1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,221 Hello, my name is 2 00:00:03,221 --> 00:00:06,940 Jesan Sorrells, and 3 00:00:06,940 --> 00:00:08,908 this is the 4 00:00:08,908 --> 00:00:12,626 Leadership Lessons 5 00:00:12,626 --> 00:00:16,345 from the Great Books 6 00:00:16,345 --> 00:00:19,626 podcast, episode 7 00:00:19,626 --> 00:00:23,344 number 184. Opening 8 00:00:23,344 --> 00:00:26,187 up from our book 9 00:00:26,187 --> 00:00:29,469 today with a well, 10 00:00:29,469 --> 00:00:32,313 with a poem and I 11 00:00:32,313 --> 00:00:35,375 quote to Edmund, 12 00:00:35,375 --> 00:00:39,093 Clara, Hugh Bentley 13 00:00:39,093 --> 00:00:42,155 A cloud was on the 14 00:00:42,155 --> 00:00:44,998 mind of men, and 15 00:00:44,998 --> 00:00:48,060 wailing went the 16 00:00:48,060 --> 00:00:51,779 weather. Yea, a sick 17 00:00:51,779 --> 00:00:55,498 cloud upon the soul. 18 00:00:55,500 --> 00:00:58,610 When we were boys together, science announced 19 00:00:58,690 --> 00:01:02,370 nonentity and art admired decay. The world was old and 20 00:01:02,370 --> 00:01:06,010 ended, but you and I were gay. Round us in antic 21 00:01:06,010 --> 00:01:09,530 order their crippled vices came lust that had lost its laughter, 22 00:01:09,530 --> 00:01:13,369 fear that had lost its shame. Like the white lock of Whistler that 23 00:01:13,369 --> 00:01:17,170 lit our aimless gloom, Men showed their own white feather as 24 00:01:17,170 --> 00:01:20,930 proudly as a plume. Life was a fly that 25 00:01:20,930 --> 00:01:24,630 faded and death a drone that stung. The world was 26 00:01:24,630 --> 00:01:28,470 very old indeed. When you and I were young, they 27 00:01:28,470 --> 00:01:32,270 twisted even decent sin to shapes not to be named. Men 28 00:01:32,270 --> 00:01:35,990 were ashamed of honor, but we were not ashamed. Weak 29 00:01:35,990 --> 00:01:39,270 if we were, and foolish. Not thus we failed. Not thus. 30 00:01:39,830 --> 00:01:43,590 When that black bale blocked the heavens, he had no hymns from 31 00:01:43,590 --> 00:01:47,190 us. Children we were Our forts of sand were even 32 00:01:47,190 --> 00:01:51,030 as weak as we. High as they went, we piled them 33 00:01:51,030 --> 00:01:54,820 up to break that bitter sea. Fools as we 34 00:01:54,820 --> 00:01:58,500 were in motley, all jangling and absurd. When all church bells were 35 00:01:58,500 --> 00:02:02,149 silent, our cap and bells were heard. Not 36 00:02:02,149 --> 00:02:05,302 all unhelped. We held the fort, our tiny flags 37 00:02:05,302 --> 00:02:09,035 unfurled. Some giants labored in that cloud to lift it 38 00:02:09,035 --> 00:02:12,853 from the world. I find again the book we found. I feel the 39 00:02:12,853 --> 00:02:16,670 hour that flings Far out of fish shaped Pomonok Some cry 40 00:02:16,670 --> 00:02:20,319 of cleaner things and green carnation withered as in 41 00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:23,888 forest fires that pass roared in the wind. Of all the 42 00:02:23,888 --> 00:02:27,539 world 10 million leaves of grass or sane and sweet and 43 00:02:27,539 --> 00:02:31,356 sudden as a bird sings in the rain. Truth out of Tusitala 44 00:02:31,356 --> 00:02:35,173 spoke, and pleasure out of pain, Yea, cool and clear and 45 00:02:35,173 --> 00:02:38,658 sudden as a bird sings in the gray, Dunedin to Samoa 46 00:02:38,658 --> 00:02:42,475 spoke and darkness unto day. But we were young, we lived 47 00:02:42,475 --> 00:02:46,300 to see God break their bitter charms. God and the good 48 00:02:46,300 --> 00:02:49,920 Republic come riding back in arms. We have seen the 49 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:53,320 city of Mansoul even as it rocked relieved. 50 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,400 Blessed are they who did not see, but being blind 51 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,280 believed. This is a tale of those old 52 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,040 fears, even of these emptied hells, and none but you shall 53 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,520 understand the truth, the true thing that it tells 54 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:12,480 of what colossal gods of shame could cow men and yet 55 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,280 crash of what huge devils hid the stars yet fell 56 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,910 at a pistol flash the doubts that were so plain to 57 00:03:19,910 --> 00:03:23,630 chase, so dreadful to withstand. Oh, who shall understand 58 00:03:23,710 --> 00:03:27,510 but you? Yea, who shall understand the doubts that drove 59 00:03:27,510 --> 00:03:31,350 us through the night as we too talked to main and day 60 00:03:31,350 --> 00:03:34,750 had broken on the streets, Error broke upon the brain 61 00:03:35,150 --> 00:03:38,670 between us. By the peace of God, such truth can now be told. 62 00:03:39,230 --> 00:03:42,670 Yea, there is strength and striking root and good 63 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,000 in growing old we have found common things at 64 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,600 last, and marriage and a creed and I 65 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,800 may safely write it now, and you 66 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,760 may safely read. 67 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,720 There are certain books 68 00:04:10,130 --> 00:04:13,330 that remind you of things you have seen 69 00:04:13,890 --> 00:04:17,393 other places. Partially 70 00:04:17,393 --> 00:04:20,909 that's because the books themselves influence other 71 00:04:20,909 --> 00:04:24,738 mediums, but also it's partially because we all have short 72 00:04:24,738 --> 00:04:28,099 memories. There are books that have been adapted to 73 00:04:28,099 --> 00:04:31,928 movies, and usually not well, then there are the films that 74 00:04:31,928 --> 00:04:35,756 would work better as books or stories. And of course, in our 75 00:04:35,756 --> 00:04:39,194 time of declining attention spans, dopamine driven 76 00:04:39,194 --> 00:04:42,787 distractions, and the technological hijacking of the 77 00:04:42,787 --> 00:04:46,539 brain, there are certain social media performances that 78 00:04:46,539 --> 00:04:50,212 don't translate to any other medium at all. I'm sure Neil 79 00:04:50,212 --> 00:04:53,806 Postman would have something to say about that, and I'm 80 00:04:53,806 --> 00:04:57,323 sure that none of it would be good. But before Postman, 81 00:04:57,323 --> 00:05:01,074 there was our author who wrote the poem I read just now, who 82 00:05:01,074 --> 00:05:04,902 we are covering today. The writer of over 80 books, several 83 00:05:04,902 --> 00:05:08,654 hundred poems, 200 short stories, 4000 essays which were 84 00:05:08,654 --> 00:05:12,248 mostly newspaper columns, columns and several plays. 85 00:05:12,248 --> 00:05:15,608 This author was prolific in the way that only a man, a 86 00:05:15,608 --> 00:05:19,280 denizen, such as it were of the 19th century could be. And 87 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:22,717 the book we are going to address ourselves to today is 88 00:05:22,717 --> 00:05:26,313 probably the most psychedelic story I've read by a 19th 89 00:05:26,313 --> 00:05:29,283 century author in a really, really long time. 90 00:05:30,090 --> 00:05:33,530 It starts out with the reader believing and 91 00:05:33,530 --> 00:05:37,352 contemplating and trying to accept the reality 92 00:05:37,352 --> 00:05:40,982 that he's building in one way, and ends with we 93 00:05:40,982 --> 00:05:44,517 believing a totally, completely different 94 00:05:44,517 --> 00:05:48,053 thing. Now, of course, you could say that all 95 00:05:48,053 --> 00:05:51,778 good literature accomplishes such a dramatic 96 00:05:51,778 --> 00:05:55,027 two-step, but only rarely does a piece of 97 00:05:55,027 --> 00:05:58,848 literature accomplish such a two-step so well. 98 00:05:58,848 --> 00:06:02,574 The term that I've heard used for this book is so 99 00:06:02,574 --> 00:06:05,727 paradoxically, today on the show we are 100 00:06:05,727 --> 00:06:09,550 exploring meaning and what it means for leaders 101 00:06:09,550 --> 00:06:12,512 from one of the more entertaining and 102 00:06:12,512 --> 00:06:16,047 profoundly Catholic books we've covered on 103 00:06:16,047 --> 00:06:19,775 this show, the man who Was Thursday by the great 104 00:06:19,775 --> 00:06:23,405 Catholic apologist and prolific writer G.K. 105 00:06:23,405 --> 00:06:27,035 Chesterton. Leaders, there is no dark side in 106 00:06:27,035 --> 00:06:30,762 literature. Matter of fact, it's all dark. The 107 00:06:30,762 --> 00:06:34,489 only thing that makes it look light or sheds any 108 00:06:34,489 --> 00:06:38,025 Light upon it is the sun. And I'm joined today 109 00:06:38,025 --> 00:06:41,560 back from back for this episode from his last 110 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,381 foray into the space. During last year's mashup 111 00:06:45,381 --> 00:06:48,535 episode where we talked about the weird 112 00:06:48,535 --> 00:06:52,357 intersections between Pink Floyd, all quiet in 113 00:06:52,357 --> 00:06:55,798 the western front, and Lord of the Rings is a 114 00:06:55,798 --> 00:06:59,451 growing friend of the show. This is the second time 115 00:06:59,451 --> 00:07:03,085 he's been on. So that's two more times than most, folks. 116 00:07:03,085 --> 00:07:06,561 Neil Kalakofsky, how you doing today? Neil, how's it 117 00:07:06,561 --> 00:07:10,350 going? I'm doing great, Jesan. How are you? There's no dark side 118 00:07:10,350 --> 00:07:14,030 of the moon, really. It's all dark. That's right. I 119 00:07:14,030 --> 00:07:16,470 wonder if you were going to pick that up. Yes. Oh, yes. 120 00:07:17,750 --> 00:07:19,750 You were not going to slip that by me. 121 00:07:21,910 --> 00:07:25,540 I think after reading this book, I think that 122 00:07:25,860 --> 00:07:29,700 Chesterton would have been a big fan of Pink Floyd. I think he would have. 123 00:07:30,020 --> 00:07:33,660 Yeah, I think he would have. He would have shown it to all their 124 00:07:33,660 --> 00:07:37,300 shows in a rumpled, rumpled suit, and he would have critiqued them, 125 00:07:37,460 --> 00:07:41,060 you know, with that big mustache and the, the bad combover. 126 00:07:41,540 --> 00:07:45,340 But it would have been sharp, it would have been ribald, but he would 127 00:07:45,340 --> 00:07:48,900 have gotten the paradox. He would have understood what they were trying to lean into 128 00:07:48,980 --> 00:07:52,750 or lean out. So, so. Well, the thing, and we talked about 129 00:07:52,750 --> 00:07:56,430 this a little bit last time, you know, that's a little bit paradoxical. I think 130 00:07:56,430 --> 00:07:59,830 that's going to be our word for today about Pink 131 00:07:59,830 --> 00:08:03,550 Floyd is that these guys were 132 00:08:03,550 --> 00:08:07,390 in some ways godless rock and rollers, and yet they were really, you 133 00:08:07,390 --> 00:08:10,670 know, crying out for faith, right? Oh, absolutely. They were 134 00:08:10,670 --> 00:08:14,310 decrying the lack of faith, the lack of humanism, 135 00:08:15,030 --> 00:08:18,750 and the. What 136 00:08:18,910 --> 00:08:22,470 I think Chesterton might have said is you're looking in the wrong 137 00:08:22,470 --> 00:08:26,230 place. You know, you are, you're not. You're. You're. You're trying to 138 00:08:26,230 --> 00:08:29,550 find God without, you know, finding God. Right? 139 00:08:30,110 --> 00:08:33,350 Well, he would have also. He would have also. And we talked about this on 140 00:08:33,350 --> 00:08:36,350 the, the episode, the mashup episode that we did. We touched a little bit on 141 00:08:36,350 --> 00:08:39,470 this. But he would not have been a fan of 142 00:08:40,590 --> 00:08:44,150 the psychedelic experiments of Aldous 143 00:08:44,150 --> 00:08:47,900 Huxley. He would not have been a fan of any of that. He would 144 00:08:47,900 --> 00:08:51,323 have. As a matter of fact, he would have. And you could tell from the 145 00:08:51,323 --> 00:08:54,963 man who was Thursday how he goes after Nietzsche. He 146 00:08:54,963 --> 00:08:58,774 would have seen that as a direct line from Nietzschean 147 00:08:58,774 --> 00:09:02,414 worldview and would have rejected the dominoes all 148 00:09:02,414 --> 00:09:06,060 the way down the path. Right. But I 149 00:09:06,060 --> 00:09:08,740 also think he would have been shocked by how 150 00:09:09,780 --> 00:09:13,580 popular Huxley got and then how influential he got. And that probably would 151 00:09:13,580 --> 00:09:16,930 have disappointed him. I. I can imagine that would. He would have taken that badly. 152 00:09:17,330 --> 00:09:20,730 I think the fabulism, he would love. It's the fact that it 153 00:09:20,730 --> 00:09:24,330 descends so quickly into hedonism. That's the, you know, 154 00:09:24,330 --> 00:09:28,090 almost. Almost. Almost like there's no red, you 155 00:09:28,090 --> 00:09:31,610 know, light at all on the. There's just. There's no red light. 156 00:09:31,610 --> 00:09:35,181 There's no kaboom. Right down. It's a kaboom.. There's no William F. 157 00:09:35,181 --> 00:09:38,970 Buckley on the highway. It's just. You're going, yeah, well, saying this much 158 00:09:38,970 --> 00:09:42,020 and no more. Right, right. Yeah, it's all the way. But, you know, you think 159 00:09:42,020 --> 00:09:45,620 of Lewis Carroll. Right, Right. Who Chesterton must have. 160 00:09:46,180 --> 00:09:49,786 He may even have crossed. I'm not 161 00:09:49,786 --> 00:09:53,583 sure of the timeline, whether they were contemporaries in any way, 162 00:09:53,583 --> 00:09:56,905 but certainly they were literary. Close enough. Literary 163 00:09:56,905 --> 00:10:00,702 contemporaries. And, you know, Lewis, Alice in Wonderland is some 164 00:10:00,702 --> 00:10:04,501 pretty wild stuff. Right. But it doesn't descend. There's never an 165 00:10:04,501 --> 00:10:08,010 orgy in Alice in Wonderland. Right. There's no Eros or loving or 166 00:10:08,010 --> 00:10:11,843 anything like that. That would have been. Lewis Carroll would have just 167 00:10:11,843 --> 00:10:15,486 been completely bl. By stuff like that. And then 100 years later, you 168 00:10:15,486 --> 00:10:19,191 have Grace Slick singing White Rabbit at, you know, at Woodstock and. 169 00:10:19,191 --> 00:10:22,580 Which my neighbor was at, by the way, he was telling me. And he saw 170 00:10:22,580 --> 00:10:26,400 that performance. Really? Yeah, Just. Just 171 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,520 as an aside, it was kind of funny. He sent me a clip of Grace 172 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,360 Slick singing White Rabbit, and he says, I remember this like it was yesterday. 173 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:34,720 And I wrote back. I said, I'll bet she 174 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,580 doesn't. 175 00:10:41,130 --> 00:10:44,290 Yeah. Chesterton was born in. He was born in. He was born in 176 00:10:44,290 --> 00:10:48,130 1874. And looking up. Looking 177 00:10:48,130 --> 00:10:51,690 up on Google, just. Just because it's interesting that you sort of. Alice in 178 00:10:51,690 --> 00:10:55,330 Wonderland sort of. I don't know. Go ahead, tell me. Yeah, so Alice in 179 00:10:55,330 --> 00:10:59,170 Wonderland was written in. Let me go ahead and 180 00:10:59,170 --> 00:11:02,010 pull that up, because I don't have it off the top of my head. 181 00:11:04,820 --> 00:11:07,540 Alice in Wonderland was written in 1865. 182 00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:12,140 So, yeah, I mean, a little bit earlier than Chesterton 183 00:11:12,140 --> 00:11:15,620 was born. So he not only would have. Would have. Would have been 184 00:11:15,620 --> 00:11:18,900 exposed to Carol, it would have been one of those 185 00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:22,580 background influences that was just sort of floating around there 186 00:11:23,060 --> 00:11:26,580 now, how much she would have. How much she would have, shall we say, 187 00:11:26,580 --> 00:11:30,190 embraced Lewis Carroll, for lack of a better term. We don't know 188 00:11:30,190 --> 00:11:33,750 that. But. But yeah, he. I mean, Lewis Carroll had a long life in the 189 00:11:33,750 --> 00:11:37,590 middle of the middle of the 19th century. He was born in. Let me see, 190 00:11:37,590 --> 00:11:41,350 it was like 1836 191 00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:45,150 or something. So he had a. He had a long and all. Let me 192 00:11:45,150 --> 00:11:48,961 pull this up. He had a long lifespan. And then I'll tell you the 193 00:11:48,961 --> 00:11:52,799 other guy who jumped to mind when I read Besides the obvious, C.S. 194 00:11:52,799 --> 00:11:56,426 Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien, which. Yeah, the influence is, you 195 00:11:56,426 --> 00:12:00,123 know, jump. Jumping out at. You know, like, even in the poem you 196 00:12:00,123 --> 00:12:03,749 read. Yep, I noticed. So at some point he mentioned Dunedain, 197 00:12:03,749 --> 00:12:05,640 which. Yes. In all 198 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,000 to. To be clear, I looked up on Wiki, and apparently it's an island somewhere 199 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,120 in the South Pacific. It is, but in the Lord of the Rings, the 200 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,760 Dunedain were the noblemen. 201 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,440 Right. Who survived the fall of Numenor and then 202 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,250 come back to. To Middle Earth. And. And there's no way 203 00:12:25,250 --> 00:12:29,010 that's, you know, a mistake. No. No. 204 00:12:29,090 --> 00:12:32,653 Coincidence. Yeah. No. So Lewis Carroll was born 205 00:12:32,653 --> 00:12:35,504 1832. He died 1898. Okay. Alice in 206 00:12:35,504 --> 00:12:39,167 Wonderland was, like I said, was 18. Now was 207 00:12:39,167 --> 00:12:42,933 1865. G.K. Chesterton was born in 1874, died 208 00:12:42,933 --> 00:12:46,076 in 1936. Right. So while Chesterton 209 00:12:46,076 --> 00:12:49,804 overlapped a little bit with the end of Carroll's 210 00:12:49,804 --> 00:12:53,625 life, most of Carroll’s work would have been in the 211 00:12:53,625 --> 00:12:57,445 background, probably for him. Which it's weird to 212 00:12:57,445 --> 00:13:00,811 think about that because we tend to put these 213 00:13:00,811 --> 00:13:04,629 people on pedestals, literature, whatever. But, 214 00:13:04,629 --> 00:13:07,995 you know, like. Like his relationship. Like 215 00:13:07,995 --> 00:13:11,815 Chesterton's relationship with. Oh, what was the 216 00:13:11,815 --> 00:13:15,451 author, the eugenicist and author. Um, Bernard 217 00:13:15,451 --> 00:13:19,070 Shaw. George Bernard Shaw. Right. So he was. He was a 218 00:13:19,070 --> 00:13:22,762 sparring partner against George Bernard Shaw for years. 219 00:13:22,762 --> 00:13:26,377 Right. And roundly opposed the Fabian Society, roundly 220 00:13:26,377 --> 00:13:30,222 opposed Fabian socialism, thought eugenics was nonsense. 221 00:13:30,222 --> 00:13:33,455 There are some, depending upon what you read in his 222 00:13:33,455 --> 00:13:37,225 Wikipedia article, there are some intimations that maybe 223 00:13:37,225 --> 00:13:40,689 he might have been anti Semitic, but maybe not. Nobody 224 00:13:40,689 --> 00:13:44,154 really knows for sure, you know, but it was one of those 225 00:13:44,154 --> 00:13:47,925 things where, you know, Carroll is in the air, Tolstoy's in 226 00:13:47,925 --> 00:13:51,620 the air, Dostoyevsky's in the air. And these guys are just 227 00:13:51,620 --> 00:13:55,400 reading them like. Like we read YouTubers. We're like, oh, yeah, that's just the 228 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,200 critical drinker over there. Or that's, you know, whoever that we're going to on 229 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,840 YouTube. I don't know. You know, in 100 years, who knows? Who knows who's gonna 230 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,600 be. Who knows what YouTuber will rise in the back of your mind somewhere. 231 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:10,430 Right, exactly. The other guy that jumped to 232 00:14:10,430 --> 00:14:14,150 mind, unfortunately, also known for his anti Semitism was Roald 233 00:14:14,150 --> 00:14:17,990 Dahl. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. At the end, I was getting. This 234 00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:21,070 is very Charlie and the Chocolate Factory a little bit where people are just flying 235 00:14:21,070 --> 00:14:24,630 up in the air and you know, it is. 236 00:14:24,870 --> 00:14:28,710 Yeah. And I think Dahl was much less. He must have been 237 00:14:28,710 --> 00:14:31,910 50s and 60s again, I guess. But, you know. Yeah, 238 00:14:32,230 --> 00:14:35,990 but I was, I was actually kind of. 239 00:14:36,550 --> 00:14:40,300 Yeah. Flashing on some Roald Dahl there at the end. But. And 240 00:14:40,300 --> 00:14:43,060 then I think I was telling you earlier, before the podcast, you know, some of 241 00:14:43,060 --> 00:14:46,700 this seems like the early movies of, you know, Keystone 242 00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:50,340 Cops or, you know. Yes, yes. When the 243 00:14:50,340 --> 00:14:53,820 anarchists are running around Europe, you know, I picture them running around in 244 00:14:53,820 --> 00:14:57,300 stilted fashion like they're being filmed, you know, in 1912 or something. 245 00:14:57,620 --> 00:15:00,660 I had a Buster Keaton flashback. Yeah. 246 00:15:02,580 --> 00:15:05,460 When they're, when the whole, the whole section occurs in the book where 247 00:15:07,230 --> 00:15:10,950 they are chasing them across the field and they're chasing them through the town and 248 00:15:10,950 --> 00:15:14,630 it's just like chapters, long chase and. Yeah, 249 00:15:14,630 --> 00:15:18,390 it's Benny Hill, man. It's. That's it. Yes. Oh my God, I'm glad 250 00:15:18,390 --> 00:15:22,197 you brought this up like this. And I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God, 251 00:15:22,197 --> 00:15:24,030 the Benny Hill music. Yakety Sax. 252 00:15:26,590 --> 00:15:30,230 That's right. Ah. Oh. Got that song 253 00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:33,110 stuck in my head. I remember Benny Hill. Oh my God. Yeah. Like 254 00:15:33,270 --> 00:15:37,110 1980 British TV would come over and 255 00:15:37,110 --> 00:15:40,670 you could see like clips of Benny Hill, like 11:30 at night or something. 256 00:15:40,670 --> 00:15:44,510 Yeah. So this will tell you the, the. Just the age 257 00:15:44,510 --> 00:15:48,150 gap that we have. I was exposed to Benny Hill. So 258 00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:52,070 I'll frame it this way. Before I would go to school in the mid-90s 259 00:15:52,390 --> 00:15:56,110 or I go to high school, there were two programs I'd watch. If I got 260 00:15:56,110 --> 00:15:59,630 up early on PBS, I could watch the last 10 minutes of Benny 261 00:15:59,630 --> 00:16:03,470 Hill, where usually the last 10 minutes involved some 262 00:16:03,470 --> 00:16:07,310 lady in scanty clothes running around doing some. Something. And 263 00:16:07,310 --> 00:16:10,790 then the music would come up and then I would immediately change from that 264 00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:14,710 to Sports center hosted by. 265 00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:18,806 Oh, what's his name, the guy who's sort of gone off the rails lately 266 00:16:18,806 --> 00:16:22,375 on MSNBC. Keith Olbermannn. Keith Olbermann and Dan Patrick. 267 00:16:22,375 --> 00:16:25,738 Those are my guys. And this is before we knew how crazy Keith 268 00:16:25,738 --> 00:16:29,584 Olbermannn was. This is before Dan Patrick had a podcast, you know, 269 00:16:29,584 --> 00:16:33,260 all this time. Right. And. And Stuart Scott would come on sometimes 270 00:16:33,260 --> 00:16:36,780 and I'd watch Stuart Scott with Dan Patrick and I would just watch Michael 271 00:16:36,780 --> 00:16:40,540 Jordan highlights and eat my cereal. And then I would go to school. Like 272 00:16:40,540 --> 00:16:44,300 that was my whole entire. That was my. That was part of my exposure to 273 00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:46,780 like Benny Hill. And now 274 00:16:48,380 --> 00:16:52,140 this. Interesting. So my nine year old, we got a bunch of chickens in 275 00:16:52,140 --> 00:16:55,980 my. On my property. And like a bunch of chickens, like not a few, 276 00:16:55,980 --> 00:16:59,690 like. Like 12 to 15. It's ridiculous for chicken farmers. And. And 277 00:16:59,690 --> 00:17:03,010 whenever he's chasing the chickens. Chickens around. I play the Benny Hill music. 278 00:17:04,930 --> 00:17:06,690 It's basically Yakety Sax. 279 00:17:10,930 --> 00:17:14,610 Yeah. Like he's chasing the girl. Yeah, exactly. He's got his hands out. Like, 280 00:17:14,610 --> 00:17:17,970 he's got his hands out the whole nine yards. You could not put that on 281 00:17:17,970 --> 00:17:21,410 TV today. I think that would be. Benny Hill 282 00:17:21,650 --> 00:17:25,410 would be immediately canceled. Like, immediately. It wouldn't even get out of the writers room 283 00:17:25,410 --> 00:17:28,450 before the music ended. They would be closing that show down. 284 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,120 Oh, my gosh. Okay, well, getting back to the man who 285 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:40,280 Was Thursday. Let's. Let's focus this for just a minute. Yes. 286 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,989 So The Man Who Was Thursday was published in 1908. It is one of 287 00:17:44,989 --> 00:17:48,738 G.K. Chesterton's more famous books associated with him. 288 00:17:48,738 --> 00:17:52,566 It was written as an adventure story, a detective story. And 289 00:17:52,566 --> 00:17:56,241 as I put it in. In my writing, in my notes here, a boisterous 290 00:17:56,241 --> 00:17:59,685 narrative with an unexpected denouement. And it is an 291 00:17:59,685 --> 00:18:02,360 unexpected denouement. Like, it takes a. 292 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,760 It takes an immediate left turn in the last two chapters, 293 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,280 and you don't know what he's going to do. Like, I. I was. I was. 294 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,360 I looked at the book and I go, oh, my gosh, this is so short. 295 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:16,040 Because the chapters are short. It's real easy to read. It's written in a flowing 296 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,724 narrative style. You get to the last two chapters, and you're 297 00:18:19,724 --> 00:18:23,450 like, how is he gonna. How's he gonna bring it home? How is he going 298 00:18:23,450 --> 00:18:26,969 to. He has to bring it home somehow. How is he going to turn this 299 00:18:26,969 --> 00:18:30,764 corner? And then he turns the corner, and you wind up in this weird. 300 00:18:30,764 --> 00:18:34,559 This is a psychedelic part. You wind up in this weird, psychedelic 301 00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:38,147 cul-de-sac with. With robes and dudes sitting in chairs. It's 302 00:18:38,147 --> 00:18:41,972 very much Lord of the Rings. Like, it's very Lord of the Rings or 303 00:18:41,972 --> 00:18:45,327 that hideous strength by C.S. Lewis where they're all 304 00:18:45,327 --> 00:18:48,683 sitting in robes at St. Anne's at the end. You know, the 305 00:18:48,683 --> 00:18:52,487 victory has come. And they're sort of. You know, they're just 306 00:18:52,487 --> 00:18:56,139 kind of reflecting on what their role in the entire saga has 307 00:18:56,139 --> 00:18:59,793 been. I was completely channeling Lewis when I was reading 308 00:18:59,793 --> 00:19:02,690 that. Yeah. And it's. And there's no 309 00:19:03,410 --> 00:19:07,010 preparation for any of that. It just sort of dumps into it, and you're like, 310 00:19:07,890 --> 00:19:11,570 oh, I. Okay. I didn't realize it was going to be this 311 00:19:11,570 --> 00:19:15,260 kind of game. Right. The other thing about the book 312 00:19:15,660 --> 00:19:19,500 is it continues to confound readers. Like, it was. So 313 00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:23,220 this is 2026. When we're recording this episode, it 314 00:19:23,220 --> 00:19:26,900 is 118 years since this book was published, which 315 00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:30,219 is weird for me to think about, but 316 00:19:30,540 --> 00:19:34,140 in the 118 years, I don't think anybody's gotten their arms around the man who 317 00:19:34,140 --> 00:19:37,660 was Thursday. That's fair. 318 00:19:38,700 --> 00:19:42,420 You know, someday you're talking to me, but I would love to introduce 319 00:19:42,420 --> 00:19:46,240 you to my friend Bill, who's a profound. He's. I'm pointing in that direction 320 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,880 because he lives over there, you know, so your viewers can see. 321 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,837 Yeah, yeah, he's right off screen. He's over there. Right. And Bill and 322 00:19:53,837 --> 00:19:57,437 I, first of all, we belong to a C.S. Lewis Book 323 00:19:57,437 --> 00:20:00,941 Club together. But he is one of the best read 324 00:20:00,941 --> 00:20:04,637 people that I know, and he's a huge Chesterton 325 00:20:04,637 --> 00:20:08,335 fan. And maybe we could do a follow up to this at 326 00:20:08,335 --> 00:20:11,836 some point where he comes on and he's just. I 327 00:20:11,836 --> 00:20:15,338 think you'll find him just an interesting, 328 00:20:15,338 --> 00:20:18,354 profound kind of guy. Very committed 329 00:20:18,354 --> 00:20:21,661 Catholic, very, very, you know, serious 330 00:20:21,661 --> 00:20:24,677 religious fellow and a deep thinker. 331 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,000 So I'm gonna ask him that very question, 332 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,560 like, basically. And I should have done this in preparation for the show, but of 333 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,240 course I didn't, which is. Bill's hard to 334 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,960 get hold of, by the way, because in keeping with Chesterton and Tolkien, 335 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,690 he. He doesn't have a cell phone. There you go. He is hard. I actually 336 00:20:43,690 --> 00:20:47,450 have to physically walk over to his house, which is like, you know, two 337 00:20:47,450 --> 00:20:50,690 and a half blocks. That's a lot. That's a lot of commitment. 338 00:20:51,890 --> 00:20:55,570 I mean, I can't just text him. What? Yeah. 339 00:20:55,810 --> 00:20:59,530 What is this, 1908? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are we doing? This is 340 00:20:59,530 --> 00:21:03,140 100. This is 118 years ago. He's talked a lot 341 00:21:03,140 --> 00:21:06,817 about G.K. Chesterton, and he would enjoy this. This 342 00:21:06,817 --> 00:21:10,577 conversation. So at some point, putting the two of you 343 00:21:10,577 --> 00:21:14,170 together will be my. I will enjoy that conversation 344 00:21:14,170 --> 00:21:17,848 from. From my. From my chair to the side. But so to me, I 345 00:21:17,848 --> 00:21:21,525 can't separate because I have such a Lord of the Rings 346 00:21:21,525 --> 00:21:25,260 thing. Lord of the Rings was a massive influence 347 00:21:25,260 --> 00:21:28,973 on me growing up. So is C.S. Lewis. It colored a lot 348 00:21:28,973 --> 00:21:32,594 of my worldview, both of them together, both as a 349 00:21:32,594 --> 00:21:36,216 kid, where I kind of sort of thought Middle Earth 350 00:21:36,216 --> 00:21:39,929 was real or that I knew it wasn't quite real, but it 351 00:21:39,929 --> 00:21:43,671 should be real, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It should be a place like 352 00:21:43,671 --> 00:21:46,964 that. Right. Seems like a better place than the one I was 353 00:21:46,964 --> 00:21:50,757 actually at to, you know, much later as an adult, where I started 354 00:21:50,757 --> 00:21:54,478 to realize the profound philosophy that. That, you know, that 355 00:21:54,478 --> 00:21:57,841 that was. Was underneath it all. And you know, certainly 356 00:21:57,841 --> 00:22:01,491 there's some. To me, the most obvious. First of all, there's a 357 00:22:01,491 --> 00:22:04,925 lot of literature mechanisms in here where I go, Tolkien, 358 00:22:04,925 --> 00:22:08,557 Tolkien, Tolkien. Or literally throughout, like here in your, in your 359 00:22:08,557 --> 00:22:11,646 poem. I don't know if you can see this on the screen, but over here 360 00:22:11,646 --> 00:22:15,330 in your poem I wrote very J.R.R., right? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is, 361 00:22:15,330 --> 00:22:19,010 right, because it is, it's. It's the, the first of all the fact that there's 362 00:22:19,010 --> 00:22:22,770 a poem like that, you know, in Tolkien, every once 363 00:22:22,770 --> 00:22:26,610 in a while the hobbits would just start, you know, reciting. They're just like 364 00:22:26,610 --> 00:22:30,370 running around reciting poetry and eating second breakfast. Can you imagine like a 365 00:22:30,370 --> 00:22:33,890 modern literary work where suddenly someone just read a poem for three pages? 366 00:22:36,370 --> 00:22:40,144 No, no, no, no. The reader would be 367 00:22:40,144 --> 00:22:43,835 gone at verse two. I have to, I have to give you that. I 368 00:22:43,835 --> 00:22:47,442 did do a little wiki search or a little R and D before 369 00:22:47,442 --> 00:22:51,220 this. And here's an interesting thing. The person to 370 00:22:51,220 --> 00:22:54,568 whom he dedicated that poem is Edmund Clerihew 371 00:22:54,568 --> 00:22:58,199 Bentley. Yes. Do you know what a clerihew is? I 372 00:22:58,199 --> 00:23:01,914 have no idea what a clerihew is. Neither did I. But wiki, boom. 373 00:23:01,914 --> 00:23:05,653 Nailed it. Clerihew apparently is named after this 374 00:23:05,653 --> 00:23:09,480 guy. A four line poem. That's autobiographical. And 375 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,131 so it's like there's some. I was actually looking a 376 00:23:13,131 --> 00:23:16,714 few of these up. Unfortunately I don't have them like 377 00:23:16,714 --> 00:23:20,434 right here. But you can, you can look them up. Some of them 378 00:23:20,434 --> 00:23:24,074 are cute. So of course this clerihew. Poetry examples. 379 00:23:24,074 --> 00:23:27,872 Right. And Albert Einstein, though he was divine. He made 380 00:23:27,872 --> 00:23:31,650 the world spin with a theory of time. You know, things like that. Right. Kind 381 00:23:31,650 --> 00:23:33,330 of, you know. Yeah. Quick, 382 00:23:38,450 --> 00:23:42,090 I'm just seeing these right now. Discovered radium, you 383 00:23:42,090 --> 00:23:45,930 see. She glowed with pride. Oh dear. In her lap she would 384 00:23:45,930 --> 00:23:49,730 have. She also died of radium poisoning, so she did. That's a 385 00:23:49,730 --> 00:23:53,030 little dark, but you get the idea. 386 00:23:53,030 --> 00:23:56,390 Anyway, who knew those poems had a name? And someone invented them. 387 00:23:56,550 --> 00:24:00,085 Apparently it was this friend of Chesterton's. So. That's amazing. 388 00:24:00,085 --> 00:24:03,559 Yeah, that's amazing. I. And they're called clerihews. Yeah, 389 00:24:03,559 --> 00:24:06,790 that's amazing. I know. I did not. I did not know that at all. 390 00:24:07,030 --> 00:24:10,333 And that's why we. This is my gift to you, my 391 00:24:10,333 --> 00:24:13,805 friend. You impart knowledge to me. I give 392 00:24:13,805 --> 00:24:17,475 these little bon mots trivia. Well, someday 393 00:24:17,475 --> 00:24:21,243 you'll be at a dinner conversation and you'll 394 00:24:21,243 --> 00:24:25,073 say, Someone will say, does anyone. Does 395 00:24:25,073 --> 00:24:28,756 anyone know what a clerihew is? Like. Like you're like you're on an airplane, 396 00:24:28,756 --> 00:24:32,292 someone's there. A Doctor, on this plane. Is there anyone on this plane that knows 397 00:24:32,292 --> 00:24:35,152 what a clerihew is? Turns out like we have a poet. This will save his 398 00:24:35,152 --> 00:24:37,500 life. Weirdly enough, I do. 399 00:24:38,220 --> 00:24:41,953 Strangely enough, ma'am, I. With the clerihew. 400 00:24:41,953 --> 00:24:45,592 It's a musical instrument, I think. Yeah. Play with 401 00:24:45,592 --> 00:24:48,700 clerihew along with the harpsichord. And I failed at it. Now I'm switching to the 402 00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:51,750 piano and I'm totally better. Isn't there a 403 00:24:51,750 --> 00:24:55,579 clerihew and Jethro Tull or something? The 404 00:24:55,579 --> 00:24:59,406 clerihew. Some guy off to the side like some 405 00:24:59,406 --> 00:25:03,117 bizarre. Oh, more like in the Grateful Dead. 406 00:25:03,117 --> 00:25:06,602 Oh, my Lord. Anyway, they. They would have had a Clair 407 00:25:06,602 --> 00:25:09,620 Huxtable for sure. Oh my gosh. I'm not going to tell you a funny Grateful 408 00:25:09,620 --> 00:25:13,020 Dead's not on this show, but not on the show that is Grateful Dead story. 409 00:25:13,020 --> 00:25:16,720 But, but okay, so back to Chesterton, who never encountered 410 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,560 the. Although it's interesting to speculate, what would he have thought of the Dead? You 411 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,320 know, I don't know. 412 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,560 You know, so, so here's a follow up question for this. So 413 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,200 I asked you this question when we were talking about All Quiet on the 414 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,840 Western Front and Lord of the Rings in our mashup episode. And you, you gave 415 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,480 me a very interesting answer that has stuck with me 416 00:25:39,820 --> 00:25:43,580 for a long time now. And, and this is why I have fascinating folks 417 00:25:43,580 --> 00:25:46,140 like yourself on the show, because I get to ask you good questions that you 418 00:25:46,140 --> 00:25:48,980 give me stuff and it sticks with me and it incorporates into other things that 419 00:25:48,980 --> 00:25:52,140 I think. And the question that I asked you was, at the end of this, 420 00:25:52,140 --> 00:25:55,980 towards the end of that episode, will there ever be another 421 00:25:56,300 --> 00:26:00,100 writer like Tolkien? Will. Will the English, Will English 422 00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:03,780 literature ever be able to produce another writer like Tolkien? And you said 423 00:26:03,780 --> 00:26:07,590 probably not, because Tolkien was sort of the, the 424 00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:11,270 pinnacle of the mountain of all of English culture and 425 00:26:11,270 --> 00:26:14,870 society and thought it all sort of concentrated at 426 00:26:15,030 --> 00:26:18,590 a tip of the spear into that man and his, his output. 427 00:26:18,590 --> 00:26:22,190 Okay, but when we look not, but. 428 00:26:22,190 --> 00:26:25,612 And when we look at the History of 19th century 429 00:26:25,612 --> 00:26:29,215 Literature in England, you have Lewis Carroll, 430 00:26:29,215 --> 00:26:32,998 you have Charles Dickens, you have GK Chesterton, 431 00:26:32,998 --> 00:26:36,419 you have George Bernard Shaw, you have Robert 432 00:26:36,419 --> 00:26:40,020 Louis Stevenson, you have C.S. Lewis on the tail 433 00:26:40,020 --> 00:26:43,531 end of this. And of course you have Tolkien, you 434 00:26:43,531 --> 00:26:47,223 have these lions, these literary lines. Rudyard 435 00:26:47,223 --> 00:26:51,006 Kipling, who, by the way, we haven't covered any of 436 00:26:51,006 --> 00:26:54,788 Kipling's work on this show yet. We sort of working 437 00:26:54,788 --> 00:26:58,388 our way around to it. We will cover. We will cover 438 00:26:58,388 --> 00:27:01,990 Rudyard Kipling coming up here fairly soon. I'm 439 00:27:01,990 --> 00:27:05,500 trying to find the right text to Bring to folks. 440 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,000 But the, the, the. A. The 19th century literary tradition 441 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,640 in England was so rich, it's almost 442 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,200 stunning. It's like the height. It's the height of a, of a 443 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:18,800 literary. 444 00:27:23,450 --> 00:27:26,890 The man who was Thursday comes along in a weird time 445 00:27:26,970 --> 00:27:30,010 when the Boer wars have occurred, 446 00:27:30,570 --> 00:27:34,290 right? England is having a little bit of trouble 447 00:27:34,290 --> 00:27:37,970 holding onto its colonies, but it's always had trouble because it's England. So they don't 448 00:27:37,970 --> 00:27:41,370 really think that it's anything really interesting that's happening there. 449 00:27:42,410 --> 00:27:45,890 But what is happening that's more so interesting is the 450 00:27:45,890 --> 00:27:49,650 continent is getting ready to roil literally 12 451 00:27:49,650 --> 00:27:53,410 years later with World War. World War I. 10. 10 years later with World War 452 00:27:53,410 --> 00:27:55,870 I. Like you're going to get into World War I. Going to be off to 453 00:27:55,870 --> 00:27:59,470 the races, right? I mean, this is the, this is the beginnings of. Or the, 454 00:27:59,470 --> 00:28:02,870 the foundation is being laid for the death of the British 455 00:28:02,870 --> 00:28:06,470 Empire, but nobody knows it at that point. Nobody 456 00:28:06,470 --> 00:28:10,190 realizes it at that point, right? So I 457 00:28:10,190 --> 00:28:13,475 say all this to say. Or I asked, I lay. That's the 458 00:28:13,475 --> 00:28:16,875 content I laid for this question. The man who was 459 00:28:16,875 --> 00:28:20,445 Thursday. The reason is the reason we can't get our 460 00:28:20,445 --> 00:28:24,100 arms around it and pigeonhole into some space. Is it 461 00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:27,670 because it is truly the heir to that entire English 462 00:28:27,670 --> 00:28:30,730 tradition. Was Chesterton trying to bring 463 00:28:30,730 --> 00:28:34,555 everything into this one book and say sort of. And sort 464 00:28:34,555 --> 00:28:36,425 of make a final statement? 465 00:28:39,710 --> 00:28:43,390 Well, I'm not sure I'm the, the right person 466 00:28:43,390 --> 00:28:47,030 to ask to answer that question, but I'll give it Where's Bill? Where's that guy? 467 00:28:47,030 --> 00:28:50,190 Yeah, where's Bill? Ask that same question to Bill when he comes along. 468 00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:54,950 So. But I think that 469 00:28:56,550 --> 00:29:00,230 the, the, the, the reason 470 00:29:00,230 --> 00:29:03,270 we have our. One of the reasons we have 471 00:29:03,270 --> 00:29:07,030 difficulty getting our arms around Chesterton 472 00:29:07,030 --> 00:29:09,750 is that I think we in 2026 473 00:29:11,190 --> 00:29:14,910 have difficulty. You know, there used to be 474 00:29:14,910 --> 00:29:17,950 saying there's no second act in American life, right? Which once they know you as 475 00:29:17,950 --> 00:29:20,990 an actor, that's it, you're an actor forever. Once you're a playwright, you're a playwright 476 00:29:20,990 --> 00:29:23,940 forever. You can't do. You can't do different things or it's very difficult. 477 00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:28,620 I think that that kind of is broadly true 478 00:29:28,620 --> 00:29:32,420 where particularly in the world of the Internet, we pinhole people 479 00:29:32,420 --> 00:29:36,220 as you're this. And once someone is known as a Christian 480 00:29:36,220 --> 00:29:39,540 apologist, well, they can't also be funny, right? 481 00:29:39,860 --> 00:29:43,300 They can't also be indulged in, you know, 482 00:29:43,780 --> 00:29:45,780 what we would call almost psychedelic 483 00:29:47,060 --> 00:29:50,630 literature because that's just not things that go together, 484 00:29:50,950 --> 00:29:54,630 right? So I'm saying that's Kind of 485 00:29:54,630 --> 00:29:58,070 the. The shallow view, right? Yeah, 486 00:29:58,710 --> 00:30:01,510 that. So I think one of the reasons, and I think one of the reasons 487 00:30:01,510 --> 00:30:04,950 Tolkien actually slips by that is because 488 00:30:05,110 --> 00:30:08,710 his books are theoretically written for children. 489 00:30:09,110 --> 00:30:12,550 They're not, of course, they're profoundly deep works for adults. 490 00:30:12,710 --> 00:30:16,430 But he slips it in there. Right? That's. CS Lewis does that 491 00:30:16,430 --> 00:30:20,190 with Narnia. Right. Because it's. In some ways, we read Narnia to 492 00:30:20,190 --> 00:30:23,480 our kids because we think of them as kids stories, but of course, they're not. 493 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,960 They're much more than that. But that was, I think, some of the 494 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,240 additional genius of. Of Tolkien 495 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,640 where I don't think he sat down and said, well, here's a way to get 496 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,280 a Christian message across in a way that, you know, people will not, you 497 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,120 know, object to immediately in this world of, you know, material anarchy that I see 498 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,320 all around me. I don't. I don't think he sat down and thought that, but 499 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,040 it was part of his genius to kind of 500 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,800 develop the delivery mechanism in such a. You know, 501 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,480 I've read the Lord. I. I know I have a Lord of the Rings shaped 502 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,320 head, so I talk about it a lot, but I read it as a kid. 503 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,800 I read it as a young adult. I've read it as an adult. I've read 504 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,520 it very recently. I've read it to my kids, 505 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,320 with my kids. So the. 506 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,477 I. So I think that that's part of it. I think he doesn't. It's 507 00:31:10,477 --> 00:31:13,950 difficult to put him in a pigeonhole, and he's not famous 508 00:31:13,950 --> 00:31:17,644 enough in the way that Tolkien is. Just so, you know, they're 509 00:31:17,644 --> 00:31:21,487 not going to make a movie out of the man who called, you know, the 510 00:31:21,487 --> 00:31:24,690 man who was Thursday. Yeah, yeah. Right. 511 00:31:25,650 --> 00:31:29,370 Whereas, you know, the Tolkien works are so famous that they kind 512 00:31:29,370 --> 00:31:33,010 of blow away a lot of those sort of. Well, I'm not sure I. 513 00:31:33,170 --> 00:31:37,010 What pigeonhole do I put this in? Kind of. Kind of. Objection. So 514 00:31:38,610 --> 00:31:42,360 that's one reason. I think the other reason is something that you touched 515 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,780 on, which is he's so very British. Right. To me. So I was 516 00:31:45,780 --> 00:31:49,274 telling you earlier I had this characterization of 517 00:31:49,274 --> 00:31:52,929 Chesterton. I want to save it for the show. Here it is. I 518 00:31:52,929 --> 00:31:56,666 think if you took CS Lewis and Winston Churchill and put 519 00:31:56,666 --> 00:32:00,078 them together, you'd get G.K. Chesterton. Right. 520 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,486 I think that's my image of G.K. Chesterton. And by 521 00:32:05,486 --> 00:32:09,120 the way, I didn't realize until actually after I 522 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,846 read the book, he was a big guy. He was almost £300. 523 00:32:12,846 --> 00:32:16,260 Yeah. Oh, yeah. He was a big boy. Oh, yeah. He was A big boy. 524 00:32:16,260 --> 00:32:19,860 Which makes me wonder about Sunday, because, correct me if I'm wrong, but Sunday's a 525 00:32:19,860 --> 00:32:23,500 big. Sunday's a big. Yes, yes, yes. That's how he's. 526 00:32:23,580 --> 00:32:27,420 That's how he's described as sort of this. This sort of all encompassing. 527 00:32:27,740 --> 00:32:31,020 Yeah, like. Like at the end, he's almost like. Right. 528 00:32:31,420 --> 00:32:35,222 It's. It's like the. The kid in again, in Roald Dahl. Who's 529 00:32:35,222 --> 00:32:38,945 the kid who. Who, like. Or somebody takes the bubble down 530 00:32:38,945 --> 00:32:42,270 and they end up blowing up to Violet Beauregarde or 531 00:32:42,270 --> 00:32:46,100 something. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like three times 532 00:32:46,100 --> 00:32:48,740 her size or something like that. So. 533 00:32:49,860 --> 00:32:53,460 So I think also, though, we're just. 534 00:32:54,020 --> 00:32:57,820 That is a vanished archetype, the Winston 535 00:32:57,820 --> 00:33:01,580 Churchill, you know, the guy who. Who first 536 00:33:01,580 --> 00:33:04,820 of all was grounded in certain 537 00:33:04,900 --> 00:33:08,740 moral certitudes, but also could get along with just about 538 00:33:08,740 --> 00:33:12,340 anyone. Right. Always had the 539 00:33:12,340 --> 00:33:16,060 right thing to say at the right time, you know. You know, like, Churchill's 540 00:33:16,060 --> 00:33:18,980 famous, you know, the. The woman who says, you know, 541 00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:23,940 Mr. Churchill, if you were my husband, I would poison you. And he said, 542 00:33:23,940 --> 00:33:26,740 madame, if you were my wife, I would drink it. I would drink it. 543 00:33:31,060 --> 00:33:34,860 Well, it's like that. Yeah. Who could pull a line like that off today? I'm. 544 00:33:34,860 --> 00:33:38,580 Come on. You know. You know, I don't see Tom Cruise nailing a line 545 00:33:38,580 --> 00:33:41,420 like that in a movie. No, no, no. The problem is. The problem is all 546 00:33:41,420 --> 00:33:44,980 those guys are on Twitter. That's the problem. They're all on Twitter. 547 00:33:45,060 --> 00:33:48,780 Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Maybe that's what. Yeah, for the. For the. For the 548 00:33:48,780 --> 00:33:52,020 great. The zap. So. But. 549 00:33:52,820 --> 00:33:56,500 So I think that's. It's partly that he's just. I mean, he's almost 550 00:33:56,580 --> 00:34:00,370 like, you know, like a Roman senator. He's so far back and 551 00:34:00,370 --> 00:34:04,130 so archetypal that you can't. He's almost 552 00:34:04,130 --> 00:34:07,850 not like. Not a real person. You know, we don't see people like that 553 00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:11,690 anymore. Well, and it's interesting that you talk about his weight and 554 00:34:11,690 --> 00:34:15,410 sort of the rumpledness that Chesterton had, and then we'll. We'll 555 00:34:15,410 --> 00:34:17,730 go. We'll head back to the book here because I want to turn the corner, 556 00:34:17,730 --> 00:34:20,290 sort of talk about some other themes that I want to talk about today. But 557 00:34:20,290 --> 00:34:22,650 it's interesting you talk about his weight, his rumpledness. 558 00:34:24,090 --> 00:34:27,290 You know, he struggled with gout and gluttony and those kinds of things. 559 00:34:28,950 --> 00:34:32,310 And we live in a post television era, like one of the. 560 00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:36,630 One of the. I would love to write a substack essay on this 561 00:34:36,630 --> 00:34:39,310 because I've been thinking about this off and on for the last four or five 562 00:34:39,310 --> 00:34:42,470 years, how no one really is 563 00:34:42,470 --> 00:34:46,310 appreciating how much that box in your house 564 00:34:46,390 --> 00:34:50,070 called a television has gotten pulled apart in the last 15 565 00:34:50,150 --> 00:34:53,625 years. It's got pulled apart by streaming, it's been 566 00:34:53,625 --> 00:34:57,232 pulled apart by different distribution channels. It's 567 00:34:57,232 --> 00:35:00,684 been pulled apart by the death of attention, it's been 568 00:35:00,684 --> 00:35:03,905 pulled apart by the transition of advertising and 569 00:35:03,905 --> 00:35:07,435 marketing technology, and it's primarily been pulled 570 00:35:07,435 --> 00:35:11,194 apart by the creation of the Internet. The second you could 571 00:35:11,194 --> 00:35:14,799 have an infinite number of channels, and the second that 572 00:35:14,799 --> 00:35:18,327 infinite number of channels was attached to what in the 573 00:35:18,327 --> 00:35:21,701 future will be an AI template in your pocket, which is 574 00:35:21,701 --> 00:35:24,924 currently a template in your pocket. Once that was 575 00:35:24,924 --> 00:35:28,608 attached, once those two things came together from thank 576 00:35:28,608 --> 00:35:32,445 you, Steve Jobs. The explosion that was going to happen was, 577 00:35:32,445 --> 00:35:35,668 was, was, was for the television, a thermonuclear 578 00:35:35,668 --> 00:35:39,273 explosion. Now, don't get me wrong, the physical object 579 00:35:39,273 --> 00:35:43,033 still exists on your wall, sure. But what it meant when jfk. 580 00:35:43,033 --> 00:35:46,794 This is where I mentioned Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves 581 00:35:46,794 --> 00:35:50,370 to Death. Right. Postman didn't want to talk about digital. He didn't, 582 00:35:50,370 --> 00:35:54,050 he didn't care about any of that. His, his whole focus was on what TV 583 00:35:54,450 --> 00:35:58,290 meant for reality. That's why Amusing Ourselves to Death is such an amazing book written 584 00:35:58,290 --> 00:36:01,650 back in 1985. But Postman noted that, 585 00:36:02,610 --> 00:36:06,170 and I'm going to tie the suggestion in a minute, but noted that what TV 586 00:36:06,170 --> 00:36:09,410 meant was images mattered more 587 00:36:10,370 --> 00:36:14,220 than the medium. Right. So the medium 588 00:36:14,220 --> 00:36:17,859 is the message, for sure. Marshall McLuhan, he backed that up. 589 00:36:17,859 --> 00:36:21,016 But both of those things were intricately, 590 00:36:21,016 --> 00:36:24,524 intricately tied together. And so you couldn't 591 00:36:24,524 --> 00:36:28,208 have a sweaty Richard Nixon on TV in 1960. You know, 592 00:36:28,208 --> 00:36:32,020 you had to have JFK pack on the pancake makeup. Sure. 593 00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:35,133 Fast forward to our era. One of the most 594 00:36:35,133 --> 00:36:38,545 notorious changes I've seen in the last two 595 00:36:38,545 --> 00:36:42,054 years is how we have gone from as a culture, at 596 00:36:42,054 --> 00:36:45,848 least on Internet culture, the online culture, 597 00:36:45,848 --> 00:36:48,787 from being very, very positive about 598 00:36:48,787 --> 00:36:51,916 everybody's body to now Ozempic-face. 599 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,279 Right. And we've done that in two years. All of a sudden, body positivity 600 00:36:56,279 --> 00:37:00,080 went out the door because Ozempic is here. 601 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,920 Right, right. And so body positivity wasn't really body positivity. 602 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,920 It was, I don't have a get rich or get 603 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,700 weight loss quick over system so that I can show up as 604 00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:15,420 an image, which is what we have primarily made our mode of 605 00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:18,540 messaging since the rise of television. 606 00:37:20,620 --> 00:37:23,900 I don't have that tool to go to that mode and so I'm going to 607 00:37:23,900 --> 00:37:26,780 be positive and I'm going to shape what the tool says about. Right. 608 00:37:27,180 --> 00:37:30,900 Chesterton, to your point, this is why that 609 00:37:30,900 --> 00:37:34,700 archetype no longer exists. Because of tv, because of the Internet, 610 00:37:35,020 --> 00:37:38,720 and because of Ozempic. That, that, that, that. I don't care 611 00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:42,480 how quippy he is. If he's £300, right. You can't put 612 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,240 that guy, you know, he'll. He won't make it. Yep, he won't make 613 00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:48,760 it. Yeah. And that's a real, 614 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,360 That's a real shame. It's. 615 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,160 In some, in some ways, you know, Hassan, I feel like we're 616 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,010 describing the modern Tower of Babel that is just 617 00:38:03,010 --> 00:38:06,770 building itself higher and higher and eventually is going to come crashing 618 00:38:06,770 --> 00:38:10,490 down. The, The. Because the. I 619 00:38:10,490 --> 00:38:13,330 mean, you know, I guess 620 00:38:14,690 --> 00:38:18,450 your viewers will, Will get, Get the, the idea. I'm not a huge 621 00:38:18,450 --> 00:38:22,210 fan of a lot of modern culture. I just, I 622 00:38:22,210 --> 00:38:25,410 find it horrific, most of it. 623 00:38:25,810 --> 00:38:29,396 And the. To me, what I mourn most is the 624 00:38:29,396 --> 00:38:33,129 death of books. But behind the books has to be the writer, 625 00:38:33,129 --> 00:38:36,863 and behind the writer has to be the culture that produces 626 00:38:36,863 --> 00:38:40,358 the novelist. The idea that the writer was rewarded. 627 00:38:40,358 --> 00:38:43,933 Chesterton was probably rewarded from a young age for 628 00:38:43,933 --> 00:38:47,744 being quippy and for being sharp and for having the bon mot 629 00:38:47,744 --> 00:38:51,555 and for, you know, or however you pronounce it. But I don't 630 00:38:51,555 --> 00:38:55,051 speak French. Amongst my many defects, that's one of 631 00:38:55,051 --> 00:38:58,545 them. And the. But there was a time where that was, you 632 00:38:58,545 --> 00:39:02,140 know, sort of lauded because. But, you know, you mentioned Twitter, so would. 633 00:39:02,140 --> 00:39:05,940 Would the Chesterton of today have been on Twitter? The problem is I 634 00:39:05,940 --> 00:39:09,620 can't distinguish the Chesterton on Twitter from the bot on 635 00:39:09,620 --> 00:39:13,410 Twitter. Right. I could be talking to, To a, you 636 00:39:13,410 --> 00:39:17,201 know, to nothing. And the, the. That just leads to 637 00:39:17,201 --> 00:39:20,712 chaos. I, I don't know. You know, was it, Was it 638 00:39:20,712 --> 00:39:24,503 Chesterton, it just made that witty observation 639 00:39:24,503 --> 00:39:28,199 about Marco Rubio or was it, you know, an AI whose 640 00:39:28,199 --> 00:39:31,989 server is somewhere in Tierra del Fuego? I mean, I 641 00:39:31,989 --> 00:39:35,593 have no idea. So it's, It's. There's a lot about 642 00:39:35,593 --> 00:39:39,384 modern culture that I, you know, it's hard to see. 643 00:39:39,384 --> 00:39:42,780 And maybe this will let me. If you want to lead us back to the 644 00:39:42,780 --> 00:39:45,260 book. It's hard to see the way out 645 00:39:46,300 --> 00:39:50,060 where we go from here to you. Oh, okay. We got to 646 00:39:50,140 --> 00:39:53,960 a, you know, a kind of better place. Um, one last thing. 647 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,360 And I, we do want to get back to the book, but, you know, I 648 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,240 sort of dabble in the side with some writing and, 649 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,840 And I wrote a. 650 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,240 I'M writing a screenplay, a movie screenplay 651 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,301 that is in the 80s. I traveled around a bit. I'm just 652 00:40:11,301 --> 00:40:14,989 going to make this super quick, I promise. But it does tie back. And I 653 00:40:14,989 --> 00:40:18,612 started my travels in Amsterdam, literally landing 1986, no idea 654 00:40:18,612 --> 00:40:22,366 where I was, very little money, one way ticket to speak the language, 655 00:40:22,366 --> 00:40:25,989 you know, and I'm setting the, the opening movie. I'm writing this 656 00:40:25,989 --> 00:40:29,678 actually for my daughter who said, gee, you should write something 657 00:40:29,678 --> 00:40:33,230 because I've been telling her stories of these travels forever. 658 00:40:33,390 --> 00:40:36,790 Yeah. So I'm doing it in the form of a fictionalized movie script. And it 659 00:40:36,790 --> 00:40:40,430 starts off with the fictional me in the travel bureau, which, which was a true. 660 00:40:40,430 --> 00:40:44,270 Actually happened standing there in the travel bureau. And I 661 00:40:44,270 --> 00:40:47,990 won't take you through it except to say, you know, there's a voiceover saying, 662 00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:51,450 okay, I have no money or very little money. I don't, I don't speak the 663 00:40:51,450 --> 00:40:54,610 language. I don't know where I am, I don't know where I'm sleeping that night. 664 00:40:55,010 --> 00:40:56,370 And it was better. 665 00:40:59,170 --> 00:41:02,960 And it was. And, and the, the point of the story is me bumbling 666 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,505 through Europe for eight months, which actually happened. 667 00:41:06,505 --> 00:41:10,123 Right. But nothing bad, you know, Nothing bad. Yeah, it's all 668 00:41:10,123 --> 00:41:13,883 fun. I saw, I met some really interesting people, had some great 669 00:41:13,883 --> 00:41:17,641 times, and that's what I was trying to convey to, to my daughter, 670 00:41:17,641 --> 00:41:21,403 which is, I think it might have been better and I think we may have 671 00:41:21,403 --> 00:41:25,161 created something in the Internet and social media. Parts of it 672 00:41:25,161 --> 00:41:28,851 are great. Like I can look up G.K. Chesterton on Wiki and in five 673 00:41:28,851 --> 00:41:32,540 seconds, you know, learn more about, learn what a clerihew is. 674 00:41:32,540 --> 00:41:34,580 You know, I had no idea 24 hours ago. 675 00:41:36,020 --> 00:41:37,300 And, But 676 00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:43,430 I kind of think the negatives maybe outweigh the positives. I don't, I 677 00:41:43,430 --> 00:41:45,670 don't think you're, I don't think you're alone in thinking that. 678 00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:51,270 Yeah. And, well, I think Chesterton might 679 00:41:51,270 --> 00:41:54,150 have something for us. So back to the book, back to them. 680 00:41:55,110 --> 00:41:58,150 The man who Was Thursday. So we're gonna go into chapter two. 681 00:41:58,549 --> 00:42:02,279 Okay. The Secret of Gabriel Syme in, in 682 00:42:02,279 --> 00:42:06,048 my edition. It's on page 10. I'm gonna go down to 683 00:42:06,048 --> 00:42:09,816 the bottom of it here, and I'm going to go into an 684 00:42:09,816 --> 00:42:13,295 argument that Chesterton was having with, 685 00:42:13,295 --> 00:42:17,065 with a couple of people. And this is where I sort 686 00:42:17,065 --> 00:42:20,639 of began to understand a little, or at least I 687 00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:24,310 thought I began to understand what it is that, 688 00:42:24,310 --> 00:42:27,886 that Chesterton was trying to pull off with, 689 00:42:27,886 --> 00:42:31,075 with this book. So Gabriel Syme is a, is a 690 00:42:31,075 --> 00:42:34,747 detective. I'm going to sort of lay the lay the 691 00:42:34,747 --> 00:42:38,420 groundwork here. He's a detective and he's on 692 00:42:38,420 --> 00:42:41,414 an investigation of an anarchist, an 693 00:42:41,414 --> 00:42:45,086 anarchist named at this point named Gregory, 694 00:42:45,086 --> 00:42:48,757 right? And Gregory presents himself as being 695 00:42:48,757 --> 00:42:52,524 erudite, as being polite, as being formal. You 696 00:42:52,524 --> 00:42:55,908 know, all the things that I said about, you 697 00:42:55,908 --> 00:42:59,193 know, 19th century British culture come 698 00:42:59,193 --> 00:43:02,575 together right in, in, in, in, in Gregory. 699 00:43:03,140 --> 00:43:06,840 And Gregory's trying to explain to Syme after they have a 700 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,617 poetry battle in the first chapter what exactly it is that 701 00:43:10,617 --> 00:43:14,080 this idea of anarchism is about. So I'm going to read a 702 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,544 couple of different sections from here as Gregory's 703 00:43:17,544 --> 00:43:21,163 answers to to Syme on page 10, and I quote, it does seem to 704 00:43:21,163 --> 00:43:24,785 have a moral underneath all its gaiety, assented Sime. 705 00:43:24,785 --> 00:43:28,562 But may I ask you two questions? You need not fear to give me 706 00:43:28,562 --> 00:43:32,183 information, because as you remember, you very wisely 707 00:43:32,183 --> 00:43:35,489 extorted from me a promise not to tell the police. A 708 00:43:35,489 --> 00:43:39,268 promise I shall certainly keep. So is it in mere curiosity 709 00:43:39,268 --> 00:43:42,967 that I make my queries? First of all, what is it really all 710 00:43:42,967 --> 00:43:46,271 about? What is it you object to? You want to abolish 711 00:43:46,271 --> 00:43:49,892 government? To abolish God, said Gregory, opening the 712 00:43:49,892 --> 00:43:53,591 eyes of a fanatic. We do not only we not only want to upset a 713 00:43:53,591 --> 00:43:57,054 few despotisms and police regulations, that sort of 714 00:43:57,054 --> 00:44:00,595 anarchism does exist, but it is a mere branch of the non 715 00:44:00,595 --> 00:44:04,372 conformists. We dig deeper and we blow you higher. We wish 716 00:44:04,372 --> 00:44:07,836 to deny all those arbitrary distinctions of vice and 717 00:44:07,836 --> 00:44:11,537 virtue, honor and treachery upon which mere rebels base 718 00:44:11,537 --> 00:44:14,995 themselves. The silly sentimentalists of the French 719 00:44:14,995 --> 00:44:18,494 Revolution talked of the rights of man. We hate rights as we hate 720 00:44:18,494 --> 00:44:22,192 wrongs. We have abolished right and wrong and right and left, added 721 00:44:22,192 --> 00:44:26,022 Sime with simple eagerness. I hope you will abolish them too. They are 722 00:44:26,022 --> 00:44:29,787 much more troublesome to me. You spoke of a second question, snapped 723 00:44:29,787 --> 00:44:33,553 Gregory. With pleasure, resumed Sime. In your all your present acts 724 00:44:33,553 --> 00:44:37,350 and surroundings there is a scientific attempted secrecy. I have an 725 00:44:37,350 --> 00:44:40,010 aunt lived over a shop, but this is the first time I have found people 726 00:44:40,010 --> 00:44:43,810 living from preference under a public house. You have a heavy 727 00:44:43,810 --> 00:44:47,610 iron door. You cannot pass it without submitting to the humiliation of calling yourself Mr. 728 00:44:47,610 --> 00:44:50,570 Chamberlain. You surround yourself with steel instruments 729 00:44:51,530 --> 00:44:55,010 which make the place, if I may say so, more impressive than homelike. May I 730 00:44:55,010 --> 00:44:58,010 ask why, after taking all this trouble to barricade yourselves in the bowels of the 731 00:44:58,010 --> 00:45:01,690 earth, you then parade your whole secret by talking about anarchism to every 732 00:45:01,690 --> 00:45:04,860 silly woman in Saffron Park? Gregory 733 00:45:04,860 --> 00:45:08,700 smiled. The answer is simple, he said. I told you I 734 00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:12,396 was a serious anarchist. And you do not believe me. Nor do they believe me. 735 00:45:12,396 --> 00:45:16,192 Unless I took them into this infernal room, they would not believe me. 736 00:45:16,192 --> 00:45:19,858 Sime smoked thoughtfully and looked at him with interest. Gregory 737 00:45:19,858 --> 00:45:23,391 went on, Now pause. This is the key piece right here. This is when I 738 00:45:23,391 --> 00:45:26,926 thought, Chesterton, you're onto something. The history of the 739 00:45:26,926 --> 00:45:30,659 thing might amuse you. He said, when I first. When first I became one of 740 00:45:30,659 --> 00:45:34,156 the new anarchists, I tried all kinds of respectable disguises. I 741 00:45:34,156 --> 00:45:37,653 dressed up as a bishop. I read up all about bishops in our anarchist 742 00:45:37,653 --> 00:45:41,024 pamphlets and superstition and a vampire and priests of prey. I 743 00:45:41,024 --> 00:45:44,773 certainly understood from them that bishops are strange and terrible 744 00:45:44,773 --> 00:45:48,524 old men keeping a cruel secret from mankind. I was misinformed when, on 745 00:45:48,524 --> 00:45:52,339 my first appearing in an episcopal gaiters in a drawing room, I cried out 746 00:45:52,339 --> 00:45:55,899 in a voice of thunder, down, down, presumptuous human reason. They 747 00:45:55,899 --> 00:45:58,761 found out in some way that I was not a bishop at all. I was 748 00:45:58,761 --> 00:46:02,370 nabbed at once. Then I made up as a millionaire. But I defended 749 00:46:02,370 --> 00:46:06,090 capital with so much intelligence that a fool could see I was quite poor. 750 00:46:06,730 --> 00:46:10,410 Then I tried being a major. Now I am a humanitarian myself. But 751 00:46:10,410 --> 00:46:13,770 I have, I hope, enough intellectual breadth to understand the position of those who, 752 00:46:14,010 --> 00:46:16,970 like Nietzsche, admire violence, 753 00:46:17,770 --> 00:46:21,530 the proud, mad war of nature and all that, you know. 754 00:46:21,930 --> 00:46:25,450 I threw myself into the major. I drew my sword and waved it about constantly. 755 00:46:25,450 --> 00:46:29,290 I called out blood abstractedly, like a man calling for wine. I often said, let 756 00:46:29,290 --> 00:46:33,090 the weak perish. It is the law. Well, well, it seems 757 00:46:33,090 --> 00:46:36,810 majors don't do this. I was nabbed again. At last I went in despair 758 00:46:36,810 --> 00:46:40,130 to the president of the Central Anarchist Council, who is the greatest man in Europe. 759 00:46:40,930 --> 00:46:44,610 What is his name? Asked Sime. You would not know it said, answered Gregory. That 760 00:46:44,610 --> 00:46:48,410 is his greatness. Caesar and Napoleon put all their genius into being heard 761 00:46:48,410 --> 00:46:52,090 of, and they were heard of. He puts all his genius into not being 762 00:46:52,090 --> 00:46:55,890 heard of, and he is not heard of. But you cannot be for five 763 00:46:55,890 --> 00:46:58,970 minutes in the room with him without feeling that Caesar and Napoleon would have been 764 00:46:58,970 --> 00:47:02,680 children in his hands. He was silent and even pale for a moment and 765 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,400 then resumed. But whenever he gives advice, there's always 766 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,760 something as startling as an epigram and yet as practical as the bank of England. 767 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,440 I said to him, what disguise will hide me from the world? What can I 768 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,360 find more respectable than bishops and majors? He looked at me with his 769 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,080 large but indecipherable face. You want a safe disguise, do 770 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,720 you? You want a dress which will guarantee you harmless. A dress in which no 771 00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:27,950 one would ever look for a bomb. I nodded. 772 00:47:28,430 --> 00:47:32,030 He suddenly lifted his lion's voice. Why 773 00:47:32,110 --> 00:47:35,910 then dress up as an anarchist? You fool. He roared, so that the 774 00:47:35,910 --> 00:47:39,270 room shook. Nobody will ever expect you to do anything 775 00:47:39,270 --> 00:47:42,950 dangerous then. And he turned his broad back on me 776 00:47:42,950 --> 00:47:46,670 without another word. I took his advice and have never 777 00:47:46,670 --> 00:47:50,390 regretted it. I preached blood and murder to those women day and 778 00:47:50,390 --> 00:47:53,710 night. And by God, they would let me wheel 779 00:47:54,190 --> 00:47:55,390 their perambulators. 780 00:48:01,710 --> 00:48:04,590 This hide in plain sight is the. Yes. 781 00:48:05,390 --> 00:48:08,830 This is the crux of the man who was Thursday. 782 00:48:09,550 --> 00:48:13,244 Let's talk about anarchists. Okay. In 783 00:48:13,244 --> 00:48:16,979 the year of our Lord 2026, we proclaim that we have no 784 00:48:16,979 --> 00:48:20,799 anarchists. And yet. And yet, anarchists were a real 785 00:48:20,799 --> 00:48:24,360 problem in the late 19th century and well into the 786 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:28,008 middle quarter of the 20th century. Their actions 787 00:48:28,008 --> 00:48:31,481 inspired politicians, activists, feminists, 788 00:48:31,481 --> 00:48:34,956 artists, poets, philosophers, the crazy and of 789 00:48:34,956 --> 00:48:38,431 course, the power hungry. The assassination of 790 00:48:38,431 --> 00:48:42,253 Archduke Franz Ferdinand kicked off the first World 791 00:48:42,253 --> 00:48:45,729 War. And the trials of the murderers Leopold and 792 00:48:45,729 --> 00:48:49,030 Loeb. The crime of the century in 1924 further 793 00:48:49,030 --> 00:48:52,852 cemented the ideas, the ideas of burning everything 794 00:48:52,852 --> 00:48:56,239 down, of anarchists into popular culture. The 795 00:48:56,239 --> 00:49:00,050 analogy that we have to draw here is a very simple one. 796 00:49:00,530 --> 00:49:03,930 And anarchists back in the day were what terrorists are to the 797 00:49:03,930 --> 00:49:06,370 postmodern mind now. 798 00:49:07,570 --> 00:49:11,090 Men who have no other desire but to deconstruct or 799 00:49:11,090 --> 00:49:14,930 burn down the world around them. And when I was reading 800 00:49:14,930 --> 00:49:18,360 this book, quote came to me, very famous quote, actually, 801 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,480 from the 2008 film the Dark Knight. And 802 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,160 it's rather instructive here, so I'm going to read the whole quote. This is 803 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,840 where Alfred Pennyworth, played by the great Michael 804 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,240 Caine, and Bruce Wayne, played. Played by 805 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,320 Christian Bale, are watching a video of 806 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,680 this new villain that has shown up in Gotham 807 00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:43,080 City. A man who. 808 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,568 Chesterton would like this. A man who laughs as he burns everything down. 809 00:49:48,568 --> 00:49:52,247 And I quote from Bruce Wayne. Targeting me won't get their money 810 00:49:52,247 --> 00:49:56,065 back. He's talking about mobsters. I knew the mob wouldn't go down 811 00:49:56,065 --> 00:49:59,745 without a fight. But this is different.. They crossed the line, 812 00:49:59,745 --> 00:50:03,027 Alfred Pennyworth. You crossed the line first, sir. You 813 00:50:03,027 --> 00:50:06,060 squeezed them, you hammered them to the point of 814 00:50:06,060 --> 00:50:09,851 desperation. And in their desperation, they turned to a man 815 00:50:09,851 --> 00:50:13,338 they didn't fully understand, Bruce Wayne. Criminals 816 00:50:13,338 --> 00:50:16,901 aren't complicated, Alfred. You just have to figure out 817 00:50:16,901 --> 00:50:20,614 what he's after. Mr. Pennyworth. With all due respect, Mr. 818 00:50:20,620 --> 00:50:24,020 Wayne, perhaps this is a man you don't fully understand either. 819 00:50:25,060 --> 00:50:28,100 A long time ago, I was in Burma. My friends and I were working for 820 00:50:28,100 --> 00:50:31,180 the local government. They were trying to Buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing 821 00:50:31,180 --> 00:50:34,980 them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in 822 00:50:34,980 --> 00:50:38,730 a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So we went 823 00:50:38,730 --> 00:50:42,370 looking for the stones. But in six months, we 824 00:50:42,370 --> 00:50:46,170 never met anybody who traded with him. One day I 825 00:50:46,170 --> 00:50:49,650 saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. 826 00:50:50,530 --> 00:50:52,450 The bandit had been throwing them away. 827 00:50:54,370 --> 00:50:56,370 Bruce Wayne. So why steal them, 828 00:50:58,290 --> 00:51:01,010 Alfred? And this is the killer line here. 829 00:51:02,450 --> 00:51:05,990 Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because 830 00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:08,830 some men aren't looking for anything logical. 831 00:51:10,270 --> 00:51:13,750 Because some men aren't looking for anything 832 00:51:13,750 --> 00:51:17,150 logical like money. They can't be 833 00:51:17,150 --> 00:51:20,350 bought or bullied, reasoned or 834 00:51:20,350 --> 00:51:23,230 negotiated with some men. 835 00:51:24,910 --> 00:51:27,070 Some men just want to watch the world burn. 836 00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,960 Let me ask you a question. Go ahead. Do you think Osama bin Laden 837 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:37,800 really thought he was going to destroy America 838 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,560 by killing 3,000 people on 9 11? 839 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,800 Or he just wanted to watch those towers burn? I 840 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,400 think Osama bin Laden thought two things and that's a great question. 841 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,710 I think he thought two things just like the Joker or the Dark Knight thought 842 00:51:56,710 --> 00:52:00,350 two things. And I think they are twin tracks upon which the 843 00:52:00,350 --> 00:52:03,430 train of anarchy or terrorism or chaos runs. 844 00:52:05,590 --> 00:52:09,350 The first thing he thought was that the United States was a weak 845 00:52:09,350 --> 00:52:12,310 horse. He actually said this. They always think that. 846 00:52:12,630 --> 00:52:15,790 Always. And, and he didn't care that 847 00:52:15,790 --> 00:52:19,372 history has consistently proven that we 848 00:52:19,372 --> 00:52:23,164 are not. He didn't care about GDP. He didn't 849 00:52:23,164 --> 00:52:26,641 care about military prowess. He didn't 850 00:52:26,641 --> 00:52:30,224 care about any of the on paper reasons why 851 00:52:30,224 --> 00:52:33,490 we're not. He didn't care. He said the 852 00:52:33,490 --> 00:52:37,178 lesson that Osama Bin Laden was seeking to 853 00:52:37,178 --> 00:52:40,655 deliver on one rail of that track was the 854 00:52:40,655 --> 00:52:43,919 same lesson that the Viet Cong taught 855 00:52:43,919 --> 00:52:47,711 everybody back in the 60s and 70s that if you 856 00:52:47,711 --> 00:52:51,294 just culturally outlast the Americans, 857 00:52:51,294 --> 00:52:55,086 they will go home. And that makes them weak. 858 00:52:55,650 --> 00:52:59,490 That's the first thing Osama bin Laden thought. The second 859 00:52:59,650 --> 00:53:03,410 thing Osama Bin Laden thought was that. 860 00:53:05,010 --> 00:53:08,770 And again, because he's a fanatic. This is the fanaticism 861 00:53:09,810 --> 00:53:13,180 he thought. Islam has been around 862 00:53:14,380 --> 00:53:17,980 for 1400 years. 863 00:53:17,980 --> 00:53:21,620 By this point the Americans have only been 864 00:53:21,620 --> 00:53:25,100 around 200 and some odd years. Right? 865 00:53:25,820 --> 00:53:28,460 We're eternal, they're not. 866 00:53:29,500 --> 00:53:33,020 We win at the end of the day. So all we have to do is 867 00:53:33,020 --> 00:53:36,620 play an eternity game with weak willed and cowardly 868 00:53:36,620 --> 00:53:40,240 people and we'll win. And 869 00:53:40,240 --> 00:53:43,960 that's the mistake that the anarchists and the terrorists and the people who 870 00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,560 want to watch the world burn always make. Because fanatics 871 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,720 can never understand. They don't have a theory of mind of 872 00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:55,160 other people. They only have a Theory of mind of themselves. 873 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,000 And they project that. Narcissism. Oh, God, yes. 874 00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,680 Extreme narcissism. Oh God, yes. And I think it is also often 875 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,240 wrapped up in the artist's personality as well. I mean, everyone knows that 876 00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:09,710 Hitler was a failed artist and that was part of the thing that, 877 00:54:09,870 --> 00:54:13,670 that drove him. You know, Stalin was a failed 878 00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:17,470 theologian. He was, he was in the seminary for a while. The, the, 879 00:54:18,830 --> 00:54:21,950 I guess when you start shooting people, they, they move you out. That's the. They 880 00:54:21,950 --> 00:54:25,710 kind of, they kind of let you go. Maybe this isn't for you. Yeah, the. 881 00:54:27,070 --> 00:54:30,830 But. So the idea that there. But, 882 00:54:30,830 --> 00:54:34,520 but, but I think that that that culture clash or that 883 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:38,200 that misunderstanding goes both ways and that's, that's what makes that line from that movie 884 00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,880 so compelling because I think the civilized person has a great deal 885 00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,080 of difficulty understanding someone who 886 00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,120 really just wants to rip everything down. The civilization, 887 00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:54,200 fun of it, sometimes the civilized person. And this is what I. 888 00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,000 So I turned 21 889 00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:02,170 three weeks after September 11th. And 890 00:55:02,170 --> 00:55:04,970 a lot of guys from my generation, 20 years ago 891 00:55:06,650 --> 00:55:10,410 went to Afghanistan and went to Iraq. I know a 892 00:55:10,410 --> 00:55:13,130 lot of those guys. A lot of those guys are my friends. They went and 893 00:55:13,130 --> 00:55:16,570 they came back and they've told me what they saw when they went. 894 00:55:18,490 --> 00:55:21,530 And on the one hand, we can do the hand wringing thing that we always 895 00:55:21,530 --> 00:55:24,890 do in America about war. Like we're doing it right now as we go around 896 00:55:24,890 --> 00:55:28,610 and around with Iran, we're doing the hand wringing thing again. And 897 00:55:28,610 --> 00:55:31,970 by the way, that's one of the negative lessons that we learned about Vietnam. From 898 00:55:31,970 --> 00:55:35,690 Vietnam, we can always hand wring and scream about a quagmire. I got into an 899 00:55:35,690 --> 00:55:37,610 argument the other day about a guy who's like, this is just going to be 900 00:55:37,610 --> 00:55:41,290 a quagmire. I'm like, we're three days in or we're three weeks in. 901 00:55:41,930 --> 00:55:45,530 I know that's the astonishing thing to me where you 902 00:55:45,530 --> 00:55:49,170 say, well, we're winning in every single way you can win a war. 903 00:55:49,170 --> 00:55:52,730 And it's three weeks and you're already declaring it a 904 00:55:52,730 --> 00:55:55,650 quagmire. And you're already declaring it a quagmire. Number one, there's no boots on the 905 00:55:55,650 --> 00:55:59,380 ground. Ground. Number two, like, even if there are boots, if we do put 906 00:55:59,380 --> 00:56:03,100 boots on the ground, you can't. The conditions for a quagmire don't. 907 00:56:03,100 --> 00:56:06,820 What are you talking about? Because. And we're wandering far from Chesterton here, 908 00:56:06,820 --> 00:56:10,140 I realize, and we will get back. But I think at the back of that 909 00:56:10,140 --> 00:56:13,820 is the. Wouldn't it Be great if it was a quagmire. We 910 00:56:13,900 --> 00:56:17,576 want it to be a quagmire. Boy, that. Or the, or 911 00:56:17,576 --> 00:56:21,125 the, or the fanciful desire that exists on both the political 912 00:56:21,125 --> 00:56:24,813 right and the political left in our country for everything to be 913 00:56:24,813 --> 00:56:28,480 clean and effortless. Yes. And, and, and add to 914 00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:32,159 that also what we were talking about earlier, this bizarre 915 00:56:32,159 --> 00:56:35,764 world we find ourselves in 2024, where we want everything 916 00:56:35,764 --> 00:56:39,292 wrapped up in like an hour long TV show. Well, it's been an 917 00:56:39,292 --> 00:56:42,900 hour, so I think the war should be over. Jack, 918 00:56:43,140 --> 00:56:46,980 Jack Ryan should have gotten the bad guys. He should have all been shot. Didn't. 919 00:56:46,980 --> 00:56:50,820 Yeah, didn't they get the bad guy yet? Yeah, didn't, didn't the black. Yeah, didn't 920 00:56:50,820 --> 00:56:54,500 the black widow like beat up on all the 6 foot 5, 250 pound 921 00:56:54,500 --> 00:56:57,940 dudes with her legs and like, aren't we all done by this point? Like it's, 922 00:57:00,420 --> 00:57:03,921 this is all part and parcel of the ongoing cultural 923 00:57:03,921 --> 00:57:07,672 discussion you and I have been having. And we do want to 924 00:57:07,672 --> 00:57:11,505 get back to Chesterton. But I think, I guess to loop this 925 00:57:11,505 --> 00:57:15,256 back to Chesterton, it's important, I think if people 926 00:57:15,256 --> 00:57:19,090 read this book to realize anarchists in 1908, they were 927 00:57:19,090 --> 00:57:22,839 a real thing. They weren't just people with handlebar 928 00:57:22,839 --> 00:57:26,257 mustaches, sort of, you know, you know, Keystone 929 00:57:26,257 --> 00:57:29,841 Copping their way around the world. They would, you 930 00:57:29,841 --> 00:57:33,509 know, they. By the way, two, two American presidents 931 00:57:33,509 --> 00:57:37,343 were shot by anarchists. One died, one died right away, 932 00:57:37,343 --> 00:57:40,844 McKinley. And who was the other one was Cleveland. 933 00:57:41,170 --> 00:57:44,450 Was it Taft or Cleveland? I think it was Cleveland. It was Cleveland. Cleveland. 934 00:57:45,490 --> 00:57:48,810 And you know, whether was he an anarchist? Like he had an A on his 935 00:57:48,810 --> 00:57:51,930 forehead. I don't know about that. But he, you know, he didn't have a, he 936 00:57:51,930 --> 00:57:55,290 was one of these people who just wanted to rip down. 937 00:57:56,250 --> 00:57:59,690 He didn't have a coherent political 938 00:57:59,850 --> 00:58:03,210 philosophy that said I shoot the president and then good things happen. 939 00:58:03,530 --> 00:58:07,249 Right? No, it was just rip down the world 940 00:58:07,249 --> 00:58:11,010 around you. And there was 941 00:58:11,010 --> 00:58:12,970 a real thing to that. And 942 00:58:15,530 --> 00:58:17,130 I think Chesterton was. 943 00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:23,440 It's easy to see these people as buffoonish today, but you 944 00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:27,040 know, they were really dangerous. They did really dangerous things. 945 00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:31,440 They were, they were, they were dangerous men in those times. 946 00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,720 And the spirit of anarchy, which 947 00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:38,920 you'll appreciate this in some, in some form or another, which is the 948 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,600 spirit of Cain, right? From Genesis, you know, 949 00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:46,060 Genesis 5. Right. It's that same spirit. It's a spirit of 950 00:58:46,060 --> 00:58:49,900 envy, it's the spirit of jealousy, it's a spirit of resentment, it's a spirit 951 00:58:49,900 --> 00:58:53,620 of, of Entitlement. Osama bin Laden, to go back to this 952 00:58:53,620 --> 00:58:57,180 example for just a minute, believed he was entitled to the 953 00:58:57,180 --> 00:59:00,860 Islamic empire that he thought he deserved. And if he 954 00:59:00,860 --> 00:59:04,380 didn't have it, he was going to kick down every toy around him. There you 955 00:59:04,380 --> 00:59:08,215 go. Just like the Joker in the Dark Knight believes he's entitled to the 956 00:59:08,215 --> 00:59:11,985 chaos that he foments. He's entitled to that. Another great moment in 957 00:59:11,985 --> 00:59:15,820 movie is when the convicts are on the boat and the Joker, like, gives him 958 00:59:15,820 --> 00:59:19,590 a bomb to, like, blow up the boat with the civilians, or they could blow 959 00:59:19,590 --> 00:59:23,100 up their own boat. And the one convict. And this is sort of the. And 960 00:59:23,100 --> 00:59:26,740 this is where now you get into, like, progressive ideas of humanity 961 00:59:26,740 --> 00:59:30,445 versus actual humanity. You know, the convict on the boat gets up and 962 00:59:30,445 --> 00:59:34,215 takes the, the, you know, the, the explosive device away from the, the 963 00:59:34,215 --> 00:59:37,920 warden or whatever the trigger away from the warden on the boat who's 964 00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:41,480 getting ready to do the thing, right? Blow up the other. Blow up the other 965 00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:43,760 boat. And he's like, I'm gonna do what you should have done 10 minutes ago, 966 00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,160 right? And he sits down and he does nothing, right? He gets to be the 967 00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:49,840 hero in that moment, but because he recognizes that 968 00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:53,440 even though I'm a violent criminal, there's certain places I can't even go 969 00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:56,760 to, which is very much a progressive post 970 00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:00,440 20th century. Post, post 20th century. A progressive post 971 01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:04,160 World War II way of looking at the world, it's the. 972 01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,960 It's the outcome of the Nuremberg trials. We're the good guys. We put the 973 01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,640 bad guys on trial. We don't appeal to God because why would we do that? 974 01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:15,360 Instead, we appeal to a secular morality. Secular morality will 975 01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,360 judge you, but it won't provide any 976 01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:22,520 meaning because secular morality is based off of this 977 01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:26,160 reductionist mindset, this materialist, reductionist mindset. And 978 01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,920 Chesterton, in talking about Nietzsche, and this is 979 01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,720 what I hooked on in that section where he puts the words of 980 01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:37,320 Nietzsche into Gregory's 981 01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:41,080 mouth, the anarchist's mouth. He was drawing 982 01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:44,780 a philosophical line between. Drawing a philosophical line 983 01:00:44,780 --> 01:00:48,500 from nihilism directly to anarchy. If you believe in 984 01:00:48,500 --> 01:00:52,220 nothing, if you believe the Nietzschean lie, then 985 01:00:52,220 --> 01:00:55,980 the only clearing at the end of the path for you is burning 986 01:00:55,980 --> 01:00:59,820 the world down. That's the only clearing. Here's a interesting bit of 987 01:00:59,820 --> 01:01:02,300 trivia I want to lay on you. You might find this 988 01:01:03,900 --> 01:01:07,620 so in the. You mentioned Cain and this made me 989 01:01:07,620 --> 01:01:11,430 think of the Bible. Do you know the, the Bible story? Of course 990 01:01:11,430 --> 01:01:15,190 you do. The Noah Bible story where God comes to Noah and 991 01:01:15,190 --> 01:01:18,990 says the world is filled with lawless Violence, basically think 992 01:01:18,990 --> 01:01:22,030 of it as another term for anarchy and I'm going to send another flood and, 993 01:01:22,030 --> 01:01:25,230 you know, these are the things going to happen. Do you know what the word 994 01:01:25,230 --> 01:01:29,070 in Hebrew is for lawless violence? No, 995 01:01:29,070 --> 01:01:31,870 I don't. Hamas. 996 01:01:35,950 --> 01:01:39,310 The same term that the. 997 01:01:39,550 --> 01:01:43,270 Hamas, the, the Islamic movement. Now, that doesn't mean that 998 01:01:43,270 --> 01:01:47,030 in. That's not why they picked the term. It's an. They're. They, 999 01:01:47,030 --> 01:01:50,470 they came in there in Arabic, it's an acronym that stands for 1000 01:01:50,470 --> 01:01:53,990 Islamic Liberation Movement, but it happens to be the exact same 1001 01:01:53,990 --> 01:01:57,830 word. Now, if you don't see a little bit of a wow 1002 01:01:57,830 --> 01:02:01,590 moment in that, because that word's been around 1003 01:02:01,590 --> 01:02:02,830 for three, 500 years. 1004 01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,876 So there's, there is something going on in the, there's something 1005 01:02:09,876 --> 01:02:13,459 we're missing as modern Western folks, but I also think there's 1006 01:02:13,459 --> 01:02:17,245 something. Oh, no, no, no. I, I'm going to look that up, but I'm going 1007 01:02:17,245 --> 01:02:21,029 to go on this premise. So there's something we're missing as modern 1008 01:02:21,029 --> 01:02:24,612 Western folks. And I think guys like Jordan Peterson, Jonathan 1009 01:02:24,612 --> 01:02:28,262 Peugeot, there's a certain, there's a certain line of folks that 1010 01:02:28,262 --> 01:02:31,980 are trying to draw us back to it. And I think Chesterton was early on 1011 01:02:31,980 --> 01:02:35,630 this Jung was kind of in the middle. And now we've got other, other 1012 01:02:35,630 --> 01:02:39,349 folks. I already mentioned Peugeot, I mentioned Jordan Peterson 1013 01:02:39,349 --> 01:02:42,932 and others even to a certain degree, Lex Fridman, although he's 1014 01:02:42,932 --> 01:02:46,770 kind of shaky, but who are trying to bring us back to this thread. And 1015 01:02:46,770 --> 01:02:50,610 it's the thread that we keep missing. And the thread is the 1016 01:02:50,610 --> 01:02:54,410 thread of the logos, the thread of the word. Right. And so 1017 01:02:54,410 --> 01:02:58,230 the word can be used to, obviously to create, but the word can also 1018 01:02:58,230 --> 01:03:01,910 be used to, to your point about Hamas, interestingly enough, to 1019 01:03:01,910 --> 01:03:05,030 destroy. Words have meaning. 1020 01:03:06,470 --> 01:03:10,316 Words have meaning. Yes. And I think that, and 1021 01:03:10,316 --> 01:03:13,961 I think this does loop back to, to The Man Who 1022 01:03:13,961 --> 01:03:17,604 Was Thursday, I think, ultimately without 1023 01:03:17,604 --> 01:03:20,844 God, you know, as you say, you know, the 1024 01:03:20,844 --> 01:03:24,588 Nuremberg trials, we're going to punish you 1025 01:03:24,588 --> 01:03:28,433 because you violated some secular, you know, 1026 01:03:28,433 --> 01:03:32,278 morality that we're kind of inventing in real 1027 01:03:32,278 --> 01:03:36,023 time here, you know, as opposed to, you know, 1028 01:03:36,023 --> 01:03:39,769 you know, you have broken the, the law of God. 1029 01:03:39,769 --> 01:03:43,616 You know, as you point out, you know, the Nazis 1030 01:03:43,616 --> 01:03:47,462 could legitimately say, well, you made these 1031 01:03:47,462 --> 01:03:50,580 law, our laws said it was fine. Right. 1032 01:03:51,140 --> 01:03:54,940 So that's, and that's what Hannah Arendt. So we covered 1033 01:03:54,940 --> 01:03:58,700 Eichmann in Jerusalem, Hannah Arendt's reporting on the trial of Adolf 1034 01:03:58,700 --> 01:04:01,780 Eichmann in 1965, I believe it was 1035 01:04:02,420 --> 01:04:06,099 in, in Jerusalem, right, Where the Mossad Went. They 1036 01:04:06,099 --> 01:04:09,940 snatched him from some South American somewhere, Argentina, I think it 1037 01:04:09,940 --> 01:04:13,780 was. Yeah, they did snatch a grab, the Mossad did, which is, you know, 1038 01:04:13,780 --> 01:04:17,340 what they're notorious for, and. And put him on trial in the 1039 01:04:17,340 --> 01:04:20,300 dock in. In Jerusalem. And she 1040 01:04:20,300 --> 01:04:24,020 documented exactly what you're talking about. And one of the 1041 01:04:24,020 --> 01:04:27,380 points she made, which got her into a lot of trouble with 1042 01:04:27,780 --> 01:04:31,460 Holocaust survivors in America. And they. And actually, it's 1043 01:04:31,460 --> 01:04:35,260 interesting that the grandsons and granddaughters of Holocaust 1044 01:04:35,260 --> 01:04:38,660 survivors still have a problem with Hannah Arendt for bringing this up, but she's not 1045 01:04:38,820 --> 01:04:42,580 wrong. There was no appeal made to a 1046 01:04:42,580 --> 01:04:46,220 religious violation 1047 01:04:47,180 --> 01:04:50,860 or even a moral violation. The only 1048 01:04:51,020 --> 01:04:54,820 reason, not the only reason, but the reason why the Eichmann trial was 1049 01:04:54,820 --> 01:04:58,460 so interesting is because there was. There was a lot of tap dancing in Jerusalem, 1050 01:04:58,460 --> 01:05:01,980 of all places around that moral 1051 01:05:01,980 --> 01:05:05,740 violation. And instead we're merely going to punish this man 1052 01:05:05,820 --> 01:05:09,670 for the precedent or under the precedent set 1053 01:05:09,670 --> 01:05:12,950 at the Nuremberg trials, which is. Oh, you were just following 1054 01:05:12,950 --> 01:05:16,738 orders. Well, the orders were immoral. So we're going to punish 1055 01:05:16,738 --> 01:05:20,540 you for following immoral orders. You should have known better. And Adolf 1056 01:05:20,540 --> 01:05:24,281 Eichmann, and she writes about his psychology in Eichmann in Jerusalem. 1057 01:05:24,281 --> 01:05:27,594 Go listen to the episode we did last year. Go read the book. I would 1058 01:05:27,594 --> 01:05:31,274 encourage every leader here to read it, but she writes about how when you 1059 01:05:31,274 --> 01:05:34,893 look at Eichmann, if you do a psychological profile at Eichmann, he was 1060 01:05:34,893 --> 01:05:38,575 just a civil service bureaucrat. Yeah. He came across like a. Like a 1061 01:05:38,575 --> 01:05:42,244 mid-level marketing manager. Not. No, no, knock on marketing 1062 01:05:42,244 --> 01:05:44,960 managers. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let's be very, very, very clear. 1063 01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:48,400 Right. Listening to this. Let's be very, very clear. Like, 1064 01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:52,680 you know, when I look at Tom Libby, though, you know, 1065 01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:56,240 and the light catches him just so. Okay, all right. 1066 01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:01,200 I am so kidding. Stop, stop, 1067 01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:04,720 stop. Tom. Tom's a good man. Tom doesn't deserve that. 1068 01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:09,360 Tom's a great guy. The. The thing with 1069 01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:12,800 Eichmann is. And the thing. And by the way, I think this is going to 1070 01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:15,840 be a real problem with AI is 1071 01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:20,120 you will have orders from nowhere. Right. Orders with 1072 01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:23,920 nobody behind them. Right. Because no appeal can be made. 1073 01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:27,760 And thus decisions were made, but not by me. That's its 1074 01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:30,520 own form of. And I'm going to draw a parallel here. 1075 01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:34,775 Bureaucratized anarchy. Sure. And 1076 01:06:34,775 --> 01:06:38,574 how do you put AI in jail? How do 1077 01:06:38,574 --> 01:06:42,068 you fire AI? How do you solve 1078 01:06:42,068 --> 01:06:45,880 AI? How do you. How do you. We're very much consumed 1079 01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:49,480 with. How do we prevent AI from getting control of. Name your weapon 1080 01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:53,250 here or name your military system here. I'M less concerned about 1081 01:06:53,250 --> 01:06:56,770 that. I'm more concerned about how do you. 1082 01:06:57,810 --> 01:07:01,010 How do you prevent the human in the loop 1083 01:07:01,570 --> 01:07:05,410 from consciously abandoning accountability and responsibility? 1084 01:07:06,370 --> 01:07:09,974 Because it's just easier. Because we've 1085 01:07:09,974 --> 01:07:13,802 proven it over the last eight years. It's just easier 1086 01:07:13,802 --> 01:07:17,194 to sort of say, I was following orders, shrug my 1087 01:07:17,194 --> 01:07:21,020 shoulders, and be a mini anarchist myself. And we, by 1088 01:07:21,020 --> 01:07:24,759 the way, we have evidence of mini anarchism. We have 1089 01:07:24,759 --> 01:07:28,498 mini anarchism in our, in our families, we have mini 1090 01:07:28,498 --> 01:07:31,628 anarchism in our communities. We have many 1091 01:07:31,628 --> 01:07:35,367 anarchists in our workplaces. You know, we, we have 1092 01:07:35,367 --> 01:07:39,107 people who. Without a, a, a, a, a Chesterton's fence 1093 01:07:39,107 --> 01:07:42,499 of morality, right. Based on God, which is what 1094 01:07:42,499 --> 01:07:46,152 Chesterton would say you need to base it on whether 1095 01:07:46,152 --> 01:07:49,369 it's your Catholic conception, your Jewish 1096 01:07:49,369 --> 01:07:52,830 conception. He probably wouldn't be in favor of the Islamic 1097 01:07:52,830 --> 01:07:56,630 conception, but he would be probably begrudgingly be like, okay, at least it's something. You 1098 01:07:56,630 --> 01:07:59,870 have to have a conception of a higher transcendent power that puts a fence around 1099 01:07:59,870 --> 01:08:03,430 you. Otherwise, so, 1100 01:08:03,670 --> 01:08:06,670 you know, let it go. It's not what I do for a living. Right. I 1101 01:08:06,670 --> 01:08:09,910 work on a lot of grants for a lot of different projects. And I'm gonna, 1102 01:08:09,910 --> 01:08:13,610 I'm not gonna go into any detail because I 1103 01:08:13,610 --> 01:08:16,370 like to say I'm under so many NDAs, I can't even talk in my sleep. 1104 01:08:16,610 --> 01:08:20,450 But the. I can tell you that there 1105 01:08:20,450 --> 01:08:24,210 are a lot of projects that are currently trying to find their way 1106 01:08:24,210 --> 01:08:26,130 through the 1107 01:08:28,690 --> 01:08:32,490 how to use AI in a medical context in such a 1108 01:08:32,490 --> 01:08:36,290 way that it's not making, say, the ultimate 1109 01:08:36,290 --> 01:08:39,930 medical decision, but it kind of is. 1110 01:08:40,250 --> 01:08:43,930 Right? So. And you can see it. 1111 01:08:44,090 --> 01:08:47,730 You can see it eroding. In the time that I've been doing this, I'm watching 1112 01:08:47,730 --> 01:08:51,250 it eroding. There used to be a very fixed line, like it had to come 1113 01:08:51,250 --> 01:08:55,050 down to, essentially, is the AI giving you advice 1114 01:08:55,050 --> 01:08:58,610 like, gee, that sounds like a cough. Right? So 1115 01:08:58,610 --> 01:09:02,450 there's a lot of people have wearables, right? I don't happen to have 1116 01:09:02,450 --> 01:09:04,750 them. I have nothing against it. I just don't happen to wear one. 1117 01:09:06,430 --> 01:09:10,110 And that wearable is continually transmitting information about 1118 01:09:10,110 --> 01:09:13,234 the wearer. And sometimes it will say the, the 1119 01:09:13,234 --> 01:09:16,886 information will be, wow, your heart rate seems to be 1120 01:09:16,886 --> 01:09:20,621 like 260. That's really high. You might want to go to an 1121 01:09:20,621 --> 01:09:24,190 ER, you know, to see what's going. That's unusually 1122 01:09:24,190 --> 01:09:27,344 high. Yeah, yeah, that, that's for, for those 1123 01:09:27,344 --> 01:09:31,180 listening at home, that's high. Yeah. Yeah. All 1124 01:09:31,180 --> 01:09:35,020 right. So if your heart rate is 260 and you're listening to this, 1125 01:09:35,100 --> 01:09:38,860 go to the emergency room, turn this off and go directly. Turn 1126 01:09:38,860 --> 01:09:42,620 this off and go directly to the er. Right. But so the, 1127 01:09:42,620 --> 01:09:46,380 the, in that. And that sort of advice giving, which is generally 1128 01:09:46,380 --> 01:09:49,580 okay, and goes down a certain track through the fda, which is a 1129 01:09:49,660 --> 01:09:53,260 relatively easy track to get down. And then 1130 01:09:53,260 --> 01:09:57,060 there are ones where the, you might say, well, your heart rate 1131 01:09:57,060 --> 01:10:00,110 is 260, you should take this pill. 1132 01:10:00,670 --> 01:10:04,310 It's a little closer to telling you, giving you 1133 01:10:04,310 --> 01:10:07,310 something. And then finally it's not too far from that to 1134 01:10:08,270 --> 01:10:12,030 your heart rate is 260. And I can inject this 1135 01:10:12,030 --> 01:10:15,870 medication into you and I'm going to do it without you 1136 01:10:15,950 --> 01:10:18,350 saying yes or no, or a doctor saying yes or no. 1137 01:10:19,870 --> 01:10:23,710 That's doable today. It's not out there to my knowledge anyway, 1138 01:10:23,710 --> 01:10:27,380 but it's, you gotta wonder when we'll 1139 01:10:27,380 --> 01:10:30,140 cross that line. So 1140 01:10:31,420 --> 01:10:33,820 I am watching with trepidation 1141 01:10:35,820 --> 01:10:37,820 the development of 1142 01:10:39,660 --> 01:10:43,340 the casual acceptance of euthanasia. 1143 01:10:44,060 --> 01:10:46,860 Sure, yeah. With growing horror. 1144 01:10:48,700 --> 01:10:52,040 And it's one of those areas where 1145 01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:56,760 both the Jewish rabbi 1146 01:10:57,240 --> 01:11:01,080 and the Christian evangelists should make a common cause. 1147 01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:06,640 Because when the 1148 01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:10,160 AI is infused 1149 01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:13,960 with that sort of ability 1150 01:11:14,440 --> 01:11:17,520 to pattern, recognize 1151 01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:19,920 ruthlessly to an end 1152 01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:25,600 and can then advise humans in what to 1153 01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:28,640 do, humans with no 1154 01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:30,640 guardrails 1155 01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:36,720 are going to follow what the AI 1156 01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,880 says. And we talk a lot as Christians, 1157 01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:43,840 particularly in the last 50 years. We talked a lot 1158 01:11:44,930 --> 01:11:48,490 in the bookends of Roe v. Wade. We talked a lot about 1159 01:11:48,490 --> 01:11:52,130 abortion and beginning of life issues in this country. 1160 01:11:53,090 --> 01:11:56,850 And I believe it is becoming more critical. I 1161 01:11:56,850 --> 01:12:00,650 think it will become more critical over the next 25 years to begin 1162 01:12:00,650 --> 01:12:02,770 to talk about end of life issues. 1163 01:12:04,690 --> 01:12:08,290 What if this person doesn't even realize they're talking to an AI? Right. 1164 01:12:08,450 --> 01:12:12,010 And this is going to go directly to suffering. This is going to go 1165 01:12:12,010 --> 01:12:15,250 directly to meaning, this is going to go directly to 1166 01:12:15,970 --> 01:12:19,730 autonomy and agency. All of these areas 1167 01:12:20,050 --> 01:12:22,450 that make us really uncomfortable. 1168 01:12:24,610 --> 01:12:27,330 And we don't want to think about it, we don't want to talk publicly about. 1169 01:12:28,050 --> 01:12:31,490 And yet we have governments. I'm looking at you, Canada. 1170 01:12:31,810 --> 01:12:35,570 I'm looking at you. State of New York. I'm looking at you. Soon to 1171 01:12:35,570 --> 01:12:39,010 be Oregon and California. I'm looking directly at you all. Now 1172 01:12:39,940 --> 01:12:43,380 we have lawmakers who are saying, well, we'll just 1173 01:12:43,620 --> 01:12:47,380 sort of set the guard, set up the rails here and you all can do 1174 01:12:47,380 --> 01:12:50,940 it. I'm sure it will be fine. I'm sure it will be fine. And, and 1175 01:12:50,940 --> 01:12:54,700 that's just another example of, in my mind, it's just another Example of 1176 01:12:54,700 --> 01:12:56,500 anarchy. It's just another example of. 1177 01:13:00,180 --> 01:13:03,980 Chesterton opposed anarchy because, yes, anarchy comes 1178 01:13:03,980 --> 01:13:07,640 directly from nihilism at a social level. I 1179 01:13:07,640 --> 01:13:11,120 think he would also approach or oppose anarchy because 1180 01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:14,720 anarchy at a personal level leads 1181 01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:18,520 to the deception of autonomy, the deceptive idea that 1182 01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:22,240 you are an autonomous being that can make their own choices even out to death. 1183 01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:26,840 And it removes at the 1184 01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:30,520 smallest level the Tolkien level or even the CS 1185 01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:33,920 Lewis level. It removes from individuals the ability to behave 1186 01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:37,020 heroically. Why would I behave heroically if I can just 1187 01:13:38,300 --> 01:13:42,020 like on Futurama, that great cartoon from Matt Groening, I could just go 1188 01:13:42,020 --> 01:13:45,340 into a suicide booth on the street corner and just be gone. I don't think 1189 01:13:45,340 --> 01:13:47,620 we're far away from it. I've never watched. Is that term, Is that a thing 1190 01:13:47,620 --> 01:13:50,020 in it? Oh, yeah, that was a thing in the cartoon. Yeah. Gray and called 1191 01:13:50,020 --> 01:13:53,740 it like, like 15, 20 years ago now. Yeah, that's one of the jokes in 1192 01:13:53,740 --> 01:13:57,180 the. That's one of the jokes in that cartoon. You can just. There's suicide booths 1193 01:13:57,180 --> 01:14:00,860 on every corner and if you want, you just. You just go, oh, my gosh. 1194 01:14:00,860 --> 01:14:04,700 Yeah, oh, dear. Yeah, oh dear. Well, but I mean, we're not 1195 01:14:04,700 --> 01:14:07,140 that far away from. We're not that far away from that conception 1196 01:14:08,340 --> 01:14:11,380 and being advised and nudged by AI. Right. 1197 01:14:11,940 --> 01:14:15,300 Isn't there a booth that you could. I'm not making this up. 1198 01:14:15,620 --> 01:14:19,140 That will basically fill with nitrogen gas and kill you. 1199 01:14:20,420 --> 01:14:23,780 I think that's. I think someone in suicide, someone in Switzerland died 1200 01:14:24,660 --> 01:14:27,270 from that matter. Well, and I'm seeing. 1201 01:14:28,470 --> 01:14:31,990 I don't want to go too far down this road, but I'm seeing that it's 1202 01:14:31,990 --> 01:14:34,710 just, It's a. It's a concern that I have. It's a growing concern. And when 1203 01:14:34,710 --> 01:14:37,030 I read books like the man who Was Thursday, 1204 01:14:38,390 --> 01:14:41,990 and then I look at how little we have sort of updated our moral code 1205 01:14:42,790 --> 01:14:45,030 in the last 120some odd years, 1206 01:14:46,790 --> 01:14:50,550 but we've updated our technology to make us. To help us 1207 01:14:50,550 --> 01:14:54,250 do immoral things faster and better. Right, 1208 01:14:54,810 --> 01:14:57,570 and where is that morality going to come from? And who is going to speak 1209 01:14:57,570 --> 01:15:00,890 up for it? And that, of course, is the role of the apologist. That's. That's 1210 01:15:00,890 --> 01:15:04,650 the role of Chesterton is speak up for that morality and, 1211 01:15:05,290 --> 01:15:09,130 and, and to. Well, again, I'm going 1212 01:15:09,130 --> 01:15:12,730 to bring up William F. Buckley here to stand to thwart history and yell stop. 1213 01:15:14,570 --> 01:15:16,170 As loudly as you possibly can. 1214 01:15:18,950 --> 01:15:22,390 All right, back to the book. Back to. Back to the book. The man who 1215 01:15:22,390 --> 01:15:26,190 Was Thursday. So I'm going to go to chapter five The 1216 01:15:26,190 --> 01:15:29,870 Feast of Fear. The Feast of Fear is an interesting little 1217 01:15:29,870 --> 01:15:33,590 Bond Mott where Sime goes 1218 01:15:33,590 --> 01:15:37,030 to a breakfast, a breakfast of anarchists 1219 01:15:37,590 --> 01:15:41,390 that is being held in a restaurant on 1220 01:15:41,390 --> 01:15:44,910 a balcony overlooking Leicester Leicester 1221 01:15:44,910 --> 01:15:48,170 Square. I'm probably mispronouncing that terribly. And 1222 01:15:51,050 --> 01:15:54,650 he sees several archetypes 1223 01:15:54,650 --> 01:15:58,450 while he's at this breakfast. And 1224 01:15:58,450 --> 01:16:02,050 I want to run through a few of them to 1225 01:16:02,050 --> 01:16:05,690 sort of draw a. Draw a parallel. 1226 01:16:09,210 --> 01:16:12,530 At one corner of the square they're projected a kind of angle of a prosperous 1227 01:16:12,530 --> 01:16:16,290 but quiet hotel, the bulk of which belonged to a street. Behind in the wall 1228 01:16:16,290 --> 01:16:19,830 there was one large French window, probably the window of a large coff room. And 1229 01:16:19,830 --> 01:16:23,390 outside this window, almost literally overhanging the square, was a formidably buttressed 1230 01:16:23,390 --> 01:16:27,070 balcony big enough to contain a dining table. In fact, it did contain a 1231 01:16:27,070 --> 01:16:30,870 dining table, or more strictly, a breakfast table. And round the breakfast table, 1232 01:16:31,670 --> 01:16:34,750 glowing in the sunlight at evidence to the street, were a group of noisy and 1233 01:16:34,750 --> 01:16:38,510 talkative men, all dressed in the insolence of fashion, with 1234 01:16:38,510 --> 01:16:42,190 white waistcoats and expensive buttonholes. Some of their jokes can almost 1235 01:16:42,190 --> 01:16:45,870 be heard across the square. Then the grave secretary gave his 1236 01:16:45,870 --> 01:16:49,580 unnatural smile and saim knew that this boisterous breakfast party was 1237 01:16:49,580 --> 01:16:52,380 the secret conclave of the European 1238 01:16:52,620 --> 01:16:56,460 dynamiters. Then, as time continued 1239 01:16:56,460 --> 01:16:58,900 to stare at them, he saw something that he had not seen before. He had 1240 01:16:58,900 --> 01:17:02,540 not seen it literally because it was too large to see. 1241 01:17:03,340 --> 01:17:06,260 At the nearest end of the balcony, blocking up a great part of the perspective, 1242 01:17:06,260 --> 01:17:09,620 was the back of a great mountain of a man. When Sime had seen him, 1243 01:17:09,620 --> 01:17:12,180 his first thought was that the weight of him must break down the balcony of 1244 01:17:12,180 --> 01:17:15,800 stone. His vastness did not lie only in the fact that he was abnormally tall 1245 01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:19,520 and quite incredibly fat. This man was 1246 01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:23,280 planned enormously in his original proportions, like a statue carved 1247 01:17:23,280 --> 01:17:27,000 deliberately, as colossal. His head, crowned with white hair, as 1248 01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:30,000 seen from behind, looked bigger than a head ought to be. 1249 01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:34,320 The ears that stood out from look larger than human ears. 1250 01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:38,080 He was enlarged terribly to scale, and the sense of size 1251 01:17:38,080 --> 01:17:41,800 was so staggering that when Symes saw him, all the other figures seemed 1252 01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:45,480 quite suddenly to dwindle and become dwarfish. They were still 1253 01:17:45,480 --> 01:17:49,080 sitting there as before, with their flowers and frock coats. But now it looked as 1254 01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:51,800 if the big man was entertaining five children to tea. 1255 01:17:54,280 --> 01:17:58,000 Simon never thought of asking whether the monstrous man who almost filled and broke the 1256 01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:01,160 balcony was the great president of whom the others stood in awe. He knew it 1257 01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:04,560 was so with an unaccountable measure, with an unaccountable but 1258 01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:08,400 instantaneous certainty. Simon Dean was one of those men who were open to all 1259 01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:12,240 the more nameless psychological influences In a degree a little dangerous to mental 1260 01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:15,960 health. Utterly devoid of fear and physical dangers, he was a great 1261 01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:19,480 deal too sensitive to the smell of spiritual evil. 1262 01:18:20,440 --> 01:18:24,000 Twice already that night, little unmeaning things had peeped out at him almost 1263 01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:27,720 pruriently and given him a sense of drawing nearer and nearer to the headquarters of 1264 01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:31,440 hell. And this sense became overpowering as 1265 01:18:31,440 --> 01:18:33,880 he drew nearer to the great president. 1266 01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:39,260 Then I'm going to skip down here for just a second. In the presence of 1267 01:18:39,260 --> 01:18:43,060 the president, the whole company looked sufficiently commonplace. Nothing about them caught the eye 1268 01:18:43,060 --> 01:18:46,540 at first, except that by the President's caprice they had been dressed up with a 1269 01:18:46,540 --> 01:18:49,900 festive respectability which gave the meal the look of a wedding breakfast. 1270 01:18:50,300 --> 01:18:54,140 One man indeed stood out at even a superficial glance. He, at least, 1271 01:18:54,140 --> 01:18:57,860 was the common or garden dynamiter. He wore indeed the 1272 01:18:57,860 --> 01:19:00,940 high white collar and satin tie that were the uniform of the occasion. But out 1273 01:19:00,940 --> 01:19:04,460 of this collar there sprang a head quite unmanageable and quite unmistakable, 1274 01:19:04,540 --> 01:19:08,300 a bewildering bush of brown hair and a beard 1275 01:19:08,300 --> 01:19:12,020 that almost obscured the eyes like those of a sky terrier. But the eyes 1276 01:19:12,020 --> 01:19:15,380 did look out of the tangle, and they were the sad eyes of some Russian 1277 01:19:15,460 --> 01:19:19,060 serf. The effect of this figure was not terribly like that of the president, but 1278 01:19:19,060 --> 01:19:22,820 it had every diableri that can come from the utterly grotesque. 1279 01:19:23,460 --> 01:19:26,540 If out of that stiff tie and collar there had come abruptly the head of 1280 01:19:26,540 --> 01:19:30,180 a cat or dog, it could not have been a 1281 01:19:30,180 --> 01:19:32,590 more idiotic contrast. 1282 01:19:34,350 --> 01:19:37,630 And he goes through every single one of the dynamiters 1283 01:19:39,550 --> 01:19:43,230 and describes their physicality. And there's a. There's a link 1284 01:19:44,350 --> 01:19:47,950 that Chesterton is making here from physicality and physical 1285 01:19:47,950 --> 01:19:51,150 structure all the way into respectability. 1286 01:19:51,550 --> 01:19:53,790 And this is an interesting point because 1287 01:19:56,270 --> 01:19:59,630 Chesterton was a classicist, just like every great Englishman was 1288 01:20:00,330 --> 01:20:03,770 of his era. And we as Americans in the 21st 1289 01:20:03,850 --> 01:20:07,610 century claim that we do not see class, claim 1290 01:20:07,610 --> 01:20:11,130 that we do not acknowledge class, and yet we are all classicists 1291 01:20:12,250 --> 01:20:15,610 to one level or another. Yeah, sure, 1292 01:20:15,929 --> 01:20:19,610 Bill Gates runs around wearing a grandpa sweater and, you know, 1293 01:20:19,610 --> 01:20:23,290 chino slacks, right? But no one's going to mistake 1294 01:20:23,290 --> 01:20:26,170 him for being your grandpa wearing chino slacks. 1295 01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:32,120 And with that being said, the great thing of 1296 01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:35,840 America, the great thing that we can construct on, I think, is that 1297 01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:39,120 everybody here wants to be middle class, but no one in 1298 01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:42,720 Chesterton time wanted to be. Everyone wanted to be upper 1299 01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:46,440 class. And that is where anarchists hid. They 1300 01:20:46,440 --> 01:20:50,160 hid in the upper classes, which, of 1301 01:20:50,160 --> 01:20:53,570 course, Chesterton's making. Did they hide there or did the upper classes produce them? 1302 01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:58,400 Well, I think Chesterton's offering the question. I think 1303 01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:02,120 he's, he's, he's, he's asserting a problem with 1304 01:21:02,120 --> 01:21:05,840 class and money. And that's the chicken or the 1305 01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:09,559 egg question that he doesn't know the answer to. I mean, you look 1306 01:21:09,559 --> 01:21:12,920 at the Bolsheviks, right? A lot of them were intellectual 1307 01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:16,600 bourgeoisie types. They were not the proletariat. Correct. 1308 01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:20,240 Yeah. There's. Do you know the Basketball Diaries by Jim Carroll? Did you ever read 1309 01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:23,760 that? Yeah, they made it into a movie. There's a great line in that somewhere 1310 01:21:23,760 --> 01:21:27,320 where Jim Carroll, for like five seconds thinks he's a 1311 01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:30,680 communist. And he comes to his father and he says, I'm a proletariat. And the 1312 01:21:30,680 --> 01:21:34,400 father says, I'm the proletariat. And he goes, and I think those guys 1313 01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:38,000 are crazy. He goes, let me tell you who the 1314 01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:40,600 proletariat is. This guy right here. This guy right here. 1315 01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:46,120 So I think that partially what produces your anarchists 1316 01:21:47,400 --> 01:21:51,110 and to a certain extent your terrorists, you know, I'm thinking maybe a little bit 1317 01:21:51,110 --> 01:21:54,630 about like Patty Hearst here is privilege in a way, because 1318 01:21:55,030 --> 01:21:58,750 material stuff is boring. In the end, you get bored. You 1319 01:21:58,750 --> 01:22:02,150 know, it's. There's only so much TV you can watch. There's only so many, 1320 01:22:02,310 --> 01:22:05,750 you know, I guess, you know, 1321 01:22:05,910 --> 01:22:09,110 great, you know, cars you can drive and 1322 01:22:09,830 --> 01:22:13,350 so on and so forth. And there's a hollowness at the 1323 01:22:13,350 --> 01:22:16,850 center of it. And I think people seek to 1324 01:22:17,170 --> 01:22:20,210 fill that hollowness. I think this is one of the. I know we keep getting 1325 01:22:20,210 --> 01:22:24,010 dragged back to the modern world. We're trying to go back to 1908, but one 1326 01:22:24,010 --> 01:22:27,370 of the horrible things about the modern world is people are filled with 1327 01:22:27,370 --> 01:22:31,090 entertainment all the time and they're bored silly, you know, and 1328 01:22:31,330 --> 01:22:35,130 they're looking, they almost don't know anymore what it is 1329 01:22:35,130 --> 01:22:38,450 to feel anything. And so they go to these ridiculous 1330 01:22:38,450 --> 01:22:42,170 extremes, like, I'm going to blow something up just because it 1331 01:22:42,170 --> 01:22:45,610 sort of, you know, I'm gonna feel something when I do it. And. 1332 01:22:46,890 --> 01:22:50,530 But even back in the beginning of the 20th century, you 1333 01:22:50,530 --> 01:22:54,330 tended to find, you know, your anarchists and 1334 01:22:54,330 --> 01:22:58,090 your revolutionaries and your bomb throwers kind of among 1335 01:22:58,090 --> 01:23:01,610 the upper classes and. 1336 01:23:02,170 --> 01:23:05,730 But you're bang on about America today. I mean, I don't think anybody 1337 01:23:05,730 --> 01:23:09,540 really wants to be, except for a very few 1338 01:23:10,180 --> 01:23:13,780 wants to be. No. You know, I like to say the, the, the goal is 1339 01:23:13,780 --> 01:23:17,500 rich, not famous. Right. You don't want to be known. Right. The edge of the 1340 01:23:17,500 --> 01:23:20,420 Internet. I think Fame is a curse. So, 1341 01:23:21,460 --> 01:23:23,460 yeah, yeah, I think you're onto something there. 1342 01:23:25,380 --> 01:23:29,220 And, you know, said on a podcast, everyone. Everyone. Yeah, 1343 01:23:29,220 --> 01:23:32,820 that's right. Yeah. Well, so, well, 1344 01:23:32,820 --> 01:23:36,660 there's fame and then there's. There's influence, right? That's, that's, 1345 01:23:36,660 --> 01:23:40,450 that's the distinction with the difference, right? So I'm not 1346 01:23:40,450 --> 01:23:44,170 podcasting to be an influencer. I'm not even podcasting to be famous. I'm 1347 01:23:44,170 --> 01:23:48,010 podcasting because I like having interesting conversations with people and 1348 01:23:48,250 --> 01:23:51,370 having other people listen in on those and get some insights and move on with 1349 01:23:51,370 --> 01:23:53,130 the rest of their lives. That's why we're here. 1350 01:23:55,610 --> 01:23:59,290 I think that. And it's interesting when you talk about anything 1351 01:23:59,290 --> 01:24:03,050 that's an ism or an ist, a theory or an idea 1352 01:24:03,700 --> 01:24:06,340 that always captures people with enough 1353 01:24:07,940 --> 01:24:11,740 wealth to be comfortable. So the example that proves the 1354 01:24:11,740 --> 01:24:15,380 rule is Virginia Woolf, right? Virginia Woolf was wealthy enough 1355 01:24:15,700 --> 01:24:19,060 to be a feminist and to complain 1356 01:24:19,379 --> 01:24:22,820 and to deconstruct and all of that. 1357 01:24:24,900 --> 01:24:28,660 And of course, she was wealthy enough to resist attempts to improve 1358 01:24:28,660 --> 01:24:32,410 her talent and resist critiques of her talent. 1359 01:24:33,850 --> 01:24:36,090 And, and you can see sort of 1360 01:24:37,530 --> 01:24:41,090 not really an archetype, but the beginning of the archetype of the Virginia 1361 01:24:41,090 --> 01:24:44,410 Woolf feminist in Ford Maddox Ford's 1362 01:24:44,490 --> 01:24:48,210 parades end, right? And he ran 1363 01:24:48,210 --> 01:24:52,050 into a lot of those folks. So did Hemingway, by the way. A 1364 01:24:52,050 --> 01:24:55,900 lot of those people, right. And so that 1365 01:24:55,900 --> 01:24:59,300 specific type that you're talking about, even today in our era, 1366 01:24:59,540 --> 01:25:03,260 resists critique, resists correction, and 1367 01:25:03,260 --> 01:25:07,100 has enough money to be able to. Rob Henderson talks about this. The 1368 01:25:07,100 --> 01:25:10,620 great blogger and good writer talks about 1369 01:25:10,620 --> 01:25:14,260 luxury beliefs. They have enough money to be able to 1370 01:25:14,260 --> 01:25:17,940 adopt these beliefs of how the world. You can believe 1371 01:25:17,940 --> 01:25:21,580 crazy things, Right? Because you never experience the consequences of the crazy 1372 01:25:21,580 --> 01:25:25,330 things. The problem is, and this is what Chesterton objects to 1373 01:25:25,330 --> 01:25:28,850 in the anarchists, is that the average 1374 01:25:28,850 --> 01:25:32,370 people don't have the protections that you have based on your 1375 01:25:32,370 --> 01:25:36,010 wealth. And so what happens when you throw a bomb is an 1376 01:25:36,010 --> 01:25:39,570 average person gets blown up. So going back to just one more time, 1377 01:25:39,570 --> 01:25:43,410 Osama bin Laden came from wealth, right? 1378 01:25:43,890 --> 01:25:47,330 Not a surprise. Not a surprise. Crazy wealth. 1379 01:25:47,330 --> 01:25:51,080 Yeah, crazy wealth, right? Most of 1380 01:25:51,080 --> 01:25:54,880 the folks. And of course, wealth is, Is, Is proximal, right? Most 1381 01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:58,400 of the folks who are, quite frankly, the true believers in 1382 01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:02,240 Hamas or any other anarchist movement, 1383 01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:06,960 those people have enough money to survive. And 1384 01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:10,560 they're not living in Gaza, by the way. They're living in Qatar. 1385 01:26:10,640 --> 01:26:14,160 Yeah. So there was, There was something about this, 1386 01:26:15,280 --> 01:26:18,320 and I can't go searching through the book right now, but he was talking about 1387 01:26:18,320 --> 01:26:22,150 exactly that, that Chesterton was where essentially, 1388 01:26:22,310 --> 01:26:25,950 you know, the, the people that pay the price for these. He didn't call them 1389 01:26:25,950 --> 01:26:29,470 luxury beliefs, but is the average. Is the. The average 1390 01:26:29,470 --> 01:26:33,190 person. Right. I'll find it. Maybe if I don't find it here 1391 01:26:33,430 --> 01:26:36,870 while we're talking, I'll find it later and I'll send it to you. But 1392 01:26:38,550 --> 01:26:42,270 I, you know, you also see this quite a bit in, in, you 1393 01:26:42,270 --> 01:26:46,070 know, the terrorist groups of the. The 60s and 70s, which were 1394 01:26:46,070 --> 01:26:49,350 before your time. But, but, you know, I was scared of every time I got 1395 01:26:49,350 --> 01:26:53,190 on an airplane, even as a kid. Right. They were. 1396 01:26:53,670 --> 01:26:57,350 The interesting things is they all started off as sort of some kind of 1397 01:26:57,350 --> 01:27:00,630 national or some, what they would say social justice or national 1398 01:27:00,950 --> 01:27:04,310 justice movement. And they all ended up being criminal gangs in the end. 1399 01:27:04,390 --> 01:27:08,190 Chesterton talks about this at some point that it just becomes. It just 1400 01:27:08,190 --> 01:27:11,710 becomes mere criminality in the end. You know, the 1401 01:27:11,710 --> 01:27:15,390 IRA started on what. I'm not versed enough in 1402 01:27:15,390 --> 01:27:19,220 the politics of England and Ireland to say whether they were just or 1403 01:27:19,220 --> 01:27:23,060 not just. I'm not, I'm not the person to, To. To get 1404 01:27:23,060 --> 01:27:26,740 into all that. But I think by the end it was more like, 1405 01:27:26,740 --> 01:27:30,460 well, we need money, so let's go rob a bank, you know, as opposed to, 1406 01:27:30,700 --> 01:27:34,500 you know, that bank is. We're robbing that bank because it's, you 1407 01:27:34,500 --> 01:27:37,180 know, the bank of England or, you know, something. Something like that. 1408 01:27:38,460 --> 01:27:40,860 It's in here somewhere. I saw it and I meant to mark it, and of 1409 01:27:40,860 --> 01:27:44,430 course I didn't. That's okay. You'll search the book. As I bring up 1410 01:27:44,670 --> 01:27:47,870 an additional sort of example to back this up. Frank Miller, 1411 01:27:48,590 --> 01:27:51,710 who was the comic book writer back in the 1980s and artist, 1412 01:27:52,110 --> 01:27:55,630 he did a bunch of work on Daredevil. He also resurrected Batman 1413 01:27:56,030 --> 01:27:59,790 in the 80s, which eventually became the Batman that we now know as 1414 01:27:59,790 --> 01:28:03,270 Batman, the grim, gritty Batman. That was Frank Miller's 1415 01:28:03,270 --> 01:28:06,750 contribution to the mythos. But. Oh, yeah, 1416 01:28:07,310 --> 01:28:09,390 but in the Dark Knight Returns, 1417 01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:15,280 Frank Miller talks about, or he sets up a scene right, in that. 1418 01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:19,000 In that graphic novel where Superman is 1419 01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:22,840 reflecting, by the way, Superman is a government agent fully, completely 1420 01:28:22,840 --> 01:28:26,680 co opted by the US Government. But, but Superman 1421 01:28:26,680 --> 01:28:30,320 is reflecting. Clark Kent is reflecting on the. 1422 01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:33,880 The subcommittee hearings that were held about superheroes, right, that 1423 01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:37,570 eventually stripped all the superheroes of their identity, right? And they 1424 01:28:37,570 --> 01:28:40,930 called up Bruce Wayne, right? And as 1425 01:28:40,930 --> 01:28:44,210 Superman thinks in, in retrospect, you know, Bruce 1426 01:28:44,370 --> 01:28:48,170 sat up there, as Bruce Wayne would do, and the 1427 01:28:48,170 --> 01:28:51,970 senators asked him, you know, what's the difference between you and a 1428 01:28:51,970 --> 01:28:55,170 criminal? And I'M paraphrasing this. You can go find it. The Dark Knight Returns. It's 1429 01:28:55,170 --> 01:28:59,010 a great little sequence. And Superman thinks Bruce laughed his 1430 01:28:59,010 --> 01:29:02,750 scary laugh like he always does. And Bruce said, senator, 1431 01:29:03,300 --> 01:29:07,140 we've always been criminals. Like we're never 1432 01:29:07,140 --> 01:29:10,940 not. And then he walked out of that Senate subcommittee. And he could 1433 01:29:10,940 --> 01:29:14,660 have made all the moms and the kids happy, but that Bruce wasn't going to 1434 01:29:14,660 --> 01:29:16,980 do that. And then he got into his race car. The right thing to say, 1435 01:29:16,980 --> 01:29:20,380 or the. Or what they wanted to hear. Right? That's right. And Bruce got into 1436 01:29:20,380 --> 01:29:23,140 his race car and drove away. Right. 1437 01:29:23,940 --> 01:29:27,780 And that's the fundamental difference between. And this is what we. 1438 01:29:27,780 --> 01:29:31,580 In the Dark Knight quote that I brought forward. Right. If 1439 01:29:31,580 --> 01:29:35,420 you're going to go battle with anarchists, if you're going to go 1440 01:29:35,980 --> 01:29:39,820 battle with demons. Right. If you're going. To. Let's 1441 01:29:39,820 --> 01:29:43,220 go on Nietzsche for just a minute. If you're going to stare into the abyss 1442 01:29:43,220 --> 01:29:46,980 and allow the abyss to stare back through you, if you're going to actually do 1443 01:29:46,980 --> 01:29:50,540 that, not philosophically, but practically, well, 1444 01:29:51,580 --> 01:29:54,940 you have to get down in the dirt with these people. And again, 1445 01:29:55,470 --> 01:29:59,310 this is where, as when I'm thinking about the dark side of leadership, 1446 01:29:59,310 --> 01:30:03,070 and I guess maybe that's the sub. The subtext of this episode today, 1447 01:30:03,550 --> 01:30:07,150 Chesterton understood what the dark side of that was and what that 1448 01:30:07,150 --> 01:30:10,670 actually meant, as anybody does who understands what good 1449 01:30:10,670 --> 01:30:14,110 is. So in order to understand good, you have to understand 1450 01:30:14,270 --> 01:30:17,990 evil and you have to be willing to accept what evil is. And I think 1451 01:30:17,990 --> 01:30:20,510 a lot of people in our time play footsie with evil, 1452 01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:25,520 just like the Germans played footsie with the Russians about oil and natural gas for 1453 01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:28,880 years and years. And they were somehow magically shocked that Vladimir Putin invaded 1454 01:30:28,880 --> 01:30:32,720 Ukraine and their. Their natural gas supply got cut off. You were playing 1455 01:30:32,720 --> 01:30:36,080 footsie with him for 15 years. What did you. Who did you think you were 1456 01:30:36,080 --> 01:30:39,640 dealing with? Like, what are we talking about? But average people 1457 01:30:41,080 --> 01:30:44,440 don't. They're unwilling to accept 1458 01:30:45,640 --> 01:30:48,290 that there's that level of depravity 1459 01:30:49,330 --> 01:30:52,970 inside of people. And then here's the other thing they are 1460 01:30:52,970 --> 01:30:56,650 unwilling to accept. And maybe they should be unwilling to accept. I'm not saying 1461 01:30:56,650 --> 01:31:00,450 average people have to go this far, but you have to 1462 01:31:00,450 --> 01:31:04,170 be. You have to be willing to accept what it is that 1463 01:31:04,170 --> 01:31:07,730 it takes to actually root out that depravity. Right. And 1464 01:31:07,970 --> 01:31:11,770 we're under this, our impression in the west that good will win because 1465 01:31:11,770 --> 01:31:15,470 it's so easy on tv. The good guys always win. Yeah. That 1466 01:31:15,470 --> 01:31:18,990 it's really costless and Bloodless and doesn't involve actual 1467 01:31:18,990 --> 01:31:22,750 sacrifice. And that, you know, it's. It's. 1468 01:31:22,750 --> 01:31:26,390 It's quite astonishing. And in some ways, you could almost argue that that is 1469 01:31:27,510 --> 01:31:31,270 the way that we are being attacked 1470 01:31:31,590 --> 01:31:35,030 is essentially our own values used 1471 01:31:35,190 --> 01:31:38,310 to just do Jiu Jitsu us on us in a way. 1472 01:31:39,430 --> 01:31:43,230 Right. And it's. Yeah, 1473 01:31:43,230 --> 01:31:46,670 it's. It's the. The. I. I have. I have one. 1474 01:31:48,510 --> 01:31:52,190 One political maxim that, that, that I, I kind of 1475 01:31:52,190 --> 01:31:55,750 keep to, you know, in the back of my mind at all times. And it 1476 01:31:55,750 --> 01:31:59,310 goes like this. If someone says they want to kill you, believe them. 1477 01:32:00,030 --> 01:32:03,830 Right? Yeah. Right. It's very simple. They do want to kill you. They do 1478 01:32:03,830 --> 01:32:07,230 want to kill you. Yeah. Let me kill you. That's right. Yeah, they do. They're 1479 01:32:07,230 --> 01:32:10,970 not just expressing some cultural difference. No. 1480 01:32:10,970 --> 01:32:14,810 They want you dead. They want you dead. They want you dead. Yeah. And 1481 01:32:14,810 --> 01:32:17,970 actually, I, I have a very. I agree with that political 1482 01:32:17,970 --> 01:32:21,010 maxim and. And not only. And I go a step further. 1483 01:32:21,570 --> 01:32:25,410 Okay, well, I'll accommodate you, but I'm not gonna. Gonna 1484 01:32:25,410 --> 01:32:29,170 just. And it's interesting that you brought up Jiu Jitsu. I do Jiu Jitsu, Right. 1485 01:32:29,170 --> 01:32:32,930 We're doing Jiu Jitsu for many years. And one of the two 1486 01:32:32,930 --> 01:32:36,730 principles that's sort of involved in that hobby, such as it 1487 01:32:36,730 --> 01:32:40,070 was, were because I don't compete professionally. I have zero interest in doing that. 1488 01:32:40,390 --> 01:32:44,070 I like. I like challenging the professionals and giving them fits, 1489 01:32:44,230 --> 01:32:47,590 but I don't feel like it needs to go compete myself. 1490 01:32:47,910 --> 01:32:51,630 But what you find out in. I 1491 01:32:51,630 --> 01:32:54,070 learned a lot of lessons in Jiu Jitsu, and I always talk about at least 1492 01:32:54,070 --> 01:32:57,510 once on the show every episode because it's so. Been so impactful 1493 01:32:57,670 --> 01:33:01,470 and here we are. But you have to get 1494 01:33:01,470 --> 01:33:04,800 in close, and the enemy gets a vote. 1495 01:33:05,440 --> 01:33:08,600 And if you're afraid to. If you're afraid to get in close, and if you're 1496 01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:12,400 afraid that if you want it to all work out optimally 1497 01:33:12,400 --> 01:33:15,920 for yourself, you're foolish. Yeah. You're just 1498 01:33:15,920 --> 01:33:18,800 foolish. Right. So, like, I'll see. 1499 01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:22,400 This drives my wife crazy, but people will talk about. 1500 01:33:24,720 --> 01:33:27,640 And we talk about this in my Jiu Jitsu gym, but, like, my wife will 1501 01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:30,800 be like, oh, well, you know, this person over here, da, da, da, da, or 1502 01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:33,720 whatever, that person over there not. Could you take them? She doesn't ask you that 1503 01:33:33,720 --> 01:33:36,480 kind of way, but she's like, well, if things happen, like, what are you going 1504 01:33:36,480 --> 01:33:40,280 to do? Like, it doesn't. It doesn't matter. I'm not. I'm not worried 1505 01:33:40,280 --> 01:33:43,240 about what they are going to do. I'm not worried about the 250 pound guy 1506 01:33:43,240 --> 01:33:47,080 who's like 2% body fat. I'm not worried about what he's going to do. I'm 1507 01:33:47,080 --> 01:33:50,760 worried about what I'm going to do in that situation because he's going to get 1508 01:33:50,760 --> 01:33:54,520 a vote. That, by the way, in, in one of the things I love 1509 01:33:54,520 --> 01:33:58,260 about. I mean, you and I both love basketball, right? Yeah. In the NBA, I 1510 01:33:58,260 --> 01:34:01,700 think when an NBA player is playing at the top of his game, I don't 1511 01:34:01,700 --> 01:34:04,900 think he even sees the defense. Oh, I don't think he 1512 01:34:05,460 --> 01:34:09,140 doesn't matter what they're doing. No, it doesn't matter. It's. It's almost 1513 01:34:09,220 --> 01:34:12,100 part of the. And this is kind of like a less, you know, it's not, 1514 01:34:12,100 --> 01:34:14,340 you're not, you know, try to kill the other person. You're just trying to beat 1515 01:34:14,340 --> 01:34:18,100 them. But the. I think that's one of the most amazing 1516 01:34:18,100 --> 01:34:21,860 things when you see players get into that zone where I 1517 01:34:21,860 --> 01:34:25,310 don't think they're even seeing the other, other team. I don't even care, 1518 01:34:25,550 --> 01:34:29,070 you know. Right. It's called the. Right. It's called the. 1519 01:34:29,870 --> 01:34:33,190 I heard this term used. I think I'm using it correctly. Or it's called the 1520 01:34:33,190 --> 01:34:36,590 zone of proximal development. Right. Where, where. 1521 01:34:36,670 --> 01:34:40,270 Or, or I call it, I call it the flow zone. Right, 1522 01:34:40,270 --> 01:34:43,710 Right. So if I'm going with somebody and I'm not thinking and things are just 1523 01:34:43,710 --> 01:34:44,030 going, 1524 01:34:48,350 --> 01:34:52,080 Yeah. Oh, he just like made this thing suck for me on this joint. Well, 1525 01:34:52,080 --> 01:34:55,680 it doesn't matter because I'm going to do this thing over to here. Like I'm 1526 01:34:55,680 --> 01:34:58,920 thinking of. I was just in a role a few days ago. It is a 1527 01:34:58,920 --> 01:35:02,720 small anecdote. Just enrolled a few days ago with somebody who's significantly smaller than 1528 01:35:02,720 --> 01:35:06,320 me and female, but she's of a higher rank, so she's a real problem to 1529 01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:10,040 deal with. And so all of the natural things that I 1530 01:35:10,040 --> 01:35:13,840 would do, the natural advantages that I would have of size, of weight, 1531 01:35:13,840 --> 01:35:16,640 of speed or whatever, I have to put all those, I have to put all 1532 01:35:16,640 --> 01:35:18,720 those. I do have to put all those aside because otherwise it's not going to 1533 01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:22,280 be competitive for her. Right. And so we're going. And she did. She put this, 1534 01:35:22,280 --> 01:35:24,760 like, she put this. It doesn't matter what it's called. It's called a baseball choke. 1535 01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:28,360 But she put this choke on me and I'm watching this happen in real 1536 01:35:28,360 --> 01:35:32,120 time. Like I watched her put the hand in. I watched her sink it and 1537 01:35:32,120 --> 01:35:34,280 she's like trying to sink it and trying to sink it and try to sink 1538 01:35:34,280 --> 01:35:37,600 it. I'm thinking, well, this currently 1539 01:35:37,680 --> 01:35:41,360 sucks, but I could go over there 1540 01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:44,640 on that side of her. Right. So all I have to do is just survive 1541 01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:48,310 this amount of suck here to get to the other 1542 01:35:48,310 --> 01:35:51,430 side over there. Let me work my way over there. 1543 01:35:54,870 --> 01:35:57,310 I know. We're ripping all over the place. Yeah, we are ripping all over the 1544 01:35:57,310 --> 01:35:59,830 place. Do you want. Do you ever watch Seinfeld? Do you ever see the one? 1545 01:35:59,910 --> 01:36:03,750 Oh, my gosh. I am the biggest fan of Seinfeld ever. And yes, 1546 01:36:03,750 --> 01:36:07,030 I know. During the karate with the little children. 1547 01:36:07,430 --> 01:36:11,070 Children. He goes, jerry, 1548 01:36:11,070 --> 01:36:14,080 you. Jerry, fight the belt. You fight the belts. 1549 01:36:17,040 --> 01:36:20,200 I know. I love that episode. Oh, my gosh. It was so good. Oh, my 1550 01:36:20,200 --> 01:36:23,920 gosh. Yeah. And it's interesting. So, like, when he was doing that, when. 1551 01:36:23,920 --> 01:36:27,360 When that episode came on, I was actually involved in 1552 01:36:27,360 --> 01:36:31,000 taekwondo at the time. So I was. I was. I was. And oh, my God, 1553 01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:34,800 that got passed around. Oh, my God, that episode got passed around our gym. It 1554 01:36:34,800 --> 01:36:38,610 was ridiculous. It's a classic. Absolute classic. 1555 01:36:39,730 --> 01:36:42,170 I'm going to pull this back to Chesterton, because I know that's where you want 1556 01:36:42,170 --> 01:36:45,650 to go. What do you think Chesterton would have thought of the Batman 1557 01:36:45,810 --> 01:36:46,610 Chronicles? 1558 01:36:52,530 --> 01:36:56,210 I think Chesterton would have been disappointed because 1559 01:36:57,570 --> 01:37:01,410 for as much as the 1560 01:37:01,810 --> 01:37:05,490 conceptual ideas that we've weighed on Batman 1561 01:37:05,970 --> 01:37:09,250 put on Batman, the ways in which they work to defeat 1562 01:37:09,250 --> 01:37:12,890 nihilism, they aren't Christian. At the end of the 1563 01:37:12,890 --> 01:37:16,410 day. They're not. They don't. They don't uphold a Christian 1564 01:37:16,410 --> 01:37:19,730 ethic. They uphold strength. They uphold brutality. 1565 01:37:19,810 --> 01:37:23,650 Christian superhero. I think the closest that 1566 01:37:23,650 --> 01:37:27,490 you get. And you're asking, I'm a comic book guy. I've been a comic 1567 01:37:27,490 --> 01:37:31,090 book guy for a long, long time. Yeah, yeah, me too. I mean. Yeah, 1568 01:37:32,490 --> 01:37:36,170 yeah. Way back. I think the closest you get is Superman. And 1569 01:37:36,250 --> 01:37:40,050 the joke about Superman is it's. It's a Jesus archetype made by two Jewish 1570 01:37:40,050 --> 01:37:42,810 kids from Cleveland. That's right. Yeah. So. 1571 01:37:44,170 --> 01:37:47,930 But does. Does. Has there ever been a superhero that, like, professed 1572 01:37:47,930 --> 01:37:51,610 a belief in God? What about the. So 1573 01:37:51,930 --> 01:37:55,770 this was a little after my time, but wasn't there the watch. 1574 01:37:55,770 --> 01:37:59,130 Wasn't there, the Watcher? Wasn't he sort of godlike in his sort of, like, ability 1575 01:37:59,130 --> 01:38:02,710 to. Yes. So you're talking about Iwatu and the Watchers in. 1576 01:38:02,710 --> 01:38:04,230 In Marvel Comics. Yeah, 1577 01:38:06,710 --> 01:38:10,350 kind of. But comics have always been partially 1578 01:38:10,350 --> 01:38:13,670 because of the Jewish influence in comics. Partially. But also 1579 01:38:13,670 --> 01:38:17,150 partially because you're attracting artists and 1580 01:38:17,150 --> 01:38:20,750 creatives who tend to Be more anarchic. Not 1581 01:38:20,750 --> 01:38:24,470 religious types. Not religious types. Right. So they tend to shy away 1582 01:38:24,470 --> 01:38:26,670 from that. Also, 1583 01:38:28,350 --> 01:38:32,110 I think that if you have 1584 01:38:32,110 --> 01:38:35,750 a character and again, the closest that you get is truth, justice in the 1585 01:38:35,750 --> 01:38:39,550 American way with Superman, that's the closest you're going to get in 1586 01:38:39,550 --> 01:38:42,390 our denater time. That's the closest you're going to get. I feel like there's a 1587 01:38:42,390 --> 01:38:46,190 hole there that could be filled by someone who 1588 01:38:46,190 --> 01:38:49,830 wanted to create a character. Well, the challenges 1589 01:38:49,830 --> 01:38:53,570 in our time at the business level, 1590 01:38:53,570 --> 01:38:57,290 comic books don't make any money now. They just don't. They're. They're. 1591 01:38:57,450 --> 01:39:00,770 They're. What do you call it? They're either side things or they're part of a 1592 01:39:00,770 --> 01:39:04,170 side business or if you have them as an independent. And there are tons of 1593 01:39:04,170 --> 01:39:07,410 independent creators that are still making comics and digital, but digital 1594 01:39:07,410 --> 01:39:10,450 distribution, sort of. Not sort of digital distribution, 1595 01:39:10,450 --> 01:39:14,170 destroyed the comic book model basically. Then 1596 01:39:14,170 --> 01:39:17,770 you have the dynamic of bad artists. So we went 1597 01:39:17,770 --> 01:39:21,250 through in the mid 2000s when I jumped out of comics, 1598 01:39:21,810 --> 01:39:24,530 you could see art changing. So Marvel Comics, 1599 01:39:25,490 --> 01:39:29,050 once they got acquired by Disney, actually even before that, they 1600 01:39:29,050 --> 01:39:32,770 stopped accepting submissions from independent artists. So there was a 1601 01:39:32,770 --> 01:39:36,250 time in the 90s and I submitted to Marvel where if you were a good 1602 01:39:36,250 --> 01:39:38,930 enough artist, you could submit to Marvel and get picked up off the street. You 1603 01:39:38,930 --> 01:39:41,650 didn't have to go to a convention. You just sent in your samples. 1604 01:39:42,840 --> 01:39:45,880 I think was. Tom Brute was the editor in chief at the time of that. 1605 01:39:45,880 --> 01:39:49,440 Of that outfit. And you. You would have somebody look at your 1606 01:39:49,440 --> 01:39:53,160 samples, they would call back. They would just like if you submitted a 1607 01:39:53,160 --> 01:39:56,840 manuscript in writing. So they had gatekeepers, you could submit. And I 1608 01:39:56,840 --> 01:40:00,520 knew guys who submitted. There was a guy who worked at a printing company across 1609 01:40:00,520 --> 01:40:03,920 the street from me who I went and did some. Some art classes with him 1610 01:40:03,920 --> 01:40:07,720 and he taught me some stuff about drawing. He submitted to Marvel Comics, I don't 1611 01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:11,400 remember if he ever got accepted or not, but Marvel dc, then you had Image 1612 01:40:11,400 --> 01:40:15,180 came along, you know, Jim Lee, Mark Silvestri, Todd to Todd 1613 01:40:15,180 --> 01:40:18,900 McFarlane and Rob Liefeld, all those boys all came along and blew up 1614 01:40:19,220 --> 01:40:22,980 sort of the. The big two idea. But those guys 1615 01:40:22,980 --> 01:40:26,660 were all genuine artists. They had genuine chops. Even 1616 01:40:26,660 --> 01:40:29,660 Rob Liefeld, who I didn't particularly care for. I did not particularly care for his 1617 01:40:29,660 --> 01:40:33,180 art style compared to what happened in the mid-2000s with art 1618 01:40:33,180 --> 01:40:36,820 in comics. He was a frickin. He was a stud 1619 01:40:38,180 --> 01:40:41,830 that all collapsed, which allowed manga and 1620 01:40:41,830 --> 01:40:45,470 other influences to come into Western comic art. 1621 01:40:45,710 --> 01:40:49,350 And that just is totally manga. And the collapse of the 1622 01:40:49,350 --> 01:40:53,150 distribution system have totally ruined American comics. And then you have 1623 01:40:53,150 --> 01:40:56,790 a third factor in there, which is the Disney vacation of everything. So the second 1624 01:40:56,790 --> 01:40:58,590 Marvel sold to Disney, 1625 01:41:01,070 --> 01:41:04,710 all of their properties fell underneath the 1626 01:41:04,710 --> 01:41:08,560 mouse house. And no one in the mouse house. No 1627 01:41:08,560 --> 01:41:11,800 one is talking about God. No one. 1628 01:41:12,760 --> 01:41:16,600 Because why would they. They can, they could, they could do a theme park 1629 01:41:16,600 --> 01:41:19,560 without God, which is the whole point, by the way. Everything supports the theme parks, 1630 01:41:19,560 --> 01:41:23,080 which is what people don't really realize. Yeah. You do a billion dollar Avengers movies, 1631 01:41:23,080 --> 01:41:26,680 but you sell far more tickets to the, to the theme parks. The theme parks 1632 01:41:26,680 --> 01:41:30,320 are what drive that business. It's 1633 01:41:30,320 --> 01:41:34,130 amazing. Yeah. Still, I wonder if there's not 1634 01:41:34,130 --> 01:41:37,010 a. Not a niche there for someone. But the. 1635 01:41:37,730 --> 01:41:38,770 Because the 1636 01:41:41,410 --> 01:41:45,130 struggle of the religious 1637 01:41:45,130 --> 01:41:48,890 man seems. Or woman. I didn't mean to make it just 1638 01:41:48,890 --> 01:41:51,490 about men seems 1639 01:41:53,890 --> 01:41:56,930 really. Well, it seems like 1640 01:41:57,840 --> 01:42:01,600 fertile ground for a superhero. Right. Who struggle with, 1641 01:42:02,240 --> 01:42:06,040 you know, their. The morality of. First 1642 01:42:06,040 --> 01:42:09,200 of all, there's the, the struggle. You know, one of the things I always liked 1643 01:42:09,200 --> 01:42:12,920 about like X Men, for example, is, you know, just being different. Right. You're 1644 01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:16,760 just. It's sort of like you're the. You're the. Well, it went back to 1645 01:42:16,760 --> 01:42:20,560 every kid in high school who was like different. Right. And you 1646 01:42:20,560 --> 01:42:23,130 know, and then you say, well, what if you took that kid which is. Gave 1647 01:42:23,130 --> 01:42:25,850 him superpowers? I'm sure he would be fine. 1648 01:42:27,530 --> 01:42:31,290 I know what I would have done. Yeah. And that's. And that's 1649 01:42:31,290 --> 01:42:33,770 the Peter Parker Spider man. Much ass would have been kicked. 1650 01:42:34,730 --> 01:42:38,330 Absolutely. Absolutely. That's right. Well, 1651 01:42:38,330 --> 01:42:42,090 that's the, that's the Peter Parker Spider man archetype that Steve Ditko 1652 01:42:42,250 --> 01:42:45,850 and. And Jack Kirby and Stan Lee came up with 1653 01:42:47,450 --> 01:42:51,020 actually where Steve Ditko the Jack Kirby. But I mean, 1654 01:42:54,060 --> 01:42:57,260 I think you're right. I think there is a hole in the market there. 1655 01:42:57,740 --> 01:43:00,420 I don't know how you fill it. I don't know if comic books are the 1656 01:43:00,420 --> 01:43:03,020 correct plug for that hole. 1657 01:43:04,220 --> 01:43:08,060 Partially because to your point. 1658 01:43:09,420 --> 01:43:13,140 Well, not even to your point. I don't know if it's the correct plug 1659 01:43:13,140 --> 01:43:16,590 to fit that hole because I'm not quite sure sure that 1660 01:43:17,470 --> 01:43:19,870 there's a market there anymore among 1661 01:43:20,670 --> 01:43:23,550 individuals who are, who are in the, in the. 1662 01:43:25,070 --> 01:43:28,350 In the formative years where comics work. 1663 01:43:28,830 --> 01:43:32,550 So the formative years were like. My father gave me my first comic book when 1664 01:43:32,550 --> 01:43:36,110 I was. I never talked about this on the show before. You seen enough? Huh? 1665 01:43:36,510 --> 01:43:38,990 Or some odd episodes. I never talked about this before. Might as well talk about 1666 01:43:38,990 --> 01:43:42,790 it now. But. But my father Gave me my first comic when 1667 01:43:42,790 --> 01:43:46,390 I was eight years old. 1668 01:43:46,710 --> 01:43:50,030 Seven. Eight years old. It was a. It was a Spider man. I can't remember 1669 01:43:50,030 --> 01:43:53,430 which number. I'm sure it was illustrated by Todd McFarlane. I'm sure it was. 1670 01:43:53,670 --> 01:43:57,110 Or one of the guys that came in pre Todd McFarlane into the marvel. I 1671 01:43:57,110 --> 01:44:00,230 wish I had a copy of that freaking comic book. It'd be worth tons now. 1672 01:44:01,270 --> 01:44:03,910 But that was the first comic book that I ever got, 1673 01:44:04,870 --> 01:44:08,190 and I can tell you, I'm a Gen 1674 01:44:08,190 --> 01:44:11,440 Xer. So we were the last 1675 01:44:11,440 --> 01:44:15,080 generation that really experienced comic book culture as a 1676 01:44:15,080 --> 01:44:18,600 subculture of nerds and geeks and people 1677 01:44:18,600 --> 01:44:21,840 who, like, were doing something that was way off. Right, 1678 01:44:22,160 --> 01:44:25,199 exactly. Doing things that was way off. Those who are listening, I'm holding up my 1679 01:44:25,199 --> 01:44:28,560 hand as a proud member of the. The nerd and geek club. The Nerd and 1680 01:44:28,560 --> 01:44:32,320 Geek club, exactly. And what we saw in our generation, 1681 01:44:32,320 --> 01:44:35,950 in our 20s, our late teens and 20s, was the switchover over 1682 01:44:36,350 --> 01:44:40,110 and more women started coming in. Popular culture started coming in. 1683 01:44:40,510 --> 01:44:44,270 You know, I, I don't go to conventions, but 1684 01:44:44,270 --> 01:44:48,070 you see the cosplaying at conventions and more 1685 01:44:48,070 --> 01:44:51,630 and more normal people are showing up. And then of course, again, Marvel 1686 01:44:51,630 --> 01:44:55,270 gets Disney and starts putting out good movies. And 1687 01:44:55,270 --> 01:44:58,150 by good, I mean not the kind of trash you would have seen in the 1688 01:44:58,150 --> 01:45:01,990 80s. You actually started to put together movies that can actually be released. Like 1689 01:45:01,990 --> 01:45:05,700 the first time I saw Captain America and the first time I 1690 01:45:05,700 --> 01:45:09,380 watched Iron man, that first, like Marvel phase one movies, I thought, 1691 01:45:09,780 --> 01:45:13,620 holy hell, they're actually going to pull it off. They're actually going to do it. 1692 01:45:14,100 --> 01:45:17,860 Now the challenge is they actually did do it. And then of course, they drained 1693 01:45:17,860 --> 01:45:21,140 all the water out of the pool, because that's what you do with your Disney. 1694 01:45:21,460 --> 01:45:24,980 Sure, but, but with all of that, 1695 01:45:25,060 --> 01:45:28,740 I thought, I thought comics would at least run parallel to that. Nope, 1696 01:45:30,260 --> 01:45:33,730 it's all dead. So. So the formative years now of folks 1697 01:45:33,890 --> 01:45:37,730 are formed by the myths in the movies. Not the myths in 1698 01:45:37,730 --> 01:45:41,450 a 32 page or 16 page or 22 page flimsy 1699 01:45:41,450 --> 01:45:45,290 magazine. Plus, if you don't have distribution, how 1700 01:45:45,290 --> 01:45:48,170 are you going to get them into people's hands? Because part of the joy of 1701 01:45:48,170 --> 01:45:52,010 comics is you could go to the grocery and you experience this. You could go 1702 01:45:52,010 --> 01:45:55,850 to the drugstore, you could go to the grocery store. They were in the back 1703 01:45:55,850 --> 01:45:59,510 of the magazine rack. You didn't have dedicated shops. Like when I was a kid, 1704 01:45:59,510 --> 01:46:03,110 I had dedicated shops. I was part of that revolution. The shops are almost 1705 01:46:03,110 --> 01:46:06,870 all gone. Like, there's no dedicated Comic book. There's none. But there's 1706 01:46:06,870 --> 01:46:10,630 very few dedicated comic book shops still around that are actually 1707 01:46:10,630 --> 01:46:14,110 doing business and surviving. So it's like record 1708 01:46:14,110 --> 01:46:17,790 shops. I mean, there's a few around, and you hear people going 1709 01:46:17,790 --> 01:46:21,550 back to vinyl, but it's. It's a. It's a. It's. It's. It's 1710 01:46:21,550 --> 01:46:25,270 the crazy few. It's not. Yeah, well, vinyl sales crossed 1711 01:46:25,270 --> 01:46:28,950 a billion dollars a couple of weeks ago. Are you kidding me? I'm 1712 01:46:28,950 --> 01:46:32,750 kidding. That is good news, man. I love the idea of vinyl 1713 01:46:32,750 --> 01:46:36,470 coming up, because the commonality between those things was this. There was a 1714 01:46:36,470 --> 01:46:40,150 culture of it, right? You and I, if we had known each other as kids, 1715 01:46:40,150 --> 01:46:43,870 would have been sitting over comic books going, oh, man, look, you know, look at 1716 01:46:43,870 --> 01:46:47,670 this. Right? And the same thing with. With. With records, you would 1717 01:46:47,670 --> 01:46:51,000 listen to the records as with your friends, 1718 01:46:51,560 --> 01:46:55,360 you know, and, you know, for example, in this room 1719 01:46:55,360 --> 01:46:58,240 I'm sitting in, you don't do that anymore. In this room I'm sitting in are 1720 01:46:58,240 --> 01:47:02,080 three sets of headphones. You have headphones on your head. Right? Okay. I 1721 01:47:02,080 --> 01:47:05,720 will listen to music later by myself, you know, 1722 01:47:05,960 --> 01:47:09,800 and. But it used to be a very communal experience, 1723 01:47:10,360 --> 01:47:14,160 and you all sat. And the record itself, the 1724 01:47:14,160 --> 01:47:17,930 vinyl record and the sleeve that it came in was part of that 1725 01:47:18,010 --> 01:47:21,450 really cool experience. You know, I think you and I have talked about this before, 1726 01:47:21,450 --> 01:47:24,370 so we don't have to go too deeply into it. But, I mean, you know, 1727 01:47:24,370 --> 01:47:27,930 I remember sitting around the Sgt. Peppers album and going, 1728 01:47:28,570 --> 01:47:32,410 why is George's hand pointing to that particular piece 1729 01:47:32,410 --> 01:47:36,090 of text on the back where they printed the lyrics? You know, why is Paul 1730 01:47:36,090 --> 01:47:39,770 the one turned around? You know? You know, you debated all these things 1731 01:47:39,770 --> 01:47:43,000 endlessly, and there was. There was. There was a lot of. Lot of 1732 01:47:43,560 --> 01:47:45,160 friendship, and 1733 01:47:48,200 --> 01:47:51,520 I want to avoid the word culture, but it keeps coming. That came out of 1734 01:47:51,520 --> 01:47:55,280 it, and now it's all been sort of swept away. 1735 01:47:55,280 --> 01:47:58,920 But I'm really. I wonder maybe if some of it is 1736 01:47:58,920 --> 01:48:02,760 coming back. When you say that vinyl sales passed a billion dollars, maybe that's 1737 01:48:02,760 --> 01:48:05,560 a harbinger of good things to come. So 1738 01:48:07,240 --> 01:48:11,000 let's wrap up this episode. This is. Okay. All right, man. It was Thursday. 1739 01:48:11,160 --> 01:48:14,720 GK Chesterton, I'm going to ask you a couple questions here, Neil. 1740 01:48:18,000 --> 01:48:21,120 I think that. But I will say that. No, but I will say this. I'll 1741 01:48:21,120 --> 01:48:23,960 start my closing comments with this idea. I want to piggyback off of what you 1742 01:48:23,960 --> 01:48:27,720 just said. Sure. So one of the 1743 01:48:27,720 --> 01:48:31,120 very reason. One of the reasons I do this podcast for many reasons, 1744 01:48:31,360 --> 01:48:35,040 but a Big reason is I believe in the subversive 1745 01:48:35,040 --> 01:48:38,320 power of books. And 1746 01:48:39,100 --> 01:48:42,900 comic books are subversive. Don't get me wrong. So are kids, cartoons. 1747 01:48:42,900 --> 01:48:46,460 Oh, my God, the suppressiveness. And Looney Tunes is unbelievable. But. 1748 01:48:47,500 --> 01:48:51,260 But books at the end of the day travel across 1749 01:48:51,500 --> 01:48:55,020 time to people, right? So I read a book now 1750 01:48:55,500 --> 01:48:59,340 at. In my late 40s. That book travels across 1751 01:48:59,420 --> 01:49:03,180 time on my shelf with an idea in it. And 1752 01:49:03,340 --> 01:49:07,190 my kid, who's my youngest kid, who's now nine, 30 years from now, picks up 1753 01:49:07,190 --> 01:49:10,390 that book and he gets a totally different set of ideas, but it's still there. 1754 01:49:10,710 --> 01:49:13,270 The book is the most subversive document we've got. 1755 01:49:14,310 --> 01:49:17,910 And you talk about culture. Books, vinyl records, 1756 01:49:19,030 --> 01:49:22,630 and then the digital and podcasts, they become this 1757 01:49:22,710 --> 01:49:26,310 thing that connects people. Because at the end of the day, 1758 01:49:28,230 --> 01:49:31,190 we need mediums 1759 01:49:32,280 --> 01:49:36,120 to get across messages of restoration and 1760 01:49:36,360 --> 01:49:40,040 messages of rebuilding. And these subversive mediums 1761 01:49:40,040 --> 01:49:43,720 can do that, particularly if the dominant culture. To our point, on our show today, 1762 01:49:43,720 --> 01:49:47,560 this has been a running theme, particularly if our dominant culture is denatured 1763 01:49:47,720 --> 01:49:51,360 or has been deconstructed by people who 1764 01:49:51,360 --> 01:49:55,120 followed the logic of anarchism and now are done with it. 1765 01:49:55,120 --> 01:49:58,600 I think anarchism is a spent force. That doesn't mean that I don't think the 1766 01:49:58,600 --> 01:50:02,080 spirit is still there. That'll always be there. It's part of the human condition. 1767 01:50:02,480 --> 01:50:06,000 But I think the. I think the support 1768 01:50:06,080 --> 01:50:09,760 for it and the ideas of it are beginning a downward. A 1769 01:50:09,760 --> 01:50:13,240 downward spiral. And what is coming up, what is 1770 01:50:13,240 --> 01:50:16,760 ascending is rebuilding and restoration because we've 1771 01:50:16,760 --> 01:50:19,800 deconstructed enough. And that's one of the other reasons why I do this show. Because 1772 01:50:19,800 --> 01:50:23,120 we've deconstructed enough, we have to know how to build now. We have to figure 1773 01:50:23,120 --> 01:50:26,800 it out. Right. I love that 1774 01:50:26,800 --> 01:50:30,360 concept of ideas traveling through time. Oh, 1775 01:50:30,600 --> 01:50:34,320 and the book is. The book is the best technology we've ever created to have 1776 01:50:34,320 --> 01:50:36,200 that happen, it's genius. 1777 01:50:38,120 --> 01:50:41,640 So in the spirit of that, if my grandchild 1778 01:50:41,720 --> 01:50:44,040 20 years from now is listening to this podcast. 1779 01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:49,280 Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. And read the 1780 01:50:49,280 --> 01:50:52,040 Lord of the Rings. And read the Lord of the Rings. That's right. Yes, that's 1781 01:50:52,040 --> 01:50:55,380 right. Not in that order. 1782 01:50:55,940 --> 01:50:59,620 Not in that order. What 1783 01:50:59,700 --> 01:51:02,660 should leaders, business leaders, civic leaders, 1784 01:51:04,660 --> 01:51:07,780 leaders who have managed to get to the end of the podcast with us, this 1785 01:51:07,780 --> 01:51:10,900 part here, you know, our wanderings. 1786 01:51:12,180 --> 01:51:15,980 What should they take from the man who was Thursday? What's the big lesson 1787 01:51:15,980 --> 01:51:18,740 to take from that? What can they apply to their leadership lives? 1788 01:51:23,130 --> 01:51:26,730 Oh, dear. I have to Answer this. Oh, yes. So this is, this is your, 1789 01:51:26,890 --> 01:51:29,050 this is, this is the penultimate question for the guest. 1790 01:51:32,090 --> 01:51:35,770 So I think you asked me this last time and I did never, never despair. 1791 01:51:36,010 --> 01:51:39,850 Right. Yeah, was my answer. That's, that's the message of, of the Lord of 1792 01:51:39,850 --> 01:51:43,690 the Rings. The message to me. And 1793 01:51:44,010 --> 01:51:47,130 I don't know if this will help a, you know, 1794 01:51:48,300 --> 01:51:52,020 a business leader deciding, you know, what to invest in next week or anything like 1795 01:51:52,020 --> 01:51:55,780 that, but generally is without God 1796 01:51:55,780 --> 01:51:59,260 there is only anarchy. And the, I think 1797 01:51:59,260 --> 01:52:03,060 Chesterton presented that in 1798 01:52:03,060 --> 01:52:06,900 a fun, I think he was having 1799 01:52:06,900 --> 01:52:10,740 fun in the man who Was Thursday. I 1800 01:52:10,740 --> 01:52:13,660 don't think he meant it to be taken all completely seriously, 1801 01:52:14,420 --> 01:52:18,260 but that things fall apart 1802 01:52:18,260 --> 01:52:21,780 quickly once you get away from, from God. 1803 01:52:22,340 --> 01:52:26,100 And you know, I'm not trying to offer that up 1804 01:52:26,100 --> 01:52:29,780 as business advice. I think that that's, but 1805 01:52:30,420 --> 01:52:34,180 you know, a good business is, is like a, 1806 01:52:34,180 --> 01:52:37,700 it's like a well lived life. You know, you, you want to 1807 01:52:38,180 --> 01:52:41,950 have a purpose and you want it to adhere to certain 1808 01:52:42,110 --> 01:52:45,670 rules. And I think ultimately 1809 01:52:45,670 --> 01:52:49,310 if you look for what 1810 01:52:49,390 --> 01:52:53,110 rules, you know, you're trying to make your business or 1811 01:52:53,110 --> 01:52:55,230 your life adhere to, I think. 1812 01:53:00,270 --> 01:53:03,790 Whatever your conception of God might be, I think looking there is your best, first 1813 01:53:03,790 --> 01:53:07,160 place to start, to start looking. I think as we were saying earlier, 1814 01:53:07,400 --> 01:53:09,880 you know, I said this to my daughter the other day and I realized it's 1815 01:53:09,880 --> 01:53:13,640 a long answer to your short question. But you know, if 1816 01:53:13,640 --> 01:53:17,440 you look to the Internet to find your morality 1817 01:53:17,440 --> 01:53:20,840 or your, your sense of right and wrong or even whether you should 1818 01:53:21,640 --> 01:53:25,400 invest in Tesla or not invest in Tesla, heaven 1819 01:53:25,400 --> 01:53:29,040 help you, man, because there is only anarchy out 1820 01:53:29,040 --> 01:53:32,490 there. You're not going to get your answer because it's, 1821 01:53:32,890 --> 01:53:35,450 because there's, that's the howling winds of chaos. 1822 01:53:36,810 --> 01:53:40,170 So you have to have that internal sense of, 1823 01:53:40,490 --> 01:53:44,210 you know, again, I'm trying to, I'm answering your question 1824 01:53:44,210 --> 01:53:47,330 in real time, so forgive me if I'm going on a bit, but you know, 1825 01:53:47,330 --> 01:53:50,450 one of the things that we have in business, for example, you and I have 1826 01:53:50,450 --> 01:53:53,930 this, my wife and I talk about this a lot, which is you're always, 1827 01:53:54,090 --> 01:53:57,840 you're hiring people, you're firing people, you're, you're, you're constantly, of course, it's, 1828 01:53:58,070 --> 01:54:01,030 it's really all about people in the end. And ultimately 1829 01:54:01,350 --> 01:54:05,110 usually when you're making a decision about a person, you're basing that 1830 01:54:05,110 --> 01:54:08,950 on kind of, I mean, yes, you can have the resume in 1831 01:54:08,950 --> 01:54:12,550 front of you and yes, you can say, oh, they went to 15 Ivy League 1832 01:54:12,550 --> 01:54:15,670 schools and they did this and they did that. But 1833 01:54:16,070 --> 01:54:19,830 ultimately it's really a gut decision really with people. And 1834 01:54:19,830 --> 01:54:22,710 there's, you know, there's something, what I, what I call basically your 1835 01:54:23,670 --> 01:54:26,610 spider sense, right, which basically says, 1836 01:54:27,810 --> 01:54:30,610 do I want to be in business with this person? And 1837 01:54:31,810 --> 01:54:35,530 most of. There's a few instances where I did not follow 1838 01:54:35,530 --> 01:54:39,330 that advice and I came to regret it. And off camera sometime 1839 01:54:39,330 --> 01:54:43,010 I will tell you that that's true from many years ago. So it's 1840 01:54:43,010 --> 01:54:46,130 nothing recent, nothing recent at all, decades back. 1841 01:54:47,010 --> 01:54:50,530 But there are many times where I did follow that advice and I found 1842 01:54:50,530 --> 01:54:53,990 generally it always, it always worked. But you know, 1843 01:54:54,230 --> 01:54:58,070 what we call spider sense or I 1844 01:54:58,070 --> 01:55:01,470 just had a feeling about someone I think is another way of 1845 01:55:01,470 --> 01:55:03,350 expressing something about their 1846 01:55:05,270 --> 01:55:08,470 really that there was something you had in common with them 1847 01:55:09,430 --> 01:55:11,270 that resonated. And 1848 01:55:13,110 --> 01:55:16,790 if you want to put a religious interpretation 1849 01:55:16,790 --> 01:55:19,930 on that, I don't think that's so 1850 01:55:20,170 --> 01:55:23,370 excellent. There you go, my friend. That's the best I can come up with. 1851 01:55:23,610 --> 01:55:27,410 That's. No, that's actually, that's actually very, very good. No, that's. That's 1852 01:55:27,410 --> 01:55:31,250 actually very, very good. I usually let the guest the have 1853 01:55:31,250 --> 01:55:35,010 the last word on that. So I want to thank Neil for 1854 01:55:35,010 --> 01:55:38,490 coming on our show today and talking with us about the man who Was Thursday 1855 01:55:38,490 --> 01:55:42,130 by GK Chesterton. Go out and pick up that book and come to your 1856 01:55:42,130 --> 01:55:45,970 own conclusions. And with that, well, we're 1857 01:55:45,970 --> 01:55:46,250 out.