Ep. 504 – The Green Way Outdoors: From Car Salesman to Conservationist

In this episode of the Ducks Unlimited podcast, host John Gordon interviews Kyle Green, the host and executive producer of The Green Way Outdoors podcast. Kyle shares his excitement about an upcoming one-minute conservation segment about Ducks Unlimited that will be airing on A&E and History Channel, showcasing how DU is making a difference in his hometown. He also discusses his journey in the outdoor industry and his goal of reaching new audiences.

www.ducks.org/DUPodcast

www.thegreenwayoutdoors.com

Creators & Guests

Writer

John Gordon

DUPodcast Contributor

What is Ducks Unlimited Podcast?

Ducks Unlimited Podcast is a constant discussion of all things waterfowl; from in-depth hunting tips and tactics, to waterfowl biology, research, science, and habitat updates. The DU Podcast is the go-to resource for waterfowl hunters and conservationists. Ducks Unlimited is the world's leader in wetlands conservation.

00:00 John Gordon Hello everybody and welcome again to the Ducks Unlimited podcast. I'm your host, John Gordon. And when I first heard about an opportunity for this particular podcast, I got really excited about it because it's kind of a crossover. I've never talked to somebody and interviewed somebody who also is a podcast host on their own. And so it's a pretty unique opportunity and I'm really excited about it. So let's welcome Kyle Green to the D-U Podcast. Hi there.

00:31 Kyle Green How are you? Man, how are you doing Kyle? I'm doing fantastic. I am in work mode 2.0 right now, but we just got done editing an awesome video for Ducks Unlimited. So I'm kind of on a little bit of a high right now because we did this one minute PSA. It's going to be airing next week 30 times on A&E and History Channel, teaching people the area where I grew up duck hunting and how Ducks Unlimited is impacting and helping

00:57 John Gordon that area. I saw that PSA and it was very well done, very informative. And like I said, you're from the Michigan area, correct? Yes sir, yes sir. And for folks who don't know who Kyle Green is, he's the host and executive producer of the Greenway Outdoors, also the Greenway Outdoors podcast, which is Greenway Outdoors taking a big step forward.

01:17 Kyle Green Kyle, you're about to be on the History Channel. Yeah, it's a culmination of eight years of hard work with the same team that's been with me since day one, grinding and grinding. And we started out on local channels and Pursuit Channel and Sportsman Channel and that sort of thing. But our goal is and will always be to try and get outside of the industry to bring new people in. As you guys know, 60% of our hunters and fishermen that are buying hunting and fishing licenses and of course Ducks Unlimited memberships, 60% of them are 55 or older white males. And in 10 to 15 years time, they're not going to be buying as many or any licenses anymore. And we have to figure out how to build back, get people in to fill that 60% with Millennials and Generation Z. So we've been working for eight years to try and build content that Millennials and Generation Z would appreciate the most. And given the fact that it's taken this long is kind of because as the audience is shifting, as the growth is shifting, so is our content. So now we finally get to go to the big network. We get to go to History Channel, be in front of millions of people that maybe are interested in the outdoors. We're right next to the show Mountain Men and Swamp People, shows that people know that are kind of interested in outdoor stuff. But maybe have never picked up a gun before or gone hunting before or joined Ducks Unlimited before and now we can plant the seed of conservation messaging with them. So it's been eight years. It's been the same team with me since day one. But the fact that we're finally here, it just feels like such a blessing.

02:44 John Gordon Yeah, I can say it's just big congratulations. It is a big thing for the outdoor industry, outdoor lifestyle programming. You've had the meat eater people cross over into more mainstream. Now y'all are on the History Channel. I produce Ducks Unlimited television and our D.U. Nation series on YouTube, which is really aimed at the same demographic. We're trying to reach the younger audience who's not necessarily a waterfowl hunter or conservationist, really showing them that Ducks Unlimited is what we do is just a lot more about just that and clean water and wetlands are extremely important for all kinds of wildlife and people too.

03:23 Kyle Green Yeah, and it's a tough nut to crack, right? Historically outdoor content has just been kill shot shows, low production quality with GoPros and you know, it just people got a bad taste in their mouth for years and kind of stayed away from the industry. And I really like your guys' content. I really do. Waterfowling out of everything. I've traveled the world, done everything. Duck hunting is my absolute favorite and I don't just say that it really, I say it over and over again in podcasts, interviews and everything like that. They're like, oh out of everything you do, what's your favorite? You know, I like it more than Hunt and Access Deer in Hawaii. I like it more than Moose in Maine. I like it more than everything, but I like the way your guys' content is produced and I like obviously the Ducks Unlimited messaging and you guys have one of the most recognized logos, AMR, which is also super beneficial to you guys. But yeah, it's reaching that younger audience. They want to see things different. They like short form content, but they also like high production quality. If you're going to hold the attention of millennials and Generation Z, your production quality needs to be extremely high and you've got to be telling a story that they can tie to. And also I do believe that the cooking aspect of our show is probably the most popular. It's my least favorite to film. It's my favorite to eat, my least favorite to film, but I think that that cooking aspect is also very important too. But I do really like your guys' content. I think we're actually going to be working together on an episode for season two as well on our end and with you guys.

04:42 John Gordon Yeah, yeah. I would love to do some work with y'all. I think it'd be fantastic. We're trying to send out the same message, right? And the conservation of the outdoors, it's so important for everyone that lives in North America and around the world. If nobody's conserving our natural resources, it's just all going to fall apart. So we both have the same goals, so it'd be great to work with y'all.

05:10 Kyle Green Yeah. And I mean, like I said, I've grown up just loving Ducks Unlimited, going to the D.U. dinners, hoping to win prizes. All those sorts of things are always a fun thing to do as a kid. And duck hunting is like, I really cut my teeth in. I grew up hunting Harsens Island, which is in Michigan here. It's one of the managed waterfall areas. And I love the managed waterfall areas because they kind of solve a duck hunter's biggest issue. Aside from affording the gear and getting the stuff, I think a duck hunter's biggest issue is like, well, where do I go? And the managed waterfall areas really, really, really fix that. I was just giving a seminar at Bass Pro Shop in Auburn Hills, not this past Saturday, but the Saturday before. And it was actually on waterfall conservation because a lot of people still don't understand what that word means when you say conservation. And I like to use the snow geese as an example. As I talk about, number one, I would like to say this. I believe that migration is built into birds because of God. I believe that was intelligent design. I feel like it was on purpose because if God didn't program birds to migrate, then all the people would have to be condensed into one landscape. We're talking over the last 10,000 years. They would have to be condensed into one area, and then they would overhunt that area and probably wipe out the bird populations. But people being able to spread out across the country and birds migrating across the top of them at different times of year gave everybody some, gave everybody enough, but would protect the species from ever going extinct because they could be over harvested if they just stayed in one area all the time. So I always like to make that point that I think that there's no way that was an accident. But that said, you look at the snow geese. So the snow geese go the same areas every single year to breed, and they go the same area every single year to ride out the winters. So they migrate north and south, and the numbers have gotten really big. They're going to go to the same areas every single year, all of them, and they're all going to go there. And if we don't harvest the surplus to make room for next year's babies, what happens is there's not enough food for all of them in their wintering grounds or in their breeding grounds. And a lot of people think like, oh, then a few of them will die off and it won't be a big deal. But it isn't that some eat enough and then others don't. It's that none of them don't get quite enough. And if that happens, we could have an absolute population bust. So we have this giant, robust population of snow geese, and they could be gone inside of a year or two because of a population bust. So it's up to hunters to harvest as many as possible. You get that message to someone, a soccer mom that's never heard that before, and it's like there's so many of them. Why do you got to kill them? Do you even eat them? That's mean. And you talk to them and you say, listen, if we don't hunt them even one year or two years, they could all go away. And it's not that long ago in the 60s. Now there's Canada geese everywhere in Michigan, but in 1960s, it was like rare to see any. So that could happen at any time. So I like to teach people about that as like Ducks Unlimited is so focused on making sure that the ecosystems are correct, that the marsh areas are covered, that we own these properties, that they're maintained, that they're protected so that the room is there. And then it's up to the hunters to make sure we're doing the harvesting. And it's up to the Department of Natural Resources who we have to hold accountable. You cannot let them just go rampant because you have to hold them accountable. Because it takes all three of us to make sure that the duck numbers and the geese numbers continue to grow. But the snow geese is a perfect example of at any given year, we're a year or two away

08:34 John Gordon from them just being gone. That's a very good point. And it's right. And the snow goose is kind of near and dear to my heart. I've been hunting snows. Wow. Let's see. I think my first snow hunt was 1981, somewhere in that range. I'm dating myself here. But I got transplanted to Houston, Texas when I was a kid. And I've said this on this podcast before. I've had guys on from Houston area where I grew up at talking about the snow goose and how we watched the population grow so much over the last 20 to 30 years. It's a conservation success story on its own. But you're right. Without hunters keeping that population more in check, they could really, like you say, have a major collapse at some point.

09:21 Kyle Green Exactly. Exactly. And it's something that we have to be scared of. And that's why they've taken… I just saw at… I was at Bass Pro Shop the other day and they had this gun set up for snow goose hunting and it had the big extended bottom there so you could hold like 19 shells in it at a time. And people may think this or think that about them. Why do you need to kill so many of them? First of all, they're not bad eating. I want you to verify that with me. Do you mind them or no? I love them, actually. Yeah. I don't think they taste all that different than any other goose or duck. I really don't.

09:54 John Gordon They don't. And I've talked about this with some of my fellow guys from back in the day in Texas. How in the world did that perception come about? The word sky carp makes me very upset. And I've heard that used for snow for years and it's like people are like, oh, you don't eat those things, do you? And I don't know where it started. I don't know who started it. Because we always held them in very high esteem because the snow goose is a very worthy adversary. They are difficult to hunt. The adult population has gotten so old at this point. You're talking about birds that have been up and down flyways 15 years. They've seen it all and not easily fooled. So if you can harvest those birds on their terms, it's quite an achievement. So we always held it that way. We always held those birds in really high esteem. So it makes us all upset that people think that they're no good as table fare. So that aspect of the hunting side of it is irrelevant. And I don't know how it happened to you. They think the speckle belly is like the greatest thing of all time. And you can pretty much cook them side by side.

10:57 Kyle Green And I really cannot tell the difference on them. Yeah, I've actually, a speckle belly is one bird I've never actually harvested. I've always kind of wanted to because they play them up to be these big, buttery, amazing tasting birds. But I mean, I like snow geese. We don't have them here in Michigan. There's always one guy at the man's waterfowl area that gets in trouble shooting a swan thinking it's a snow geese. But you rarely see them here. There's very few that get harvested here. It's mostly Canada goose. But I've got two nieces that are younger. I think they're 9 and 11 now or 9 and 12. And their favorite food is Canada goose. And it's funny because they go to school and tell kids that their favorite food is goose. So they take it in for lunch. They're homeschooled now after the whole COVID debacle. But before that, they were big fans of eating goose and people just thinking it's so weird that they, but they grew up having it. So they know how good it is. They went in with an honest try. But you think I always tell to the Christmas story, the Christmas goose, the big beautiful goose that they had that Scrooge got. It's a fantastic meat. But I think snow geese get a bad rep too.

12:08 John Gordon I thought they were pretty good. If you want to hunt some speck-o-bellies, man, we can make that happen. I've got a spot in Arkansas that literally thousands of specks come through there on a daily basis. So we can make that happen.

12:22 Kyle Green I'm going to grab the Boss Shot Shells bus and we're all going to jump on board and come on down. I'll bring the shells.

12:28 John Gordon Okay. That sounds good, man. That's right. Being in Michigan, I'm sure you probably got a relationship with the folks over there at

12:36 Kyle Green Boss. Oh, they're amazing people. Number one, they're like a family. They haven't been around that long. I think they got started in 2018. But their product is superior. I got to go there and Brandon, the guy that started the whole thing, he walked me through the process on how they make the shells. And one of the most fun, I mean, one of the best afternoons we had was taking a box of a bunch of competitor shells and we were feeding them through. And basically they've got two lasers set up in this tube and it shows basically when the pellets cross one and they cross the second, that tells you the exact speed of how fast they're going. And the Boss shells were so consistent. They were within five feet per second each. And then we were running all the other brands and they were hundreds of feet per second off. So from that consistency standpoint and their new wadding that they put, I'm very passionate about that. I'm a nerd when it comes to shotgun shells. So you just opened up a can of worms. And on top of that, they have the new Warchief shells with the buffering in them. And what happens is we're doing all these tests in the field. I told you I'm a complete nerd. And we're doing this test in the field where you're shooting gel blocks, almost none of the other shotgun shells, all the other competitor brands, the back one third of their shot string wasn't even penetrating the gel. And that's because the gunpowder that's used and all the other brands is deforming all of the back one third of the shot strands. So the pellets are just getting the gel block and falling off. And the problem is if you're a subpar shooter like myself, you always end up hitting the birds with the back of your shot string. You know what I mean? And you need those pellets to be effective. And what was interesting about Bosses, with their density being basically what lead is, you're able to use any choke tube you want, but all of the shot was going through the gel block, all of it, because the buffering is keeping that back strand from getting deformed. And seeing that and how they get copper to stick the bismuth, it's just in those new worksheet flows. I'm passionate about it because they really, really, really are the best. And the fact that they're in Michigan here is great, but they're like the nicest people. And I like their direct to consumer approach because somebody might look at their box of shells and think they're more expensive. But if you compare it to any competitors that are even using anything like what they are, as far as the actual ingredients go in making the shells, they're cheaper than everybody. So I'm a big fan if you can tell.

14:55 John Gordon I can tell. I've interviewed Brandon before. I do some writing as well. And Brandon's a genius. He's a ballast, you know, a ballastician and he really has dived deeply into what makes a shot shell tick. And it's, he's made a really, really strong product. You know, there's the proofs in the pudding. It's interesting that nobody buffering when I was a kid, so I grew up hunting, you know, I first started hunting ducks in late seventies. So when I was a kid, the buffering thing was a big deal. And then all of a sudden it just seemed like it disappeared forever. And now it's finally somebody has brought it back to the forefront that buffering is a really good way to improve your patterns. And like you said, keep that backside of the pattern uniform and in good shape and not deformed. And that is a huge part of really a clean harvest on a bird.

15:43 Kyle Green And I think that's what a shot shell should be all about. You know what I like most about Boss actually is we use different powders than everyone else for gun powders in our shells. So what's happening is when you're using other brands in the field and you've patterned your guns and you've gone through all the processing, you know the speeds and all that stuff for your gun, when you get them cold, those gun powders react differently because of the way, the choices that they make as far as cutting costs and stuff. With Boss, you're getting the same speeds and the same consistency out of it. I'm not good enough to have variables added to my plate. Okay? I need consistency. So that is what I like about Boss. I went and shot some sporting clays this weekend and I shot 40 out of 50, so I did pretty good there, but it was a tough course too. The ones that I didn't hit, I don't think I'm ever going to get there.

16:32 John Gordon I feel good about the season coming up. Well that's great, man. We got off on a little bit of a shot shell rabbit hole there. Yeah, we did. I'm a shotgun nut too, Kyle. So like you said, we're kindred spirits, man. We can sit here and talk about shotguns and shooting and dogs and everything else all day, I'm sure. So anyway, I want to kind of go back in time a minute because according to your website, you really began your career as a fitness consultant for a medical show.

16:56 Kyle Green So how did you go from there to here? Yeah, so it was pretty interesting. When I grew up, my first job was being a porter and then I sold cars and I kind of saved up all my money over a four or five year period and I made quite a bit in that time. I ended up becoming like the internet manager and that sort of thing in a dealership, but I decided I still wanted to go to school and get an education in physical training. To be honest with you though, it's not like a four year program, it's one of those one year programs so I would never want to brag about that actual certification. But I went there just simply because I wanted to know more about fitness and health and training and I was obsessed with going to the gym and I just wanted to get better. So I did that and right after I graduated, I heard about this new medical talk show and it was local in Michigan at the time and my girlfriend's mom at the time was like, you should go try out for that, they're looking for a personal trainer for it. So I did and I went in there and I saw the lights and the cameras and the television and I was like, I want to do this. So I ended up, I asked them for a job and they said we didn't have any paying positions so I worked for free and then I was there for about, within six months I think, I was nominated for three Emmys and was vice president of the company. Working for free running coffee to that in a six month period. So I worked my way up, I just relentlessly worked and helped build up that show to what it is today. It's called Ask Dr. Nandy. You can still see it on a bunch of different platforms. I'm not sure the channels now but I left there wanting to really follow my original passion which was hunting and fishing and I identified that problem that 60% of hunting and fishing licenses sold to white males at the age of 55. I knew if we didn't correct that, then my future kids and grandkids and stuff probably wouldn't be able to hunt. So I was like, I'm going to take what I know about the television industry. I'm going to build my own show. I got all my best friends together. We dumped all of our money into it and went for it and then lost all our money and lost big time, got beat up bad, had a terrible first four years just getting our butts kicked, wasting all our money, went from having a lot of money to no money fast. Basically lost everything and just kept trucking away, trucking away, trucking away and the team, like I said, this will probably be the fourth time on this call I've said it, but same team with me since day one and we just gritted through it and we just woke up every day, how can we improve? How can we get better? How can we be the best? And how can we make sure our production quality is so good that the big networks can't ignore us? And up until recently, we hadn't really reached that goal but now we have and we have great

19:31 John Gordon partners like Boss and others that have helped take us to that level. Great story and a great point. You can just go through so many success stories throughout time and it's like, man, the underlying theme is we went through some bad times and we never gave up. And that's called the story of Ducks Unlimited too in a lot of ways. You start out as a fledgling organization in the 1930s and just persevered, 87 years later still going strong. So it's a very, very important thing for people to learn that you just, if you've got a dream,

20:07 Kyle Green pursue it and keep after it and don't let the ups and downs get you because they will. We were talking about it this morning too. We just had our big premiere party in Auburn Hills at Bass Pro Shop and we had hundreds of people come by. It was a beautiful event and it was really exciting. We had Wild Game and the AMC Theaters here in Michigan were showing the Greenway Outdoors on the big screen for the History Channel release. We're all talking about it though and I couldn't have seen in year four how in year eight I would get the History Channel, but I always knew I could take one more step. And I always knew I could just take that one more step and keep the team involved and believing that it would happen. And I use the analogy in a video that we made for that night was the four leaf clovers. So my dad was really, really good at finding four leaf clovers when I was a kid. We would go up to Calcaska, Michigan every year for family vacation and he'd always be like in the yard looking for four leaf clovers and he'd find them. And he always told me that you had to look for right angles because the four leaf clovers make a square. So if you look for right angles, you'll end up finding them. So I got pretty good at it and the moral of the story was like you would never find the four leaf clover until you were very sure you could find one, that one was there. So you had to believe it was there before it actually was and then you had to look for the right angles. And that's kind of been, we had to believe that we would get here even though we couldn't see the path to get there. You just keep taking one more step and that's for anybody in life.

21:35 John Gordon Yeah, that's a very good point and a good place to take a break, folks. So we're going to take a little break in the DU Podcast and stay tuned. Welcome back, everybody to the Ducks Unlimited Podcast. My guest today is Kyle Green. He's host and executive producer of the Greenway Outdoors Television Show and you also do a podcast as well. Kyle, tell folks a little bit about your podcast.

22:17 Kyle Green Yes. So the podcast is hosted by the core four of the group. You've got our director, our producer, and then myself and then my other host of the television show, Jeffrey. He's been my best friend since we were five years old. And basically we talk about all the current events, everything going on, hunting, fishing related sometimes. And then really it's kind of the behind the scenes of the adventures that we go on. We produce about 15 episodes of our television show a year, 52 video podcasts, 24 how-to videos and six online series episodes as well, which is kind of that short form format similar to what you guys do on YouTube. So it's kind of the behind the scenes and what goes into all that as well as the guests that are on all those shows. We bring them on the podcast to learn more about them and their backstory and that sort of thing too. And had some fun guests on Greener Smith, Ted Nugent, some crazy ones too. So it's a good time.

23:05 John Gordon It's a good time. Yeah. I've done the same thing with the DU Nation series and this podcast. I've done a lot of the podcast with folks who have been on it just because there's some interesting characters. It's amazing in the outdoors, the people you run across and their different backgrounds and how interesting a lot of those folks are.

23:24 Kyle Green And it's just, I think the podcast in conjunction with the television show is a great tool. Absolutely. Yeah. It's you can only accomplish so much in a half hour show. And like a lot of times we find one of the episodes we did, actually it's the premiere episode that'll air Saturday, September 2nd on History and then History streaming afterwards. It's a bison episode and there was so many angles to this episode. There was no way we could accomplish it all just in the actual show itself. And one of the big pieces of it is that the buffalo or bison didn't get down to 45 bison were left in the United States of America. That wasn't because of white guys killing them and Native Americans killing them. It was because of disease. And the idea of my goal was that people needed to know that because the narrative has been dances with wolves forever, right? And not to say that that didn't happen and it was terrible and tragic and that there wasn't bounties put on bison and that we our goal wasn't the white man's goal wasn't to get rid of the bison in order to hurt the Native Americans and put them on welfare. All that happened. But the main reason what killed the most animals was disease. There's a disease called malignant Cotaro fever, which is from sheep and a sheep will have a fever for like a day or two and then it'll be fine. But if a bison gets it, he'll die so fast that he can't even spread it to other bison normally within 24 hours. So they're very, they're very prone to getting disease. Now we cover that a little bit the show, but how are you going to do that in a half hour and do the hunt and everything else too? So that's kind of what the podcast is for us to dive deeper into those stories and teach people what's really going on. And you have to be able to identify the problem with opinion free in order to solve it.

25:06 John Gordon Excellent point. Excellent point. And it is it is bison folks out there. It's not buffalo. People get that wrong all the time. It's funny. I think the buffalo species are mainly in Africa and Asia. And it's the American bison, a fascinating animal and such a big part of US history, you know, without those animals, you know, a lot of pioneer families could not have survived, could not have really moved, expanded westward, you know, without those as a food source. It's interesting. My grandfather had a really, he was kind of a visionary guy. He had an idea that he was going to produce beefalos. He was a rancher in Mississippi and brought in, I think it was, he got them from Montana. I think they're 50 or 60 head. And my mother tells me the stories about that there's cattle and then there's bison and how aggressive that those things are. And the fact that you did not want to tangle with them because they were coming at you. And so don't don't get them confused. But what happened with that was just once again, climate disease and everything. It was just too hot down here, you know, in the south for those bison to really survive and thrive. And they just the old, you know, I think all of them ended up expiring before it was all over with. But that's, that's, that's another story. But there's all kinds of stories like that out there of folks in the outdoors. Speaking of my grandfather, we'll go back to shotguns for a little bit. And this was a, this was a, this was a podcast. I looked at it and the title of it caught my attention because my grandfather was a big time quail hunter, you know, back when the Bob white quail here in the south and the state of Mississippi, especially they were prolific. And of course, you know, over the years, farming practices, different things have happened in the south as, as lost most of their quail. But my grandfather was a, was a wing shooter. He never was a big game hunter at all. But his favorite gauge was the 28 and you had a podcast called the 28 gauger. And I was pretty intrigued by that. I said, okay, I got, I've got a lot to say about the 28 gauge because, but my grandfather wasn't one of those guys, right? He wasn't, you know, trying to say, oh man, he just, he just really liked, you know, like quick shotguns for Bob whites. And so he just kind of fell in love with that. So you know, and I get what you were saying about it, but I don't, man, I'm such a fan of all the way through all the, you know, I've got 10s, 12, 16, 20s, 28, but tell, tell

27:32 Kyle Green us a little about the 28 gauger. Yeah, that's the, I'm as red as can be right now. I'm blushing. So, okay. So the premise was this in the hunting and fishing industry, I say that there's two types of people and there's one type of person in the outdoor industry, which I'd like to think is a lot of them. And I'd like to think they're the bigger portion. It's the nice people that will do anything for you. They're the people that will invite you out to shoot speckled bellies in Arkansas. They're the people that will go out of their way to, to lend someone a hand or give advice and help them in any sort of way. And then there's the other type, which you often run into when you go into an archery shop or you go into a gun shop and you don't know everything. So you're an idiot and they treat you stupid and they, they talk down to you and they belittle you and they're secretive and they don't want people in the industry and they want to keep people out of the industry and they want to hog it and that sort of thing. That there's that other group and something we've noticed with a lot of them is, and we're in, we're in Maine hunting moose and this guy was like, you don't need anything bigger than a 243 to hunt moose. And I'm like, that's a irresponsible caliber choice. It's just like a stupid thing to say. It's a dumb thing to say. And the problem and, and we were explaining it to a guy, Chuck, that we were with. We're like, yeah, there's like, you ever noticed like that group of people that always talk down to everyone, they have like this ego based around using the most minimal amount of equipment possible to the point where it's irresponsible and stupid. And I said, it's, you know, it's like the person that's like, oh, you're hunting pheasant. If you're using anything more than a 28 gauge, you're just ruining them. And so, and like people kept bringing up, you don't need anything more than a 28 gauge. You don't need anything more than 28 gauge. And like with Bloss shot shells, you can get away with it. But I was like, I use a 12. I have a 16 and I have a 20 and I have a 12. Those are the three that I use. But we noticed that it was like the type of person that was always using the minimal thing always had to bring up using the 28 gauge. So we just started calling those people that are so obsessed with using minimal equipment because there's so much better than you'll ever be. And you're so stupid for using a 12 gauge and you're an awful person. Those people that say stuff like that, we call 28 gauges. I got you. I got you. Most duck hunters don't, which is good.

29:41 John Gordon So I think we'll be okay on this podcast. But that's a good point. Just from a conservation angle. I think that, you know, really knowing and learning how to shoot the equipment you use, dogs are a huge part. They're a big part of conservation as well. Conserving game. It's really a good point. And yeah, the minimalist guys, there are definitely a segment of the outdoor population is like that. I mean, I just, I haven't really run across many of them lately, but I think, I think where you are up in that part of the world, I think you may have some few more because you've got more upland game hunting going on. We almost lost it down here, Kyle. We just don't, we don't have pheasants. The Bob whites are gone. There's no grouse. I mean, I guess maybe East Tennessee may have a few something like that left, but it's 12 gauge world down here, you know, cause it's mainly all duck and goose hunting in the deep South these days, turkeys as well. And so that it's really, we don't run across that kind of sportsman very often, but you

30:44 Kyle Green know, we got them, we got them in boatloads walking. And I just, I despise it because I remember being that little kid that walked in the store, you know, at 16 years old and I was trying to figure stuff out and people talking down to you and being rude or arrogant. And then you meet the one nice guy that goes out of his way to help you and you never forget it.

31:03 John Gordon And I just always wanted to make sure I was that guy. Yeah, yeah. Great point. I mean, I can remember it's almost just kind of a shift away to this. The sub gauges, I guess the 28, 24, 10 have become, have become a big deal lately, but I can remember when I was a kid, boy, it was, man, all kids wanted to make that step up to a 12 gauge. That was a big deal, right? I mean, it was like, man, can't wait to get a 12 gauge. It was kind of like a rite of passage.

31:28 Kyle Green I think COVID too really upped the interest in sub gauges because the 12 gauge and 20 gauge was all sold out. And the only thing left on the shelves was your 16s and your 28s and your four 10s. And then people were like, well, okay, I'll get one or, you know, that sort of thing. We work with Savage for our guns. And I just, what I like about Savage is they have a gun in the price range for everybody. So you can buy your really expensive ones, you can buy your less expensive ones, but the quality is always good. And a lot of the companies use Savage barrels in general anyway, so their barrels are really, really high quality and I'm a big fan. But they just came out with their 555, which is their over and under. They've got a 16 gauge and that's going to be my go-to Upland gun this year is that 16 gauge and Boss makes shells for it. So it kind of worked out perfect. But I think that's the perfect, in the middle, it's not overkill like the 12 for Upland, but it's not underkill with the 20 because sometimes in Michigan for the first month or so of the season, everything's so green and thick that you want that a little bit

32:35 John Gordon more huspa than a 20 gauge a lot of times. Yeah, I'm a big 16 gauge fan. You brought it up once again, Kendra Spirits, man. I have a Stevens 555E 16 gauge over and under. Yeah, you know the gun. And I actually, I used it on DU Nation last year as a teal hunting episode we did down in Texas. Wonderful. And it was, and I was shooting Boss ammo through it. Boss number sevens, man.

33:02 Kyle Green That number seven for teal, yeah, it's pretty devastating. And for those of you who don't know, when you hear number sevens, a lot of people are like, number sevens? What's this wild man doing? You have to understand it's not steel shot. So because the density is so much greater, the sevens would be more like fives or fours as far as like knockdown power goes. So you got to keep that in mind too. And there's a community going on right now that people are convinced you can shoot everything

33:28 John Gordon with Boss number sevens and that's the only box of ammo you need. What do you need? Number seven. Okay, that's a good t-shirt right there. So the show's coming out on the History Channel.

33:41 Kyle Green Give us a little preview of some of the episodes you got coming out this year. Yeah, so I told you a little bit about the bison one. Every episode's about a specific tactic for a specific species being hunting or fishing and it works out to be about 50-50 between hunting and fishing. The goal is to basically educate people on a conservation message that's happening with each one. So we did a turkey episode with the National Wild Turkey Federation and we kind of we did a controlled burn so they trusted me with matches, which is crazy. But we did a small forest fire in order to talk about creating new habitat and that sort of thing. And then we did turkey hunts in South Carolina, which is where a lot of the source birds went when they planted them all over the rest of the United States when the turkey was almost extinct everywhere else. So those birds are real smart, just a heads up. I wouldn't go there, but go to the descendants of the dumb ones that got trapped in moose. That's the ones that you want to go after. But we did that. We went to Maine and in Maine, this was super interesting, we did a moose episode and we went to this area, 1,600 square miles, which is like more than you can imagine, of land owned by a paper company that's managed by their Department of Natural Resources there. And basically what's happening is 80% of all moose calves are dying of blood loss from ticks. So think about how much blood loss would have to come out of a moose in order for ticks to kill them. So you're talking tens of thousands of ticks getting on each animal and killing them. 80% are dying right now. And the problem is they've tried everything. So they actually have to go in and it's species specific, the ticks. So they have to go in and kind of wipe out all the moose, let it settle down for two or three years, let the ticks die off and then reintroduce moose. So we're there for that. And it's very strange because they want you to shoot calves and cows mainly and then you could shoot a bull if you see it. It's very strange to be in that environment because we ended up getting a cow in the episode, I can say that. A big one actually, the biggest one shot, we're a few weeks or months into the season, we actually shot the biggest cow that year so far in the state. And I don't know if it ended up being number one still or not, but it was very big cow. But she had a calf with her and it was just very hard emotionally to figure, like everything in me was saying, don't shoot, don't shoot, don't shoot, but you have to. And if you let them go, you're prolonging the problem with the ticks and you're killing off other moose by not killing them. But it was just strange. And then once we got the cow, we told other people and then they were going after, they're like, where was the calf? Where was the calf? I was like, geez, we put that poor thing in the Hunger Games. The numbers are, I'm sorry, it's a little dark, but it's true. But the whole goal is like they have to wipe them all out and then reintroduce moose after the ticks die. And if we don't solve this problem quick, those ticks, right now it's species specific, but they might get creative if we give them time to continue to evolve and figure things out and start getting on deer and that sort of thing too. So we have to do it quickly and you're saving future populations by doing it. So that was really strange. So we really try and get into deep conservation messaging. We went to the Everglades and we hunted pythons. There's quarter million pythons right now in the Everglades. They're completely destroying everything. 99% of every animal with fur is gone. And for a while, two species per week were going extinct. And the only reason why it's gone down to one or zero per week right now is because we're running out. The Everglades are dead. The Everglades are gone. There's nothing with fur anymore and nobody knows it. Nobody's talking about it. It's like you see on the news like, oh, the python people are going out and getting pythons. How cool and fun. We have to stop this invasive. No, they've decimated everything and they need to change the laws there so more people can access the Everglades National Park and wipe them out because everything's gone. They need to go in and blast those things. But we weren't even allowed to use guns because we're in the Everglades National Park. We had to catch them by hand. Do you want to go catch a python, a 15 foot python that can kill you by hand? Meanwhile, there's only like eight people that have access to the Everglades National Park. We're also sounding the alarm on stupid things like that to try and get more people involved to try and change the narrative and use common sense when it comes to conservation. So that's another. So we're hunting moose. We're hunting pythons. We're fishing for, we went up to remote Idaho and we ice fish remote lakes and the conservation story there is the cutthroat trout, the Yellowstone cutthroat. They're taking them out of the rivers and stocking them in these remote fishless lakes to get the DNA spread out so that if the river gets knocked out, the species isn't gone. We're talking near the South Fork and that sort of thing. A lot of people know the Snake River. So we went to all these remote lakes where they did all these stockings and we traveled there by snowmobile 40 miles into the mountains in order to get there and see if the fish stocking had worked so that they can advertise it to locals who are trying to get away from the tourists on the river. This upcoming spring season. So that was really fun and just everything's a conservation message. High energy, high octane, high adventure, crazy, cool environments, just getting out there and getting after it.

38:50 John Gordon Man, sounds like a show I'm going to have to watch for sure. I hope. Like I said, as being a storyteller too, I love the fact that y'all are really diving deep into issues that are problems. Man, the tick. And once again, it may be ticks and roaches left after the nuclear war, right? Those things are the most resilient thing. And you brought up control burning. That's a huge aspect of conservation that people have really forgotten about. The fact that Mother Nature used to control a lot of that. There were wildfires, would clean out underbrush, clean out all and really improve the health of forests and really control things like ticks and other insects. And man, now you're controlling the fire in most places and so it's not allowed to happen. So you've seen species like ticks really explode.

39:38 Kyle Green What baffled me was what we learned from the scientists was they couldn't believe going into the research, they wouldn't have anticipated this, how many fires are caused by lightning strikes. But now when a fire happens, like you said it, we put it out. You know, a fire happens, we put it out right away. So all these burns that would have happened aren't happening. And that was kind of, I question everything. I trust nothing. I have to get to the bottom of it. And when we were looking at the turkey and we're talking about the controlled burns, I'm like, there is turkeys here long before we were doing controlled burns. So what's the deal? And then working with the NWTF, we discovered, we're like, oh, okay. So there was all these lightning strikes causing all these fires. Now that doesn't exist because we put them out when it starts. And on top of that, we have all these cities built up. So even when the fires happen, they can't jump and go as far as they normally would have. So everything is just so minor. And then you have to go in, you have to clear this out. Otherwise, you're not going to have the turkey populations you want. So it's just, it's very interesting.

40:35 John Gordon Yeah, it is. It is. Fire is a really great conservation tool and it's used well throughout the South. You know, controlled burns really help make quail populations, turkey, you know, white tails, all of it. It just like I said, that was Mother Nature's cleansing product, so to speak, with lightning

40:53 Kyle Green and fire that it really helped it out. It made me think too, is like we talked about man inventing fire, right? It was like, well, did they know it existed before they figure out how to make it? Well, based on the research we did with all the lightning strikes, they must have. They must have seen fire. But they probably weren't. Whenever they did, it was probably like, oh, no, not like let's, you know, put a piece of meat on a stick and try it out. You know what I mean? They're probably like, oh crap, every time it happens. So it's just interesting how they learned to control it.

41:22 John Gordon Yeah, I'm a big history buff man. The evolution of a lot of things is pretty fascinating to me about how, you know, we harness fire domesticated dogs on a big dog guy. The fact that you turned a wolf into a golden retriever. Yeah, is it? It's like, man, how did that happen? And it's pretty fascinating. It's pretty fascinating. Yeah, you look at a Yorkie. You know what I mean? Right. How the how the heck? A dog breeding is pretty fascinating to me, too. And you it was interesting. You said golden retriever. That's what I have. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I feel bad. Golden retrievers are a passion of mine.

41:59 Kyle Green They just they're such wonderful dogs. It's a field golden. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. So talk to talk about the difference. I know the difference, but that is because I'm really looking at that right now as field goldens.

42:09 John Gordon So I want to I want to I want to hear your thoughts on it. OK, so the Labrador started in England and it was really the English aristocracy that developed the Labrador retriever and to a lot of the dog that you see today. But there's you know, in Scotland is where the where the golden started and the golden retriever started out as as a mix of different breeds that they brought together to create the field golden retriever, which is a much smaller, shorter coated redder dog than you would see in the pet market. Right. So those dogs develop from there and there's still a contingency of people around the world who are breeding and continuing the golden the field golden tradition. So I think there's I mean, man, in the golden retriever population, you'd have to say that at least 80 percent are probably more show pet oriented dogs. For sure. So they've lost a lot. They've lost their instincts. And I love just golden retrievers in general. There's some of the sweetest dogs in the world. But my dog Buster, he's in my office right now as we speak, because he's with me everywhere. And it's great to work at Ducks and the limit of man. It's a very dog friendly environment. So I get to bring him every single day. He's got a bit of a fan club, you know, that they want to come by and visit. But he's a compact dog, like 50 pounds. He's out of a couple of really strong lines. My good buddy, Mark Atwater, he was a really great dog photographer. I'm sure you've probably seen some of his work. If you don't know who he is, if you've seen some great dog pictures, a lot of them in D.U. magazines. Matter of fact, he's done a lot of great photography work for us. He got off in the field, golems and the dog that's my dog, Sire is one of one of Mark's dogs and then his grandson is one of Mark's dogs. And he's he's really developed a strong line of him. So it's a comp that the field going retriever is such a blend of incredible hunting instincts, an incredible off switch and incredible intelligence. That's what it's like. It's like the three best things you could have in a dog. That's what I tell people. You know, I think you're tired of me talking about it, I'm sure. But I'm not. I'm not. In the waterfowl world, the Labradors can't. Yeah, it always will be. And I like Chesapeake Bay Retrievers as well. They're pretty cool dogs. But, you know, I really, you know, the field golden is a different dog. And I just think it just an excellent hunting companion. How is the shedding? Not bad at all. You would you would think that a long haired dog like that, and they're not that long comparatively, you know, it's a really more coarse compact coat than than the the pet style golden. So I would say it's it's, you know, the worst shedding dog I've ever had in my life was a German Shorthair. Yeah. Shed like wildfire. Yeah. And the shortest coat of any dog ever had. So there's no correlation, I don't think, a lot of times to the coat length and shedding. So I would say I've seen Labs shed a lot worse than those golden retrievers.

45:01 Kyle Green I grew up, I had a Labran Springer spaniel mix when I was a kid, and he shed quite a bit, too. But I feel golden has had my eye for a long time now. It's just we travel so much that I'm not married or anything. But if I if I was or when I am, I that's kind of my thought process is a field golden.

45:20 John Gordon Well, like I said, when you're ready, man, I know what to talk to you about. I'm into it. We'll talk it over at Speckle Belly Camp. That's it. Come to Speckle Belly Camp. We'll get we'll get we'll get Mark over there as well. And he can bring you know, I have my dog and he can bring a couple of his dogs. I think he's got. Wow. So what's he got? Five, five or six at the moment. When's the season down there? The spec season will open late October. And then it'll it'll run concurrent with ducks pretty much the whole way. So we definitely can work that out, man. You know, December, January, you're going to be in and out. I'm going to be in and out. But I'm sure we can come up with with some dates. It'll work. I'm in. I'm in. I would love that. All right. All right. You know, and yeah, we'll do some cooking, too.

46:00 Kyle Green Do it. Do some cooking, too, man. I don't think I mentioned that. But in our show, we've got a beautiful studio kitchen here in Auburn Hills. And every episode we cover that conservation messaging. But we cook everything we get every episode. And we try to do like a five star cool recipe that you get at like a restaurant, not something that's just throw it on the grill and, you know, we're not making poppers for Dove.

46:20 John Gordon You know what I mean? We're trying to mix it up a little bit. Man, that's that's a great point. There's so much more to do with with ball game than than just people. People know like that. Right. Rapid bacon. Yeah. Rapid and bacon throw it on the grill. Well, OK, that's good. But there's a lot of other ways to do it. There's a guy that, man, you really would love to meet, need to meet. The chef down at Spreadoaks Ranch in Texas, we've I've done quite a bit of filming down there with him. His name is Rick Rosser. And Rick is a huge farm to table guy. I mean, he really doesn't want to prepare anything that doesn't come off of that ranch. So he's, you know, from man, his charcuterie boards are the most incredible thing I've ever seen. He'll have meats on there that have been aging for over a year. Oh, wow. He's serious about it. Rick is is a great guy. We'll have Rick on D.U. Nation again coming up soon. Let's see. We're filming September 11th with him and another chef down there for Teal in Texas. It's but yeah, we need to get you down to Spreadoaks, man. You know, you and Rick get in the kitchen, man, just go nuts.

47:18 Kyle Green I would love that. I would absolutely love that. We leave September 11th. We're doing a bear hunt in Maine and we're going to be working with Amish people there. And we're working out all the details on how we're going to film them from the back, but never show their face, but have them. They're going to teach us how to make soap from bear fat.

47:37 John Gordon So I'm pretty excited about that, too. And that's awesome. Yeah, I think we've got it's in Pennsylvania. And I've thought about doing a film on this. But once again, they're not really friendly on filming. But we have an Amish Ducks on limit. Oh, really? Yes, we do. And oh, man. And they're big time fundraisers. They really are. So it's just like I've been trying to explore that angle. How would I really get those folks to really be agreed to be on film? And I'm not sure they would have happened.

48:02 Kyle Green But it's been an idea of mine. It's been a weird conversation, to be honest with you. And I can't talk to him on the phone. So the guy, Chuck, that we know that lives there, he communicated with him. And basically, they were like, you can't talk to somebody else's wife. So a man can't go talk to another man's wife. So I can't do that. But there's a couple of women that aren't married, whether they're widows or whatever it is. And I could talk to them, but I can't show their faces on camera. So I think what we're going to do is film over the back while they're explaining to me how to do it. So, you know, they're there. And I think it gains an interesting angle, too. And we're also going to cover why they don't want to be on camera, because it's not that they're just camera shy. It's that they don't want that. They don't want that credit or say to my understanding, it's they don't want. It's like a way of bragging or or a form of attention or I. The words escape me, but something like that, that that's why they don't want that a picture of themselves. But yeah, it's it's I'm not saying it correct. So don't quote me on it. But it's something like that. But yeah, so we're going to do that. And then and I guess Chuck was like, just so you know, like the guys there are going to razz you big time. I was like, why? He's like, because you're doing a woman's job by making the soap. So they're just going to be ripping you up. And I was like, well, so I don't know what the hell I'm walking into,

49:23 John Gordon to be honest with you, but it should be interesting. Yeah, that will be interesting. Maine, we did a Ducks Unlimited television episode a couple of years ago was really great. That's a beautiful part of the country. It really is.

49:34 Kyle Green No, you know, the I've been to 42 states now. And the two sleeper states that nobody talks about that are my favorite is Idaho and Maine.

49:45 John Gordon You brought up Idaho. I've got some contacts out there. And that's a great waterfall. Idaho is God at the Snake River. You've got a lot of a lot of, you know, big wetland areas. Ducks Unlimited has been really active out there in the West over the last decade, really helping develop those kind of projects. But, yeah, Idaho is a state man. Beautiful place. Incredible big game. Waterfowl, upland.

50:08 Kyle Green It's really got it all. Fishing. The Department of Fishing game there is the most impressive that I've run into yet. They are so scientific based. They are so focused on doing exactly what the consumer wants. They put out surveys every year and say, hey, these are ideas. Which one would you like to fund? And they ask the people buying the hunting and fishing licenses and that they do the project specifically based on that. All science based. And I was seeing interactions between the Department of Natural Resources there and the fishermen. And it was amazing. And I was like, man, oh, man, I wish we could replicate that in every state. If we had them in every state, the United States would be so much better off. Brett High is the biologist that we worked with. Wonderful human being.

50:51 John Gordon Wonderful human being. Passionate about his work. And that's that's fantastic. It's really great to know that, you know, that that kind of, you know, scientific presence is out there. Because we, you know, here at DU, we've got some, man, some of the smartest people I've ever met. And we're in these, you know, come in these halls. They just they have such a passion and such knowledge about how to develop wetland areas, how to help waterfowl really sustain and thrive. It's those folks are just the fascinating, you know, they got more brainpower than I do.

51:23 Kyle Green We had we had a video just go viral on TikTok. And I'd like to ask you, it's a bit controversial. Do you can I ask you your opinion or should I leave it off? It's up to you. Yeah. I mean, we have to get it out. OK, OK. So I've got a question for you then. And we had a video that just went viral here on TikTok. And in Michigan, it is illegal to hunt sandhill cranes. So no sandhill crane hunting in Michigan. The thing is, we have an incredible population of cranes. And if you asked any human being here, what do you see more of turkeys or cranes? Everybody would say cranes, no question asked. When you see birds in a field, it's probably cranes here. Like even right now, if I went out here and drove five miles, I would probably see 50 cranes. So we have a big population, but yet we can't hunt them. Now, what's interesting enough is the population has gotten so big that the government, the DNR is actually issuing kill tags to farmers to harvest them because of crop damage. So we have plenty of tags to give out crop damage tags and shoot the cranes for that reason. But it's illegal to eat them. So they make the farmers burn or bury them. And my argument is, can you imagine getting to heaven and looking God in the face and saying, yeah, I just all those beautiful birds you gave us that tasted so great, I just burned them because I because this guy told me to and that we I've been fighting this law for a while and sounding the alarm on it. Because what they should do is have license be sold like turkey tags where you get one and all of that money and funding could go in towards the conservation of the species as opposed to issuing kill tags and burning a renewable, gorgeous, incredible resource. And I've been trying to sound the alarm on it any way that I can, because I think it's I think it's unbelievable, unbiblical. And there's no ethics behind those laws whatsoever.

53:19 John Gordon And man, I'm just think about that, because in my experience, the Sandhill crane is table fair among the waterfowl species is unmatched. Yeah, it's it's unparalleled. So to think about the fact that they would require you to burn them. Oh, man. And, you know, my grandfather be rolling over in his grave because he taught me from a very, very young age. If you were going to harvest an animal, it is your responsibility. If you don't eat it yourself, you need to make sure that it's used. And I've always taken that to heart from from day one. And I think it's a great conservation message if you know, to utilize that resource, because it's you know, it's just you're being very disrespectful to the game by doing that.

53:59 Kyle Green Yeah. And there's like a disconnect there, right? Like where they're so adamant about not having a hunting season. And the the argument behind it is they look similar to another bird that is endangered. I get that's one of the biggest arguments I've heard towards it, which I can understand. But there's plenty of ducks that look like ducks. You can't shoot. You know, I get how many of us have pulled up on a, you know, the wrong bird and had to go, oh, no, no, no, no. You know what I mean? It's it's you know, it's all it's all happened like, no, don't shoot, don't shoot, don't shoot. It's not what you think. You know, and I just think it's important that we get the word out there about the Sandhill Crane. I'd like to see a season put in place where we sold licenses that raised funds to actually help the population grow. And given the fact that we're in the flyway, too, it would be helpful to Sandhill populations overall if we sold that license here.

54:45 John Gordon Agreed, agreed. Sandhill is a fascinating bird. We just we just had a TV episode come out a couple of weeks ago. Our chief fundraising officer, he goes every year to the Lubbock, Texas area to hunt Sandhills. And, you know, it's a great area to hunt. But Texas has always embraced the hunting of Sandhill Crane. You know, although you're talking about being confused with another species. And at one point in time, I think it was below I-35 in the south, in the Texas coastal region. Crane season was never open because the fact they're whooping cranes around. That was the bird. I just I can never remember if the word was right. Yeah, I've got close to whooping cranes and it's just, man, I don't see how you'd confuse them. You know, I mean, it's a much bigger white bird compared to a, you know, smaller dusky gray bird that has a different call.

55:32 Kyle Green So it just I'm like, hmm, I'm not sure how you really confuse that. We're also the only state without a dove season. So, I mean, that's that's, you know, we're not a lot of hunt. We're not allowed to hunt doves because they're a songbird. Oh, man, that's that's rough. Yeah, the number one harvested animal on the face of the earth. We're not allowed to hunt in Michigan.

55:52 John Gordon So, man, once again, I got some deunation stuff coming up in Texas. And we're going to talk about white winged doves, you know, and we're going to have white wings and and the fact that how the white wing populations in Texas have expanded over the years and now there's special seasons that when I was a kid, they were only able to hunt white wing in the valley in Mexico because their range wasn't expanded beyond that. And so it was a very south Texas thing. And now it's wow. White wing, you know, they've got six days of special white wing season in the South Zone that so you can, you know, really expand the harvest of it. I think the numbers I've heard this year that in Texas, like there's a little like I think it's eleven point seven million white wing this year. So they had a really great hatch this year in the morning does too. I think the morning does are up like 40 percent over last year. So it yeah, but man, I can't even. Delphoning has been such a big part of my life, you know, it kind of kicks everything off that man, I have to move out of Michigan, I think.

56:48 Kyle Green You know, I just I love this state. I love the seasons. I love the adventure here. I absolutely I'll never leave. But I've got some things to fix up with our laws here. We've got a deer bait ban here, which is incredibly ignorant. And the science is out that, you know, it doesn't make any sense. The DNR actually came together and then got it and said, hey, the public is upset about this deer bait ban because it does, you know, moving apples 100 yards from your from an apple tree close to your stand doesn't create chronic wasting disease. That does decide how it works. So once they realize that they got it all the way up to the governor and she's never hunted it today in her life, so she vetoed it. So now we can't, you know, that's it's the problem with Michigan is like some people don't like baiting and that's OK. But in Michigan, a lot of people have 10 acres or five acres or 20 acres. And that's their piece of land they can hunt. They can't track all across the world the, you know, the land here. So they do what they can to make their land as interesting or good to deer as they possibly can. And one of the things they do is deer that they bait. And a lot of guys, you know, they get one weekend a year off or, you know, to go up deer hunting and they bait and they harvest the deer and they go home. But now we're seeing the harvest numbers plummet because of the no deer baiting, because now they're staying on specific lands that people don't have access to. And that's just it is just so now the numbers are going up. But somehow that makes chronic wasting disease OK. You know, having a bunch more deer in the landscape, making out with each other 24 7, that's not a problem. But moving some apples, you know, it's just so it's just it bothers me a little bit because we've got some laws to clean up here. And that's part of that's why I like to use because you guys are so science focused. And then all that science pushing happens. And then that information is given to the hunters and the Department of Natural Resources. And you have great people in the Michigan DNR, like John Darlin, the people we work with in the video or manage the Harsens Island Waterfowl area. They work with you guys. Thank God for the information that you guys give them so that they can make educated decisions. So because of Ducks Unlimited, I have no problems with how the waterfowl is managed here. I think it's managed very, very well. And we just need you guys to branch out and handle every other animal and then we'll be good to go.

59:00 John Gordon Well, we make a point that what we do is beneficial to really all other wildlife and people, too. But I don't know, Cal, it may be a stretch to get administration to really want to move away from what, you know, in Indian different things than the waterfowl. But anyway, man, this has been fantastic. I sure appreciate you coming on the D.U. podcast and we're really looking forward to watching the show on the History Channel.

59:28 Kyle Green It sounds really exciting. Thank you so much. Yeah, I hope everyone will tune in every Saturday at 9 a.m. and 930 a.m. Eastern Standard. Check your local listings. But every Saturday in September, there'll be two brand new episodes back to back. So either set your DVR, check it out on Hulu and everywhere else.

59:45 John Gordon You know, you can find History Channel. Excellent. Excellent. And once again, we thank you very much for being a strong partner with Ducks Unlimited and partner in conservation. You know, it's we're all in this together and we just got to keep on pushing it forward. Amen. All right, folks, once again, thanks for listening to the Ducks Unlimited podcast and supporting wetlands and waterfowl conservation.