WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:04.850 --> 00:00:07.650 voiceover: A key component of the modern world economy, the chemical 00:00:07.650 --> 00:00:11.190 industry delivers products and innovations to enhance everyday life. 00:00:11.710 --> 00:00:16.150 It is also an industry in transformation where chemical executives and workers 00:00:16.170 --> 00:00:19.790 are delivering growth and industry changing advancements while responding 00:00:19.790 --> 00:00:24.320 to pressures from investors, regulators, and public opinion, discover how 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:28.170 leading companies are approaching these challenges here on the chemical show. 00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:31.980 Join Victoria Meyer, president of Progressio Global and 00:00:31.990 --> 00:00:33.410 host of the chemical show. 00:00:33.685 --> 00:00:37.885 As she speaks with executives across the industry and learns how they are leading 00:00:37.885 --> 00:00:43.465 their companies to grow, transform, and push industry boundaries on all frontiers. 00:00:43.805 --> 00:00:46.055 Here's your host, Victoria Meyer. 00:00:48.769 --> 00:00:50.229 Victoria: Hi, this is Victoria Meyer. 00:00:50.579 --> 00:00:54.349 Welcome back to The Chemical Show, where Chemicals Means Business. 00:00:54.959 --> 00:01:01.849 Today, I am speaking with Eric Bober, who is the Senior VP at Nexant ECA. 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:05.679 And Eric, you might recall, was on The Chemical Show earlier 00:01:05.699 --> 00:01:08.179 this year on Episode 148. 00:01:08.199 --> 00:01:10.159 So if you haven't listened to it, go check it out. 00:01:10.159 --> 00:01:15.459 Eric and I are really continuing this conversation about green chemicals, 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:19.599 evolution and revolution, and diving a little bit deeper into methanol. 00:01:19.749 --> 00:01:22.229 So, Eric, welcome to The Chemical Show. 00:01:22.791 --> 00:01:23.851 Eric: Thanks very much, Victoria. 00:01:23.851 --> 00:01:24.551 Great to be here. 00:01:25.099 --> 00:01:27.199 Victoria: Yeah, absolutely, happy to have you back. 00:01:27.629 --> 00:01:30.189 Um, so, let's just jump right in. 00:01:30.859 --> 00:01:31.809 What's changed? 00:01:31.809 --> 00:01:35.219 So, we talked earlier this year, and it seems like this is a year, and of 00:01:35.219 --> 00:01:39.779 course it's a decade, that everybody's very focused on green and sustainability 00:01:39.789 --> 00:01:41.819 and getting to some new molecules. 00:01:42.559 --> 00:01:44.389 What's changed since we last talked? 00:01:45.716 --> 00:01:51.146 Eric: Well, when we talked last time, one of the main issues we talked about was how 00:01:51.196 --> 00:01:56.266 in terms of green chemicals in general and green methanol, in particular, the markets 00:01:56.536 --> 00:02:01.086 were demanding revolutionary results, but it takes an evolutionary approach. 00:02:01.686 --> 00:02:06.096 And what's changed is the revolution continues and the evolution 00:02:06.196 --> 00:02:08.541 seems It's to be bogged down. 00:02:09.099 --> 00:02:09.749 Victoria: Yeah. 00:02:09.819 --> 00:02:10.709 So what does that mean? 00:02:10.709 --> 00:02:12.619 So how, why, how are we bogged down? 00:02:14.041 --> 00:02:18.861 Eric: So there's a lot of pent up demand for environmentally improved methanol. 00:02:18.981 --> 00:02:23.541 So one application for that will be as a bunker fuel and 00:02:23.571 --> 00:02:25.021 as a marine fuel for ships. 00:02:25.519 --> 00:02:25.879 Victoria: Yeah. 00:02:26.241 --> 00:02:29.401 Eric: And there's been hundreds of ships that have been ordered. 00:02:30.001 --> 00:02:35.891 And in fact, in 2023, there were about 135 ships ordered that 00:02:35.891 --> 00:02:37.641 could use methanol as a fuel. 00:02:37.791 --> 00:02:41.531 It made methanol the number one alternative fuel for ships ordered in 00:02:41.749 --> 00:02:42.339 Victoria: Wow. 00:02:43.306 --> 00:02:47.886 Eric: And those ships are going to start coming on stream starting next year. 00:02:48.026 --> 00:02:48.286 So 00:02:48.286 --> 00:02:54.016 in 2025, 2026, 2027, we're going to have ships coming on that could 00:02:54.016 --> 00:02:58.581 use methanol, but we haven't really had a lot of methanol projects 00:02:58.771 --> 00:03:00.851 break ground to meet that demand. 00:03:02.029 --> 00:03:07.309 Victoria: So is there enough methanol already built to meet that demand? 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:13.369 Or, or what happens if, if we don't have that um, corresponding development and 00:03:13.369 --> 00:03:15.289 investment in the methanol business? 00:03:16.431 --> 00:03:20.781 Eric: So those ships would like to use environmentally improved methanol. 00:03:21.251 --> 00:03:22.831 There will be gray methanol. 00:03:23.911 --> 00:03:26.401 lacking is the environmentally improved methanol. 00:03:26.471 --> 00:03:30.121 It looks like we're going to have steel on the seas before 00:03:30.121 --> 00:03:31.471 we have steel on the ground. 00:03:31.964 --> 00:03:33.664 Victoria: Yeah, that's interesting. 00:03:33.834 --> 00:03:38.284 Well, certainly one of the things I heard earlier this year, I attended 00:03:38.404 --> 00:03:43.484 S&P Global's WPC, World Petrochemical Conference, and, and there was a lot 00:03:43.484 --> 00:03:48.584 of conversation about shipping and decarbonizing shipping and, one of the 00:03:48.604 --> 00:03:52.314 questions people asked, well, this is all fine, but who's going to pay for it? 00:03:52.414 --> 00:03:56.704 I think, you know, so there's this concern that green methanol is higher 00:03:56.704 --> 00:04:01.654 priced methanol or not, maybe not higher price, a higher cost basis, right? 00:04:01.694 --> 00:04:04.394 Because it's expensive, at least initially, until 00:04:04.394 --> 00:04:05.494 the cost curves come down. 00:04:05.804 --> 00:04:07.844 And the question is, you know, who's going to pay for it? 00:04:07.854 --> 00:04:11.134 Maybe that's one of the things that's slowing us down a bit 00:04:11.174 --> 00:04:12.264 in the development of it. 00:04:13.106 --> 00:04:13.886 Eric: It could be. 00:04:13.986 --> 00:04:15.786 There are subsidies available. 00:04:15.786 --> 00:04:17.256 There are grants available. 00:04:17.266 --> 00:04:19.001 So there's There's carrots. 00:04:19.271 --> 00:04:20.891 There's help to build a plant. 00:04:21.041 --> 00:04:23.731 There's help in terms of subsidies to prices. 00:04:24.401 --> 00:04:28.631 So we need to sort of get the ball rolling and get some steel on the ground. 00:04:29.161 --> 00:04:31.911 What we're seeing now is a lot of announcements 00:04:32.571 --> 00:04:37.101 but the announcements are not coming through to reaching financial 00:04:37.101 --> 00:04:39.096 close and starting construction. 00:04:39.356 --> 00:04:42.586 So we need to sort of get over that hump, get through the valley. 00:04:42.726 --> 00:04:46.556 Um, some call it a valley of death where projects die, but we 00:04:46.556 --> 00:04:49.866 need to get through and get some of these projects really going. 00:04:50.409 --> 00:04:50.799 Victoria: Yeah. 00:04:50.819 --> 00:04:51.649 So it's interesting. 00:04:51.689 --> 00:04:56.279 So I know you and Nexant ECA work pretty closely with a lot of companies 00:04:56.639 --> 00:04:59.319 that are, um, developing projects. 00:05:00.059 --> 00:05:04.879 What are the challenges that they're facing, um, and 00:05:05.059 --> 00:05:06.239 maybe even the opportunities? 00:05:06.249 --> 00:05:10.409 How do you, how are you seeing them trying to overcome this challenge and get there? 00:05:11.816 --> 00:05:13.886 Eric: Developing any project is hard. 00:05:13.986 --> 00:05:15.746 Project development is very difficult. 00:05:15.746 --> 00:05:20.046 It's a long road, but what we need to do is with all of this pent 00:05:20.046 --> 00:05:23.896 up demand, we need to translate that demand into consumption. 00:05:24.396 --> 00:05:29.181 So that takes developing a project, making an investment decision, 00:05:29.451 --> 00:05:34.431 building the project, and actually turning that into production that 00:05:34.431 --> 00:05:37.651 can be consumed to meet that demand. 00:05:38.301 --> 00:05:40.571 So project development is very difficult. 00:05:40.601 --> 00:05:44.741 You need a, you need to overcome many risks and it's even harder 00:05:44.741 --> 00:05:48.541 for a project with a new technology or with added technologies. 00:05:49.469 --> 00:05:49.889 Victoria: Yeah. 00:05:50.219 --> 00:05:52.959 So do you see any front runners or are there things that front 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:54.469 runners are doing differently? 00:05:55.761 --> 00:05:58.951 Eric: One of the things we see that we really like is companies 00:05:58.951 --> 00:06:00.621 that are forming consortiums. 00:06:01.356 --> 00:06:06.406 So let people concentrate on their core strengths and partner with other 00:06:06.426 --> 00:06:11.766 companies that can help them, whether it's with raw material supply, whether 00:06:11.766 --> 00:06:15.586 it's with the offtake agreements, whether it's on the shipping end itself. 00:06:16.116 --> 00:06:20.476 So we like for people to partner with others that have strengths 00:06:20.476 --> 00:06:21.976 that can compliment their own. 00:06:22.316 --> 00:06:24.336 And we are sometimes part of that. 00:06:24.366 --> 00:06:30.046 So there's an increased need for advisors in a project development process that 00:06:30.046 --> 00:06:34.896 involves new technologies to help investors and lenders understand and 00:06:34.906 --> 00:06:36.886 mitigate the risks that will be involved. 00:06:37.444 --> 00:06:38.474 Victoria: Yeah, makes sense. 00:06:38.734 --> 00:06:43.704 And, and do you see this growth happening more or less in one region? 00:06:43.704 --> 00:06:48.204 So what I think about this, and this is my simple view of the world, you 00:06:48.204 --> 00:06:53.354 know, so a ship that's built that's designed to be able to run methanol, 00:06:54.294 --> 00:06:58.534 You know, maybe it's picking, it's refueling, uh, let's just say in the U. 00:06:58.534 --> 00:06:58.874 S., 00:06:58.914 --> 00:07:04.424 and it's picking up its load of product to go, let's just say to Asia, although 00:07:04.424 --> 00:07:07.564 I don't, you know, yeah, it could go, ships go back and forth between Asia. 00:07:07.564 --> 00:07:10.814 What it's taking back and forth is somewhat of a mystery at times. 00:07:10.814 --> 00:07:14.894 It feels like it's, uh, often a one directional load, but I would 00:07:14.894 --> 00:07:19.324 imagine it's not just that we have to be satisfying the demand 00:07:19.324 --> 00:07:21.644 for green methanol in one region. 00:07:22.269 --> 00:07:28.699 That the shipping companies need that demand and supply satisfied in all the 00:07:28.709 --> 00:07:30.939 regions that they're shipping between. 00:07:30.949 --> 00:07:31.569 Is that true? 00:07:32.096 --> 00:07:32.916 Eric: It's very true. 00:07:32.996 --> 00:07:33.726 It's very true. 00:07:33.966 --> 00:07:37.546 And that's actually one of the strengths for methanol as opposed 00:07:37.556 --> 00:07:38.936 to other alternative fuels. 00:07:39.386 --> 00:07:40.936 Methanol is very shippable. 00:07:41.296 --> 00:07:43.906 It already has a global infrastructure established. 00:07:44.381 --> 00:07:47.151 It's safer to use than many other fuels. 00:07:47.161 --> 00:07:48.001 It's liquid. 00:07:48.691 --> 00:07:51.451 It's already proven as a fuel as well. 00:07:51.561 --> 00:07:58.701 I recall working with a client that told me that in the 1980s, when methanol was 00:07:58.711 --> 00:08:04.331 being tested for its ability to be a fuel for vehicles for personal automobiles. 00:08:04.601 --> 00:08:08.301 He actually had a test car for six months fueled with methanol 00:08:08.851 --> 00:08:10.261 and he said it drove great. 00:08:10.381 --> 00:08:11.611 There was no difference to him. 00:08:11.611 --> 00:08:15.341 He only had to go to the methanol pump to get refueled. 00:08:15.871 --> 00:08:18.351 So there's a lot of advantages of methanol. 00:08:18.351 --> 00:08:22.051 And I think those strengths need to be leveraged better than they are currently. 00:08:22.509 --> 00:08:23.009 Victoria: Yeah. 00:08:23.049 --> 00:08:26.829 And is this a, so I know you talked about consortiums. 00:08:27.219 --> 00:08:32.249 Um, I mean I think there's the other aspect is maybe government incentives. 00:08:32.249 --> 00:08:34.409 Is that the other way that we're going to get there? 00:08:35.701 --> 00:08:36.131 Eric: There's. 00:08:36.481 --> 00:08:37.731 Two different ways to do it. 00:08:37.741 --> 00:08:39.711 One is incentives and one is penalty. 00:08:39.711 --> 00:08:43.971 So it's carrots and sticks and they're both working in different 00:08:43.981 --> 00:08:45.591 regions and in different ways. 00:08:45.991 --> 00:08:47.331 Here in, in the U. 00:08:47.331 --> 00:08:47.531 S. 00:08:47.751 --> 00:08:49.021 we have mostly carrots. 00:08:49.131 --> 00:08:52.271 So it's incentives to help build, to help run. 00:08:52.741 --> 00:08:55.031 In Europe, they're looking more at penalties. 00:08:55.071 --> 00:09:00.181 So increased costs if you don't comply with the targeted green 00:09:00.251 --> 00:09:02.251 and, and environmentally improved. 00:09:02.796 --> 00:09:05.006 Um, benefits of the products. 00:09:05.494 --> 00:09:07.454 victoria_3_05-21-2024_133600: Given that we say that we're still long, 00:09:07.864 --> 00:09:13.494 is there really an incentive to build other than managing carbon? 00:09:13.494 --> 00:09:14.824 Is there ways to manage carbon? 00:09:14.834 --> 00:09:20.174 How are companies thinking about the fact that maybe they're actually already 00:09:20.474 --> 00:09:24.984 operating in a long market environment and do they have the economics made 00:09:25.004 --> 00:09:27.754 to, to support that new investment? 00:09:29.076 --> 00:09:31.836 eric_3_05-21-2024_143600: One of the aspects I worry about, and I wonder if 00:09:31.836 --> 00:09:33.766 it's one of the things slowing us down. 00:09:34.411 --> 00:09:36.181 Is cannibalization. 00:09:36.321 --> 00:09:41.011 So people who are already in the methanol market, if they have product 00:09:41.011 --> 00:09:45.001 that they're already selling into the market, this new environmentally improved 00:09:45.001 --> 00:09:49.031 methanol, I wonder if they're worried about it displacing their current 00:09:49.204 --> 00:09:49.674 victoria_3_05-21-2024_133600: Hmm. 00:09:50.464 --> 00:09:50.844 Hmm. 00:09:51.064 --> 00:09:51.734 That makes sense. 00:09:51.974 --> 00:09:59.904 And then, is, is there, what's the role of kind of private investors in methanol? 00:09:59.964 --> 00:10:03.744 Because it felt, seems like at least for a while, methanol investment 00:10:03.744 --> 00:10:06.114 was a little opportunistic, right? 00:10:06.114 --> 00:10:10.044 That, that the projects were being built, many projects were being 00:10:10.054 --> 00:10:17.064 built by project developers, not necessarily by operators and marketers. 00:10:18.274 --> 00:10:19.404 What do you see today? 00:10:20.091 --> 00:10:21.531 eric_3_05-21-2024_143600: It's an interesting observation. 00:10:21.531 --> 00:10:26.971 And when I see project developers coming into our market, I always think that means 00:10:26.971 --> 00:10:30.871 it's a good market because the project developers are looking to come in and, 00:10:30.891 --> 00:10:32.731 and develop the project and make money. 00:10:33.364 --> 00:10:33.744 victoria_3_05-21-2024_133600: Yeah. 00:10:34.016 --> 00:10:36.186 eric_3_05-21-2024_143600: they're seeing opportunity and I think they're 00:10:36.186 --> 00:10:38.266 seeing opportunity in methanol again. 00:10:38.506 --> 00:10:42.806 I think under the surface we have project developers that are targeting 00:10:42.806 --> 00:10:47.386 this sector because they see a long term future in it, especially to help in that 00:10:47.386 --> 00:10:52.726 shift from traditional fossil product to environmentally improved product. 00:10:53.344 --> 00:10:54.324 victoria_3_05-21-2024_133600: Yeah, makes sense. 00:10:54.394 --> 00:10:58.334 And, and so there's, there's, in the long term, there's money to be made. 00:10:59.014 --> 00:11:00.154 We just have to get there. 00:11:00.796 --> 00:11:01.086 eric_3_05-21-2024_143600: Yes. 00:11:01.849 --> 00:11:03.199 Victoria: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:11:03.409 --> 00:11:05.689 Alright, so, so I'm going to take this back a bit. 00:11:05.709 --> 00:11:11.269 So the, the green in green methanol is because of the energy. 00:11:11.299 --> 00:11:15.049 Am I right, or is there actually a different technology that gets us there? 00:11:15.941 --> 00:11:19.581 Eric: So another benefit of methanol, there's a lot of ways to get there. 00:11:19.601 --> 00:11:24.321 And that's why I like to talk about environmentally improved and not green or 00:11:24.321 --> 00:11:27.491 blue or pink or turquoise or aquamarine. 00:11:28.081 --> 00:11:33.621 So we're looking at products that have lower carbon intensity, lower CI scores. 00:11:34.011 --> 00:11:39.101 So provide, um, a product that has less of an impact on the environment 00:11:39.491 --> 00:11:43.091 and the extent to which you go down that road really depends 00:11:43.091 --> 00:11:44.421 on the markets you're serving. 00:11:45.171 --> 00:11:47.861 And with methanol, you can do that with different feedstocks. 00:11:48.751 --> 00:11:52.291 You can do that with different process technologies, and you can also do 00:11:52.291 --> 00:11:56.591 that by managing what's emitted from your plant, whether that's 00:11:56.621 --> 00:12:00.551 actually emissions or how your product itself is handled. 00:12:01.021 --> 00:12:02.521 So there's a lot of opportunity. 00:12:03.181 --> 00:12:07.201 What we're seeing a lot of is small projects that are 00:12:07.201 --> 00:12:09.551 using fully new technologies. 00:12:09.621 --> 00:12:13.671 So, like you said, what people refer to as green, so electrolysis 00:12:14.531 --> 00:12:17.581 provided hydrogen, maybe captured CO2. 00:12:18.291 --> 00:12:23.744 But what we could use to get there is more traditional plants that have 00:12:23.744 --> 00:12:25.522 carbon capture attached to them. 00:12:25.522 --> 00:12:31.176 And then you need to have something to do with your CO2.Whether that's 00:12:31.226 --> 00:12:37.606 sequestering it or selling that or reusing that, but those traditional core 00:12:37.606 --> 00:12:43.106 technologies with maybe an addition of something like carbon capture, I think 00:12:43.116 --> 00:12:45.306 can get us over the hurdle a lot faster. 00:12:45.749 --> 00:12:46.119 Victoria: Yeah. 00:12:46.599 --> 00:12:46.879 Yeah. 00:12:47.079 --> 00:12:51.309 And certainly I think if, if we think about, um, I guess 00:12:51.309 --> 00:12:52.189 just the different regions. 00:12:52.219 --> 00:12:55.069 I think about Europe, and Europe obviously has an energy issue. 00:12:56.054 --> 00:13:02.284 More so than the other regions do, or, or maybe sooner than other regions do, right? 00:13:02.284 --> 00:13:06.674 So they're active, both from a policy perspective, but also just 00:13:06.674 --> 00:13:09.134 from an availability perspective. 00:13:09.134 --> 00:13:14.454 They're shifting, um, pretty hard towards green energy, right? 00:13:15.574 --> 00:13:19.634 Do you see them using different technologies ultimately, and is Europe 00:13:19.634 --> 00:13:23.024 even really investing in this space, because it feels like investment in 00:13:23.024 --> 00:13:25.294 Europe is challenging at the moment. 00:13:25.754 --> 00:13:30.014 Do you see them trying to get there faster, just because they have 00:13:30.014 --> 00:13:31.904 to, the whole necessity of it? 00:13:32.841 --> 00:13:34.161 Eric: It is difficult in Europe. 00:13:34.301 --> 00:13:37.201 They have challenges, but everybody in different regions 00:13:37.201 --> 00:13:38.481 has their own challenges. 00:13:38.991 --> 00:13:40.511 And we do see it in Europe. 00:13:40.541 --> 00:13:44.091 We do see people trying to develop projects in Europe. 00:13:44.431 --> 00:13:48.831 Like you said, they may be conceptually different from projects you see in 00:13:48.831 --> 00:13:50.791 Asia or projects you see in America. 00:13:51.551 --> 00:13:54.501 But, they are trying to get there as well. 00:13:55.724 --> 00:13:57.854 Victoria: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that's true. 00:13:58.024 --> 00:13:59.684 How do we speed things up? 00:13:59.714 --> 00:14:05.144 Because, and, you know, we talked about this as being, um, revolution versus 00:14:05.144 --> 00:14:07.674 evolution, and we need the evolution. 00:14:08.119 --> 00:14:13.209 of developing the, as you say, environmentally improved 00:14:13.239 --> 00:14:15.799 methanol, um, to catch up. 00:14:16.549 --> 00:14:20.929 What are the solutions that you see coming to, to help resolve this? 00:14:22.571 --> 00:14:24.221 Eric: Let me answer that two ways. 00:14:24.261 --> 00:14:28.591 One is sort of a stop gap and one as a longer term. 00:14:28.991 --> 00:14:32.181 The stop gap is we have plenty of methanol. 00:14:32.991 --> 00:14:37.981 Old fashioned methanol, natural gas based, some would call gray methanol or brown 00:14:37.981 --> 00:14:44.711 methanol from coal, and that could be used in these ships as an interim, and 00:14:44.931 --> 00:14:51.201 it actually could be beneficial in that it can prove that methanol is viable as a 00:14:51.201 --> 00:14:54.191 fuel, it could prove out the supply chain. 00:14:55.206 --> 00:14:58.886 But it doesn't get us to the environmentally improved, uh, end 00:14:58.886 --> 00:15:00.676 point that we're all hoping for. 00:15:01.066 --> 00:15:05.006 And I think for that, I think this consortium concept is good. 00:15:05.346 --> 00:15:09.316 I think, I think to one particular client that we've worked 00:15:09.316 --> 00:15:11.316 with over the last six years. 00:15:11.566 --> 00:15:14.386 So they've been trying to develop a project for six years 00:15:14.816 --> 00:15:16.546 and I think they'll get, 00:15:16.789 --> 00:15:19.949 Victoria: long and short in the project development world. 00:15:20.306 --> 00:15:21.406 Eric: it is, it is. 00:15:21.701 --> 00:15:24.591 Um, I'm hoping they get to financial close this summer and 00:15:24.591 --> 00:15:26.631 we'll break ground in the fall. 00:15:26.841 --> 00:15:29.681 But what they've done is, is they've looked for partners. 00:15:29.731 --> 00:15:33.541 They've looked for people to help them with feedstocks, to help them 00:15:33.541 --> 00:15:37.481 with technologies, to help them with the ever important offtake agreement. 00:15:38.071 --> 00:15:42.601 And we've helped them with their marketing plan, as well as with technology 00:15:42.601 --> 00:15:44.231 assessments and risk mitigation. 00:15:44.851 --> 00:15:49.551 And one of the things they've done very effectively is market segmentation. 00:15:50.121 --> 00:15:54.371 So they've looked at the market and thought about where could their particular 00:15:54.371 --> 00:16:00.511 product with their CI score earn the most in terms of netbacks to the plant. 00:16:01.021 --> 00:16:03.741 And it's something I've done personally in my career. 00:16:03.771 --> 00:16:05.751 I ran a product line. 00:16:05.751 --> 00:16:10.431 I was a product manager when recycling became popular and we developed a 00:16:10.431 --> 00:16:12.311 recycled version of our product. 00:16:12.551 --> 00:16:15.541 But it costs more, there was dirt in the raw material. 00:16:15.541 --> 00:16:17.211 We had to run our lines slower. 00:16:18.171 --> 00:16:22.211 Uh, we had more off spec products and all these things increase the cost. 00:16:22.571 --> 00:16:25.131 So I wanted to charge more for the product. 00:16:26.011 --> 00:16:31.121 But the boss, the senior vice president that ran the business said, no way 00:16:31.131 --> 00:16:33.081 you have to sell it at the same price. 00:16:33.731 --> 00:16:34.371 So. 00:16:34.931 --> 00:16:38.651 I look for market segments that would volunteer to pay more. 00:16:38.651 --> 00:16:42.751 I looked for market segments for which a recycled product would earn 00:16:42.761 --> 00:16:45.161 them more money or more market share. 00:16:45.581 --> 00:16:49.761 And I found one and I developed the business with the number one 00:16:50.181 --> 00:16:52.111 customer in that market segment. 00:16:52.171 --> 00:16:57.041 And they were happy to offset my added costs because the recycled version 00:16:57.041 --> 00:17:01.053 of the product added a lot more value for them and their customers then 00:17:01.053 --> 00:17:02.681 I was charging them an upcharge. 00:17:02.971 --> 00:17:04.011 So we need to do that. 00:17:04.011 --> 00:17:08.521 We need to, to get back to marketing basics and look for the segments that 00:17:08.601 --> 00:17:10.371 can provide the value that you need. 00:17:10.961 --> 00:17:11.701 Victoria: Yeah, certainly. 00:17:11.719 --> 00:17:15.899 And I think, I think we are doing that maybe, in some product areas 00:17:15.909 --> 00:17:20.464 more than others, I think, um, you know, we often think of methanol as 00:17:20.464 --> 00:17:22.579 a truly commoditized basic chemical. 00:17:22.589 --> 00:17:29.759 So, um, it's, uh, maybe easy to think that there's limited market segmentation, 00:17:30.009 --> 00:17:32.839 but to your point, It, it is there. 00:17:33.129 --> 00:17:36.049 And there's certainly some markets that are probably willing to pay 00:17:36.099 --> 00:17:40.969 more than others and can, and frankly just the affordability of the higher 00:17:40.989 --> 00:17:45.209 cost, um, methanol, environmentally improved methanol is there. 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:49.189 Do you have any hypotheses on that that you'd like to share? 00:17:49.941 --> 00:17:51.781 Eric: Well, I don't want to get into specific market 00:17:52.311 --> 00:17:54.641 but I, but I think, I think they are there. 00:17:54.681 --> 00:17:55.591 I really do. 00:17:56.011 --> 00:18:02.601 I think that, um, you know, methanol had a big thing when methanol came 00:18:02.859 --> 00:18:08.429 and it went from zero to adding incremental demands that made MTO 00:18:08.459 --> 00:18:10.549 the number one market segment for 00:18:10.837 --> 00:18:11.217 Victoria: Yeah. 00:18:11.619 --> 00:18:17.734 Eric: Methanol is a very versatile product, and the opportunity to use 00:18:17.734 --> 00:18:21.484 methanol as a marine fuel could be the next big thing for methanol. 00:18:21.874 --> 00:18:23.764 And there's other opportunities as well. 00:18:23.824 --> 00:18:29.564 I'd love to see, this is just a personal love, if we can use environmentally 00:18:29.564 --> 00:18:35.874 improved methanol to make green plastics through MTO, conceptually, it's easy. 00:18:36.324 --> 00:18:36.804 So 00:18:37.137 --> 00:18:39.067 Victoria: Everything's easy conceptually. 00:18:40.274 --> 00:18:43.604 Eric: With the strong push to green plastics, I wouldn't be surprised 00:18:43.634 --> 00:18:48.864 to see green plastics made from environmentally improved methanol, 00:18:48.864 --> 00:18:50.714 even here in the united States. 00:18:51.574 --> 00:18:55.324 Victoria: Where, is most of the MTO work happening today? 00:18:55.634 --> 00:18:55.664 I 00:18:55.664 --> 00:18:56.244 Eric: it's in China 00:18:56.244 --> 00:18:59.414 Victoria: do we have, it is China, and do we have really commercially 00:18:59.414 --> 00:19:02.844 viable MTO technologies in place? 00:19:03.071 --> 00:19:03.801 Eric: Absolutely. 00:19:04.024 --> 00:19:04.344 Victoria: Okay. 00:19:05.961 --> 00:19:09.761 Eric: And one other market segment I was going to mention is methanol to jet fuel. 00:19:10.291 --> 00:19:15.186 So, Ethanol to jet fuel and alcohol in general to jet fuel has been 00:19:15.186 --> 00:19:16.556 talked about for a long time. 00:19:16.556 --> 00:19:20.646 But now that the excitement is around potentially methanol to jet fuel. 00:19:21.154 --> 00:19:21.644 Victoria: Okay. 00:19:22.024 --> 00:19:25.094 And so this would be a form of SAF, 00:19:25.124 --> 00:19:26.014 I guess? 00:19:26.654 --> 00:19:31.004 Uh, Sustainable Aviation Fuel, it's the lingo we're all supposed to know. 00:19:31.369 --> 00:19:32.899 One of the many acronyms. 00:19:33.169 --> 00:19:33.639 , Awesome. 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:37.679 Um, so what else, what should we be looking for then in terms 00:19:37.709 --> 00:19:40.189 of kind of timing to get there? 00:19:40.189 --> 00:19:43.039 What we should be expecting over the rest of the year when we think 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:47.989 about Methanol, green methanol and environmentally improved methanol. 00:19:49.146 --> 00:19:55.086 Eric: Well, as I was preparing for this session and I was thinking about the ships 00:19:55.176 --> 00:20:02.026 coming on stream starting next year, I, I thought of the old movie, Field of Dreams. 00:20:02.456 --> 00:20:02.716 If you 00:20:02.716 --> 00:20:06.736 remember the quote from that movie was, "If you build it, he will come." 00:20:07.256 --> 00:20:12.151 And I think in this case, They're coming, so we need to build it. 00:20:13.181 --> 00:20:14.171 The ships are coming. 00:20:14.181 --> 00:20:15.981 They're going to come starting next year. 00:20:16.201 --> 00:20:20.221 And if we can have environmentally improved methanol, the ships will use it. 00:20:20.889 --> 00:20:22.129 Victoria: Yeah, absolutely. 00:20:22.179 --> 00:20:23.039 I think it's a great point. 00:20:23.439 --> 00:20:26.269 Well, Eric, this has been a great conversation. 00:20:26.269 --> 00:20:29.679 I think, uh, learned a lot more about what's going on in the world of methanol, 00:20:29.679 --> 00:20:34.419 and I think this is really one of the foundational chemical products that 00:20:34.419 --> 00:20:39.379 connects us to the shipping industry and to a large consumer that, as you pointed 00:20:39.379 --> 00:20:43.469 out, really has potential to decarbonize. 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:47.949 And in many ways it's being asked to decarbonize perhaps faster 00:20:47.949 --> 00:20:48.999 than some other industries. 00:20:49.009 --> 00:20:52.959 So it'll be great to see how this continues to develop. 00:20:54.131 --> 00:20:54.641 Eric: I agree. 00:20:54.661 --> 00:20:55.161 Thank you. 00:20:55.549 --> 00:20:56.229 Victoria: Yeah, absolutely. 00:20:56.229 --> 00:20:57.669 Well, thanks for joining us today. 00:20:58.129 --> 00:21:01.839 And thanks everyone for joining us on this episode of The Chemical Show. 00:21:01.869 --> 00:21:05.834 Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will talk again soon. 00:21:08.478 --> 00:21:10.258 voiceover: We've come to the end of today's podcast. 00:21:10.668 --> 00:21:13.218 We hope you enjoyed your time with us and want to learn more. 00:21:13.627 --> 00:21:15.887 Simply visit TheChemicalShow. 00:21:15.897 --> 00:21:18.647 com for additional information and helpful resources. 00:21:19.337 --> 00:21:23.387 Join us again next time here on The Chemical Show with Victoria Meyer.