from you then

1076
00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:14.519
is as you're developing your career,

1077
00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:19.239
you know, focus on relationships, find the DP you

1078
00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:20.920
like to work with and then get that

1079
00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:25.039
and then work with that DP to keep coming back as

1080
00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:28.920
they grow, you grow and and then and

1081
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:30.000
then have a couple of those.

1082
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:31.079
And then while doing that,

1083
00:38:31.079 --> 00:38:32.599
figure out what it is you love to do.

1084
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:34.360
And it might be a mix of everything.

1085
00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:35.800
It might be a subspecialty.

1086
00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:39.039
And then just keep going down that path.

1087
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:42.880
And all of those things are valuable to post

1088
00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:44.280
houses, to the high end post houses.

1089
00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:48.119
It is it is important to have a mix of colorists so

1090
00:38:48.119 --> 00:38:51.039
that you get a mix of clients and so you

1091
00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:52.400
don't put all your eggs in one basket.

1092
00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:54.960
And that includes colorists that are really awesome

1093
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:56.280
at doing lots of different things

1094
00:38:56.320 --> 00:38:57.239
and colorists that are

1095
00:38:57.239 --> 00:38:58.559
really awesome at doing one thing.

1096
00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:01.679
You know, there are colorists who are just known as

1097
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:03.440
one director's colorist, but that

1098
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:05.679
director only does hundred million dollar films.

1099
00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:09.079
And there are colorists who are just known as you

1100
00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:10.719
can throw anything at them and they'll

1101
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:11.920
be amazing at it.

1102
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:14.920
And that's also important because just like I was

1103
00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:16.679
saying to Jamie before, you have to

1104
00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:19.280
have that you have to understand the economics of

1105
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:22.199
of variation and what you do as well.

1106
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:26.840
And I'm guessing this also applies to editors, VFX

1107
00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:30.440
artists, audio mixers, people like that.

1108
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:30.840
Right.

1109
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:33.079
It does.

1110
00:39:33.079 --> 00:39:33.960
For the most part.

1111
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:35.159
Yeah, I think there's a there's a

1112
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:36.320
place at the high end where everybody.

1113
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:40.440
Even folks that that, you know, whose careers have

1114
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:42.199
changed, there's always a place for the

1115
00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:43.039
high end of everything.

1116
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:44.800
So, you know, I like to remind people that I

1117
00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:47.400
started out as an online editor in the 90s

1118
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:48.960
when they were the rock stars because there weren't

1119
00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:51.679
colorists and online editors were

1120
00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:52.639
where the money was.

1121
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:53.800
Right.

1122
00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:54.159
Yeah.

1123
00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:56.800
And then the industry

1124
00:39:56.800 --> 00:39:58.079
changed because of technology.

1125
00:39:58.639 --> 00:39:59.599
Funnily enough, doesn't

1126
00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:00.559
that sound familiar right now?

1127
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:03.800
And it essentially wiped online editors off the map

1128
00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:07.719
and it became a fairly low end job

1129
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:09.119
for in many cases.

1130
00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:10.960
And so online editors went

1131
00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:12.079
up and did different things.

1132
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:14.719
But a small number of people stayed online editors

1133
00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:17.400
and sat at the top end of the market.

1134
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:20.039
It's always a place for that

1135
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:21.880
bespoke, very highly skilled stuff.

1136
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:24.119
That's what I did ended up keeping on doing.

1137
00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:26.079
Actually, Jamie was was one of them as well.

1138
00:40:26.079 --> 00:40:28.639
Jamie and I both, you know, continued at that high

1139
00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:30.840
end of being online editors of the few

1140
00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:33.440
that continued for many more years.

1141
00:40:34.039 --> 00:40:35.800
And we're able to make a decent living that way and

1142
00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:36.960
continue to be the rock stars.

1143
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:38.639
You know, the online editor is so cool.

1144
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:38.840
Right.

1145
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:42.719
But, you know, but the thing is that there is so

1146
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:44.800
there is always a place for, you know,

1147
00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:45.400
for that as well.

1148
00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:46.119
It will continue.

1149
00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:46.920
There's just less of it.

1150
00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:50.079
And so I think it's important to remember,

1151
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:51.440
especially as there's a lot of uncertainty

1152
00:40:51.559 --> 00:40:53.639
now about change because of technology.

1153
00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:57.199
The job you do today may not may not continue to be

1154
00:40:57.199 --> 00:41:00.239
the same, but we're also not going to

1155
00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:01.760
be the same person and you're not going to enjoy

1156
00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:03.079
doing the same things and technology

1157
00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:05.039
changes and changes and everything changes.

1158
00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:08.519
And there is we're always going to evolve.

1159
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:11.880
Yeah, I mean, I also you know, those of us grew up

1160
00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:13.719
in this business in the 90s and I

1161
00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:16.719
started in this business in late 89.

1162
00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:20.760
In fact, Ken Sirulnick on the call, he and I started

1163
00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:23.199
it was our first job in Manhattan,

1164
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:25.079
Northeast video, I think it was 1989.

1165
00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:29.719
And so I'd be we both in our own ways, we follow

1166
00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:31.480
different paths, became online editors.

1167
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:33.599
And it was really actually a pretty straightforward

1168
00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:35.519
transition into colorist because the pitch

1169
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:38.280
was I know what makes pictures look great.

1170
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:39.079
Right.

1171
00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:39.559
I've been delivering

1172
00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:41.119
straight to broadcast for a decade.

1173
00:41:41.800 --> 00:41:44.320
And so now if you want to hire someone who can get

1174
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:46.719
something out of, you know, a Symphony

1175
00:41:46.840 --> 00:41:50.440
or Final Cut Pro or whatever it was at the time, we

1176
00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:52.679
were able to naturally just step

1177
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:53.719
into that role.

1178
00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:55.480
And now we're about to go and I'm going to now

1179
00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:57.559
morph this into the second part of our

1180
00:41:57.559 --> 00:41:58.079
discussion.

1181
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:01.079
We have 15 minutes, which is

1182
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:03.320
the next big transition I see.

1183
00:42:03.320 --> 00:42:05.519
I mean, we've had some technology transitions over

1184
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:08.320
the last 20 years since nonlinear editing

1185
00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:10.199
computer based editing came out.

1186
00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:16.840
I think color management and digital cinema cameras

1187
00:42:16.840 --> 00:42:18.920
are the two that kind of grew up side

1188
00:42:18.920 --> 00:42:19.400
by side.

1189
00:42:19.639 --> 00:42:20.880
One kind of begat the other.

1190
00:42:21.880 --> 00:42:24.239
And so we're seeing all of that kind of come to

1191
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:26.400
fruition now that we've now we've got high

1192
00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:30.119
dynamic range and wider color gamut.

1193
00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:32.280
So now the palette is starting to

1194
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:35.719
grow for digital colorists and artists.

1195
00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:38.159
But and that's a transition.

1196
00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:40.320
But I think the next transition we're really going

1197
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:41.599
to see like, is there something equivalent

1198
00:42:41.719 --> 00:42:44.360
to online editing to nonlinear

1199
00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:47.159
editing, you know, analog to digital?

1200
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:51.440
I think without a doubt, machine learning has to be

1201
00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:53.320
the big like, you know, there's

1202
00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:54.440
a siren going off and you

1203
00:42:54.440 --> 00:42:55.679
need to be looking at that siren.

1204
00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:58.599
If nothing else, keep paying attention to it.

1205
00:42:58.960 --> 00:42:59.199
Right.

1206
00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:02.039
I'm not saying that you right now need to become a

1207
00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:05.079
prompt engineer for whatever.

1208
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:05.800
Right.

1209
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:07.159
That's yeah, exactly.

1210
00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:08.639
That's not what I'm saying needs to happen.

1211
00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:11.440
But Katie, you've you've been around this.

1212
00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:12.400
You've written for Mixing

1213
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:13.519
Light on this several times.

1214
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:16.679
You know, right now, October 2024,

1215
00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:17.800
where do you see this happening?

1216
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:20.079
And then kind of in your mind, if you can hook that

1217
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.159
into like the the post-production

1218
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:25.599
survey and how you think it's impacting those

1219
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:27.599
trends or what we should be looking for in

1220
00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:28.480
this year's survey.

1221
00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:32.519
Yeah, no, I think that's an excellent, excellent

1222
00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:34.960
challenge for me, Pat, to talk about two very

1223
00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:37.079
different parts of my knowledge base.

1224
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:38.880
No, that's very good.

1225
00:43:38.920 --> 00:43:41.800
Look, I've been you know, I started out my career

1226
00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:44.920
as this plucky smart kid who got thrown

1227
00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:47.480
all the new technology stuff.

1228
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:52.159
I now I'm a plucky, smart, older kid or who still

1229
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:53.519
gets thrown the technology stuff.

1230
00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:55.920
But it's you know, it's always

1231
00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:57.800
been a big part of my my interest.

1232
00:43:58.360 --> 00:43:59.920
And I think we're all here because we're all

1233
00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:02.119
curious about things and we're all we're all

1234
00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:03.000
creative technologists.

1235
00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:05.360
We all are, I think, to an extent some more

1236
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:06.920
creative, some more technologists, but we're

1237
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:08.199
all creative technologists and what

1238
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:11.079
we do is we use technology to make art.

1239
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:12.119
That's what we do.

1240
00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:15.440
And whether that technology is film strips or

1241
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:16.800
whether technology is computers, that's

1242
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:17.280
what we do.

1243
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:21.159
We we manipulate science to make art.

1244
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:25.880
And I think we will always do that.

1245
00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:29.159
There is one thing I can say for 100% sure is that

1246
00:44:29.159 --> 00:44:30.800
computers by their very nature, by

1247
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:32.679
the very nature of being a computer cannot be

1248
00:44:32.679 --> 00:44:34.119
artists cannot be creative.

1249
00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:36.719
But they can be a tool to make art.

1250
00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:40.039
And the other thing I can say for being very deep

1251
00:44:40.039 --> 00:44:41.559
under the hood of a number of these AI

1252
00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:43.920
companies is that they all want to make money.

1253
00:44:44.599 --> 00:44:46.320
And if they want to make money off artists who are

1254
00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:48.599
the users of those tools, they're

1255
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:50.079
not going to put those users out of business,

1256
00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:53.480
they're going to start at least by at least

1257
00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:55.079
by making things that we want.

1258
00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:57.079
And that's really interesting.

1259
00:44:57.320 --> 00:45:00.599
So it's actually so it's actually what you're

1260
00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:02.559
saying is actually in their interest not to

1261
00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:05.320
put us out of business is what you're saying.

1262
00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:06.639
Because we are their customers.

1263
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:10.039
Okay, you think about if you think about all of

1264
00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:11.679
these NLEs, if you think about

1265
00:45:11.679 --> 00:45:13.679
Adobe and we are their customers,

1266
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:15.079
why would they put us out of business?

1267
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:20.559
But so they are going to, you know, they are going

1268
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:22.360
to make tools that benefit us.

1269
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:26.000
Now obviously, that doesn't mean like any

1270
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:28.320
technology, no technology is neither inherently

1271
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:28.960
good nor bad.

1272
00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:30.320
It is what you do with it.

1273
00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:31.960
And people are always going to do good things and

1274
00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:33.000
bad things with technology.

1275
00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:35.199
We know that we've seen that look at the internet.

1276
00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:37.800
I mean, is it inherently good or inherently bad?

1277
00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:39.800
It is neither, but people do good

1278
00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:40.800
and bad things with the internet.

1279
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:44.039
So it's going to be the same with with AI, machine

1280
00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:45.119
learning and all the things that come

1281
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:45.559
out of it.

1282
00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:47.199
Cognitive computing,

1283
00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:48.840
whatever else is going to be good.

1284
00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:50.079
It's going to be people that do good things and

1285
00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:50.960
people that do bad things.

1286
00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:51.760
It's already the case.

1287
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:54.840
So it's what we do with it.

1288
00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:56.719
And certainly, these companies are going to make

1289
00:45:56.719 --> 00:45:58.440
tools for us that they want us to buy.

1290
00:45:58.920 --> 00:45:59.920
So they're going to make tools

1291
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:01.320
that are really useful to us.

1292
00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:03.679
And they're engaging a lot with the creative

1293
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:05.559
community to see what it is that we actually

1294
00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:07.039
give a shit about wanting to buy.

1295
00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:10.599
And they're saying, oh, we're going to do something

1296
00:46:10.599 --> 00:46:12.239
that colorist never have to be colorist

1297
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:12.440
anymore.

1298
00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:13.280
Everyone's going to go,

1299
00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:14.559
but I like being a colorist.

1300
00:46:14.559 --> 00:46:15.920
Why would I not want to be a colorist?

1301
00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:17.320
I don't want to buy that.

1302
00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:18.639
But in theory, though, this

1303
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:19.840
tool that's going to make it.

1304
00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:22.320
But the pushback on that, the pushback on that is,

1305
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:23.599
well, I'm a producer and I don't

1306
00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:25.639
want to pay the colorist because they make so much

1307
00:46:25.639 --> 00:46:26.920
money that they actually make commission

1308
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:28.920
off of what I'm paying the big post.

1309
00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:29.320
Absolutely.

1310
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:31.880
So I can speak to that too.

1311
00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:34.639
And that's something that I've looked at a lot

1312
00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:35.840
because that's something I tend to look

1313
00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:36.880
about 10 years in the future.

1314
00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:37.800
So about for the last 10

1315
00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:39.039
years, I've been looking into that.

1316
00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:42.599
So there's it's just like everything else.

1317
00:46:42.599 --> 00:46:45.000
When producers got their hands on final cut pro,

1318
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:46.320
did we stop having editors?

1319
00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:49.079
Producers were able to.

1320
00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:52.599
The time was we'll be able to

1321
00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:53.920
get it done in half the time.

1322
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:55.320
And what really ended up happening is

1323
00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:56.880
you just cut twice as many versions.

1324
00:46:57.159 --> 00:46:57.639
That's all that happened.

1325
00:46:57.639 --> 00:46:58.079
That's right.

1326
00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:00.639
So I think what I think what happens is that there

1327
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:03.519
is going to be a lot of auto color correct.

1328
00:47:03.519 --> 00:47:04.320
There already is.

1329
00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:04.440
Right.

1330
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:06.360
There's a whole lot of auto grade my shit.

1331
00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:11.199
But is that the audience knows the difference

1332
00:47:11.199 --> 00:47:12.920
between the good stuff and the bad stuff.

1333
00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:13.800
They can see it.

1334
00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:17.000
And there's always going to be a place for the for

1335
00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:18.159
the beautiful and the bespoke.

1336
00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:18.719
And it's always going to

1337
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:19.840
be a place to auto correct.

1338
00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:24.159
And there is now and there has been for a while and

1339
00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:25.559
it's going to continue like that.

1340
00:47:26.199 --> 00:47:28.800
So we're not going to have a producer of a major

1341
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:30.159
feature film or even a small feature

1342
00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:31.559
film doing an auto correct.

1343
00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:32.559
They're always going to want

1344
00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:34.760
to - shove a LUT on it is not new.

1345
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:37.760
And there's not much that AI can do.

1346
00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:41.519
That's not that's going to be any any more or less

1347
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:44.280
touching your world than those things

1348
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:44.800
touch now.

1349
00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:49.000
So you know those things that exist now, LUTs and

1350
00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:50.599
auto correct and filters and things like

1351
00:47:50.599 --> 00:47:50.880
that.

1352
00:47:51.559 --> 00:47:52.880
And how should they really affect your world?

1353
00:47:54.199 --> 00:47:54.960
Probably very little.

1354
00:47:56.320 --> 00:48:00.440
So really there's not a lot else beyond that that

1355
00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:02.599
is going to be used by those same people

1356
00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:03.760
that's going to say make it

1357
00:48:03.760 --> 00:48:05.360
look like Michael Bay film.

1358
00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:06.920
Well, they're doing that today.

1359
00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:08.440
It's just going to be easier for them to do that.

1360
00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:11.159
But yeah, it's true.

1361
00:48:11.159 --> 00:48:12.039
I mean, it's like, you know, I

1362
00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:13.639
want the Michael Bay LUT, right?

1363
00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:14.639
Or they see a commercial.

1364
00:48:14.639 --> 00:48:15.840
Can I get the LUT for that commercial?

1365
00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:17.400
So now they don't even have

1366
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:18.639
to actually how that happens.

1367
00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:19.760
Yeah, exactly.

1368
00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:22.079
They're just going to make it easier for that

1369
00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:23.679
because there's always going to be that stuff

1370
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:24.800
at the low end, always.

1371
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:27.440
So when it comes to that, when tools get better and

1372
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:28.719
they can, I don't know, edit themselves

1373
00:48:28.719 --> 00:48:31.559
a commercial, they're still going to get themselves

1374
00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:33.679
a commercial with just whatever crap they

1375
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:34.840
do today is similar.

1376
00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:36.440
It's the very different

1377
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:37.800
markets of the professional market.

1378
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:40.360
And it just means that a lot of non-professionals

1379
00:48:40.360 --> 00:48:41.719
are going to be able to do stuff and they're

1380
00:48:41.719 --> 00:48:43.320
going to be do see how to do stuff that looks

1381
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:46.039
vaguely okay, that emulates a professional

1382
00:48:46.039 --> 00:48:46.320
look.

1383
00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:48.519
But the audiences can tell we can always tell.

1384
00:48:49.159 --> 00:48:51.559
And there is going to be, I

1385
00:48:51.559 --> 00:48:53.800
think I've said this for a long time.

1386
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:56.880
I think that the audiences, especially when these

1387
00:48:56.880 --> 00:48:58.800
technologies start to impact people,

1388
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:02.440
the middle class, everyday people, they're going to

1389
00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:04.159
start also seeing the value in the

1390
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:05.159
handmade stuff.

1391
00:49:05.880 --> 00:49:07.719
We're going to stay going to start seeing because

1392
00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:09.039
it's the same as what happened when

1393
00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:12.480
when people were able to stream media for free.

1394
00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:17.039
Suddenly, suddenly there was a difference between

1395
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:18.360
the stuff you had to pay for.

1396
00:49:18.519 --> 00:49:20.039
There was a bigger value on the stuff you had to

1397
00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:21.519
pay for than the stuff you get for

1398
00:49:21.519 --> 00:49:21.719
free.

1399
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:26.079
So as people start seeing that there is less value

1400
00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:29.079
in stuff that is generated by AI

1401
00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:31.599
because they can just do it for free, you're going

1402
00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:33.199
to see that there's more value on the

1403
00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:34.320
stuff that is generated by

1404
00:49:34.320 --> 00:49:36.559
people and that is very human done.

1405
00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:39.039
I've predicted for a long time, I think there'll be

1406
00:49:39.039 --> 00:49:42.159
a rise in this bespoke aesthetic and

1407
00:49:42.199 --> 00:49:44.360
bespoke value on things that are bespoke.

1408
00:49:44.360 --> 00:49:46.480
I think there'll be additional value placed on

1409
00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:49.280
things for people where people feel like

1410
00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:51.280
there's something that reminds them of a time when

1411
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:52.519
everything was done by hand.

1412
00:49:53.639 --> 00:49:54.800
We don't know what that's going to look like, but

1413
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:55.960
there's probably going to be a version

1414
00:49:55.960 --> 00:49:57.840
of the newspaper, the radio.

1415
00:49:57.840 --> 00:49:59.079
I think we see podcasts reminds

1416
00:49:59.079 --> 00:50:00.360
people of listening to the radio.

1417
00:50:01.039 --> 00:50:02.519
I think there's going to be versions of these

1418
00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:04.360
things that people put value on and pay for

1419
00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:07.559
because they stop putting value on the things that

1420
00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:09.239
they perceive as having no value because

1421
00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:10.119
it's created by a computer.

1422
00:50:11.800 --> 00:50:13.880
When all commercials start looking the same because

1423
00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:16.599
they're all computer generated, people

1424
00:50:16.599 --> 00:50:18.119
are going to go, "Well, that's kind of dumb and we

1425
00:50:18.119 --> 00:50:19.280
know that they did it for free."

1426
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:21.440
They're going to put real value on the stuff that

1427
00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:23.079
looks like it was done by a human.

1428
00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:25.039
So true creativity is going

1429
00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:26.119
to start having greater value.

1430
00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:28.039
In the same way as people are starting to see that

1431
00:50:28.039 --> 00:50:29.159
there's greater value in the human

1432
00:50:29.159 --> 00:50:31.800
touch in things like healthcare and childcare and

1433
00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:33.639
schooling and teaching and all of those

1434
00:50:33.639 --> 00:50:35.559
things, I think it's going to happen the same in

1435
00:50:35.559 --> 00:50:36.639
creative and the creative arts.

1436
00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:40.400
The audiences are going to start demanding the

1437
00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:42.039
stuff that is more creative and not looking

1438
00:50:42.039 --> 00:50:43.119
the same as everything else.

1439
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:45.960
The weird, which is why we're here.

1440
00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:48.920
We love it because we're all a bit weird, but I

1441
00:50:48.920 --> 00:50:50.599
think the weird stuff is what really

1442
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:53.400
shows that it's done by a human and not by a

1443
00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:55.360
computer because it's not the same as everything

1444
00:50:55.400 --> 00:50:55.880
else.

1445
00:50:55.880 --> 00:50:57.760
You can already see it even in the box office.

1446
00:50:58.679 --> 00:51:00.679
The Tent Poles are starting to get less empty.

1447
00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:01.800
They're called superhero fatigue.

1448
00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:05.320
What that really means is that it sounds to feel a

1449
00:51:05.320 --> 00:51:06.280
bit the same because people aren't

1450
00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:10.480
taking risks in terms of what we're starting to see

1451
00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:11.880
is that people are really paying money

1452
00:51:11.880 --> 00:51:13.559
to go to the movies to see something weird.

1453
00:51:14.440 --> 00:51:15.159
Those are the movies.

1454
00:51:15.159 --> 00:51:16.519
Yeah, something they weren't expecting.

1455
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:19.079
They want to be surprised.

1456
00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:22.320
Those are the things that are getting the Oscars.

1457
00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:23.840
That's what's getting the Oscars now.

1458
00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:29.559
I also think with the rise of machine learning and

1459
00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:31.039
machine learning technology, a couple

1460
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:31.400
of things.

1461
00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:35.880
One is I think what we're running into is that the

1462
00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:38.440
easy 80% in terms of what machine

1463
00:51:38.440 --> 00:51:40.280
learning can accomplish has been accomplished.

1464
00:51:41.320 --> 00:51:44.000
Now we're at that top 20% where we want to take it

1465
00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:45.559
to that next level where we really

1466
00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:48.400
want it to do actual work that

1467
00:51:48.400 --> 00:51:50.280
replicates what a human would do.

1468
00:51:52.639 --> 00:51:53.840
That's the 20-year challenge.

1469
00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:55.719
It's like all of a sudden what looked like it was

1470
00:51:55.719 --> 00:51:58.119
two years away is forever two years

1471
00:51:58.159 --> 00:52:01.039
away for the next 20 years because every percentage

1472
00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:02.960
incremental improvement takes

1473
00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:07.199
way more resources, way more effort to get there.

1474
00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:10.280
What I'm observing is really

1475
00:52:10.280 --> 00:52:12.239
happening in terms of some of those advances.

1476
00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:14.119
I don't think colorists are going

1477
00:52:14.119 --> 00:52:15.280
to be that impacted, to be honest.

1478
00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:16.679
I think you guys are pretty fine.

1479
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:18.880
I think the visual effects industry is where

1480
00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:22.239
there's a lot of opportunity for AI machine

1481
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:23.119
learning to contribute.

1482
00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:24.440
It already is.

1483
00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:25.199
It already has been.

1484
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:26.960
They're also big adopters of technology.

1485
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:32.800
What I'm observing is that where that stuff is

1486
00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:35.199
actually being focused in terms of research

1487
00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:37.920
and tool development is that it's actually not

1488
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:39.360
replacing the artists in Hollywood.

1489
00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:41.159
It's replacing the artists in the sweatshops.

1490
00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:45.719
We all know, I'm very honest and very transparent

1491
00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:47.800
about this, but I think we all know the unspoken

1492
00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:50.320
secret about visual effects is that a large portion

1493
00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:52.559
of visual effects work is done in

1494
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:53.239
sweatshops.

1495
00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:56.159
It's done in third world countries in actual

1496
00:52:56.159 --> 00:52:58.000
literal sweatshops and sweatshop labor.

1497
00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:00.679
I think there's a really interesting moral

1498
00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:01.960
discussion to be had and there's probably

1499
00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:03.320
another insight at some point

1500
00:53:03.320 --> 00:53:06.920
around what is the real moral choice?

1501
00:53:07.159 --> 00:53:08.800
Is it keeping people in sweatshops

1502
00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:11.480
or is it displacing them with AI?

1503
00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:15.440
Right now it's both because AI is the joke in the

1504
00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:17.519
AI community is that it stands for

1505
00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:21.320
Absent Indians because it's also generally done.

1506
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:24.320
I haven't heard that.

1507
00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:27.800
Mechanical Turks, most of AI is actually a bit of a

1508
00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:30.800
smokescreen anyway, but as it gets

1509
00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:33.159
better, it stops being so much that and it is going

1510
00:53:33.159 --> 00:53:34.480
to displace sweatshop labor.

1511
00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:36.679
I think there's something really interesting in

1512
00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:39.199
terms of talking about that and understanding

1513
00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:41.480
the economics and the morals of that.

1514
00:53:42.559 --> 00:53:45.199
That's really where our industry is

1515
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:46.719
going to be the most impacted by AI.

1516
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:48.920
The jobs that are going to be impacted by AI are

1517
00:53:48.920 --> 00:53:50.320
the sweatshop workers in third world

1518
00:53:50.360 --> 00:53:52.559
countries that are doing a lot of this work for us.

1519
00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:54.280
I think it was in a

1520
00:53:54.280 --> 00:53:55.840
discussion with Jamie this week.

1521
00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:59.320
I think Jamie and I chatted earlier this week and I

1522
00:53:59.320 --> 00:54:00.679
think Jamie, you were the one who introduced

1523
00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:03.920
me to Strata, which is Michael

1524
00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:06.679
Cione's new endeavor that he's working on.

1525
00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:09.079
I took a quick look at their YouTube channel.

1526
00:54:09.079 --> 00:54:10.519
I took a quick look at their product.

1527
00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:11.679
It's a machine learning product.

1528
00:54:12.639 --> 00:54:14.920
It was really interesting because I came to the

1529
00:54:14.920 --> 00:54:17.159
conclusion they seem to be focusing the

1530
00:54:17.159 --> 00:54:23.159
product on multi-cam productions that are

1531
00:54:23.159 --> 00:54:26.840
generating thousands of hours of footage where

1532
00:54:27.280 --> 00:54:29.719
the problem is it overwhelms humans.

1533
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:33.519
Humans literally can't get on top of all the data.

1534
00:54:33.519 --> 00:54:36.519
You just can't hire enough interns to watch

1535
00:54:36.519 --> 00:54:38.360
everything, to tag everything, to make it

1536
00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:41.239
usable for a story editor to

1537
00:54:41.239 --> 00:54:42.800
come in and start finding stuff.

1538
00:54:42.800 --> 00:54:44.679
Then the video editors start looking for the right

1539
00:54:44.679 --> 00:54:46.320
B-rolls and coverage and all that stuff.

1540
00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:50.960
The machine learning in that instance seems to be

1541
00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:52.360
from the public side that I could see

1542
00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:55.519
on their YouTube channel where there's overwhelm.

1543
00:54:56.039 --> 00:54:59.039
That's another good place for these types of tools.

1544
00:54:59.679 --> 00:55:03.800
Although, I got to say, I wouldn't mind some AI

1545
00:55:03.800 --> 00:55:06.159
normalization and maybe some AI shot matching.

1546
00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:10.559
That stuff exists as well.

1547
00:55:10.920 --> 00:55:11.519
But is it good?

1548
00:55:11.800 --> 00:55:12.119
I don't know.

1549
00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:14.199
Tony, jump right in here.

1550
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:17.079
I just want to add one thing that I

1551
00:55:17.079 --> 00:55:18.920
learned early in my freelance career.

1552
00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:24.000
I think this may apply to those working at boutique

1553
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:25.639
facilities or your owner-operator and

1554
00:55:25.639 --> 00:55:27.360
to some extent to your working

1555
00:55:27.360 --> 00:55:28.360
at a Company 3 or whatever.

1556
00:55:29.039 --> 00:55:31.280
I think early on when I learned when I was working

1557
00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:33.280
as an online editor back in the 90s

1558
00:55:33.480 --> 00:55:34.599
is when I would ask the client,

1559
00:55:34.599 --> 00:55:35.599
"Why do you want to work with me?"

1560
00:55:36.079 --> 00:55:40.039
The client told me, "Well, 30% of what you bring to

1561
00:55:40.039 --> 00:55:41.519
the table is your technical execution.

1562
00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:42.719
How fast are you?

1563
00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:44.320
How quick can you get this job done?"

1564
00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:46.400
But 70% is personality.

1565
00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:53.320
The reason I wanted to work with me over the senior

1566
00:55:53.320 --> 00:55:55.960
day editor was because he was a little

1567
00:55:55.960 --> 00:55:56.920
anal and he wouldn't want to

1568
00:55:56.920 --> 00:55:58.840
put in over time at five o'clock.

1569
00:55:58.840 --> 00:55:59.840
He's like, "I'm out of here."

1570
00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:02.599
I was accommodating to

1571
00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:03.840
say, "I love working with you.

1572
00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:06.119
I want to invest in this project."

1573
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:08.840
Now, working as a colorist.

1574
00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:13.280
When I play down the shows that I work on, I take

1575
00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:15.679
note of the names of the people so

1576
00:56:15.679 --> 00:56:18.440
that when I refer to them, instead of saying, "Oh,

1577
00:56:18.440 --> 00:56:20.119
you want to go to the shot of the person

1578
00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:21.480
wearing that funky tie?

1579
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:21.719
No.

1580
00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:23.719
You want to go to Joe blah, blah, blah."

1581
00:56:24.639 --> 00:56:25.000
That's cool.

1582
00:56:25.599 --> 00:56:25.960
That's cool.

1583
00:56:26.360 --> 00:56:29.400
It shows to the client that I invested the project

1584
00:56:29.400 --> 00:56:31.880
that I actually know the characters

1585
00:56:31.960 --> 00:56:34.119
who are in whatever my documentary

1586
00:56:34.119 --> 00:56:35.400
feature from or whatever it might be.

1587
00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:38.920
But that too, I think is very important because in

1588
00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:40.800
the end, when you look at what does a client

1589
00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:42.400
want to work with you, the question you got to ask

1590
00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:44.559
is, "Well, what is the value added

1591
00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:45.559
we bring to the client?

1592
00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:48.719
Is it a combination of your personality, your

1593
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:50.199
technical and creative skills?

1594
00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:53.880
And also, is it a willingness to accommodate their

1595
00:56:53.880 --> 00:56:55.800
own creative and technical needs?"

1596
00:56:56.800 --> 00:56:58.679
The best comment I got from a client recently is

1597
00:56:58.679 --> 00:57:01.880
they wrote and said, "Tony was very accommodating.

1598
00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:04.800
He was more than willing to do the little things

1599
00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:06.039
that went out of his way."

1600
00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:08.559
Part of it was because they wanted me to re-edit

1601
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:10.199
some of the stuff in the timeline.

1602
00:57:10.199 --> 00:57:11.199
And usually, if the colorist, it's

1603
00:57:11.199 --> 00:57:12.960
like, "No, the picture is locked.

1604
00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:14.159
I can't do that."

1605
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:16.800
But I'm like, "It's no big deal."

1606
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:17.440
And they even said to me,

1607
00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:18.360
"You can do that resolve."

1608
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:20.079
I said, "Oh, yeah, it's got a little edit page and

1609
00:57:20.079 --> 00:57:21.280
I can go in there and change stuff

1610
00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:21.599
around."

1611
00:57:21.599 --> 00:57:23.639
And the way I look at it, it's like maybe someone

1612
00:57:23.639 --> 00:57:24.920
else in a higher position would have

1613
00:57:24.920 --> 00:57:26.920
said, "Nope, that's getting hit back to the

1614
00:57:26.920 --> 00:57:29.360
colorist assistant or the conforme artist

1615
00:57:29.360 --> 00:57:29.800
or whatever."

1616
00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:32.239
And the way I look at it is, "I'm here right now.

1617
00:57:32.599 --> 00:57:34.760
I have the God-given skill sets to do this.

1618
00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:36.679
Why would I not do it?"

1619
00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:38.840
But when she...

1620
00:57:38.840 --> 00:57:41.000
I think, Tony, what you're

1621
00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:42.840
describing is I like to call it a partnership.

1622
00:57:42.840 --> 00:57:46.960
I think some people see it as a relationship of

1623
00:57:46.960 --> 00:57:50.079
power and that you are a servant or you

1624
00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:53.559
are a master, essentially, to your client.

1625
00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:55.639
And you can be one of either or both.

1626
00:57:56.760 --> 00:57:58.559
But rather, I think the best...

1627
00:57:58.559 --> 00:58:00.119
The people who build the best relationships and

1628
00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:01.400
have the most success in building those

1629
00:58:01.400 --> 00:58:02.400
relationships are those who

1630
00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:03.280
treat it as a partnership.

1631
00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:07.119
And if you truly treat it as a partnership and you

1632
00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:09.079
go in there and set those expectations

1633
00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:11.199
and lay it that way, that this is a partnership

1634
00:58:11.199 --> 00:58:13.679
between artists and artists, you end up just

1635
00:58:13.800 --> 00:58:17.079
getting so much amazing feedback and you end up

1636
00:58:17.079 --> 00:58:19.639
building those kind of relationships that

1637
00:58:19.639 --> 00:58:22.079
you can help each other's

1638
00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:23.679
careers grow, which is really cool.

1639
00:58:24.559 --> 00:58:25.159
Exactly.

1640
00:58:25.159 --> 00:58:25.920
And I think...

1641
00:58:27.320 --> 00:58:27.480
Yeah.

1642
00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:30.039
And Tony, I'm going to wrap us up here because we

1643
00:58:30.039 --> 00:58:34.440
are at our hour and Katie is on vacation.

1644
00:58:34.719 --> 00:58:35.599
This is a perfect place to

1645
00:58:35.599 --> 00:58:38.159
wrap up with Katie on vacation.

1646
00:58:38.360 --> 00:58:39.360
So Katie, I know it's chilly

1647
00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:41.320
there, so kick on that fireplace.

1648
00:58:42.280 --> 00:58:42.519
Yes.

1649
00:58:42.719 --> 00:58:45.440
Warm up your hands and thank you

1650
00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:47.800
very much for carving time out for us.

1651
00:58:48.440 --> 00:58:50.760
I ask all of you one thing, please.

1652
00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:51.719
Please, if you have not

1653
00:58:51.719 --> 00:58:53.199
taken the survey, take it, Pat.

1654
00:58:54.199 --> 00:58:54.719
Yes.

1655
00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:57.280
And please do me one favor and make sure that the

1656
00:58:57.280 --> 00:58:58.360
important thing is we make sure people

1657
00:58:58.360 --> 00:58:59.039
know about it.

1658
00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:02.199
So please, encourage your

1659
00:59:02.199 --> 00:59:03.880
networks, your friends, your colleagues.

1660
00:59:04.840 --> 00:59:05.800
Anybody who is in

1661
00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:10.079
post-production should be taking the survey.

1662
00:59:10.079 --> 00:59:10.760
It's pretty quick.

1663
00:59:11.239 --> 00:59:15.480
Every year there are bonus questions that are

1664
00:59:15.480 --> 00:59:18.400
relevant to what is happening and what

1665
00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:19.599
is important to people this year.

1666
00:59:20.039 --> 00:59:21.920
And this year is no different.

1667
00:59:21.960 --> 00:59:25.079
We have new bonus question for this year based on

1668
00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:26.679
some of the big conversations.

1669
00:59:26.920 --> 00:59:28.719
I like to keep it a secret, so it makes you go out

1670
00:59:28.719 --> 00:59:30.039
there and actually do the survey.

1671
00:59:31.559 --> 00:59:33.559
Things that are really in the

1672
00:59:33.559 --> 00:59:35.039
conversation, they're in every conversation.

1673
00:59:35.519 --> 00:59:38.199
And those things we measure in the bonus questions.

1674
00:59:38.199 --> 00:59:39.760
I think that's interesting because people want to

1675
00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:40.960
know what everybody else thinks.

1676
00:59:41.679 --> 00:59:43.000
And that's really what this is.

1677
00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:44.480
This is a community building exercise.

1678
00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:45.880
This is making our industry a better

1679
00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:47.800
place and it takes you two minutes.

1680
00:59:48.039 --> 00:59:49.760
You can contribute as well.

1681
00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:51.400
So I put the link up in the chat.

1682
00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:54.280
Postproductiondata.com is where you'll get all of

1683
00:59:54.280 --> 00:59:56.039
the information from every other year,

1684
00:59:56.039 --> 00:59:59.360
every report, and the link to the survey is there.

1685
00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:01.159
You can click right through and take the survey and

1686
01:00:01.159 --> 01:00:02.639
then explore some of the other data.

1687
01:00:05.360 --> 01:00:06.119
Yeah, absolutely.

1688
01:00:06.559 --> 01:00:06.800
100%.

1689
01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:08.920
We'll have the links on the website.

1690
01:00:09.280 --> 01:00:12.599
Mixing Light will be sending out emails to its email

1691
01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:14.400
database reminding people to do this.

1692
01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:16.440
And I'll probably take a snippet of this

1693
01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:18.039
conversation and maybe do

1694
01:00:18.039 --> 01:00:19.760
MixiLite's first YouTube short.

1695
01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:20.880
Cool.

1696
01:00:21.559 --> 01:00:22.440
Talking specifically about

1697
01:00:22.440 --> 01:00:24.079
this and see what happens on that.

1698
01:00:24.559 --> 01:00:25.960
So who knows, you know,

1699
01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:27.400
old dog learning new tricks.

1700
01:00:28.639 --> 01:00:29.639
So thank you, Katie.

1701
01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:33.639
Thank you, Jamie and Tony and

1702
01:00:33.639 --> 01:00:35.559
everyone else in the chat today.

1703
01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:37.159
Thank you for coming out on a Sunday.

1704
01:00:37.760 --> 01:00:40.880
This is Patrick Inhofer from MixingLight.com and we

1705
01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:43.280
will see you in our next Office Hours Live.