Declan (00:00)
Hi

everyone. Welcome back to Long Game Hero Rivery Podcast. My name is Declan and this is Sylvan. And today we are joined by a very special guest. This is author and writer Scarlett Drake. And some of you may be familiar with some of her works, particularly Oleander and Limerence. Scarlett, thank you so much for joining us.

Scarlett Drake (00:19)
You're welcome. Happy to be here. Scared, but happy.

Declan (00:24)
to be fair, I did once say to Scarlett that she scares me because her writing last time gave me like an existential crisis. But keeping that in mind, we're gonna

Scarlett Drake (00:33)
Payback.

Declan (00:34)
ask Scarlett some questions about her books and how she's getting on as a writer in romance. and hopefully we'll we'll get some information out of her about what she might be doing next as well coming up.

Oleander, for those that aren't familiar, is a retelling of the great expectations, but done through a bit of a contemporary lens. So it starts off with two characters, Cass and Jude. Jude is this kid. He's living with his sister. He's lost his parents at a young age, and he is now living with his sister and his sort of a

Bh ongo and law, you could say. they're working for this very strange, eclectic, rich family and this strange man who's currently also looking after his nephew, Kat. The two of them strike up a sort of friendship that's a bit more of a rivalry, but over time they grow closer. But due to things happening outside their circumstances, they're starting to drift apart and they have this on-again, off-again relationship throughout their lives with lots of drama, lots of

Very intense emotions that will get you pulling your hair out. But you just need to read the rest of it now to see how it ends.

Scott, I'm going to start first with just your general reception that you've had with your books. I find that a lot of MM romance writers, whenever they first start out, they kind of struggle to hit that in between between, you know, what they want to write and good critical reception. I feel like you're kind of hitting the nail on the head at the moment. So

Scarlett Drake (02:10)
Mm.

Declan (02:11)
you've had a lot of really positive feedback. What's that been like after you've sort of released the books and you're getting all this back?

Scarlett Drake (02:19)
Very overwhelming. I mean I'll take your word for it if you say I'm I'm in that sweet spot. It does it does feel like over the last maybe the last year I have it's felt quite intense, but obviously I've been building up a bit of a back catalogue over the last three years. I think Himarcia came out in 23. Was it 23? I can't remember. Yeah, I think it was 23, which I wrote during COVID. That came out and it did fairly well. Like it did probably better. I I also wrote to like a duology prior to that, which didn't do as well.

Not in the queer romance genre, just in c contemporary romance. Himarcia came out and it got s it got a really good reception, I think. And then Oleander came out, and I think that might have just been the sort of tipping point where like people I think maybe people were expecting me to be this kind of writer, and then Oleander came and it was completely different from this other book that I'd just written. So I guess people were kind of like, who's this? Where where's she come from and what has she done? So like certainly over the last

Two years. I've now got four books out. Well, six if we count the the the other the other two. But I think having a back catalogue obviously just gives you a bit more there's just more for people to talk about, there's more more books for people to read. and I think there's something for everyone in those four books. Like that like whoever someone who might like there's a lot of my readers who read who then were like, Oleander's not for me. So I think there's a good mix. so yeah, I also I would say is

I wrote on Wattpad for about twelve, thirteen years to like like to barely no one. Like I was just on there writing, kind of churning chapters out week by week by week, to not really many readers and just kind of slogging away at it. So writing is this sort of success, or certainly having people come to me and telling me that they're reading my work, that they love my work. that's brand new. So yeah, it's a bit overwhelming, still a bit surreal. Like I still get my mum asking me, like, when am I bo when why can't I get your book in Asda?

So like trying to explain to like my mum like how like all like the

Declan (04:19)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (04:20)
Kindle works and how like KDP works and so sh as soon as my books get get on an Asta shelf, I think at at home it'll feel like I'm an actu. Yeah, so I I still feel a bit like yeah, like when I

Declan (04:28)
Yeah. You've made it.

Scarlett Drake (04:32)
when I'm with my family, it's like I yeah, I don't think they really understand, but like yeah, it's weird. It's weird because it doesn't feel quite real. And then I was in Toronto last year for

a book convention, my first ever book convention, and Rachel Reed was there actually. And there was like this massive cue f who I th I thought it was for Rachel and they were like, No, no, no, that's for you. Like it was this massive cue of people like out the door. And I was just like so someone told me, I don't know if that's true 'cause I was an anxious mess and I barely remember anything from that day, but someone told me me and Rachel had the longest cues that day. So I think at that moment I was like, wait a minute here, this is actually this is actually something.

So yeah, very overwhelming, doesn't feel real. I'm still convinced like my next book is gonna flop and then it'll all be over. But I'm just I'm writing it at the moment, skating books to grammars

Declan (05:20)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (05:21)
and just like, yeah, having fun.

Declan (05:24)
So the pressure is on from the family to be on that as the shelf then?

Scarlett Drake (05:30)
That's it, yeah. Yeah, I've not made it until I'm on the Azda shelf. Tesco might do as well, I don't know. But yeah.

Declan (05:38)
For anyone who's not aware, Asda like our supermarkets in the UK, like it's kinda yeah. If you're on the AS the shelf you're you're usually one with one with the people. So yeah.

Scarlett Drake (05:48)
You made Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Declan (05:52)
And obviously you mentioned Wattpad there. Is that sort of your your background in writing? Is it like is that where is that the so did you have any like formal

Scarlett Drake (05:59)
Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm.

Declan (06:03)
writing or anything? Like did you go to school for it or university for it? No?

Scarlett Drake (06:04)
No. No.

No, not for writing. I wanted to be a nurse originally and I did like a year of that and then realised, yeah, this isn't for me. Like then I'd I I kinda tried to find what I wanted, like then never really had any sort of idea. I did social science. Like I actually have a day job where I work in housing for a housing charity, so

Writing always just was like a hobby. So I did it on Wattpad for like had this st like wrote when I was a kid, wrote with friends, like but never like from a working class background in Glasgow or whatever, you never really think, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna be able to be a writer one day. Like it just it just didn't not feel like that was that was something that was even possible or like a real thing that a person could do. So

Well so it was mainly like fan fiction and I'm I'm thinking now because I I think something like my first fanfiction that I wrote with my friend when I was fourteen that I don't want you get too excited because I don't have this anymore and I cannot get it to you. But it was a Peter Audrey fanfiction and it had demons in it. So I know, I know. It was like Peter Andre Demon Hunter. It was it was incredible

Silvan (07:14)
I feel like that

would be so popular right now.

Declan (07:18)
don't quite you understand that. That's like a lost art.

Scarlett Drake (07:20)
I know, I know,

I know, I know, I know. I think about it like every other day. I'm like, w how would I get that back? It's just in here. It's just in here. So yeah, that was like my that was my first meme of actually writing something. And then yeah, didn't do it again for many, many years. And then yeah, just sat down and like it was round about the time when Fifty Shades of Grey was like super popular. And I remember reading that book and being like, I could absolutely do this. Like I could write that like I could absolutely write something.

and I think that probably happened to a lot of people around about that time actually. And yeah, I started writing it. Didn't know anything about Wattpad actually, just kinda came acros I came across it by accident, I think. And then I was like, this is a place that I could I could post my work and just see what happens. And yeah, then I kinda got stuck in a rut for about ten, fifteen years over there. 'Cause it's free, like they don't pay their creators over there. And so you were just really just writing for fun. And that's why a lot of it is mainly fanfiction. But there's a lot of real talented writers over there.

and what pad do kind of select you out and they kind of promote you and they give you these opportunities. So I had an opportunity where I worked for Amazon Prime, like I wrote like some promo stuff for a T series that they had. I was included in a kind of short story compilation, fanfiction compilation about Jimmy Dornan. You can actually read that one. so yeah, you can actually buy it and purchase

Declan (08:42)
Thanks.

Scarlett Drake (08:42)
it. That is that's out there. Yeah, it's in there. I don't know what they were thinking actually publishing a book of fanfiction, but

So that yeah, but I wasn't even really I always just felt like something was about to happen there. And if I just you know, if I just held on and I just kept writing, then then I I was gonna get my big breakthrough, Wappad, and it it never happened. I mean, and then COVID. And then I thought I'm just gonna totally pivot. I'm gonna I pivoted what I was reading at the time. I started reading a lot of queer romance and then got into BTS, got into K pop, and then this idea for like Hemarcia. You've you've not read Hemarcia yet, have you? You just went Oleander and

Declan (09:15)
Not yet, it's all on the list.

Scarlett Drake (09:16)
then Limited.

And then the idea of how Famarcia was born and then here we are. Yeah, just I took the risk. I was like, I'm not gonna get anywhere over here. This like I've given it twelve year twelve years, like it's not I'm not I'm not getting my big break via Wattpad. I need just make it happen on my own. And again, never thought anyone would read it because it was so different from what I was writing over on Wattpad. So I never really expected a lot of those readers to come over and buy it and it yeah, just find a total, a total new audience. And I don't know if I have any readers that

that were with me over on Wattpad. Was it fascinating? yes, please do.

Silvan (09:48)
it was so interesting. And I wanted to ask what it was

because I didn't I didn't know about your background and so and we've

Scarlett Drake (09:55)
Mm.

Silvan (09:55)
talked to lots of listeners and lots of commenters about how, you know, Wattpad and AO3 have really sort of surged.

Scarlett Drake (10:01)
Yeah, yeah.

Silvan (10:03)
And I wanted to ask what it was like writing for yourself and publishing on Wattpad versus now writing to be published in a traditional sense.

Scarlett Drake (10:13)
I mean, I still, like I say, I'm not on the shelf in Asda, so I don't feel like I'm published in this traditional sense until that happens. until I can walk into a bookshop and see my book on the shelf. I still have this thing in my head where I'm not, I'm it's not, it's not not real. It's of course it's real, but I'm doing a lot of this work on my own. I don't have like a publisher behind me. It feels in many ways the same, but obviously there's a w a reward here, and there's a lot of like you feel more valid, like there was very little, there was a lot of value in that.

People would be waiting for your updates every week on Wattpad and they would be messaging you and they would be really into your story. And it but it was like that was where you kind of got your inspiration. You did you didn't have like books to grammarmers like talking about your books or telling people about your book. Like it was just people stumbling across your story on Wattpad because they saw it on a chart. It was really hard to like promote yourself in any way. There was no so like it feels the same, but

Th there's also a lot less pressure now than I than I felt when I was writing on Wattpad for free, because I was like, well, I need to update a chapter every single week or people are just gonna lose interest and be reading something else. But now I get the time to just sit, I get the time to just write what I want to write and put it out when I want. And I know I have these readers that will f that will follow me into the next book. So and obviously I now I get paid, which is nice. I get paid I get paid for the hours and hours and hours

Declan (11:31)
Mm-hmm.

Scarlett Drake (11:31)
of like life that I give up to write, which I love doing, don't get me wrong, but

like you you

Declan (11:37)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (11:38)
got the satisfaction of like finishing a novel and so like I've got like six six novels sitting over on Wattpad that were all finished, but they just sit there and never earned a dime for them. But we did it for the love of the arc. So yeah.

Declan (11:52)
For the love of the fanfiction, Peter Andre and Jamie Dorman.

Scarlett Drake (11:54)
But listen, yeah, f exactly. For the fact a Tom there's a

Tom Hardy one on there as well. there's a beauty at like fanfiction is where I cut my teeth, man. Like fanfiction writers are are some I have read some incredible fanfiction and like I love fanfiction. I love reading it. I loved writing it, it was so much fun. But also Wattpad was such a good place to just learn your craft. Like, it

Declan (12:15)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (12:16)
taught me really how to pace a story. And I don't know, I mean I I feel like

I feel like a lot writers just just need like pacing is so important and I don't think you realise it, but when you're writing week to week to week and so I I think I feel like I've held on to that sort of like every chapter of mine sort of feels like you're coming to the end of a scene and then it's so I I always kind of write every chapter almost like I'm a cliffhanger almost. So like, we need to wait to the next the next week until we find out what's gonna happen. And I never really lost that, but it did really help me like hone the craft over there.

Declan (12:51)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (12:51)
So the twelve

years was not wasted, it was just, yeah, I I learned how how to write a good story, I think, over

Declan (12:56)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (12:56)
there.

Declan (12:57)
I think Brandon Sanderson talks about something very similar to that as well, as in every chapter should almost be like a tiny story in itself. So you have like your

Scarlett Drake (13:05)
Yeah. Yep.

Declan (13:06)
your beginning, middle, end, and then what's gonna happen next. So

Scarlett Drake (13:09)
Yeah. Yeah.

Declan (13:11)
it's interesting though that you don't have like formal writing, like training or education or anything like that there.

Scarlett Drake (13:18)
Yeah

Silvan (13:18)
Well, and it I think it just

goes to show the the amount of work that it does take. Because a lot of people will assume

Declan (13:22)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (13:23)
you know you write your first novel, you publish, and you're an overnight success. And I think what you've been able to demonstrate it's it's taken ten years or more than ten years to be this overnight success. So there's there's a

Scarlett Drake (13:32)
Yeah. Yeah.

Silvan (13:34)
lot of graft that happens before what people see in a way.

Scarlett Drake (13:38)
Yeah. And like building that cop like I wouldn't have been able to just publish a book sh I wouldn't have had the confidence or the the self belief that I could have just went out and done it. Like it and also it was a different time then, 'cause I'm older than I look. So like I I don't remember like Amazon like self publishing being like a massive thing. Like it seemed to like really take off in the last like ten years or whatever. So when I was writing over in Wattpad, that seemed to be like it was AO three or you were

getting a traditional publishing deal. There was no kind of or certainly not to my knowledge, there was no in between where you could go self publish your own book. and that I think that's changed a lot of people's lives 'cause I would never I mean I would never I still would like I've never been offered a traditional publishing deal. and I don't see it ever happening. So I wouldn't you know I if if those were the only two options in that middle ground of I a lot of people have a lot of issues with Amazon, a lot of issues with KTP, but it it you know, it's it's sometimes it's the only way you're gonna read a lot of these stories so

Declan (14:31)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's the most

Scarlett Drake (14:33)
I'm I'm all for it.

Declan (14:35)
practical way of doing it whenever you are sort of self published, and you can't do that sort of traditional route of the the writing publisher. So no, I get what you mean. Obviously, no, you have a lot of experience with writing and you've published multiple books yourself. What sort of part of the writing process do you find that you would struggle with the most?

Scarlett Drake (14:56)
Mm. Discipline. Really being disciplined.

Declan (14:59)
No, no.

Scarlett Drake (14:59)
And like moving away from still thinking about writing is something I do for fun. So like, it's way down on the priority list. So if I've got a million other things to do, I'm like, well, I need to get all these things done before I can just sit down and and write my silly little story. So

Declan (15:14)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (15:15)
like really making the time to be like, this is a job, this is my income, and I need to make time. It's like I don't need to be feeling amazing. I don't need to have

my every other part of my life doesn't have to be like you know, sorted out before I can enjoy this time that I get to sit down and write. So I think discipline for me and just Yeah, just sit just the actual physical. Usually when I sit down, I'm flying. Like I don't I don't really get like writer's block. I sometimes get a wee bit uninspired or I get distracted because other things are going on in my life. But I don't really sit there and I'm like, you know, it's not it's never usually difficult

Declan (15:50)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (15:51)
for me. It's the actual sitting

down at the desk in front of the computer and yes.

Declan (15:53)
It's forcing yourself to sit in front of the computer, yeah.

Scarlett Drake (15:57)
And it's not because I don't love it. I do love it that I'm always like, but I've got, you know, I've got I need to do this other

Declan (16:02)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (16:03)
house life thing. So yeah, I need to and that's taken some time as well. I changed my kind of working hours at work. I went part time at my my real job. So I could dedicate the start of the week to writing and the end of the week. So I'm trying. I'm I'm getting better at it, but

Absolutely the discipline side of it and the doing. Think about it all the time though. I'm always thinking about writing. I'm just not physically sitting there doing the writing.

Silvan (16:32)
And think that's really interesting. Like you talked about how, you know, you have another job. So you have a more sort of like nine to five traditional job and then the writing is sort of interspersed between that. And I don't think people would have known that otherwise. I think people

Scarlett Drake (16:46)
Mm.

Silvan (16:46)
think, you've got a book out, you must be a full-time author. And actually it sounds like for a lot of authors, you know, that are sort of self-published, you're juggling multiple jobs just to make things happen.

Scarlett Drake (16:53)
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it isn't just the writing, obviously. Like you hear that a little. There's the marketing side of it. Like I made my first cover for Hamasha. I made that cover myself. There's a lot of like promo that goes into answering emails, messaging people on Insta like like being on my phone and on Instagram or on TikTok is like part of my job because I'm like haven't I'm making sure that, you know, if someone's left me a really nice review, Declan's left me an like a

Warren Peace about how much he loved my book and he makes sure that I'm I'm reading that and I'm I like I'm so appreciative because it sounds so corny, but no one would read my books if you guys weren't talking about them and posting about them. So that is part of the job. It's not just the writing part. that's my favourite part of it, is the writing part. The actual so I have a PA now, which is so fancy. So she does a lot of the stuff, like the answering emails, and like she does all that stuff. People ask me like

They've ordered a book for my shop but it's not a rat like she does all that stuff now, so I just I don't need to think about it. But yes, it's a full time job on top of a full time job and then yeah.

Silvan (17:59)
And can I ask about that? Because it sounds like I

Scarlett Drake (17:59)
Ha ha ha

Silvan (18:01)
think for a lot of us, like we're doing something that we're really passionate about, but we do another job because it either pays the bills or it's something that we've done before in a way.

Scarlett Drake (18:07)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Silvan (18:09)
Does that thought or that worry ever go away? We're like, what if this doesn't pan out? The thing that I'm really passionate about? What if it doesn't pan out? So do I need an insurance, for example?

Scarlett Drake (18:19)
Mm.

Mm. So I think for me, as I said, only over the last two years have I really seen like the money side of it hasn't like been like a big factor. Again, I was just writing because I I love it. And, you know, it's only over the last couple of years I've seen I could actually make a real living from this and I could give up my other job and I could actually dedicate a full time

you know, I could be a full-time writer. But yeah, there's definitely that bit at the back of my head where I like, but things change so like st it's too unsettled. We don't there was all that chat maybe last year about it they were gonna start banning book like there was b there was talk about like in cer like in the States I think they were we don't know, you know, th if people are even going to be able to read like queer romance in the States in the next three years. Like there was just a lot of scare

Declan (19:06)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (19:07)
stories at the time. And I was like, right, well I don't know if I could

rely on this for the rest of my life until I retire to be like my pension. So and it's also a company that I've worked for for a very long time. So I have extremely like I've got great conditions there. Like and I would be really silly to give up. And I enjoy it. I I'm I'm living the best of both at the moment where I keep my fo I keep my other job and I do this as my passion project and another but so it's kinda like a second job. but yeah it's only in the last two years I've really thought that it would

it would of it as a job and not just a hobby. yeah. And I still

Declan (19:37)
Yeah. Yeah. You see that? Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (19:41)
still have trouble st like I s like I said earlier, I still have trouble thinking about it as a job. But when you start kind of obviously looking at s the income and things like you it makes more s it it becomes more serious and you're like, actually wait a minute.

Declan (19:55)
Yeah.

You need to decide then who you're gonna start assigning your energy to and what projects are you actually gonna really dedicate

Scarlett Drake (20:00)
Yes, yes.

Declan (20:02)
to. I can see that, yeah. In terms of like obviously the books that you brought out now, the MN romance ones, there's no like particular theme to them. I know like some writers say like Rachel Reed is like she loves to write hockey romances. Where yours are a bit more a a bit more random, yeah. Is there

Scarlett Drake (20:18)
Okay, yeah, mm I'm all I'm all over the place. It's chaos. It's

it's chaos.

Declan (20:25)
Like

how do you decide on your ideas? Like what do what makes like an idea stuck in your head where you go, I'm gonna do that one?

Scarlett Drake (20:31)
so it's a good question. I think it Rach Rachel is obviously really passionate about hockey. Like she's a massive hockey fan. I don't know what team it is she supports, but I know she's super, super passionate about it. So she's writing about in a in a genre and a in a thing that she's super passionate about. I wrote a K-pop book because I was super passionate about K-pop. He'd asked me when we just came on the call about Ballet.

I think I it's kind of linked to like how where do you get your inspiration from. So like it could be like a a film that I've seen or a scene from a film or like a song or just a music video or something where there's just some little spark in there where I I could like I can kind of see that in a like it being an entire story or an entire novel. So yeah, I I think it'll always be a bit random. I don't see me settling down and just going, yeah, I'm gonna write like

rock star romance for the next ten year. I think I'd be bored. I think it keeps it interesting for me as well. I think I'm gonna write paranormal after this. I've written paranormal before. I've written fantasy as well, over in Wattpad. So there's a whole trilogy sitting over there. so yeah, it just keeps it interesting for me. You can get like stuff if you like. Actually

Declan (21:37)
We get linked.

Scarlett Drake (21:42)
The fantasy trilogy is not finished. I abandoned it in book B like halfway through and I still do get messages from people going, When are you gonna finish this? And I'm like, Well no, I'm not gonna finish So yeah, I feel awful about that. But I would love to go back to that story actually. It's got s it's got real potential. It's I really enjoyed writing it. It was such good fun and very different from everything else I'd written. Which Oleander

Declan (22:01)
Mm-hmm.

Scarlett Drake (22:02)
kinda was as well, to a certain extent.

Declan (22:06)
Hmm. Speaking of which, I think that's a good segue into

Scarlett Drake (22:10)
Excellent.

Declan (22:13)
discussing Oleander. No.

Scarlett Drake (22:13)
Talking about the book that broke your heart.

Declan (22:16)
The book that ruined me for days. Let's see.

Scarlett Drake (22:19)
Mm.

Declan (22:22)
first of all, what what made you want to adapt the sort of great expectations into like an MM romance book? I mean, it's kind of genius, but like where did that come from?

Scarlett Drake (22:36)
I'm gonna really disappoint you here because it's not an adaptation of Charles Dickens' Great Great Expectations. It's an adaptation of the Gwyneth Paltrow, Ethan Hawk movie from the nineteen nineties. Have you seen it?

Hmm. I saw that in my formative years, like it was a very coming of age like moment for me. I remember the trailer. I watched the trailer so many times. And it it had this amazing like soundtrack and yeah, I loved that movie so much. And it just never left me for years and years. And I was always I always wanted to try and do like well it is a that is a modern take on it. So I always had but I always had this idea, like, that could be that would

There was bits that I didn't like about it, but I loved the film generally, but I was like, but if you know, if this had happened So I I fantasized and like fixated on that movie. And then after I wrote Himarcia, it the idea came but back to me and I thought, remember that idea you had years ago? You mean remember ninety nineties Great Expectations movie with Ethan Hawk and Groot Bound? What what if you made that what if you did a query retelling of that and then it

Honestly, I could just see it like run rav in my head. I could see the house, I could see Gideon, I could just see out and I was like, Giddy,

Declan (23:46)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (23:47)
my god, I could just see it all and it all made so much sense and I was like, I'm gonna give this a go. I didn't know if it would work 'cause it and again it was so different from Himarcia and I thought people are gonna be expecting me now to be this writer and do these this kind of book and you're really gonna write a retelling of like great like when so many people now are like talking about you and think So it was a risk. But

I just couldn't I could not stop thinking about it. And so yeah, that's how it came about. It was a ch like a teenage fixation and then it just came back to me and I thought let's let's do this. Let's try this. So yeah.

Silvan (24:23)
I love that because, you know, Great Expectations is such a it's such a a literary staple. Like we all read it at school

Scarlett Drake (24:31)
Mm. Yeah.

Silvan (24:32)
and then I agree that movie with Glampaltra was just so good. it was so so good.

Scarlett Drake (24:37)
Yeah. So dramatic. So

nineties. It was just it's so camp now when you like what if like you need to go back and watch the trailer now because you can't even get it in like H D, like it's so it's just a really bloody and like ninety f nineties esque and just ever and about and the song is still amazing. but yeah, so that's that's really what it's based on. So I'm sorry to disappoint all the lit litheads out there that are gonna be like, no, she's n she's not the woman I thought she was. Yeah,

Declan (25:02)
Adaptation of an adaptation.

Scarlett Drake (25:05)
exactly.

Silvan (25:07)
Everyone's there reading Charles Dickens.

Scarlett Drake (25:07)
I did refer back.

Yeah, no, should I go back and read the book? Should I because I get I've got so many people being like, should I read the that's exactly what

Declan (25:12)
No, go watch watch a nineties film.

Scarlett Drake (25:15)
I was like, should I read the the book? And I'm like, well no, you could just watch this movie. It'd be a lot. But I did refer back more to because I read it years ago, like you say, I read it

Declan (25:24)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (25:24)
when I was still at school.

But when I was writing Oleander, I did refer back to like certain plot points and certain like themes and like I like looked at a lot of the study guides and just lines from it. So I didn't watch the movie because I thought I don't really I I remembered it. I remembered every scene anyway, so I don't have to. But yeah, I referred more to the to the book when I was writing it. But yeah, that was really the inspiration was

Is the movie?

Declan (25:52)
It's interesting.

Silvan (25:52)
And that's what you

can really see, whilst it's not a direct adaptation from Charles Dickens' book, you can see the themes that are so present in your writing. And I think that's

Scarlett Drake (25:59)
Mm. Mm.

Silvan (26:01)
what people will really take away from that, especially after now. We're giving everyone homework to watch the movie. So that's great. And those themes really translate across.

Scarlett Drake (26:10)
Declan, have you seen it?

You're being very quiet. You haven't seen you're too young, aren't you? You is that is that what it is? You haven't seen it, have you? You don't know what we're talking about. Okay, okay.

Declan (26:19)
I've not seen it, no. I've not seen it. I mean

I did have two sisters growing up. I probably did watch it by proxy, by accident at one point, but no, I've never never watched it myself. But no yeah I have home marketing so there you go.

Scarlett Drake (26:28)
There you go. You're gonna hate it.

Declan (26:38)
Also, I did notice as I was reading Oleander, you make a lot of like references to like gothic sort of themes and you get that sort of vibe, especially when you're talking about the mansion and the way in which they live and a lot of the prose as well. You get that sort of vibe that you would when you're reading a book like that. Are you like was like

The Gothic song that inspired you at all whenever you were writing this, or is it just song that just sort of came out of nowhere?

Scarlett Drake (27:12)
I wouldn't say it came out of nowhere. I don't tend to like like go towards like I'm not obsessed or like love gothic literature per se. even though I'm writing a Dracula retelling next. But no, I think it felt right for this book and the setting of the mansion, like the Gothic vibes felt really kind of apt for that. and I guess I mean I read a lot of Southern Gothic stuff when I was younger, like Virginia Andrews, like she totally

Declan (27:41)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (27:41)
broke my brain a little bit. I read her far too young. I think there's a lot of women of a certain age who read Virginia Andrews when like they were 13, 14 and it's maybe a little bit a little bit twisted. so

Declan (27:52)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (27:53)
there's there's a lot of like dark themes in that and I definitely think I I love the kind of melodrama of like the gothic stuff. I love yeah sort of over the top like Gideon is so over the top. Like it just felt right. It fit like I couldn't have that

sitting in Limerence, like there could not be someone sit in Limerence talking the way Gideon talked or like, you know, swanning about with the three piece suit on and stuff. So I think it it fit. I also felt like I was paying homage to a little bit to the classic 'cause I was doing it doing a retelling, I felt like it it should it should try

Declan (28:26)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (28:27)
and I don't want it to be too modern, you know, like Ten Things I Hate About You. I wasn't trying to do like, you know, like a retelling

Declan (28:34)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (28:34)
of Shakespeare with with the kids or whatever. So I wanted to keep it

Still had the right still had the right vibe.

Declan (28:41)
Yeah. Yeah, I think you do get that idea with the book that there is that vibe. There's like an atmosphere to it, especially the scenes when they're still on the island. Yeah, a hundred percent.

Scarlett Drake (28:48)
For boarding. Mm-hmm.

Declan (28:51)
And Gideon is he does have that sort of mischievous, slightly mysterious

Scarlett Drake (28:58)
Ugh. Cunning.

Declan (29:01)
cunning villain thing you do get out of Gothic literature

Scarlett Drake (29:03)
Mm.

Declan (29:04)
that I really liked. and he was an interesting individual, so

Scarlett Drake (29:11)
That's one way, that's one word to describe them.

Declan (29:12)
The yeah,

the level of manipulation within it all and

Scarlett Drake (29:16)
Ooh.

Declan (29:17)
he's the the pettiness as well, I found with his character, like he would always find

Scarlett Drake (29:21)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Declan (29:22)
little digs to to give out to people just just for the sake of it. And I want to ask you about the title, because obviously Oleander is it's for anyone that doesn't know, it's like a flower, but it's also like a poisonous flower. now

We have a book club as well, and we actually read the book together, so we did. And a lot of people brought up the the Ollieander title. They wanted to know what the significance of it was. My theory was that it's how Gideon viewed Cass, but I wanna know what what was your sort of intention with the name.

Scarlett Drake (30:03)
I I I'm now I'm I'm like I don't because I like the fact that you had your own interpretation of it. because the title Yeah, I kinda don't want to ruin

Declan (30:10)
Don't worry, Rena.

Scarlett Drake (30:13)
it. I feel like it it can have so like I think it has so many there's so many possibilities of of what that title could mean. Like there's obviously the connection to Luke and him being he works with plants, he you know, he reared Jude from

when he was little and then Caspian also reared it Gideon reared Caspian, like the way like diff so there was the grooming aspect as well. So and then I just think there's like the the kind of obvious it's the way Cass sees himself. Like he sees himself

Declan (30:45)
Mm-hmm.

Scarlett Drake (30:45)
as this poisonous thing and in Judah's life. And I guess that's why he well, I don't like I'm not I'm not gonna say why he leaves, but

I think it just worked really well, but I've tried to explain. I remember when I I hadn't come up with the title. I knew that I was writing the the retelling and I was like, right, what am I gonna call this? And it was about halfway through, not even halfway through, three, three or four chapters in. And I find that I need to have a title quite early on, or it just doesn't take shape in my head. The book doesn't feel real until it has a title. So as soon as I decided that Luke was gonna be a gardener, because I

in the night I don't again no spoilers for the nineties, nineties version, the nineteen nineties version, but he's a fisherman. the Luke character in that is is a fisherman. And as soon as I decide I so I I I obviously needed to get them to Gideon and Cass, like how are their lives gonna gonna cross? And as soon as I decided Luke was gonna be a gardener, Luke Green, bit on the nose, but as soon as I decided he was gonna be a gardener, I know that the title had to have some kind of horticultural

connection and then I was googling obviously like poisonous plants and stuff and I just thought that there was just something really gorgeous about the word oleander as well and you know I love a one word title a one word title kind of cow. It just felt so strong. And then that sort of informed a lot of the stuff around the poison, like the

Declan (32:13)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (32:14)
So but yes, absolutely what you said, but also totally take your own interpretation of what it means. But like I say I was explaining the title to my partner

And he was like, so right, okay, so why why oleander? And I was like, well, it it's so obvious. Like it's really obvious, because Cass, Cassie's is you know, he thinks of himself as poisonous, the gardening connection, and he's just looking at me like really blankly. And I went, No one's gonna get this connection, Jesus. So that I went and wrote the scene, literally

Declan (32:39)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (32:41)
where Jude goes to touch the plant, because I was like, they're not gonna get that. Like, I'm gonna have to put an actual

Declan (32:46)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (32:46)
oleander scene in here. So so it it clicks or so. So I don't know. I think there's probably a hundred.

a hundred ways to take it and

Declan (32:57)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (32:58)
and make it and none of them are wrong, by the way.

Declan (33:01)
I went full English teacher on it. I had like full 40 minutes thinking about it. It was I

Scarlett Drake (33:05)
You've probably a better idea than me. no and I've ruined it.

Declan (33:11)
there was no no, it's actually very in line with what I thought it was, mostly because of

The way that Gideon reacts whenever he enters the greenhouse after you know, dude may or may not have touched it. And he says, like, it's something that my sister must have left behind. She had a thing for leaving dangerous things about, or something along those lines. I was like, that sounds correct, that's your nephew. Yeah, like those dangerous things he's left in.

Scarlett Drake (33:31)
Related Kath, he's talking about Caspian. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Declan (33:37)
left in your home. So Yeah, exactly. That you're gonna have to care for, yeah.

Scarlett Drake (33:37)
I and your house. Yeah, that you're gonna have to I see.

I think that works too. I think that works w wonderful. And I had

Declan (33:45)
But it's okay.

Scarlett Drake (33:46)
a whole idea of as Cass's mum and Gideon's relationship at that point as well. Like what I thought that relationship was like. What i and then I

Tried to sort of weave some of that in and then and it ended just leaving there was so many questions. I thought I'm gonna have to write a second book or something, like to get answer all these questions about Gideon and his sister, because it's it was given Virginia Andrews. Like there was so much family history that you could have dug into with that family, like they were so messed up, like rich, weird rich people. My friend said when she was reading she was beat everything out. She was like, weird rich people, man. They have they're so they're so weird. But yeah.

Silvan (34:22)
But we're intrigued, and I think we're intrigued by weird rich people, aren't we? Like and I think

Scarlett Drake (34:26)
Yes.

Silvan (34:27)
similarly with the title, as a as a new reader, like I'm looking at the title and it's it's not an obvious, like this is what you're going to get. It's it invites this air of mystery and intrigue. And that's what I really liked about the title. Because you

Scarlett Drake (34:40)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (34:41)
could pick it up from a shelf and not know exactly what it's going to be like. But in a really yeah.

Scarlett Drake (34:43)
Be like, what yeah. What what am I getting from this? But also it's just such an evocative word. Like it's

just such a lovely word. There's some words in the English language that are just for me anyway, that just sing and that's that's one of them. And it just fits so many different aspects of that that book. It was perfect. It was a perfect title. If I do say so myself.

Declan (35:02)
Yeah. Suppose

generational trauma doesn't roll off the tongue as easily or doesn't look

Scarlett Drake (35:09)
No. That's a sequel. That's a prequel. That's a prequel I'm writing right now.

Declan (35:14)
So we're gonna commitment to the to the sequel with the mother

Silvan (35:18)
Why specifically a MM retelling of the story?

Declan (35:23)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (35:24)
Was there something that inspired you behind that?

Scarlett Drake (35:28)
Think now that's just that's just the writer. That's just what I'm writing these days. like I just enjoy the genre so much. There's so much to discover in it. There's so many stories that have been told already, but not from that like from that perspective. And

Declan (35:41)
Mm-hmm.

Scarlett Drake (35:41)
I just knew that it could just have another there was just gonna be another layer. There could be or so many different layers on top of the just the rich poor thing. if if if I was writing in queers in the queer

The career genre any like anyway, that's what I was enjoying and that's what I was reading and writing. So it just it just made so much sense. And it like I say, it it unraveled in my head really easily. I could see Jude, I could see Cass and yet never apart from when I was watch at twelve, writing my Peter Andrew fanfight, it was all like I c it n I never imagined it any other way, like with with a a girl with a a girl with a Estella. And also I like the idea of it being different again. It wasn't just a retelling, it was it was also a flip.

of it. It wasn't just Estella and Pep again, it was you know, it was something

Declan (36:31)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (36:32)
something new and refreshing.

Silvan (36:35)
Well, I think it is new and refreshing. And I think it reminded me of I watched and this is years ago, a MM retelling of Roma and Juliet and it was a movie.

Scarlett Drake (36:43)
Mm.

Silvan (36:44)
And there was something so you're familiar with this. And like you said, you're familiar with the with the themes of Great Expectations and and the nineties movie, but there is a refresh like sort of retelling of this story that

Scarlett Drake (36:57)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (36:58)
brings new stuff to the story. And that's I think what I

Scarlett Drake (37:00)
Yeah. Yeah.

Silvan (37:01)
appreciated.

Scarlett Drake (37:02)
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, it just it just worked. Like if you it it just felt like it w it wor like Jude's discovering himself, he's discovering his sexuality, he's discovering there's loads of things that's happening to Jude at that time and that just added another another bit of torture on old Jude. Something else for him to be sad and confused about.

Declan (37:23)
stick to beat you.

But I do think you're right, it does add like fervor depth to what's going on and complexity to what's happening, especially between him and Cass.

Scarlett Drake (37:36)
Mm.

Declan (37:37)
and especially in relation to Cass and the way that he's groomed in the book. And like there's a lot to be said as well about the way that they're talked about, like him and

The way that Cass and Gideon are talked about by sort of like the locals, like they're there's like a slightly homophobic undertone to the way that they're discussed. And I

Scarlett Drake (37:55)
Mm, yeah.

Declan (37:59)
think it also adds to that sort of otherness of them and the way that they're viewed by people. So I thought it was a clever a clever thing to be able to build upon as well. And yeah, I d I I

Scarlett Drake (38:11)
Mm.

Declan (38:11)
did like the choice.

Scarlett Drake (38:15)
Thank you.

Declan (38:16)
But some people were torn about the end of this book, which does not surprise me at all, because there is obviously Cass and Drew pit each other free hell throughout this book. Much of it is at the manipulation of Gideon, but there is that element of like can these two like still make this work?

Scarlett Drake (38:42)
Mm.

Declan (38:43)
were you surprised to find that some people were like, No, I can't see them together anymore or, you know, that no it does kinda work and they they have someone they can chase after? What was your sort of

Scarlett Drake (38:55)
don't think I was surprised. I think I expected people would hate Cass and would hate Cass for like eighty, ninety percent of the book and when I introduced the other possible suitors for Juds, I made sure that they were decent and lovely people because I needed that I needed it to look like Cass is the worst of people in these two or like the nicest guys ever. So I needed there to be that kind of what could Juds

life look like if he just chose one of these guys. Like he would he would be s in such a such a better place. so no, I don't think I was surprised that people st that like didn't want them to be together. And I I think I was surprised like you can come away from that book and be like, I don't think they're gonna work out as a couple. Like there's too much too much has happened. They're gonna break up in a couple of ye like that's not gonna work. There's there's just too much history and stuff there. But I think what I was surprised and that's fair and valid. I think what I was surprised about though was just some of the

the lack of empathy for Cass towards the end. Like some of the rev I don't don't read a lot of reviews, but just sometimes you're in comments, like your like your video, like you'll see people making comment, he never deserved him or he deserved what he got. That that sort of stuff like really shocked me. I was like, this is a kid. He was groomed by his uncle and then he was like he was fifteen. Like he was sixteen when he when he made these choices based on what he

The situation that he would like it was that was wild to me at the end that people still had no empathy for him after knowing what he'd gone through and knowing like he'd made this effort to change. He I don't know, that surprised me. That really scared me actually. Like, who are you people that you don't have empathy for this this guy? but they were always gonna end up together. For me, it was always gonna be them at the end. So no, I think the answer to my question is no. I'm not surprised that people were torn.

And a lot of people wanted them to say him with Nathan or And I think that's why I threw in like Nathan's happy. Nathan's not like off, you know, mourning dude or mourning that relationship. And I think everyone got the ending that they deserved. and I think it's more of a story about they went off and they changed and then they came back together. Cause Cass is so right, they could not have been together at that point when

they were kids, like it wouldn't have worked 'cause Cass was a totally different person.

Declan (41:19)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (41:19)
I feel I've said too much and I'm gonna ruin I'm gonna ruin this book for you now. By over by

Silvan (41:23)
Not at all. And it's been

Scarlett Drake (41:25)
over

Silvan (41:27)
I think it's really interesting because

Scarlett Drake (41:28)
Overshooting.

Silvan (41:28)
as an author, what's it like for you? Because you, you know, you spent so much time writing this book and then you release it unto the world and everyone has their own interpretation on it. And especially they have their own interpretation on these characters that you write. What how do you feel as an author when people either misinterpret a character or, you know, take it in a different way than you sort of imagined, like and they almost have this relationship with a character that you don't have. What's that like for you?

Scarlett Drake (41:56)
Mm.

I think but I probably blame myself. I'm I'm kinda like with these with these people that don't forgive Cass Cass by the end and still think he's you know, the devil spawn or whatever, I think, maybe I didn't do enough good job at the end of like demonstrating that he he deserved this love or maybe I should have written him differently towards the end or I had a lot of people saying he didn't grovel as much. I'm like, this guy has been through hell like is he gonna come and grovel? Like what do you know that like everything you know about Cass, he's not he's not gonna grovel.

So I think some of it's maybe on me, but I also think just people people interpret art in different ways and that's totally their that's how art works. Like as soon as it's out there you can you can interpret it interpret the title how you want. It doesn't really belong to me anymore. the characters will always belong to me, but yeah, how you read the book and interpret the book or what you get out of it is that's on you. I might not agree with your interpretation, but it's it you know, I'm not gonna

Get angry about it.

Declan (43:00)
I think I mentioned as well towards the end of my original review of the book that I know some people are not going to they're gonna have a different read of the ending to what maybe I

Scarlett Drake (43:13)
Mm.

Declan (43:13)
might have read. But that's because people are coming from different backgrounds, different experiences, sometimes different traumas where they will relate too strongly to a character or they'll see too much of a character in someone they know or someone in their life and that colours their view of it.

Scarlett Drake (43:30)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (43:32)
which I think with characters like Cass and Jude, who are like quite deeply flawed people and who do make really big mistakes, there is like some people have a very emotional reaction to it and a very strong

Scarlett Drake (43:45)
Mm.

Declan (43:46)
reaction to it. which is fair, but it's just that's where you're I think you get so much a variety of opinions, which is great because you know

The more you are able to take in and sort of hear and you know, that's a wealth of experience that you're learning from people. That's that's all sort of you know, a better way of understanding. So yeah, it didn't surprise me at all that people were gonna

Scarlett Drake (44:14)
No, no.

Declan (44:15)
be like that, but I do think it's just because there's such a variety of the human experience that some person can read something and take something completely different away from it than you might. So no, I wasn't surprised.

Scarlett Drake (44:28)
Same. Yeah, same. I mean, I needed Cass to be awful. He was an awful like he was awful. Like that was the the idea of him in my h Estella is awful. She's not a good person. She but

Declan (44:39)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (44:39)
there are reasons th she's shaped by, you know, her environment. And Cass was sh also shaped by his environment and he was he was awful at the start of the book and for a big portion of the book. But I think when we dip in, certainly in part two and we see we see the shifts in his personality and

that lead us to the cast that he is, I think, at the end. I think it does show that he he was a also he was a child. We all like we

Declan (45:07)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (45:07)
f I think a lot of people forget when you're a child, you're not your brain's not even fully formed. So you're not even making decisions based on like an anything rational or Now l lot of people reading this book are not children and they're making they're thinking about these characters like they're they're grown adults and so yeah.

I needed him to be er not irredeemable and I don't think he was an irredeemable character. My person's my personal opinion. but you you guys can can think something different, of course.

Declan (45:38)
Yeah. And that kind of brings me on to my next question. I would read like a whole different, like, load of different MM romances and one big trope

Scarlett Drake (45:47)
Mm.

Declan (45:48)
is like the bully trope or enemies to lovers, is obviously Oleander would fall into that at this point.

Scarlett Drake (45:53)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Declan (45:56)
What I find is that some authors really struggle to walk the line between these characters have hurt each other too much to justify being the ever in the end. And I recently said it about a book

raising Arizona or was it Raising Arizona

Scarlett Drake (46:11)
Okay.

Declan (46:12)
along those lines? where like someone had broken someone else's arm or so on, and the way it was described, it was so visceral and it was done out of like maliciousness, and there was just like a whole the whole vibe around it didn't work. But by the end I was like, no. No, no, this is not gonna work. How do

Scarlett Drake (46:30)
Mm, yeah.

Declan (46:33)
you as a writer watch

that line because it's very tough whenever you're doing it with a story like this where you have someone who is quite unlikable for a huge chunk of it.

Scarlett Drake (46:45)
think if we understand why the character is the way he is and why he's doing these things or some of the some of the stuff that shaped his personality. Like i was it obvious why this guy was breaking his arm and is it something that you could you could understand like I think I again that that'd be down to the individual reader whether their line might be completely different from my line. I think Cass

Cass did show change towards the end of the book and he that he had grown and changed as a character and and reckoned with a lot of stuff. So I think for me it's if we see that, you know, that growth in a character, if the guy is the same guy he was at the start of the book and he's still there's no reckoning, I think for me I I I would be like, Why the this is never gonna Yeah, this is never gonna work.

If the f if the people are fundamentally the same people that they were at the start of the book and they were enemies, then how is that gonna translate into a a successful relationship?

Declan (47:44)
Mm-hmm.

Scarlett Drake (47:45)
it's hard, but but it will be different. And there it is different because there's still a lot of people that don't think Cass and Jude are gonna be together or should have been together. Actually, so do you not think that they should they should have been together actually when you said you were one of the guys that one of the people that was torn about the ending?

Declan (48:02)
No, I think that they are going to be together. I think at that point they had been through so much and they had such a deep understanding of where both of them were coming from. I

Scarlett Drake (48:13)
Mm, mm-hmm.

Declan (48:15)
think whenever Jude was able to finally understand Cass and finally understand what motivated him, he just seemed the sort of broken person behind all the decisions that were made. And I

Scarlett Drake (48:25)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Declan (48:26)
think they would have like a journey of almost rehabilitation for Cass, as in trying to get him to

understand what's normal and what's not, what he's been led to believe his entire life is appropriate and what isn't appropriate.

Scarlett Drake (48:37)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (48:39)
Because Cass does a lot of things which are incredibly misguided, but it's a complete reckoning of how he was raised. and how he was raised is not very nice. So he's gonna have basic understandings that don't meld with real life, that don't that an ordinary healthy person would not consider to be normal.

And there will be like a breaking down of that and having to readjust to that. And I think Jude,

Scarlett Drake (49:06)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (49:06)
with the love that he has for Cass, is a good sort of support pillar to help him work through that. And also an incredible amount of therapy. Stupid amount of therapy. But now

Scarlett Drake (49:16)
Yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Declan (49:19)
that he doesn't need to hide behind this sort of mask of indifference and cruelty, they can just enjoy being with each other.

Which is kinda what was driving Jude to always keep him within his mind 'cause he knew that

Scarlett Drake (49:36)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (49:37)
there were there was something worth saving here. And now that that

Scarlett Drake (49:40)
Yeah.

Declan (49:40)
part is fully flushed out and doesn't need to hide anymore, there's kinda no reason

Scarlett Drake (49:43)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (49:44)
not to if as long as Cass gets his gets his ducks in a row.

Scarlett Drake (49:51)
Agree.

They're gonna be so happy. Yeah, they are right. You are right. Yeah. They're gonna be happy. They are gonna be happy. there's a couple of little bonus scenes. There's a little bonus scene on my website that you can read for free. it's like a little Christmas scene where they're super happy and they get a kitten. They're they're fine. They're gonna be they're gonna be good.

Declan (50:18)
I see.

Scarlett Drake (50:19)
Cats make everything better. Mm.

Declan (50:21)
That's do make everything better. Mine was

well, except for sleep. Mine was screaming at me at four o'clock in the morning. So she was last night, so

Scarlett Drake (50:28)
yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Declan (50:31)
So there's a few very tough themes in your book. obviously there is grooming, which is a lot of where Cass's issues come from. sort of familial abuse, generational trauma.

and also violence towards one another, especially in the case of Cass and Jude in his dorm room. How do you approach writing topics like that? Like what are you sort of thinking in your head whenever you're like, Okay, I'm gonna include this, like how am I gonna go about this?

Scarlett Drake (51:08)
Mm-hmm. I think what I'm thinking is why am I writing this scene? Why does it need why is it important? And what like would this book would it s would I still be able to get over the same message without this scene? So like if I took that scene out, the the dorm room scene, which actually is probably one of my favourite scenes in the whole book, sp especially the part before the physical part, where they were th they were kind of doing that.

the audio on that is just blows my mind when I listen to George do that audio of that 'cause it he just captures them. I can see the whole thing in my head. It's I gives me goose pumps. and I I think there probably is an argument that we could have just skipped to the next morning and we could have just thought he could have just thought back about what had happened. And I I did I didn't make the physical scene very lot like it was it w I kept that as short as I felt like I could keep it

Declan (52:07)
Mm-hmm.

Scarlett Drake (52:07)
By still

keeping what needed to happen the next morning, which was the bruising. Like he needed to see that he needed to think that the bruises were from him. He need like that's I don't know how I would have done that without actually demonstrating what that encounter had been like. so I think, yeah, if I if I know why I'm writing it, I know what his purpose is and that it's important to tell this part of the story. The grooming is more difficult because I I I did play around with that for a long time. Like how how

I knew there was gonna be a domestic violence situation. but I think it made more sense towards the end and certainly with the reckoning between Jude and Gideon and the very last scene in London, it just felt like it would have a bigger impact if we could see that Gideon and s had in some way made this hap. Like that would have explained

the hatred that he had for him at the start of the prologue to just tie that back to like why did he hate him so much? Why it felt important to then add that but also keep it ambiguous enough that I didn't really want to touch it too heavily. Like I wanted to again

Declan (53:11)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (53:12)
leave it up to the reader. When do you think this thing starts is Cass telling the truth when he says nothing happened until he was sixteen or whatever. so yeah, I think for me it's why am I writing it? Does it still work if I could just take it out?

It's not something I particularly enjoy reading in books.

Declan (53:29)
Mm-hmm.

Scarlett Drake (53:30)
A Little Life. I resent what that book did to me. how it made me feel, like, still to this day, traumatized me to my

Declan (53:42)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (53:42)
core. so that'll not that that should be a barometer of trauma in books, but

I I could not see any reason for a lot of what what was in that book and why it needed to be so graphic and so traumatic to the reader. I feel like that was I have very strong feelings about that book. Very I can see you do as well, someone you should be shaking your head there, like, mm-hmm Triggered

Silvan (54:02)
I I really

enjoyed the book and in in a f in in a way,

Declan (54:04)
You're preaching to the choir.

Silvan (54:07)
when you know, when you say the word Jude, I always go back to a little life in a way.

Scarlett Drake (54:14)
Yeah. And I

Silvan (54:15)
because of what the characters' names

Scarlett Drake (54:17)
read that book whilst I was writing Oleander. Yes. It's two tr so I I was like maybe halfway through writing Oleander, I think, when I read A Little Life, and I was seriously thinking about changing Jude's name because I I was so traumatized by that book. But in my head he was Jude already, and I was like, I can't change his name. He would be a different guy. I have him in my head as Jude. But

Declan (54:39)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (54:39)
it across it crossed my mind because that book just I loved I love her writing. She is a

Gorgeous writer. I love Two Paradise so much. It was like one of my favourite reads last year. Gorgeous writer. I've re I've read all her books, but that book just did something to me on a molecular level. It's stole something.

Declan (54:55)
Yeah. I had

yeah, I was the same. I had a really strong reaction to that book and I

Scarlett Drake (55:02)
Yeah.

Declan (55:03)
again the author, I acknowledge that my like she's very, very talented. Very, very talented, really good at

Scarlett Drake (55:09)
Yeah.

Declan (55:11)
evoking emotion, Yeah,

Scarlett Drake (55:12)
Yeah.

Declan (55:12)
when I read that book, I was just

so angry at the depiction of cruelty in it and

Scarlett Drake (55:20)
Yeah, yeah.

Declan (55:21)
felt it was like unnecessary to take it to that level. Like

Scarlett Drake (55:24)
As soon as you thought yes,

there was i you can have what you c it just kept getting worse and when you think it could not get any worse for this character and and I know I like I thought about that when you were

Declan (55:35)
Pull my beer.

Scarlett Drake (55:36)
you c yeah, exactly. Like how how do we make it even worse? And no no no you thought that was no we're doing and the extent of detail it was just I could not see

Declan (55:44)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (55:45)
any reason for the the level of detail that was included in that.

I got

Declan (55:49)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (55:50)
that he was I actually saw the stage play as well and that was that was and it almost didn't go but we had tickets and just yeah, traumatized me so much. So I hope that answers your qu I hope there's a question that's answered in there somewhere.

Declan (55:59)
Yeah. So with that Yeah it's it's

that yeah. So basically if it's serving a purpose within the story, good, but we'll keep it not very graphic, more suggestive, leave it up to the reader to interpret. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can see that.

Scarlett Drake (56:14)
Yeah, yeah, I would say s yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I would say so.

Declan (56:20)
It's funny we have the exact same opinion on the light.

Scarlett Drake (56:24)
Yeah.

I remember standing at the sink. I I'll never get this out of my head. Standing at the sink, washing dishes, and after reading like one I can't remember which scene it was, and just bawling my eyes out, like actual like grief, actual grief

Declan (56:40)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (56:41)
from how traumatized and sad I was for this character. And I think we just obviously feel books very, very deeply. I had

a friend who read it and did not cry and just thought, you know, she was just like kinda bored or whatever. And I was just like, my god.

Declan (56:53)
Yeah. Like what do you mean?

Scarlett Drake (56:55)
So yeah,

Declan (56:57)
now you might enjoy this question now because I'm gonna ask you who your favorite character is in your own book, but also who's your favorite character that you wrote in the book?

Scarlett Drake (57:11)
Can you guess who's my favourite character who do you who do you

Declan (57:11)
Or your favourite character to write in the book?

Scarlett Drake (57:13)
think who do you think my favourite character is from Oleander?

Declan (57:17)
I would say Luke or Cass. It's gonna be one of two.

Scarlett Drake (57:20)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (57:21)
You're either gonna be like, I really like writing the friendly, lovely guy that I just think is great or I'm gonna really love writing this really tragic character. I f I think that's one of those.

Scarlett Drake (57:34)
Cass is my favourite character. because he's just so complex and so complicated and he was so cutting and he was so smart. I hope he w but

Declan (57:44)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (57:44)
Gideon Gideon was probably my favourite character to write, because I don't know anyone like Gideon or who speaks like Gideon or who breathes like Gideon. So every time I was writing him it felt like I was like anything could happen. Like what is this guy gonna say or do next? He was just wild, like so much fun. Such a

Such a bizarre such a fun character to write. And again, the way George captures him in the audio just blows my mind because it's exactly how I imagined him. so yeah, Cass, my favourite character Cass is the best my favourite character that I've ever written from any book. I just love him so much, you know. Yeah, I do love him. and I like Felix from Lemerence as well. He's probably my but never asked about Limerance, but he's probably my second favourite character I've written. Luke is just the best man ever though.

I pr I probably know a couple of

Declan (58:33)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (58:34)
people like look I probably know a couple of looks but down to earth and it was

Declan (58:37)
Looks books a green flag.

Scarlett Drake (58:41)
look green is a green flag. Yes

Declan (58:41)
Sea of red flags.

Scarlett Drake (58:44)
yes Yeah he's just what a guy Everyone deserves a look.

Declan (58:52)
Yeah, a hundred percent. obviously we've had a good talk about the book now and you're sort of thinking about the elements that you wrote and how people reacted to it. If you were to go back now and rewrite an element of the book, is there anything you would change or would you just keep it the same?

Scarlett Drake (59:11)
Hmm. No, it's perfect. The perfect book. No, I'm joking. There's a couple of little things I would tidy up, a couple of little inconsistencies that I notice when I I listen back. Because I'll do listen to the audio every now and again, just to remind myself, the writer that I that I used to be, that I was in twenty twenty four. No, joking. My best is yet to come. I don't think so. I I don't think there's anything that I dis

I had someone pick pick up on the fact that the architecture of David will house would not be possible it would not exist in on Jersey, so I should change the kind of stone that was used in the

Declan (59:49)
Thank you.

Scarlett Drake (59:50)
So I might change that to make it more believable. but no, I'm fairly happy with the book. I'm fairly happy with it. Is that is

Declan (1:00:00)
So

Scarlett Drake (1:00:00)
that really?

Declan (1:00:01)
basically your your research on Jersey quarries and house building wasn't quite obvious enough.

Scarlett Drake (1:00:09)
Everything else was on point as well. Like I because I I went there, loved it. It was so beautiful, very picturesque. But Dev Row House I just made up that doesn't exist. But everything else existed, like the beach and the little roads down to it, and the cottage where Jude and Nathan stay. That was all real. But they had to pick me up on that one lazy house that was from my head that didn't exist. But yeah, more research required.

Declan (1:00:36)
at the minute I seen something on social media that suggested that you might be writing some sort of Dracula retailing. Would you like to talk a little bit about that?

Scarlett Drake (1:00:48)
She is. She is. She is writing a gay gay R, because Dracula is pretty gay already, I would argue. it's pretty queer-coded. So she's writing that. I don't know if you know do you if it's if it I talk about it, I've talked about it a few times on Instagram, not so much on TikTok because I'm not as prolific on there. I don't really know how to work TikTok, so most of my stuff is on Instagram, but yeah, it's dark. It's

Still historical, but I'm setting it around post World War One, kind of like nineteen twenties-ish. Not quite the depression, like but murky, kind of postwar y. a lot of guys with kind of PTSD kicking about from the from the war. it's it's horror. It's gonna be proper horror. So it's my first time writing any kind of

and it's I'm absolutely loving it so far. It is so

Declan (1:01:51)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (1:01:51)
camp, so melodramatic, like just think like get loads of Gideons around, like everyone's a Gideon, like just speak like speaking like Gideon. So it's kind of a mashup between Dracula and Nosferatu, I would say. Again, probably

Declan (1:02:06)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (1:02:07)
I did read Dracula only recently, very recently, but when I seen Nosferatu, the Robert Eggers film, like two years ago or whatever, I thought

Wow, this I could make I can make this key. I can make this queer. I could I could really do something with this. The same faint same way I did with nineteen nineties Great Expectations. then I rewatched the nineties Dracula again and realised like how much of that is not in the book when I read the book. I was like, this whole love story between the Count and Mina is like completely Francis Ford Coppla's imagination.

Declan (1:02:37)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (1:02:39)
so yeah, I've taken a bit of each I've taken a the bo it'll be quite epistol epistolary

kind of layout, lots of diary entries, trying to keep in with the tr the original. But yeah, it's gonna be dark, a lot of blood, a lot of it's gonna be quite scary. So yeah.

Declan (1:02:56)
That's interesting.

I didn't think you would go the full horror route, but now I'm even more intrigued. Yeah, yeah.

Scarlett Drake (1:03:01)
The full dark, yeah. Yeah,

you're g you thought I was scary before, just you eight Sir Yeah.

Declan (1:03:08)
Is this gonna be as emotionally damaging?

Scarlett Drake (1:03:11)
I it's not gonna have a happy ending, if I can say that. So So yeah. But

Declan (1:03:16)
interesting. Interesting.

Scarlett Drake (1:03:18)
I mean I don't know yet. I've got two possible endings and I'm fighting it out at the moment with my alpha reader. She really wants me to go in this direction, and I'm like, yeah, but what about so we're we're kind of fighting that out as to how I'll just

'Cause you I don't plan. I don't plan books, I just sit down and just write them, so we'll see. But it needs

Declan (1:03:35)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (1:03:35)
to be obviously within the realms of like within what happens in the book, those two movies, so it'll it'll not be completely like out of left field. So yeah. It's gonna be fun. It's fun. Very fun.

Declan (1:03:49)
Can't wait for that one.

Scarlett Drake (1:03:51)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (1:03:52)
now, do you have any advice for any upcoming MM romance offers that are trying to maybe get into writing or maybe even start self-publishing? Do you have any advice for them?

Scarlett Drake (1:04:05)
Are you trying to get into self par you're writing a book, Declan? Selvin, you guys writing a book?

Declan (1:04:12)
No, maybe maybe one day whenever I

Scarlett Drake (1:04:14)
maybe one day. Yeah.

Declan (1:04:15)
have like time. But no, not at the moment. Not on ever.

Scarlett Drake (1:04:20)
can never that's not a

device. I mean probably don't spend twelve years in the world on a S on Wattpad writing for free would be my my advice but also write just bloody sit down and write write as much as you can write even if you don't think is a full story and it's just a scene you have that you can't stop thinking about write that out like just like write don't be a scare don't be scared of like

doing a terrible first draft because like my first drafts are horrendous still to this day. let people read it, take take feedback,

just just weigh up, like don't don't assume if one person hates it, everyone's gonna hate your book. It's

Declan (1:05:02)
Yeah, take a little pinch of salt.

Scarlett Drake (1:05:04)
just have a bit of confidence in it, yeah. With a pinch of salt, I that's what I was trying to say. Yeah.

Declan (1:05:11)
Solid.

Silvan (1:05:11)
I was just trying to think of as you were speaking and how you was talking about sort of just right.

Would you go with write what you know or write what you sort of think your audience wants to like read? Like yeah, I was just wondering about that.

Scarlett Drake (1:05:28)
Mm. N

I would say not the last one. Don't I wouldn't write what you think your audience wants to read because

It n it needs be what you want to write rather than what they want to read because y you'll get you'll lose interest in it halfway through. Like I have done that in the past. where people have asked me to write a certain thing, like a sequel to something, and I've been like so inspired by all these people wanting the thing that I've done the thing and then just lost interest. Like if you it needs to be and it doesn't need to be what you know. I mean, I don't know anything about like two l teenage boys from Jersey, but I had a I had a dream

I d had an idea. I don't know much about vampires, but no, write what interests you and what excites you and what you you think you'll have the most fun with. I would say. Yeah.

Declan (1:06:22)
Yeah, we got solid advice.

Scarlett Drake (1:06:25)
Yeah, actually the BBC were in touch and they want to adapt Oleander. Does it did it did I not say that at the start of the call? No. No I'm joking. I'm joking. Can you imagine though? How amazing would that be?

Declan (1:06:37)
Don't play with him like that, I think.

Silvan (1:06:38)
One can hope.

Scarlett Drake (1:06:40)
how amazing would that be? Netflix had been in touch. it would make such an amazing like BBC like wouldn't that? Netflix money. god.

Declan (1:06:45)
It would be so good.

Silvan (1:06:46)
Get some Netflix money, Scarlet. You'd give up all your jobs.

Declan (1:06:49)
Yeah. Mini series.

Scarlett Drake (1:06:52)
Although I'd

I probably wouldn't get much money. I feel like they would try and they would try and

Declan (1:06:56)
Wheels on the

Scarlett Drake (1:06:57)
like Yeah, they would they would give me some I would take it. Listen, someone w I would give them it for free. Netflix wanted Ollie and her to just take it, make it. It'd be so lovely. It could be six episodes. Like normal people, just really classy and sorta yeah. That's my dream. Please

Silvan (1:07:14)
You know we'll manifest if any execs from

like Netflix or Prime or whatever other streaming service there is out there, you know, pick up this book because it is so beautifully written and it is so rich.

Scarlett Drake (1:07:25)
No, thank you.

Silvan (1:07:27)
And it's brought so much joy to the you know, the readers that have read it, but also a lot of angst reading it. And it's

Declan (1:07:34)
So

Silvan (1:07:36)
been such a pleasure to actually read.

And so when you look at your work, do you imagine Oleander on the big screen, Scarlett?

Scarlett Drake (1:07:45)
Yeah, big screen or small screen would be fine. I'd be I'd be happy with either. But I think, yeah, I I do tend to visualize a lot of these scenes in my head b when I'm writing them or before I'm writing them. So I have very clear kind of a very clear idea of what the rooms look like or what they're what they're wearing, what they're yeah, just the way they're standing, the way the light is. So I think I just yeah, I'm a bit I watch so much too many movies and TV for that not to like affect.

how I write, like very visually. And it always really helps me as well if

Declan (1:08:18)
Mm.

Scarlett Drake (1:08:18)
I've got an image of the character as close as I can get to the character. so I spend hours like scrolling Pinterest trying to find just the right cast or the right dude for

Declan (1:08:31)
For the inspiration, yeah.

Scarlett Drake (1:08:32)
Yeah,

for the inspiration. Yeah.

Declan (1:08:36)
I like that. It's a real interesting way of writing your book as well. I know some people like

Scarlett Drake (1:08:42)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (1:08:43)
aren't very visual in the way that they write, and I can't imagine doing it any other way. If that makes sense. Like if you're not perfectly picturing

Scarlett Drake (1:08:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Declan (1:08:50)
what's happening in your mind, you're not playing it out as it's happening. I don't I it's interesting they know maybe I'll ask another author at a different point, like what way they do it, if they do it differently, how they sort of imagine it

Scarlett Drake (1:09:00)
Yeah, if it's a visual thing.

Declan (1:09:02)
then, if it's yeah, if it's like a visual thing.

Yeah, no, that's an interesting one.

Scarlett Drake (1:09:08)
I've definitely asked authors that I've chatted to, like, did you have an ideal person in mind for this character? And they'll be like, No, no, not really, and I'm I'm just like blown away by that 'cause I always have a really, really clear image of w of what they look like or near

Declan (1:09:22)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (1:09:22)
as damn it to what they look like. Yeah.

Silvan (1:09:25)
I've always wanted to ask an author this, what are you currently reading?

Declan (1:09:29)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (1:09:30)
good question. So right now on the side of my bed I have a book called Ithaca by is it Claire North? because we we've been because we were going to see the Odyssey, my partner picked this up for me. So it's it's really sort of Penelope's POV of the Odyssey. So like she was languishing at home while he was, you know, trying to get home. So she's got all these suitors and I don't know if you know the story. Did you I don't know. I don't know how much of the story you know.

Declan (1:09:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (1:09:58)
So

that's what I'm reading right now. which is really good. Really good. And I think I'm gonna read Song of Achilles again because I'm now in my Greek tragic tr

Declan (1:10:09)
Mm-hmm.

Scarlett Drake (1:10:10)
Greek tragedy phase. Yeah, it's just I mean it's probably like one of my fav it's yeah, it's probably my favourite book of all time. I know you

Declan (1:10:17)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (1:10:18)
never asked that, but that's that's free. You get that for free. Yeah.

Declan (1:10:20)
There you go, that's that's a free one. It's funny,

I get a lot of that sort of type of storytelling from Oleander. That sort of Song of Achilles sort of yeah.

Scarlett Drake (1:10:30)
Mm, you said that. That

was the biggest compliment. That was the bit that made me go. So that was thank you. Thank you for that. 'Cause that's

Declan (1:10:39)
But that's what feels like. It

it has that complexity and it has that heart and it has those like really complicated emotions and the prose as well is really well written. And I can see a lot of the Song of Achilles in Oleander. It has that sort of tragedy to it.

Scarlett Drake (1:10:53)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (1:10:54)
I just yeah, I just really I think that's why I also dealt with it so quickly, is because I read Song of Achilles as well and I was like, this is kinda like I'm getting a similar vibe here, I'm getting a similar sort of style here.

Scarlett Drake (1:11:05)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (1:11:06)
I don't know

if you've read Cersei as well.

Scarlett Drake (1:11:09)
I have, yeah, I have. Great.

Declan (1:11:11)
Right. That's a great book.

Scarlett Drake (1:11:12)
I think yeah, I think Madeline Miller's pr like she's her writing is her writing style is just stunning. Like that really simple but powerful prose that she just keeps everything really no no faffin around some t like with

Declan (1:11:26)
No.

Scarlett Drake (1:11:27)
loads and loads of adjectives or descriptions. She just has a real light touch to her prose that's gorgeous.

Declan (1:11:34)
Yeah.

Scarlett Drake (1:11:34)
But Gianna Gahara does not, but is still an amazing writer. she's she's very descriptive and she she she's got a gorgeous prose as well. I don't know which I prefer, but

Declan (1:11:47)
So we're all madeline mowers for fans there.

Scarlett Drake (1:11:47)
Both are gorgeous. To to be anywhere

yeah. We love we love our female yeah, we love our female female authors.

Declan (1:11:56)
Scarlett, your

Scarlett Drake (1:11:57)
Yeah.

Declan (1:11:58)
social media, do you want to promote that or is there anything you want to promote?

Scarlett Drake (1:12:05)
you can sign up for my Patreon if you're an Oleander lover. There is some free bonus material on there that you may want to just sign up for the month, get some free some bonus audio as well. of George just reading some of the bonus scenes. I think there's maybe about four, four or five bonus Oleander scenes on there. I won't be offended if you just sign up, read them, and then cancel.

Silvan (1:12:26)
Yeah, she's

Scarlett Drake (1:12:27)
That's fine. Because I know there's a lot of Oleander people out there that

Declan (1:12:29)
Mm-hmm.

Scarlett Drake (1:12:30)
got a lot comfort from those bonus scenes who were like still really hard and needed them. So just from a therapy point of view, you might want to do that. but yeah, you'll mainly get me on Instagram under Scarlet Drake. That's mainly where I am.

Declan (1:12:45)
Right. Thank you very much for joining us, Scarlet. it's been

Scarlett Drake (1:12:48)
You're welcome.

Declan (1:12:49)
a real pleasure. I've loved talking about the book with you. finally glad to be able to put a face to the name that has been tormenting me and giving me an existential crisis after finishing one of your books. So

Scarlett Drake (1:13:04)
That's

the biggest compliment. That's the biggest compliment. I love it.

Declan (1:13:09)
No, I'm terrified of what Dracula's

Scarlett Drake (1:13:10)
Thank you.

Declan (1:13:10)
gonna be like.

Scarlett Drake (1:13:12)
Mm you should be terrified. Yeah, you should be.

Declan (1:13:17)
Well, with that warning, thank you very much everyone for joining us as well for this episode. If you enjoyed this, make sure you like, share, subscribe. also check out our book club that's on Fable. It's the Long Game Pod Book Club. And on that, we are currently reading some of Alex Cross's books. really, really fun ones at the moment. The one we're reading is about a college volleyball player and his boyfriend who has a drug addiction.

So that gets very, very interesting. I would highly recommend buying that one out and joining us for that. But that's it for now. Thank you very much for joining us and we'll see you next time.