Kevin: Hello, and welcome back to Subspace Radio.
It's me, Kevin.
Rob: and me Rob.
Kevin: And we're here to talk about Season 5, Episode 8 of Lower Decks, Upper Decks.
How confusing.
Rob: Very confusing.
That's not what the show's called, Kevin.
The show called Lower Decks, but they've got an episode titled Upper Decks.
What's going on?
They've gone crazy.
Thank god they're, they're cancelling this show because,
Kevin: They're off, uh, off their rockers.
Rob: Please respond in all caps, uh, underneath.
That would be greatly appreciated.
Kevin: This episode starts with jack o lantern carving, and once
again I feel like they were aiming for Halloween and slightly missed.
Rob: Yeah, we didn't actually get to see any jack o lantern faces.
We just got, uh, V'ger, and, uh, the Cerritos, yeah.
Kevin: Um, yeah, uh, strange.
I feel like they must have been making these episodes a year ago, and they
were like, well, it'll be kind of at next year, Halloween is in there
somewhere, let's take a shot, and if we're right, it'll be awesome, and if
we're wrong, it'll be close enough.
Rob: And we don't really do Christmas seasons within the we've never done, like,
Kevin: No, no, but Lower Decks can get away with
Rob: Yes, Lower Decks can get away with it, um, Uh, and, yeah, and Mariner coming
in being going into a painting world.
I'm there going, is this, uh,
Kevin: Yeah, they were clearly like, what things do we want to say that
are so crazy, we don't actually want to do them on Lower Decks,
but they are funny to imagine.
Rob: I just add my favorite responses from Boimler there go, Oh, I want
to go to a painting universe.
Kevin: I'm going to get stuck in a painting.
Rob: Ha ha ha ha
Kevin: got to ride a rainbow.
Yeah.
Of course, Upper Decks, the conceit here is to kind of, um, mirror the pattern
of the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode, Lower Decks, which inspired
this entire series, and take a break from telling the stories of our regular
Star stars, the lower deckers, and spend a week with our upper deckers.
And we'll talk about how well we thought that worked.
But it was, it felt to me like one of those things that was like a Post It note
on the wall of we must do this someday.
And with the last season on the table, they were like, well,
take that Post It note down.
It's time to do all those ideas.
And they had to get it done.
Rob: Yes, and in the week since we've recorded this, I should have used that
week to actually research what that episode was that I mentioned last week,
where they kind of did this before, or at least maybe it was a moment.
Like I remember at the end of an episode, where, like, they've got the
captain standing forward and she goes, You don't with the Cerritos upper deck.
And it's like a, a pan shot, like, landscape of all of them, like, Ransom
striking, a heroic pose, and all
Kevin: I agree.
We've been here before.
And to me, that was the main problem with this episode, is it wasn't
actually that special or unusual.
Certainly nowhere near what was done in the original Next Gen episode, Lower
Decks, that we'll talk about in a bit.
Spoilers for the rest of this show.
Uh, yeah.
I feel like that's the problem is, is Lower Decks really was a step away
from the everyday, and we got to meet some brand new characters, live in
some really unfamiliar situations, and, perhaps most prominently, see how it
was to be kept in the dark from what was going on on the other half of the ship.
Um, and none of that was happening here because we know our, our
commanders as they are called here, or the bridge crew so very well.
We've had entire episodes centered around all of them.
Um, I was saying earlier this season that I was enjoying the break from
the bridge crew, and then they brought them back for Starbase 80!?
So, Um, yeah, it felt like an obvious Post It note on the wall that had already
been done halfway or three quarters of the way before, and so I'm not sure
we needed to spend one of our precious episodes of this final season on this.
Rob: It was very, well, for me, it was very much a case of, they really
telegraphed it, not even Post It note.
Like, on that post it note, they put neon signs to actually
open the episode with Mariner
Kevin: We're kind of the stars of the show around
Rob: Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This show, this ship wouldn't work without us.
And I'm there going, ooh, that's, that's, I, yeah, there's meta commentary,
Kevin: that bright a lantern on it, you're really gonna have to have
something special to deliver on it.
Rob: It was so bright.
And then we didn't see them at all.
So it wasn't just a case about the upper deckers.
It was about the rest of the ship as well.
Because we had, like, beta and alpha teams as well.
And it wasn't until right at the end, like you said, where the gag
is, all this stuff is happening, but they're not even conscious of it.
But it's just a gag of, as, as Mariner says, nah, you're just messing with me,
my dad's not here, closing, and then you see all the cow creatures going across.
Space cows!
Um, uh, yeah, so, um, for me there were nice moments to, to focus on
those upper deckers we haven't seen for a while, like we got uh, uh, we
got some time in the engineering room, an ensign who came out of nowhere?
I don't think we've It sounded either Australian or New Zealand.
Kevin: Oh, yes.
Yeah, I know that actor.
I think she, I think I know her from, uh, uh, Mythic Quest on Apple TV+.
I think she plays like one of the leads as, as like a programmer in that.
Poppy.
She plays Poppy Li on Mythic Quest.
Uh, fans may also know her from Please Like Me, Camp, and she played a small
role, Actor Sif in Thor Ragnarok.
Rob: Oh, okay.
Kevin: Um, yeah, so, distinctive voice, um, she's funny, like, I am
very much a fan of her character on Mythic Quest, and if she was given
a full starring role on a Star Trek series, I think it would be awesome.
Uh, cause she plays a very good, like, you know, heartful but
funny nerd in, in Mythic Quest, and so, yeah, I like it here.
Rob: Well, this would be what's considered the C plot?
Because like, the A plot was the captain trying to go around and see everybody.
Which we've kind of touched on before, like, especially with, with, um, uh,
Janeway, been episodes, uh, where, you know, she needs to know everyone.
Um, and then the B plot is kind of dealing with Shaxs, Shaxs going through
his, uh, his psychological trauma,
Kevin: Yeah, we've got the B'goons in the cargo bay with Ransom.
Yeah.
And the visiting Federation specialist who be an evil alien.
Rob: And the aliens that don't accept compliments.
Kevin: There's T'Ana, who is recalibrating her pain meter in sickbay.
Rob: And has that, has that assistant been there before?
Kevin: I have not noticed Nurse Westlake before, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Rob: Nurse Westlake is amazing, and I'm there going, why have, we've seen Westlake
before, I believe we have, a couple of times, but to give Westlake that much
Kevin: Westlake has 13 appearances in, decks.
So
Rob: you, you can see my, you, I'm sorry.
This is a podcast listeners, because you would see my awkward face
emoji right now go, Ooh, because he was outstanding in this episode.
Kevin: Yeah.
Oh.
Very much like gossipy in, in a very funny way.
No one else would put up with you, darling.
Rob: And then gives her a scratch on the head at the end.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: Quite patronizing, but
Kevin: I refilled the hyposprays.
We're good to go the next time some virus makes everyone sing or whatever.
Shade throne at Strange New Worlds and and fair enough.
Rob: And rightly so, I think we're the only two fans who didn't like
that episode, but I'm happy with you and me on this oasis together.
Kevin: Yes.
Yes.
I mean, they really just took the bridge crew and said, you each get a story.
I'm not sure we could even agree on what was the A, the B, the
Rob: Fair enough, yeah.
Kevin: Like, they're just all separate plots that at the end
all contribute to the solution to the enemy, intruders on the
Rob: Yes.
Yeah, I think we tread ground with Ransom before, like he plays the buffoon to,
yeah, he takes the, the slack being the buffoon, the idiot that everyone hates, so
that they become, that's been done before,
Kevin: It's been done before.
It worked for me.
You know, that thing where a bad joke is you groan the first time.
You want to leave the second time.
And then the third time it's actually starting to work.
Rob: talking about my comedy career right there.
I do that in inverted commas, big
Kevin: like Ransom has just like passed that threshold
where now it's actually funny.
He solves problems by lifting weights.
Rob: Look, if it was.
If it was, if it was anyone other than Jerry O'Connell, I, I don't
know if I'd be so endeared to him.
But I love Jerry O'Connell as an actor so much.
I've grown up with him since his early days as Stand By Me, um, to
see where he is now, and him and, you know, Rebecca Romijn being an
awesome power Star Trek couple.
Kevin: It's so, yeah, it is such a strange second or third act to that guy's
career, and it's really working for him.
What works is that it's knowing, like, he doesn't take himself
seriously in that persona either, and it's just really funny.
And I think that's what's working for me for the first time here
is, he goes, Everybody stop.
I have a plan that will get us out of this situation.
First I'll lift this with this arm and then I'll lift this with this arm.
Oh yeah.
I feel it.
It's working.
And there was no plan is so obvious.
And the fact that he knew there was no plan is also obvious.
And so you're kind of in on the joke for the first time, I feel like.
Rob: I do love him going, all right, gather round.
Let me tell you a story.
And most likely if it was a Picard or a Riker doing that
you go, oh, okay, it's Ransom.
You go, this story's not gonna make any sense.
It's just gonna be about him pressing weights for god's sake.
Kevin: You gotta believe in the power of exercise.
Is working out?
So, all these little vignettes, like none of them for me really were
interesting enough for me to buy into.
Like the idea that the ship's chief medical officer was not prescribing
anesthesia and that we are to accept that and buy into it as reality.
I don't know if I'm taking this cartoon too seriously.
But all of these stories had that sort of element.
Rob: If you added the, the, the doctor, the cat doctor, was admi
Kevin: Of course, lest I forget.
All of these stories had that sense of two dimensionality about them that they
were none of them worthwhile as a story.
So, in the end, the, the whole episode that was made up of them
felt in a way less than the sum of its parts rather than more.
Rob: Yeah, look, it is very much a case of it let us know we've got a stacked
cast of characters, you know and we have for the last five seasons, and
it's a credit to them to have created such a wide range of fascinating
characters like, you know, Billups, like,
Kevin: Andarithio Billups , if you will.
Rob: And even the, captain's assistant, Stevens.
Stevens is gorgeous.
I was like, well, you've got to check the check your timeline.
And the invasion's happening.
But this isn't in the schedule.
Hilarious.
Kevin: The, uh, the surprise date with the captain's husband at the end was nice.
That is
Rob: That
Kevin: like, a full stop at the end of this series, is that is the
end of the arc for that couple.
Um, having the dinner date in Paris is a reference to the early Next Gen
episode, We'll Always Have Paris, where Captain Picard has a, uh, date
with an old flame on the holodeck.
In, in Paris, it's the exact same rooftop and the, the exact same view
of the Eiffel Tower in the background.
Rob: Of course, if Lower Decks did that, they'd be Will.
Always have Paris, and so it's Boimler having a date with
Will Riker in Paris as well.
Kevin: I've also gotta point out, um, Paul F.
Tompkins was cast as Zurkel, the unmasked alien who reveals that his
purpose there is to steal the alien's cloaking organ and maybe eat what's left
depending on, uh, texture and flavor.
Rob: whether it's delicious or not.
Kevin: Yeah, I feel like, um, Paul F.
Tompkins has been typecast as the gourmand of Star Trek.
Anytime a character needs to care a little too much about what they're
putting in their mouth, you call Paul F.
Tompkins.
Rob: And we had a little bit of Migleemo.
Not too much of Migleemo, just a little bit, especially
dealing with Shaxs as well.
Kevin: Yeah, he, uh, proposed, uh, therapy the end, and that was well received.
Rob: Um, which was really good, but, um, the transformation from the diplomat
into the insectoid creature, that answered a lot it was so gross, and,
because we haven't had that much level of animated grossness for many seasons,
that's, it's like, I remember when, you know, the first scene of Lower Decks
Kevin: Bat'leth in the leg, burned into my, uh, memory forever.
Rob: You gotta get through that before you get to the gold of Lower Decks.
Um, but yeah, that was a horrifying transformation and
made me answer a lot of questions.
Is that an actual creature?
Was that a living being who they have just destroyed?
Or was it, yeah, uh, there's
Kevin: have no idea.
It's, yeah, it's another one of those unanswered questions.
Rob: Um, and I did like the cute final shot of the space cows and the little
tiny runt of the litter being able to catch up and so it's like pressing,
trying in space to catch up and then it just turns into a ball and catches up
with the mother and her and her siblings.
That was a cute way to end.
Kevin: Yeah, it cute.
I'm not sure what it's in reference to.
Like, does the small one represent the Cerritos behind the rest of Starfleet?
I don't know.
I didn't quite, I didn't quite see what they were going for other than, oh, nice.
Rob: I was going with oh nice but I like how you brought a bit more
deep, uh, deep thought into it.
Um, and I did like the gag at the end where everyone's bagging out Mariner now.
That's what I really like, T'Lyn sorta like when, no, I am making fun of you.
I also saw your father as well, and here, Really, did you?
No, I am mocking you.
Kevin: So, there were a couple of other times in Star Trek where we
have done that, that, uh, let's go meet another part of the crew that
we don't normally spend time with.
And of course, there was the original Lower Decks episode.
So I'd like to talk about that.
There was also an episode of Voyager.
We talked about Good Shepherd before where, um, Captain Janeway takes some
misfit crew under her wing, but there was an earlier one as well called
Learning Curve, Tuvok does much the same.
Rob: With some of the Maquis, right?
Kevin: Yeah, that's right.
So we might start with that, I think, uh, and finish with Lower
Decks because it does feel fitting here at the end of this series to
revisit the, uh, the origin of ideas.
Rob: you want to look at our, uh, Good Shepherd episode, go back
to one of our previous episodes of, um, uh, Subspace Radio.
Kevin: Yes, indeedy.
And I'll say, perhaps, uh, Good Shepherd, later in the run,
done with more confidence, um, probably has more to recommend it.
But Learning Curve here, I rewatched it today.
Not bad.
Season 1, Episode 16 of Voyager, and this is early on where the fact that this was
a, a blend of two crews, one Starfleet, one not, was still very much in play.
And In general, I think this episode probably was in the original
pitch deck for the series because there are a lot of elements from
Caretaker which are used here.
There's the, the bioneural gel pack circuitry on Voyager that's mentioned.
Like, first thing, it's one of the first things you learn about Voyager is
gel packs, and they rarely played into anything in the, uh, series, but they
are core to the story here, um, there's, there's Neelix's cooking in the mess hall,
and his position as, uh morale officer.
These things are, are used as well.
The relationship between Neelix and Mr.
Vulcan, Tuvok is, is very present here.
But yeah, the, the core of this story is these four Maquis, former Maquis,
who did not ask to be part of Starfleet.
They understand the must needs, and they will do their best, uh, to fit
in, but they are being held to an even higher standard, and told if you're
going to serve on a Starfleet ship, you need to be Starfleet officers
with everything that comes with it.
So we are going to give you a crash course in, uh, Starfleet cadet, uh, training.
This is, um, it's a tough ask for these characters.
They, they very rightly go, well, we didn't ask for this.
You're holding us to a standard we don't want to raise to.
What are you gonna do, kick us off the ship?
Uh, and I think they have a point.
Like it's, it's really interesting that in this story that they do have a point.
At the same time, I can kind of see that Voyager, a ship where the Starfleet crew
outnumbers the Maquis, uh, is designed to work a certain way and can only bend
so much to, uh, accommodate these Maquis.
If it's going to make the long trip back to the Alpha Quadrant, they're
going to need to train these people up to, to work within the system.
So, yeah, it's a, it's a fun episode.
And uh, for me, this is a glimpse of a, of the premise of Voyager,
the original premise of the show, actually working at a hundred percent.
Rob: Yeah, it's definitely what we were signing up for, and
especially I was signing up for, going this is something different.
It's not just Next Generation carbon copy.
There is a linear arc that we can follow here.
And this is what happens if a small percentage of your ship does not want
to be there, doesn't need to be there, has no right to be there, um, but
you need to have them there because you all want to get back um, together
and you've got to see how that works.
And it's a shame it never really ventured anywhere, like, what we've talked about
many times before with Voyager, they
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: wanted to be brave and bold, but then they chickened out and just said,
well, let's stick to what we know.
And so you get episodes like this, which are outliers and don't really
have anything to back them up.
Kevin: Yeah.
There, I mean, there are also glimpses about why maybe this
couldn't have worked longer form.
Like the, the scenes where they are, these four officers are unhappy with
their lot and being insubordinate are objectively unpleasant.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: Uh, and so you stretch that to a season or more than a season,
and it's like, I'm not sure the long form version of this is anything
that anyone would want to watch.
But here in a compact, um, one episode form, it really works.
I really love the, uh, the
Rob: Well maybe they should have just created their own one person
show to work through their trauma and then seemed to work all right
and was stop invading insects.
Kevin: Who is that?
Who is that crewman?
Um, Bingston!
There's another one.
There's another one who I'm not sure I've ever seen Bingston
Rob: I'm
Kevin: If look it up, I'm sure he's been in 20 episodes.
I really enjoyed the scene in the mess hall where they have basically
walked out on Tuvok's training.
Tuvok's got Chell running laps of the cargo bay for insubordination, and the
other three kind of go, Well, screw this.
We're out of here.
Uh, we don't need to put up with this.
Worst case, you could put us in the brig and that would
be better than this, so we're
And they, they go and have a drink in the mess hall and Chakotay comes
in and goes, you want to tell me your version of what happened?
Uh, and they're like, well, it's completely unreasonable.
We didn't ask for this.
We're being held to a standard that we didn't choose.
Uh, that's not the Maquis way of doing things.
And Chakotay goes, Oh, so you'd like to do it the Maquis way?
And like, that's right.
And so he punches him in the face and he falls on the ground in mess hall.
And Chakotay goes, Yeah, that's the Maquis way of settling our differences.
If you want to do it that way, we're welcome to try.
And the conversation ends there, like the conflict is more or less resolved at that
point, um, and it is very entertaining.
Works really well for this one episode.
Again, I don't know what the full length version of that would look like.
Rob: Fair enough too.
It and it's very much a case of that sets up these four as not only unpleasant to be
about, be around, but also spoiled brats kind of know, you don't know how good
you've got at being with the Federation.
Kevin: I'm really curious if you tried to break a season one or two of Voyager
with that tension core to the season and you go, okay, it's not episodic.
It's a serialized story where, you know, there's going to be a moment of
truth towards the end of the season.
There's going to be a, uh, a, darkest, lowest point right near the end of the
season where the crew is completely split.
They have mutinied.
One has run off with the, the saucer section of the ship, whatever it is.
Like what would the epic version of this crew splintering and
finding its way back together be?
Perhaps it, perhaps it is great.
Maybe it just couldn't have happened in the nineties, but,
Rob: Maybe.
Yeah.
It could definitely happen today as we've seen what they've pushed with,
um, with Discovery, no matter I rail against Discovery, but they have pushed
arcs hardcore within their storylines to whatever success they have achieved.
But it's definitely something they could work on more now, brave enough,
because of shows where narrative over many seasons is acceptable, like Game
of Thrones, your, um, Westworlds, all that type of, all those type of shows.
Um, and that would be interesting to see, you know, it could be a season
arc of the revolution and the split, and then how, but how is that resolved?
How, how does the Voyager become not Maquis not Starfleet, its own, its own,
Kevin: At the end of this episode, like, the, the, the plot point is that
this is resolved, Tuvok ultimately earns their respect, not by getting
them to adapt to the Starfleet's way of doing things, but in one critical
moment, Tuvok breaks the rules and bends to be a little more Maquis.
And they're well, if you can do that, then you've got our respect.
End of episode.
Rob: Story
Kevin: rest the season series is 100 percent Starfleet standards.
Rob: Again, there's a whole arc of what new ship, like we said, new
ship, paradigm created from these two, um, Uh, these two different,
um, ways of doing things from Maquis,
Kevin: told fully that story would end by Voyager getting back to the Alpha
Quadrant and being a misfit in Starfleet.
Like they, they have changed so much as a ship and a crew, they,
they don't belong in Starfleet
Rob: they're neither
Kevin: belong in Maquis.
They don't belong in Starfleet.
Are something else entirely.
Rob: That would be satisfying, but also it's a case of how that could
be corrupted within the Star Trek world of going, Well, let's learn
from these re revolutionary ways.
And so Janeway is going around lecture tours going, Well, this
was the Starfleet way, this was the Maquis way, this was the Voyager way.
Create your own way of doing it.
But watered it down to a point so it's just like a, uh, a philosophy that you
can put on a t shirt with a cat hanging onto a branch going, hang in there.
Um, but yeah, that, that would have been a brave decision of, and that's
what modern Star Trek infuriates people with, but would be a more
fertile ground of going, this ship is no longer Federation, or Maquis.
This ship is Voyager, and this is our rules.
Kevin: The crisis on this episode is that the gelpacks are all sick with
a virus, and it turns out to have originated from Neelix's cheese,
which I think, is a, uh, uh, something that is a callback in some episode of
Lower Decks, uh, and fair enough too.
It is a hilarious lump of cheese that, makes this ship sick.
Um, yeah, good times.
That, that is definitely a Season One Voyager crisis.
Rob: Definitely, and we'll never hear of them again.
Do any of those characters come back?
No.
Kevin: Nope, none at all.
Dalby, Jaron, Henley, and Chell, we miss you.
Rob: Um, so let's go back to where it all started.
An episode you have talked about many times before and we've touched
on in previous seasons of Lower Decks, but I have never seen.
This is the first time I've finally watched it and I love how it's referred
to on Wikipedia because I have on Wikipedia, Lower Decks Star Trek, not to
be confused with Star Trek Lower Decks.
Um,
Kevin: Uh, very good.
We last talked about this in episode 12 of subspace radio.
So if you want to hear some of my thoughts on that, that episode was about
characters who are not actually dead.
And I made the point that Star Trek is capable of killing off people in
a satisfying, uh, Heartfelt Way, and that happens in this episode with
Sito Jaxa, but there's a lot more to talk about in this episode, so I can't
wait to hear what you thought it, Rob.
Rob: and obviously Sito Jaxa first appeared in a previous episode of Next
Generation, uh, involving, Wesley Crusher.
Kevin: Season 5, Episode 19, The First Duty.
Rob: and Tom Paris, not Tom Paris.
Kevin: Yes!
Nick Locarno, yeah.
Rob, the, the homework never ends.
Once you watch, uh, The First Duty, there will be another episode from there
that you have to go back and watch.
Rob: But I'm all doing it, you know, the long way around, as you would expect.
Yeah, so Lower Decks is basically, um, the revolutionary idea, but
it's two narratives at once, really.
We have what the upper deckers are doing, and what the lower deckers are doing.
And so the story starts, it's a really cute way of doing it.
It starts with Riker and Troi sitting there having a drink, talking about, oh,
we've got these evaluations, oh, we've got to pick all these type of things, oh,
too tired and too exhausted to do this.
And then the camera moves to the table behind the main action, and
it's four lower deckers sitting around going, Why are they smiling about?
That's how, that's how evaluations they're dealing
You go, this is where we're going this episode.
We are focusing on those people that we've had mentioned before,
but never seen, and now see them.
And so we have, um, uh, four Lower Deckers and a bartender
like, who's like standing Guinan?
Kevin: Yeah, exactly.
We've got, we've got Lavelle, who is a little more like Riker
than either of them would like to
Rob: Is he from Canada or Alaska?
Kevin: Yeah, exactly.
Sito Jaxa, who we've talked about already.
There's Taurik, a Vulcan who annoys Geordi because he has too many good ideas.
And, uh, Ben, the bartender.
And I read, uh,
Rob: And Alyssa as
Kevin: Oh yeah, Alyssa Ogawa, who's a nurse.
We do see Ogawa, Nurse Ogawa, in a lot of Star Trek Next Generation episodes.
She's in a bunch, she's in the movies as well, so a recurring guest star, but
she, it's, she does a nice job of being that, um, that link with these people.
That, hey, someone we've seen repeatedly is friends with these people, so
they're not completely disconnected.
Um, Yeah, uh, I read some behind the scenes stuff about, uh, the
casting of that bartender, Ben.
They got through, you know, some of the auditions, and they had their favorite,
who was this guy, and they stopped and, um, went, Is it, is it inappropriate,
we've already got Whoopi Goldberg running the bar, is it inappropriate that our
second bartender with speaking lines in Ten Forward is also African American?
Um, and you know, this was the early 90s, it was, uh, it was, uh, The,
the, um, cultural awakening to these issues was not what it is today.
And yet they were still asking the question, and they were starting
to feel uncomfortable about it.
And until they, one of the producers said, you realize if you follow this
logic to its conclusion, this guy, this guy, this African American who you're
trying to do right by loses a job, right?
And they're like, Oh yeah, we should probably just cast him.
Rob: Because he was great.
Was really good.
Really great energy, charisma, confidence on screen.
Kevin: They said on the, on the casting page, he was like someone who just
caught a ride on the starship and didn't care about rank or, the protocol and
was just there to have a good time.
Rob: Well, it's a beautiful moment, obviously, when, you know, both upper
and lower deckers are playing poker.
Um, and Ben wipes the floor with the lower deckers and just effortlessly
just moves into the upper deckers.
Goes, Well, you know, they're all finished up.
I want to keep on playing.
I want to, you know, take you guys for a ride.
Kevin: Yeah, I mean, you could totally see Whoopi Goldberg in that position,
but to see someone else, um, and someone unfamiliar, like the fact
that he is there and gone makes him that much more, uh, mysterious and
tantalizing as a presence on the ship.
Rob: He doesn't even have a link on Wikipedia.
Um, so yeah, these four characters that, you know, obviously, uh, with Alyssa
appearing before and also Sito appearing before, but for the most part, this is
the most time we've spent with them.
We get, get the ins and outs of their dynamics rather quickly.
Um, and where they all stand and how they stand with the other members of the crew.
And that's the big thing here, because it's the start of it all.
It's very much a case of their relationship to the characters we know.
So, you know.
Um, Sam is always looking up to Riker, how to appeal to Riker.
Um, Sito's got her relationship with Riker, but also her relationship with a
Worf, also her relationship with Picard.
Um, Taurik, his big relationship is with Geordi.
And, um, and Alyssa, her connection with Beverly Crusher.
Kevin: I agree.
This, the point of this episode is not that that other, the
usual crew is completely absent.
It's a shift in perspective.
We see them through the eyes of the lower decks.
Rob: Exactly, exactly.
And how the characters we know interact with, it's almost a case of we are
the lower deckers, and so if we were on the ship, how would we be treated
by these characters that we've been watching for seven years and how would,
would, would they get on with us?
Would they like us?
Would we know what to say with them?
Would we order a drink, have a talk about Canada and, you know, Alaska and then
walk off without even taking your drink?
Kevin: So who's the best manager and who's the worst manager
in eyes from this episode?
Rob: Um, it's gotta, if, it's, it's gotta be Geordi for me.
Geordi, for best, I reckon.
I yeah.
Kevin: He's so, he's so impatient with Taurik, and he never says to
Taurik, um, it's not you, it's me.
I'm just annoyed I didn't know about that, sorry for my short temper.
Or, like, he does where he goes, I would be open to your suggestions
anytime, and Tarek goes, oh, do you have some time right now?
I'll back to you.
Rob: May, maybe that's the teacher in me going, that's going.
Maybe that's what I can relate with the most going, yeah, that's
how you cope in this situation.
Not everything's Dead Poet society or Mr.
Holland's Opus.
Um, but, uh, yeah, and like for me, uh, oh, no, Worf does a really
good job, like he tries to do.
Kevin: beats her up a little bit, but he makes his point.
Rob: And yeah, he realizes he's done something wrong, and then when she
goes, there was no such thing, was it?
You just made this up?
He goes, yes, I did.
For me, Riker's pretty shit.
He's very much full of himself in this episode.
He's much, he's Riker, Riker squared in this, going, oh,
Kevin: Oh, I'm celebrity.
Rob: He's trying so hard, you
Kevin: Oh, that scene at the bar in Ten Forward is quite fun though, um, because
Lavelle does make such an ass of himself.
Uh, he clearly walked over with no plan other than, I'm gonna say
Canada and he's gonna love me.
And he orders a drink even though he's holding one, he gets the
country wrong, and then he leaves before his drink arrives, and just,
Riker does a beautiful job of just going, yep, this guy's an idiot.
Rob: But like it's the, it's the, it's the whole never meet your heroes, Kevin.
Have you ever had a moment where you met someone famous or important to you
and you kind of stuffed it up and you just go, well, I'm never getting that
Kevin: Yeah.
Um, yeah, Lavelle, I, I don't, I never quite.
warmed up to that character.
I don't know if it's something the actor is doing, something in the script, um,
but I mean, he's clearly meant to be a little hopeless and not quite likable.
And the fact that he has so much of Riker, or Riker has so much of
Lavelle in him is kind of the point.
That point would not work if Lavelle had his crap together a little more.
Nevertheless, when Lavelle gets the pip at the end of the episode,
I'm not entirely happy for him.
Rob: Like, yeah, it's very much a case of he is, like the casting of that
actor, um, and the, the look of him.
He's a very attractive, very chiseled, um, cliched, attractive person.
He
Kevin: I hope he's not listening because I'm going to say something
here, which is that in my mind, he is a low budget Tom Cruise.
Rob: Ooh, okay.
Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep,
Kevin: Maybe that's not a bad thing to be as an actor, a low budget Tom Cruise,
because Cruise in the description.
Rob: I'm being very diplomatic and you just, you, you went
full Riker right there.
Um, so that got in the way of me, you know, he was sort of
like a hopeless version of that.
So he, he had the looks of the matinee idol lead guy, but to
Kevin: a lot of, uh, soap opera leading role
Rob: Yes, yes, from what I can see, uh, uh, yeah, he was on soap opera Once in a
Life, uh, he was on the sitcom Ellen, a big role, he was in, uh, Teen Witch, 1989
movie, uh, in the TV series Tour of Duty, so, definitely filling that role, and,
um, just a jobbing actor getting from, uh, uh, uh, you know, contract to contract.
Kevin: I can see the description of the page.
It's like Riker type, but with, uh, with insecurity behind the eyes.
And that is certainly what, what he was bringing to the show.
Rob: Um, yeah, yes, the character is, like, an interesting experiment in what,
if you have all the physical attributes of being, uh, a first officer, you know,
ops hero, um, but you're, you know, you, it doesn't come to you easily.
So that's an interesting, um, experiment, uh, to explore, but whether it's
actually appealing, uh, is not so much.
Um, Taurik was great because you see the extra effort that, how Vulcans can be
annoying, because they're going above and beyond, and they, you know, even though
you're not telling me all the information, I figured it out, tell you I figured
it out, because I want to impress you.
And so, yeah, I have students like that all the time.
Um, but yeah, the standout in this is, of course, uh, Shannon Fill as, uh,
Sito Jaxa, um, not only because we've talked about her before and I was just
so impressed by the fact that she had pretty much gone off the radar, had
given up acting, um, but the Lower Decks people were able to, you know, persuade
her and she came back for a flashback episode of uh Lower Decks and bless
her for that because you know it turns out she was best friends with Mariner.
And I couldn't stop but watch the episode go you know Mariner, you
know Mariner you know Mariner.
Kevin: I have not seen The First Duty in a while, but I think it, it's probably not
surprising that she has a lot more to do here than she did in that first episode.
She really is the heart and, and carries this episode emotionally.
Uh, the effect that, um, Picard's dressing down has on her is, is,
um, sold through her performance.
Rob: Yeah.
I wasn't really sold on the fact of like you know at the end he's so harsh
with her which he was very much season one Picard um and then he goes well
I brought you here because I want you know and then they go oh come on.
Kevin: A little too cute?
Rob: Little bit too cute and, come on Patrick, I know you didn't write
the script Patrick, you know that, uh, but that was a bit too cute
going, you know, I'm being harsh to you because I love you, I'm going,
Kevin: That's a, that's a very 90s trope.
That probably wouldn't stand up today.
Rob: so much, not so
Kevin: Pike on, uh, on Strange New Worlds probably couldn't get away with that.
Rob: Pike would not do that.
Our Pike would not do that.
Him and his beautiful bouffant.
Um, um, but yes, Shannon had a lot to do and she did really well with it.
Um, I know we talked about a lot leading up to it, but the actual
moment of her death is off screen.
We're so used to big epic deaths and stuff like that, you kind of forget the, um, uh,
the economy of 90s television, that you only have so much time and only so much
money to put into things, so it's, so the last shot you see of her is getting on
her handcuffs to pretend, and everything else is implied and talked about.
Kevin: I find that very effective uh, you don't even have a moment
to say goodbye to the It happens in the shuttle bay with Worf, but
you don't realize it's happening.
Rob: And because I knew it was coming, I saw, I could see that
they put more time into it.
And of course, in, um, what modern television do now, because they
kill off characters so quickly, you don't realize it until they die at
the end of the episode, you go, oh, of course, they were given so many
dialogue, so many monologues, and so many moments within this episode, but
she doesn't really get that, because
Kevin: so effective to me here is, at this time, Sito Jaxa was not what
Sito Jaxa would become in Lower Decks.
This is meant to be a story about our bridge officers and
the this death has on them.
And so, those, those emotional beats don't come from Sito Jaxa and their
reaction to her death directly.
In, in a very effective way, they come before her death.
You get to see how Picard sends someone on a likely suicide mission, and how
Worf, you know, ushers his protege onto the, uh, shuttlecraft, wishes her luck
knowing she, she may not, and possibly, likely will not come back alive.
And that's not something we get to see in Star Trek very often.
Like, the payoff of sending someone on a suicide mission, uh, and
living with that, giving that order.
Rob: But even Yeah, and the moment when they go, well how are we going
to get this, you're going to have to take someone in there, into the
Cardassian space, who are you going to, who are you going to get for that?
But also, especially with my time watching Deep Space Nine to go back in the early
stages, because Deep Space Nine would have been running a year or two at this
point, second, was it in its second year,
Kevin: in the second year, yeah.
Rob: Yeah.
So, to know all the stuff beforehand of the Bajorans and the Cardassians of what
they've explored in Deep Space Nine, to go watch this while Deep Space Nine is in
its second year, to see a Bajoran and a Cardassian together, um, and having this
talk, uh, and, uh, Um, is incredible.
Kevin: But yeah, going back to that scene with Picard that you were talking
about where he says, I asked for you on this ship, I wanted to see you
get a fair chance to redeem yourself.
To me, the other thing that's going on in that scene is Picard
also knows he is sending her to her death, more than possibly.
Um, and it starts in that very, like, that moment just outside sickbay where he
clocks her, takes a beat, and then goes inside, and he has already decided at
that point, she is his first pick for this mission, in which she will likely die.
And so when he's giving her that sort of pep talk on the way out the door,
it's the, it's that duality of, yes, I'm saying this to make you feel good.
But I want to make you, I have to make you feel good so that you
will do this fatal thing for me.
Uh, and that is so loaded, it is delicious when you look for it.
Rob: And it's weird because, you know, we've just talked about in the
last episode how easy you could just cosmetically alter someone to look like a
Kevin: Yeah, yeah, we got another, uh, plastic surgery job.
Sito down to, uh, sickbay to get her bruises on her face.
Rob: Yeah, but they could have easily just transformed anyone into Bajoran bumps.
Um, and, uh, yeah, and just the light hearted nature of, uh,
looks like I've been beaten up.
Ha ha ha ha.
Um, and you go, yeah, but the fact that Picard went, no, no, no, they need to
be a Bajoran, and they need to actually be a Bajoran, so that tension is there.
Hoo, that, yeah, that type of stuff, you go into the manipulation of power, and,
and, and what is important at that moment.
But it is that reaction, how our lead characters that we know deal
with these characters that are normally just faceless redshirts.
Nameless
Kevin: It's often said that Next Gen peaked in season six and in season
seven, they were kind of treading water a little but episodes like this, um, remind
me just how good, like if, if season six was the peak, this, this slightly
short of the peak is still in my mind, as good as Star Trek has ever been.
Rob: And especially your talk when we've talked about before, when it
comes to, to Ro and the, um, the tension that Bajoran had to go in with being
a part of Starfleet and losing their, um, you know, what defines Bajoran
culture is its religion, really.
And so not being able to wear their earpieces and to have, uh, Sito Jaxa not
have the Bajoran earpieces because they're in Starfleet and they're not allowed.
Kevin: even mentioned.
Rob: Not even mention, it's just like, for a moment, I was, uh, for a
second I went, is she actually Bajor?
And then, yeah, um,
Kevin: reaction when she steps in the observation lounge and sees the Cardassian
across the table, you really are, she sold that she's a Bajoran, like that weight
of history was there in the performance, even though that actor probably, you
know, she was selling something that had not been a part of creating.
Rob: And isn't that, isn't that what the joy of being an actor is about.
And so, my hat's off, it was an honor to get, cause, to actually finally watch this
episode, and we've talked so much about Shannon Fill before, you beforehand, and
I've heard her obviously coming back.
But to actually watch this performance, so I'll look forward to going back and
watching, uh, her first appearance.
First Duty?
Kevin: Yeah, that's right.
Rob: Um, yeah, it was an honor to watch her here.
She really knocked it out of the park.
And yeah, that shame of she didn't get to have her big final performance.
It was off screen and that's the tragedy of her character's loss.
Um, and the power of that episode and it's a shame it was such an episodical series
because the power of what could have been explored that season if those characters
came back and to see that connection at the end of the episode built between
Worf, the beginning of that relationship between Worf and the other Lower
Kevin: Mmm, yeah.
Rob: that would have been amazing to explore which you would
do in modern shows nowadays.
But a part of me watching it going, and that's it.
And when we get to the end of the episode, I went, that's all we'll have.
And it's a shame.
It's a moment of going, because in 90s it's going, let's leave them
with that tantalizing that they can
Kevin: can, they can tell that story for themselves in their head, but
Rob: Or fanfiction.
But in nowadays, they go, no, we will explore that.
We'll go and we'll see Lavelle come back and see whether we actually like him.
You know, Alyssa finding out that her, you know, fiancé is dating other women.
Kevin: Uh, shout out, uh, we should take a moment to, uh, um, recognize
Patti Yasutake who played Nurse Ogawa.
She died just last year of a rare form of cancer and uh, gone soon.
Rob: She did.
I knew there was a connection.
I remember seeing that pop up last year and there was a lot of, um,
tributes to her coming out from not only people within, uh, the Star
Trek world but the cast as well, um, and I've made that connection now.
Yes.
Kevin: This is probably the closest we got to that character in all her
time, but she was, she was the constant present in, presence in sickbay with Dr.
Crusher.
She was like Dr.
Crusher's right hand, um, officer in sickbay, both here in the
series and in the movies beyond.
And,
Rob: She's kind of like the, um, uh, Nurse Kelly from, uh, M.
A.
S.
H.
Um, uh, Nurse Kelly was, uh, um, Hawaiian actress and, uh, she was
pretty much always in the background for most of the run of of M.
A.
S.
H.
became this just reoccurring character who never had much stories
Kevin: Lines here or there, the story was not about them except in
this uh, but their presence really sold the reality of the world.
Rob: Yeah, so yeah, it was, it was a, I'm, I'm glad we, uh, decided
to do this and, and, and it's a shame I haven't watched it before.
It was a great to watch and, um, yeah, beautiful episode.
Kevin: Yeah.
Well, there's just two left in Lower Decks, and, uh, they're a bit of a,
uh, kind of a two parter to the finish.
Not exactly, but kind of, uh, of a piece.
Um, so I look forward to chatting about them in the next couple
of episodes of Subspace Radio.
And then we'll be right on time for our big movie event, Section 31.
Rob: Section 31, which I have no excitement or interest in, but
Kevin: No, I'm, am I
Rob: glad it's a
Kevin: not my hopes up that my expectations are so low it can
only be a pleasant surprise.