Silvan (00:00)
Hi everyone. Welcome to Long Game, a heated rivalry podcast. My name is Sylvan and I'm joined with Declan

And so we have Lizzie from the Shelf Aweb podcast back again. Hi, Lizzie.

lizzy (00:11)
Hello, so happy to be here.

Silvan (00:13)
We're so happy to have you back. Now, this is part two of the masculinity in sport episode that we did last week. So if you haven't listened to that, go back, listen to it, but come back and listen to part two because Lizzie is going to give us loads more insight into the world that she works in. So in part one, we talked mainly about sort of how sport shapes masculinity and, you know, things like what gets rewarded, what gets shut down and how athletes learn to suppress sort of

emotions in order to perform. And for me, what really stood out was this idea that these men don't really have a role model for how to feel things, only mainly just how to perform. And so in part two, what we're going to do is we're going to explore this deep and we're to explore about what actually this does to them.

lizzy (00:55)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (01:03)
And one thing that's always fascinated me specifically with Ilya and Shane is that they can almost be physically very close, like really, really close as we've seen, but emotionally distant. And there's this huge distance, especially sort of earlier on.

lizzy (01:15)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (01:19)
So my question is, why does it feel easier for them to be physically with each other than to actually say how they feel?

lizzy (01:28)
I think the easy way to explain that is that it's just being physical is so much more familiar to them. ⁓ I think athletes from a very young age, particularly male athletes, are not only encouraged to be physical, but they feed into growing that nature to be physical and be more aggressive. ⁓

with each other and just through sports in general. And I think...

that can be, I don't wanna say damaging, because it's good to fuel somebody's, if a kid likes something, if a kid really enjoys something, you wanna fuel that passion. But I run into a lot of parents as a coach that have the very, they very much have the boys will be boys mentality, which I feel like can be very detrimental to them growing up.

and to just how they view themselves in the world and how they should interact with other people. And so for Shane and Ilya, think ⁓ sports obviously have been a very big part of their life and they participate in a very physically ⁓ demanding sport and one that is a contact sport, which I think has a lot to do with it as well. And so that's just they're used to expressing their emotions and feelings through their body and their body's capabilities.

And so I think that that is what comes most naturally to them. And I don't think that's like inherently a bad thing whatsoever, but I think in the same way that they've utilized sports to develop how they use their bodies to interact with the world, you also need a counterpart, which is we need somebody to be developing their emotional awareness and how to process those ⁓ so that they don't...

just know how to process their emotions through what they're doing with their bodies. So I feel like the last time we talked, it came off as I was like, I know I can come off very ⁓ harsh on like the sports world. I love sports. I've grown up in them. I have such appreciation for them. I think that they can provide so much, so many things that people need growing up that you can get from other places, but sometimes they come in the form of a sport. ⁓

And so don't want it to come off like I'm like a sports hater. I'm a coach. I love sports. But I just think that it's a very slippery slope that like if we're putting all this time and effort into developing, developing these athletes in ⁓ very specific areas for their sports, we can't be neglecting their minds, their mental health as well. And so I think that's what often gets that's what often happens with professional athletes is their body and their physical capacity is the commodity and their minds are kind of thought of.

what they're not thought of, essentially. And there's been a lot of research that like, and I think it's very apparent in specific sports that, like the mind body connection is very important. And if your mind is not right, you're not performing well. ⁓ And so I think that that's just, I think that we have to work on developing emotional awareness as well as like physical awareness.

Declan (04:46)
Yeah, you can sort of see as well, like you were saying, there's like a mental aspect to doing like competitive sport as well. That is so important. And it comes up a lot in sort of hockey in the real world, but a lot in sort of hockey books as well, where there's a big emphasis on this idea of like, we're having a bad run, we're getting into our heads, like, my God, we the superstitious thing has happened to me. And now all of sudden everything's going wrong.

You can sort of see it with Scott, like he sees this movie or Kippus' good luck charm, which is purely just him mentally psyching himself up in a sense. So there's definitely an interconnection there between the physical and the mental, but in terms of actual emotional intelligence, it seems to get a little lost in the sauce and the only emotions that are really sort of nurtured in a sense

are that sort of competitive streak, the real intense drive and the push to be physical. And then those other aspects that are so important to develop ⁓ to become fully rounded people, they're sort of just left to the side for hopefully someone else in their life to step in and help with. And unfortunately, a lot of guys, whenever they go into these sort of very competitive ended sports, ⁓

lizzy (06:03)
and

Declan (06:12)
They'll find that, you know, there isn't really room or breathing space to sort of take away from the sport you're doing. Like the commitment to the sport sort of overrides everything. Whether that be, you know, developing relationships or personal development ⁓ in ways that are really important, especially if you're young and that's how you're going to get into a competitive sport. You're going to do it from

lizzy (06:27)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (06:41)
a very young age up until the point where you actually enter it, usually in your teens. So yeah, there seems to be like a mechanism here of development that's lost that they're kind of going to need to start including because some of these guys go into the world with a false sense of themselves and their importance and what they can and can't do. And I think that's where you get so many of these scandals.

lizzy (06:54)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (07:11)
and really irrational, stupid events happening that end up splashed on newspapers and tabloids where they behave in a really bizarre way. And I think it's just because of that lack of reality sort of being shown to them. Now I'm talking about like people at a very high level, but I think you can see it as well. People that had a big deal made out of them whenever they were playing sports in school or in college or wherever. And then they go out into reality and it's just not.

lizzy (07:19)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Declan (07:39)
It's not the same, their behavior isn't as appropriate and they're not going to get off with as much. They're not as important. Does that make sense?

Silvan (07:40)
you

lizzy (07:46)
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's important to remember that all the professional athletes, the big names, they were like 12 year old. They were all 12 year olds at one point, and they were all learning this behavior from from someone. I think the whole meant I don't want to like lump mental health counseling for athletes into like, like emotional intelligence counseling.

But I think athletics as a whole have started and like as I'm going through my masters, we're being taught about how to mentally prepare our athletes and how to teach them to walk through emotions and process them in an appropriate way and find a solution to fix whatever they're feeling. And I think that that mentality and that coaching, I know a lot of ⁓

like really big teams have an entire team of mental performance coaches and counselors, which is great. And I think we're like moving in the right direction. I think at the time when these books came out, I think in like the early 2000s, this was like not really on the radar at all very much. ⁓ That was like peak, like athletes are like their bodies and not their minds mentality. I think now we're very much getting into, like I said, we're going in the right direction. But I think a lot of that is in part to

specific athletes like being vulnerable similar to what Scott does and saying I am this athlete and this is what I'm capable of but I also need help. Like I need help with this if I'm going to be able to continue to do this. And we talked about Kevin Love last time. He's great. Simone Biles is also a great representation of it as well because she took off time for mental health and

And I think she caught some backlash initially, but I think the majority of it was like so supportive. And it's like, if she, like you would think that she's like, she's one of the best athletes that has like ever lived on this, on this planet. If she needs help, don't we think that other people who don't have, and this is a convoluted way of saying it, but like Simone has all the resources in the world. NBA athletes have all the resources in the world. They have all the coaches and all the counselors and

all the people around them, have access to the money to fund all of this stuff that they need. ⁓ High school and grade school kids do not have that, especially if you're like, I grew up in a small town and we had one athletic trainer and one coach and like, we did not have any support staff and I didn't experience support staff until I got to college. ⁓ And so like younger athletes, a lot of times do not have access to that. And so,

I hope we're moving towards a world where they do have access to that, but I also hope we're moving towards a world where there are enough people that are aware of its importance that coaches and trainers can take on some of that burden as well and help stigmatize vulnerability and emotion in sport and help destigmatize it. but yeah.

Declan (10:54)
Mm.

Silvan (10:56)
Yeah. And as you were saying that I was wondering whose responsibility is that is the responsibility on having, you know, a sports psychologist, for example, on, you know, a faculty, or is it the responsibility of coaches to then take on further training in psychology and psychological fields? Like, where does that lie?

lizzy (11:00)
Mm-hmm.

I think it depends on the staff that you have. ⁓ My experience with this was my college coach, he was the head coach of our track and field team, but he was also the throws coach. He was also our individual coach. And he specifically went out and got his masters in strength and conditioning so that he could coach us in the weight room. so people, coaches do that. It's like that's, and that's something that I'm probably going to end up doing as well.

is I'm going to end up getting certified in mental performance coaching or something like that. And I think if you have the existing coaches that are open to do that and want to do that, you should absolutely give them the opportunity to do that and help beat that support staff. But if they don't want to do that, you need to have some sort of pathway set up for athletes to be able to get counseling. And so I know for like a lot of smaller schools, it's not feasible to have somebody on staff full time.

but even just like a referral program or just like, even just like a sheet of like, this is where you can go and this is who you can call. And like, we will help you make these appointments and like, we'll go with you if you don't wanna go by yourself. And I think it's done on a very case by case basis. I think every athlete's needs are gonna be totally different. ⁓ I think for like more significant cases, you absolutely need to be going to like,

Declan (12:26)
Thank

lizzy (12:46)
a sports psychologist that has gone to schooling for a long time and has been trained to do this. But I think for like triaging stuff, like little stuff here and there, I think as many people as you can get on staff that have like the basic knowledge for like, this is how we should be helping them develop. I think that's key. And then if something goes awry after that, then that's when we bring in the...

like additional faculty and staff. But I think it just kind of depends on who the, what staff you have and like what they are interested in doing. And if they have a passion for that. Yeah.

Declan (13:31)
Hmm.

Silvan (13:33)
And so thinking of, you know, the Shanes, the Ilias, the Scots, and all the resources they have, how much of a difference do you think it would make to them to have that psychological support? Because the show doesn't, I mean, we only got six episodes and the book, from what I've read so far, doesn't really cover the psychological aspects of the sport. How much of that would have been a factor in real life, for example?

lizzy (13:37)
Mm-hmm.

Like how much do think it would have helped if they had had access to that or if they had like actively gone?

Silvan (14:07)
Yeah, I suppose both in a way. Like, would they have had access to it? And how much would it have helped their performance if they did?

lizzy (14:17)
So.

I think if you're looking at the time period, and I don't know, I was younger then and I was not very familiar with what was going on, but I would think that players in the NHL, which is like our actual equivalent to it, they absolutely would have had access to it. Would it have been like frontline treatment? Would people have been encouraging them to go as much? I don't know. I probably don't, I don't think so.

But if they had had the thought themselves, I feel like I need to go to some sort of counseling or therapy. I'm struggling mentally. They absolutely would have had not only the funds, but the support system to get them there. But I think what people don't real, and something you don't realize, but it's just going to therapy and getting things out of it. I feel like it's twofold. It's going, but it's also like being present there and

and wanting to get better and accepting that that's what you need to be doing, which I think for a lot of, think Scott, Illya, Shane, I think all of them would have issues. They go to therapy because somebody's like, you need to go to therapy. And I think all of them have the gut reaction of, I'm fine the way I am. I don't need to, like, I've got what works for me. I don't, I'm not sick. Like, I don't need help.

And so I think they struggle with that as well. And so that I think draws into it's not enough to just have the people there. It's not enough to just have the professionals there to talk with them about these things, but it's setting up an environment in which those athletes feel like it's okay to assess themselves internally, much in the same way they assess themselves before every practice, before every game, as they're warming up.

they're doing their warmups, they're feeling what their body, like they're closing their eyes, they're feeling what their body's feeling, they're feeling for like tweaks and small pains and stuff like that. It's setting up an environment to let athletes do that mentally and like take a moment and be quiet and say, is there something that I'm worried about? Is there something that's adding stress to what I'm doing right now?

Is there an easy, and a lot of this stuff can be if you just give them like the good habits to begin with, it doesn't ever escalate beyond that. Like if you just teach them how to like, okay, I'm panicking about this, but like what's the end goal? And like, what's the easiest way to get through that? Like let's not panic and freak out. Let's like myth, like logically think through what's the next best step. ⁓

And so I think that that's half the battle is like getting the athletes to be able to realize themselves that they need help. And like, that's not anything new. Like everybody's, that's the same thing with like addiction is like the first step to treatment is making the person realize that they need help and they have an issue. And so I think that that's, I think they would have absolutely had access to it, whether or not they would have taken advantage of it. It's hard. It's hard, especially in that. And I think you see for Ilya, like,

Silvan (17:30)
Yes.

lizzy (17:35)
Ilya takes a step with Shane because he sees Scott do it. Again, like you see the importance of role models and how once one person does it, it becomes easier to do it. And so I think if they have somebody at that time that does it, if they have a teammate that's like, yeah, if Hayden goes up to Shane and is like, Jackie and I have been going to like couples therapy and it's been really helping. Shane's like, ⁓ that's another opportunity for me to up my game. And he goes, right? It's just like they're never going to be the first people to do it.

Declan (17:45)
Thank

lizzy (18:05)
But they would if it was like a little less scary for them.

Silvan (18:09)
I would love to see Shane and Ilya in couples therapy with Olga. I don't know if you've ever seen the TV show. I think it would be peak TV.

Declan (18:13)
Yeah, that would be amazing.

lizzy (18:21)
⁓ it'll

be so good.

Silvan (18:22)
Love it. actually Declan, what you were talking about earlier as well was you were talking about sort of Scott and you know, when he's with Kip, he's, you know, he's on this, he's happy and he's winning these games and things like that. And it made me think like, do these athletes one perform better if they're happy or if they're angry? Because we see in the game changer book, because I finished it finally, cause we have a book club now, we see in the game changer book.

Declan (18:43)
Hmm

Silvan (18:52)
that when Kip and Scott are, and I'm gonna use inverted commas if you can't see me, broken up, because Lord, there's been like a whole discourse about this on our socials, which I'm loving. But when you see that they've broken up, Scott is preoccupied with this, what's going on, and he doesn't play as well. you know, so, I don't know, what are your thoughts, Declan? Because you've read all the books.

lizzy (19:12)
Hmm.

Declan (19:18)
Well, I don't think anger is sustainable emotion. I think anger costs too much to keep going. I don't know if you've ever had that experience where you have been so angry and you're in an argument with someone and you've had the argument and afterwards you just feel run out. You feel like just like a wet rag on the floor. I don't imagine in like for maybe a couple of games.

Anger will probably carry a player through to a certain point, but then the burnout will happen straight away. Like there is an emotional burnout there. And I like the idea that they are playing better because they're working on their own personal lives and they're working on their own happiness. And that it's a result of them not having to worry about any other aspect of their life because it feels complete. And that allows them to focus solely on hockey. So I do like that idea. I like the element of it.

lizzy (20:09)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (20:16)
And I think it's kind of what happens with Scott. I think that's kind of how Scott's story goes. And the minute that he stops performing well, I don't think it's because Kip's a good luck charm. I think it's because Kip makes him happy. And a happy Scott is someone who plays better because before he meets Kip, he's not happy. He's kind of miserable in terms of how he feels he's playing and how he feels.

lizzy (20:22)
Hmm.

Mm.

Declan (20:43)
being spoken about in the media and his general sort of social life. He wants more and whenever he finally has it, all of sudden he can play to the best of his ability. it's a nice sort of ⁓ for how the relationship between Scott and Kip impacts his playing. And yeah, it's really, it's satisfying as well. It makes you feel that, you know, love fixes everything. It cures all. It's amazing.

lizzy (21:04)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (21:13)
Maybe just some good dick helps too.

Declan (21:16)
Could just be that as well. Yeah, you're not wrong, Sylvan.

lizzy (21:21)
There's, I think there's a little bit of like a physiological connection here. So there's, it's not a concept, it's a thing that happens. So like, I tell my athletes a lot when they're really struggling with something and I feel like they're focusing really hard and trying to do everything correctly, they end up, it's worse. They somehow fuck it up more. And so I tell them a lot, I'm like, stop trying so hard. Stop trying so hard because...

once you've done something over and over and over again, you develop the muscle memory for it. And ⁓ on a competition stage, you ideally want to be just operating off of instinct and letting your muscle memory take over. And that is when you play to the best of your capabilities, when you don't have to cognitively think about what you're doing, your body knows what to do. And so whenever you are stressed, angry, upset about something, frustrated by something,

you sit and try and pick it apart to fix it. And a lot of times makes it worse. And so as you're picking it apart, you actually take your brain out of the muscle memory and you revert yourself back to like a beginner's learning capacity for like the physicality. So there's very much ⁓ a connection between what is going on up here and how they're playing. So if Scott is feeling good about his relationship with Kip,

and he just feels more upbeat in general. He's less likely to get frustrated if something doesn't go well. He's more likely to let small mistakes roll off his back and not focus on them. And he's also more likely to just operate off of, he's more confident in himself. So he feels confident in his abilities and he can operate off of instinct instead of, we've lost the last three games. People are talking shitty about me news, on social media and...

I have to do really well to combat this. And like that mentality, it spirals you and then you play worse and worse and worse because you're thinking so hard about it. When in reality, you genuinely just need to let it go. So there's like, there's a very real connection between what thoughts you're having and what your body is physically even capable of.

⁓ So I think that's and that's where like choking comes from too is like athletes get so nervous and they're like going through each piece of the motion that they're trying to complete in individual steps when at this point they've done it so many times they know it like their body knows it as one motion. It's one big thing and when you break it up like that your body's like, okay, I don't know how to do this anymore.

So, and then you end up doing something that's like totally crazy. So like you see like an NBA player completely air ball free throw and you're like, how did that happen? They've must've, they practice free throws all the time. Like how does that happen? It's because of that. Your body does kooky things when you think about things too hard.

Declan (24:19)
Thank you.

Silvan (24:22)
So is that ⁓ a distraction technique in a way or is that something completely different?

lizzy (24:29)
What do mean?

Silvan (24:30)
So like, for example, when I'm working with a client who has anxiety or panic attacks, for example, and within a cognitive behavioral sort of framework, when they're sort of triggered by something and they're getting panicked and that's escalating, we'll use like a distraction technique to help sort of take them out of that head space. So sometimes it could be like snapping a rubber band on your wrist or counting backwards from 103 kind of thing.

lizzy (24:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Silvan (24:59)
So is

what you're talking about, is that similar to a distraction technique or would it be very different to that?

lizzy (25:05)
It's very similar. It's really just like getting it's it's pretty much the exact same thing. It's just getting your mind because you're spiraling on you're frustrated about one thing specifically. It's just trying to get your mind off of it. And so typically for me, I completely change up what I'm asking them to do. I ask them to think about something totally different. I'll have them take a lot of times. It depends on the athlete. Sometimes like taking a break helps.

But sometimes athletes will just go sit and stew on what they've done and it makes it worse. So again, you just have to know your athletes and like know what is gonna most benefit them in that situation. But yeah, what works to get them out of that head space is also totally different depending on the person. And it is very much a trial and error to figure out what that is. And sometimes athletes come in and they have an idea or they've like kind of subconsciously

known what gets them out of that headspace. Like a couple of them, they love to laugh and they're really funny. They have a good sense of humor. And so like they default to joking when they get frustrated, which I feel like is a very healthy response. And I encourage it whenever I can because I would much rather have them laugh off. And not that they're not taking it seriously. They are. They're just not taking themselves too seriously, which I think is important.

I would rather have them laugh off or make a joke about a mistake that they made than get pissed about it and not be able to practice because of it. So I think everybody's a little different. I do have one or two that like they get really, really frustrated and it's very hard to like pull them out of that. A lot of times what ends up happening is if they're throwing hammer, I'm just like, okay, we'll go throw a jab. Like we're gonna completely take you away from what you're doing right now.

because you're not in the head space and that's okay. Right? Like we're not trying to like, Rome wasn't built in a day. We're not trying to master this today. You made some good progress. Even if we learned what we shouldn't be focusing on or what you shouldn't do, that's still progress towards what we should do. So I think it's just a method of learning what makes the athletes take. And I think that that is like the key to human interaction in general is like figuring out what makes the person you're communicating with.

Declan (27:24)
Mm-hmm.

lizzy (27:27)
tick and trying to understand them on an emotional and internal level as opposed to just taking them at face value versus what they're physically putting off.

Silvan (27:42)
Yeah, Dacnan, what do you think Shane's response to that would be or even Ilya's? Like, what do you think would snap them out of they're in their head too much?

Declan (27:54)
Shane.

I is the more difficult one. I think he's the one who spends the most time in his head. ⁓ Ilya, don't think you would need much to be honest. Ilya sort of, he sort of snaps himself out of it in a lot of ways. I'm not really sure what sort of specific thing that he does that allows him to do it, but he whenever put under pressure,

terms of like playing the game like even after losing his father and the disruption of his family and everything that's going on with Ilya like he goes out and he kicks ass immediately he uses it almost as like motivation to keep going it's like he has a point to prove and he obviously does as well he has his father to his family to himself and I think that seems to override the instinct to overthink at all I think Ilya is more

driven to action and he spends less time strategically thinking and just goes by instinct. I think that's why he's such a good player because he trusts his body, he trusts his training, he trusts that he can go out there and put his all into it and that it's going to go well for him because he has this confidence that I am the fucking best at this and no one can tell me otherwise and I don't know if he just sort of manifests it but it seems to work. I get the idea that Ilya is good at a lot of things.

lizzy (29:06)
Yeah.

Declan (29:21)
I think he's the kind of person that would be very good at things the immediate moment he picks it up just because he has such trust and confidence in himself. Whereas Shane is like the sort of master over decades of experience. Like he's gone over these things. He's ran through his head a million times. He's done every scenario. He has bought his way through the entire match and played it back in his head 10 times.

lizzy (29:45)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (29:52)
He seems to take a comfort from that. He doesn't seem to find it quite debilitating. ⁓ When do we see Shane sort of play badly? ⁓ We don't really. Shane doesn't really play badly. He, I think this is because people are just so unique to themselves. Sometimes that level of overthinking and preparation works for you depending on your personality type.

⁓ If you feel that you know what's going to happen, you have a good idea of what you're walking into, you've pre-planned it in your head, you pre-planned the conversations, the way that the puck's going to drop, the way that you're going to escape, the plans for how you're all going to approach it as the team, and you're able to execute that. There's a comfort in that, and you can have confidence in the fact that you planned well so that you feel that things are going to go the way that you choose to let them go to.

because you've you've thought about it. You've looked at it from every angle. Whereas if you swapped the two of these guys to use their own approaches. So if you had Shane, I'm throwing you in this match and all this stuff has happened to you. Good luck out there. You're going to you're going to do great kid. He would probably choke because he's not had the mental preparation. He's out of his routine. Nothing is as it's supposed to go. There's no flow. It's not right for him. And he

would do badly. Whereas if you had Ilya then take on Shane's approach where he has studied and over thought every aspect of the game, there is miles and miles and miles of preparation going on in his head and then you try to get him to go out and do this plan exactly as he's thought it out, he would probably choke. So I think everyone's approach is unique to them as individuals and I think Rachel Reitz put that across really well and whenever she was characterizing the two of them that

lizzy (31:44)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (31:45)
They are both at the top of the game and yet they have both have such a different approach to it. And yet they're both basically as talented as one another, even though they're, couldn't be more different in that sense. And I think that also lends to sort of the relationship as well. That sort of opposites attract thing. ⁓ but yeah, I would like to see that play out and it probably does in real life, we real people who will all have their own individual approaches that would work for them specifically, but for nobody else.

lizzy (31:51)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I feel like I'm listening to myself talk to somebody about this when you're talking because I say that all the time that I have like two types of athletes. I have the ones that when I ask them to do something new, they don't think about it. They just do it, which is that's Ilya. And then I have other athletes who want me to walk through it step by step and explain why and how it's happening and the mechanics of it. And they're totally different.

And they're both insanely successful in their own ways. but they, you're absolutely right. They would, they would be incapacitated if they had to try and adopt each other's routines. But I also think that it's important that they're on, that those types of athletes are on the same team together and can learn from each other. So I think as far as what would, what would pull Shane out of is we see this a lot is Ilya makes jokes.

Like, Ilya's laughing and it kind of pulls Shane out of his head. And so I think in a lot of ways like that, having somebody that's laughing and you see this in Shane's teammates as well. Like, Shane's teammates are laughing with him and joking with him. Hayden is the first one to like lean over to him and be like, Captain Hollander, like, what are you, like, he's like mimicking, like holding a mic. Like, they're joking with him because they know him as a person. And so I think in that way, like, he's missing a little bit of the...

Silvan (33:11)
you

lizzy (33:40)
like exhale, and so his teammates are bringing that to him. On the flip side, Ilya is just a terror and just operates on instinct and vibes only. And I think he could absolutely benefit from a little bit more structure and a little bit more organization and a little bit more preparedness, but just like a little bit. In terms of like, we're gonna practice a specific way, we're gonna practice how we wanna play.

We're going to practice specific things we want you to be able to naturally do. But then when it's time to be on the ice, you just go. And so I think it's important to have, and like those are like the two big groups of athletes that I see the most frequently are the ones that I say, that I say jump and they say, there's a group that says, how high do you want me to bend my legs? Do you want me to use my arms like that?

Are you gonna measure it? What are you gonna measure it for? And then there's the group that just jumps. And they're both like, those are two very important parts of being a successful athlete. And you're stronger in one area than the other, but you need ideally both of them, but not in equal amounts to like be genuinely successful. The most successful you can be is what I kinda wanna say.

Silvan (35:00)
And in a way, these are coping strategies, right? And so where is that line where this coping strategy, whichever one that it might be, is adaptive versus damaging to your game?

lizzy (35:03)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (35:16)
Hmm.

lizzy (35:17)
I Ilya's... So Ilya leans more towards... I think the emotions that Ilya immediately gravitates towards are anger most of the time. Anger, frustratedness, like he feels like he needs to prove himself. And I think that that very easily can become... I don't know. I don't even know what I... How I want to say that. ⁓ I think, Declan, when you said...

that well isn't very deep when you have like when you're operating off of anger only. I think that that I think when you run out of it, I don't know if you know what you're going to do. Like I feel like you lose a bit of that passion, that spark. And I think when you're in a when you're in such a heightened state of emotion, when you're being led by anger and frustration, I think you are more spontaneous, but also more

irrational just inherently. And so I think you make decisions like that that you would not make if you were clear headed. And sometimes in sports, that is a good thing. Sometimes spontaneity, not letting the other team know what you're going to do next is great. I think move because it also allows you to move more quickly. But I also think if you're on a team with other players and there are other players on the ice, you have to on some level be aware of where they're at and like

be thinking this is where they are now, this is where they're gonna be, this is where I need to be. And I think when you get to a certain point of ⁓ like emotional, heightened emotions when you're playing like that, I think you kind of lose track of that. And I think we see that a couple of times where we hear about it, where the announcers say that Ilya has done everything. Like he's gotten to a point where he doesn't trust his teammates to help him through this.

he takes it upon himself to do everything. So I think that is the detriment of how he plays, is he takes it all upon himself. ⁓ I have a hard time speaking on Shane's because I am more like Shane as an athlete.

Silvan (37:25)
Interesting. That's really

interesting. So there's something that you can speak to for Shane in a way. And I was just thinking about sort of like hockey in general, ice hockey in general. There's a lot of aggression in the sport. And as a spectator, there's a thrill in watching that. And it almost feels like that kind of behavior. know like on socials, they call it the boy aquarium. But you know, people get off and enjoy.

lizzy (37:36)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Silvan (37:51)
these players

lizzy (37:51)
Yeah.

Silvan (37:52)
literally hitting each other. So it feels very Roman Empire gladiator-esque, know, just a bit more gayer and on ice. ⁓ Well, gladiator was pretty gay anyway. But regardless, you know, this aggression, overt aggression is rewarded because spectators like to enjoy watching it. So how does that then sort of feed into

what the players are being expected because it feels like a performance.

lizzy (38:23)
Yeah, I think you go from being a young athlete who's being told by their coaches and their close friends and close families to feed into your aggressive nature and the physicality. And then you get into a high school setting and you experience the same thing. And then you get into a professional setting where you have ⁓ thousands of spectators that are banging on the glass, encouraging you to get into a fight with somebody. And you know that that is what sells tickets, that what

That's what drives engagement. Like that's what's expected of you. So I had always kind of wondered, like I kind of want to add, I've never spoken to like a professional hockey player. I don't think. No, I haven't. And I want to ask them like, how much of the beef that you guys have on ice and off ice is genuine and how much of it are you like fanning the flames so that somebody gets into a fight and like it's a more enjoyable experience for the fans? Like.

much of that is your natural capacity for being competitive and being ready for a fight and how much of it is put on, essentially like put on for show. I have no idea. I hope to god all those men are not that brimming with anger all the time. That would terrify me. That would terrify

Declan (39:38)
That would be scary.

And Rachel Reed actually dedicates one of the G-Game Changers books to this idea of the sort of fighting that happens in hockey. Like the appropriateness of it. Do the players actually like it? Like how do they feel in general about, you know, sort of the spectators violence that goes on? ⁓

Because obviously hockey isn't the only sport where people fight. Like you have MMA, you have boxing, like all those have become very, very popular and they're huge and people turn out in their tens of thousands to see sort of matches like this. But I suppose it could just go down to a sort of deeper instinct of ours to want to enjoy violence. I mean, look at TV shows, books.

films like even like you said like going back to the Roman Coliseum like there is something within people that enjoys violence to a certain extent enjoys watching it maybe not so much inflecting it and having it inflected upon them but the don't know maybe the thrill of watching someone fight to see who comes out on top of the competition of it all suppose that's what sports all about it's about wanting to see who wins whenever you put two people together so

lizzy (40:47)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (41:04)
With hockey in particular, I thought it was odd when I first watched ice hockey, idea that they're fighting. because I got, obviously in the UK, like we grew up, we watched football and if you fight on a football pitch, you basically cannot at all play for probably the rest of the season. If you're getting into a fight, like you are basically a useless player at that point. And they have just paid millions and millions of pounds to have you sit on a bench.

Like it just, it just hasn't done. ⁓ and rugby as well, like rugby is a much more physical sport. It's a proper contact sport. Like it's American football will bite the padding. It's really, really intense and really aggressive. And yet I've never really seen players fight on the pitch. Like there's like a, there's like a camaraderie to it. There's like a friendliness. There's it's such a different way of approaching it.

lizzy (41:59)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (42:02)
So I don't know what it is about hockey specifically, and I don't know where the tradition of fighting came from, but yeah, it has me curious anyway.

lizzy (42:09)
Yeah.

I don't know... God, I hate to say that I feel like American culture is... that's why that exists. I... You know... Okay, so it's cathartic. That's why people like fighting and being aggressive because it feels like release. But you know from watching other contact sports that it can be done without physically fighting each other.

right? And there's something very cathartic about doing anything that's very like taxing on your body. Like weightlifting is very cathartic for me. And so like, we can do it, we just are choosing not to. We're choosing to lean into, we like watching men genuinely just punch each other in the face. And I think that in and of itself,

is a huge contributor to how athletes are brought up in the US.

Declan (43:14)
Thank

lizzy (43:17)
I don't know if anything, like it's so hard to change the mentality of sports in the US because of how successful we are. Because of how successful we are at the Olympics, because of how successful we are in like a national state, like ⁓ on a world stage. we're not gonna, they're not gonna change, like all these coaches, they're not gonna change it because like it's led to athletes who are the best in the world.

And so it's just, it's going to be really hard to change that mentality of, and I'm trying to think of like a good example, but...

I don't know.

Silvan (44:00)
And in a way, doing things the way they've been done has led to some success, right? Or a lot of success in most cases. And I was thinking on a systemic level, yes, you can see that, but also there's lots of internal processes that are facilitating that that actually are quite damaging in a way.

lizzy (44:06)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Silvan (44:20)
And I

was thinking back to Scott's ⁓ speech, I think it's the top of episode six. And he talks, he alludes to the homophobia in hockey or in the sport that he plays, right? And there is this sort of fear that he talks about, about being called the names in the locker room and things like that, which then facilitates him to not be open or as open as he wanted to be. And I was just thinking like,

lizzy (44:34)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

you

Silvan (44:50)
what does that do to a person in terms of being emotionally open in a sport? Or does that make them appear soft or vulnerable? Or is that quite damaging in a sporting environment?

lizzy (45:07)
just like being an athlete who have their feelings considered. Yeah, ⁓ think it's gonna be different on every team. I think it's gonna be different depending on what the coach promotes. There are a lot of coaches who don't like talk of emotion and any vulnerability. And I think especially when you're looking at team sports, like the whole you're only as strong as the weakest link comes into. ⁓

Silvan (45:10)
Yeah.

lizzy (45:35)
is impactful there. you know, there's the whole, you know, emotional vulnerability is weakness. And so like, you can't show any of that. And so I again, I think it really depends on what the coaches promoting, I think individual sports, I think that there is more of an emphasis on

not an emphasis, but I think it's more accepting to be emotionally vulnerable because in being vulnerable and being weak, you're only letting down yourself at that point, right? So like you're as strong as you want to be, whereas in a team environment like hockey, you are as strong, like the team is as strong as you are. So if you're being weak, the team is therefore weak. ⁓ And so I think that that is, I think that that is, I think being in a team environment is

so incredibly. think learning how to work well on a team is such an important life skill in general. And again, you can learn how to work in a team from so many different areas. Athletics is how I learned how to do it. there's in all the good that you learn in working together as a team, you also learn that the best way to work together as a team is to have one set of values. It's to all feel and think the same thing at the same time. Like that is like the peak

of being a team is to trust your teammates and understand that they are thinking what you're thinking. And so if you have a coach or a captain who has damaging feelings towards being vulnerable and properly processing your emotions, then that as a result, like the whole team has to feel like that and the whole team has to buy in that.

buy into that. And if you don't buy into it, you're not a team player and like you're ostracized for it. ⁓ And like I've seen that happen before. Like as I was growing up, like even in like grade school, like we had a pretty good girls basketball team. We went to like state competitions and which is not normal for like a small, small school that we were. And so I think a lot of girls who are on my team were there just to, just to play the sport, not necessarily to like

Wednesday or like be the best, but just to be active and to spend time with their friends and learn how to work together in a team. But there were very obviously some who didn't take it as seriously or who were bringing non-sports mentalities into sports. And it was not received well by the coaches. It was not received well by the athletes who took it more seriously. And like I had to unlearn that.

Like I was one of those girls that was like, I want to fucking win. I don't know what you're doing out in the field picking daisies, but I want to fucking win. And then I had to like unlearn that because I'm like, we're in like seventh grade. Like it's not, this is not do or die right now. Yeah. And, but.

Silvan (48:33)
But why? Why

did you have to unlearn that? I know, I don't know how old you are in seventh grade. I'm assuming, what, preteen?

lizzy (48:39)
Um,

eighth grade? Okay, so like, you're high school- when you get into high school you're like 14. So like, eighth grade would have been like 13, 14, and then seventh grade would have been 12, 13. Young.

Silvan (48:51)
Yeah, so why should

you have to unlearn that? Because some kids are naturally more competitive than others. And I was that child, similar to you. I wanted to win. You know, I'm not a sore loser, but if we're going to do something, we're going to do it well, and we're going to win. Otherwise, what's the point?

lizzy (48:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I think a lot of it... Well, I think a lot of it is the context. I think, and you know what? My sister is a great example. She, nine years older than me, was never Uber into sports. And so she had a really like different outlook on it than I did. And I think it also comes down to is like, what's more important? You winning a game

Declan (49:09)
It's the fun you had along the way.

No.

lizzy (49:34)
or the well-being of other human beings.

Silvan (49:39)
Kip would say or, I pick or, but I don't, I pick the first one.

lizzy (49:41)
Yeah.

So, and you get to a certain point where like, when you're at the professional level, you don't get to make that decision on your own. Like, that decision is made for you. It's winning the game. Like, that's what's most important. But like, when you're not being paid to do it, when you're doing it for the love and the joy of the game, you have to think like, I'm competitive, I'm not going to not be competitive, but I cannot expect

Declan (49:57)
Mm-hmm.

lizzy (50:11)
I need to expect my teammates to show up to practice, to give effort, to have a good attitude. And outside of that, like, their whatever they've got going on inside their head is one, not my business, and two, not my circus, not my monkeys. Like, if they have other stuff going on, I cannot let that impact how I feel. And I can't take it out on them because, they're a different person than I am. And just because I'm here for this goal doesn't mean they have to be here for this goal as well.

So I think it's context, I think, and that's going to come across as me being like anti-competitiveness, not the case. There's a time and place for competitiveness. Seventh grade basketball was not the time or the place. I think once you get into high school, specifically if you go to like in the US specific high schools are more well known for sports and they're more well equipped to handle athletes that kind of prepare you for college sports.

I think sometimes you get into a mindset there. And then you also have JV versus varsity teams in high school. So that is also the intersection of people who take it maybe, I think also in high school, if you don't take the sport seriously, you don't play it. Which is, think, I don't know if that's the same in other places, but like high school is like the cutoff is like, if you don't want to be there for the betterment of the sport, you don't play it in high school. If you want to play sports, you do intramurals.

But if you don't want to be competitive, then you don't play in high school and then you have JV and varsity teams. And so I think as you get older, as you're more like intellectually aware what's going on and as your frontal lobe has developed a little bit more and you can make better decisions, I think it's okay to be given that option of being competitive. But I think when you're so young, like I think it is very detrimental.

Silvan (52:04)
see, I'm going to get in my soapbox here because I am, I was that competitive child. And I think it's okay to be able to harness that in a child. If they, you know, develop in that way, of course you don't force it on them because then what do we teach kids? We teach kids, yes, it's, know, for the love of the game and it's the journey. Yes, absolutely. But why can't it be about winning? Because life isn't about the journey. Let's be honest.

lizzy (52:09)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Silvan (52:31)
You know, and

lizzy (52:31)
Yeah.

Silvan (52:32)
for some people that's when they're going to start honing in on their craft. That's where they're going to learn. I'm really good at paying this position in volleyball, for example. This is the position I'm going to go in and play in high school and then in college, for example. Like I think we, as a society, I know I'm going on a bit of a rant here, but as a society, we try and sort of diffuse it so it's more palatable for everyone. And it's not, let's just let people work harder what they want to work hard at. Honestly, like.

lizzy (52:44)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Silvan (53:00)
Let kids be kids, but let the kids who are good at something be good at it because naturally some kids, some kids were naturally either very academic in my school or very sporty. And it wasn't fair that the children who were really naturally sporty then felt that they couldn't compete academically. So if you're good at playing football.

lizzy (53:05)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Silvan (53:20)
get the awards, win everything, I don't care, doesn't take anything away from me, but if I want an A at my English Literature exam paper, then I'm definitely gonna get that too.

lizzy (53:23)
Mm-hmm.

I think that's super important. And as I was talking, I don't want it to come across as like, it shouldn't be about winning. If you want it to be about winning, it should be about winning. But if I think when you're younger, I think it's important to take into account that it's not about winning for everybody. And like, you can't make them want it to be about winning, right? Like you can bust your ass and you should. If you're passionate about it, you can bust your ass at practice and get better.

Declan (53:31)
Hmm

lizzy (54:00)
and you can drag your, like, less talented teammates behind you, up a hill, and that's fine and you will be a better athlete for it. But I was just trying to get at, we shouldn't shame the kids who are not naturally competitive because they get, like, scared. They get scared of sports and they don't do it anymore.

Declan (54:10)
and

WIP them free the street.

Silvan (54:23)
KICK HIM OUT!

Declan (54:27)
I have like the complete opposite. am in no way well, I'm not competitive, less like I am competitive in certain ways, but like I never had like a strong England to be the smartest or to be the fastest or the the sort of best sports because I always felt that I wasn't like I wasn't sort of built to be like that. Like I wasn't, I definitely was not built.

be the best at any sport. Like I was very small, very skinny for most of my life and no matter what I would have done, I would never have been the best at it. at that point, it just sort of had the comedy and acceptance of like, I can do certain things, but I can't do this really. I'm never going to be the best at this and I'm not really enjoying losing all the time. So I'm just sort of taking a step away from that because I don't feel like I'm getting anything out of it. if you are someone that is hyper competitive though, and you have

lizzy (55:23)
Hmm?

Declan (55:27)
advantages of being very good at the thing that you're in competition with then yeah go for it obviously I mean we all each have our own unique gifts you should definitely play to your advantages because everyone else will so do that so if you want to be hyper competitive you want to get that a in English if you want to be the top of your class in English then by all means go for it you try to kick everyone's ass you do it good motivation but also know your limits in other areas as well when if you pour

competitiveness into something that is not futile but is going to end up making you feel worse in the long run when you're too much energy into it and you're not getting returns then that's the time to sort of be like maybe it's time to let this go let it simmer down a bit because everyone has their own talents sometimes the thing that you're focusing on isn't what you're meant to be doing

Silvan (56:26)
Yes, and what if Little Declan had a coach who was coaching him to be better at the running, whatever sport it was? How much of a difference would that have made to Little Declan because Lizzie was talking about role models in part one? What if you had that role model that was championing you, even if you were the tiny, skinny little kid, but you could run really fast?

Declan (56:52)
I mean, I did. She was the Gerrard's PE teacher and she took us to have Starbucks instead because I was bad at all the boy sports.

lizzy (57:00)
I love that for her.

Declan (57:03)
Yeah, mean, listen, you can't make up for the loss of like being five foot four when you're 16. It's just not gonna, it's not gonna help you with sport or running much. But ⁓ the people within our school were quite, they like to push people towards sport because it's good for you. it is, it's good for your health and that's good for

physical well-being and your mental well-being as well. So I do encourage people to do sports even if you don't think you're going to win. It's not all about winning. Sometimes the health and the fitness and the just benefits of the general doing of it alone is worth it. But when it does get to competition ⁓ and you are working in a team, I think you need to bring as much of yourself as you possibly can.

lizzy (57:44)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (57:56)
To be fair, no, I wouldn't say that to a 13 year old. I would say it maybe to 15, 16 year old and upwards that if you are going to come up to this, this is optional, no one's forcing you to be here, but if you are going to come up to this, then you need to bring your 100 % because everyone else in this team has, and it's only fair that you do the same.

lizzy (58:05)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. And there are definitely coaches who lead with that. Like high school coaches in the US, a lot of them will be like, if you don't want to be here, there's the door. Like points to the gym door. And I think it goes back to what we talking about of like successful teams all need to have the same mentality. And I think as you get older and the opportunities for participating in different sports increase and like the different like you have

competitive sports and you have JV and you have varsity and you have intramural and you have all these different areas, you need to go towards the sport that the team matches your mentality. I think that's the most important thing.

Silvan (58:58)
I agree. I'm backtracking a little. agree that yes, there was a time and place to push a sport, but maybe there's an age in which that feels a bit forced. you know, allowing them to develop at their own rate and in their own time span, because I was given that opportunity and I tried out lots of different sports throughout my, when I was growing up and I did literally every sport until I found the few that I was happy with and good at, because that makes a difference. Like, like Declan was saying.

And I suppose all these hockey players, know, Shane and Ilya and Scott, they all have that same mentality and that shared value that you were talking about.

Declan (59:38)
think that's us for this episode though. If you guys enjoyed this, obviously follow Lizzie on her socials as well. ⁓ We had a really great time with this discussion. We had to split it into two parts because there was just so much to discuss. But we've had a really, really fun one with this one and hopefully we'll have them back soon with Ren. But guys, like, subscribe, share this. If you are interested in seeing more of this, me and Sylvan also have a book club, Free Fable.

It's the long game podcast book club. At the minute, we are just finishing up with Top Guy by Rachel Reed. We're making our way through the Game Changer series. And also on the podcast, I think for this next episode, me and Selvin will be getting into Heated Rivalry, the book, the first half of it, and we'll be having that discussion then. So if that sounds good to you, or if you're interested in any of that, then give us a shout and we'll see you all next time.