1 00:00:05,474 --> 00:00:07,014 Good morning Grid Connections listeners. 2 00:00:07,014 --> 00:00:13,256 This is the podcast where we explore the people, policies and innovation shaping the future of energy and transportation. 3 00:00:13,256 --> 00:00:15,397 And today we're talking with Albert Gore. 4 00:00:15,397 --> 00:00:25,099 He goes by Al and I know you might be thinking of a different Al Gore, but let me tell you this conversation and his influence are equally important, especially in the realm of EVs 5 00:00:25,099 --> 00:00:25,449 today. 6 00:00:25,449 --> 00:00:31,481 So Albert Gore is the executive director of ZETA, the Zero Emission Transportation Association. 7 00:00:31,481 --> 00:00:34,892 We'd actually had Joe back on from, who is the? 8 00:00:34,892 --> 00:00:38,383 former executive director on Great Connections a couple years back. 9 00:00:38,383 --> 00:00:46,135 And so was really great to catch up with them, especially with all the new policies and things going on and hear about how they're at the forefront advocating for all sorts of 10 00:00:46,135 --> 00:00:51,887 different national policies to accelerate the transition to 100 % electric vehicle sales in the United States. 11 00:00:52,047 --> 00:01:00,520 So in this episode, we unpack ZETA's ambitious goals and discuss how their members want to reshape the automotive industry, supercharge EV adoption, and revolutionize the charging 12 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:01,670 infrastructure. 13 00:01:01,752 --> 00:01:08,426 We also examined the recent US election outcomes and their implications for clean transportation policies and the broader energy landscape. 14 00:01:08,426 --> 00:01:14,670 Albert shares his perspectives on the key legislative and industry shifts needed to make an all electric future a reality. 15 00:01:14,670 --> 00:01:17,472 And overall, I left the conversation being really optimistic. 16 00:01:17,472 --> 00:01:18,773 So I think it's going to be a great listen. 17 00:01:18,773 --> 00:01:20,894 So I hope you're all excited for it too. 18 00:01:21,095 --> 00:01:28,539 So whether you're an EV enthusiast, policymaker, or just curious about the road ahead, this episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss. 19 00:01:28,579 --> 00:01:31,751 And if you find this conversation valuable, we have a simple 20 00:01:32,147 --> 00:01:37,434 Share this episode with at least one friend, colleague, or fellow EV advocate who would enjoy it as well. 21 00:01:37,434 --> 00:01:42,020 And while you're at it, please leave us a pause or review on your favorite podcast platform. 22 00:01:42,020 --> 00:01:44,103 It really helps us spread the word. 23 00:01:44,103 --> 00:01:46,345 With that, enjoy. 24 00:01:51,517 --> 00:01:55,077 Al, I just want to say thank you for coming on today. 25 00:01:55,077 --> 00:02:02,877 And for those of you who might be listening who aren't familiar with ZETA and some of great work you guys are doing, can you just give us a little background on yourself and 26 00:02:02,877 --> 00:02:04,013 the program? 27 00:02:05,306 --> 00:02:07,637 Sure, and thanks so much for having me, Chase. 28 00:02:08,038 --> 00:02:15,394 You've got such a fantastic platform here and really appreciate the opportunity to come and talk with you. 29 00:02:15,394 --> 00:02:25,931 So ZETA is an industry-backed coalition of over 50 companies across the EV, battery, and mineral supply chain. 30 00:02:26,032 --> 00:02:32,406 We also have a number of electric utilities in our membership, but 31 00:02:33,004 --> 00:02:41,929 The purpose of ZETA is really to advance electrification and everything that comes along with it. 32 00:02:42,770 --> 00:02:52,657 So, you know, we have lithium mining and refining companies, battery manufacturing and recycling. 33 00:02:52,657 --> 00:02:58,220 We have EVOEMs, both light duty and medium and heavy duty. 34 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,399 charging companies and again, electric utilities. 35 00:03:02,399 --> 00:03:18,012 it's a huge sector spanning several different industries, but all focused on making this transition and all these investments being made in the United States successful. 36 00:03:18,861 --> 00:03:19,802 No, that's, that's great. 37 00:03:19,802 --> 00:03:21,773 I've definitely been following your team's work for quite a while. 38 00:03:21,773 --> 00:03:33,970 And I guess, we talk about all those topics you just discussed on this podcast, but, obviously within there, that there's a lot of kind of fine, kind of minutia and how these 39 00:03:33,970 --> 00:03:37,552 all different things work together in the kind of larger ecosystem. 40 00:03:38,133 --> 00:03:44,336 but for those that might not be familiar, how ZETA kind of fits into that puzzle. 41 00:03:44,336 --> 00:03:45,887 Can you kind of share like. 42 00:03:45,937 --> 00:03:51,286 What some of these companies come to ZETA for or if you are a utility, how do you kind of help them? 43 00:03:51,286 --> 00:03:59,317 How do you help these EV manufacturers or mining companies just to kind of give listeners a little better perspective in the larger scheme of things? 44 00:04:00,900 --> 00:04:02,999 Yeah, well, you know. 45 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:26,348 A lot of our member companies exist in their specific industry, I think with the exception probably of the EV automakers who really, some of course have stationary storage or 46 00:04:26,348 --> 00:04:27,849 renewable energy as well. 47 00:04:27,849 --> 00:04:29,380 having 48 00:04:34,808 --> 00:04:48,824 mining and battery manufacturing and the electricity supply industry sort of as disparate members of a group that, you know, always working towards, you know, a smoother adoption 49 00:04:48,824 --> 00:04:50,534 curve for electric vehicles. 50 00:04:51,295 --> 00:05:03,400 it really kind of, diluted, think the, the potential collective influence that a group like ZETA could bring to bear, specifically when 51 00:05:03,492 --> 00:05:15,617 there are big national policies being debated, either being put together or, you know, existing policy being debated on the merits, which is sort of the situation we're in now. 52 00:05:16,837 --> 00:05:29,703 But it's very helpful to have a lot of well-established companies in addition to a lot of new companies that have sprung up over the last two decades and many, you know, within the 53 00:05:29,703 --> 00:05:33,354 last five to seven years with 54 00:05:33,354 --> 00:05:46,988 really compelling business models, but not necessarily the built up advocacy and influence capacity that a lot of the incumbent industries have. 55 00:05:47,488 --> 00:06:02,874 ZETA has been a convener of the aggregate employment base and influence of all of these companies with really a single unifying 56 00:06:02,874 --> 00:06:18,937 goal, is to help make this economic transition in the manufacturing sector of the United States, that infrastructure build out, and also the policy formation that comes along with 57 00:06:18,937 --> 00:06:22,560 that, a smoother process, a more well-informed process. 58 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:32,098 And it helps to have companies that have no hesitation about moving as quickly as demand or the market. 59 00:06:32,804 --> 00:06:49,143 needs the industry to move in this direction, to, give those answers because, know, there are, sometimes, you know, whether it's with legacy automakers or, folks who make other 60 00:06:49,143 --> 00:07:02,230 types of fuel, there's less enthusiasm or sometimes there can be, just, you know, some conflicts of interest in terms of how quickly things move, how, you know, 61 00:07:02,350 --> 00:07:06,384 we might be able to, or they might be able to slow things down a bit. 62 00:07:07,086 --> 00:07:18,410 You know, there's a common denominator among ZETA members, which is, you know, we want to move as quickly as we can in this direction. 63 00:07:19,617 --> 00:07:21,037 And I think that that's great to hear. 64 00:07:21,037 --> 00:07:32,062 And it's been interesting, obviously with kind of the most recent political outcomes, but I think it'd be interesting to just discuss, with how you guys have been around now for a 65 00:07:32,062 --> 00:07:37,765 few years, just like maybe sharing some of the things that you've seen and how things have evolved. 66 00:07:37,765 --> 00:07:42,927 I mean, I've been driving electric vehicles now for almost actually over two decades. 67 00:07:42,927 --> 00:07:49,273 And so like a decade ago, like DC faster and it's like, that's something that'll kind of be in the horizon, but. 68 00:07:49,273 --> 00:07:56,565 How practical is I don't know but hey we even got level two charting this is huge this is great and now you're looking at DC fast charting and there's still definitely growing 69 00:07:56,565 --> 00:08:07,235 pains but it's night and day from where it was and it just seems like that is a consistent theme and the EV space especially but this whole ecosystem we're talking about so I'm kind 70 00:08:07,235 --> 00:08:15,691 of curious as someone in your role if you could share maybe some of these things that you've even seen as like the conversation changing from like those electric vehicles will 71 00:08:15,691 --> 00:08:17,101 never work maybe 72 00:08:17,229 --> 00:08:23,455 to like, now it's like, well, maybe they don't work for everyone, but maybe 70 % of people they work for. 73 00:08:23,455 --> 00:08:26,727 I just be kind of curious to see what that's looking like from your side. 74 00:08:28,794 --> 00:08:32,495 I think that what you said rings very true with me. 75 00:08:32,495 --> 00:08:43,188 You know, I should say before I came to ZETA, I spent about seven years at Tesla. 76 00:08:43,188 --> 00:08:51,610 I actually started out in the solar industry and came into Tesla via the SolarCity acquisition. 77 00:08:51,930 --> 00:08:58,116 But, you know, very quickly got to work on issues related to 78 00:08:58,116 --> 00:09:00,577 charging and deployment. 79 00:09:01,418 --> 00:09:14,868 But in that product ecosystem, DC fast charging was sort of fairly ubiquitous and easy to use. 80 00:09:15,709 --> 00:09:25,680 And I think there have been a lot of insights as the industry has really grown a lot and become 81 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:33,300 much more diverse in terms of the types of vehicles on the road, the volume from other OEMs. 82 00:09:33,300 --> 00:09:51,920 And I think there's been also, in your case, several decades, but for I think the majority of EV owners, five to 10 years of experience for folks who were like in the first Model S 83 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,994 or who bought a Model 3 when it came out, that was 84 00:09:55,994 --> 00:10:08,138 That was just barely five, six years ago, but so much more of an understanding of how people use charging in different ways. 85 00:10:08,138 --> 00:10:15,850 What percentage of charging is done where people are parked, either at home or at work versus fast charging? 86 00:10:15,850 --> 00:10:23,502 Fast charging is such an important factor in EV adoption and for 87 00:10:23,502 --> 00:10:30,415 the vast majority of drivers are much less important, you know, regular charging experience. 88 00:10:30,415 --> 00:10:34,997 But, know, that changes as people use their EVs more and more. 89 00:10:34,997 --> 00:10:43,060 It is really, really important to be able to go anywhere you want to go if you're replacing a gas buy with an EV, that's for sure. 90 00:10:43,121 --> 00:10:48,133 So, you know, an intense focus on, I think, easing the customer experience. 91 00:10:48,133 --> 00:10:50,644 We just saw this SAE announcement. 92 00:10:52,278 --> 00:11:00,010 days ago, I think about a national plug and charge standard, is going to be, it makes a ton of sense. 93 00:11:00,010 --> 00:11:11,674 This is something that wasn't possible with internal combustion engine vehicles, but it is possible with nearly every new vehicle on the market to just make it a seamless process, 94 00:11:11,674 --> 00:11:20,336 the same way that Apple Pay and all the other versions of smartphone payment options. 95 00:11:20,336 --> 00:11:29,296 has made it so simple at the point of sale to not take your wallet out of your pocket or carry cash. 96 00:11:29,856 --> 00:11:37,856 That's a fairly new thing that's gonna be industry wide where payment is fairly seamless when you plug in. 97 00:11:37,856 --> 00:11:47,728 So these are all things that I think we have expected to happen, but in order to be as commonplace as they need to be. 98 00:11:47,728 --> 00:11:49,199 They have to go through processes like that. 99 00:11:49,199 --> 00:11:58,794 They have to go through standardization processes in order to be recognized as, you know, universal option. 100 00:11:59,455 --> 00:12:10,521 another thing that I think is really important is, you know, technological innovation on the charging side. 101 00:12:10,981 --> 00:12:16,514 We see it, it's a bit out of public view in terms of the cost per plug to 102 00:12:16,552 --> 00:12:19,312 to put DC fast charging in. 103 00:12:19,373 --> 00:12:23,864 But that is definitely happening. 104 00:12:23,864 --> 00:12:32,857 There's definitely a lot of efficiency being gained the more infrastructure build out there is. 105 00:12:32,857 --> 00:12:42,299 And the denser charging is on the grid, the easier it is to add another charger to a distribution circuit somewhere. 106 00:12:42,939 --> 00:12:45,968 And it's easier to get the investment. 107 00:12:45,968 --> 00:12:48,248 you know, approved to do that as well. 108 00:12:48,248 --> 00:13:02,388 If you're, if you're a utility on the level two and even level one side, you know, I, for the last several years here in BC, you know, I know a lot of people who, maybe haven't 109 00:13:02,388 --> 00:13:13,448 installed a level two plug at their home either because, you know, it's not easy or it was a bit more expensive than they were willing to pay because they didn't, they didn't think 110 00:13:13,448 --> 00:13:13,928 they needed it. 111 00:13:13,928 --> 00:13:15,792 And they've been running level, level one. 112 00:13:15,792 --> 00:13:17,612 chargers through extension cords. 113 00:13:17,612 --> 00:13:20,782 I've seen people running cords across the sidewalks and covering them. 114 00:13:20,782 --> 00:13:23,832 And there's even guidance on how to do that. 115 00:13:23,832 --> 00:13:42,432 that's anchored in the same world that was present when I first started working on these issues where you assume maybe $1,200, $1,500 to install a Level 2 charger somewhere to 116 00:13:42,432 --> 00:13:44,052 deliver 40 amps. 117 00:13:44,656 --> 00:13:50,796 There's now a whole new universe of level two plugs. 118 00:13:50,796 --> 00:13:53,576 It doesn't have to have a cord built into it. 119 00:13:53,576 --> 00:13:57,136 Most everybody has a cord with their vehicle. 120 00:13:58,016 --> 00:14:01,096 And the cost has come down significantly. 121 00:14:01,096 --> 00:14:13,456 People have realized they don't need 40 amps if they're parked for 80 % of the time, either at home or at work. 122 00:14:13,456 --> 00:14:21,376 You could do a lot with 16 amps and you could do it for like $200 and you can have a lot more control over that power now as well. 123 00:14:21,376 --> 00:14:31,234 So that's going to be a game changer for folks who don't live in a single family home with a detached garage to have easy access to charging where they park. 124 00:14:31,949 --> 00:14:37,130 Yeah, I think this does kind of cover a larger conversation I have pretty regularly. 125 00:14:37,130 --> 00:14:44,366 It's like people who haven't driven EVs or who are new to the EV experience, they kind of think about, well, I need to have that DC fast charger. 126 00:14:44,366 --> 00:14:45,367 What's that kind of setup? 127 00:14:45,367 --> 00:14:50,739 Or that's kind of a reason I don't want to get an EV because they're kind of coming from having a gas vehicle. 128 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:52,391 And like you have to go to the gas station. 129 00:14:52,391 --> 00:14:56,703 So they kind of equate that that DC fast charger is that same thing. 130 00:14:56,703 --> 00:14:59,845 Now I'm probably one of the people that use a more 131 00:14:59,865 --> 00:15:01,806 because I drive about 30,000 miles a year. 132 00:15:01,806 --> 00:15:06,940 And even then, I had a level two at our previous house. 133 00:15:06,940 --> 00:15:08,472 We're now in a rental. 134 00:15:08,472 --> 00:15:10,353 And so I've been using a level one charger. 135 00:15:10,353 --> 00:15:11,274 I've been surprised. 136 00:15:11,274 --> 00:15:21,502 It kind of just reminds me how well just the same outlet that I plugged my electric toothbrush into, I now plug my electric car into and it's been working way better than I, 137 00:15:21,502 --> 00:15:22,605 cause I was even worried about that. 138 00:15:22,605 --> 00:15:24,494 was like, it's been so nice to have that level two thing. 139 00:15:24,494 --> 00:15:25,584 And it really, 140 00:15:26,285 --> 00:15:29,016 hasn't been an issue, which I've even been surprised by. 141 00:15:29,016 --> 00:15:40,843 And it just, is a different mindset that I think a lot of people, and I don't know, some of it probably is education, but it just seems to be that it has to be that kind of butt 142 00:15:40,843 --> 00:15:47,896 in seat moment or have an EV for like a few days that you realize, this isn't as hard or difficult of a change as I thought it would be. 143 00:15:48,665 --> 00:15:59,605 Because yeah, we have two electric cars now and then we also have a 1987 Land Rover Defender 90, which is a great vehicle, a great off-road, kind of weakened vehicle. 144 00:15:59,605 --> 00:16:05,865 But yeah, the thing I hate about that the most is filling it with gas and having to do all that and the costs associated with that. 145 00:16:06,905 --> 00:16:12,245 That and that what's been so funny is now at this place we're at is like, yeah, it's it has an oil leak in the garage. 146 00:16:12,245 --> 00:16:17,915 So now I have to deal with that and all these sorts of things that you just really don't have to deal with by going to an EV. 147 00:16:17,915 --> 00:16:27,025 And so I'm kind of curious in your conversations, like are people coming to you more at that? 148 00:16:27,725 --> 00:16:30,955 They haven't had the butts in the seats kind of EV experience. 149 00:16:30,955 --> 00:16:36,407 Now they're kind of being forced or talked to like, I guess we have to look at this more or is it? 150 00:16:36,407 --> 00:16:40,965 They kind of under, they have a higher baseline knowledge or is it just all over the place right now? 151 00:16:40,965 --> 00:16:42,868 I guess that's what I'm curious about. 152 00:16:44,452 --> 00:16:45,610 You know, it's 153 00:16:48,288 --> 00:16:57,216 We're closer and closer to the point where, you know, these are just cars that are available for sale. 154 00:16:57,216 --> 00:17:09,387 They're not, you know, they're not so unique and, or they're not thought of as a novelty necessarily. 155 00:17:09,427 --> 00:17:15,216 But, you know, when somebody is considering buying a new car. 156 00:17:15,216 --> 00:17:17,087 And that has its own cadence to it. 157 00:17:17,087 --> 00:17:19,018 A lot of people don't buy new cars. 158 00:17:19,659 --> 00:17:40,570 But if someone's looking for a new car, I think more and more frequently now, unless they, for one reason or another, have an anti-EV viewpoint, they're more more folks giving me a 159 00:17:40,570 --> 00:17:43,011 call saying, hey, what do you think about? 160 00:17:44,688 --> 00:17:51,708 the X car or whatever, or what type of EV do you think I should consider? 161 00:17:51,708 --> 00:18:09,518 And the great thing is there are so many now, especially for, know, I'm 42, I have a lot of friends that have, you know, young kids and are in that sort of crossover SUV market, 162 00:18:09,518 --> 00:18:14,028 because they, you know, they really are looking to replace a gas car. 163 00:18:14,573 --> 00:18:21,612 And that's the space where I think there's so much more variety now. 164 00:18:23,641 --> 00:18:32,221 And so, I mean, we've kind of been talking about where the status of things are and kind of what your team has been kind of working on around that education. 165 00:18:32,481 --> 00:18:41,201 Do you think kind of coming from that, like with this recent election, like what, what are some of the outcomes and like, what are some of the phone calls? 166 00:18:41,201 --> 00:18:43,131 you're getting about concern. 167 00:18:43,131 --> 00:18:46,581 I mean, I think we had a lot of listeners who at first were like really concerned about stuff. 168 00:18:46,581 --> 00:18:52,241 And now I think there's been more of a, I don't want to say acceptance, but more of like. 169 00:18:52,299 --> 00:18:54,690 It's kind just the market working itself out sort of thing. 170 00:18:54,690 --> 00:19:04,485 And either way, the EV and kind of even grid backup systems that have been unleashed are now out in the market. 171 00:19:04,485 --> 00:19:05,986 And it's not like they're going back. 172 00:19:05,986 --> 00:19:09,897 It just might be maybe they're not going to be adopted as fast as we had thought. 173 00:19:10,298 --> 00:19:14,270 Even when we're seeing like the larger automotive market shrink, EVs are still growing. 174 00:19:14,270 --> 00:19:17,321 So I'm just kind of curious if you're... 175 00:19:17,429 --> 00:19:24,593 optimistic still or kind of pessimistic or what these conversations you your team have been having since the election and kind of looking forward. 176 00:19:25,808 --> 00:19:26,408 Yeah. 177 00:19:26,408 --> 00:19:37,864 I mean, first and foremost, I think there's still really strong demand for EVs and, know, 178 00:19:39,404 --> 00:19:46,028 much stronger than anybody would have anticipated 10 years ago or even five years ago. 179 00:19:46,028 --> 00:20:06,400 We're now, including plug-in hybrids, above I think 14 % of new vehicle sales, which is there was a report that came out this week that shows we're almost five times what 180 00:20:06,704 --> 00:20:18,444 You know, the EPA estimated a sort of most aggressive case would show in 2025 back when they introduced the first light duty GHG rules over 10 years ago. 181 00:20:18,444 --> 00:20:25,004 And I think that's a function of obviously a lot of technological innovation. 182 00:20:25,004 --> 00:20:33,144 Tesla played a huge role in that story, but the rest of the industry also has sort of responded to that competitive pressure. 183 00:20:33,144 --> 00:20:35,054 And there's been. 184 00:20:35,054 --> 00:20:50,272 you know, good public policy put in place to try to spur this domestic manufacturing renaissance, you know, powered by semiconductors and batteries and vehicles. 185 00:20:52,834 --> 00:21:02,632 EVs historically, EVs in the United States have been overwhelmingly made in the United States. 186 00:21:02,632 --> 00:21:06,035 Last year, three out of four EVs sold in the U.S. 187 00:21:06,035 --> 00:21:07,576 were made in the U.S. 188 00:21:07,696 --> 00:21:18,375 And I think that is something that for the last century has been a major driver of consumer preference in the automotive sector. 189 00:21:18,375 --> 00:21:22,478 I mean, know my family grew up driving American cars. 190 00:21:23,521 --> 00:21:25,323 you know, exclusively. 191 00:21:25,323 --> 00:21:29,016 And I know a lot of people that felt that way and still feel that way. 192 00:21:29,016 --> 00:21:33,970 The great news is there are a lot of American-made EVs. 193 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:49,600 You know, I do think that from a consumer sentiment standpoint, it's hard for that not to be affected by the political debate. 194 00:21:49,620 --> 00:22:05,316 think even though EV sales are growing really, really fast and we're on track to have a record year for EV sales this year, Q3 was the 195 00:22:05,316 --> 00:22:13,183 best year ever in terms of sales volume and market share for EVs. 196 00:22:13,183 --> 00:22:26,524 you know, we're talking about, you if we talk about an EV slowdown, really we're talking about, you know, relatively minor declines in the rate of growth of EV sales, with a few 197 00:22:26,524 --> 00:22:27,565 exceptions here and there. 198 00:22:27,565 --> 00:22:33,430 You know, if you're looking at a monthly basis, there have been in the last year or so, there have been some 199 00:22:34,201 --> 00:22:41,825 some months where you've seen slight declines, but overall looking at the big picture, it's incredibly strong growth. 200 00:22:41,825 --> 00:22:44,759 So it was just firetruck driving right down the street. 201 00:22:45,542 --> 00:22:47,493 Well, no, and I think that's totally fair. 202 00:22:47,493 --> 00:22:56,570 And one of the things that we've covered a lot on this podcast too is just the fact that talking to people in the automotive industry sure, I think most of the narrative and 203 00:22:56,570 --> 00:22:59,881 headlines has been like, one wants these EVs and stuff. 204 00:22:59,881 --> 00:23:06,557 When in reality it's still positive growth and maybe a little slower than that was first predicted at the first of the year. 205 00:23:06,557 --> 00:23:12,917 But I honestly think the bigger story is the fact that the overall automotive market has actually shrunk. 206 00:23:12,917 --> 00:23:20,943 significantly not just EVs but it was combustion vehicles all these that they had predictions for by a couple million from the beginning of the year. 207 00:23:21,264 --> 00:23:32,744 So in such a negative and honestly not great outlook for the larger automotive sector with this past year to see EVs being kind of actually and plug-in hybrids like you mentioned 208 00:23:32,744 --> 00:23:40,901 being actually kind of the redeeming part of how the overall automotive industry is going and the fact that they're still even growing at all. 209 00:23:41,365 --> 00:23:46,608 is actually a pretty big thing to be excited about and show that there is still a large market demand. 210 00:23:46,608 --> 00:23:51,010 It's just seems to be more of an issue of can people afford new cars? 211 00:23:51,010 --> 00:23:57,663 And kind of goes to your conversation around the used car, which is obviously a much larger auto market than the new car market. 212 00:23:58,286 --> 00:23:58,646 Yeah. 213 00:23:58,646 --> 00:24:02,237 And we're, and you know, we're starting to see a lot of used EVs come to the market. 214 00:24:02,237 --> 00:24:13,500 And, for, some buyers of used cars, they, you know, qualifying for the used EV credit, which is, you know, expanding access even further. 215 00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:24,603 And then, you know, they're the, the best thing I think that EVs have going for them is they're really fun to drive and they're, you know, they're modern. 216 00:24:24,963 --> 00:24:27,684 you know, give you a lot of. 217 00:24:27,684 --> 00:24:32,928 control and flexibility over where you refuel, how much you're pay for it. 218 00:24:33,409 --> 00:24:40,635 That's a huge benefit for folks who are looking to reduce their transportation costs. 219 00:24:41,997 --> 00:24:52,185 We put out a report pretty regularly that shows gas prices versus electricity costs to fuel EVs nationwide. 220 00:24:52,784 --> 00:24:55,028 the good news is in... 221 00:24:55,120 --> 00:25:03,220 All 50 states and territory, know, U S territories, it's cheaper to fuel an EV than to fuel a gas car. 222 00:25:03,220 --> 00:25:14,460 But on a national average, it's, you know, half as expensive to, to, charge up an EV, versus a refuel a gas car. 223 00:25:14,460 --> 00:25:24,904 And then in, in four states, it's three times as expensive to, fuel a gas car as it is. 224 00:25:24,922 --> 00:25:26,373 to charge up an EV. 225 00:25:26,373 --> 00:25:38,704 That's a really compelling selling point for people who may not really have been considering an EV for any other reason, but their neighbor has one or their friend has one 226 00:25:38,704 --> 00:25:39,205 and likes it. 227 00:25:39,205 --> 00:25:42,668 And so they figure, yeah, I'll go check one out. 228 00:25:42,668 --> 00:25:46,511 And then that's a really cool thing. 229 00:25:46,832 --> 00:25:51,352 think the... 230 00:25:51,792 --> 00:26:08,952 The political debate around EVs has, I think it's a bit outdated in some ways, like at least the facts around which people are debating sometimes are a few years out of date. 231 00:26:09,992 --> 00:26:13,872 EVs in terms of costs have come down significantly. 232 00:26:13,872 --> 00:26:20,750 I think we still see this ubiquitous point of like, well, you know, 233 00:26:20,750 --> 00:26:26,803 Have you considered how we make electricity and that that's not carbon free? 234 00:26:26,923 --> 00:26:28,184 Yes, actually. 235 00:26:28,184 --> 00:26:32,696 Many people have been considering that question the whole time. 236 00:26:32,696 --> 00:26:45,683 know, really, you know, I think we need to do a better job of ensuring that we're communicating that, you know, they're very similar to costs. 237 00:26:45,683 --> 00:26:50,966 I mean, from a carbon intensity perspective, even if you take into account the full life cycle. 238 00:26:52,027 --> 00:26:58,068 including all the mining of critical minerals and all of the manufacturing process. 239 00:26:58,928 --> 00:27:15,468 EVs actually come out slightly more carbon intensive in the manufacturing process on average, but after you drive them a few thousand miles, you're reducing your carbon 240 00:27:15,468 --> 00:27:19,854 footprint on a life cycle basis because about 80 % of the 241 00:27:19,854 --> 00:27:25,007 Lifecycle emissions of an internal combustion vehicle come from the driving phase. 242 00:27:25,768 --> 00:27:36,684 you know, and all of these statistics about EVs being much cleaner than gas cars only improve over time as the grid gets more efficient and also cleaner. 243 00:27:36,684 --> 00:27:41,196 And EVs on the grid are very, very efficient users of power. 244 00:27:41,196 --> 00:27:46,419 For all the reasons you cited, I you can plug in in the same place you plug in your toothbrush. 245 00:27:47,696 --> 00:27:54,176 And, or if you plug into level two, most people are recovering about, you know, maybe 50 miles or range on a daily basis. 246 00:27:54,176 --> 00:27:56,486 And the rest of the time they're not plugged in. 247 00:27:56,486 --> 00:28:02,136 mean, they may be plugged in, they're not, they're not, taking power off the grid. 248 00:28:02,436 --> 00:28:15,516 There are more and more, opportunities for vehicles that are plugged in to be grid resources and to make the current distribution grid more flexible and bringing on other 249 00:28:15,516 --> 00:28:17,768 sources of energy, especially with. 250 00:28:18,405 --> 00:28:23,559 a lot of new load coming from data centers and AI. 251 00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:38,120 overall, think when these negative talking points have made their way into the headlines, even if they're not the headlines of, you 252 00:28:40,259 --> 00:28:41,933 Well, I think that... 253 00:28:42,820 --> 00:28:43,291 Yeah. 254 00:28:43,291 --> 00:28:50,483 looking at the headlines on the nightly news about the political race, you know, or they're watching a speech, whatever. 255 00:28:50,483 --> 00:28:52,513 think it does have an impact. 256 00:28:52,513 --> 00:29:01,786 It takes a little bit of work on behalf of that person to maybe check that out, whether that's true. 257 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:10,202 But what we find is like where there are negative beliefs about EVs that come from these anti-EV talking points. 258 00:29:10,202 --> 00:29:16,400 They may be broad, they're fairly shallow because they're not actually rooted in data. 259 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:23,648 And so it doesn't take much to just say, hey, actually, here's a whole bunch of sources on this. 260 00:29:24,793 --> 00:29:31,035 Well, and I think exactly what we're talking about is very similar to a lot of the conversations I had over Thanksgiving. 261 00:29:31,035 --> 00:29:35,666 I think these are the data versus the Thanksgiving kind of conversation. 262 00:29:35,666 --> 00:29:41,117 Well, I heard this or I saw that and yeah, yeah. 263 00:29:41,257 --> 00:29:41,748 Right. 264 00:29:41,748 --> 00:29:42,268 Exactly. 265 00:29:42,268 --> 00:29:54,755 And I am kind of, I think what's really interesting is obviously you have like Teslas and the newcomers and kind of startups, the space that had really no existing 266 00:29:54,755 --> 00:30:04,147 products that had a kind of combi fight with maybe some of the marketing or the needs that a combustion engine or traditional legacy automaker have had to. 267 00:30:04,147 --> 00:30:13,103 And then obviously for the first few years of Tesla and some of these other startups, there were still a lot of companies that were kind of trying to actively bash in 268 00:30:13,103 --> 00:30:14,253 advertising and marketing. 269 00:30:14,253 --> 00:30:22,927 And now they're trying to have to fight their own work to now sell these vehicles that they're building because of their own kind of I guess karma. 270 00:30:22,927 --> 00:30:24,215 I guess we'll leave it that 271 00:30:24,215 --> 00:30:25,636 But I'm kind of curious. 272 00:30:25,636 --> 00:30:29,088 Are you in conversations with your clients? 273 00:30:29,188 --> 00:30:38,475 Have you been recommending or like have there been conversations around like educating around advertising or how to because I do quite a I do some work with dealerships. 274 00:30:38,475 --> 00:30:48,321 I do work with other people kind of the space that are actually in the front lines of like trying to help and educate in these sales conversations. 275 00:30:48,341 --> 00:30:50,223 And there just have been a lot of difficulty. 276 00:30:50,223 --> 00:30:54,019 And so I'm kind of I'm kind of curious for our listeners like what are 277 00:30:54,019 --> 00:31:03,583 things that you're talking with your clients about and like what are things maybe even they as listeners can do to kind of help continue with the adoptions of EVs growing. 278 00:31:04,836 --> 00:31:05,358 Yeah, sure. 279 00:31:05,358 --> 00:31:07,023 And you know, we're 280 00:31:10,574 --> 00:31:13,506 We sort of function like a trade association. 281 00:31:14,007 --> 00:31:19,110 I would refer to them as members in that way. 282 00:31:19,251 --> 00:31:20,791 what we talk about is... 283 00:31:23,416 --> 00:31:36,003 Right now, know, there are, I think the demand side has a way of sorting itself out. 284 00:31:36,403 --> 00:31:39,325 Or at least it has so far. 285 00:31:39,325 --> 00:31:47,540 Like these are not products that are being sort of pushed on anybody, you know, with few exceptions. 286 00:31:47,540 --> 00:31:50,851 There are, there's a long history of, you know, 287 00:31:51,916 --> 00:31:58,849 automotive manufacturing of cars that for one reason or another just didn't fit well to the market. 288 00:31:58,849 --> 00:32:02,200 And you see that across the whole industry. 289 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:17,846 But in general, the EVs coming to the market are a really good solution for somebody in the market for a new car and increasingly well within the price range, below the average 290 00:32:17,846 --> 00:32:20,747 price of a new car or average transaction price. 291 00:32:22,667 --> 00:32:36,934 So there is a lot of good work being done by folks like you, by folks like Plugin America and people that work in partnership with dealerships to try to ensure that it's easy to 292 00:32:36,934 --> 00:32:42,926 answer the same five to 10 very basic questions that people have about EVs. 293 00:32:42,926 --> 00:32:46,478 Like how much charging is there around me where I drive every day? 294 00:32:46,478 --> 00:32:49,059 How much does electricity cost? 295 00:32:49,059 --> 00:32:51,160 Is the vehicle safe? 296 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,341 Is the vehicle actually clean? 297 00:32:54,342 --> 00:32:56,623 Is it reliable? 298 00:32:58,344 --> 00:33:00,405 Can I get it repaired? 299 00:33:01,466 --> 00:33:06,729 All of these questions that I think come up because it's new. 300 00:33:06,729 --> 00:33:15,013 It's different than all the cars that folks have purchased or driven up till that point in their life for the most part. 301 00:33:15,073 --> 00:33:19,748 So the good news is those are fairly easy questions to answer with some. 302 00:33:19,748 --> 00:33:30,036 you know, basic training, basic research, and you get very, very good at answering them at the point of sale. 303 00:33:30,197 --> 00:33:44,429 Once you take a look at the information out there, and actually, think dealers and, and others who do take in all that information are pretty enthusiastic about it because it is 304 00:33:44,429 --> 00:33:45,914 compelling to a lot of people. 305 00:33:45,914 --> 00:33:48,972 It's not going to be compelling to everybody, but 306 00:33:49,712 --> 00:34:06,472 To say like, for instance, if you're paying 10 cents a kilowatt hour for your electricity at home, and you've got an 83 kilowatt hour battery that takes you 350 miles, that means 307 00:34:06,472 --> 00:34:15,502 you're gonna pay $8.30 to refuel up to 350 miles of range. 308 00:34:15,502 --> 00:34:18,416 It's pretty easy math to do. 309 00:34:19,172 --> 00:34:21,693 versus whatever the price of gas is that day. 310 00:34:22,674 --> 00:34:26,565 And you're not going to need to bring it in nearly as much. 311 00:34:26,565 --> 00:34:39,768 The schedule maintenance is, you know, like 61 cents for an EV versus a dollar for every dollar that is just in the manual, the schedule maintenance for an internal combustion 312 00:34:39,768 --> 00:34:40,944 engine vehicle. 313 00:34:40,944 --> 00:34:45,827 And far fewer moving parts doesn't break down nearly as frequently. 314 00:34:46,527 --> 00:34:47,888 Oil changes. 315 00:34:48,430 --> 00:34:50,069 you know, transmission. 316 00:34:50,069 --> 00:34:53,105 There's so many things that car people get excited about. 317 00:34:53,105 --> 00:34:53,695 Right. 318 00:34:53,695 --> 00:34:53,915 Right. 319 00:34:53,915 --> 00:34:54,025 Right. 320 00:34:54,025 --> 00:34:55,055 No, I drive a lot. 321 00:34:55,055 --> 00:35:03,325 And so like that was one of the big reasons I was excited to replace one of our combustion vehicles with an EV is like, I was going to oil changes probably every couple of months. 322 00:35:03,325 --> 00:35:08,965 And there's another 80 to a hundred bucks that I just thought was absurd to be putting in for like a small Subaru. 323 00:35:08,965 --> 00:35:15,345 I was like, how is this that nice to be spending that much money for a thing of oil that frequently? 324 00:35:15,585 --> 00:35:18,229 And I think there are. 325 00:35:18,229 --> 00:35:27,773 It is just a, it is a total kind of mind shift sort of thing where, there's just things you don't quite think like I, the thing that would always drive me nuts is like, maybe my 326 00:35:27,773 --> 00:35:30,674 wife would drive the car and then I'm running late for a meeting. 327 00:35:30,674 --> 00:35:32,277 So I need to get in the car to go somewhere. 328 00:35:32,277 --> 00:35:35,516 And then like, there's no, gas in the car. 329 00:35:35,516 --> 00:35:38,858 Now I have to go stop the gas station before I get to this meeting. 330 00:35:38,858 --> 00:35:45,021 I was already running late for, and I think there, there's, there's so many kinds of like things that just changed that experience. 331 00:35:45,021 --> 00:35:46,411 What were you gonna say? 332 00:35:46,672 --> 00:35:54,677 I just gonna say I at least a Tesla Model S when I was working there for three years. 333 00:35:54,758 --> 00:35:57,219 I put about 10,000 miles a year on it. 334 00:35:57,219 --> 00:36:00,622 I didn't bring it in once for maintenance other than to get the tires rotated. 335 00:36:00,622 --> 00:36:08,106 And it was, know, not, that's, it doesn't happen to every single person, but it's, it's, it's, it's pretty great. 336 00:36:09,328 --> 00:36:16,162 What I wanted to talk about just, you know, to your earlier question is the, you know, 337 00:36:16,226 --> 00:36:34,850 the challenge of communicating beyond the consumer market, beyond even just the vehicle market, but the value of what's happening in the United States right now upstream of the 338 00:36:34,850 --> 00:36:36,030 vehicles. 339 00:36:38,853 --> 00:36:44,112 And how important that is to understand as 340 00:36:44,112 --> 00:37:00,769 you know, some of the policies that have been created over the last three years are being debated and, you know, federal spending is being scrutinized across the board as, you 341 00:37:00,769 --> 00:37:13,124 know, new priorities, different priorities are being put forward and they're needing to offset spending to, you know, extend 342 00:37:13,712 --> 00:37:19,572 the TCJA tax cuts and the salt deduction. 343 00:37:20,372 --> 00:37:32,992 They're looking at every dollar that's allocated to the credits that have spurred a lot of domestic manufacturing, or at least have accelerated it, have increased the size of a lot 344 00:37:32,992 --> 00:37:34,652 of these projects. 345 00:37:36,272 --> 00:37:43,092 I think, again, these are numbers that we've become used to hearing in a campaign setting. 346 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:53,248 where you tend to hear those things a bit differently than when you're like debating whether something should continue to exist or go away. 347 00:37:53,509 --> 00:38:05,779 Now, $182 billion in private sector investment in EV and battery and mineral production in the United States, that doesn't happen by accident. 348 00:38:05,779 --> 00:38:11,908 And it certainly is something that we've needed in this country for a long time. 349 00:38:11,908 --> 00:38:16,861 particularly in places that have been the backbone of U.S. 350 00:38:16,861 --> 00:38:23,716 manufacturing, and particularly in the automotive sector for decades, for most of last century. 351 00:38:24,056 --> 00:38:31,171 The Southeast and the industrial Midwest have received the lion's share of that. 352 00:38:31,171 --> 00:38:37,365 Michigan, Kentucky, Ohio, Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina, Texas. 353 00:38:38,106 --> 00:38:41,948 There are massive factories being built across 354 00:38:42,072 --> 00:38:44,314 the entire United States. 355 00:38:44,415 --> 00:38:51,564 And there's so much optimism in these communities about these projects. 356 00:38:51,564 --> 00:38:54,827 And, you know, it's really... 357 00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:00,741 I'll take the EV tax credit as an example. 358 00:39:01,142 --> 00:39:14,266 I think it's been historically viewed, or at least recently viewed as a consumer credit to get more EVs on the road more quickly. 359 00:39:14,748 --> 00:39:19,269 you know, it's sort of is that but that was really what it used to be. 360 00:39:20,570 --> 00:39:25,612 When the IRA came out, the 30D credit really had 361 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,061 turned into something very different. 362 00:39:28,061 --> 00:39:33,746 It's not an EV credit as much as it's a battery and mineral credit. 363 00:39:33,746 --> 00:39:40,091 And I think that is more clear now than it was a year ago. 364 00:39:40,091 --> 00:39:56,016 And on January 1st, when the foreign entity of concern rule goes into effect on critical minerals in the battery, it will be even more clear because there will be several 365 00:39:56,016 --> 00:40:08,436 American made EVs that otherwise qualify for all the positive criteria of like, you need to have 60%, 70%, I think next year of battery components manufactured in North America 366 00:40:08,436 --> 00:40:16,596 and 60 % of minerals sourced from the United States or a free trade agreement country. 367 00:40:16,596 --> 00:40:18,336 Those are pretty high thresholds. 368 00:40:18,336 --> 00:40:25,860 You can have met those and have, you know, a drop of or, you know, a fairly diminishing 369 00:40:25,860 --> 00:40:29,981 de minimis amount of lithium or cobalt from China and the vehicle is disqualified. 370 00:40:29,981 --> 00:40:47,446 You need to have replaced all of that in order to qualify with one limited exception, is for graphite for only two years because of the near total domination by China of refined 371 00:40:47,446 --> 00:40:50,206 graphite market, natural graphite at least. 372 00:40:50,847 --> 00:40:55,564 But in order to claim the credit under that exception as an automaker, 373 00:40:55,564 --> 00:41:05,207 you have to show a real commitment to source non-Chinese graphite by 2027. 374 00:41:05,207 --> 00:41:16,360 And so what that has done, what all of those things together have done is they've created an enormous amount of investment, both from the private sector, particularly from 375 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,921 automakers in mineral production and refining. 376 00:41:19,921 --> 00:41:23,906 You have joint ventures and co-investments and 377 00:41:23,906 --> 00:41:35,785 offtake agreements between, you know, I and EAR and Albemarle and Lithium Americas, all lithium producers in the United States with Ford and GM and Toyota and Panasonic and, you 378 00:41:35,785 --> 00:41:37,746 know, BMW. 379 00:41:38,006 --> 00:41:44,021 And they're able to go to capital markets and finance their projects against those agreements and increase the size of them. 380 00:41:44,021 --> 00:41:51,616 These are important to, you know, people in the Southwest that have, you know, have a long. 381 00:41:51,652 --> 00:41:59,438 history and the mining sector there and are excited about what battery needy production in United States means to their industry. 382 00:41:59,518 --> 00:42:17,892 And people who care about on-shoring and securing those supply chains, if that credit goes away, it's not just about getting rid of something that is just for... 383 00:42:17,956 --> 00:42:22,318 You know, wealthy liberals who want to buy buy EVs and save a little money on them. 384 00:42:22,318 --> 00:42:29,981 By the way, there is an income cap on it that, you know, kind of ensures ensures that it doesn't go to really wealthy people who could otherwise afford it. 385 00:42:29,981 --> 00:42:32,562 But, you know, that's not what it is. 386 00:42:32,562 --> 00:42:34,923 It's it's really a lever. 387 00:42:34,923 --> 00:42:44,297 This is what Joe Manchin really intended for this credit to do, which is to pull all of this upstream production into the United States or the or the U.S. 388 00:42:44,297 --> 00:42:45,528 sphere of influence. 389 00:42:45,528 --> 00:42:46,468 And so. 390 00:42:46,894 --> 00:42:57,840 It's kind of interesting because we're debating the merits of like EVs in order to maybe try to, you know, get rid of this credit or save this credit when in reality it's about 391 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,164 everything kind of upstream of the EV. 392 00:43:01,453 --> 00:43:04,454 Yeah, well, and I think this kind of does two things. 393 00:43:04,454 --> 00:43:06,645 One, I really agree with a lot of the stuff you're saying. 394 00:43:06,645 --> 00:43:11,328 I think you frame that really well by saying this isn't so much now a EV tech trip. 395 00:43:11,328 --> 00:43:16,380 That's like an EV manufacturing and domestic production credit. 396 00:43:16,380 --> 00:43:25,584 But even then, a lot of the conversations we've had, I've just told that like, you know, the seven to five hundred dollars is nice, but for a long time only. 397 00:43:25,613 --> 00:43:26,969 And I mean, to be honest. 398 00:43:26,969 --> 00:43:31,749 The majority of the cars that have been able to take advantage of were Tesla because of their domestic manufacturing. 399 00:43:31,749 --> 00:43:38,079 And I think when this first came out, it got a lot of flack that it kind of made it hard for a lot of cars to qualify. 400 00:43:38,079 --> 00:43:41,929 But even then, I was like, you know, I think this is actually a really strong medium. 401 00:43:41,929 --> 00:43:49,469 And even talk to people now, I kind of say like, even if that was to go away, there's still so many parts of the IRA that actually reinforce. 402 00:43:49,469 --> 00:43:53,789 to be honest with you, I think this conversation highlights that I think there's a good chance it might stay. 403 00:43:53,789 --> 00:43:54,481 But. 404 00:43:54,481 --> 00:44:00,125 so much of the other side of that is the manufacturing credits for battery factories and all these things. 405 00:44:00,186 --> 00:44:08,673 And by so much of this manufacturing moving here, becoming domestic again, or at least for electrification being here domestically. 406 00:44:08,941 --> 00:44:12,782 That gets rid of a lot of these arguments about like, well, what about these elements of China? 407 00:44:12,782 --> 00:44:18,194 What about all the pollution when we buy these things across and they have to ship it back and forth? 408 00:44:18,194 --> 00:44:28,767 I mean, in some ways this does solve a lot of those issues while also creating a lot of jobs and kind of bringing both sides to see a more, I think balanced and realistic view of 409 00:44:28,767 --> 00:44:36,349 why going electric, I think for 90 plus percent of people as of now even makes a lot of sense. 410 00:44:36,452 --> 00:44:38,410 Yeah, absolutely. 411 00:44:39,371 --> 00:44:40,402 And I'm kind curious. 412 00:44:40,402 --> 00:44:50,228 mean, you've talked about a little bit about it, but I just would like to hear maybe a little bit more about how you see or what conversations have been maybe around China and 413 00:44:50,228 --> 00:44:53,350 some of these other countries kind of playing into U.S. 414 00:44:53,350 --> 00:45:04,837 automotive manufacturing and kind of making that push to scale EVs here faster or maybe other just global kind of concerns there have been with that supply chain. 415 00:45:06,064 --> 00:45:35,240 Yeah, I think that there's a lot of very good faith and well founded skepticism about the position that China has in the market and the ability to exert influence on 416 00:45:35,482 --> 00:45:51,142 for instance, commodity markets for battery minerals for rare earth materials and the national security risks or the geopolitical risks that come along with that. 417 00:45:51,142 --> 00:45:54,326 see it in the semiconductor industry as well. 418 00:45:54,478 --> 00:45:58,320 this week with China kind of saying, they're not going to do this stuff anymore. 419 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:08,784 I think in some ways it's actually a good thing because it does reinforce us to be kind of more self-sufficient, find other resources for those materials in building a lot of these 420 00:46:08,784 --> 00:46:10,065 different products. 421 00:46:10,727 --> 00:46:11,680 yes, exactly. 422 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,540 And I think, you know, 423 00:46:16,304 --> 00:46:32,750 China is in this position because of about 15 years of sustained effort, sustained policy oriented in this direction. 424 00:46:32,964 --> 00:46:40,034 I think part of that was a really intense focus on air quality. 425 00:46:40,034 --> 00:46:42,595 I mean, not even climate change, but air quality. 426 00:46:42,595 --> 00:46:46,178 If you remember the Olympics in Beijing. 427 00:46:46,178 --> 00:46:49,168 you know, in two, was that 2008? 428 00:46:50,592 --> 00:47:00,009 I mean, there was, a great deal of concern about the health and health impacts for marathon runners, you know, and like, Trent did a lot. 429 00:47:00,009 --> 00:47:10,058 think that kicked off an effort that had a lot of other goals associated with it, but like, on some level, it was on a global stage. 430 00:47:10,058 --> 00:47:13,511 They recognize a need to do something about it. 431 00:47:13,511 --> 00:47:15,053 There are also a lot of str- 432 00:47:15,053 --> 00:47:28,633 there's a lot of strategic advantage to creating this market and then locking up the trying to secure supply chains. 433 00:47:28,993 --> 00:47:42,242 But really what that means is just going out and investing in capacity to extract and refine minerals like lithium that are in the 434 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,012 the history of mineral production relatively young. 435 00:47:47,012 --> 00:48:01,100 Like lithium has not been such an important mineral, nearly as long as most of the others that we think of, you when we think of mining, like in the Southwest, gold and silver and, 436 00:48:01,100 --> 00:48:04,894 you know, et cetera, copper. 437 00:48:04,994 --> 00:48:13,720 So through a combination of, you know, outward focused investment and 438 00:48:15,017 --> 00:48:34,292 internal policy that had really strong demand for batteries because every transit system basically said we're going to build electric buses that created this enormous need to turn 439 00:48:34,292 --> 00:48:36,514 out batteries and turn out minerals. 440 00:48:36,514 --> 00:48:41,839 And basically everything that came off an assembly line already had a customer lined up for it. 441 00:48:41,839 --> 00:48:43,680 And that's because of 442 00:48:43,940 --> 00:48:48,241 The way that system works is it's not market based. 443 00:48:48,241 --> 00:48:51,961 just sort of like there's a decision made and everybody moves in that direction. 444 00:48:51,961 --> 00:49:08,217 Nonetheless, the result of that has been what we see now, is no matter where minerals come out of the ground, they're disproportionately refined in China or by entities controlled 445 00:49:08,217 --> 00:49:09,040 by China. 446 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:14,058 I think the United States has been playing catch up a bit on that front. 447 00:49:14,148 --> 00:49:15,210 You know, that's a problem. 448 00:49:15,210 --> 00:49:24,121 That's both a problem to solve, but it's also an opportunity to go out and compete in the global marketplace because these things aren't necessarily. 449 00:49:24,121 --> 00:49:24,725 Yeah. 450 00:49:24,725 --> 00:49:32,658 a second mover advantage where it's like, okay, you can see where China has invest a lot of these things and take advantage of some of that and be able to catch up. 451 00:49:32,658 --> 00:49:35,809 And then even kind of use that as an accelerant really. 452 00:49:35,809 --> 00:49:42,494 And, and, know, no one else can or should replicate that, that whole process. 453 00:49:42,934 --> 00:49:45,377 Because, you know, we don't make decisions that way. 454 00:49:45,377 --> 00:50:03,492 But one thing that I think, you know, is a lesson to be learned is when you're, when you're looking at, you know, a supply chain, it's important to look at the way 455 00:50:03,492 --> 00:50:12,801 the different pieces of it are linked together and to understand the strength of it as, you know, dependent on whatever the weakest one is, because that's where your 456 00:50:12,801 --> 00:50:14,102 vulnerability is. 457 00:50:14,102 --> 00:50:16,054 And that's where the inefficiency is going to be. 458 00:50:16,054 --> 00:50:29,156 And that's where I think the debate over all these credits, you know, really ought to be focused on is what's, what are the hardest parts of this supply chain? 459 00:50:29,156 --> 00:50:35,959 to bring into the US sphere of influence, or at least into the free market economy across the world. 460 00:50:36,019 --> 00:50:50,795 And it is that, you know, far upstream mineral production, mineral refining and battery component manufacturing that is still relatively young as a technology when you're talking 461 00:50:50,795 --> 00:50:59,208 about these high powered lithium ion batteries that have only a few different chemistries that work. 462 00:51:00,493 --> 00:51:14,447 and only a few different recipes for making them that actually end up in a battery that is commercialized and oriented towards the mass market. 463 00:51:15,275 --> 00:51:17,776 And a lot those times they're pretty common minerals. 464 00:51:17,776 --> 00:51:31,533 it's not like a big, it seems to be more a question of scaling and figuring out at what pace we're gonna do this versus like, we don't need to figure out fusion. 465 00:51:31,533 --> 00:51:34,754 There isn't like some crazy technology requirement. 466 00:51:34,754 --> 00:51:40,927 I mean, it'd be great if we did, but there's not a crazy technology requirement or some sort of like magical like. 467 00:51:41,017 --> 00:51:42,837 new element we have to create. 468 00:51:42,837 --> 00:51:52,797 It is a pretty clear process now and there's already a clear kind of trending line of how you can scale these new technologies and see how much battery density has been increasing. 469 00:51:52,797 --> 00:52:08,537 But there is one thing you mentioned that I think that's really such a great point that doesn't get enough from a messaging standpoint because I think the politicization of 470 00:52:08,537 --> 00:52:11,089 global warming 471 00:52:11,237 --> 00:52:13,078 and climate change. 472 00:52:13,338 --> 00:52:20,181 It's it's there's there's a few things like obviously there's kind of some room to pay for how quickly it's happening. 473 00:52:20,181 --> 00:52:25,403 But there's a lot of data and there's a lot of things that kind of more or less can. 474 00:52:25,403 --> 00:52:28,864 Yeah it's happening but people can can't push back to what extent. 475 00:52:28,864 --> 00:52:33,006 But what I think is really interesting is you talk about China and smog. 476 00:52:33,026 --> 00:52:40,377 And I think when I have conversations with people who are kind of skeptical about EVs or even skeptical about climate change and all this stuff. 477 00:52:40,377 --> 00:52:41,078 I was like, you know what? 478 00:52:41,078 --> 00:52:41,478 Let's forget. 479 00:52:41,478 --> 00:52:42,358 Let's not even talk about that. 480 00:52:42,358 --> 00:52:43,740 Let's say it doesn't exist. 481 00:52:43,740 --> 00:52:51,767 But I can tell you, you go to LA, you go to Phoenix, you go to China, you go to any of these large cities, you can see smog. 482 00:52:51,767 --> 00:52:56,150 And there's really no question as to where it's coming from and what causes it. 483 00:52:56,291 --> 00:53:03,987 You can kind of make the argument somebody's heavy manufacturing along with cars, but obviously there's a pretty clear connection between car output and the fact that it no 484 00:53:03,987 --> 00:53:08,801 longer becomes a question of a concept and maybe looking at 485 00:53:08,953 --> 00:53:15,197 PPM CO2 data sheets and it's actually something that visually people can see with their own eyes. 486 00:53:15,197 --> 00:53:26,403 I think really is part of the conversation that should be had more and it's one of many reasons of like the advantages of going electric and then maybe some people can argue like 487 00:53:26,403 --> 00:53:37,369 well aren't you just shifting it to somewhere else but clearly with a lot of these new technologies and inherently with the grid becoming more greener and renewable that I think 488 00:53:37,369 --> 00:53:44,949 It would just be kind of nice to see this conversation changing from like something that's been so politicized and obviously has a place. 489 00:53:44,949 --> 00:53:52,619 But I think something that easily from an environmental standpoint, everyone has experienced and seen and can agree on that. 490 00:53:52,619 --> 00:53:56,449 I think China obviously took advantage of it for their own need. 491 00:53:56,449 --> 00:54:00,469 But like looking domestically, we've had now kind of a resurgence in manufacturing. 492 00:54:00,469 --> 00:54:01,619 We're seeing that continue. 493 00:54:01,619 --> 00:54:06,249 But then almost for the positioning to the. 494 00:54:06,443 --> 00:54:09,864 narrative and also the consumer focus around the environment conversation. 495 00:54:09,864 --> 00:54:11,835 It's like go to any big city. 496 00:54:11,875 --> 00:54:12,936 You'll see smog. 497 00:54:12,936 --> 00:54:14,776 It makes great sunsets. 498 00:54:14,917 --> 00:54:21,319 But other than for your overall health, it's not really it's not great. 499 00:54:21,319 --> 00:54:25,111 And it's pretty clear to track that and a QI of like the air quality. 500 00:54:25,111 --> 00:54:35,185 I mean, that's a really clear connection that I think I would I guess this is more a long rant, but something I think does need to be more of a conversation in the 501 00:54:35,235 --> 00:54:36,924 going to electrification. 502 00:54:37,104 --> 00:54:49,643 Well, yeah, and we just had sort of a once in a lifetime opportunity for like a reference point, which is during COVID, you know, all of a sudden, the sky was so clear. 503 00:54:49,643 --> 00:54:57,929 There's one of our member companies, the CEOs, Camille Terry, who's the CEO of Charger Help. 504 00:54:57,929 --> 00:55:01,911 And I will not tell, I'll not attempt to tell her story because you should have her on your podcast. 505 00:55:01,911 --> 00:55:03,242 She's amazing. 506 00:55:03,403 --> 00:55:04,623 But she, 507 00:55:06,096 --> 00:55:07,796 know, she was she's a genius. 508 00:55:07,796 --> 00:55:14,316 She was incredibly successful in finance as a young woman. 509 00:55:14,316 --> 00:55:25,796 And then during COVID, her mother was sick, not not with COVID, but she'll tell you the details. 510 00:55:25,796 --> 00:55:31,696 her mother got sick, she moved back to South Central LA to take care of her mother. 511 00:55:31,696 --> 00:55:33,736 And she told the story that it was during COVID. 512 00:55:33,736 --> 00:55:35,184 And it was the first time 513 00:55:35,184 --> 00:55:41,844 that she had ever from her house been able to see the Hollywood sign that everyone associates with LA. 514 00:55:41,844 --> 00:55:48,804 And that was like for her a turning point into this career that she's been so wildly successful in. 515 00:55:48,804 --> 00:55:52,204 And I thought it was really such a cool story. 516 00:55:52,204 --> 00:56:03,632 But I think a lot of people have that have had that experience during COVID of just and probably most have forgotten about it now, but like 517 00:56:03,632 --> 00:56:04,843 know, unfortunately, yeah. 518 00:56:04,843 --> 00:56:08,689 unbelievable how clear the sky was for so long. 519 00:56:08,689 --> 00:56:14,349 was, you'd see animals were all at all these random places that were kind of showing up in city centers. 520 00:56:14,469 --> 00:56:15,108 Yeah. 521 00:56:15,108 --> 00:56:17,208 is amazing and beautiful. 522 00:56:17,208 --> 00:56:19,708 like, it'll never be like the game. 523 00:56:19,708 --> 00:56:22,428 It'll never look like it again, probably. 524 00:56:22,888 --> 00:56:30,848 Well, hopefully we don't have another pandemic, but yeah, I've, hopefully I've already, you know, butchered your next guest for you. 525 00:56:30,848 --> 00:56:32,354 She's, she's amazing. 526 00:56:32,894 --> 00:56:34,846 No, we'll definitely have to have her on soon. 527 00:56:34,846 --> 00:56:45,134 think I realize we are kind of coming up on the time our time here but one of the things I just wanted to we've kind of talked about the history of the current state but I always 528 00:56:45,134 --> 00:56:54,242 want to try and keep it optimistic and especially as we wrap up but like are there kind of any trends or other things that you and your team are seeing whether it be about 529 00:56:54,242 --> 00:56:59,857 electrification in general or just specific parts of that industry that are 530 00:56:59,969 --> 00:57:06,561 Some things you think are either not getting enough coverage or just overall you're really optimistic about that you're seeing growth in. 531 00:57:09,136 --> 00:57:26,576 You know, think the things that are most compelling that don't get mentioned enough, and some of them I've said, but I'll reiterate three out of four EVs sold in the US or made in 532 00:57:26,576 --> 00:57:29,496 the US, those are 2023 numbers. 533 00:57:31,756 --> 00:57:38,456 Three of the top five most popular EVs on the market today costs under $45,000. 534 00:57:38,892 --> 00:57:41,613 That's before accounting for the tax credit. 535 00:57:42,954 --> 00:57:50,456 We are extremely close to price parity between an average EB and an average gas car. 536 00:57:50,456 --> 00:57:58,018 We have seen price parity, like glimpses of it. 537 00:57:58,418 --> 00:58:03,720 And I think as those averages level out over time, 538 00:58:04,302 --> 00:58:07,003 what's been expected for a decade now. 539 00:58:07,003 --> 00:58:16,435 And I think most analysts had 2025 as a year at which at least on a cost per kilowatt hour, you would see the potential for price parity. 540 00:58:17,776 --> 00:58:20,156 We're extremely close to that. 541 00:58:20,337 --> 00:58:31,880 And what that means for the US economy is, again, $182 billion invested, most of that going to states with a long history of manufacturing. 542 00:58:33,962 --> 00:58:36,533 is a great sign. 543 00:58:37,153 --> 00:58:49,276 Atlas Public Policy did this analysis recently that tracked $1.3 trillion or $1.2 trillion invested globally in this sector. 544 00:58:49,276 --> 00:58:53,797 And of that, $330 billion was coming to the United States. 545 00:58:53,877 --> 00:59:00,969 That's launching above our weight in terms of pulling all of this investment into the United States. 546 00:59:00,969 --> 00:59:03,140 And we're seeing it in the job growth. 547 00:59:03,696 --> 00:59:19,316 thousand jobs created in the EV industry and You know the electricity industry yet another you seven million jobs that all have a stake in this all have upside in this and You know, 548 00:59:19,316 --> 00:59:31,936 I think that there's so much focus on the cars and you know the chargers and you know, there's so much focus on the like the corner cases of why like Wait a second. 549 00:59:31,936 --> 00:59:33,712 Maybe not every single person should 550 00:59:33,712 --> 00:59:36,732 is ready to have an EV today in 2024. 551 00:59:36,892 --> 00:59:39,132 Yeah, that's probably true. 552 00:59:39,632 --> 00:59:42,952 But overall, something great is happening. 553 00:59:42,952 --> 00:59:52,692 And the most interesting thing is how aligned it is with such a broad constituency. 554 00:59:52,692 --> 00:59:54,872 I people want to see more jobs in the United States. 555 00:59:54,872 --> 00:59:58,012 They want to see more manufacturing in the United States. 556 00:59:58,012 --> 01:00:02,592 And they want the US to be globally competitive. 557 01:00:02,608 --> 01:00:15,071 They've sort of seen what happens when you create a consumer economy that just says, we're going to skip manufacturing everywhere else and it'll be cheaper and that'll be good. 558 01:00:15,071 --> 01:00:23,454 And, all of a sudden then, you you realize, no, actually we need to make more things here. 559 01:00:25,574 --> 01:00:28,711 you know, I think it is. 560 01:00:28,711 --> 01:00:32,206 It's these policies to the extent that it makes sense. 561 01:00:32,334 --> 01:00:40,561 and align with the philosophy of the income administration, congressional leadership. 562 01:00:40,561 --> 01:00:46,556 I think they ought to really be maintained. 563 01:00:46,556 --> 01:00:55,603 sometimes it is kind of surprising to people to hear how much they agree with a lot of this stuff. 564 01:00:55,763 --> 01:01:01,704 And we got our work cut out for us, a lot of people do, but. 565 01:01:02,253 --> 01:01:05,892 I think it's a really exciting time to be in the industry. 566 01:01:05,892 --> 01:01:10,698 A lot of change ahead, but a lot of opportunity as well. 567 01:01:11,672 --> 01:01:14,244 I think that's great and I think that's a great point to leave it out. 568 01:01:14,244 --> 01:01:17,968 We'll have to have you on again soon, Al, but thank you so much for coming on today. 569 01:01:17,968 --> 01:01:23,943 I know these were a lot of the topics we've had questions on and it was really looking forward to speaking with you about it. 570 01:01:23,943 --> 01:01:27,245 So this has been a great convo and thank you again for coming on. 571 01:01:27,536 --> 01:01:28,471 Thanks for having me. 572 01:01:28,471 --> 01:01:29,385 Appreciate it. 573 01:01:34,671 --> 01:01:43,043 Thanks for joining us today and a huge thank you again to Al Gore for joining us and shedding light on ZETA's mission to drive national policies for 100 % electric vehicle 574 01:01:43,043 --> 01:01:43,904 sales. 575 01:01:43,904 --> 01:01:50,005 It's clear that the future of transportation is electric and conversations like these are key to accelerating that transition. 576 01:01:50,065 --> 01:01:56,087 If today's episode sparked your curiosity or gave you a fresh perspective on the EV landscape, don't keep it to yourself. 577 01:01:56,087 --> 01:01:59,308 Share this episode with at least one person who enjoyed it as well. 578 01:01:59,308 --> 01:02:03,385 Whether they're an EV enthusiast, a policymaker, or someone new to the conversation, 579 01:02:03,385 --> 01:02:05,086 they will thank you for it. 580 01:02:05,086 --> 01:02:09,437 And before you go, take a moment to leave us a pause review on your favorite podcast platform. 581 01:02:09,437 --> 01:02:15,489 Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and keeps the conversation going about the future of clean energy and transportation. 582 01:02:15,489 --> 01:02:20,351 Stay connected for more episodes exploring the intersection of policy, innovation, and the grid. 583 01:02:20,351 --> 01:02:24,005 Until next week, this is the Grid Connections podcast signing off.