Kevin Paul
Welcome to the Sound On Sound People & Music industry podcast channel with me Kevin Paul. In this episode I'll talk to Matt Lawrence. Matt is a Grammy award winning engineer and in this episode he talks with me candidly about his beginnings with Van Morrison and his approaches to production and mixing. I really enjoy talking with Matt. I like the way he just talks open and honestly about the studio and the roles within it. The story at the end regarding the backing vocals is worthy of any podcast. Welcome Matt.

Matt Lawrence
Thanks.

KP
Good to see you again.

ML
Yeah, good to see you too.

KP
Metropolis would have been the last time we saw each other physically. A lot's happened since then.

ML
Yeah.

KP
What was it like there?  

ML
It was amazing. It was hard work. I think we were there at a very lucky time. I think the end of the nineties and the early noughties was a particularly interesting time at Metropolis. There was a lot going on. The state of the industry was still such that there were budgets to go to big studios like that. So the bar, you know, the bar restaurant there was, it was just this hub. You know, I know I heard people would turn up for lunch just to bump into people if they haven't been working or you know, so having that much of an important social hub within the industry was incredible. It's where I got to meet so many people. People just hang out, you know, chat all day. Very distracting when you're on a session and you need to like, run a MIDI cable somewhere else. You just get caught up chatting to whoever, but…

KP
Having a latte at the bar.

ML
Having a latte, yeah. With the huge, piled high cappuccino heads.

KP
Yeah. I mean, it wasn't just the social aspect though. I mean creative wise, Metropolis was, like you say, buzzing.

ML
Yeah, there was a lot. I mean, my first day there was I was working on Science Fiction with James Avell and I was like, Thom York vocal, pushing faders up for this and that. Yeah, so my first dinner, first day, first session of Metrop was with DJ Shadow and James Avell. Next to us was All Saints who were making their first record and just yeah, and downstairs The Verve were finishing Urban Hymns. It was just, there was a lot going on. Now I say it sounds remarkable, but it was normal.

KP
That's a pretty decent start to your career isn’t it.

ML
It was a good first day yeah, yeah.

KP
You came there after working with Van Morrison, from a long, long time you were there, weren’t you.

ML
Yeah, so three four years I think pretty much.

KP
What did you learn at Van Morrison's place? Were you were you obviously were the assistant there?

ML
Yeah, yeah.

KP
And  is that where you learned all your technique?

ML
Yeah, I learned a lot there. Van's producer was Mick Glossop who was a legendary engineer, chief engineer at the Townhouse and I came there as a long haired, you know, I started early, I didn't do one of the university degrees. Everyone else did. I got advice on which to do and they said no, just get going, get started and I'm lucky I got a break there. And you know, I'd still have my teenage lackadaisical approach to music and Mick sorted me out quite quickly, regimented me and gave me a very methodical approach to it all and then Van, I mean we were recording 13 musicians simultaneously to tape. Well, that wasn't I mean, it seems normal at the time, you know, you get used to it don't you? Yeah, we'd have two tape machines leapfrogging each other So my job was to make sure the tape did not run out because he might walk in and start playing. He might be playing for three hours. No one knows. It might be one song, it might be three hours, o I had to have so much tape ready and I had to just be making notes, leapfrogging these machines as one's about to run off, get the other one going and be note taking. He'd then walk in and go, right, I want to hear that song. I better get the right reel of tape out, tell Mick the time code value and it better be like, one, two, three, or I was in trouble.

KP
How did you learn to organise that in your head? Because I mean, that's not easy to do. On a computer, you press a button and you put a memory locator in, in your session. But those days, it was analogue, pen and paper.

ML
Analogue. I had a timecode reader, a link synchroniser, looking at the timecode, just making copious notes and, actually, it does touch on something that I think is different now to then. You had to do it. It was You're on stage almost like it is happening. It feels a bit more like a live concert. So you almost raise your game. You're in that kind of other part of your mind and you're operating at a level that isn't normal for you to operate, but you're just on it and you have to be on it, so you do and I think that level of ceremony or live aspect to sessions is kind of lacking these days a little bit, you know, people you just loop record Pro Tools.

KP
I mean that definitely happens as a consequence of technology, doesn't it?

ML
Yeah.

KP
You know one of the upsides or downsides, I’m not quite sure which, that takes away that live element as you suggest, but obviously replaces in it the fact that you can loop around stuff and you can come up with ideas in a different way.

MP
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's not like I'm not, never gonna say it's better. It's just different isn't music is different and I do know people that would say eyes, but there's always guys that gonna hark on about the old days. I hope not to be one of them, let's see how today goes. It was amazing, I feel lucky to have had the opportunity to do that and to see that happen and there was a magic in those performances that others might view as raggedy-ness, but you're in the room and everything is being created there and then, like that is happening and that's a special, special thing that doesn't happen often. I mentioned Urban Hymns, I know a mate of mine Gareth was the assistant on that with Chris Potter and I think it was Drugs Don't Work that was like a take on the vocal, I’m pretty sure. Maybe get one of those guys to correct, but I'm pretty sure when you said that that's a vocal take which is really rare these days, it's just rare.

KP
And when those magic things happen because it feels magical, that's when all of that hard work you've done, the sleepless nights and constant thinking and all of the you know, the technical stuff that you do as an assistant, that's when you think oh, I like this. It is special.

ML
Yeah, your hairs are all standing up and you're, it's so emotional and this is your job. I remember even in those days like, my mates were going oh, you're working really hard. They're all off getting pissed at uni. But my, all my hairs were stood up and I remember thinking, you know, I don't think they know how special this is. This is pretty damn cool.

KP
I've just watched this band play that song.

ML
That record is, yeah.

KP
That's the only way to describe it.

ML
Yeah, it's this private gig.

KP
It's a private thing, yeah, absolutely.

ML
That you're, only a few of us are in the room experiencing and everyone else will hear it on record but it's even more powerful when you hear it back knowing you were there and you saw it go down.

KP
You learned a lot about recording, obviously.

ML
Yeah, very, very much so. I've recorded, a lot about recording and a lot about the importance of performance and the importance of making musicians feel special and in charge and listened to and catered for because they're going to perform so much better. You get these engineers who almost, I've seen engineers who I don't think treat the musicians well enough or just think they're like a keyboard or something, you know, they're going to perform, they're going to do something and you do need to sort of get them ready for that and also when, most importantly, when they're ready to go, you make sure that mic is there and in record.

KP
That's right.

ML
Cause in, especially with Van, he's ready to go now. Don't start warming up a 67, chuck whatever mic is in your hand to him now, because whatever you give him, that's the sound, song that's going on the record. He's not going to redo it.

KP
Yeah, we've all been there to that one.

ML
Because he's not going to know what he's sung some of the time. So there's a lot of, with someone like him, he's just freestyling.

KP
I think artists in general are like that. I don't necessarily think that's exclusive to him. I can think of half a dozen people I've worked off, just off the top of my head, who are like, when I'm in that zone you need to be recording, because otherwise you're going to miss the magic, basically.

ML
And it's magic, isn't it? It's the flow.

KP
It's that creativity. It's that eureka moment, you know and I mean, I know we're only making records, but it brings an awful lot of enjoyment to people.

ML
My only piece of advice to people who are recording, when a musician first plays on a thing, or sings on a thing, even if they're not ready, they'll never play like that again. Like so, if you're going to play them the thing, the song so they're, be in record, because they won't do it right, but they'll do an idea that they will never again do and if you didn't get that you're an idiot.

KP
And also with hard disk recording, there's no reason to not be in recording.

ML
No excuse at all.

KP
You know there's ample, it’s not like tape where you had 16 minutes, you know and it cost 120 quid a reel. It's like a hard drive can store 100,000 hours of recording.

ML
Absolutely.

KP
So there’s no excuse really.

ML
No, even if the mic level's crazy and it's distorting, capture the idea so you can remind them and redo it later. It's just…

KP
When you were working with all these very successful, very creative people, what were you taking from them?

ML
I'll break it down. Well Steve and Ben actually were pretty much the same thing and we touched on earlier on, I took that, this was at The Wool Hall, actually those guys at Vans place, when it was Vans studio but he still let it out commercially and, really weird kind of juxtaposition, you were doing a Van record and then Steve Osborne would come with Paul Oakenfold doing all the Perfecto remixes and Ben Hillier was there as the programmer and as I mentioned the engineer was like Danton Supple or Adrian Bushby, all these like incredible people and I, you know, look back now…

KP
Who at the time and still now…

ML
It was our team but I now think how lucky I am to have been in, you know, learning in a room with absolutely legendary names like that, it was amazing and what I took from those sessions, they were just something else. We were sort of, our preamble chatting about like, they were confident to just mess things up, like, put it through that, put that through that and they'd listen, they'd always be on the lookout for a happy accident, something would go wrong and, but it's, and they'd go wait, they'd have the confidence to identify, wait that's wrong, but it's cool. Let's go down this road, let's either record that or let's put that through that, you know, always on the lookout for things that were going to be interesting. And Steve was like, to his credit, we might be doing a three day Perfecto remix for whatever and he always had the confidence he'd come in like day three, no, I'm not feeling it, start again. I'm like what, there's a day left. No, no. He's like no, no start again and he was confident enough to do that and it always came good.

KP
Where does that come from do you think?

ML
You’d probably have to ask him but, because it certainly made even me as the assistant like, okay, we’ve got a day left, let’s roll our sleeves up. I think…

KP
Cause you knew you weren't going home that night.

ML
No, no if, the good side and bad side of that studio, it was residential, so if there was still work to do, you'd still be doing work. There was no such thing as, it was always lockout, so it was in a, some of the albums, oh my god. There was one producer I used to watch the sun rise with him and then we'd, from the window and then we'd sit back at the SSL and crack on.

KP
Oh great. I didn't see the sunrise when I was in the studio.

ML
No, it's nice to have a window, but you also knew it was daylight again and you were still at work. But Steve's confidence to do that, I don't know, some other really experienced engineers also told me like, if a mix isn't working on an analogue desk back in the day, you know, just pull all the faders down, start again. You know, having the confidence to know you're going down the wrong road, like, don't flog it to death. You know, I think it's an inexperienced thing to go, no but if I keep going it'll be good, it'll be good, I'll just keep going. Stop. Reset.

KP
Yeah, I always say if you can't get a good mix in 6 hours, you won't get a good mix in 12 hours.

ML
No, it'll just be further down the wormhole.

KP
You'll just be 6 hours of more bad mixing.

ML
Yeah, in the wrong direction.

KP
And it is brave to do that.

ML
It is, yeah.

KP
Do you ever do that yourself, when you're mixing?

ML
Yeah, I think I'm now able to. I mean, with Pro Tools it's a bit different, isn't it? Because I think the physical thing of pulling all the faders down gives you that blank canvas. With Pro Tools you're not really ever going to pull them all down again, but I think I'll just completely reset. I mean, more often than not now I'll just close and load a different session. Being able to just do a different, start on a different song gives me a whole load of new energy again, especially a different artist, different style of music it, suddenly I can get much more done in a day because you're not kind of fatigued by this one genre all the time.

KP
Yeah, which you had to do obviously on tape. It would take you two hours to just reset the desk, getting new tape out.

ML
Yeah and you're printing the master mix at midnight, you know, is it any good?

KP
What sort of music were you interested in like as to get you into the studio?

ML
Yeah, it was like sort of nineties indie bands.

KP
Happy Mondays.

ML
Yeah, Happy Mondays and Carpets and then like, you know, Pot Will Eat Itself and sort of The Wonderstuff before the big hits and that sort of Carter and Chapter House and Ride and those sort of, yeah, all that sort of era bands is when, and that's when I was in bands myself doing that kind of thing.

KP
Oh you used to play?

ML
Yeah.

KP
What did you play?

ML
Bad guitar.

KP
Bad guitar?

ML
Yeah. I mean, yeah.

KP
How bad?

ML
I was like, it was alright. It was alright. We were, you know, we were around gigging and doing supports, etc. but I think I knew, I was always into the technical side of it as well, so I kind of had that interest from an early age, which is why I then wanted to go and get into studios and start doing all that and you know years, once you're an assistant working crazy hours in a residential, it did lead me to stop playing as much, pretty much. I kind of back through it now. I think I'm starting playing a lot more and involved in more writing than ever before but I remember the moment, it's Brendan Lynch, got me to sound check a guitar but it was Paul Weller's guitar and he was stood there watching me. It was like, he's like, just play that, go on just play it. Just let me check a level on it. It's like, what she, it's like, you know clang, obviously it went badly and it was like, I'm just going to park this guitar thing for a while.

KP
What can you sort of suggest to people who are looking to come into the industry about, first of all getting your chance in the industry because obviously when we were getting into the studios there were, number one, a lot more studios but number two, the studios kind of nurtured people.

ML
Yeah, they did.

KP
They took people from assistants and made them into engineers.

ML
The opportunities are still there, but they're very, very small.

KP
How did you get your break at Van Morrison's place?

ML
So, I was very lucky. I actually was started at a very small place in Bath and we had the tech from Van's place came over to help us rewire the 24 track room, the big room and I remember the moment actually all the studio guys went, it was just me and the tech and he'd been mentioning the tape, the assistant engineer job was, you know, available at Van's place. It was Tears for Fears then actually, Van bought it two weeks after I started. And I remember being really nervous like, I've got to ask him, I've got to do it, I've got to do it. And I sort of went in the room and  that was my big break really, getting the job. I won it. I was an engineer at this place, but it was recording demos and stuff and I knew I didn't know what I was doing, you know.

KP
Is that something that people need to have, that determination?

ML
Oh yeah, you need to really want this or it is not going to happen. You know, we've been there at four in the morning. The second time, still up, you know. That happens less, but you've got to want it and you’ve got to be prepared to work hard.

KP
Yeah, but it’s a different set of parameters now, isn't it, as an assistant?

ML
Yeah, I think people are, there's still crazy hours happening but people are a bit more reasonable now, I think.

KP
Yeah, but there's a different set of jobs to do, isn't there? There’s, you know, making stems, keeping things organised, you know, people management, data management.

ML
Data management.

KP
Stuff like that.

ML
Yeah all that and yeah, almost like IT tech support as well. I was chatting to a tech rack actually about this sort of, the tape op. When I was there, the other thing about, you know, doing the Van sessions was that I had to be involved. I was like the, literally the nerve center. I had the track sheet. I knew where everything was. I had to patch everything in. So I knew literally everything that was going on in the room, technically, more than anyone else. I had to because it was my job to plug it in. So you learnt the process really well and you learnt the song really well, because you were in charge of the track sheet. So I'm sure we all know what one is, but you know, the 24 track tape, you had to write down what was written where and for how long that part was played, because you'd want to record more than 24 things sometimes. So the producer would say, right, we're going to do a verse two shaker. Now, before the engineers asked you, you're already looking at the track sheet going right, where can we fit verse two? Right, there's an outro part there so we could use that track, but we've got to be out by that point. You know, you knew the song better than anyone.

KP
Yeah that's true, that's very true.

ML
And nowadays, Assistants see the back of someone's head clicking away. I mean, I'm sure actually with stems they're going to get to retrospectively see what went on but I was definitely at the heart of it and seeing production decisions, how they steered and influenced and really feeling a part of it and I always had an opinion. I knew never to say it, but you'd be seeing if this guy would do what you would do or…

KP
That's right, you think about oh, this is what I do.

ML
Yeah. Definitely wouldn't say that though.

KP
No you wouldn't say, but then you'd like, you know an hour later they’d do what you thought you would do and you think oh. 

ML
Or they’d do the opposite.

KP
Or they’d do the opposite, yes.

ML
Actually that was good as well, I was wrong.

KP
And you’d think oh that's brilliant, I didn't think of that or I wouldn't have thought of that.

ML
Yeah and I reckon a lot of my production must be things that, a lot has gone on over the years and years of assisting, a lot of those techniques from all those people must have gone in.

KP
How do you start your mixes? Like let's say you haven't worked on the project and someone's coming to you and just said, OK Matt, we want you to mix this album or this single, which I think you do quite a lot of, you do quite a lot of mixing after the session's been recorded or produced. Where do you start?

ML
I think I view every session differently. So I don't ever have a set way or a preset or a template map, or maybe I should, but usually meet the artist, you see what they want first of all, listen to the song and I'll always then ask them for some reference and I'll, a Spotify playlist of three, four songs that they want as sort of touchstones for where this is going to be, start to get a sense of really what they think they want and try to understand what they do want and then it can vary cause you might be sent a multi, a Pro Tools session where there's already a kind of mix in progress, which is always really nice because you're already up and running and you can take it from there and get, you know, steer things further. We've all also been there where you just sent a bag of audio one, stereo, bass drum files and you spend the first day sifting through, figuring out what's in mono, what's in stereo. I always mean to outsource that and have an assistant start it, but I actually think it's probably, it's quite a good way of learning the song so I haven't yet started to do that.

KP
And then what do you do after that? I mean so, you know, let's say it's a pop song. Are you focusing on the melody, do you try, what, how do you identify in the track what's important?

ML
Yeah, that,  I think I couldn't answer the how, I just do. I go through and I figure out what I feel is important. Identifying, you know, what's the hook? Okay, identifying the groove is really important and really overlooked. Like what is the groove here? It just falls apart because you've been too clever, trying to make it too shiny or whatever, you've still got to move well and bounce well. I learnt from Roisin Murphy actually, doing a Moloko album. Learnt a lot about, she called it dance floor distress. So we'd be mixing Statues. Roisin would be in the back dancing away and if she stopped dancing or she'd be like, wait, stop, there's something wrong with the groove at this point and she, cause she couldn't dance well to it. And I think, you know, not for every style of music, but that ether that stuck with me a bit, is it moving well, is it grooving? Have I been too clever with something sonically and I've actually killed the groove here. That's partly a production thing, but you can easily ruin that in the mixing stage…

KP
Yeah, of course.

ML
…if you're not careful. So yeah, I dunno how I identify which are the key elements but I think it's really important to do that.

KP
Is it fair to say you just go on feeling?

ML
I think I do, yeah.

KP
Yeah, you just turn stuff up and if it makes you go ooh.

ML
Have a little play, tinker. It is quite a good process to copy the rough mix if there is one. I always try and get one actually. In fact, I try and get every mix that's ever existed of it. People think I'm mad and some people think that's just too much information and overkill. But I think when you listen to a mix, you're looking into the room through a different window and someone else's mix is a different window again and the more windows you can look through, the more you understand what the song could be and different mixes might work well in one part and you're like, okay, I like what he's done with the groove there, I'll make sure I don't lose that, you know. More chances to view it, really.

KP
How long does it take you to do a mix?

ML
Ha ha ha ha.

KP
Have you mixed a track in five hours?

ML
I have, because I've only been given five hours.

KP
Or are you the guy that fills the window?

ML
I'll fill the week with it.

KP
If you have it.

ML
But I'll tinker. So I did the you know, I was brought up on an SSL, or Neve or any other brand where you do the mix, you start in the morning and you print the master mix at god knows what time at night. I don't know that's the best way possible and I think now because I can jump around, as I said you get stuck just open up that mix and sometimes I might just do an hour, but I’ll do something really amazing or radical or just subtle, but I might just open that song five times during the week and so I don't know how long it's taken.

KP
So you sort of, you don't sort of say, you don't sit down and go okay, it's ten o'clock in the morning and I'm going to finish the track at eight o'clock in the evening.

ML
No.

KP
You're constantly working on it.

ML
I'm just tinkering and then I think I…

KP
Four or five hours at the start or…

ML
I finish the mix once they've really demanded it. I just keep going. I just keep going with it ’til they go, please send it.

KP
Matt, we need the song now.

ML
Yeah, yeah. Pretty much. It's good to have a deadline but I definitely don't do it in one sitting by any stretch of the imagination and I think the fresh ears, or just new approach, and it's the palette, it depends on what you've been working on before. You just get to view it in lots of different ways, it's amazing.

KP
Yeah, it's true, if you've worked on something that's soft…

ML
And you come back, you might notice it's too aggressive or you've worked on something punchy and you come back to your mix it's like, oh actually I could, I reckon I could pull more out of this.

KP
Yes exactly, yeah. Is there one thing that you've kind of always tried to do?

ML
With regard to mixing or production or just all of it?

KP
We could discuss both of those, let's start with production.

ML
I definitely want to be in pre-production with the band and make sure everybody's had a voice. Yeah, I think for production for me, pre-production is really important and it's an important stage to get to see the dynamics of the band.

KP
Where did you learn that importance?

ML
I think on the job.

KP
Because as an assistant you would have seen pre-production.

ML
I think maybe working, we had a rehearsal room at Van's place, so there were some pre-production things that used to happen. There was also a rehearsal room there. So that was quite handy. I think being with such musical projects, you were aware of it and sometimes pulled in to help.

KP
It was talked about, yeah.

ML
It was talked about and back in the 90s budgets were such that pre-production sometimes happened in the studio, so you were you were actually a part of it watching it happen except it wasn't in a cheap rehearsal room on a trading estate, it was in a posh recording studio.

KP
Yeah, you're absolutely right. You would spend three days or a week jamming, working the songs out.

ML
Yeah, searching. Writing in the studio. I mean it still happens with major label big, big budget stuff, but a lot of people now turn up, right we're doing 10 drum tacks in three days, you know, so I think yeah, pretty lucky to have seen that time as well, where there were those budgets. But also now I do not like wasting time in the studio, I think the studio time is sacred. I want the rehearsal, I want everyone to go in really confidently. I, who is it? I don't know who, it was just a load of people over the years, it made me realise that having the musicians confident in what they're playing made a huge difference. When they turn up, we're all nervous about our roles in it and I think that engineers and producers can forget that the musicians are nervous too. They might be out of their depth on this session or…

KP
It might be their first time in the studio, a big studio.

ML
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think some of the better producers I've seen just made sure that everybody felt confident, they knew what was expected of them, they knew the parts, they'd had the song sent to them where possible and it just meant that people turned up ready to go, in the right mindset and those sessions seem to run much more efficiently.

KP
What about mixing, is there a process that you do? Not maybe every time, but it's kind of like, that's kind of a thing that you would always try and see if it's going to work in this song or, I don’t know, whether that be a parallel compression or a very particular treatment that you might want to do.

ML
Yeah, I think parallel compression is something that I generally have running all the time anyway. I have a parallel compressor turn on set up I'll certainly try that on everything.

KP
Do you use multiple parallel compressors?

ML
Sometimes.

KP
Like,you know, like Michael Brown style or…

ML
If, I mean, only if I'm in a big studio with lots of compressors. At mine I might use four or five or whatever, but back when I was based at Metropolis or whatever I certainly would enjoy doing that and setting up a chain, plugging all the patch cords in was always something I ended up doing. But I think with mixing, probably it’s just listening to every mix available of the song, making sure I've seen how it has existed and how everyone has heard it as well, just so that I know what people are expecting. I know also some people do the opposite of that. I used to work with William Orbit and he was like, right, hear the rough mix quickly, right, get rid of it, delete it, I never want to hear it again, I don't want it tarnishing my, and that was a complete opposite to me and that works for him.

KP
Yeah of course.

ML
I've found it amazing actually that spending years as an engineer and an assistant, I've seen people take the polar opposite approach and still arrive at the same place and that really has taught me that there are no rules in a way or, or there are so many ways of reaching any point. And so those people who talk in absolutes, oh, this is how you do this. I sort of, I'd say…

KP
Step back a bit.

ML
Those, beware of false prophets. Those people who sort of say, this is how it has to happen, it really doesn't. I bet there's 10 ways it can happen.

KP
The last section in the podcast is called Dither and Delay.

ML
Right.

KP
Now this is, this section's about what you try to avoid doing in the studio, in mixing, in production.

ML
Wormholes, certainly. Identifying wormholes. Wormholes being, you know when you get on some detail and you start to obsess and you spend either days or on a one day mix you might spend three hours on this thing that you think is going to be incredibly clever, this little delay pinging off of, and really it's, you need to identify when you're wasting your time.

KP
How do you identify that?

ML
I think a spider sense just comes. Years of watching other people do it, staying up all night, has meant that I've got a very good wormhole spider sense and it's like lads, whatever we're doing, ladies, this is not nearly as important as you think it is. You know, the crazy overdubs that people do that they think are really clever.

KP
Can you think of anything in particular without mentioning any names?

ML
I won't mention the name, but it’s was always made me laugh. This band back in the nineties again, no mobile phones. Did you ever work at real world, Peter Gabriel's place in Box, the legendary, where it’s really near a train line. And these guys had this great idea, like, we want this panning voice shouting. So one guy's going to go into another town, get on a train and we're going to mic up the train track. And it was before mobile phones, it had to be so well organised with timetables and watches all day. And of course, this intercity 125, rolling, BRRMMM, all the meters went red. 

KP
The idea was that he shouted out of the train?

ML
There’d be this shouting backing vocal part panning across the image. It was the most ludicrous overdub I've ever seen.

KP
You win. That's it, you win that one. You totally win, there's no one going to come up with a more ridiculous overdub than that, I think. Oh, that's brought tears to my eyes. I think that's a great place to end the podcast, if I'm honest. Matt, it's been wonderful to catch up with you.

ML
Mate, great to see you again.

KP
Thank-you. Thank-you for taking the time to speak to me and I'll speak to you soon.

ML
Yeah, nice one.

KP
Thank-you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode, where you'll find further information along with web links and details of all our other episodes. And just before you go, let me point you to the soundonsound.com/podcasts website page, where you can explore what's playing on our other channels. This has been a Mixbus production by me, Kevin Paul, for Sound On Sound.