[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:15] Dan: Lovely to see you pier. And today we're talking about place, the importance of place, and, um, we've, we may have mentioned a couple of times your adventures of moving to country Australia. So, um, you've probably got a few things to share about the joys of, of place and, and how it combines with work. I'm imagining.

[00:00:33] Pia: Yes, it's rich. It's definitely, um, rich and unusual and I think you sort of, you know, have phone will travel as I I said before, I've got a good internet connection, so that's the most important bit. And um, so I was taking a call the other day on the, on the hammock. I was watching my. My little lad swim in our creek on a be very hot, been about 35 degrees.

[00:00:55] And so I was having a really, and I was actually having a business call and it was going awfully well, and I thought I'd just step off the hammock and underneath me was a snake. and it's because everything is waking up, you see? So you, you gotta be a little bit, and we had this moment where there's me holding the phone going, I dunno what, which one that is, whether that's kill you because the li when they're young snakes don't know when to stop injecting their venom and when they're older, they learn some kind of regulation around there.

[00:01:27] Dan: Oh, really? Oh, 

[00:01:28] Pia: do. This is what I've discovered. And so this one was, I could tell was young, so I was sort of backing off talking to

[00:01:35] Dan: it, it would empty itself into you. You, you, you threw Its fangs. Yeah. Great, great,

[00:01:41] Pia: And then, you know, and then I went to the bathroom as you do, and then I discovered a spider in there that was the size of a dinner plate. It was,

[00:01:48] Dan: Oh my word. 

[00:01:49] Pia: it was so big. It almost opened the door to let me in. 

[00:01:52] Dan: ah, I, I, I dare distinctly remember when we lived in Australia having one that was so large, we had, we didn't, we couldn't get it under a container. We had to shoe it out the door, open the door, and then shoot like it, like it was a, like, it was cattle or something. Absolutely mad. But 

[00:02:08] Pia: yeah. Heard it. 

[00:02:08] Dan: I'm, yeah, exactly, exactly. I'm at the other end. We are in, um, yes, I'm in my man cave and um, which is lovely, but, um, it is, it's, we're having a cold now. It's gonna be minus six I think. Uh, it's center grade, which is, um, I dunno, it's in the twenties, isn't it? I think Fahrenheit. Cold. Cold. And of course, because of the joy of Putin, our fuel bills are absolutely rocketing. So we are, we're watching the smart meter and trying to tune everything.

[00:02:34] But, uh, but I do think we, it's, it's, it's inter, I know you've done a lot with your workspace there, um, and, uh, I've done a lot here and it's, it's definitely a thing that needs thinking about. And I'm fascinated by this episode because we've spent so much time, this series, quite rightly, looking at the move to hybrid and seeing how we can connect remotely. But I think this conversation with Doug Shapiro, who's a podcaster and a researcher in the impact of place, um, really took us into a place where we are trying to think about place.

[00:03:07] You know, it's, it is not, you know, place will remain important. and it was, this is a great opportunity to explore at the end of the series, at the end of the season how place will play a role in work in the future. So really looking forward to this conversation. Let's Hoover head over and hear from Doug now. Doug, thank you so much for joining us on the show.

[00:03:31] Doug: Hey, I'm thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:03:33] Dan: It's great to see you and just to keep you on your toes. Um, we'll start as we always do with the Conversation Starter card game. So I'm gonna choose a card at random. Uh, I've given them a bit of a shuffle. Here we go. Oh dear. The, um, the, the trait I most deplore in myself is.

[00:03:51] Pia: Deplore,

[00:03:53] Dan: Deplore is a strong word. Strong word.

[00:03:56] Doug: I would say I lose patience at times.

[00:04:00] Dan: Oh, okay. Tell us a bit about that. What, what, uh, what does that look like? When does that happen?

[00:04:05] Pia: This is the therapy section

[00:04:07] Dan: Yeah.

[00:04:08] Doug: yeah. You know?

[00:04:09] Pia: more about that.

[00:04:10] Doug: Sometimes I don't need to, uh, try to fix something or try to take action right away. I just need to let things stew a little bit and I'm, I generally like to quickly take action. yeah, that, that I would say has gotten me into trouble.

[00:04:27] Dan: it's quite an interesting balance. I always think between, between that, you know, we we're supposed to take action. It's a good thing, isn't it? And also sometimes we take action too much and go and drive for, yeah. Or another little tension we have to deal with in our daily lives. 

[00:04:42] Doug: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes the problems just go away. I think, uh, if you, if you just. People think about them or let yourself think about them. And I, I, you know, I'm saying this as if I do that. No, I mean, I I'm always trying to fix something 

[00:04:57] Dan: You have academic interest in not doing things

[00:05:01] Doug: yeah. Yeah. That's what I would say. But yeah, I, I, I just need to be more patient sometimes.

[00:05:07] Pia: We sometimes have a bit of a, um, you know, one, two night sleep rule in our house. So if we've got something that we're chewing over, and trying to make a decision about, we actually say, well, we've just gotta sleep on it. And then, and then you ask the same question, almost the first thing when you wake up, what do you think about it now? And then do it again in 24 hours? It's a really interesting process cuz you do see it, you get distant from it, which is a better way of making a decision rather than in it, trying to fix it, stab it, or get rid of it, or anything that you're trying to do with that decision. You've got an emotional charge. It's probably best to give it if you can get some distance.

[00:05:49] Doug: I like that. Yeah. Quite literally sleep. Sleep on it. Yeah.

[00:05:52] Dan: Doug's smiling and he's agreeing and nodding, but there's no way he's gonna do it from what he just said.

[00:05:57] Doug: No, . No, it's not gonna happen.

[00:05:58] Pia: No. Oh, great. Well, that was a good

[00:06:00] Dan: it's very polite, very polite.

[00:06:02] Pia: Therapy

[00:06:03] Doug: Can we move on already? 

[00:06:04] Pia: then we. 

[00:06:05] Dan: We move on, move on. 

[00:06:06] Pia: So Doug, so the, so Doug, the fix it. Come on. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Take us into your world. just, just give us the background. Tell us who you are.

[00:06:17] Doug: Sure, sure. So, uh, I've been in the kind of workplace office furniture world for almost 18 years now. Um, I skipped over, I mean, the important stuff, you know, family man. Um, I've got three wonderful kids. Got all that stuff, but I have, um, I've spent my career really focused on place and a lot of my time early on was on developing products for workplace products, for healthcare environments, things like that. Um, and as you know, when you design something, you spend more time, uh, you spend a lot of time understanding the context for what you're designing. I became way more interested in the context than the actual product. And so that kind of led me into the role I am now or the role I have now, which is, you know, head, you know, into research and insights and now hosting a podcast that I call, Imagine a Place where I explore place in its entirety, whether it's workplace, home, uh, healthcare environments, things like that. Um, senior living spaces, all kinds of places. Uh, the role of place in our lives is what I explore through the Imagine Place Podcast.

[00:07:25] Dan: Fantastic. So tell us a bit about those insights, researching. What sort of insights do you gather? 

[00:07:29] Doug: you know, a lot of it is. Is qualitative. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of tremendous insight in our industry. When I say our industry, the industry of architecture and design,

[00:07:40] where we have done a great job, I think, of gathering insights, understanding how environments affect our bodies, understanding the science behind it. What we haven't done a great job is, um, giving you, assigning a value to that. And so as a whole, I think the industry of interior design has been undervalued, um, and underrepresented in major conversations around people and around the future of work.

[00:08:13] And so, um, part of my mission is to elevate how place is viewed and the impact of place on people. And so that's, um, that is what the research centers around. But, uh, I stray out of that and I stray into work and understanding the future of work and how work gets done, how culture happens at the workplace, and, uh, all of that goes on to then inform how we shape those spaces to support that.

[00:08:41] Dan: So Doug, we've spent a lot of this season and actually the previous seasons where, you know, really, We Not Me uh, born in Covid, I think basically. And so we spent a lot of time talking about how humans connect, can connect remotely, trying to build this human connection. is, this is a fantastic opportunity to talk about place, you know, and now work isn't a place anymore, but it is sometimes, isn't it?

[00:09:04] So tell, talk to us about your view on the future of work. What does, what does that look like, and what is the role of place in this, in this, even though we seem to be heading more in the other direction?

[00:09:16] Doug: So place. I'm gonna compare it to that side of broccoli. when you're a kid, okay? You know, you're forced to eat your broccoli. And then what happens is, guess what? You end up hating broccoli because you've been forced to eat it your whole life. And the reality is broccoli's good for you and it tastes great, right? 

[00:09:39] Dan: It's nice. 

[00:09:39] Doug: Yes. Um, and it's gotten a bad reputation, and I think that's a little bit of what's happened with work. And with place is that place was not a choice. Just like that broccoli for so long, um, place the office, the workplace needs a little bit of a rebrand, um, to where it can be something great. It can be a great tool in your toolkit of how you get your work done. And it can be also great and enjoyable and fun. It doesn't have to be a dreary place that you drag yourself into every day.

[00:10:17] And so I even look back and I wonder if, if place was a choice, if it wasn't a, if it wasn't something you had to do every day Monday through Friday, but it instead was a choice for the last decade, would we feel differently about it now than we do? And would we use it more than we do? Or then what, what we're projecting going forward? And I actually think it's true. I think place should have always been just one of many tools that we had in our toolkit to do our best work. And so, you know what it's moving towards, and I think this is, this is probably what you're seeing or understanding is, you know, supporting community, I mean that is, uh, that's what we're seeing, uh, as kind of the future of place is moving in that direction.

[00:11:08] Pia: Because I mean, it's, it's an interesting one, isn't it, Doug? Because our place of work has been for many people, the spare bedroom, that that's where you know that they've not for a long period of time, they've been working at home and they've made do, they've brought the office, whatever it was to their home, and that's, that's where they're, and then trying to get them to want to feel inspired to come back must be a challenge, I think for many, many organizations when quite frankly, they're, you know, for, for many offices it's strip lighting, and sort of formations of desks and sometimes windowless, you know, poor lit it. It's not very, it's not very compelling, is it really?

[00:11:55] Doug: It's not, and just like that broccoli, it all depends on how you prepare it. I mean, if I boiled it and stuck it on a plate, well that's the fluorescent lighting and the cubicles and everything that you're seeing. Um, you know, there's a lot of ways to prepare a space to be healthy, to inspire creativity. Um, and those, you know, the other thing is at home, just my advice is if you are, if you, if you are working at home, and I'm straying into a little bit of a different space, but you know, you have to take the time to, to build sunlight into your day, to build movement into your day. There's things that are inherent in great office design that, that are not in our homes. Uh, in some cases, if you're in that basement bedroom or whatever it might be.

[00:12:42] But I do think, yeah, I mean place, it's no longer acceptable to have, you know, uh, a sea of cubicles and, uh, you know, an environment that doesn't support social activity. I mean, if the, the social activity is so important and building trust with your colleagues. If, if that's the only thing you did when you, when you went into a workplace is. Had good social time together and, you know, think creatively and, and got into that space and you did that once a week, that would be worth it because that is so important too.

[00:13:16] Um, I've, I've heard a great quote that, that the, that onsite is the new offsite to where you.

[00:13:23] Pia: Well, yeah, that, that's great. And I think we, we, we've, we've talked a little bit about that, that it has to be intentional and for a purpose, and I think that's what's shifted. It's not just a subconscious I go to work to work, it's If I go to work and I'm interact on a face-to-face, it's for a reason and a good reason to, to do that.

[00:13:50] So what, what are you seeing in terms of design? What, what's, what's emerging in as themes that, that will really attract and bring people back to, to work and, and in a way that, as we say is intentional and innovative.

[00:14:05] Doug: I think one of the things we, when we, when we went home, uh, when we were, when we were sent home, whatever you wanna say, uh, we, we all. Realized or, or witnessed how great of of hackers we are. You know, we made it work for ourselves, you know, and we were, you know, in our own homes, of course, we're empowered to build the environment that works for us. So what I do think is we need to bring that same mentality back into the workplace, create a space that is less precious, that is not that formal dining room, you know, but it's a space that empowers people. To create environments on the fly, whether it be teaming environments or personal environments. So I think the idea of it being less precious is important. 

[00:14:52] I also think that we're, we're seeing people for everything that they are now, and you're seeing HR transition, you're seeing, um, other functions of a business transition besides just the design of the space, but the design of the space also is in the same movement where we're understanding that not everybody thinks the same. Not everybody's brain is wired the same. Some people require seclusion to do their best work, right? They are hypersensitive. And then you have people that are hyposensitive, and maybe they need activity to do their best work.

[00:15:29] So it's kind of peanut butter spread of an office that has all the same colors and all the same types of spaces. That's going away too. And we're seeing a lot more of an, an eclectic mix of high energy spaces, spaces that can create peace and tranquility. Um, and then a mix of color. So I would say within a theme, you can have a lot of variation. You can still have a theme that coordinates, but you can have that variation too. So 

[00:15:58] Dan: that's, really cool, Doug. So when you say less precious, do, are you talk Yeah. Dive into that a little bit. Do you mean something that is less static? Something that people can own more change to their shaped. Is that when you, is that what you mean? That it's, that it's, and therefore that people can, can do it to find these spaces for themselves as individuals or as groups to get the most out of it. Is that. Is that what you mean?

[00:16:21] Doug: That's exactly what I mean. And I think the, the products in that space, the nature of that space has to communicate to those people in it, move me, use me, you know? Um, they can't, it can't look like something they're not supposed to touch or they're not supposed to move. And so I think that that is changing the nature of, of the products that we're seeing in spaces.

[00:16:41] Um, I think there's just a general movement towards creativity that is going to push the workforce in a new direction. Not just our workforce, but our education systems. Everything. Um, artificial intelligence, we know this is, is moving up. And, uh, you know, some of the day-to-day activities that you do in your job will transition into more creative activities over time. And if you think about a space that supports creativity, that's very different than the typical boardroom that you see in an office. 

[00:17:17] Dan: I, I have to say this cuz as I hear you, for some reason the image that came to my mind was, was a workspace, which is the exact opposite. Pia and I have done a lot of work with a very big IT company in San Jose in California. They'll remain nameless 

[00:17:33] Pia: I was thinking exactly. Same.

[00:17:36] Dan: I remember going into one of these buildings and they have loads of these buildings around the place. And a huge floor. I mean, it was the size of, you know, half of England or something, or a cube, a cube farm with beige walls and beige cubes. Beige. And quite dark. And then the odd person there. And people would've driven down 101 for probably an hour and a half to get to this place or sit in a cube to then go home in the in the evening.

[00:18:04] And it just really made me realize, obviously that's, now looks, I didn't realize how bad it was at the time. It's terrible. But the thing I realize listening to you is we've had an explosion of the recognition of us as individuals, haven't we? You know, that sort of tayloristic come in and sit in the same cube as an next person. And I think that's happened in the last few years of Covid even, that we are now really recognized as individuals and our spaces, and the way work has to suit that. And I think, I think that's been a huge shift since then. And I would probably, looking at that, see that festival of Beige now, I'd probably think that, but I didn't then.

[00:18:42] Doug: Yeah, that festival of beige.

[00:18:44] Pia: at that festival of age, I, I remember thinking something is not right, that you've got about a 10% occupancy of the festival of beige. And that was back, you know, 15 years ago, 10 years ago. And each of those buildings was very imaginatively called a number, building 10, building 52. 

[00:19:11] Dan: careful Pier. Yeah.

[00:19:12] Doug: Yeah. I mean, yeah, , we're giving it away here. I mean, yeah. You're stripping the, the, the, the humanity out of, out of these spaces. Um, for the sake of something that is maybe quote unquote safe or, or even just the, what it means. Let's just answer this question. What does it mean to be professional? and I, I think that's getting.

[00:19:35] Pia: that's changed a lot. 

[00:19:37] Doug: it absolutely has and and I think that spaces and everything will reflect that. I mean, even just like think about the casualization of communication over the past decade. You have CEOs sending text messages for business with emojis on them. You could have never dreamed of that 10 years ago, you know? And now that's everyday. And I think the casual nature of communication is also kind of spilling into our spaces.

[00:20:06] And, you know, there, there could be a, a movement in, in a, in the other direction, but I think we have so far to go in terms of creating spaces that do feel more human, that do support the next generation of work, which will be more creative oriented. Um, and then our, our, but that change has to be reflected into the other systems that we, that we work. I mean, school systems I think, will need to embrace the same sort of change, and that's gonna be very challenging as well. I mean, schools have hardly changed classrooms, you know, in, in the time they've had. 

[00:20:40] Dan: They always say, don't they heard someone say that? If you took a. Uh, doctor from the 19th century and put them in a hospital today, they'd be completely confused. If you took a teacher from the 19th century and put it to today's school, they'd be fine. And and 

[00:20:54] Doug: so true. 

[00:20:55] Dan: it's so true. So yeah, all of that definitely has to change. But I in Doug, you are in the spaces business. What do you see as the future of work in terms of where people work, how people, it looks like there's a real opportunity to, to really change this up, give people spaces, flexibility, but things that are gonna really work for them as individuals and as and as groups. What, where do you see people working and how, what's, what's your mental picture of that?

[00:21:22] Doug: Yeah, I, I think some of it will depend on the nature of the job, um, depend on the culture of the geography. But I, I think place will have a role, um, for certain people and especially people that are doing lots of team oriented work.

[00:21:41] And it also depends on their living circumstances. Sometimes going to a workplace might be the healthiest day of work a person can put in. Uh, maybe they're not engaged in social activities outside of work. Maybe they don't have a church or a ball club or whatever it is, or country club or whatever it is. Maybe work is that person's social time, you know? And to think that you can just live in your basement or in your Guest bedroom all day and then watch Netflix and go to bed is not a healthy lifestyle, right? So having a, you know, I think having a workplace be that access to having a community, I think the word community is absolutely key. So how does place support community?

[00:22:24] I think place also has to be a frictionless experience. Um, I think if we look at like retail, or just look at the cinema. The cinema has gone through this rebrand. You know, people didn't need to go to the movie theater because they could just do, they could pop popcorn at home. I can have a soda and I can watch my movie on my big screen tv, which costs 200 bucks or whatever. But the reality is that the cinema understood how important it was to deliver an experience. And I think that sort of rebrand re-understanding of space is gonna pull into the office where, um, people are gonna think of their offices more in a consumer style mindset. This is now a choice. How do I deliver a frictionless experience, access to better technology, access to healthier foods and healthier lifestyles than they can achieve at home? Um, access to this community. So those are the kinds of things that I think are going to keep place very relevant.

[00:23:30] I think in order to do that too, there's going to have to be a lot of deep listening from workplace executives and designers. They're going to have to have to really, I mean, we're going to have to change a lot. And just like good design, good design takes observation. We haven't had a ton of time to observe people. In new environments and kind of a recreated workplace with new expectations. So I do suspect that no matter what it is we do now we're going to be doing things with the idea that we're experimenting. Uh, and I think that experimental mindset is key to developing the next workplace too. It's not a one and done kind of thing.

[00:24:10] Pia: This obviously involves quite an investment of capital, doesn't it? So, which is, you know, a separate thing. So, and, and certainly I've seen some large well-funded enterprises take this leap, but it's not a, it's not an a small medium enterprise opportunity really because of the cost involved. Do, do you see that as a barrier or do you see that this is gonna be a, something that's across the whole, the whole gamut of businesses and the whole range, irrespective of size?

[00:24:43] Doug: You know, I think there are, there are always things you can do that can send cues to your people that you care about them, you know, and, and that you're going for that experience. And I think the, to me, like the workplace is one of the great ways to show people that you value them, or to show people that you don't, you know, uh, the, the, the beige, uh, carnival. The carnival of beige. There it is, you know, is great. Wait, we were not thinking of you when we did. This is basically what that says. And 

[00:25:19] Dan: did say writ large. Yes.

[00:25:22] Pia: you like beige. 

[00:25:22] Doug: unless you like beige, okay. But, but there is, uh, that I think does not change. And so, and then there are new products out that, that have the sort of flexibility that aren't terribly expensive. So when you're investing in something, invest in things that you can change. So maybe instead of formal drywall, you're creating spaces with more mobile types of furniture that empower the ability to kind of expand or experiment or contract.

[00:25:55] Dan: And Doug, is there any integration with the virtual space? If you sort, if you, I dunno if that's even a decent question, but is there any, any way that we can, that people's different spaces will sort of combine as one, even if you are in a different, different place that you can feel like, I dunno if that's just a df question, but, um, is there any work on that you can feel sort of a bit united because of the similarities of space?

[00:26:20] Doug: No, I, I think there is absolutely an effort in our industry right now to create more equitable spaces for people that are inside of an office and outside of an office. And how can place play a role in delivering, um, an equitable experience so that you know, you're not getting, you know, the, the side of, you know, someone's head and not, you know, a different. So, so technology in place are kind of talking to each other right now to understand camera angles and room layouts. Uh, and that is, that's something that's very, very important to the furniture industry right now and to the designers that are creating spaces.

[00:27:02] Pia: I had the, um, I had the opportunity to work with a, an investment bank here in Australia and they designed a flexible working space, which was one of the first here in Sydney. And with it was, um, the assumption that you could choose the space that you needed to work from, and they had a. Variations of that from a, a, a library to a more, to pods to more formal. Beautiful building. It was absolutely stunning. And what I observed was everyone was ooh, like at a party for the first six months. And they loved the fact that they could, um, have that flexibility. 

[00:27:41] But then slowly the older habits crept in and people started putting their bags on desks and trying to put a couple little photos up and trying to sort of, so it was really interesting for me to observe how we revert sometimes and the human side of things that, that in these spaces we just, we want the creativity, but we also want to find a place for us that feels personalized within it. Um, and I know that this organization did make some quite substantial shifts back to the formalized pods and desks on certain floors. So whereas it had been a hundred percent flexible, it, it became a more of a hybrid model. But I dunno whether you've seen that and, and whether that's something about the, the human behavior.

[00:28:35] Doug: I have. And in fact, there, there was something, and I I've held onto this for, for probably nearly a decade of a quote, um, around place that people form a form a, an emotional attachment to space within three hours. So if you were at an airport, and you were sitting in one seat at your gate for three hours. Let's say your flight's, the flight's delayed, right? And you get up and you leave and you go get a drink of water and you come back and that seat's taken, it doesn't feel good. You 

[00:29:09] Dan: Yeah. You're sitting in 

[00:29:10] Doug: you have Yeah, just in three hours. I mean, we, we, at, at the family dining table, we find ourselves in, in, in the same seats, even though they're not assigned. And there is absolutely a truth to that. And I do think with, with place, if it, if place truly is a choice and you're not coming back in every day, it does alleviate some of that. Because you have a maybe a home base that is your home, okay? If you are what we're just call a resident and you come in every day, I think that person that. Probably needs their own space. But if you're coming in once or twice a week, I think you could, you could, if we do the space right, and the space allows you to customize, you know, the down lighting, the height of the desk, you know the chair, the tools you surround yourself with. If you can, if you can customize those conveniently and quickly, I do think you can, you can get around.

[00:30:16] Dan: It's really interesting and it raises this sort of persistent tension, doesn't it? Between where I, where it's best for me to work and where it's best for us to work. And it's another element of teamwork, isn't it? To say, actually I want to work over here on my own, you know, don't disturb me. But actually we as a team need to get together to do this thing. So that's another balance to push input into this mix, isn't it? That, that the space pulls on us, but our team pulls on us as.

[00:30:45] Doug: I think so, I think there's a new rhythm to work that we need to figure out. And, And, and, that's what I feel like is coming from you here, Dan, is, is that rhythm of, you know, if you are, if you know you have team time that's critical to moving projects forward to making decisions, um, and you ha you can make that a Zoom call at three o'clock on Monday. but you know, you're coming in Tuesday, cancel that Zoom call and do that in person Tuesday. And that's the kind of rhythm of, you know, like team time and focus time that I think we still have to figure out.

[00:31:23] Dan: It's all still a bit piled on top of each other, isn't it? We, we don't, yeah, we don't really have that yet, do we? Now? Vocabulary even. 

[00:31:31] Doug: Yeah.

[00:31:32] there's like kind of a, even the culture around work is, we have to understand the culture around work better. And there was a, there was a quote from a gentleman, what was his name of Darren Murph and he's the head of workplace or head of remote at GitLab. So GitLab is the world's largest all remote company, 1600 employees, no real estate. It's fascinating. And um, he gave some advice on how to culture remotely. The quote that stuck with me was, the implicit needs to become explicit, and I love that. And it was just this little nugget of, you know, be more intentional about culture and be, you know, instead of, instead of, uh, spending time on what you're doing, also spend time on how you're doing it. How, how are we going to work right now? Um, there was another quote around culture. He said, culture is when values create behaviors, and I love that. And so that's also a gut check, right? If you're being, if you're being explicit around how we do our work right now, we know we need team time. We, let's talk about when we need it. Let's be deliberate with it. And if, if that re, if that's reflected in those behaviors, then I think you, you've got something. 

[00:32:56] Pia: Sorry, I'm just gonna pause, I've got the builder has arrived and the dogs are going off.

[00:33:01] Dan: Is just going, 

[00:33:03] Doug: Can we actually, can we talk about dogs for a minute? I, I, I don't mind the dog being in the background because I think it's a good cue. There, there's a gentleman that I, I do some work with. His name is Rex Miller. He hosts a podcast called The Resilience Lab, and he asked us this question. He said, think close your eyes and think of your dog, which you can do if you're listening right now. Close your eyes. Think of your dog. That feeling that you just got besides you Pia right now, because I know your dog is frustrating you, but that feeling you just got is, is a release of serotonin. It is the opposite of stress. And what Rex, what Rex went on to say was that the the every, it's right on, right on 

[00:33:49] Pia: sure that's 

[00:33:50] Dan: that 

[00:33:51] Pia: because I.

[00:33:52] Dan: that's not what Pia's feeling right now. It's okay. Stick, stick, stick with me, Doug. I've got my dog sitting right behind me and, uh, yeah, I'm I, I've got it. She's calm at the moment.

[00:34:02] Doug: Sure. Well, uh, what Rex was saying is, uh, how often do we, we walk into a workplace, okay? The workplace of old. We would walk into that place, that feeling that we had walking into the workplace. It was the opposite of that, it was the opposite of that feeling that your dog gives you that comfort, that relaxation, that you know it's safe here. You know, I have a friend here. Instead, you walk into a place and you feel judgment, you feel tense. The lighting is, you know, it's like, it's a, and so the idea he, he wanted us to, what if a little bit, like what if workplace felt more, you know, gave you the feelings that that dog gives you, and I don't think that's way out of reach. I think we should aspire towards things like that. 

[00:34:54] He actually, he, he cited a statistic and said that more heart attacks over the last 30 years, more heart attacks happened on a Monday than any other day. And that is a reflection of stress. So when you, when you, when you hear people now that are working hybrid that aren't coming into the office Monday, they're not doing that because they're protecting themselves. That's the reality. They're protecting themselves from stress,

[00:35:22] Dan: Wow. That's, yeah. The, there was a, an insurance company, I think it was in the UK that had this advertising, you know, they're trying to differentiate themselves. Then it was be more dog, and, and so I think that's probably the slogan for, uh, for offices of the future, isn't it?

[00:35:37] Doug: Yes. Why not? I mean, you know, the office can listen. The office can provide comfort, a place of welcoming. Um, I think it should do all those things.

[00:35:48] Dan: it's a great goal. It's a great goal. So Doug, um, wrap us up here. So, um, We've covered so much ground, actually, I think we've left a lot of questions hanging because I said I guess that this is all in transition and movement and your research is keeping us tuned into the human needs, um, as all that changes. But what, um, what would you say to people right now, they might be living mostly, they might be totally remote, they might be hybrid, they might be predominantly in the office even. Um, what's your tip for making place work for people at work.

[00:36:23] Doug: I'll tell you what, there's a lot of science around place. I'm actually going to offer a tip that is a little more, maybe selfish and connected to the person. Okay? Uh, not selfish in my regard, but selfish for you as a listener. Um, the way that a, an athlete would understand their body is the way you as an office worker, assuming if you're listening, you are, um, that might be the way you need to understand your mind. And so once you do that, you begin to understand all the inputs. That affect your mind, and whether it's your ability, you know, your, your social connection to others, um, the amount of sunlight you get in your day. And in some cases, the home is a perfect place to get lots of sunlight. In other cases, the office is the perfect place, it just depends. So you have to think of yourself as the corporate athlete. I guess that would be my advice.

[00:37:31] Pia: I, and I've said this before in this podcast, we got sent home in the pandemic and the power of autonomy shifted to the employees. And so therefore, now at the next sort of stage of evolution is what is the best space for me and what is the best space for us and what's gonna optimize? And, and if we've got the flexibility to be able to, not hybrid in a scheduled way, but hybrid in a really, truly effective, inspiring. collaborative and a place where you can do dedicated me time, workspace, you know, which doesn't fry my brain waste time sitting, on a bus or a public transport or driving it in traffic or having to leave really early so I don't see my kids to avoid the traffic. All of those we can take out and that has a direct, impact on me as a person. 

[00:38:30] Doug: Absolutely. There's something to be said for I think digging into yourself, understanding, I mean, even just what time you do your best work. Some people are night owls, some people are larks and they're early morning people. And so take the time to understand, you know, how you do your best work. What are the inputs, um, that keep your mind sharpest? And I think that hopefully will pay off in time back in your day.

[00:38:59] Dan: Which was a freedom we didn't have before. When we think of the festival of beige and the cube farm, not only did you have to sit in that cube, but you had to be there at certain times, which of course, shoved people onto that same interstate at the same time. Every day we, we will look back on this as madness, but I think you've painted a picture of the future that is a little bit less crazy and, uh, full of opportunity for us to, um, yeah, I think really rediscover our own humanity and our connection to, to others and how we best do that. But, uh, it's been a, a really insightful conversation. Thank you, Doug.

[00:39:33] Doug: Thank you. You, you are both a joy to speak with and, uh, it's, it's so much fun. I would love to know how the both of you met. I'm sure that story was covered on a previous episode, but you know, maybe we 

[00:39:44] Pia: We have no idea. I've never met him before. I 

[00:39:45] Dan: just, he's a stranger just up. 

[00:39:47] Pia: I thought Doug's point around the dynamic tension between bringing me to work and bringing us to work and the, how the place shapes that creativity was really interesting. we have become individualized. We were given a choice, well actually we weren't given a choice. We were told to go home , so we don't have a choice. But the balance of some of those decisions about where I work has shifted towards the individual, but there is a need. As we've talked all through this series, of that collective us the we and how does that become intentional. And, and I think a lot more thoughts. Gotta, we, we can't, we can't demand people to come back to festival of beige.

[00:40:39] Dan: That conversation I thought was wonderful because I felt that we were all exploring and I think it's an a sign that we are in a transition phase around this. We have not learned it. As you say, we were sent home. We spent a lot of time this year thinking about where people should work. And to be honest, once again, big corporations have tried to sort of start, started to try to command and control that and say, oh, you know, we sent you home? Well, no, we're now sending you back to the office. That's just, that's just not appropriate now, and I think we need to be a lot more deliberate about that, but also look at the stakeholders. Because we as individuals have needs, but also we have to choose where and how we work with our team and with our customers. So it's actually seeing it and balancing those dimensions, I think, to say, actually, where are we going to go? And then when we've got that place, what is that like to suit those needs as well? 

[00:41:37] It was a really interesting point that we have different ways of working even as individuals, but how do we come together as a collective, um, which is going to require some compromise and some, some really, some real smart thinking.

[00:41:50] Pia: And I think it just reiterates and, and you and I were talking about this earlier, you stand back after you know who we are coming into 2023 and you then realize really what an enormous few years and we are just feeling like the ripples play out from the pandemic, the shift in the way that we work. We've all had an in, an individual experience, in a, in a, in a collective experience. And here we are, you know, having conversations, thinking about the way that we work and where we work and what that means. And then in the design that quite frankly, in beginning of 2019, we never even thought about it.

[00:42:33] Dan: Absolutely, it's a huge transformation, and I think our listeners shouldn't underestimate, um, the impact that has on our, on our, our mindset and the, the amount, you know, the water level has risen it, that we've got a lot on our plates at the moment. Um, and it's worth recognizing. 

[00:42:49] I think talking to Doug, I reflected that, think about that sea, that festival of beige. And I can see though, that cube farm now a huge cube farm, but you know, you realize Wow, okay. In identical cubes, in identical buildings, where, where we all have to be at certain times, so we all get on the motorway at the same time or on the train at the same time. It's, it's just pure, as we've said a few times, it's pure sort of industrial revolution hangover basically. And I think while it's taxing at the moment, the great thing is it's actually, it's liberated the individual to say, you know, we are, we can, we, we have different needs, we should be flexible. The danger, as we say on this show a lot, is that we become individualized and we have to look at the collective, um, as well as our individual needs in order to really flourish and get things done. 

[00:43:46] Pia: And I think that will take more reflection a bit more time. Plenty of conversation. We've got a lot more to chew through and, and the opportunity is really exciting. There is, it, it is a bit of a rebirth, but, but when you're in the middle of it, it just feels a bit messy.

[00:44:05] Dan: Yeah, exactly. It's been forced on us, but it's a, it's a huge, I, I think, you know, a not even once in a generation, I think we're in a once every few hundred years shift now, and it's, it's really exciting, bringing the humanity back to work. And I hope we can now start to work out how to bring ourselves back together, which we will be talking about in, in series since season five of We Not Me, because it's the final. Episode of season four. I can't believe it. We are, um, cracking along, but we'll be back in January to, um, to keep looking at how humans connect to get stuff done together. What are season eh Pia? What a, what a great opportunity to talk to these 

[00:44:43] Pia: Have a really good rest. Everyone who's listening to this. This is that. That is my parting word. Have a good rest, regenerate, and we'll see. We'll see you in 23.

[00:44:54] Dan: And connect with others. Absolutely, because that is it for this episode and this season. You can find show notes and resources@spotify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. Also, please do give us a rating on your favorite podcast platform. You can contribute to the show by leaving us a voice note with a question or a comment. Just find the link in the show notes. We'd love to include you in season five. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:45:27] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.