[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond. [00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Le. And I could touch you cause we. [00:00:18] Dan: You can. I'm reporting you to HR. [00:00:21] Pia: We are here in front of your wife, touching. Uh, no. We are here because I have flown over to the, to England for a wonderful family wedding and we are currently doing this podcast in the Swan in Marbury, in the middle of the Cheshire countryside after a thousand days of working virtually. [00:00:45] Dan: Yeah. Not seeing amazing. And it's amazing to see you. We actually have one of our guests ask me, um, just recently is, is Pia actually in Australia? Yeah. You have been Yeah, for over a thousand days. It was February, 2019 when I last saw you. And um, Yeah. Amazing to be together to record this podcast as well. [00:01:02] But we are not alone, Pia. No, we are, as you just mentioned, we have with us the lovely Mrs. Hammond, also known as Juliet, and we are delighted to have you with us today. [00:01:12] Juliet: Hello to both of you. Nice having you. [00:01:15] Dan: It's an absolute pleasure. An absolute pleasure. So a part of, if we can suppress our excitement, I know, um, for a minute, which you we're here to talk to you about some, um, some research you've just completed. But why don't you tell us, first of all, a little bit about yourself. [00:01:30] Juliet: Okay. Um, so I started life as an economist. I worked for Unilever, um, providing economic advice. Specifically looking at South America, uh, which was an absolutely wonderful, um, and fascinating time. I then moved into strategy consulting as spent most of my time in strategy consulting. A little bit of a trip out to investment banking, but I saw sense fairly fast. [00:01:53] Dan: it back again. [00:01:55] Juliet: Got back into, uh, strategy consulting. And then actually when our kids were little, I went back to university and did a degree in psychology. And the combination of economics and psychology led. Somehow to leadership. And so I then started working in leadership, but mostly always on the data side. And so data has been, Happy place and, uh, my interest. [00:02:18] Pia: Wow. And what's your role today? [00:02:21] Juliet: So today I'd like to share with you some findings from our latest research that we do every year in partnership with the London School of Economics. So we support students on the, um, HR and organization Design Masters course, and we work in partnership on a research project each year. And this year we have been looking at hybrid teams. [00:02:41] Dan: And I should say you are here in your role as the business analyst at Squadify because at Squadify we say that nepotism is okay as long as you keep it in family. Keep time. Exactly. [00:02:53] Pia: What's exactly, I mean, I think really this is all about being intentional. [00:02:57] Dan: That's right. We made some deliberate choices here, so, um, so yeah, welcome. We're looking forward to hearing it. So tell us a little bit more about let's get stuck in. Talk to us about the scope and how it worked and what are we hearing? [00:03:08] Juliet: Mm-hmm. Okay, so this project is looking at, um, Squadify scores across the entire population of teams that have used Squadify. Um, but taking a slightly different angle in that we were looking at, uh, people's attitudes to teamwork. So typically teams that complete Squadify answer the questions twice, um, once for the importance of the conditions in the team, and then a second time for the presence of those conditions. And in that way, they're able to define what's really important for them as a team, and then they can assess how they're doing. [00:03:41] So this time we really wanted to focus in on that first set of questions. So what's important for you? And try and understand the differences in attitudes and prior. For hybrid teams versus face to face teams. [00:03:53] Pia: So I wanted say just something in context here. When we started Squadify, we had a bit, we remember you and I talking about this. And we thought everyone's just gonna score this cuz it's a rate of one to five. This is probably gonna be a bit of a dud piece of information and a bit futile. Because of course everyone's just gonna give it fives for all the questions. And then what happens? [00:04:16] Juliet: And then actually it's turned out to be incredibly revealing. [00:04:19] Pia: Yeah, that's good. [00:04:22] Juliet: And actually there's quite a variation in important score and what's really interesting is, is understanding that of course, for a sales team, there are gonna be different priorities of what's important versus an R and D team or a HR team. And so in that way, we help the teams to really define what's important for them and then score themselves against their own objectives as for teamwork as opposed to a generic set of, of, of measures. [00:04:49] Dan: And it changes over time, doesn't it? So a team might see something's important now and then in three months see something else important. So you're really customizing your responses, aren't you? Each time I think. [00:05:00] Juliet: Yes, absolutely. [00:05:00] Dan: Yeah. [00:05:01] Juliet: And I think you saw that in our previous research, um, on teams that have gone through the Covid experience. [00:05:06] Dan: Yeah. [00:05:06] Juliet: And seeing how those schools changed as their. Changed over time and they moved much more to, uh, pay attention to people and relationships as, as they went through the covid experience. [00:05:18] Dan: Perfect. [00:05:18] Juliet: This is slightly different. [00:05:19] Dan: Yes, indeed. And so we thought for this podcast we might hear the insights and then actually talk around a little bit sharing our own experience of working as, um, [00:05:29] Juliet: Yeah. [00:05:29] Dan: As a hybrid remote team. Um, We work with people around the world that we never see pretty much. Obviously you and I see each other. Yeah. But pretty much No, we, we, we have Lucky Philippines. We're lucky. We're the lucky to Exactly. But we have, uh, the development teams in, in Columbia, people in Spain, So we are dispersed. So I thought we could share some of the things we've learned and done around how we've managed to, we, I would say, thrive in this, uh, in this remote environment. [00:05:57] Juliet: Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:05:58] Dan: So what did you find? [00:06:00] Juliet: Well, there was some fascinating, um, outcomes from this research. I'll start with the first one, which seems really simple, but actually is incredibly insightful. [00:06:08] So we compared, um, fully virtual and hybrid together with face to face teams. And one of the, the first, uh, insight is that the importance score for every single condition in Squadify was higher for hybrid teams than for face to face teams. And I think what this is revealing is that actually, and what we heard in the interviews that we did as part of this research, is that for hybrid teams, the actual concept of teamwork is more important. They've really recognized that teamwork is a key part of how they get stuff done. [00:06:43] Dan: I was delighted by this finally because it put data behind a hunch or even something I've been saying quite as a fact for a while, which is, you know, this remote working has lowered the water level. I think it'll start to see more things. I think people in offices sort of have the illusion of teamwork very often because you sit around a table, but actually when you're away from each other, it's all revealed that actually some of those things, those conditions were never present, but now it's more visible. [00:07:09] Pia: And I think so. And also the clarity. So hybrid could be that we could see each other three times a week, or we could see each other three times a year. So that's also [00:07:19] Dan: Yeah, [00:07:19] Pia: a big difference set. Yeah. But I think what we tend to do as humans is the situation changes, but we still think we can use an old plan. [00:07:26] Dan: The old tools, yeah. [00:07:27] Pia: And, and then, but, and so when I think of us, we, you know, in these thousand days we've had a pandemic. We've had personal life changes. We've had changes of where we're living. Yeah. Um, as well as the usual undulations of, you know, just Yeah. Living in the glory's fifties and, [00:07:48] Dan: Yeah. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:07:50] Pia: Um, So you have to be, you've gotta be quite intentional and realize that that's not to grumble against the fact that you don't see my mother, but actually embrace it. And that's what makes, I think sometimes those important scores higher, cuz you just have to embrace, it is important. Mm-hmm. and that's what you've gotta do in order to be able to make it work. [00:08:11] Dan: I think so. I think that intentionality is going to come through a lot here and, and also that piece of being part makes people really notice, and I think it's really great. It's coming back to our humanity, which is that we see connections more important. [00:08:27] Juliet: Mm-hmm. Yes, I think so. And actually one of the things that came through in the early research from the students when they were looking at the literature behind this was that of course, virtual teams are, when they're set up, the intention is that they give you the opportunity to create diversity, to tap into a global pool of talent. And of course a lot of the teams that we're looking at now that are virtual or hybrid weren't set up intentionally. They've become hybrid because of the fact of Covid. [00:08:58] Pia: That's right. [00:08:58] Juliet: Lockdowns. [00:08:59] Pia: That's right. [00:08:59] Juliet: So you're not necessarily getting those benefits. And so you've got work a little harder to make hybrid work. Because you, you're not getting the upsides and you need to counter the downsides. [00:09:11] Dan: That's a great point. [00:09:11] Pia: But there's a, and there's a key part of that because if you have to work a little bit hard, We sometimes might do that and feel irritated that we like to work harder. It's, I think it's not even hard. It's different. It's, it's just. [00:09:24] Dan: That's true. Yes. [00:09:26] Pia: So it's a bit like, you know, here I am, you know, in back in England, but, and a Brit living in Aussie and what I used to get, so, you know, How is it? Is it better or worse? Well, no, it's just they're just different. They're just different. [00:09:39] Dan: Yeah. [00:09:39] Pia: They're just different. So I think that's what it is. [00:09:42] Dan: Yeah. [00:09:43] Pia: So work with what is and make that important. [00:09:46] Dan: Yeah. Fantastic. Great start. Great start. What else? What else do we get? Yeah, absolutely. I know we've got cocktails shaking. We've got the old coffee machine going. I'm hoping that our voices overcome that. What have we got next? [00:10:03] Juliet: Okay, so the second finding was that teams have, um, beca that hybrid teams have a tendency to be more task and transactionally focused. Um, which probably isn't a huge surprise when people are located in different places and not seeing each other quite as often. Um, it's very easy to be drawn into that area where I just know what I'm doing and I've gotta get on and do it. But there is obviously a danger that that means that you become task focused at the expense of building relationships or. [00:10:34] Dan: Yeah [00:10:34] Juliet: Taking time to think strategically. [00:10:37] Dan: I think we, we've, you get this sort of backs up our experience. I think, you know, we sometimes use that two by two matrix of, you know, on the one axis you've got, are you task focused or people focused on the other one, Are you transactional or transformational? And the bottom left there is this task, transactional piece and the piece. And it's very easy to get dragged into. In a hybrid environment. [00:11:01] Juliet: And you feel like you're getting things done. [00:11:02] Dan: You are, and and you know, we hear actually all the research says people are productive. [00:11:06] Juliet: Mm-hmm. [00:11:07] Dan: Very productive and they're getting tasks done. And it's obviously a balance cuz that's important. But actually these times are when we need to connect with people and be transformational, because the opportunities are there and we're going through huge change. So it's a question again, intentionality, being deliberate about how we're spending our time, I think. And connecting to the strategic and the people at the same time really it's, It's something we are tempted away from, but it's so important. [00:11:32] Juliet: Yes. [00:11:33] Pia: And I wonder too, whether we've just got a bit of a hangover from thinking that our work is a time based thing. You know, you start at notional nine and eight and finish at six or whenever it is. Yeah. But it's time based. And you can be in an office and waste a whole lot of time to be honest. [00:11:52] Dan: Completely [00:11:52] Pia: we're not making, so we, and yet we still have this guilt complex that if we don't see one another, somehow we have to make up for it. [00:12:00] Dan: Right. [00:12:00] Pia: And by making up for it, it's doubling down on the task. Cause we just do task and we don't do any of the building of relationships. Whereas we are just, we are in denial that this is different. This is different. [00:12:13] Dan: Yeah [00:12:13] Pia: We have to shift to a more open way of working. [00:12:17] Dan: Yes. [00:12:17] Pia: That sort of, you know, really we talk about this, you know what widen the lens and sharpen the focus. It's different. [00:12:24] Dan: Yes. [00:12:25] Pia: So I think we shouldn't have a guilt complex and it's gonna be, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a different way of working. [00:12:30] And the companies that you hear who are asking people to come back into the office. It's very much about knowing where people are and what they're doing, and really that's such an old school way of measuring output. And if they could actually trust people to work at home and get things done and work together, it would be so much more productive. [00:12:48] Dan: I've been amazed that they don't even have the [00:12:51] Juliet: imagination. [00:12:52] Dan: Imagination to pretend that that's not what it's sort of come back in the office so I can watch you. I mean, anyone who thinks also they, you know, that you can't do social loafing in an office that doesn't have, you know, isn't, isn't, isn't using their own imagination. [00:13:05] Pia: We had the biggest unplanned experiment was everyone now goes and works virtually. And oh gosh, what happens if the whole world falls apart? It didn't. Everyone did pretty well. A productivity did not fail. No. So you can never go back. The balance of how has shifted. [00:13:20] Dan: Yeah. [00:13:21] Pia: From employers to employees. [00:13:24] Dan: Yeah. [00:13:24] Pia: That's different. [00:13:25] Dan: Yeah. And definitely [00:13:27] Pia: we've gotta make the value of that. [00:13:28] Dan: I think you're right. There's, there's that huge, there's that change we need to make say, trying to bring the old tools. And of course we've all become, we've all got to where we are by doing certain things, and we have to change a lot of those, which means really making some big changes in ourselves, which is gonna be a challenge. And we're in a transitional state, but. Yeah, it's, it's. [00:13:45] Juliet: And I, and I mean it's, we don't know that these hybrid teams were all face to face before. [00:13:50] Dan: Yeah. [00:13:50] Juliet: We've just done a comparison hybrid and face to face teams. But if we think that quite a lot of those hybrid teams are relatively new, I think what we're seeing is that people immediately went for the task focus, because that was this straightforward, easy, obvious thing to do. [00:14:04] Dan: Yeah. [00:14:05] Juliet: In a, in a crisis situation. But now what we're seeing, as you say, is this is the next reality. Hybrids here to stay. And so now we've got to think about a new set of tools and a new way of thinking. That means that we can be strategic in hybrid context and we can be in relationships. That was keeping us going and this is taking us forward. [00:14:26] Dan: Yeah, it's really interesting just thinking about the work that we are being asked to do at the moment. I think they've fall into two big camps. One is, can you help us to set direction as a team, transformation and can you help us to connect as a team, people. So I do see people moving this direction, starting a new phase. So I think it's very positive. Wonderful. You've got anything else for us? [00:14:47] Juliet: The next insight, um, which won't surprise anybody, is, um, for hybrid teams, the, the technology for, for connecting is just dull we've all heard about Zoom fatigue. It's just dull and it's easy to be distracted. It's quite hard to glance at your phone when you're sitting in an in person meeting, but it's very easy to glance at your phone when you're sitting in Zoom. And so that, that not being together is allowing a huge amount of distraction and that, particularly in the world we live with phones in, you know, so many ways to distract ourselves. That's a real challenge. [00:15:22] Pia: Well, I would agree with that. Uh, the technology's boring. I wouldn't agree with, but if we, if we only had zoom, I would agree with you. [00:15:31] Dan: Yeah. [00:15:31] Pia: So therefore, it's okay. We've got to type all relationships. You've gotta keep the connection fresh, gotta spice it up. Like in any relationship, you know, , you know, 20, 30 years together could be a bit less than exciting. So you gotta gotta keep that. And I think that's, that really applies in a hybrid, hybrid world. And I, I am. Incredibly proud of the way that we put a lot of focus and it doesn't feel hard work. It just feels we have to be a bit creative. [00:16:04] Dan: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I, I think we fall into those traps of that we used to in the office, which is, Oh, we need to impart some information. [00:16:13] Pia: Yeah. [00:16:13] Dan: We'll have a meeting and actually that's not a reason to get people together. You can impart information other ways. Um, so using recording video and sending that to people and having them comment on it is a really great way. The the thing though, I, I think has been really exciting, I'm really proud of is how we've basically figured out to work how to work asynchronously. [00:16:31] Pia: Yeah. [00:16:31] Dan: We use our synchronous time as in those little sliver of time at the end of the day to sort of actually get together and have proper conversations, but, We can do a lot asynchronously. Obviously email, but we've used Marco Polo. [00:16:42] Pia: Yeah. [00:16:42] Dan: A lot to you, which is a video messaging app and many are available, but that's just a really quick way to, for people to see your face talking and for us to actually move decisions forward when the other person's sleeping. [00:16:56] Juliet: Yes. [00:16:56] Dan: I think it's so, and I think, yeah, it's been, it's been great. I think as you say, it's refreshing, it keeps things fresh, but being really clear about what your time together is for. And that is for connecting. [00:17:06] Juliet: Yes. [00:17:07] Pia: And we use it again with the intention of what, what's the messaging we need to impart here? And I think, you know, you and I, Dan, we communicate a lot. [00:17:18] Dan: Yes. [00:17:18] Pia: But it's never on the same channel. So there is a difference. Um, A FaceTime meeting. Yeah. And a Zoom meeting. Because the FaceTime meeting may be a little bit more informal. Yeah. And we've gotta just, And we, It's not, We are just working through something. [00:17:35] Dan: Yeah. [00:17:35] Pia: But if it's because we work across a time zone, which is utterly brutal, really, when we think about it and we cannot shift it, then Marco Polo is that asynchronous to be able to just sit in on each other's musings about something. [00:17:49] Dan: Yeah. [00:17:49] Pia: Which becomes much easier for me to watch why you've done it during your day as I get up the next morning and over a cup of coffee. But the same time, you know, you can text, um, you've introduced, you know, voice, Voice message, voice notes. [00:18:03] Dan: Yeah. Voice notes. [00:18:03] Pia: Yeah. That was a new one. [00:18:05] Dan: That's been great. [00:18:05] Pia: You know, and that's again, so what I find in from a neurological sense, it's there's a, you charge. [00:18:14] Dan: That's interesting. Yeah. I haven't thought of that. We do different, Yeah. It's chopping it down. Yeah. Purpose of the communication. [00:18:20] Pia: And I don't try and psychoanalyze why you've chosen channel from another. Which is good because I know. [00:18:26] Dan: It's no rhyme reason. [00:18:27] Pia: Yeah. But it does. But it's, um, I find that provides a stimulating variety [00:18:34] Dan: Yes. [00:18:35] Pia: That I have to keep, I have to keep on top of and think about and go, Okay. And I, and gets me to fire up different parts of the brain. [00:18:42] Dan: Yeah. No, that's. [00:18:43] Juliet: Well that's very interesting and leads me to my next. [00:18:46] Dan: Oh, fantastic. A segue? You can come back. [00:18:50] Pia: I have another round . [00:18:54] Juliet: So we compared the important scores for hybrid teams and, um, face to face teams and the, the condition that had the biggest gap between the two was learn from failures, no blame. So hybrid teams consider learning to be the most, most important. More than other, more than face to face. [00:19:13] Dan: Yeah. Right. Got it. [00:19:15] Juliet: Um, and I wonder whether that is because moving to hybrid, teams have just had to learn as they go. They've just had to because they were confronted with a situation they weren't expecting. And so as you say, you try different communication methods. You'd say, We're bored with Zoom. Okay, let's try Marco Polo, let's try Miro, let's try whatever. And so, It has made people experiment and try. How do I connect with someone who might be anxious about a sick relative who might be worried about their family. All of these things have been, have made people more open to learning. And I suppose the hope is that that might make people more open to learning in other ways that they work together. And so it won't just be in the practicalities of it, but it might be in the way that they learn and experiment in different ways. [00:20:03] I mean, we do a lot of experiments, for example, when we're building Spotify and new functionality, we're always experimenting and trying to move on, and that's been really helpful for us. And that kind of mindset could expand for teams that have moved into the hybrid world. [00:20:20] Dan: Yeah, I think that's an interesting point actually, just, and I've had to sort of work this through my mind a little bit, but that sort of opportunity to use the disruption to disrupt everything. [00:20:31] Juliet: Yes. [00:20:31] Dan: You know, I, I think that, and we, we can learn to become more experimental in a mindset. Can't we? And I think that you're right. It's very interesting to see that hybrid teams have done that. They've, they've, we hope that they've been able to sort of see that learning's important because how to do learning here, and they just apply that elsewhere and become more experimental. [00:20:50] Juliet: Yes. [00:20:50] Pia: And we're not sort of, let's be honest, we're not the youngest of people. Yes, exactly. [00:20:56] Dan: I'm shocked. [00:20:57] Pia: Um, you know, we were in our fifties. [00:21:00] Dan: Yeah. [00:21:00] Pia: And we've had to make, again, really, we can't just go, This is a bit too hard or this is something the other generation done, and I found that incredibly stimulating. It's like, come on. [00:21:11] Dan: Yeah, [00:21:12] Pia: Let's just try it. There's got, there's so much that is free available. We've condensed down the, the, the, the opportunities to communicate. It just becomes so much easier. Freer, [00:21:25] Dan: Yeah. [00:21:26] Pia: And more creative. And I've, I've found that that's, that's quite liberating. And it also gives the opportunity to have your life, your, your, I don't, I feel less like I'm doing a job. [00:21:39] Dan: Yeah. [00:21:39] Pia: I've got really, we got, you know, we've got tough outcomes for trying to achieve. The pace is absolutely on. [00:21:44] Dan: Yeah. [00:21:45] Pia: But you know, I have to get the ducks in before we do before. [00:21:49] Dan: That's right. I mean, before, you know, you get the ducks in a row. Don't mean literally be in. [00:21:55] Pia: Even before all, all those animals come out and wanna eat them. [00:21:58] Dan: Yeah. [00:21:58] Pia: And, but it's a, you know, but I have kids like you do and there's this, this, this flex [00:22:04] Dan: Yeah. [00:22:05] Pia: In life that means that there is this blend of the two. And that's what for being hybrid means that I am passionately. Living in the place that I love. Yeah. And I am passionately able to do the work that I equally love and happen to be 12,000 miles apart. [00:22:25] Dan: Yeah. No, that's wonderful. And I think we had a conversation about this recently, we talking about the learning that we're, we've both agree we're learning more now than we have or have in. [00:22:33] Pia: Absolutely. [00:22:34] Dan: And uh, and I think. That's been refreshing and it's great working with you cuz you're something new. Something I've read about this, so, But I think that's really important that we find new things. Otherwise you just turned into old gis. [00:22:46] Pia: Yeah. And then. [00:22:48] Juliet: I'm the one who wanted to marry one. [00:22:53] Dan: That you have anything else. What else have you got in your there? [00:22:59] Pia: OK. It's recorded, but I think it's really true. I think that. That is the intentional part. It's a little bit like. [00:23:08] Dan: Yeah. [00:23:08] Pia: The world is changing. We are moving to a, to a way and a future way of working and and we've gotta, we've gotta embrace it. [00:23:18] Dan: Yes. Back to your original point. You can resist this or you can actually, it's, it takes a lot more effort, I think to have the break on than to just let it go and get stuck into it, so. [00:23:30] Juliet: But it's not natural for a lot of people entirely in large organizations where. [00:23:34] Dan: True. [00:23:34] Juliet: You've gone in with a set of rules that are. [00:23:37] Dan: Yeah, that's right. [00:23:39] Juliet: And so I think it's, I think there's a real opportunity with this move to hybrid if it stays . [00:23:44] Dan: Yeah. [00:23:44] Juliet: That people can have a new way of looking at work that they never have before. I think it could be a very exciting evolution of work. [00:23:51] Dan: I think so. Yeah, and. [00:23:52] Pia: A hundred percent. [00:23:53] Dan: And the challenges we mentioned earlier is, people do have, have built their own success. They've got to where they are and it's, it is a big transformation for people to give up what made them successful. Yes. And try something else. So, um, yeah. But an exciting opportunity and we commend it to people. We're still working on it. [00:24:11] Pia: Absolutely. And I think the other part is tend to really enjoy when you're together. [00:24:15] Dan: Yeah. [00:24:15] Pia: And I, I talk a lot in the teams in Spotify about when you are together, make it really count. [00:24:20] Dan: Yes. Yeah. [00:24:20] Pia: Make it really count so that you are intent. Why you're together. What is it that you need to be achieving, but what do you celebrate? How do you communicate? So you're actually more present? [00:24:30] Dan: Yeah. [00:24:30] Pia: I actually don't know how present we really were prior to this, prior to the pandemic. [00:24:36] Dan: Agreed. [00:24:36] Pia: We, we told ourselves a rhetoric that, you know, that, that, that we're busy. And that means, and we're together in the same. [00:24:44] Dan: Yeah. [00:24:44] Pia: Same building. That means we're productive. I, I think that's all been thrown up. [00:24:48] Dan: I hope so. I hope that's all gone. Yes. Very good. [00:24:51] Juliet: Well, which brings me nicely to the final. [00:24:53] Dan: Excellent. [00:24:54] Juliet: Final finding really, which is around communication. And, you know, there's a real, uh, challenge that, that came out of the literature and was supported by our survey, um, findings that, you know, communication in hybrid teams is really difficult. And particularly individuals can feel isolated and communication can be patchy or inconsistent. So some people can know things others don't know, and that, and people can feel left out. And so, To your point Pia, you need to be really intentional in your communications to make sure that you have that kinda transparency. [00:25:28] And I know we as a team have found that using Agile and tools like Trello have really helped us with that transparency, which is everybody knows what everybody doing, and that just gives people a real sense of knowing. [00:25:45] Yeah. [00:25:46] Knowing what's going on and not feeling left out. [00:25:48] Dan: This is a fascinating one for me because time and again when I've been involved in surveys of companies and things, communication always comes up and it, and, and when you talk to people about it, it's actually fomo in a lot of cases. I have communication, but what am I not hearing? What are they hearing over there that I'm not getting? And there's a cost constant doubt that you're actually getting the full picture. And I, and it's interesting, the research said that in this world that is obviously accentuated. [00:26:19] Juliet: Yes. [00:26:19] Dan: Um, but I think there's a, there you say those transparent processes. I mean, Agile Scrum for us has been amazing at that, that we have short pragmatic, you know, planning and retro meetings and in between we actually have all of our tasks really clear to each other. [00:26:36] Juliet: Mm-hmm. [00:26:36] Dan: So I, I don't, you know, no one feels like they don't know what's going on because it's actually all there. So I, I think it's a really good point and not, not, not easy to do, but that can really help, I think you called it radical transparency once. I think it's, I think that really helps with that. It's a very smart answer to that communication. [00:26:54] Juliet: But it just needs a safe place. Radical transparency needs radical safety in a sense. In order to be genuinely transparent about what you've got on your plate, you need to be feel safe and comfortable to share with others, to let others see what you're doing. And so that's a, that's a balance. [00:27:13] Dan: Yeah. [00:27:14] Pia: And I think to, you know, definition of a team is having, having, um, a common goal. [00:27:20] Dan: Yeah. [00:27:21] Pia: And you've gotta, you've gotta make that really clear. Yes. You've gotta know that you are all in the same team and got each other's backs for the, for the same goal. [00:27:30] Dan: Yeah. [00:27:31] Pia: And you know, I, I'm, feel that a thousand percent. I know you hit that cause it's over a hundred percent, that's. [00:27:38] Dan: No knowing you, you can actually do things with a thousand percent I forget you are allowed to say it, no one else can. [00:27:48] Pia: But it does. You know, just to, to have that sense of unified direction of which we know. That we have huge dependency on each other to achieve. [00:28:01] Dan: Yeah. [00:28:02] Pia: You know, we, we are a relatively small team, but we need that. And I think therefore, you, you prize the value of communication. It matters. It matters what we say to one another. It matters how we say that to one another. And sometimes, you know, I, I would find that I have no other human being in my time to talk to, next to. So whilst I'm doing all of the work virtually, I miss that sometimes, the banter. But I would come onto a team call in the evening and it would just be the most joyous experience. [00:28:37] Dan: Yeah, that's great. [00:28:38] Pia: And that level of communication, because it is fully transparent cuz you, you get a sense of being part of the team together. Yeah, and it would always, always has lift. My spirit. I, I feel very lucky to be part of that. [00:28:51] Dan: Yeah, I think so. I feel the same. And, um, I think the other thing I, I think we've really valued is that we do talk, you know, relations as we learn from that feeling, relationships come from emotions. And I think there's a, there's definitely a task conversation, but you, you have to deal with that emotion. And my, I think one of the things I've learned is if I feel it, I'm gonna say, So just check in. Did that land right? Because it's very easy to have misunderstandings across thousands of miles. And I think what I've learned is, oh, that something happened in my gut there. I'm actually gonna check in on that. However, so it's not weird. It might seem, but that's gonna keep things on track and not let things fester, cuz you have to be super intentional about that. I think. Yeah. [00:29:34] Pia: And to be confident to ask each other. Are you okay? Yeah, because I think it was a bit like, um, when we talked to Adam Verducci, you know, from the [00:29:42] Dan: Yeah. [00:29:42] Pia: From the New Jersey, um, police force. And he said, You can hear in the tone. [00:29:47] Dan: Yeah. [00:29:47] Pia: So I can tell when something's going on with you. Something's happened, but it, but it, but it's there. So you just check in. [00:29:55] Dan: Yeah. [00:29:55] Pia: You just check in. It doesn't mean that you have to sort of go find out what it is, but just, is everything alright? Because you can feel it, you get to know each other so well. [00:30:03] Dan: Yeah. [00:30:04] Pia: That. [00:30:04] Dan: Your ability to do that is close to witchcraft, but I, we're all capable of it to some extent. And I think, I think even for the amateur among us, is the ex engineers even is to listen to that voice that saying call, What is that? What is that tightness? What is that cloud that put across their face? What is whatever it is. [00:30:25] Pia: And not to personalize it, not deserve, because we live life. [00:30:28] Dan: Yeah. We have a life, don't we? [00:30:30] Pia: What happens outside? [00:30:31] Dan: Yeah, exactly. [00:30:31] Pia: And that just might need some attention to. And recognition. And then you can then go, Okay, now we, now we can move forward. What we've gotta talk about. [00:30:41] Dan: Yeah. My, the thing I keep noticing, or I kept noticing during the pandemic was, how are you doing? I'm okay. That's, that's an absolute alarm bell. And I think in the old days, Oh good. They're okay. So if I'm really tuned into that now and it's worth the second question. So, um, yeah. [00:30:58] Juliet: And it's, I think this came through a little bit in the research, but it is a little bit of generational thing, too. So generally older people find it a little more difficult to bring their emotions to work. [00:31:09] Dan: Yes. [00:31:10] Juliet: Because that wasn't what was expected. [00:31:12] Dan: Yeah. [00:31:13] Juliet: You know, and I mean, I certainly remember when I was working in investment banking in the nineties, I was invited very clearly to not bring any of my personal life to work. And, and that was part of the role. And so, And yet what we see is that the younger generation are starting in work or in their twenties. [00:31:30] Dan: True. [00:31:30] Juliet: Are much more comfortable about sharing how they feel and the balance of their lives. [00:31:35] Dan: Yeah. [00:31:35] Juliet: And so I think that's another thing that we need to perhaps allow ourselves to learn from the younger generation about, I hate the phrase bringing the whole self to work, but actually genuinely recognizing that there is a person with a life that you're dealing with. [00:31:50] Pia: So I'm gonna ask you, I'm gonna ask each one of us, the question to finish off here then is, so what's the been the best thing about working as a hybrid? Really was a virtual team for you personally over the last thousand days? [00:32:06] Dan: I mean, I've worked remotely from the office since I moved back to the uk, so it's 12 years. I think for me, I would have to say it, it, it's a bit obvious, but I love the flexibility, the work, the integration really that I can have between work and, um, and the other aspects of my life, which sort of all combined together. Um, but I do like the aspects we've talked about today is actually really working on how can we make this, I can't help the old engineer make this efficient, but also meaningful and bring emotion into it. So I've, I've really enjoyed that challenge. [00:32:43] Juliet: For me, I think it's being part of a global team. You know, there's seven of us in the core team and you know, we've got, I, I work very closely with Kimaya in the Philippines and with Philippe in Columbia. [00:32:55] Dan: Yeah. [00:32:56] Juliet: And I can start my day with one end, my day with the other chat with you in Australia. It's just incredible to, you know, sometimes I go up into the mall and think, here I am in York. Working with a global team and all of those different things that that gives me insight into, I was talking to I about a typhoon in her case and talking to Philippe about. [00:33:20] Dan: You're right, [00:33:20] Juliet: Connects, your world is so huge and so interesting, um, so the opportunities for me to work in a team like that is something you couldn't possibly get with working ins. [00:33:33] Dan: It is weird is that you bump into people and you're talking about their working. You have no idea. I've been working with someone, people across the world. [00:33:39] Juliet: 15,000 miles away. [00:33:40] Dan: Yeah. So, Pia, obviously for you it's working with the Hammonds, that number, What's, what's number two terrible. What's number two on? No. [00:33:49] Pia: Well, I think I would, I, I'm very similar to both of you. I, I find it really stimulating. Um, and I, I've enjoyed the challenge. There are challenges. But I've enjoyed leaning into the challenges and embracing it, and I found that really stimulating. And I feel like personally, I've been afforded an opportunity to embrace work in a completely different way and find all these incredible pots of gold. [00:34:20] Dan: Yeah. [00:34:20] Pia: And you know, there will be opportunities for us to travel and to, you know, see each other, but I, Yeah, to me that, that, that opportunity is, Yeah. A real privilege actually. [00:34:32] Dan: Yeah, it's perfect. Wonderful. So, Julia, what did our friends at London School of Economics, how say, how do they summarize where we should be focusing our time? [00:34:42] Juliet: So they had three key areas, um, in their recommendations for hybrid teams to really focus on, and I think we've talked about that. It's really next level skills. Um, so really for hybrid teams it's, it's, everything's harder, but in a sense it's just doing teamwork really well. And here are the three things that they, they identified that are particularly challenging. [00:35:05] Um, one is making sure that you're really building relationships. You talked about that a little bit before that, that actually relationships are the way if you build that solid base and create psychological safety within a team that's really gonna enable you to work better as a team. And there's a whole lot of research to show that strong relationships, um, drive performance. Ironically though we find consistently in the Squadify data set that strong personal connections is the lowest scoring for conditions for importance. So we really still have a mountain decline for teams to understand how important that is for team effectiveness and performance. [00:35:45] Dan: Hmm. [00:35:47] Juliet: The second one is technology. So not just using Zoom, but actually choosing your technology to fit your communication and really changing it so that keep people engaged and avoid distraction. [00:35:59] And then the third is communication. And that's really about making sure that you are incredibly clear, um, and not just in information, but understanding. So making sure that everybody has that shared understanding, coming back to your definition of a team, being a group of people with shared objective, making sure everybody knows what that objective is. [00:36:17] Pia: And I think that's, that would play a big part of information. Understand, don't assume people have clarity. And, and I think when you're in, when, when, And I, I actually would say that ,whether you're in the room next to them. [00:36:28] Dan: Yes. [00:36:29] Pia: In a bar or whether you are doing that across in a virtual virtualized world, don't assume it. It's the, it's where the biggest misunderstandings happen, and where we can fracture. Yeah. And, and become less productive. [00:36:42] Dan: And again, this, this whole experience has made the humble question. Even more important than it was before, I think. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Very powerful. Um, well, oh, Julia, thank you so much for bringing that research to us and your wisdom as usual. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Wonderful. And Pia, it's an absolute joy to see you. I know we talked about remote working and it's. Delightful and amazing and opportunity filled. But to see you in person. [00:37:07] Pia: Break bread with you and delight and drink elderflower presse has been a wonder, wonder. [00:37:13] Dan: It's the rock and roll lifestyle, um, over here, that's for sure. But, uh, thank you both, uh, for, for that wonderful, wonderful session. [00:37:22] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net, just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show as we have, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. Also, please do give us a rating on your favorite podcast platform. You can also contribute to the show by leaving a voice note with a question or a comment. Just find the link in the show notes. We'd love to hear your experiences of hybrid working. We, Not Me, is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me. [00:37:53] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.