Intro: Is Mercury in retrograde?, thought ideation,
Let Me Run This By You: holding the hope for someone else when you're not feeling it yourself
Interview:
Centenary university,
Cedar Point, dyslexia,
Ed Graczyk, stage combat,
John Jenkins,
B.K.S. Iyengar yoga,
Burn This, movement to music, therapy, improvisation,
Sean Gunn,
Lee Kirk,
Johnna Adams,
No End of Blame, Paul Holmquist,
Ben Nye,
Tisch,
Hot l Baltimore,
Sharon Gopfert, the
Lyric Opera of Chicago,
Les Liaisons Dangereuses at Shattered Globe theatre, demons,
Susan Bennett,
Agamemnon at European Repertory Theatre,
Leonard Roberts, vanity, the Wolf Pack Production Company,
Zach Helm, Bridget Quebodeaux, Jimmy McDermott, Rob Hess, Hunting Cockroaches,
Paul Tei, cancer.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina <inaudible>. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?
2 (31s):
Dumb ass. I'm sitting here for 10 minutes. I could have done all of this already. Hi friends. How are you?
1 (39s):
Oh, I don't know. Like I feel today, like just, I'm not feeling it, like, today's like, like shit keeps going wrong this morning. Like the dog woke up too early. Like, what are you doing up at three 15? Nobody likes that. Like go back to bed. So, and then I just, you know, it's interesting. I've seen a lot of people online lately talking about, and one of them was a scientist talking about how mercury in retrograde is not a thing it's like not a real thing and people blame it, but okay, fine. That's fine. But also we need something to blame Stefan. So I feel like blaming more Korea planet in retrograde is the least harmful thing we could do.
1 (1m 25s):
Absolutely. Like, fuck the planet. Like I'm going to blooper Korean record. Right. So anyway, I just really feel like if there is such a thing as we're curing Richard raid, I was feeling it this morning. Just like, like shit is not going, like my husband and I were not communicating right this morning. And like, I just over stupid stuff about him getting a burrito, breakfast burrito, like it doesn't matter. The point is like, I'm not, I just one of those days where I was like, okay, I gotta make sure, like before I came and talked to you, I was like, let me blow this candle out in the other room because it's one of those mornings where like I could see, I'm not going to set myself up for more, for more failure.
1 (2m 5s):
So that's how I feel. I feel like a little bit tired and, and PMSC, but I'm okay. I'm here. That's good.
2 (2m 15s):
That is a gift of being older. That when you can recognize you've just done it enough to be like, Hmm. When I start doing this, then it doesn't go too great for me. So I better do this other thing.
1 (2m 30s):
Right. It goes really badly if I, right. If I blame people instead of mercury in retrograde. And if I don't, don't make things easier on myself. So like today I have remind me, I just have to get off our call at night at eight fifty five, if that's okay. Can we end there not this one, but the next one, anyway, I have a thought, a thought ideation group. I told you how I do do I, did I tell you how to do these thought ideation groups? No, I've never heard of this whatsoever. Well, okay. So there's a company that hires creative thinkers to sort of join these, like those, you know, how you get tagged to do those marketing things and you get paid like, you know, like a focus group, right?
1 (3m 19s):
So we're like moles on the inside of the focus group that are hired to basically make the conversation more lively. Yeah. Wow. So, so, so it's me and a bunch of like, so, okay. It's a, it's a company in Chicago and my friend was like, you know, the, money's not, it's not steady, but it's good money when you do it, would you be interested in doing this thing called thought ideation? I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about, but okay. So it was a company that, that they put together groups of creatives and then charge companies a lot of money to bring us in.
1 (4m 5s):
And we make some of the money to get their market research going on a certain product or item. And so a lot of times when you have those focus groups, like nobody talks, there's no, you know, average Joe and Betty Schmoe are there for the money. Of course they're not there. You know, th th th their jam is not thinking like that's not anyway. So they hire us to sort of go in and be the, and sometimes it's only create like ideators or whatever we're called. And sometimes we're mixed with the general consumer. And I don't know what that one is, what what's happening today, but you can't be like, oh, I'm special.
1 (4m 46s):
You know what I mean? So you have to sort of blend in, so you can just like performative Performante of performative, but you also have to like, sort of be engaging. It's interesting work. It's also right. As I get older, I'm like, oh, I want to be the people running the, the group. Like whenever I ran these groups, I look at the marketing cause it's the marketing department of whatever product. And I'm like, this, this is a cool job. I just missed my calling as one of these market research. Like people that are probably making more than I'm making, but I'm yet I haven't done that. So, so that's what I'm doing at nine, 9:00 AM on zoom. Now they're all on zoom for, you know, a couple hours, you make a couple hundred bucks.
1 (5m 26s):
Okay. What's the product today. It's the some kind of fitness situation talking about fitness equipment. So the questions for the panel is like, would you be likely to use this? Or like, how could you make this product better? It's usually like, how could this be better? Like what speaks to you? They're really into it's fascinating. Cause they're really into like story to like, what kind of story does this, this product tell? Or like, it's interesting. They're really looking at like ways to make things better are things practical and user-friendly and right.
1 (6m 10s):
And like what feelings do these evokes this candle evoke or whatever the thing is. And, and then there's also like these exercises you do sometimes that are just seemingly unrelated, but somehow tie back into products, whatever.
2 (6m 25s):
So you're just behaving as another person on the panel. You're just, you're answering the same questions as everybody else, but you're your liveliness has meant to be infectious.
1 (6m 37s):
Got it. Okay. Well,
2 (6m 39s):
That's a perfect job for you.
1 (6m 40s):
Well, thank you. Thank you. I, you know, I liked doing it and also it's really it's yeah, you can't make a living at it, but you could. I asked, you know, like, oh, could I join the actual organization? And that they're like, this is like a one, two man operation. We don't have money for, you know, whatever. But so anyway, that's what I'm doing at nine. And so anyway, that's what I, I just got like back to back stuff, which is great. And it's also like we have a dog and miles started this new job and we're in a fucking fucking one bedroom apartment. <inaudible> mama. It, I never, I never, so we've been living in a one bedroom off and on for, you know, mostly for years.
1 (7m 24s):
And it hasn't been a problem because none of us had real jobs. So like, or like permanent jobs. And when miles did contract work, they don't give a fuck where you do it, how you do it, who's in your room. If you're in your bed, they treat you like, like, you know, commodity and you do your thing and you're done. But now there's like a real situation. So I'm like, oh my God. So it's the first time in our marriage that I'm like, oh, we need more space. And I, I see how that happens. Like, it's the same as your life changes. It's just happening later for us where you're like, oh, our life is expanding. We actually need a container. That's going to sort of stretch instead of like, make us insane. So that's, so that's all, that's all feeding into my retrograding minus
2 (8m 8s):
I wonder how that idea about mercury in retrograde first ever even came to be a thing. Like, I guess it has something
1 (8m 15s):
To do with astrology. It's going with Paltrow
2 (8m 18s):
Probably. Well, as for me, I'm ready today, woke up saying I am open it. Dear universe. I am pending a letter to the universe. I am open to an exciting and positive surprise today. I haven't had an exciting and positive surprise since I can't. I can't remember the last time I had an exciting, positive surprise. Okay. So yeah. Bring it on Merck.
2 (8m 59s):
If it's mercury fine, you can bring it on mercury, Saturn Pluto. I'll take anything. I'll take any planet, Uranus, Uranus, as long as it's a gift. As long as it's a gift,
1 (9m 16s):
I'm gonna say your anus. It could be a gift. You know,
2 (9m 20s):
I love situation. I love that. I just it's like a lot of same disease over here. Same disease, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, same these people at the breakfast, lunch and dinner table. Same these conversations about what we have to do today saying these chores seems as close. I'm folding, same Zs emails I'm responding to. So yeah, I mean, to be honest, I could probably engender some more novelty if I just did something different, you know, like it probably would only take me doing something different to have a different or novel sort of experience.
2 (10m 0s):
But one of the thing, one of the characteristics about being in like this Groundhog day, if at all, is that you've sort of are uninclined to do something different. Cause it's just like it, you know, it perpetuates itself, whatever. So, so maybe that's my, maybe that's my task for the day is to try to, I mean, in gender, some change,
1 (10m 20s):
It's an interesting concept because if you look at television, like that's where people get into a lot of weird shit is when they're in the same disease, I'm just thinking of like desperate Housewives and those so like, and a lot of shows breaking bad. Like it's all about the same disease humdrum that we all get into. And then either nature, you know, throws us either benevolent or not so benevolent or a surprise, or we create a situation so that we're not in the same disease anymore, which is why, you know, people have do all kinds of stuff. It's interesting as humans we need, we need variety. I think some, you know, to mix it up a little bit, you know?
2 (11m 4s):
Absolutely. Did I ever tell you the story about when we first moved to this town, the little town newspaper used to have this, what I thought was the best part of the whole newspaper they've since gotten rid of it where they'd say they pick a day in history of what they were running in the newspaper, because the newspaper had been around for whatever. It was like a hundred years. And they'd say, you know, on this day in history and it was, but it was always something like really local to our town, which was kind of cute. I think it was like the first or second week we lived here. I was pregnant with my daughter. We were driving to the city every single day because the boys were not, it was dry at the end of their school year.
2 (11m 54s):
So I wanted them to finish their school year in the city. So we, I had to get up at like four 30 in the morning in order to like, get everything ready to get them to school. And they would like sleep in the car on the way there. It was totally crazy. But so I was feeling very trapped at that time. And the thing in the newspaper was a story about a woman who had gone missing. She was last seen, she had gone next door to her friends to play cards. And that's where her son, I guess when he came home, that's where he usually expected her to be this time when he came home, there was KA ketchup all over the floor and the door was open and the woman was never seen again.
2 (12m 54s):
So the idea was she had pretended to that there was blood she'd had, I don't know why she thought that that would be a convincing thing, I guess. And also why she didn't think it would be traumatizing for her child, but, and she, and somebody had reported seeing her walking down some road, like she just walked away from her life. And I w my reaction to reading that was this mixture of like fear and ex and glee and shame that I was having. That that was a gleeful thought to me, it made such an indelible impression, but there are so many times in my life as a mom where I'm like, I could just see myself what I'd never do it obviously.
2 (13m 43s):
And she was probably very mentally ill, but still just the fantasy of opening the door and walking away and just being like, this is no longer my responsibility. It's just like, still, it gives me a little thrill, something small.
1 (14m 1s):
I can, I don't have, obviously, you know, I don't have children, but I can totally relate. So I have this fantasy when things get too much, I have this very specific, weird fantasy, and it brings me such joy and I tell miles about it. So I pack up the car. I mean, I have no belong. I mean, what am I packing? I pack up my Volvo, my little Volvo Volvo. I pack it up. I take all my money that my mom left me. I buy a fear, a small goat farm in Nashville. This is so crazy. And I go to Nashville and I just live on this goat farm.
1 (14m 41s):
And I just like the neighbors come and visit me. And I don't know anybody. And I start over and I have this new life in this small goat farm in Nashville. And it just feels like, oh my God, it just feels like freedom. It started because it started because Jack White lived in Nashville and I was having all these recurring things about Jack White. So I was like, oh, Hey, I could be there. And then I was like, okay, forget him. Like, who cares? I just want this small, yet interesting life in Nashville where I don't work. I don't know what I would do at the goats, but I, you know, that's the thing about fantasies. You never get,
2 (15m 22s):
You don't have to, you don't have to work out all the logistics, but
1 (15m 24s):
It just seems, it just seems like such a good time.
2 (15m 29s):
It seems like a relief. Well, do you think this is why back in the day, men used to so frequently, like have a second family, just three blocks away and maybe it was, maybe it was originally started because like, maybe this family will be better. Yeah.
1 (15m 44s):
You know, people do everything like maybe, I mean, maybe this job will be better. Maybe this town will be better. Maybe, you know? And I, I mean, because I'm who I am. I think like serial killers have the same thing where like, this kill will be the one that scratches the itch and I will no longer need to do this. Same with drug addicts. Maybe this will be better. It never works. But the fantasy is so seductive. It's like,
2 (16m 12s):
God, that's really interesting to think about a serial killer as also having just a mundane wish to like get relief.
1 (16m 20s):
Everyone is just trying to get relief. And I think that, I think the depression was really set in like, how many families can you have? How many victims, you know, then it becomes, oh, it's, it's, it's, it's really, it's a really seductive trap
2 (16m 36s):
Thinking about serial killers. I want to know what your thoughts are about the potential revelation of who the real Zodiac killer.
1 (16m 45s):
So I have this thing with the Zodiac where I'm just like now permanently annoyed at the whole investing. I'm like, okay, me too.
2 (16m 54s):
What is it? I don't get it.
1 (16m 57s):
I feel like right. It is the longest running terrible investigation that ever was. I mean, oh,
2 (17m 8s):
That could just really bungled, like,
1 (17m 10s):
But continues. It never, it just seems really, really poorly worked all the time. And also I've lost my inch thrill. I've lost the thrill. So now I just saw the thing and I didn't really, what are they saying? Are they saying,
2 (17m 26s):
They're saying, it's this guy named Gary post. I think it's P O S T E. I think that's the name. And I don't know if it's true or not, but the funniest thing was going around on Twitter that this guy who was this Gary posts best Ray died in 2018. This guy was his best friend, us significantly younger guy. And that he would have all these pictures of the two of them on Facebook. And he'd be like, you know, like, you know, fishing with Gary Zodiac question like that, he shot on several occasions. Had been like, never said, I think that's the Zodiac killer, but always be like, Zodiac question.
2 (18m 10s):
I don't know if it's true, but if it is Gary, sorry for the victims, whatever, but that's hilarious. I actually don't really know anything about this. I don't know who he killed or where it was or whenever is
1 (18m 22s):
This story is a creepy one. It's a guy in the fifties, right? Who, late fifties, I believe, early sixties, something like that who definitely targeted couples making out. Right. And he had this burlap sack on his head and then he, so he killed all these, these couples on lover's lane. And then he started sending letters to the, at it's just long drawn out thing. And I just, yeah, I got to say, like, I just became weary of the whole Zodiac thing and it's been so many different people and there's been like 43 movies. I'm just like, oh, it's, I don't know why. It's just, I was a family member.
1 (19m 3s):
You bet your ass. I'd be interested obviously. But I just feel like it's <inaudible>
2 (19m 17s):
I want to run by you as a therapist. You were probably in this position, but I wonder if you've been in this position in other ways, when you have to hold the hope for somebody, when you don't really have it yourself, you're like I'm having this conversation with one of my kids who is basically having the exact same problem that I have, which is he doesn't have any friends because he doesn't relate to anybody in our town.
2 (19m 57s):
And I'm really trying so hard to figure out the way in which this problem as it relates to me, I'm not trying. I mean, I am trying to figure it out related to him, but I'm not going to talk about that on the, on the podcast. Sure. I'm trying really hard to figure out the way in which I know it has something to do with myself centered fear, this inability to relate to other people, but I haven't worked it out yet. And so I'm trying to help him. And I'm basically giving platitudes that I don't even really believe in because I don't know what else to say. I feel it's. I feel it's.
2 (20m 38s):
I feel, I cannot say, yeah, you're right. Everybody here sucks. And nobody's interesting. And you'll probably never have any friends until you move away, which is the feeling that I actually have. And so what I could always go back to as a therapist is like, okay, so, so, so you don't have any friends. So, so then what, what do you, so then how can you find joy in your life? Or so then how can you make meaning out of what you're doing? And, and actually one of the things I was telling him was to try to find a way to be of service, because that's usually a way to get you, you know, a person outside of themselves.
2 (21m 19s):
This concept though is sort of advanced, I think, in a way for somebody his age. But do you know what I'm talking about when you're trying to hold the hope for somebody and how do you manage it and how do you deal with that?
1 (21m 35s):
Well, I'm trying to think of, like, I definitely know this feeling and I also, I'm thinking back to, I remember trying to counsel people are therapize with people when really stuck hard stuff was happening in my own life. It sort of right. It, I know that we don't want to say like, listen, I'm having the same problem too, to your, what I'm understanding is you don't want to say that, but I think you kind of have to say to him, or I have to say to whoever, like I gotta be honest and transparent here.
1 (22m 17s):
Like I I'm actually working with similar things in my life and you don't have to get into them and stuff because I think part of the problem right. Is feeling so isolated. And maybe you guys can turn it. I mean, it sounds kind of crazy, but like maybe you guys could turn it into a project together to try to investigate this town and see what things you could do together. Whether it's like, I don't know what kind of volunteer as stuff, but like maybe you could use it as a bonding experience rather than a, because this is a really good idea. Well, we talk about this on the, on the podcast where it's like, the truth is the truth. Like you feel like in this town, you G not have trouble relating to people.
1 (23m 1s):
And so that's just the truth. It's doesn't mean anyone's doing anything wrong either. You were them. It's just the truth, right? It, same thing with your kiddo. So I think it's like, make it a way, meet, try to make it a way where you guys can team together. So like what I would say to my client or something, it was like, listen, let's talk about ways in which we can work with grief for you. And maybe I'll pick up some because I'm a human. Maybe I'll pick up some tips on the way, but like what has worked in the past or like, so I think you have to join rather than separate, further
2 (23m 35s):
That's right. I just don't know
1 (23m 36s):
Any other way. Right. Because then you've got two people isolated in their own mess
2 (23m 44s):
And otherwise it's me pretending like you
1 (23m 47s):
Don't eat and pretending leads to depression and anxiety for everybody. Like it just does. So when I pretended with clients that everything was fine, like, look, I'm not telling them all my problems. I still have boundaries. I hope I had boundaries, but I definitely did not pretend that like I was, everything was normal. I would be like, yeah, I'm going through a really hard time. My mom is sick, but that doesn't mean I'm not still your therapist and let's go forward. So it's like, yeah, you're the mom, but you also are humanly. And I think that's one of the things that probably, you know, makes parents good. Parents is like being able to, it's a fine line, but being able to be like transparent and say like, man, you're not alone in this problem.
1 (24m 28s):
I have this too. How can we make it better together? My parents never did that by the way. So I always felt isolated and I felt like they felt isolated. So you've got two isolated people in the same roof, which makes for a real shit show.
2 (24m 41s):
Do you think then? And my parents never did that either. Do you think they never did it because nobody ever did it for them and they, and a lot of the times when you were coming to them or you had a problem, your problem mirrored, something in their lives and they felt scared by that. So they tried to tell you the same platitude that their parents tried to tell them that didn't work for them either. Right? My God, why would we do this?
1 (25m 5s):
Because we don't know any
2 (25m 6s):
Rational Daisy chain of like, let's pretend that something, we all know doesn't work works.
1 (25m 12s):
It's like, it's like, because of feet, like you said, fear, it's just fear. It's fear of having to look at, oh my God, I moved like for my parents, it was like, oh my God, the fear of, let me look at how I entered this marriage and what am I doing in this marriage? And what am I doing in my career, whatever it is. Those are really hard things to look at and really could lead to some, maybe having to make changes. And my mom, I can tell you right now did not want to deal with that. And neither did my dad, like it's a lot of work. And on top of, you know, at that time, both having full-time jobs and two children. So like,
2 (25m 50s):
Yeah. And honestly that's also usually, always the answer when something is painful. Not always, but it's often the answer that you just have to go deeper into the pain of it. So you can get to the other side, like I've had that experience in my, you know, primary relationships. Like something feels like it's on the brink of ending it's or, or my perception because of my history is if it's this bad, the only thing that is possible as an outcome is that this relationship will end it and, and I've ended many relationships that way. But then I've had a couple and I drew me in like a couple of experiences where things were so bad and I was convinced and doing the whole morning and everything like being in the real grief of this thing has before it's even ended, because I assume that that's the only answer.
2 (26m 49s):
And then fortunately, you know, the other person, not just making the decision to end things like I would, but saying no, no, no, no. Let's just have this pain and keep doing it and see what's on the other side that was never modeled for me. So it, it always felt like death, like, okay, well, so you and, and maybe my son is going through this too. Like you just, as you're talking about you, just people pleasing people pleasing, you try to figure out the thing that's going to make that, that you think the other person wants until you literally can't take it anymore. And then you just explode leave, catch on the floor, walk down, lock down the road.
2 (27m 32s):
Never to be heard from again, like I feel so many of us, myself included at certain times have, have truly believed. There is no hope on the other side, if something is really bad, then there, then it's only got one final common pathway, which is death and termination over. And so many of these things would be better for us if we would say, but what if it wasn't, what if it was, we just kept going deeper into the pain of it.
1 (28m 5s):
Right. And so I always think of, I always think of like right of my two things of my mentor, Dr. Altman, who would say like, but it could've worked, but like it's possible. Like what if it does work? Like what if this med works or what, like it's possible. And I'd be like, really, this is crazy, but okay. You seem to think it, I don't believe it, but I believe that you believe it because you're real insistent and that we have a good track record. So I always remember that. And I always think of this article. I read about starting off real happy on this Tuesday. But this article I read about people who jumped off the golden gate bridge, the ones who survived every single one, not, not 90%, 100% of people who jumped and lived the first thought out of their mind and they continued to hold onto it.
1 (28m 59s):
And sir, after they survived was I've made a horrible mistake. Things weren't as bad as all this. They never said this was a great idea. So it just reminds me that like it, and I was like, what? So everyone they interviewed now, they didn't have an interview, but I was like shocked that their research showed that, that, that I shouldn't have done this. I've made a horrible mistake is the number one thought that happens upon that jump, that people who lived. So I'm like, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. If that is true, if I'm going to hold that to be true, and these people have lived this shit obviously, and that survived and speaking of survival, right.
1 (29m 44s):
And then I'm going to see what's on the other side. I can see whether it's a small pain or a large pain, like it's uncomfortable. It feels intolerable, but is it really intolerable? And that's something that you probably, you know, tolerate,
2 (29m 58s):
Is it really intolerable? Or am I just telling myself that because I've never actually tested the hypothesis? Like, because actually what is intolerable? Right? I mean, like, we were very adoptable as humans, we can learn to tolerate a lot of things
1 (30m 15s):
It's uncomfortable and it feels horrible and feels terrible and painful, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure not seeing it through actually feels better or doing something else. I just don't have the data that, that is true. Although when someone's going through it, they it's like, especially the, you know, like I was thinking about clients that have borderline personality disorder that who the tolerance for, for uncomfortable feelings is excruciating and small and has to be grown right. To, to show like, you can do it, you have resilience, but you ha they never learned that. So it's like learning and it's so painful to grow and learn.
1 (30m 56s):
It is so fucking painful. Yeah.
2 (30m 59s):
It literally feels like, oh, trying to go grow a new skin and you know, and shed out of your old one, which, you know, when you just say it like that, it sounds like it would be something like very pleasant, but really, no, it feels like, you know, it feels like you're going to explode or it feels like, yeah,
1 (31m 18s):
It's violent. If you watch a butterfly transition or a caterpillar, but transitioning to a butterfly it's violent and gross and dark and disgusting. And
2 (31m 31s):
Then it's beautiful and it looks
1 (31m 32s):
Like they're going to die, but they don't. So I guess we got to keep going here as well.
2 (31m 37s):
Keep going, keep going,
1 (31m 39s):
Keep,
0 (31m 41s):
Well
1 (31m 50s):
Today on the podcast we're talking with Steven Davis, Steven Davis went to the theater school at DePaul university with us, and then he went on to do so many things. He's an actor, a stage combat pro. He's been a makeup artist and now he's an educator. He's a lovely storyteller and a kind human. So please enjoy our conversation with Stephen Davis.
3 (32m 20s):
Not to say that I was part of that.
2 (32m 23s):
Steven Davis, congratulations. You survived theater
1 (32m 27s):
School.
3 (32m 28s):
Did I did. And I work at one now. So you know,
2 (32m 32s):
So yeah. So you're on, you've been on both sides of the equation. Now you're in New Jersey. Are you from New Jersey? No,
3 (32m 39s):
Actually I was born in Santa Barbara, California, where boss sends people to leave her house when they can't sleep on the couch anymore. So I was born in Santa Barbara. My dad was a professor at Ohio state at Santa UCFB. And then he got a full time tenured position at Ohio state university. And so when I was living in Columbus, Ohio, we either went to Cedar point, right? Gina, Cedar point or King's island for, for our trips. Those who either went to dusty.
1 (33m 10s):
How old were you when you moved from Santa
3 (33m 11s):
Barbara? For my, my parents. So I was four. When we moved from Santa Barbara to Columbus, I'm a Buckeye. I, I I've always been a Buckeye. So I grew up with my dad being a professor there. And it's, it's a good place to grow up, but I wouldn't want to live there.
1 (33m 31s):
Is that why you went into higher education? Probably because of your dad?
3 (33m 35s):
The crazy thing is my dad always says like having, having understood what higher education is like from my experience, why would you want to do that? Right? It's it's, I, I, I think that at an early age, I discovered that I, because I'm, I'm dyslexic, I have a different way of learning. I don't learn a, to B I learned five different ways of going from a to B. And because of that and having some awful experiences with teachers growing up that, you know, Mrs. Grimmer telling me in fourth grade that I was gonna amount to nothing.
3 (34m 16s):
You know, things like that, that the power that you've expressed in this podcast about the power of teachers and the ways in which, what they say has lasting impressions on us. What I discovered in my time at the theater school and my time after the theater school, I really enjoyed helping other people and to learn. I was a makeup assistant under Nancy Brisky. You guys did the makeup work for, into the woods. I worked with that. I helped supply, oh my gosh, all my benign makeup up there. That, Yeah. And, and, and here's a great example, Nancy Brisky.
3 (34m 57s):
I was a makeup assistant under her. I did that for two years. That was my work study job. And, you know, as I found out through these podcasts, my job was to provide pancake makeup to first-year students, to paint mussels on Leonard Roberts body, not need any pancakes.
1 (35m 15s):
<inaudible> tying it all together. So amazing. It's like, is that, is that your way of storytelling? You have a great memory. And also that you're you, do you have a way of tying everything together? So basically what this comes down to is your, the reason that Leonard is a,
2 (35m 38s):
Is what you're saying.
3 (35m 39s):
No, Leonard is a star because Leonard is a star. Leonard is Leonard. Leonard can make talk about storytelling. He can make a trip to quick check or seven 11, depending on where you live, sound like an event that everyone needs to be a part of. I mean, the man is one of the best storytellers I've ever seen, heard, been around. I love that man. And he is part of the reason I survived the theater school. He, oh yeah. Amy Farrow, Kevin Fox, John Adams, like these are the people Siler Thomas. These are the people that helped me get through what was at times and extremely difficult period in my life to, to that point.
3 (36m 24s):
And in terms of what you've had discussions with the students at the alums, I should say of student Justin Ross, amazing. I was blown away by his interview. I'm like, oh my gosh, this kid has it together. Like all the things that he was doing, I'm like, oh my gosh, the future looks bright. Holy cow. But you know, my, my parents divorced when I was six, my dad started acting in plays. I wanted to be a part of that. I got into a show when I was nine. I was, I played little Charlie in a production of flowers for Algernon that
2 (37m 2s):
Plant actually
3 (37m 3s):
Beautiful ed gray, sick, who wrote come back to the five and dime Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean. He wrote the play. I mean, he directed the play. He wrote come back to the five den on Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean. And it was my first instance with stage combat because in that show, the mother of little Charlie comes in and I'm touching my sister. And she smacks the, the, the kid and ed Gracyn told the actress, just do it. And so I'm sitting there leaning over the crib and the actors came in and locked and I'm nine years old and I'm like, ears ringing, jaw hurts and everything. And I'm like, and they're like, do it again. And I'm like, okay.
3 (37m 45s):
And I get smacked again. And already my first instance in theater, I'm discovering the importance of learning, how to do something for the stage versus reality. So, you know, that had a major impact in my studying on stage combat. And, and I'm a fight choreographer now and doing a lot of different things. So it was a major impact to me, but I did. I got,
2 (38m 9s):
We've never, we've never really talked that much about stage combat on here. And, you know, my, my kind of lasting impression is like, I feel we all, maybe didn't take it quite seriously enough when we were doing it. But actually it turns out to have been one of the most important parts of what we did just in terms of like awareness and, and, and also something that not necessarily people that age realize is the awareness of your impact on the other person when you're on stage, whether you're doing a fight scene or not just the impact of your body and your energy and space. And that has always been a gift of yours, I think, is being very aware of your
1 (38m 55s):
Very aware. Yeah. And I think, I think it's like really for, for me in the stage combat, like I actually got to know my classmates on a deeper level than I ever had before and the trust, because I was like, wait a second, you're going to do what
3 (39m 10s):
We're going to do. Second year, first intro, you know, I had Rick first year and then I had th David ass Kali second year, and I had Don Elko for my first intro. And it was hot L Baltimore. And we were working on Atlanta Wilson's play. And of course, which monologue did I do to get into the school? Jen, if I'm going to talk about Lanford Wilson, which play did I do? You did
1 (39m 36s):
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
3 (39m 43s):
Yeah, exactly. It's like every single podcast you're like, is it burn? This is it burden. So, but anyways, I was in Don <inaudible> intro and the great to work with him, but I had a slip-up. I mispronounced something because reading it from the script and I mispronounced a name and names are always where my dyslexia gets me because I feel very self-conscious and my breath gets held that I'm going to mispronounce someones name and he made fun of me. And I went, I, I, it was like, I lashed out. I was like, I'm dyslexic. And I'm doing the best that I can. The very next day, I'm in the pit eating lunch, working on my lines and Don comes up and he goes, I'm sorry, I apologize.
3 (40m 32s):
But here's the thing. You need to do something about this, because if you don't do something about this, it's going to hold you back. You said, you need to find a tutor. The next day I found a tutor. And I'm glad that I did because the reality is, is it would have held me back and it would have been an issue in the school if it continued to be an issue. And it also pointed the fact is I should have done that research. I should have spent that time before rehearsal to do the work. And I hadn't, my laziness had gotten that
2 (41m 8s):
Easiness is not a word that occurs to me when I think of you.
3 (41m 13s):
Well, it's the thing is, is like the work we, you know, laziness, we're not taught to be lazy in the theater school. You know, we're taught to work ourselves to the bone. Many of your, many of the people on the podcast that talked about, I remember Blake Hackler talking about like the fatigue factor and the reality is like, we're taught that, but in an area that is an issue for me, which I should address. I got timid and lazy. I'm doing a reading of the seagull this weekend and, and like Russian names. I'm like, oh, Zarik, Naya, and Constantine <inaudible>. And, you know, you're just like, oh, you know, but it activates something in me.
3 (41m 56s):
And it, instead of sometimes facing it, I run away from it. And that I have the same,
1 (42m 2s):
Same thing with my health and doctors. I mean, it's the same, what I am afraid of. I can inadvertently or something side door laziness where I'm like, well, I don't want to deal with my blood pressure. So I'm just going to eat sodium. That's not the way it works. Like, and, and, but anyway, it's a, it's a specific kind of like self centered fear, laziness. It's like a, it's not like, oh, I'm just going to be lazy. It's like, I'm going to ignore the specific,
2 (42m 30s):
It's an intentional avoidance of something that's anyway, in point.
3 (42m 33s):
Yeah. Yeah. And so that's an area that I got lazy and he, he was gracious, but he was very specific. And the one thing is, is like, I took that note and I'm like, okay, Steven, you can either do something about this, or this can become an issue that can hold you back. And so I addressed it head on
2 (42m 57s):
And it
3 (42m 57s):
Helped them assuming, oh my gosh, the weekly sessions that I had with my tutor helped me immensely and, and, and getting more comfortable with texts and getting more comfortable and breathing. And then, you know, being able to address things ahead of time, finding the ways to address that ahead of time so that I could keep moving forward. So,
2 (43m 17s):
Wow. So then what w describe the distance between when you presumably left theater school and were planning to be a famous actor, and when you started working at theater school.
3 (43m 29s):
Okay. Well, right out of school, John Jenkins had gotten ill and he had needed someone to teach movement to music. So Sharon Gobert and myself, co-taught his class for him, which was awesome. And then I was brought in to be, I was brought in to teach the stage combat class, as well as a, as like an assistant. And those were both amazing experiences. And those jobs actually led to work later on because they were on my resume and they were like, oh, you you've taught stage combat. And so I ended up teaching stage combat for summer professional training program and all these different things. So those opportunities became greater opportunities.
3 (44m 14s):
When I think about the certification and SFD certification and the makeup assistant, being a makeup assistant led to me working at the lyric opera, I was a makeup artist. There was being paid $60 an hour to face paint people there. And I didn't go down the basement for an audition and feel what boss felt. But, you know, I, I went in and I went in and was, was hired as a makeup artist. And I'm doing all these face painting. You know, they, they bring all the extras and they, we just whip them out and they were broad strokes, but it was great to be making 120 bucks an
4 (44m 52s):
Hour. That's a lot of
3 (44m 53s):
Money, 120 bucks to do this. And that was great. And then working with Nick Sans, Patricia's husband, who did the fights for dangerous liaisons at shutter glow, which Sue Bennett talked about, who was brilliant in that. And I was in uncle Vanya with her, and she was brilliant in that. And then I saw her in house of blue leaves on Broadway and was like, waving like a theater geek. She's amazing. She's amazing. And her a Pele can impression was absolutely breathtaking, you know, to do those, to do that stage combat, I actually got hired and was hired as an African Baton for Romeo Julietta on the stage at the Lyrica with the 70 foot presidium.
3 (45m 38s):
And they, they had us fight and everything, and the assistant director came in and he said, he wanted to look at us fight. And he's like you center stage. So the curtain goes up for 4,500 people and I'm center stage as one of the Capulets fighting. And I'm just like, holy cow,
4 (45m 55s):
That's right out of
3 (45m 56s):
School. That was a couple of years out of school. That was also when I was in no end of blame with Paul Holquist, who I connected with just yesterday and PJ and timeline and great. And was in, was in four shows at the same time. Right. At the moment that I stopped acting.
4 (46m 16s):
Okay.
3 (46m 17s):
That's interesting. Yeah. And yeah, you could have been
4 (46m 22s):
Friends with me and being,
3 (46m 25s):
I, my makeup assistant position, I also worked the Halloween trade show for Ben Nye and Dana and I from Ben. I worked with him for three years at the Halloween trade show in March. And he said, if you want to come out to LA, I will give you a job. And I was at a point in my life in Chicago, where there were too many demons around every corner and I just,
2 (46m 51s):
Yeah. DePaul demons. And then
3 (46m 54s):
Yes, yes, like light bulbs going off when you're working on the lighting crew, reading demons around every corner where I basically decided I needed to make a change, but I also, there was a clear moment. I was in a restaurant bathroom, just down the street from where we were doing no one to blame for timeline. And I splashed some water on my face and I looked in the mirror and I said, you're an asshole. And if you don't change, you're going to die because of the way I was abusing alcohol and doing different things, I could not sustain what I was doing.
3 (47m 36s):
And it was tearing me up inside. And you know, you look at someone like Susan Bennett when, when I saw her work in that is on stage ruse and an uncle Vanya, she was building and building and building and sustaining and learning from the people around her. And she was building like this breadth of work that was just growing and growing and growing right out of school. I was cast in Agamemnon by Steven Berkoff at European rep, which was where timeline was before timeline took over that space. And that show ran for three years and become in and out of that show was awesome. Great impact on me. But if I backtrack to school two days before I graduated high school, my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer and she passed away my senior year.
3 (48m 29s):
She passed away September 14th in 1994. And the whole time I was in school, I was dealing with a lot of that. My mom never wanted me to be an actor. She never wanted to be, to be in theater. She wanted me to be a CPA because I was good in math. She challenged it. She questioned it. A lot of things. She said, you, when I see you on stage, you're just like your father. That is not a compliment coming from her. So here are, my mom is sick. I went with Kevin Fox to a concert of pink Floyd concert over Memorial day weekend. When I went to go visit her and she was getting spinal taps and getting chemotherapy and directed it injected directly into her spine and she was struggling.
3 (49m 15s):
And she said, I can't pay for college anymore. You're going to have to find a way yourself and money had always been held over my head in that, in my relationship. Because when I turned 18, my mom had to turn over the money. My dad invested in the house back to my mom. So there was always this sense of you're a paycheck. You are the money that I'm going to lose. I'm gonna lose my house because of you. I'm gonna lose my I'm going to lose things because of you because of this money, I owe your father. And growing up with that, that weigh down on me, hence therapy. So, you know, and other reasons for therapy because therapy is amazing and it saved my life.
3 (49m 56s):
So you look at the fact that when I was in college, I had a difficult time processing that. And then I'm in school junior year, junior year, I'm in Betsy Hamilton's class. And we had these directing projects that we directed people in, in these projects. And, and I directed a piece and I made the most ridiculous statement in class. I said, I've learned who I want to work with and who I don't want to work with by doing this process. The next day, Betsy sat everybody down. And every single one of my classmates handed me and rightfully so my ass and rip me a new one of how arrogant and self-centered I was being.
3 (50m 47s):
And this was the same time I was in snow, white rose red. And I just kinda, you know, my first main stage show and, and I was like arrogant. And, but that arrogant was armor. That arrogance was, was this block. And so I changed my behavior. I changed my, I changed my behavior. I kind of like started to hold my hands up and sit in a corner. And I did that for a while. And one of my classmates finally came up to me and said, thank you for really listening to us, because I really appreciate the way you're behaving now, by comparison, the way you're behaving before. And I heard that and I was like, what the fuck? I'm like, that is not what I wanted to do.
3 (51m 29s):
I don't want to change everything. I was headed. I had a trajectory of where I was going. Yes, I was arrogant. I got handed my ass. Rightfully so. And I appreciate the fact that I appreciate that honesty. That's what I love. I love brutal honesty. I still, to this day, love brutal honesty. I like it. When people tell me what they truly think. I don't want anyone to hide behind something because that doesn't help anyone. So getting handed that by my classmates, it did change my behavior fast forward, senior year, September 14th, Jim Osstell Hoff's class. I'm sitting there in the, and everyone's like, you know, if you made all this money, what would you do?
3 (52m 9s):
And we're going around the class. And everybody starts talking about what they would do. And the class is over. And I, and I said, I have to go today because I don't think I'm going to be here next week. And they're like, what do you mean? I said, I wrote all this stuff. I did this assignment, but it's all bullshit because the fact of the matter is like, if I had money, I take care of my mom. I take care of my dad. I take care of my brother. I take care of the people closest to me. I wouldn't have my house in Santa Barbara and my apartment in New York and my other apartment in Chicago. I said, because that's not who I am, but that's what I did for this assignment. And when I hear everybody here, I know it's bullshit. The only thing I want to do is take care of my family.
3 (52m 51s):
I walked out of that room and Leonard was waiting there and he just put his arms around me and I lost my shit. And it was at that exact moment that my mom died. So the reality is the time of her death. And the time that that moment occurred was the exact same moment. When I, when I was in undergrad, when I was freshman year, I was in church. I was sitting in church and I was, I was praying. And all of a sudden I felt this overwhelming feeling hit me. And I immediately went home and I called my mom and said, mom, you didn't go to chemotherapy. Did you? And she said, no, I didn't. And I said, why?
3 (53m 31s):
She says, I've already lost my breasts. I don't want to lose my hair. And when we start to think about what we consider beauty to be, this was the thing that stopped her from going further with her treatment. And so you start looking at that, losing her my senior year, the monologue I picked to do at showcase was all about that. We were the first class to go to LA. I picked a monologue from long day's journey. And tonight I should have done Rick's monologue from six degrees of separation. That was the one that was killing it. I did it in John Jenkins class and his technique class and just kicked its butt.
3 (54m 13s):
And that would have done much better in LA. But I have learned from this podcast, it wouldn't have mattered because if I had, I didn't have any interviews because they told Leonard, they said, you know, you're a Chinese friend, your redheaded Chinese friend. He cause I, that was part of my bio. I'm the only quarter Chinese red-headed guy. I know you literally are Chinese. Okay. My mom is half Chinese and I'm quarter. And that was part of my bio, but they they're like, yeah, he did that very strange monologue. Eugene O'Neill was a strange monologue. Well to LA LA LA. It is. But if I had had, I didn't have any meetings, didn't want any meetings to be honest with you. But I went out there and I had no intent.
3 (54m 53s):
I didn't care that I didn't get any meetings because I got in the car and I drove to Santa Barbara and I drove right up to the doorstep of the house that we lived in. And I took my mom's ashes and I put it on the, at the, at the door. I put it outside the house because that I wanted to return her to that place. And that was the reason I went to LA. I didn't go to LA to be famous. I wanted to do theater in New York because of that's what we worked on in the theater in New York and in Chicago. Cause that's what we were taught at the theater school. We were taught to uphold that. And that's what I want. Right. And, and, you know, I said, when I lived, when I went there, I'm like, I'm never going to move. I live in LA, it's never going to happen.
3 (55m 35s):
And then you took the job with job. I worked for Ben Nye for, you know, three and a half years. This is the thing. Never tell the universe. Never because the universe is going to go. Right. Okay. So, so you know, all these different things happened right. In the moment I talked to Paul Hornquist about this yesterday, about how cause he was in knowing the blame and he thought I had it all together. And, and I'm like, no, that was it. Kevin Fox. And I met at the taco bell down the street from Wrigley field. And I said, I'm, I'm giving it up. And he was like, why your career is taking off?
3 (56m 16s):
I said, because I have to, my dad was pissed, but just this past year, my dad said, I understand now I understand why you gave it up because you wouldn't be here. If you had kept doing it. And
1 (56m 34s):
You, and you really feel like just to reiterate, like you feel like when you splash the water on your face, that was when you were in for shows and everything. And you thought that you, you just got a sense that like your life would end for destructive ways. If you stayed on the path you were on, right.
2 (56m 51s):
Like you were a runaway, I'm getting the image that you felt like you were a runaway train. Yeah.
3 (56m 56s):
Yeah. And I was not, you know, EV to everybody's outside viewpoint. They were like, why are you leaving? You're leaving right. When you're, you're getting somewhere. And I'm like, I felt a rhythm and a tempo inside of me that was dying. And I didn't want to fan the flames.
2 (57m 14s):
So would, would it be fair to say it worked, that you made that course correction at that point? Oh yeah.
3 (57m 20s):
Okay. Like the fact everything that's happened in my life since, you know, but I started the theater company and everything was going great. And then it really was my first year of grad school, because that was the beginning. I've maxed out my credit cards. I did this, we got non-profit status. And then the company was going in a direction that I didn't agree with. And the wolves turned and I walked away.
2 (57m 48s):
So when you, so the death of your mother happened at the beginning of your final year of school, did that, it sounds like what you're saying. And part of that, that had the effect of giving you a kind of perspective that you probably wouldn't have otherwise had. Is that fair to say? Yeah. Okay. And what, what's it like to be processing that at the same time is, I mean, because you're already processing so much to be in theater school and maybe even, especially to be in your final year to that on top of it, must've,
3 (58m 22s):
It was a lot, but here's the great thing about your podcast, listening to Jimmy McKernan, talking about his father's death when he was directing his piece, listening to, you know, Bridget, Cubito talking about trauma, listening to Rob Hess, talking about the trauma burritos. Oh my God. I just like so much that I didn't feel alone anymore. Listening to what Jimmy went through with that and that process and the ways that he felt that he transferred any displaced aggressions onto the people he was working with those elements. But the, the reverence that you have for him as a director, you know, it, it, it made me because originally I was like thinking, you know, I'm, I'm alone in this.
3 (59m 11s):
I no longer felt alone. That was huge, huge to not feel alone anymore in this process. You know, to me, it's like also listening Jen, to talk about, like, you lost your mom in 2011, and then what you discovered in 2015 at that picnic, you know, to me, it's like thinking about the fact that I lost my mom in 1994 and when with her death, I kind of elevated her status and she raised her up on a pedestal. My graduation day from DePaul was probably one of the most depressing days of my life, my brother and my father, weren't speaking to each other. My stepfather was there. He and my father, weren't talking to one another.
3 (59m 51s):
They, Tim Donovan was next to me. I'm sobbing. I'm absolutely sobbing. I go up on stage. There's a picture of me. You know, if you want to buy your graduation photos, walking on the stage, I looked like death. And because it was, it was not what it was supposed to be. I had written a letter to the school, my junior year of saying, it's been a long time since you've done Shakespeare, you need to do it again. Romeo and Juliet needs to be what you're doing. They pick Romeo and Juliet, Christina, Dara's directing. And I love that Christina dare she and I got along great. And I thought, Hey Romeo, I'm going to prove to my mom that I am not my father. And I'm going to play this part. She passes away.
3 (1h 0m 33s):
Castless comes out. I stopped going to the cast list. The night of posting my junior year, went into the woods, got posted because into the wood got posted. I looked at the list I saw I was in hunting, cockroaches directed by Paul Taylor, loved that play, saw Leonard's name as the Wolf and into the woods. So excited. I'm like, Hey Leonard, you got cast in a main stage show. And he's like, great. The only African-American in the entire casting pool gets cast as an animal, as an animal. Yeah. And he's like, it would be fine if I was also the prince, but I got asked as an animal.
3 (1h 1m 13s):
And my whole perception changed in that moment. And, and Leonard Leonard was my dear friend, the entire four years, Amy as well. She, she and Kevin, we called each other, the pig dogs. It's like Kevin pig, dog. And Amy picked up and she would always like push on my nose whenever I got too serious. She's like Steven, calm down. And you took on them. But the cast list goes up for Romeo and Juliet. And I walk up and Leonard walks up at the exact same time. It's the morning after. And I see that I'm listed as Tybalt and I had keys. Great part by the way. Great, great part. Yeah. But I'm sorry.
3 (1h 1m 54s):
I think so. And, and, and, and it was, and I was certified. I had all these things. It makes sense. I had the key to the makeup room. Lennon's there with me. I walk into the makeup room and I saw because I'm not going to be able to prove to my mom that I'm a good actor. I'm playing the angry young man. And this is exactly what she said about my acting. All. I had a meeting with Christine and she said, I would have had to have gone with my third choices. Juliet, if I cast you as Romeo. And I'm like, what do you mean? She, she says, Karen mold is taller than you. Karen was my roommate junior year.
3 (1h 2m 35s):
I, you know, loved her, got along with her, but she's like, yeah. And they have the thing. Leonard is Romeo. Of course, Leonard is Romeo. I got to play Romeo years later, I'm in Chicago. So I got that out of my system, but I see Leonard in class and he's just sitting in the corner. He's like, ah, and I just went up and gave him a hug. And I was like, I love you. I, you know, I love that. I love him. And Amy, I officiated their wedding.
2 (1h 3m 3s):
Oh, look at that beauty. He can't see, he's holding up a beautiful picture of Amy Farrow, Leonard Roberts, getting married and Steven.
3 (1h 3m 11s):
Yeah. In Santa Barbara, California. So, you know, so it's like crazy to go back there again. And then to be part of that joy,
2 (1h 3m 19s):
I have a question. I don't understand how you onstage reminded your mom of your dad. I think I missed something there.
3 (1h 3m 29s):
Cause my dad, okay. My dad was when we were in California, my dad did not get tenure. My mom did not want to leave set of Barbara. She also had had a relationship with one of my dad's graduate students. And I didn't find this out until two years after her death. And so just like what you find out at the pic, you find out this information and you're like, oh my gosh, what I've learned about this woman is completely different than the reality. My dad's response to that was to become very, like, we call them flaky.
3 (1h 4m 12s):
Jake. He always had this kind of exuberant energy that just went all over the place. He got involved in acting because it's something that he wanted to do, but he never pursued it. He started acting in shows. I'm nine years old going to see him in getting out, he's playing the pimp and getting out and I'm sitting in the audience and they're like, why is this nine-year-old kid here? You know? And you know, that show, which is not a ghetto show, just want to point that out. But is a, is an amazing show. I think Leslie ivory, I think, was talking about, about being in a production of it and whatnot, but it's like absolutely incredible. But to be in that, watching him in that, like he expressed himself, he, he let all these feelings out.
3 (1h 4m 54s):
When I discovered later on about my mom's situation, that helps to understand why my dad behaved the way that he did. I called my dad up and I'm like, talk to me about this. And my dad was like, you were never supposed to find that out. And then it was not until that moment that because I never saw my parents love each other. It was that moment that I saw that my dad loved my mom. And so it took all this time, but what that did and the seeking of truth, we read Oedipus. We we'd go on journeys of truth. I started on this journey of truth. I wanted to know things. I took my mom's old computer and I started looking through her files, big mistake.
3 (1h 5m 38s):
And I'm reading through her files and they're in her journal is Steven is my cancer.
2 (1h 5m 46s):
What
3 (1h 5m 49s):
Was it? The exact same time that I'm in four shows in Chicago and I'm drinking a lot and I'm doing all this stuff. And I read that and I realize something has to change. Oh my God. So you find out this information and you put the brakes. And I just discovered that everywhere I walked in Chicago, I was having, I was running into things that I couldn't hide from the blue demons in my closet. And I moved out to California and I start something new and I start a new, a new journey and, you know, having a kind of a fresh start. And I lived in Chicago.
3 (1h 6m 29s):
I lived in LA for four years before I went to grad school. So, you know,
2 (1h 6m 35s):
I have to say something that I hope it's okay to say, we always do the, let me run this by your thing. Right, right. Before we interview our guests and I was going to bring up as my, let me run this by you too boss, that I'm tired of my own vanity and I'm ready to let go of it. You know, I'm ready to figure out how to let go of it. I just keep thinking like your mother's vanity really killed her.
3 (1h 7m 5s):
Yeah. And this is where, you know, my, my, my dad later in life got alopecia totalis and lost all the hair on his entire body. And he lost all the hair. The month that his own father was that age when he died, I'm 48 years old. My mom died at 50, like I'm of the age that she was struggling with this stuff. And, and, and that's, that's crazy, but like, I've talked to people who have also have alopecia and that are losing their hair and it's very difficult. But I told, I said, I would shave my head in an instant, if it meant allowing someone to feel more confident about their journey or struggles with health.
3 (1h 7m 50s):
Now here's the crazy thing. I went to work at Northwestern university at the center for biotechnology. The year, the six months after my mom died, Tamoxifen came on the market. You know, the ways in which science does certain things and has certain advancements. And it's like, you start to think the, what if quality, not in a Marvel sense of what if Sean Gunn can talk more about that. But, you know, in, in, in the aspect of what, if, if she had held on longer, what if that drug could have changed, but, but she didn't lose her hair. But when she was on her death bed, she weighed 70 pounds.
3 (1h 8m 32s):
And I went home over, over labor day weekend, but I was still holding on hope that she was going to see Romeo and Juliet and that she was going to accept me as,
2 (1h 8m 43s):
And so like, it's not the same kind of vanity, but, but that was also what you were really contending with. The vanity of needing the people, pleasing the pick me, choose me, love me, then the need to be seen in a certain type of way by your mother was what created the runaway train that you then had to completely jump away from. So, Steven, when you were saying that you're making you're healing something now thinking that you weren't alone losing a parent going through this really difficult time in early life.
2 (1h 9m 23s):
I don't know why it's strikes me because I spent so much time talking about this exact thing, but somehow the way you are saying it is really, it's really touching me that like we hold on to these very active hurts like that. You could still feel alone now from 25 years ago. Like, I, I don't, that's so weird that the brain does that.
3 (1h 9m 54s):
Well. I mean, I mean, Bridget talked about trauma in the body. She talked about that in her Feldman Christ's work and everything. And when I was out in California, when I got fired from that job in November, on November 1st and I applied to grad school, the job that I went to next was to be the executive director of a massage therapy school. And I became a massage therapist. And during deep tissue work as part of our training, I was getting deep tissue work on the chest, in the intercostals in between the ribs and everything. And I lost it on the table because that's where my mom resides is right in the center of my chest. So you release that tension from the body.
3 (1h 10m 34s):
What that releasing did is it opened me up to the possibilities that came immediately following it. It opened me up to the love that I have with my wife. It opened me up to the possibility of grad school. It opened me up by releasing and letting that go. I was able to feel this huge weight, come off my shoulders by allowing it to really devastate me on the table as I was working with my, with my classmates through the, the training. And, and that's a good thing. I have always had a powerful, emotional response to that. I do.
3 (1h 11m 15s):
And oftentimes that powerful, emotional response pushes people away. And I regret that fact that happened in, under it happened during my training at theater school. And, and I don't like the fact that that is truth. But the reality is, is when I feel something, I feel it deeply. I feel it. I, you know, we, we are taught to open the channel through the link ladder training that we got and I opened the channel and it, it, it just kept flowing. And
2 (1h 11m 46s):
How does it drive people away? You're saying like, oh, it's too much. It's too intense people. Can't take it.
3 (1h 11m 51s):
Yeah. And I'll just use the theater school. As example, first year, our, our voice teacher was Peter <inaudible>. He came from Shakespeare and company was very close to Christina dare and he was great. And I was working on things. Jen Kober talked about a student in her class, John Lanez, who was, who was, who had had a breakdown while she was gone. And it was great for her to hear that. And what that relationship is now. Well, John was my dear friend and John, John had a breakdown in his first quarter at school. And third quarter, we were sitting in the classroom and Peter was like, who wants to work?
3 (1h 12m 31s):
And no one raised their hand. And I said, screw it I'll work. And I started doing queen MAB from Romeo and Juliet because I played Rakisha and Peter stopped me and was like, Nope, you're not working on that. You're going to work on the speech that you've been working on with me, which is the bastard speech from king Lear, the most overdone.
2 (1h 12m 51s):
But I love it.
3 (1h 12m 52s):
I love it. And I had a huge emotional uproar happen. He had me pounding on the mats. Everybody in the class went like, like to the backs of the walls. And I finished it and I got leveled by my classmates are there. And I'm like, they were like, we knew that you've always had this in you. And they connected it back to John. And I'm like, I'm my own person, John, that happened in another section. It didn't even happen in our section, but I'm my own person. And I'm feeling something and what happened, my junior and senior and junior, actually sophomore and junior year.
3 (1h 13m 37s):
I didn't care anymore. If I had an emotional response, I was just gonna let it out. We had to pick our first monologue from, for Christine said, pick a new, pick a new Shakespeare monologue. I'm reading a fellow to read, to find a Niagara monologue. And I come to Othello's, be-all the hold. I have a weapon, his speech after he's killed ghost Desdemona. And I'm like, I have to do this. And I lose it in class and everybody just stays away. And then grit from six degrees. I had just come from a mood team as a class. I had the rainbow shorts underneath my pants. And at the end of the speech, thinking about the given circumstances of that speech, Rick in the next thing we hear about him is that he's jumped out of a window and he's killed himself.
3 (1h 14m 20s):
So I'm in the classroom on the top level of the building. And I just strip all my clothes off except for my rainbow shorts and my leggings. And I go to the window and I throw up in the window and I lean out the window and I say the last line out the window. And I close the window and everyone is like backed off. And when I, when Jane Alderman's class came and we were picking which monologue to do, and I didn't do that one as the first one, I did the, the one from a long day's journey. And tonight my classmates were like, yeah, do that one, do that one. Because, and I was at that point trying to please them because I felt so lost having lost my mother, but the Rick monologue would have done me so much better, but it wouldn't have mattered because I wasn't going out to LA anyways.
2 (1h 15m 14s):
Right. But do you, I'm guessing that you see it now, the reaction of your classmates is it's too real. It's too honest. It make you doing this makes me feel like I have to do something about myself, right? Yeah,
3 (1h 15m 29s):
Totally, totally. And here's the thing about it. I'm a director now. I'm I, I do still act in things I'm, I'm in our production of Christmas, Carol on the adult, tiny Tim, who's the narrator talking through things. So I still act, but it's not my pursuit. And I try to navigate these issues and, and it's difficult, but you know that
2 (1h 15m 57s):
You're directing at the school.
3 (1h 15m 58s):
Yeah. I directly in the 13 years I've been here, I've done 25 productions in 10 years and then teach my acting classes and theater. And I've taught 22 different classes at the college level while I've been here from a WWE class, with the business professor to Enactus, to all these things. I mean, I've, I've been all over the map and this is Jen Ellison talking about teaching an ethics class. Like the fact of the matter is, is we adapt everybody adapts. And so theater we're taught to adapt and we can educate ourselves. So, you know, like people, like, we want you to teach this class. I'm like, okay, okay.
2 (1h 16m 36s):
I can do it. So, so being, so when it must be such an interesting experience to be with your students and have recollections and real, probably visceral even responses to like, okay, I know exactly the thing that you're going through. And you may even have people that you identify as being similar to you, you know, younger versions of yourself and the tricky part. I mean, that's such a wonderful gift, but it's something to be navigated so carefully because the tricky part is when you overly identify right with the person and then you, you like, you don't have enough perspective and that's to help them. But do you, do you think about that a lot? The,
3 (1h 17m 16s):
Yeah. John Jenkins, the aesthetic distance. How's your old man, you know, like, like when do we have the aesthetic distance? There've been challenges that I've had. I mean, there are adolescents growing up. They they're told they're adults, but they haven't taken responsibility for their own lives. So they're not adults. And, and you have this major challenge that these students have, and I've, I've gotten calls at home. I've taken students to the wellness center, I've done things to try to protect them and, and gone out of my way to do so and seeing them through difficult times, because the fact is, is that a lot of us are not talking about the conflicts that we have.
3 (1h 18m 2s):
We're not discussing it. And I might wait, awakened something in them and I have to be ready to catch them. And that's, that's that, that we awaken the spirit and we have to be able to realize that you might need a safety net.
2 (1h 18m 18s):
Oh yeah. You can't just bring it up. And then in St. Later.
3 (1h 18m 22s):
Yeah. And there've been, there've been times that I've succeeded in there have been times that I've failed. Blake hacker talked about that beautifully in his interview with you guys about the ways that, you know, you, you succeed and you fail in this profession, but you do the best you can.
5 (1h 18m 45s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina <inaudible> are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Polizzi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.