Good morning Grid Connections listeners.
This is the podcast where we explore the people, policies and innovation shaping the future of energy and transportation.
And today we're talking with Albert Gore.
He goes by Al and I know you might be thinking of a different Al Gore, but let me tell you this conversation and his influence are equally important, especially in the realm of EVs
today.
So Albert Gore is the executive director of ZETA, the Zero Emission Transportation Association.
We'd actually had Joe back on from, who is the?
former executive director on Great Connections a couple years back.
And so was really great to catch up with them, especially with all the new policies and things going on and hear about how they're at the forefront advocating for all sorts of
different national policies to accelerate the transition to 100 % electric vehicle sales in the United States.
So in this episode, we unpack ZETA's ambitious goals and discuss how their members want to reshape the automotive industry, supercharge EV adoption, and revolutionize the charging
infrastructure.
We also examined the recent US election outcomes and their implications for clean transportation policies and the broader energy landscape.
Albert shares his perspectives on the key legislative and industry shifts needed to make an all electric future a reality.
And overall, I left the conversation being really optimistic.
So I think it's going to be a great listen.
So I hope you're all excited for it too.
So whether you're an EV enthusiast, policymaker, or just curious about the road ahead, this episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss.
And if you find this conversation valuable, we have a simple
Share this episode with at least one friend, colleague, or fellow EV advocate who would enjoy it as well.
And while you're at it, please leave us a pause or review on your favorite podcast platform.
It really helps us spread the word.
With that, enjoy.
Al, I just want to say thank you for coming on today.
And for those of you who might be listening who aren't familiar with ZETA and some of great work you guys are doing, can you just give us a little background on yourself and
the program?
Sure, and thanks so much for having me, Chase.
You've got such a fantastic platform here and really appreciate the opportunity to come and talk with you.
So ZETA is an industry-backed coalition of over 50 companies across the EV, battery, and mineral supply chain.
We also have a number of electric utilities in our membership, but
The purpose of ZETA is really to advance electrification and everything that comes along with it.
So, you know, we have lithium mining and refining companies, battery manufacturing and recycling.
We have EVOEMs, both light duty and medium and heavy duty.
charging companies and again, electric utilities.
it's a huge sector spanning several different industries, but all focused on making this transition and all these investments being made in the United States successful.
No, that's, that's great.
I've definitely been following your team's work for quite a while.
And I guess, we talk about all those topics you just discussed on this podcast, but, obviously within there, that there's a lot of kind of fine, kind of minutia and how these
all different things work together in the kind of larger ecosystem.
but for those that might not be familiar, how ZETA kind of fits into that puzzle.
Can you kind of share like.
What some of these companies come to ZETA for or if you are a utility, how do you kind of help them?
How do you help these EV manufacturers or mining companies just to kind of give listeners a little better perspective in the larger scheme of things?
Yeah, well, you know.
A lot of our member companies exist in their specific industry, I think with the exception probably of the EV automakers who really, some of course have stationary storage or
renewable energy as well.
having
mining and battery manufacturing and the electricity supply industry sort of as disparate members of a group that, you know, always working towards, you know, a smoother adoption
curve for electric vehicles.
it really kind of, diluted, think the, the potential collective influence that a group like ZETA could bring to bear, specifically when
there are big national policies being debated, either being put together or, you know, existing policy being debated on the merits, which is sort of the situation we're in now.
But it's very helpful to have a lot of well-established companies in addition to a lot of new companies that have sprung up over the last two decades and many, you know, within the
last five to seven years with
really compelling business models, but not necessarily the built up advocacy and influence capacity that a lot of the incumbent industries have.
ZETA has been a convener of the aggregate employment base and influence of all of these companies with really a single unifying
goal, is to help make this economic transition in the manufacturing sector of the United States, that infrastructure build out, and also the policy formation that comes along with
that, a smoother process, a more well-informed process.
And it helps to have companies that have no hesitation about moving as quickly as demand or the market.
needs the industry to move in this direction, to, give those answers because, know, there are, sometimes, you know, whether it's with legacy automakers or, folks who make other
types of fuel, there's less enthusiasm or sometimes there can be, just, you know, some conflicts of interest in terms of how quickly things move, how, you know,
we might be able to, or they might be able to slow things down a bit.
You know, there's a common denominator among ZETA members, which is, you know, we want to move as quickly as we can in this direction.
And I think that that's great to hear.
And it's been interesting, obviously with kind of the most recent political outcomes, but I think it'd be interesting to just discuss, with how you guys have been around now for a
few years, just like maybe sharing some of the things that you've seen and how things have evolved.
I mean, I've been driving electric vehicles now for almost actually over two decades.
And so like a decade ago, like DC faster and it's like, that's something that'll kind of be in the horizon, but.
How practical is I don't know but hey we even got level two charting this is huge this is great and now you're looking at DC fast charting and there's still definitely growing
pains but it's night and day from where it was and it just seems like that is a consistent theme and the EV space especially but this whole ecosystem we're talking about so I'm kind
of curious as someone in your role if you could share maybe some of these things that you've even seen as like the conversation changing from like those electric vehicles will
never work maybe
to like, now it's like, well, maybe they don't work for everyone, but maybe 70 % of people they work for.
I just be kind of curious to see what that's looking like from your side.
I think that what you said rings very true with me.
You know, I should say before I came to ZETA, I spent about seven years at Tesla.
I actually started out in the solar industry and came into Tesla via the SolarCity acquisition.
But, you know, very quickly got to work on issues related to
charging and deployment.
But in that product ecosystem, DC fast charging was sort of fairly ubiquitous and easy to use.
And I think there have been a lot of insights as the industry has really grown a lot and become
much more diverse in terms of the types of vehicles on the road, the volume from other OEMs.
And I think there's been also, in your case, several decades, but for I think the majority of EV owners, five to 10 years of experience for folks who were like in the first Model S
or who bought a Model 3 when it came out, that was
That was just barely five, six years ago, but so much more of an understanding of how people use charging in different ways.
What percentage of charging is done where people are parked, either at home or at work versus fast charging?
Fast charging is such an important factor in EV adoption and for
the vast majority of drivers are much less important, you know, regular charging experience.
But, know, that changes as people use their EVs more and more.
It is really, really important to be able to go anywhere you want to go if you're replacing a gas buy with an EV, that's for sure.
So, you know, an intense focus on, I think, easing the customer experience.
We just saw this SAE announcement.
days ago, I think about a national plug and charge standard, is going to be, it makes a ton of sense.
This is something that wasn't possible with internal combustion engine vehicles, but it is possible with nearly every new vehicle on the market to just make it a seamless process,
the same way that Apple Pay and all the other versions of smartphone payment options.
has made it so simple at the point of sale to not take your wallet out of your pocket or carry cash.
That's a fairly new thing that's gonna be industry wide where payment is fairly seamless when you plug in.
So these are all things that I think we have expected to happen, but in order to be as commonplace as they need to be.
They have to go through processes like that.
They have to go through standardization processes in order to be recognized as, you know, universal option.
another thing that I think is really important is, you know, technological innovation on the charging side.
We see it, it's a bit out of public view in terms of the cost per plug to
to put DC fast charging in.
But that is definitely happening.
There's definitely a lot of efficiency being gained the more infrastructure build out there is.
And the denser charging is on the grid, the easier it is to add another charger to a distribution circuit somewhere.
And it's easier to get the investment.
you know, approved to do that as well.
If you're, if you're a utility on the level two and even level one side, you know, I, for the last several years here in BC, you know, I know a lot of people who, maybe haven't
installed a level two plug at their home either because, you know, it's not easy or it was a bit more expensive than they were willing to pay because they didn't, they didn't think
they needed it.
And they've been running level, level one.
chargers through extension cords.
I've seen people running cords across the sidewalks and covering them.
And there's even guidance on how to do that.
that's anchored in the same world that was present when I first started working on these issues where you assume maybe $1,200, $1,500 to install a Level 2 charger somewhere to
deliver 40 amps.
There's now a whole new universe of level two plugs.
It doesn't have to have a cord built into it.
Most everybody has a cord with their vehicle.
And the cost has come down significantly.
People have realized they don't need 40 amps if they're parked for 80 % of the time, either at home or at work.
You could do a lot with 16 amps and you could do it for like $200 and you can have a lot more control over that power now as well.
So that's going to be a game changer for folks who don't live in a single family home with a detached garage to have easy access to charging where they park.
Yeah, I think this does kind of cover a larger conversation I have pretty regularly.
It's like people who haven't driven EVs or who are new to the EV experience, they kind of think about, well, I need to have that DC fast charger.
What's that kind of setup?
Or that's kind of a reason I don't want to get an EV because they're kind of coming from having a gas vehicle.
And like you have to go to the gas station.
So they kind of equate that that DC fast charger is that same thing.
Now I'm probably one of the people that use a more
because I drive about 30,000 miles a year.
And even then, I had a level two at our previous house.
We're now in a rental.
And so I've been using a level one charger.
I've been surprised.
It kind of just reminds me how well just the same outlet that I plugged my electric toothbrush into, I now plug my electric car into and it's been working way better than I,
cause I was even worried about that.
was like, it's been so nice to have that level two thing.
And it really,
hasn't been an issue, which I've even been surprised by.
And it just, is a different mindset that I think a lot of people, and I don't know, some of it probably is education, but it just seems to be that it has to be that kind of butt
in seat moment or have an EV for like a few days that you realize, this isn't as hard or difficult of a change as I thought it would be.
Because yeah, we have two electric cars now and then we also have a 1987 Land Rover Defender 90, which is a great vehicle, a great off-road, kind of weakened vehicle.
But yeah, the thing I hate about that the most is filling it with gas and having to do all that and the costs associated with that.
That and that what's been so funny is now at this place we're at is like, yeah, it's it has an oil leak in the garage.
So now I have to deal with that and all these sorts of things that you just really don't have to deal with by going to an EV.
And so I'm kind of curious in your conversations, like are people coming to you more at that?
They haven't had the butts in the seats kind of EV experience.
Now they're kind of being forced or talked to like, I guess we have to look at this more or is it?
They kind of under, they have a higher baseline knowledge or is it just all over the place right now?
I guess that's what I'm curious about.
You know, it's
We're closer and closer to the point where, you know, these are just cars that are available for sale.
They're not, you know, they're not so unique and, or they're not thought of as a novelty necessarily.
But, you know, when somebody is considering buying a new car.
And that has its own cadence to it.
A lot of people don't buy new cars.
But if someone's looking for a new car, I think more and more frequently now, unless they, for one reason or another, have an anti-EV viewpoint, they're more more folks giving me a
call saying, hey, what do you think about?
the X car or whatever, or what type of EV do you think I should consider?
And the great thing is there are so many now, especially for, know, I'm 42, I have a lot of friends that have, you know, young kids and are in that sort of crossover SUV market,
because they, you know, they really are looking to replace a gas car.
And that's the space where I think there's so much more variety now.
And so, I mean, we've kind of been talking about where the status of things are and kind of what your team has been kind of working on around that education.
Do you think kind of coming from that, like with this recent election, like what, what are some of the outcomes and like, what are some of the phone calls?
you're getting about concern.
I mean, I think we had a lot of listeners who at first were like really concerned about stuff.
And now I think there's been more of a, I don't want to say acceptance, but more of like.
It's kind just the market working itself out sort of thing.
And either way, the EV and kind of even grid backup systems that have been unleashed are now out in the market.
And it's not like they're going back.
It just might be maybe they're not going to be adopted as fast as we had thought.
Even when we're seeing like the larger automotive market shrink, EVs are still growing.
So I'm just kind of curious if you're...
optimistic still or kind of pessimistic or what these conversations you your team have been having since the election and kind of looking forward.
Yeah.
I mean, first and foremost, I think there's still really strong demand for EVs and, know,
much stronger than anybody would have anticipated 10 years ago or even five years ago.
We're now, including plug-in hybrids, above I think 14 % of new vehicle sales, which is there was a report that came out this week that shows we're almost five times what
You know, the EPA estimated a sort of most aggressive case would show in 2025 back when they introduced the first light duty GHG rules over 10 years ago.
And I think that's a function of obviously a lot of technological innovation.
Tesla played a huge role in that story, but the rest of the industry also has sort of responded to that competitive pressure.
And there's been.
you know, good public policy put in place to try to spur this domestic manufacturing renaissance, you know, powered by semiconductors and batteries and vehicles.
EVs historically, EVs in the United States have been overwhelmingly made in the United States.
Last year, three out of four EVs sold in the U.S.
were made in the U.S.
And I think that is something that for the last century has been a major driver of consumer preference in the automotive sector.
I mean, know my family grew up driving American cars.
you know, exclusively.
And I know a lot of people that felt that way and still feel that way.
The great news is there are a lot of American-made EVs.
You know, I do think that from a consumer sentiment standpoint, it's hard for that not to be affected by the political debate.
think even though EV sales are growing really, really fast and we're on track to have a record year for EV sales this year, Q3 was the
best year ever in terms of sales volume and market share for EVs.
you know, we're talking about, you if we talk about an EV slowdown, really we're talking about, you know, relatively minor declines in the rate of growth of EV sales, with a few
exceptions here and there.
You know, if you're looking at a monthly basis, there have been in the last year or so, there have been some
some months where you've seen slight declines, but overall looking at the big picture, it's incredibly strong growth.
So it was just firetruck driving right down the street.
Well, no, and I think that's totally fair.
And one of the things that we've covered a lot on this podcast too is just the fact that talking to people in the automotive industry sure, I think most of the narrative and
headlines has been like, one wants these EVs and stuff.
When in reality it's still positive growth and maybe a little slower than that was first predicted at the first of the year.
But I honestly think the bigger story is the fact that the overall automotive market has actually shrunk.
significantly not just EVs but it was combustion vehicles all these that they had predictions for by a couple million from the beginning of the year.
So in such a negative and honestly not great outlook for the larger automotive sector with this past year to see EVs being kind of actually and plug-in hybrids like you mentioned
being actually kind of the redeeming part of how the overall automotive industry is going and the fact that they're still even growing at all.
is actually a pretty big thing to be excited about and show that there is still a large market demand.
It's just seems to be more of an issue of can people afford new cars?
And kind of goes to your conversation around the used car, which is obviously a much larger auto market than the new car market.
Yeah.
And we're, and you know, we're starting to see a lot of used EVs come to the market.
And, for, some buyers of used cars, they, you know, qualifying for the used EV credit, which is, you know, expanding access even further.
And then, you know, they're the, the best thing I think that EVs have going for them is they're really fun to drive and they're, you know, they're modern.
you know, give you a lot of.
control and flexibility over where you refuel, how much you're pay for it.
That's a huge benefit for folks who are looking to reduce their transportation costs.
We put out a report pretty regularly that shows gas prices versus electricity costs to fuel EVs nationwide.
the good news is in...
All 50 states and territory, know, U S territories, it's cheaper to fuel an EV than to fuel a gas car.
But on a national average, it's, you know, half as expensive to, to, charge up an EV, versus a refuel a gas car.
And then in, in four states, it's three times as expensive to, fuel a gas car as it is.
to charge up an EV.
That's a really compelling selling point for people who may not really have been considering an EV for any other reason, but their neighbor has one or their friend has one
and likes it.
And so they figure, yeah, I'll go check one out.
And then that's a really cool thing.
think the...
The political debate around EVs has, I think it's a bit outdated in some ways, like at least the facts around which people are debating sometimes are a few years out of date.
EVs in terms of costs have come down significantly.
I think we still see this ubiquitous point of like, well, you know,
Have you considered how we make electricity and that that's not carbon free?
Yes, actually.
Many people have been considering that question the whole time.
know, really, you know, I think we need to do a better job of ensuring that we're communicating that, you know, they're very similar to costs.
I mean, from a carbon intensity perspective, even if you take into account the full life cycle.
including all the mining of critical minerals and all of the manufacturing process.
EVs actually come out slightly more carbon intensive in the manufacturing process on average, but after you drive them a few thousand miles, you're reducing your carbon
footprint on a life cycle basis because about 80 % of the
Lifecycle emissions of an internal combustion vehicle come from the driving phase.
you know, and all of these statistics about EVs being much cleaner than gas cars only improve over time as the grid gets more efficient and also cleaner.
And EVs on the grid are very, very efficient users of power.
For all the reasons you cited, I you can plug in in the same place you plug in your toothbrush.
And, or if you plug into level two, most people are recovering about, you know, maybe 50 miles or range on a daily basis.
And the rest of the time they're not plugged in.
mean, they may be plugged in, they're not, they're not, taking power off the grid.
There are more and more, opportunities for vehicles that are plugged in to be grid resources and to make the current distribution grid more flexible and bringing on other
sources of energy, especially with.
a lot of new load coming from data centers and AI.
overall, think when these negative talking points have made their way into the headlines, even if they're not the headlines of, you
Well, I think that...
Yeah.
looking at the headlines on the nightly news about the political race, you know, or they're watching a speech, whatever.
think it does have an impact.
It takes a little bit of work on behalf of that person to maybe check that out, whether that's true.
But what we find is like where there are negative beliefs about EVs that come from these anti-EV talking points.
They may be broad, they're fairly shallow because they're not actually rooted in data.
And so it doesn't take much to just say, hey, actually, here's a whole bunch of sources on this.
Well, and I think exactly what we're talking about is very similar to a lot of the conversations I had over Thanksgiving.
I think these are the data versus the Thanksgiving kind of conversation.
Well, I heard this or I saw that and yeah, yeah.
Right.
Exactly.
And I am kind of, I think what's really interesting is obviously you have like Teslas and the newcomers and kind of startups, the space that had really no existing
products that had a kind of combi fight with maybe some of the marketing or the needs that a combustion engine or traditional legacy automaker have had to.
And then obviously for the first few years of Tesla and some of these other startups, there were still a lot of companies that were kind of trying to actively bash in
advertising and marketing.
And now they're trying to have to fight their own work to now sell these vehicles that they're building because of their own kind of I guess karma.
I guess we'll leave it that
But I'm kind of curious.
Are you in conversations with your clients?
Have you been recommending or like have there been conversations around like educating around advertising or how to because I do quite a I do some work with dealerships.
I do work with other people kind of the space that are actually in the front lines of like trying to help and educate in these sales conversations.
And there just have been a lot of difficulty.
And so I'm kind of I'm kind of curious for our listeners like what are
things that you're talking with your clients about and like what are things maybe even they as listeners can do to kind of help continue with the adoptions of EVs growing.
Yeah, sure.
And you know, we're
We sort of function like a trade association.
I would refer to them as members in that way.
what we talk about is...
Right now, know, there are, I think the demand side has a way of sorting itself out.
Or at least it has so far.
Like these are not products that are being sort of pushed on anybody, you know, with few exceptions.
There are, there's a long history of, you know,
automotive manufacturing of cars that for one reason or another just didn't fit well to the market.
And you see that across the whole industry.
But in general, the EVs coming to the market are a really good solution for somebody in the market for a new car and increasingly well within the price range, below the average
price of a new car or average transaction price.
So there is a lot of good work being done by folks like you, by folks like Plugin America and people that work in partnership with dealerships to try to ensure that it's easy to
answer the same five to 10 very basic questions that people have about EVs.
Like how much charging is there around me where I drive every day?
How much does electricity cost?
Is the vehicle safe?
Is the vehicle actually clean?
Is it reliable?
Can I get it repaired?
All of these questions that I think come up because it's new.
It's different than all the cars that folks have purchased or driven up till that point in their life for the most part.
So the good news is those are fairly easy questions to answer with some.
you know, basic training, basic research, and you get very, very good at answering them at the point of sale.
Once you take a look at the information out there, and actually, think dealers and, and others who do take in all that information are pretty enthusiastic about it because it is
compelling to a lot of people.
It's not going to be compelling to everybody, but
To say like, for instance, if you're paying 10 cents a kilowatt hour for your electricity at home, and you've got an 83 kilowatt hour battery that takes you 350 miles, that means
you're gonna pay $8.30 to refuel up to 350 miles of range.
It's pretty easy math to do.
versus whatever the price of gas is that day.
And you're not going to need to bring it in nearly as much.
The schedule maintenance is, you know, like 61 cents for an EV versus a dollar for every dollar that is just in the manual, the schedule maintenance for an internal combustion
engine vehicle.
And far fewer moving parts doesn't break down nearly as frequently.
Oil changes.
you know, transmission.
There's so many things that car people get excited about.
Right.
No, I drive a lot.
And so like that was one of the big reasons I was excited to replace one of our combustion vehicles with an EV is like, I was going to oil changes probably every couple of months.
And there's another 80 to a hundred bucks that I just thought was absurd to be putting in for like a small Subaru.
I was like, how is this that nice to be spending that much money for a thing of oil that frequently?
And I think there are.
It is just a, it is a total kind of mind shift sort of thing where, there's just things you don't quite think like I, the thing that would always drive me nuts is like, maybe my
wife would drive the car and then I'm running late for a meeting.
So I need to get in the car to go somewhere.
And then like, there's no, gas in the car.
Now I have to go stop the gas station before I get to this meeting.
I was already running late for, and I think there, there's, there's so many kinds of like things that just changed that experience.
What were you gonna say?
I just gonna say I at least a Tesla Model S when I was working there for three years.
I put about 10,000 miles a year on it.
I didn't bring it in once for maintenance other than to get the tires rotated.
And it was, know, not, that's, it doesn't happen to every single person, but it's, it's, it's, it's pretty great.
What I wanted to talk about just, you know, to your earlier question is the, you know,
the challenge of communicating beyond the consumer market, beyond even just the vehicle market, but the value of what's happening in the United States right now upstream of the
vehicles.
And how important that is to understand as
you know, some of the policies that have been created over the last three years are being debated and, you know, federal spending is being scrutinized across the board as, you
know, new priorities, different priorities are being put forward and they're needing to offset spending to, you know, extend
the TCJA tax cuts and the salt deduction.
They're looking at every dollar that's allocated to the credits that have spurred a lot of domestic manufacturing, or at least have accelerated it, have increased the size of a lot
of these projects.
I think, again, these are numbers that we've become used to hearing in a campaign setting.
where you tend to hear those things a bit differently than when you're like debating whether something should continue to exist or go away.
Now, $182 billion in private sector investment in EV and battery and mineral production in the United States, that doesn't happen by accident.
And it certainly is something that we've needed in this country for a long time.
particularly in places that have been the backbone of U.S.
manufacturing, and particularly in the automotive sector for decades, for most of last century.
The Southeast and the industrial Midwest have received the lion's share of that.
Michigan, Kentucky, Ohio, Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina, Texas.
There are massive factories being built across
the entire United States.
And there's so much optimism in these communities about these projects.
And, you know, it's really...
I'll take the EV tax credit as an example.
I think it's been historically viewed, or at least recently viewed as a consumer credit to get more EVs on the road more quickly.
you know, it's sort of is that but that was really what it used to be.
When the IRA came out, the 30D credit really had
turned into something very different.
It's not an EV credit as much as it's a battery and mineral credit.
And I think that is more clear now than it was a year ago.
And on January 1st, when the foreign entity of concern rule goes into effect on critical minerals in the battery, it will be even more clear because there will be several
American made EVs that otherwise qualify for all the positive criteria of like, you need to have 60%, 70%, I think next year of battery components manufactured in North America
and 60 % of minerals sourced from the United States or a free trade agreement country.
Those are pretty high thresholds.
You can have met those and have, you know, a drop of or, you know, a fairly diminishing
de minimis amount of lithium or cobalt from China and the vehicle is disqualified.
You need to have replaced all of that in order to qualify with one limited exception, is for graphite for only two years because of the near total domination by China of refined
graphite market, natural graphite at least.
But in order to claim the credit under that exception as an automaker,
you have to show a real commitment to source non-Chinese graphite by 2027.
And so what that has done, what all of those things together have done is they've created an enormous amount of investment, both from the private sector, particularly from
automakers in mineral production and refining.
You have joint ventures and co-investments and
offtake agreements between, you know, I and EAR and Albemarle and Lithium Americas, all lithium producers in the United States with Ford and GM and Toyota and Panasonic and, you
know, BMW.
And they're able to go to capital markets and finance their projects against those agreements and increase the size of them.
These are important to, you know, people in the Southwest that have, you know, have a long.
history and the mining sector there and are excited about what battery needy production in United States means to their industry.
And people who care about on-shoring and securing those supply chains, if that credit goes away, it's not just about getting rid of something that is just for...
You know, wealthy liberals who want to buy buy EVs and save a little money on them.
By the way, there is an income cap on it that, you know, kind of ensures ensures that it doesn't go to really wealthy people who could otherwise afford it.
But, you know, that's not what it is.
It's it's really a lever.
This is what Joe Manchin really intended for this credit to do, which is to pull all of this upstream production into the United States or the or the U.S.
sphere of influence.
And so.
It's kind of interesting because we're debating the merits of like EVs in order to maybe try to, you know, get rid of this credit or save this credit when in reality it's about
everything kind of upstream of the EV.
Yeah, well, and I think this kind of does two things.
One, I really agree with a lot of the stuff you're saying.
I think you frame that really well by saying this isn't so much now a EV tech trip.
That's like an EV manufacturing and domestic production credit.
But even then, a lot of the conversations we've had, I've just told that like, you know, the seven to five hundred dollars is nice, but for a long time only.
And I mean, to be honest.
The majority of the cars that have been able to take advantage of were Tesla because of their domestic manufacturing.
And I think when this first came out, it got a lot of flack that it kind of made it hard for a lot of cars to qualify.
But even then, I was like, you know, I think this is actually a really strong medium.
And even talk to people now, I kind of say like, even if that was to go away, there's still so many parts of the IRA that actually reinforce.
to be honest with you, I think this conversation highlights that I think there's a good chance it might stay.
But.
so much of the other side of that is the manufacturing credits for battery factories and all these things.
And by so much of this manufacturing moving here, becoming domestic again, or at least for electrification being here domestically.
That gets rid of a lot of these arguments about like, well, what about these elements of China?
What about all the pollution when we buy these things across and they have to ship it back and forth?
I mean, in some ways this does solve a lot of those issues while also creating a lot of jobs and kind of bringing both sides to see a more, I think balanced and realistic view of
why going electric, I think for 90 plus percent of people as of now even makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I'm kind curious.
mean, you've talked about a little bit about it, but I just would like to hear maybe a little bit more about how you see or what conversations have been maybe around China and
some of these other countries kind of playing into U.S.
automotive manufacturing and kind of making that push to scale EVs here faster or maybe other just global kind of concerns there have been with that supply chain.
Yeah, I think that there's a lot of very good faith and well founded skepticism about the position that China has in the market and the ability to exert influence on
for instance, commodity markets for battery minerals for rare earth materials and the national security risks or the geopolitical risks that come along with that.
see it in the semiconductor industry as well.
this week with China kind of saying, they're not going to do this stuff anymore.
I think in some ways it's actually a good thing because it does reinforce us to be kind of more self-sufficient, find other resources for those materials in building a lot of these
different products.
yes, exactly.
And I think, you know,
China is in this position because of about 15 years of sustained effort, sustained policy oriented in this direction.
I think part of that was a really intense focus on air quality.
I mean, not even climate change, but air quality.
If you remember the Olympics in Beijing.
you know, in two, was that 2008?
I mean, there was, a great deal of concern about the health and health impacts for marathon runners, you know, and like, Trent did a lot.
think that kicked off an effort that had a lot of other goals associated with it, but like, on some level, it was on a global stage.
They recognize a need to do something about it.
There are also a lot of str-
there's a lot of strategic advantage to creating this market and then locking up the trying to secure supply chains.
But really what that means is just going out and investing in capacity to extract and refine minerals like lithium that are in the
the history of mineral production relatively young.
Like lithium has not been such an important mineral, nearly as long as most of the others that we think of, you when we think of mining, like in the Southwest, gold and silver and,
you know, et cetera, copper.
So through a combination of, you know, outward focused investment and
internal policy that had really strong demand for batteries because every transit system basically said we're going to build electric buses that created this enormous need to turn
out batteries and turn out minerals.
And basically everything that came off an assembly line already had a customer lined up for it.
And that's because of
The way that system works is it's not market based.
just sort of like there's a decision made and everybody moves in that direction.
Nonetheless, the result of that has been what we see now, is no matter where minerals come out of the ground, they're disproportionately refined in China or by entities controlled
by China.
I think the United States has been playing catch up a bit on that front.
You know, that's a problem.
That's both a problem to solve, but it's also an opportunity to go out and compete in the global marketplace because these things aren't necessarily.
Yeah.
a second mover advantage where it's like, okay, you can see where China has invest a lot of these things and take advantage of some of that and be able to catch up.
And then even kind of use that as an accelerant really.
And, and, know, no one else can or should replicate that, that whole process.
Because, you know, we don't make decisions that way.
But one thing that I think, you know, is a lesson to be learned is when you're, when you're looking at, you know, a supply chain, it's important to look at the way
the different pieces of it are linked together and to understand the strength of it as, you know, dependent on whatever the weakest one is, because that's where your
vulnerability is.
And that's where the inefficiency is going to be.
And that's where I think the debate over all these credits, you know, really ought to be focused on is what's, what are the hardest parts of this supply chain?
to bring into the US sphere of influence, or at least into the free market economy across the world.
And it is that, you know, far upstream mineral production, mineral refining and battery component manufacturing that is still relatively young as a technology when you're talking
about these high powered lithium ion batteries that have only a few different chemistries that work.
and only a few different recipes for making them that actually end up in a battery that is commercialized and oriented towards the mass market.
And a lot those times they're pretty common minerals.
it's not like a big, it seems to be more a question of scaling and figuring out at what pace we're gonna do this versus like, we don't need to figure out fusion.
There isn't like some crazy technology requirement.
I mean, it'd be great if we did, but there's not a crazy technology requirement or some sort of like magical like.
new element we have to create.
It is a pretty clear process now and there's already a clear kind of trending line of how you can scale these new technologies and see how much battery density has been increasing.
But there is one thing you mentioned that I think that's really such a great point that doesn't get enough from a messaging standpoint because I think the politicization of
global warming
and climate change.
It's it's there's there's a few things like obviously there's kind of some room to pay for how quickly it's happening.
But there's a lot of data and there's a lot of things that kind of more or less can.
Yeah it's happening but people can can't push back to what extent.
But what I think is really interesting is you talk about China and smog.
And I think when I have conversations with people who are kind of skeptical about EVs or even skeptical about climate change and all this stuff.
I was like, you know what?
Let's forget.
Let's not even talk about that.
Let's say it doesn't exist.
But I can tell you, you go to LA, you go to Phoenix, you go to China, you go to any of these large cities, you can see smog.
And there's really no question as to where it's coming from and what causes it.
You can kind of make the argument somebody's heavy manufacturing along with cars, but obviously there's a pretty clear connection between car output and the fact that it no
longer becomes a question of a concept and maybe looking at
PPM CO2 data sheets and it's actually something that visually people can see with their own eyes.
I think really is part of the conversation that should be had more and it's one of many reasons of like the advantages of going electric and then maybe some people can argue like
well aren't you just shifting it to somewhere else but clearly with a lot of these new technologies and inherently with the grid becoming more greener and renewable that I think
It would just be kind of nice to see this conversation changing from like something that's been so politicized and obviously has a place.
But I think something that easily from an environmental standpoint, everyone has experienced and seen and can agree on that.
I think China obviously took advantage of it for their own need.
But like looking domestically, we've had now kind of a resurgence in manufacturing.
We're seeing that continue.
But then almost for the positioning to the.
narrative and also the consumer focus around the environment conversation.
It's like go to any big city.
You'll see smog.
It makes great sunsets.
But other than for your overall health, it's not really it's not great.
And it's pretty clear to track that and a QI of like the air quality.
I mean, that's a really clear connection that I think I would I guess this is more a long rant, but something I think does need to be more of a conversation in the
going to electrification.
Well, yeah, and we just had sort of a once in a lifetime opportunity for like a reference point, which is during COVID, you know, all of a sudden, the sky was so clear.
There's one of our member companies, the CEOs, Camille Terry, who's the CEO of Charger Help.
And I will not tell, I'll not attempt to tell her story because you should have her on your podcast.
She's amazing.
But she,
know, she was she's a genius.
She was incredibly successful in finance as a young woman.
And then during COVID, her mother was sick, not not with COVID, but she'll tell you the details.
her mother got sick, she moved back to South Central LA to take care of her mother.
And she told the story that it was during COVID.
And it was the first time
that she had ever from her house been able to see the Hollywood sign that everyone associates with LA.
And that was like for her a turning point into this career that she's been so wildly successful in.
And I thought it was really such a cool story.
But I think a lot of people have that have had that experience during COVID of just and probably most have forgotten about it now, but like
know, unfortunately, yeah.
unbelievable how clear the sky was for so long.
was, you'd see animals were all at all these random places that were kind of showing up in city centers.
Yeah.
is amazing and beautiful.
like, it'll never be like the game.
It'll never look like it again, probably.
Well, hopefully we don't have another pandemic, but yeah, I've, hopefully I've already, you know, butchered your next guest for you.
She's, she's amazing.
No, we'll definitely have to have her on soon.
think I realize we are kind of coming up on the time our time here but one of the things I just wanted to we've kind of talked about the history of the current state but I always
want to try and keep it optimistic and especially as we wrap up but like are there kind of any trends or other things that you and your team are seeing whether it be about
electrification in general or just specific parts of that industry that are
Some things you think are either not getting enough coverage or just overall you're really optimistic about that you're seeing growth in.
You know, think the things that are most compelling that don't get mentioned enough, and some of them I've said, but I'll reiterate three out of four EVs sold in the US or made in
the US, those are 2023 numbers.
Three of the top five most popular EVs on the market today costs under $45,000.
That's before accounting for the tax credit.
We are extremely close to price parity between an average EB and an average gas car.
We have seen price parity, like glimpses of it.
And I think as those averages level out over time,
what's been expected for a decade now.
And I think most analysts had 2025 as a year at which at least on a cost per kilowatt hour, you would see the potential for price parity.
We're extremely close to that.
And what that means for the US economy is, again, $182 billion invested, most of that going to states with a long history of manufacturing.
is a great sign.
Atlas Public Policy did this analysis recently that tracked $1.3 trillion or $1.2 trillion invested globally in this sector.
And of that, $330 billion was coming to the United States.
That's launching above our weight in terms of pulling all of this investment into the United States.
And we're seeing it in the job growth.
thousand jobs created in the EV industry and You know the electricity industry yet another you seven million jobs that all have a stake in this all have upside in this and You know,
I think that there's so much focus on the cars and you know the chargers and you know, there's so much focus on the like the corner cases of why like Wait a second.
Maybe not every single person should
is ready to have an EV today in 2024.
Yeah, that's probably true.
But overall, something great is happening.
And the most interesting thing is how aligned it is with such a broad constituency.
I people want to see more jobs in the United States.
They want to see more manufacturing in the United States.
And they want the US to be globally competitive.
They've sort of seen what happens when you create a consumer economy that just says, we're going to skip manufacturing everywhere else and it'll be cheaper and that'll be good.
And, all of a sudden then, you you realize, no, actually we need to make more things here.
you know, I think it is.
It's these policies to the extent that it makes sense.
and align with the philosophy of the income administration, congressional leadership.
I think they ought to really be maintained.
sometimes it is kind of surprising to people to hear how much they agree with a lot of this stuff.
And we got our work cut out for us, a lot of people do, but.
I think it's a really exciting time to be in the industry.
A lot of change ahead, but a lot of opportunity as well.
I think that's great and I think that's a great point to leave it out.
We'll have to have you on again soon, Al, but thank you so much for coming on today.
I know these were a lot of the topics we've had questions on and it was really looking forward to speaking with you about it.
So this has been a great convo and thank you again for coming on.
Thanks for having me.
Appreciate it.
Thanks for joining us today and a huge thank you again to Al Gore for joining us and shedding light on ZETA's mission to drive national policies for 100 % electric vehicle
sales.
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