WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:09.690 --> 00:00:13.110 Speaker: Welcome everyone to Faith and Purpose podcast. 00:00:13.870 --> 00:00:19.050 Each episode of this podcast contains the personal testimony of an ordinary person 00:00:19.069 --> 00:00:21.810 transformed by an extraordinary God. 00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:25.640 My name is Kaylin and I'm here to introduce this podcast 00:00:25.650 --> 00:00:27.180 for my friend Jesse Duke. 00:00:27.790 --> 00:00:33.259 Jesse is a husband, father, author, life recovery guide, lay counselor, 00:00:33.740 --> 00:00:37.820 and small group leader, but his most important role is disciple. 00:00:38.260 --> 00:00:39.710 As a disciple of Jesus. 00:00:40.190 --> 00:00:44.280 Jesse created this podcast to help other believers tell their faith stories. 00:00:44.830 --> 00:00:48.629 We'll be hearing the personal testimonies of all sorts of people 00:00:48.629 --> 00:00:52.560 who have one thing in common, Jesus has transformed their lives. 00:00:53.465 --> 00:00:57.555 Jesus used parables because he created us to learn best through story. 00:00:57.985 --> 00:01:02.775 And as we listen to how God has worked in others lives, we find encouragement 00:01:02.785 --> 00:01:05.075 and inspiration for our own faith walk. 00:01:05.564 --> 00:01:09.935 Whether you are already a believer or just a curious seeker, we believe that 00:01:09.955 --> 00:01:14.244 as you listen to these stories, you will be encouraged on your own faith journey. 00:01:14.544 --> 00:01:18.954 We are sure that God can speak to you through one of these episodes and that you 00:01:18.954 --> 00:01:23.044 will see that our Heavenly Father truly works all things together for our good. 00:01:23.380 --> 00:01:25.290 When we simply love and trust him. 00:01:25.990 --> 00:01:29.360 If you are currently going through a trial, we believe that you will come 00:01:29.360 --> 00:01:34.150 to see that your troubles, heartbreaks, and failures are not gravestones, but 00:01:34.180 --> 00:01:36.750 stepping stones into new life in Christ. 00:01:37.180 --> 00:01:39.170 Here's Jesse with today's guest. 00:01:54.233 --> 00:01:57.173 Aaron: Welcome everybody to Faith and Purpose podcast. 00:01:57.803 --> 00:02:02.263 I'm Jesse Duke and today I have a new friend Aaron Harns to tell his 00:02:02.328 --> 00:02:04.358 testimony and I'm looking forward to it. 00:02:04.388 --> 00:02:05.278 How are you doing Aaron? 00:02:06.068 --> 00:02:06.798 Jesse: Oh, pretty good. 00:02:06.808 --> 00:02:07.568 How about yourself? 00:02:08.858 --> 00:02:10.858 Aaron: I am too blessed to be stressed. 00:02:11.434 --> 00:02:11.664 So 00:02:11.714 --> 00:02:13.781 tell us your Jesus story. 00:02:14.551 --> 00:02:20.971 Jesse: my name is Aaron and I am in my mid 50s and my Jesus story actually 00:02:20.971 --> 00:02:22.631 started, right when I was born. 00:02:22.941 --> 00:02:25.121 My mother, took me to get baptized. 00:02:25.291 --> 00:02:32.331 I was baptized Anglican and pretty much, Consistently throughout my 00:02:32.371 --> 00:02:39.451 childhood, we went to church, every Sunday did the Saturday picnics or 00:02:39.901 --> 00:02:43.581 whatever, got to be, in my teenage years and, went to youth group. 00:02:44.261 --> 00:02:47.611 And for the most part, it was a Lutheran Missouri. 00:02:47.711 --> 00:02:51.111 and the reason why I say that it's just to let you know that 00:02:51.111 --> 00:02:54.391 it's, it was conservative, for lack of better words, liturgical. 00:02:55.131 --> 00:02:58.651 So it was, it was church like on TV for lack of better words. 00:02:58.851 --> 00:03:00.771 I don't know when it started. 00:03:00.811 --> 00:03:05.583 I, Pretty much contribute third grade, maybe second grade, but 00:03:05.593 --> 00:03:12.043 what we call dyslexia, I had when I was, younger and we didn't get it. 00:03:12.233 --> 00:03:14.073 We didn't know what it was. 00:03:14.133 --> 00:03:15.663 we didn't know how to deal with it. 00:03:15.663 --> 00:03:21.093 It, very commonly comes with ADD, or ADHD now, but, I have that. 00:03:21.408 --> 00:03:21.928 as well. 00:03:21.938 --> 00:03:25.898 So I'm this little boy, awkward because I'm a little boy, little 00:03:25.898 --> 00:03:29.228 boys are awkward, and teachers didn't know what to do with me. 00:03:29.528 --> 00:03:32.168 I had a hard time studying, hard time learning. 00:03:32.968 --> 00:03:35.098 So that started to affect my. 00:03:35.618 --> 00:03:40.958 Self image, my self worth, and I really enjoyed church. 00:03:41.058 --> 00:03:44.348 one of the neatest things, I ever did, even to this day, 00:03:44.608 --> 00:03:45.978 was my confirmation class. 00:03:46.458 --> 00:03:49.408 it lasted two years, and I actually still have that textbook. 00:03:50.238 --> 00:03:52.908 I don't know what it was, I just Always enjoyed it. 00:03:53.068 --> 00:03:59.128 always wanted to learn more, but what I was missing, was a personal 00:03:59.128 --> 00:04:02.868 relationship, was a kind of a trusting. 00:04:03.168 --> 00:04:08.748 So what I did is I decided to run the ship, drive the car. 00:04:09.888 --> 00:04:15.958 I never understood at that age partnership with God, that he was 00:04:15.958 --> 00:04:18.488 all powerful and that if I gave my. 00:04:19.493 --> 00:04:23.383 My will, my life to him that things would be peaceful and run smoother. 00:04:24.473 --> 00:04:28.193 So long story short, with that low self image and, all 00:04:28.193 --> 00:04:29.463 the things that go with that. 00:04:29.773 --> 00:04:31.603 and then I turned into a teenager. 00:04:31.633 --> 00:04:34.503 And if you think little boys are awkward waiting to see a teenage 00:04:34.503 --> 00:04:36.383 boy, I became even more awkward. 00:04:37.163 --> 00:04:40.403 so I, slowly but surely found, alcohol. 00:04:40.503 --> 00:04:41.333 I'll never forget. 00:04:41.333 --> 00:04:44.013 I would steal it from my dad's liquor cabinet. 00:04:44.933 --> 00:04:49.403 And, one day I filled up literally a red solo cup and went to the bus 00:04:49.403 --> 00:04:53.453 stop and, drank enough of it, waiting for the bus that I passed out, on the 00:04:53.453 --> 00:04:55.933 bus and ended up in the bus depot. 00:04:56.353 --> 00:04:59.563 so that, that was my first big experience. 00:04:59.603 --> 00:05:00.533 I was 14. 00:05:00.983 --> 00:05:02.843 so that's how my drinking took off. 00:05:03.708 --> 00:05:07.818 But, slowly but surely drugs and everything else that comes with that. 00:05:08.068 --> 00:05:13.468 but what had happened throughout my teenage years is in that awkwardness in 00:05:13.468 --> 00:05:22.288 that, I don't want to say inability, but it is difficult to be dyslexic and to be 00:05:22.468 --> 00:05:27.638 ADD, especially in a world where there's no understanding of it, so that self 00:05:27.678 --> 00:05:30.288 image, that self worth just plummeted. 00:05:31.413 --> 00:05:32.603 Absolutely plummeted. 00:05:33.713 --> 00:05:39.773 So later I would later in life, I would learn that we all are born with this hole 00:05:39.993 --> 00:05:42.403 and it's because of sin and the garden. 00:05:43.313 --> 00:05:46.593 And I don't, I have found that I don't care what it is. 00:05:46.773 --> 00:05:48.418 You're gonna fill it with something. 00:05:48.898 --> 00:05:52.418 And I filled it with drugs and alcohol, sex, drugs and rock and 00:05:52.418 --> 00:05:53.738 roll, for lack of better words, right? 00:05:54.518 --> 00:05:57.608 and that, that did a pretty good job for a while. 00:05:57.818 --> 00:06:02.828 the age of 17, and then again at the age of 26, I thought, it would 00:06:02.838 --> 00:06:04.398 be better for me not to be here. 00:06:05.208 --> 00:06:08.458 When I was 17, it was the darkest I've ever been. 00:06:08.778 --> 00:06:10.668 And, I knew it wasn't right. 00:06:11.028 --> 00:06:13.428 If, and I don't mean right, like correct. 00:06:13.718 --> 00:06:15.098 I knew something was wrong. 00:06:15.718 --> 00:06:20.938 I had known enough about God, about creation, about why he supposedly 00:06:20.938 --> 00:06:28.598 created us, that as I filled that hole up with drugs and alcohol and 00:06:28.738 --> 00:06:30.928 everything else, codependency, I am. 00:06:31.613 --> 00:06:33.463 Probably one of the best codependents out there. 00:06:33.783 --> 00:06:38.223 second to my mother I love you mom, if you hear this, I think that, 00:06:38.963 --> 00:06:41.593 but anyways, I just knew it wasn't. 00:06:42.528 --> 00:06:44.108 Something was wrong, right? 00:06:44.118 --> 00:06:45.368 Something wasn't working. 00:06:45.378 --> 00:06:46.438 Something was broken. 00:06:47.988 --> 00:06:53.228 So from about, end of 16, maybe midway through 17, I struggled with 00:06:53.238 --> 00:06:54.858 that theory, with that thought. 00:06:55.258 --> 00:07:01.188 and I was in Scottsdale, Arizona, and I went and, looked at Scottsdale, 00:07:01.238 --> 00:07:07.428 Camelback, resort or rehab, however you want to look at it and, really ponder. 00:07:08.998 --> 00:07:12.198 Maybe it's this drugs and alcohol that is getting in the way. 00:07:13.268 --> 00:07:18.468 At the same time, my father, was struggling with me as well and 00:07:18.548 --> 00:07:22.558 was talking to the police and not sure what to do with his son. 00:07:22.858 --> 00:07:27.368 and I beat him to the punch, asking to go to rehab before he. 00:07:27.513 --> 00:07:29.623 I had decided to do something with the law. 00:07:29.953 --> 00:07:33.743 So I ended up in Camelback, about 17 and a half or so. 00:07:34.323 --> 00:07:38.753 Sobered up, did the program, was introduced to AA, introduced to 00:07:38.833 --> 00:07:41.453 this God of my own understanding. 00:07:41.643 --> 00:07:47.743 And I saw things such as people thinking that the mountains were, was their 00:07:47.743 --> 00:07:49.923 God or the meetings were their God. 00:07:49.963 --> 00:07:53.193 And I'll be honest with you, I drank it hook, line, and sinker. 00:07:53.363 --> 00:07:55.473 it was so freeing and so peaceful. 00:07:56.373 --> 00:08:01.733 at that point I had wandered away from church, from Jesus, from my faith. 00:08:02.273 --> 00:08:05.573 I don't know that I left it on purpose. 00:08:05.993 --> 00:08:07.673 I think it was just more of a. 00:08:08.158 --> 00:08:09.408 a life situation thing. 00:08:09.408 --> 00:08:13.258 I just stopped going and one thing led to another and before you knew it, it 00:08:13.258 --> 00:08:17.978 was one month and then it was six months and then it was three years, bounced in 00:08:17.978 --> 00:08:24.898 and out of sobriety, went to culinary school and was accepted into that program. 00:08:24.928 --> 00:08:26.998 And I was a chef for many years. 00:08:27.098 --> 00:08:28.888 personally, I think, Halfway decent one. 00:08:28.888 --> 00:08:31.508 I got to open up some restaurants, which is always fun. 00:08:32.338 --> 00:08:34.838 very stressful, but fun, fast paced. 00:08:34.878 --> 00:08:36.738 perfect for someone with ADD. 00:08:36.788 --> 00:08:37.428 it was awesome. 00:08:38.508 --> 00:08:42.308 but they, unfortunately, as the chef gave me all the keys, which 00:08:42.318 --> 00:08:43.698 included the keys to the bar. 00:08:44.438 --> 00:08:49.048 and I very quickly found out, how much power there was in. 00:08:49.403 --> 00:08:53.803 Giving people alcohol, to buying drinks, to being that guy. 00:08:54.803 --> 00:09:00.313 as that progressed, my drinking got worse, my, my social life blossomed in 00:09:00.313 --> 00:09:03.193 numbers, but it actually fell in quality. 00:09:04.473 --> 00:09:09.323 that low self worth, that, self image that just is undefined and 00:09:09.613 --> 00:09:11.683 just ugly, got worse and worse. 00:09:12.443 --> 00:09:13.263 I had a baby girl. 00:09:13.793 --> 00:09:17.943 and she, all my kids argue about who's daddy's favorite, but Audrey 00:09:17.943 --> 00:09:19.393 and I, we had a really good time. 00:09:19.393 --> 00:09:20.223 I was a single dad. 00:09:20.723 --> 00:09:25.903 her mom and I separated and, I was able to have her for most of the 00:09:25.973 --> 00:09:27.503 time, which was really exciting. 00:09:28.203 --> 00:09:30.933 but restaurants and baby girls don't go together. 00:09:31.213 --> 00:09:34.193 I ended up going to Johnson and Wales and getting a bachelor's 00:09:34.203 --> 00:09:36.223 and doing some corporate work. 00:09:36.233 --> 00:09:42.033 I was a business development guy and I got into this, professional sales, 00:09:42.073 --> 00:09:45.183 if you will, for lack of better words, and I sold clean room design, 00:09:45.983 --> 00:09:49.843 which was really neat and great for the ego because I was hanging out 00:09:49.873 --> 00:09:51.663 with literally rocket scientists. 00:09:51.988 --> 00:09:53.918 And flying all over the world and, 00:09:54.868 --> 00:09:56.438 Aaron: what were you selling? 00:09:57.113 --> 00:09:57.453 Jesse: yeah. 00:09:57.503 --> 00:09:58.853 so it's a clean room. 00:09:58.903 --> 00:10:01.913 I don't know if you remember, but do you remember the ads a couple 00:10:01.913 --> 00:10:06.253 of years ago from Intel and you had those guys in those bunny suits 00:10:06.448 --> 00:10:06.848 Aaron: yeah. 00:10:07.253 --> 00:10:11.293 Jesse: yeah, that's a clean room and what it is it's a room it's. 00:10:11.613 --> 00:10:17.553 Literally, it's a lab or room that has almost no particles in it, 00:10:17.673 --> 00:10:20.473 like these micro nano particles. 00:10:21.183 --> 00:10:24.263 it's really interesting, how those particles mess everything 00:10:24.263 --> 00:10:30.203 up and how simple it is to create a clean environment. 00:10:30.223 --> 00:10:31.843 It's all mechanical engineering. 00:10:32.293 --> 00:10:35.893 It's all filtrations and moving air and things like that. 00:10:36.063 --> 00:10:37.263 it was fascinating. 00:10:37.483 --> 00:10:38.473 I even got to speak. 00:10:38.493 --> 00:10:43.263 I was invited to speak, at a forum in Germany and I will never, that 00:10:43.263 --> 00:10:45.323 was the best trade show ever. 00:10:45.363 --> 00:10:48.183 You could smoke on the floor and everybody poured you drinks. 00:10:48.273 --> 00:10:48.813 was heaven. 00:10:49.503 --> 00:10:50.253 It was heaven. 00:10:51.573 --> 00:10:54.293 But, one thing led to another, and that whole. 00:10:56.113 --> 00:10:56.733 reopened. 00:10:57.023 --> 00:10:59.273 the alcohol was no longer working. 00:10:59.563 --> 00:11:04.333 my first rehab, I was able to, refrain from the drugs. 00:11:04.503 --> 00:11:07.403 And what I mean by drugs is non alcohol substances. 00:11:08.093 --> 00:11:10.033 but I just couldn't let go of the alcohol. 00:11:10.183 --> 00:11:15.063 I remember when I was in rehab, there was this lady, across the hall, across 00:11:15.063 --> 00:11:17.053 the little courtyard, and she was mean. 00:11:17.243 --> 00:11:19.943 She smelled, she walked around in these slippers. 00:11:19.943 --> 00:11:22.593 And these Ugly dresses, just mean. 00:11:23.503 --> 00:11:26.293 and I figured that she was an alcoholic. 00:11:26.443 --> 00:11:29.583 I was a drug addict, so thank God I wasn't like her. 00:11:30.428 --> 00:11:34.228 Well, it turns out 15 years later, I was her in a male version. 00:11:34.488 --> 00:11:35.328 so much for that. 00:11:35.328 --> 00:11:35.608 Right. 00:11:36.518 --> 00:11:38.178 But what did happen? 00:11:38.288 --> 00:11:41.408 raising Angie, I knew I had a responsibility to introduce her 00:11:41.408 --> 00:11:46.618 to God, not knowing exactly who God was, been in and out of AA. 00:11:46.648 --> 00:11:48.688 So I went back to rehab, sobered up. 00:11:48.968 --> 00:11:53.018 again, and this time I was going to do it, just so you know, there was one other 00:11:53.018 --> 00:11:59.868 time and about six more trips to AA, but I, I was always around the rooms, whatnot. 00:12:01.338 --> 00:12:06.058 35, I had remarried, the hole had reopened again. 00:12:06.238 --> 00:12:06.873 I was. 00:12:07.253 --> 00:12:10.533 Drinking just tons of substances to fill that hole. 00:12:10.753 --> 00:12:16.933 however, I had started really going back to church and, you'll find 00:12:16.933 --> 00:12:19.043 out in a minute that I'm a pastor. 00:12:20.713 --> 00:12:23.373 Church is just a building, but I went back to church. 00:12:23.403 --> 00:12:25.093 I went back looking for a community. 00:12:25.743 --> 00:12:28.803 I went back looking, for God, just. 00:12:29.673 --> 00:12:34.763 Here again, I didn't know what it was, but I knew what I thought and felt 00:12:34.773 --> 00:12:36.683 about God wasn't the whole picture. 00:12:36.723 --> 00:12:38.053 There, there had to be more. 00:12:39.253 --> 00:12:43.023 so it was a neat adventure for Audrey and I, we did some church shopping, we 00:12:43.023 --> 00:12:47.613 went Baptist for a little bit, we went Wisconsin Lutheran and we ended up at, 00:12:47.723 --> 00:12:50.883 cross point in Katy, Texas, and it was. 00:12:51.228 --> 00:12:54.788 The Lutheran Missouri Synod, but it was very modern. 00:12:54.968 --> 00:12:58.638 they call it, ancient something, but modern something. 00:12:58.648 --> 00:13:01.968 I actually forget the logo, but it was, it was phenomenal. 00:13:02.048 --> 00:13:05.858 I met this pastor, Matt Popovitz, who's just an incredible. 00:13:06.578 --> 00:13:13.748 Incredible pastor and, just was introduced to a Jesus that I had 00:13:13.748 --> 00:13:18.498 hoped for, if that makes any sense, I had gone back to the rooms and I 00:13:18.498 --> 00:13:21.008 had met this gentleman, long hair. 00:13:22.538 --> 00:13:23.788 I think he was missing two teeth. 00:13:24.498 --> 00:13:26.058 Jones's beat up pickup truck. 00:13:26.538 --> 00:13:30.338 he was a butcher, where I, was college educated. 00:13:30.338 --> 00:13:33.838 I was not at the height, but I was. 00:13:34.673 --> 00:13:40.673 Making a pretty good buck, drove a nice car, had a haircut, but every time he 00:13:40.683 --> 00:13:45.633 said something and every time he answered a question, God was in the answer. 00:13:46.133 --> 00:13:50.503 And, so I asked him to be my sponsor and I said, I've been here, I've done 00:13:50.503 --> 00:13:51.953 that, but I've never done it right. 00:13:52.203 --> 00:13:52.838 will you help? 00:13:53.838 --> 00:13:59.048 And, it turns out that the meeting that I met him at and went at, another 00:13:59.048 --> 00:14:02.768 guy came in at about the same time that I did, and the room had bets 00:14:02.828 --> 00:14:07.218 on who was going to make it, and the bet was not, the bet was not on me, 00:14:07.388 --> 00:14:13.398 I always found that to be very, very, very interesting, but, his very first 00:14:13.398 --> 00:14:15.068 question to me is, okay, are you done? 00:14:16.038 --> 00:14:18.198 And my answer was, I sure do hope so. 00:14:19.098 --> 00:14:20.748 And I don't know why to this day. 00:14:20.758 --> 00:14:25.578 I don't, I'm, I have some theories, but I don't exactly know why, but he said, 00:14:25.578 --> 00:14:27.218 that is the best answer I've ever heard. 00:14:27.698 --> 00:14:28.568 And I was like, okay. 00:14:29.438 --> 00:14:31.618 So that started a relationship. 00:14:31.688 --> 00:14:32.878 happy was his name. 00:14:33.058 --> 00:14:38.718 And, he's since left us, but man, he was just such a neat guy. 00:14:39.128 --> 00:14:40.218 It was unbelievable. 00:14:40.228 --> 00:14:45.078 Loved God, gave his life to God, made like no money. 00:14:45.638 --> 00:14:47.408 but he was peaceful and he was happy. 00:14:47.908 --> 00:14:51.198 And he, It was always there for you and never mattered. 00:14:51.428 --> 00:14:53.808 and it was an example that I really needed to see. 00:14:55.798 --> 00:15:00.608 So long story short, I was remarried and then I got divorced. 00:15:00.738 --> 00:15:05.008 I had two other children from that lady and, my son is a hemophiliac. 00:15:07.083 --> 00:15:12.273 My daughter has ended up, going down the route of her father. 00:15:12.413 --> 00:15:14.363 that story is ending very well. 00:15:14.483 --> 00:15:19.163 we'll get to that in a second, but, going to church, being active in the church, 00:15:19.163 --> 00:15:23.173 serving in the church, We started, still going to AA, by the way, still 00:15:23.173 --> 00:15:28.243 struggling a little bit with this, God as I understand him, the group is my God, 00:15:28.373 --> 00:15:30.223 whatever, different things like that. 00:15:30.273 --> 00:15:35.923 I didn't fully understand, because if the group is my God, then I'm actually God. 00:15:36.673 --> 00:15:40.398 Because the minute you make me mad, And I don't go back to the meeting. 00:15:40.558 --> 00:15:42.058 I changed that meeting. 00:15:42.748 --> 00:15:49.858 So it just that didn't work for me because God, whoever, whatever, 00:15:50.308 --> 00:15:52.498 has to be the most powerful. 00:15:52.628 --> 00:15:54.958 Nothing can be more powerful than him. 00:15:55.608 --> 00:15:57.838 Forget me not being more powerful. 00:15:58.558 --> 00:15:59.868 It goes further than that. 00:16:00.008 --> 00:16:00.918 It's not just me. 00:16:00.918 --> 00:16:01.098 It's. 00:16:01.358 --> 00:16:04.888 Anything cannot be more powerful for God to be real. 00:16:05.168 --> 00:16:07.038 He's got to be the ultimate power. 00:16:07.768 --> 00:16:10.748 and if you have another seven and a half hours, we could 00:16:10.948 --> 00:16:14.528 theologically discuss that, but that's for another podcast anyways. 00:16:15.448 --> 00:16:16.878 really putting my life together. 00:16:17.048 --> 00:16:20.538 I have been fortunate enough to meet my, if you will, real wife. 00:16:21.308 --> 00:16:25.088 We're coming up on 16 years and just an incredible woman. 00:16:25.098 --> 00:16:26.678 We've got some twins. 00:16:26.728 --> 00:16:28.268 So I've got this big family. 00:16:29.068 --> 00:16:31.088 it's just turned out to be a wonderful life. 00:16:31.308 --> 00:16:35.508 And through all that, I've been growing in my faith. 00:16:35.508 --> 00:16:37.508 I went to celebrate recovery. 00:16:37.518 --> 00:16:40.538 I've done life recovery, stayed in the meetings. 00:16:41.168 --> 00:16:42.288 one thing led to another. 00:16:42.288 --> 00:16:45.488 I started out, in fact, for all your listeners, if you 00:16:45.498 --> 00:16:47.218 don't want to be involved. 00:16:47.753 --> 00:16:50.933 In a religious organization, a church, or whatever you want to call it, 00:16:51.213 --> 00:16:55.873 you never raise your hand, because I said, sure, I'd love to stack chairs. 00:16:56.523 --> 00:17:01.633 And the next thing I know, I am, leading a Celebrate Recovery group, had some 00:17:01.633 --> 00:17:06.583 issues with that, and we switched to what I call Grace 812, and this was, 00:17:07.253 --> 00:17:09.983 14 years ago now, Grace being the gift. 00:17:10.343 --> 00:17:14.903 Eight being the truth, which are the Beatitudes that Jesus spoke. 00:17:15.373 --> 00:17:18.163 But who's kidding who, we can't live like that. 00:17:18.243 --> 00:17:21.513 So we need a path, which is the 12, the 12 steps. 00:17:22.343 --> 00:17:26.353 I firmly believe that the 12 steps is, probably the best discipleship 00:17:26.393 --> 00:17:28.523 pathway I have ever discovered. 00:17:29.263 --> 00:17:33.613 and one of my dreams is to bring the rooms to the pulpit and take 00:17:33.883 --> 00:17:35.253 the pulpit back to the rooms. 00:17:35.333 --> 00:17:37.943 when AA started, they would get together and the first thing 00:17:37.943 --> 00:17:39.033 they do is read scripture. 00:17:39.353 --> 00:17:43.683 Aaron: We'd both like to get it back to the origins of AA. 00:17:43.733 --> 00:17:45.383 it was a lot more powerful then. 00:17:46.153 --> 00:17:46.513 Jesse: yeah, 00:17:46.873 --> 00:17:48.873 Aaron: But let me ask you, I've never heard of mm. 00:17:50.026 --> 00:17:51.156 Grace 812. 00:17:51.206 --> 00:17:54.936 Is that something that was just in that church or what? 00:17:56.386 --> 00:17:57.756 Jesse: Now, it's something that I developed. 00:17:58.606 --> 00:18:02.116 Quite honestly, it's a combination of Celebrate Recovery, Life 00:18:02.116 --> 00:18:05.886 Recovery, AA, NA, and Al Anon. 00:18:06.756 --> 00:18:07.286 Aaron: Awesome. 00:18:07.286 --> 00:18:07.706 Yeah. 00:18:07.706 --> 00:18:10.326 Yeah. 00:18:10.556 --> 00:18:13.886 Jesse: two churches, and then I moved away and it died down. 00:18:14.576 --> 00:18:18.316 went away, and I've been moving, for various reasons. 00:18:18.336 --> 00:18:21.866 I went to New Jersey and that kind of blew up in my face. 00:18:21.876 --> 00:18:23.106 So I came back to Texas. 00:18:23.136 --> 00:18:31.006 And when I came back, by the time I came back, which is, or 2019, long 00:18:31.006 --> 00:18:34.506 progression of things, literally from starting to raise my hand to one thing 00:18:34.506 --> 00:18:36.356 led to another and, I'm teaching. 00:18:36.356 --> 00:18:40.571 And then the next thing is, I'm taking this lay minister class, and then the next 00:18:40.571 --> 00:18:45.631 thing I know I'm in seminary, and then the next thing I know I'm in this ordination 00:18:45.661 --> 00:18:49.021 program with the Presbyterian Church. 00:18:49.861 --> 00:18:57.025 So, I was kind of struggling with this sometimes, talking about meeting Jesus. 00:18:57.815 --> 00:19:02.015 I'm not sure if it was an interview or if I was just explaining my call, but I had a 00:19:02.035 --> 00:19:04.405 church that wanted to hear more about me. 00:19:04.455 --> 00:19:08.415 And when we were talking about what I wanted to do as a pastor and things 00:19:08.415 --> 00:19:10.615 like that, I showed them my Grace 812. 00:19:10.765 --> 00:19:14.035 I've got a little proposal and budgets and all that kind of stuff. 00:19:14.430 --> 00:19:17.650 Stuff, very well footnoted, And they said, this is awesome. 00:19:18.740 --> 00:19:19.850 One thing led to another. 00:19:19.970 --> 00:19:24.900 They, presented me with a call to be the pastor of outreach and recovery. 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:28.400 so I was like, done, sold. 00:19:29.040 --> 00:19:31.890 So I am in the heart of Houston. 00:19:31.890 --> 00:19:32.130 I'm. 00:19:33.655 --> 00:19:36.675 A heart of Houston, Texas has got, Houston's got a 00:19:36.675 --> 00:19:37.635 couple of different hearts. 00:19:38.205 --> 00:19:40.915 but this is, an older kind of heart. 00:19:41.575 --> 00:19:45.275 at one time it was extremely white and extremely wealthy. 00:19:45.855 --> 00:19:48.975 now it is one of the most diverse parts of the city, both 00:19:49.005 --> 00:19:52.005 economically, ethically, it is just. 00:19:52.410 --> 00:19:54.480 It is a wonderful place to be. 00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:58.670 so I jumped at the chance, and I brought Grace Aid 12 back. 00:19:58.980 --> 00:20:05.450 in fact, Grace Aid 12 is what got me, into life recovery because during 00:20:05.470 --> 00:20:10.100 COVID, where you and I crossed paths a little bit, I did a life recovery 00:20:10.100 --> 00:20:13.570 group via Zoom, which was neat. 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:15.000 That was a neat experience. 00:20:15.050 --> 00:20:19.280 So when I came here, ironically enough, it's called Grace Presbyterian. 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:22.530 but Grace Age 12 was created years before. 00:20:22.770 --> 00:20:23.140 So 00:20:25.750 --> 00:20:30.020 at the end of the day, I could have never, 00:20:32.060 --> 00:20:35.180 I could have never met Jesus without this story. 00:20:35.630 --> 00:20:37.720 I would have known a textbook Jesus. 00:20:38.170 --> 00:20:41.530 perhaps I would have known a kind of a fly by night Jesus. 00:20:42.270 --> 00:20:47.890 But I would never, I don't believe, that I would have ever been, if you 00:20:47.890 --> 00:20:52.810 will, dedicated, convinced, bought into whatever you want to say, to a 00:20:52.810 --> 00:20:57.250 god and to a savior without this story. 00:20:57.970 --> 00:21:03.135 Bottoms, There, there's no deep bottom or light bottom. 00:21:03.255 --> 00:21:04.125 Bottom is bottom. 00:21:04.495 --> 00:21:10.205 And when you, or I guess I should say, when I realized that I didn't have 00:21:10.315 --> 00:21:15.885 any part in any of this other than to show up, once I did that, then. 00:21:16.405 --> 00:21:17.375 then I started to live. 00:21:17.765 --> 00:21:21.085 and that was 20 years ago in January, been clean and sober. 00:21:21.095 --> 00:21:22.445 So that's it's always weird too. 00:21:22.445 --> 00:21:26.505 When I tell people that they, I've got tons of degrees, I'm ordained. 00:21:26.505 --> 00:21:28.515 I've got licenses, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:21:29.555 --> 00:21:33.825 But people are most proud, of me and congratulate me or whatever. 00:21:34.315 --> 00:21:37.295 when I tell them that I'm coming up on 20 years, it's, it's 00:21:37.305 --> 00:21:39.125 really it's interesting that's. 00:21:39.791 --> 00:21:44.391 My mark on this world that somebody actually can be such a mess and actually 00:21:44.991 --> 00:21:46.761 by the grace of God clean up, right? 00:21:47.051 --> 00:21:47.591 So 00:21:48.186 --> 00:21:51.156 Aaron: it's a good way to magnify God saying, He got me this far. 00:21:51.801 --> 00:21:52.151 Jesse: yep. 00:21:52.271 --> 00:21:53.351 Yeah, it sure is. 00:21:54.041 --> 00:21:59.991 Yeah, there's this gentleman, who's a Professor I think it's Northwestern 00:22:00.001 --> 00:22:05.151 Seminary And he makes the comment quite often that the reason why he's a pastor. 00:22:05.201 --> 00:22:09.056 That's the only way he God could have kept him close to him. 00:22:10.176 --> 00:22:11.996 I feel, I feel the same way, right? 00:22:12.306 --> 00:22:12.776 Aaron: Yeah. 00:22:13.556 --> 00:22:16.256 Jesse: Because I'm a pastor, I have responsibilities of, 00:22:16.316 --> 00:22:17.766 getting into the Word every day. 00:22:18.766 --> 00:22:20.586 But, so that's my Jesus story. 00:22:20.586 --> 00:22:26.796 And where it ends, to the best of my ability, I work the steps every 00:22:26.796 --> 00:22:32.611 day, realizing that it's not When I say God of my understanding, 00:22:32.741 --> 00:22:34.411 it's not that I get to name him. 00:22:34.621 --> 00:22:36.191 It's not that I get to define him. 00:22:36.471 --> 00:22:38.261 It's that I understand him. 00:22:38.431 --> 00:22:41.811 And every day, my understanding of God changes. 00:22:42.216 --> 00:22:48.346 And I think that's probably one of the most important things that I grab onto. 00:22:48.906 --> 00:22:54.456 The knowledge that I hear on earth, I will never know God fully, 00:22:54.966 --> 00:22:59.256 and I can continue to grow and I can continue to relationship. 00:22:59.951 --> 00:23:01.571 I do some neat things today. 00:23:01.751 --> 00:23:05.601 every Wednesday I have my Jesus lunch, and it's in my calendar 00:23:05.731 --> 00:23:07.251 and I go to lunch with Jesus. 00:23:07.411 --> 00:23:10.701 sometimes I bring a friend, sometimes I bring a stranger and 00:23:10.701 --> 00:23:12.221 I tell them Jesus is with us. 00:23:12.281 --> 00:23:13.511 Sometimes I go by myself. 00:23:14.211 --> 00:23:18.441 I am, I'm fortunate enough, to be in this pastoring role. 00:23:18.961 --> 00:23:22.841 We started a Tuesday night service, which is contemplative in nature. 00:23:23.586 --> 00:23:27.496 I'm a huge Richard Rohr fan, if you've ever read Breathing Underwater, 00:23:28.011 --> 00:23:31.281 and the fact that I love when he says I can't believe the Catholic 00:23:31.311 --> 00:23:32.511 Church hasn't kicked me out yet. 00:23:32.691 --> 00:23:34.251 I'm like, yeah, I can't believe it either. 00:23:34.251 --> 00:23:36.761 But as soon as he does, think about being a Presbyterian. 00:23:37.026 --> 00:23:37.156 Aaron: Yeah. 00:23:37.931 --> 00:23:42.531 Jesse: and it's this grace 812 and I get to find the steps in the Bible. 00:23:42.861 --> 00:23:47.031 all the steps from, the first, what, four or five from the Oxford group, 00:23:47.281 --> 00:23:52.361 to the 12 steps that we know from the big book, it's all scripturally based. 00:23:52.863 --> 00:23:53.163 MacBook Air Microphone: Yep. 00:23:53.497 --> 00:23:54.567 Jesse: and I love that. 00:23:54.788 --> 00:23:59.468 Security, maybe is a good word that I am believing and I am acting 00:23:59.488 --> 00:24:03.928 and I am striving to behave in a way that's based on the truth. 00:24:06.068 --> 00:24:10.158 And now I'll have someone say, yeah, but your truth isn't my truth. 00:24:10.848 --> 00:24:13.008 let's take off the pastor hat for just a second. 00:24:13.808 --> 00:24:14.828 Truth is truth. 00:24:15.578 --> 00:24:17.008 Truth can't be different. 00:24:17.108 --> 00:24:19.288 Otherwise, by definition, it's not truth. 00:24:19.798 --> 00:24:22.238 to be, there has to be one truth, right? 00:24:22.338 --> 00:24:25.708 every day I wake up, and I look at my day and I ask God for help. 00:24:25.748 --> 00:24:30.188 And every day when I end my day, I look at how the day went, look 00:24:30.188 --> 00:24:32.448 at, Not what did I do wrong? 00:24:33.428 --> 00:24:34.448 How could I do better? 00:24:34.628 --> 00:24:36.148 How could I serve others better? 00:24:36.338 --> 00:24:37.678 How could I serve God better? 00:24:38.488 --> 00:24:39.838 and that allows me to sleep. 00:24:40.018 --> 00:24:44.728 there's, we can go a thousand different directions, but at the 00:24:44.728 --> 00:24:46.418 end of the day, my life is a mess. 00:24:46.648 --> 00:24:47.898 It's an absolute mess. 00:24:48.558 --> 00:24:55.138 but I'm at peace and I'm happy and I'm in this state of joy and joy is to 00:24:55.138 --> 00:24:56.858 me, I don't think joy is an emotion. 00:24:56.868 --> 00:24:58.218 I'm happy with that emotion. 00:24:58.653 --> 00:25:00.963 Joy is a state of being right? 00:25:01.693 --> 00:25:09.333 and it's Not always easy, but I am, for the most part, joyful in all things. 00:25:09.593 --> 00:25:11.893 And that's, that's more than I could ever have hoped for. 00:25:12.783 --> 00:25:16.043 Aaron: can you explain a little bit what you meant by your life is 00:25:16.083 --> 00:25:19.108 in a mess and yet you're joyful? 00:25:19.148 --> 00:25:19.498 Yeah. 00:25:19.738 --> 00:25:20.168 Jesse: yeah. 00:25:20.218 --> 00:25:26.338 I, like I spoke of my second daughter, she, Her mother and she, very difficult 00:25:26.338 --> 00:25:31.528 relationship for better words, and my daughter has decided to turn 00:25:31.528 --> 00:25:33.928 to other things to fill her hole. 00:25:34.288 --> 00:25:36.918 And, she, she came to me and said, help. 00:25:37.223 --> 00:25:38.313 And I said, absolutely. 00:25:38.733 --> 00:25:40.063 But this is what we're going to do. 00:25:40.263 --> 00:25:42.073 And we did a bunch of different things. 00:25:42.123 --> 00:25:44.663 And we went to church, we read the Bible, we prayed. 00:25:44.733 --> 00:25:47.263 And I don't mean like church, like you have to be there 00:25:47.263 --> 00:25:48.483 at nine o'clock on Sunday. 00:25:48.613 --> 00:25:51.193 church for me is more of a posture, right? 00:25:51.293 --> 00:25:55.073 I'll come to your house for dinner and when you invite me, I'll, whatever. 00:25:55.073 --> 00:25:59.363 I'll bring a dessert or something, but I just go to my mom's right. 00:25:59.463 --> 00:26:01.023 in fact, I just walk in. 00:26:01.833 --> 00:26:04.733 that's the, that's the feeling I have when I come to church and 00:26:04.743 --> 00:26:08.803 even churches that isn't my church that I'm visiting or whatnot. 00:26:09.163 --> 00:26:12.173 it's the Lord's house and he welcomes us. 00:26:13.083 --> 00:26:13.933 So there's this. 00:26:14.443 --> 00:26:16.923 This daughter who is struggling. 00:26:16.923 --> 00:26:20.223 And remember, I struggled and my heart bleeds for her. 00:26:20.253 --> 00:26:23.963 I just, there's nothing you can do as a parent, right? 00:26:24.003 --> 00:26:28.863 All you can do is be an example and be there for them when they need to 00:26:28.863 --> 00:26:30.353 talk until two o'clock in the morning. 00:26:31.263 --> 00:26:34.513 economically, like I said before, I was doing pretty well. 00:26:34.633 --> 00:26:38.503 I would later hit my peak or my peak at this date. 00:26:38.533 --> 00:26:39.703 economically, it is. 00:26:40.649 --> 00:26:41.099 Very rough. 00:26:41.339 --> 00:26:44.719 in fact, we recently moved, to a much smaller house. 00:26:44.719 --> 00:26:46.879 We've downsized by two thirds. 00:26:47.619 --> 00:26:49.709 I'm not living the life that I used to live. 00:26:50.029 --> 00:26:53.549 I have a son that's a hemophiliac, and that's tricky. 00:26:53.739 --> 00:26:56.209 especially now that he's grown up and he gets to do what he wants 00:26:56.209 --> 00:27:00.786 to do, apparently does not include taking his infusions every Saturday 00:27:00.786 --> 00:27:02.486 morning at nine o'clock, which. 00:27:02.566 --> 00:27:03.728 Aaron: Yeah. 00:27:03.954 --> 00:27:04.234 Jesse: right? 00:27:04.584 --> 00:27:05.414 I'm getting older. 00:27:06.134 --> 00:27:10.414 I'll tell you what, there's something happens when you're 50 and you get out of 00:27:10.424 --> 00:27:14.434 bed that first day and the need, it just doesn't feel like it did the day before. 00:27:15.304 --> 00:27:18.524 my mom and dad are getting older and there's, I'm having to care 00:27:18.524 --> 00:27:20.364 for them more than ever before. 00:27:20.364 --> 00:27:22.574 there's, there's challenges in everybody's life, right? 00:27:22.584 --> 00:27:24.534 it's nothing's a piece of cake. 00:27:24.774 --> 00:27:28.140 so that, that's what I meant by a mess or whatever I said. 00:27:28.210 --> 00:27:33.148 Aaron: I always wonder how, pastors handle it because they have to not only 00:27:33.313 --> 00:27:37.770 listen to other people's stuff, try to help other people, but you got your own 00:27:37.770 --> 00:27:42.300 stuff you're dealing with and it sounds to me like you, you've, you've You're 00:27:42.300 --> 00:27:45.270 just trusting in God and day by day. 00:27:45.765 --> 00:27:46.085 Jesse: Yeah. 00:27:46.715 --> 00:27:47.035 Yeah. 00:27:47.085 --> 00:27:49.215 I've gotten to the point that I've realized I don't 00:27:49.225 --> 00:27:50.685 really have any other choice. 00:27:51.345 --> 00:27:54.185 remember when I was saying in the beginning, it just wasn't right. 00:27:54.265 --> 00:27:55.185 something was broken. 00:27:55.215 --> 00:27:59.185 Something was when I trust God, it's not broken. 00:27:59.675 --> 00:28:00.495 it is right. 00:28:01.025 --> 00:28:02.595 That does not mean it's fun. 00:28:02.885 --> 00:28:06.895 That does not mean it's easy, but it does mean that it's right. 00:28:06.995 --> 00:28:08.015 So I can count on it. 00:28:08.305 --> 00:28:10.765 And if I count on it, then you can count on me. 00:28:11.120 --> 00:28:16.660 And that, that self image, that, that self worth that was so pathetically low 00:28:17.230 --> 00:28:21.750 so many years ago, now I'm at the point I gotta keep my ego in check sometimes. 00:28:21.940 --> 00:28:23.940 so my wife, she's so cool. 00:28:23.940 --> 00:28:24.940 She'd be like, really? 00:28:25.190 --> 00:28:27.960 I'd be like, ooh, that wasn't a good really, was it? 00:28:28.070 --> 00:28:28.720 She'd be like, nope. 00:28:30.260 --> 00:28:31.740 it's just neat to live that way. 00:28:31.740 --> 00:28:31.990 I. 00:28:33.380 --> 00:28:33.840 I don't know. 00:28:33.870 --> 00:28:35.510 It's just I live for others. 00:28:35.510 --> 00:28:38.580 and in living for others, I have an awesome life. 00:28:39.610 --> 00:28:43.510 I talked about codependency and that's, I'm not saying it doesn't rear its ugly 00:28:43.510 --> 00:28:47.410 head, but when I say, live for others, I live to be part of a community, right? 00:28:48.010 --> 00:28:53.170 I live to be part of a family, lead a family, being part of a neighborhood even. 00:28:54.816 --> 00:28:58.171 Aaron: could you expand a little bit on that word codependency 00:28:58.171 --> 00:29:00.001 for our listeners to benefit. 00:29:00.941 --> 00:29:05.531 Jesse: yeah, so my understanding of that definition, is that you do 00:29:05.531 --> 00:29:10.921 things for others, you put others first, but it's not for them. 00:29:10.921 --> 00:29:12.291 It's for your own benefit. 00:29:13.081 --> 00:29:14.621 and that benefit can be emotional. 00:29:14.661 --> 00:29:20.791 That benefit can be, in one sense, even spiritual, or physical, where service. 00:29:21.616 --> 00:29:26.686 Where you do something truly for somebody because you're doing it for them, right? 00:29:27.346 --> 00:29:29.946 I made the joke earlier about not raising your hand. 00:29:30.066 --> 00:29:35.666 but seriously, if you're not willing to give of yourself your time, maybe 00:29:35.666 --> 00:29:37.406 even your money or your resources. 00:29:38.351 --> 00:29:40.711 or your skill, then that's not service. 00:29:40.711 --> 00:29:42.301 You're doing it for a different reason. 00:29:42.571 --> 00:29:43.341 Maybe it's selfish. 00:29:43.371 --> 00:29:46.721 Maybe it's codependent, but that codependent is doing it. 00:29:46.721 --> 00:29:49.231 So I feel better about me. 00:29:50.481 --> 00:29:51.081 that's. 00:29:51.451 --> 00:29:52.111 That's the whole key. 00:29:52.111 --> 00:29:53.171 And I can manipulate it. 00:29:53.171 --> 00:29:56.341 So you like me, I can manipulate it so that you owe me. 00:29:56.361 --> 00:29:58.141 I can, whatever I do. 00:29:58.461 --> 00:30:02.311 at the end of the day, it's this fear that I'm not good enough. 00:30:03.041 --> 00:30:09.301 so I act in a codependent manner that allows me, because I got you to do 00:30:09.301 --> 00:30:10.931 something to feel better about myself. 00:30:10.931 --> 00:30:11.831 Oh, 00:30:12.931 --> 00:30:17.511 Aaron: That's the best explanation of codependency I think I've ever heard. 00:30:17.646 --> 00:30:18.096 Jesse: okay. 00:30:18.306 --> 00:30:19.256 Aaron: it's right to the point. 00:30:19.266 --> 00:30:20.826 It's not about the other person. 00:30:20.876 --> 00:30:23.326 It's about us filling that hole, so to speak. 00:30:24.206 --> 00:30:24.566 Jesse: Yeah. 00:30:24.896 --> 00:30:25.306 Yeah. 00:30:26.026 --> 00:30:29.876 I, I'm a firm believer that it's Grace 812 is actually, not marketed. 00:30:30.406 --> 00:30:31.436 For drugs and alcohol. 00:30:31.616 --> 00:30:33.486 it's marketed, life recovery. 00:30:33.876 --> 00:30:36.286 Cause we're all recovering from something. 00:30:36.716 --> 00:30:37.626 Maybe it's cocaine. 00:30:37.636 --> 00:30:38.756 Maybe it's scotch. 00:30:38.876 --> 00:30:40.686 Maybe it's being a senior vice president. 00:30:40.926 --> 00:30:42.816 Maybe it's driving that new Mustang. 00:30:43.386 --> 00:30:47.416 Maybe it's having a girlfriend that looks like, or having a family that 00:30:47.416 --> 00:30:50.376 looks like, We're, we all have our idols. 00:30:50.981 --> 00:30:53.361 and it's our idols that we have to put down. 00:30:54.136 --> 00:30:54.446 Aaron: Yeah. 00:30:56.561 --> 00:30:57.811 that is awesome. 00:30:57.811 --> 00:30:58.611 I appreciate it. 00:30:59.201 --> 00:31:03.431 Since you're, so familiar with life recovery and celebrate recovery and all 00:31:03.431 --> 00:31:09.371 that, I'll ask, when I was studying, life recovery and I, they would talk 00:31:09.381 --> 00:31:15.231 about the different kinds of addictions, like when, just say pornography, That 00:31:15.531 --> 00:31:19.554 it's not just a mental, physical thing. 00:31:19.554 --> 00:31:24.999 it is actually, when we look at pornography, there's dopamine that 00:31:24.999 --> 00:31:29.749 is released And we keep going back to it because we want that dopamine fix. 00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:30.099 Jesse: Yeah. 00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:31.319 Dopamine is part of it. 00:31:31.429 --> 00:31:32.029 Absolutely. 00:31:32.534 --> 00:31:35.624 Aaron: Yeah, and I just use pornography as an example. 00:31:35.624 --> 00:31:42.624 it could be anything that we set up as an idol because we get that dopamine fix, 00:31:42.944 --> 00:31:48.814 And it's so subtle that we're not really aware of it until, We hit a bottom of 00:31:48.814 --> 00:31:51.644 some sort and we have to deal with it. 00:31:52.556 --> 00:31:52.876 Yeah. 00:31:52.961 --> 00:31:55.761 Jesse: think sometimes we have to be a little careful with the 00:31:55.761 --> 00:31:57.581 science behind this though, right? 00:31:57.891 --> 00:31:58.131 okay. 00:31:58.131 --> 00:32:01.541 First of all, science does not prove the Bible and the 00:32:01.541 --> 00:32:03.011 Bible does not prove science. 00:32:03.261 --> 00:32:05.051 they are two different functions. 00:32:05.651 --> 00:32:11.841 So with that being said, I know that God created us in such a way and in 00:32:11.841 --> 00:32:15.591 such an amazing way that we have these little tiny chemicals like dopamine 00:32:16.271 --> 00:32:22.521 that serve a purpose that, that can be, because of, character defects 00:32:22.551 --> 00:32:24.881 or sin, functions in a poor way. 00:32:25.181 --> 00:32:28.401 I am not saying that dopamine is not to blame. 00:32:28.431 --> 00:32:31.941 I am currently on medication that helps me with my dopamine. 00:32:33.271 --> 00:32:37.041 But I think the bigger issue is that whole, right? 00:32:37.411 --> 00:32:42.861 And it's the spiritual side of our created beings. 00:32:42.971 --> 00:32:46.761 Cause we were created physically, we were created emotionally and 00:32:46.761 --> 00:32:48.171 we were created spiritually. 00:32:48.531 --> 00:32:53.681 And when our spiritual, health is so incredibly low, then we go to 00:32:53.741 --> 00:32:55.181 things like pornography, right? 00:32:55.921 --> 00:32:57.051 And it's not about the sex. 00:32:58.351 --> 00:33:01.731 It's about this dopamine, but it goes deeper than that. 00:33:01.861 --> 00:33:03.931 It's this fear that I'm not going to be loved. 00:33:04.161 --> 00:33:08.556 It's this fear that I'm not whatever, it also includes our basic human 00:33:08.556 --> 00:33:10.426 instincts of wanting to procreate. 00:33:10.536 --> 00:33:12.616 there's so much that goes into this. 00:33:12.816 --> 00:33:15.866 But you are absolutely, I agree with you, four hundred percent. 00:33:16.326 --> 00:33:17.426 It doesn't matter what it is. 00:33:17.556 --> 00:33:19.926 pornography, cocaine, gambling, food. 00:33:20.686 --> 00:33:25.626 I, I had real, I had, I'll have to admit, I had real issues with 00:33:25.626 --> 00:33:27.856 overeaters for a couple years. 00:33:27.916 --> 00:33:29.386 I just didn't get it, right? 00:33:29.446 --> 00:33:31.126 just don't eat three Big Macs. 00:33:31.266 --> 00:33:32.696 How hard is that? 00:33:33.187 --> 00:33:34.787 you weigh three hundred pounds. 00:33:34.967 --> 00:33:36.017 Do something about it. 00:33:37.047 --> 00:33:41.687 And, I had this lady, who I considered a friend and who we trusted each other 00:33:41.687 --> 00:33:47.217 and she was in OA and so we would talk recovery and she went down her story 00:33:47.217 --> 00:33:53.067 path and I literally closed my eyes and rolled my head and she said something 00:33:53.647 --> 00:33:59.107 and I started to listen for the very first time and she told my story. 00:33:59.722 --> 00:34:04.492 But where it was a Big Mac for her, it was scotch for me, where it was French fries 00:34:04.492 --> 00:34:11.162 for her, it was cocaine for me, where it was, hiding, in the drive out lane or the 00:34:11.162 --> 00:34:15.122 drive through lane, it was, me sneaking out in the middle of the night, going 00:34:15.122 --> 00:34:16.877 to the bar on Saturday so I could get. 00:34:17.197 --> 00:34:19.837 Everything I needed for Sunday because the liquor stores were closed. 00:34:19.967 --> 00:34:24.947 it was exactly the same and she may have been a heavy girl, but there were plenty 00:34:24.947 --> 00:34:28.667 of days that I didn't smell very good because I hadn't showered in four days. 00:34:28.867 --> 00:34:32.907 so it's really interesting, how this thing called addiction works 00:34:33.027 --> 00:34:37.987 and for that matter, how recovery works and heals us of that. 00:34:38.117 --> 00:34:39.317 but the healing isn't. 00:34:39.697 --> 00:34:41.097 Isn't in the 12 steps. 00:34:41.447 --> 00:34:42.977 It's not in the medicine. 00:34:43.597 --> 00:34:45.747 the healing is in our relationship with God. 00:34:45.987 --> 00:34:50.127 In fact, the 12 step doesn't promise the 12 steps don't process anything. 00:34:50.717 --> 00:34:54.157 The only thing we're told, and I, let me just take a step back. 00:34:54.197 --> 00:34:56.877 I realized that there are the promises in the big book, and 00:34:56.967 --> 00:34:58.227 I'm a firm believer in that. 00:34:58.817 --> 00:35:03.067 But I guess what I mean is the 12 steps as a whole doesn't necessarily. 00:35:03.522 --> 00:35:05.422 Promise me I'm not going to drink, doesn't promise me. 00:35:05.422 --> 00:35:09.182 I'm not going to look at pornography, but what it does tell me is the 00:35:09.182 --> 00:35:11.962 result of these steps of working. 00:35:11.962 --> 00:35:14.752 These steps of living, these steps is the spiritual experience. 00:35:16.322 --> 00:35:23.272 that is the result, tons and tons of on top of it, by working the steps. 00:35:23.272 --> 00:35:27.582 like I said, in the beginning, 12 steps is a spiritual pathway 00:35:27.582 --> 00:35:28.742 that is just incredible. 00:35:29.342 --> 00:35:31.842 but at the end of it, it is relationship with God. 00:35:31.892 --> 00:35:32.452 That is. 00:35:33.047 --> 00:35:35.147 that is what heals me of myself. 00:35:35.311 --> 00:35:37.821 Samson Q2U Microphone-1: Yeah, And My take on the 12 steps 00:35:37.821 --> 00:35:41.901 is that they are definitely a means to a spiritual awakening. 00:35:42.131 --> 00:35:44.261 And if we're diligent and persistent. 00:35:44.834 --> 00:35:47.744 Beyond that they can take us to the place where we're. 00:35:47.957 --> 00:35:51.737 We can become humble enough to receive what Jesus is offering. 00:35:52.081 --> 00:35:55.741 You know, I believe it was a blazer per skull. 00:35:55.894 --> 00:35:59.184 Who said We're all born with a God shaped backing. 00:35:59.394 --> 00:36:04.404 And nothing can fill it, but the father who's made known through Jesus Christ. 00:36:04.827 --> 00:36:07.677 So, you know, God created us in his image. 00:36:07.827 --> 00:36:08.247 So. 00:36:08.247 --> 00:36:12.327 Aaron: were basically spiritual beings, and that spirit is always 00:36:12.524 --> 00:36:14.614 wanting to reconnect with the Father. 00:36:14.664 --> 00:36:16.374 and yet we don't know how. 00:36:16.694 --> 00:36:21.494 So these things that we get ourselves into, whether it's drugs and alcohol 00:36:21.494 --> 00:36:26.724 or overeating or whatever, is an attempt, it's really a spiritual search. 00:36:27.734 --> 00:36:31.594 When, um, when I drank, I was seeking God, and it, it, it sounds kind of 00:36:31.594 --> 00:36:35.314 weird to a non drinker, but I was seeking to transcend this human 00:36:35.314 --> 00:36:37.334 experience and reconnect with this God. 00:36:37.784 --> 00:36:38.784 father spirit. 00:36:39.624 --> 00:36:45.054 So that when we do get born again, when we do, I mean, in AA we find 00:36:45.054 --> 00:36:46.404 God as you understand him, right? 00:36:46.404 --> 00:36:49.344 And that, and that is enough for sobriety. 00:36:49.564 --> 00:36:54.674 But if we really want to fill that vacuum, we continue seeking and we 00:36:54.714 --> 00:36:58.878 continue to, Try to reconnect our spirit with God's spirit, and you know, 00:36:58.878 --> 00:37:03.258 Jesus said that those who worship God must worship in spirit and in truth. 00:37:03.838 --> 00:37:08.233 In other words, when we get born again, It's our spirits 00:37:08.263 --> 00:37:10.263 that are reconnected with God. 00:37:10.323 --> 00:37:12.963 Well, Jesus used the word Born from above. 00:37:13.523 --> 00:37:18.313 And that's the reconnecting of our human spirit with his spirit, and 00:37:18.363 --> 00:37:22.713 that's the difference between a relationship with Jesus and religion. 00:37:23.553 --> 00:37:26.873 Because religion, religion's all coming from our head, right? 00:37:27.213 --> 00:37:31.153 But, but this relationship is coming through that spirit. 00:37:32.229 --> 00:37:32.899 Jesse: Agreed. 00:37:33.379 --> 00:37:34.359 That was well said. 00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:35.689 That was very well said. 00:37:35.689 --> 00:37:36.019 Yeah. 00:37:36.359 --> 00:37:42.849 It's and it's amazing how our egos can actually allow us to think and feel and 00:37:42.919 --> 00:37:47.939 act, based on what we think the truth is that we're bright enough to do this. 00:37:48.524 --> 00:37:52.834 there are days I can barely tie my shoes, let alone create the world. 00:37:53.314 --> 00:37:57.064 so it's, sometimes I just have to laugh at myself, but it's never 00:37:57.064 --> 00:37:58.444 before I do something stupid. 00:37:58.444 --> 00:37:59.914 It's always after, right? 00:37:59.914 --> 00:38:03.694 Yeah. 00:38:04.764 --> 00:38:10.554 Aaron: But see, here's the thing, if, and to me, the process of renewing your mind 00:38:11.804 --> 00:38:15.074 is the process of remembering who we are. 00:38:15.389 --> 00:38:16.269 in our spirit. 00:38:16.659 --> 00:38:19.389 So it's our spirit that's reborn, not our body. 00:38:19.389 --> 00:38:25.353 So in the flesh, we are going to do these stupid things all kinds of stupid things, 00:38:25.353 --> 00:38:27.273 and we're going to sin again and all that. 00:38:27.273 --> 00:38:36.039 but all along when we're reborn, as He is, so are we in this world we are already In 00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:38.889 our spirits, we are identical to Jesus. 00:38:39.379 --> 00:38:43.479 So to me, renewing my mind is remembering Jesus. 00:38:43.889 --> 00:38:47.179 That identity and not fallen prey to the flesh. 00:38:47.769 --> 00:38:48.669 Does that make sense? 00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:50.009 Jesse: yeah, it makes sense. 00:38:50.059 --> 00:38:55.119 I, I also think that renewing your mind is, in, in that reconnection 00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:57.419 is understanding and learning. 00:38:57.429 --> 00:38:59.589 That's why I really do like the word understanding. 00:38:59.589 --> 00:39:03.629 It's just misunderstood, but learning because you can't believe 00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:05.309 something that you don't know. 00:39:05.754 --> 00:39:07.944 You've got to, you've got to have a knowledge. 00:39:07.954 --> 00:39:10.644 you've got to have a right footing so that you can believe. 00:39:10.644 --> 00:39:13.424 So that, that renewing is that connection. 00:39:13.484 --> 00:39:15.964 And we do that through connections with others. 00:39:15.964 --> 00:39:17.314 We do that through Bible study. 00:39:17.314 --> 00:39:18.864 We do that through working the steps. 00:39:18.914 --> 00:39:20.234 we do that from service. 00:39:20.414 --> 00:39:23.804 so that once I can believe something, then I can live in faith. 00:39:24.194 --> 00:39:26.824 But I'm not going to live in faith unless I believe. 00:39:27.064 --> 00:39:31.394 so it's like this process that we have to go through. 00:39:31.394 --> 00:39:37.304 And I get frustrated sometimes in the room because people don't allow people 00:39:37.304 --> 00:39:38.764 to be at different levels, right? 00:39:39.414 --> 00:39:42.244 in fact, I'm giving a, I'm giving a sermon tonight and 00:39:42.274 --> 00:39:44.444 I'm, using a quote from Buddha. 00:39:45.144 --> 00:39:45.724 he was. 00:39:46.204 --> 00:39:47.034 Wise, right? 00:39:47.084 --> 00:39:48.534 there's wisdom in what he says. 00:39:49.374 --> 00:39:52.724 There's not wisdom enough for me to put him on the pedestal as 00:39:52.724 --> 00:39:54.664 a creator, as an all powerful. 00:39:55.214 --> 00:39:58.594 but just because somebody is a little bit different than I am doesn't mean 00:39:58.594 --> 00:40:00.424 they don't have something to offer. 00:40:01.034 --> 00:40:01.394 Aaron: right? 00:40:01.444 --> 00:40:02.084 Jesse: You know what? 00:40:02.284 --> 00:40:07.234 At the end of the day, my Jesus story is the creation story, right? 00:40:07.334 --> 00:40:09.404 God created me and it was good. 00:40:09.404 --> 00:40:15.964 I was, I smiled and I had a great couple first years and, but because 00:40:15.964 --> 00:40:17.414 of sin, everything was a mess. 00:40:17.939 --> 00:40:22.069 everything was a mess physically, emotionally, socially, financially, 00:40:22.929 --> 00:40:28.529 but it wasn't until Jesus came and sat and waited for me to grab his hand. 00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:33.459 And once I grabbed his hand, it just, it all changed, 00:40:33.844 --> 00:40:34.294 Aaron: Mm. 00:40:34.779 --> 00:40:37.719 Jesse: And if you look at the steps, it's the same way, step one, 00:40:37.729 --> 00:40:38.969 two, and three, what do we say? 00:40:39.019 --> 00:40:40.829 I can't, he can, and I'll let him. 00:40:41.339 --> 00:40:43.629 And if you're going to let him, then you've got work to do. 00:40:43.884 --> 00:40:45.884 And you gotta look at yourself, right? 00:40:46.024 --> 00:40:50.284 And you gotta share your story and you gotta be there for others 00:40:50.284 --> 00:40:51.854 and you gotta make your amends. 00:40:51.854 --> 00:40:54.234 And then you gotta live this spiritual life. 00:40:54.384 --> 00:40:57.791 you gotta do, you gotta do 10 and 11. 00:40:57.791 --> 00:41:03.374 And then because of all of that, I can go out there and serve someone else. 00:41:04.119 --> 00:41:08.549 And what's so amazing about Jesus, is he always comes to us. 00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:10.669 We never go to him, 00:41:11.154 --> 00:41:11.514 right? 00:41:11.724 --> 00:41:16.244 he comes down, he goes up to the mountain with Peter, rips open 00:41:16.494 --> 00:41:20.664 this thing called the world, and we see heaven right there, right? 00:41:20.834 --> 00:41:23.554 The new city in Revelation comes down to us. 00:41:23.994 --> 00:41:26.854 There's some imagery there, and that's not necessarily just 00:41:26.864 --> 00:41:29.464 narrative, but again, he comes to us. 00:41:29.894 --> 00:41:30.784 In the gospels. 00:41:32.269 --> 00:41:33.459 Rome doesn't come to him. 00:41:33.479 --> 00:41:34.179 He goes to Rome. 00:41:34.179 --> 00:41:34.899 he goes here. 00:41:34.899 --> 00:41:39.059 He goes there constantly going all goes. 00:41:39.769 --> 00:41:40.789 and where do they go? 00:41:40.839 --> 00:41:43.219 They go to us, they come to us. 00:41:44.109 --> 00:41:45.129 So I just. 00:41:46.189 --> 00:41:50.949 I am so grateful for a creator that has so much confidence and belief 00:41:50.969 --> 00:41:55.029 and trust in me that he would allow me to sober up and walk with another 00:41:55.029 --> 00:41:59.929 human being as they fight this thing called sin and the world and find him. 00:42:00.099 --> 00:42:00.679 You know what I mean? 00:42:02.499 --> 00:42:03.169 It's just amazing. 00:42:04.594 --> 00:42:05.134 amazing. 00:42:05.789 --> 00:42:10.159 Aaron: that's really what makes life on earth worthwhile is 00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:11.779 when we can help somebody else. 00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:16.969 especially help them discover or understand like you mentioned, 00:42:17.029 --> 00:42:20.629 I think that's why Paul was, Praying for the Ephesians that 00:42:20.789 --> 00:42:22.469 the eyes of their understanding. 00:42:22.539 --> 00:42:23.379 would be open. 00:42:23.999 --> 00:42:27.599 so that they would understand the width and the height and the breadth and just 00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:31.229 the how big and wonderful God really is. 00:42:31.279 --> 00:42:31.579 Jesse: Yeah. 00:42:32.689 --> 00:42:32.989 Yeah. 00:42:33.659 --> 00:42:35.179 Aaron: you just, you got me going here. 00:42:35.819 --> 00:42:36.139 Jesse: good. 00:42:37.009 --> 00:42:37.299 Good. 00:42:37.329 --> 00:42:37.569 Yeah. 00:42:38.154 --> 00:42:44.604 Aaron: Yeah, 00:42:44.709 --> 00:42:46.529 Jesse: I'll be like, did I stir something up? 00:42:46.699 --> 00:42:47.819 And they'll be like, yeah. 00:42:47.839 --> 00:42:49.469 I'll be like, all right, I did my job. 00:42:49.589 --> 00:42:50.319 I'll see you tomorrow. 00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:53.859 Aaron: I seed myself as a seed sower. 00:42:54.559 --> 00:42:58.279 I just throw the seeds and God takes care of the rest. 00:42:58.869 --> 00:42:59.329 Yeah. 00:42:59.329 --> 00:42:59.869 Yeah. 00:43:00.209 --> 00:43:03.199 Jesse: We just have to show up, do the work so 00:43:04.139 --> 00:43:06.329 MacBook Air Microphone-2: Well, Aaron, I've really enjoyed this. 00:43:06.869 --> 00:43:11.819 So before we wrap things up, let me just ask you what one bit of wisdom would 00:43:11.819 --> 00:43:13.589 you like to share with the listeners? 00:43:13.979 --> 00:43:14.489 Out there. 00:43:15.500 --> 00:43:19.760 Jesse: If I had one thing to share, I don't care where it comes from. 00:43:20.060 --> 00:43:22.570 I don't care, who says it? 00:43:23.080 --> 00:43:26.330 do not assume that, you know. 00:43:27.930 --> 00:43:30.330 . That is what has gotten me into so much trouble. 00:43:30.470 --> 00:43:32.030 and that is also what has. 00:43:32.585 --> 00:43:35.395 allowed me to experience this joy and peace. 00:43:35.565 --> 00:43:36.935 I don't even have to say, I don't know. 00:43:37.665 --> 00:43:39.915 All I have to say is I might not know. 00:43:40.675 --> 00:43:42.225 let me let this guy finish. 00:43:42.325 --> 00:43:45.075 So that would be my, that would be my one thing. 00:43:45.975 --> 00:43:47.665 you're not as bright as you think you are. 00:43:48.515 --> 00:43:50.375 You are as pretty, but you're not as bright. 00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:55.000 Aaron: That sounds like humility to me. 00:43:57.590 --> 00:44:00.740 Yeah, you reminded me of the proverb I just read the other day. 00:44:01.010 --> 00:44:03.710 Even a fool is thought wise when he keeps his mouth shut. 00:44:05.375 --> 00:44:05.705 Jesse: Yep. 00:44:06.255 --> 00:44:06.595 Yep. 00:44:07.725 --> 00:44:10.845 Aaron: would you, pray for our listeners before we wrap things up? 00:44:10.955 --> 00:44:14.485 As soon as we say amen, I'll turn off the recording. 00:44:15.220 --> 00:44:15.570 Jesse: Okay. 00:44:15.660 --> 00:44:16.320 Absolutely. 00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:17.720 thank you for letting me do this. 00:44:17.996 --> 00:44:19.706 MacBook Air Microphone-3: Well, I thank you for being here. 00:44:19.706 --> 00:44:24.176 This is the first time I've had a chance to interview another life recovery guy. 00:44:24.176 --> 00:44:27.166 MacBook Air Microphone-4: So go ahead and pray wherever the Lord Legion. 00:44:28.252 --> 00:44:28.782 Jesse: Absolutely. 00:44:29.505 --> 00:44:30.985 Dear father, I thank you. 00:44:31.225 --> 00:44:35.455 I thank you for this technology that brings us all together and for the 00:44:35.455 --> 00:44:39.355 people that are going to listen to this from wherever they are, it's just so 00:44:39.355 --> 00:44:44.835 incredible, the tools and the places that you put us, thank you for this 00:44:44.875 --> 00:44:52.055 time, clearing both Jesse's and my time to, to have a conversation like this. 00:44:53.015 --> 00:44:58.080 I asked for your hand, over everybody who's been a part of this Talk and 00:44:58.140 --> 00:45:02.469 who's ever going to listen to this, that no matter how close we are to 00:45:02.469 --> 00:45:07.560 you, or we think we are to you, bring us closer and let us feel your tongue. 00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:12.730 for those of us that are maybe further away, maybe a little angry, 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:17.980 maybe confused, I ask that you descend the spirit, just nudging 00:45:17.980 --> 00:45:20.600 enough to maybe something new can be 00:45:22.810 --> 00:45:27.290 I cannot thank you enough for my sobriety, For my relationship with 00:45:27.290 --> 00:45:32.950 you, it is because of that I have everything that I have my wife and my 00:45:32.950 --> 00:45:36.260 children and my faith in this place. 00:45:37.370 --> 00:45:38.010 We love you. 00:45:39.240 --> 00:45:40.960 We love you because you loved us first. 00:45:40.980 --> 00:45:42.210 You gave us the example. 00:45:42.676 --> 00:45:47.866 we're even unable to love ourselves until we realize your love for us. 00:45:49.006 --> 00:45:50.706 Even though we will never understand it. 00:45:50.806 --> 00:45:51.556 And we thank you. 00:45:52.146 --> 00:45:55.056 We thank you for all the good and the bad that brings us closer to 00:45:55.056 --> 00:46:01.246 you, And dear Jesus, we will talk again soon in your son's holy name 00:46:02.006 --> 00:46:04.106 and all God's children say, amen. 00:46:04.221 --> 00:46:04.821 Aaron: Amen. 00:46:05.211 --> 00:46:05.701 Thank you. 00:46:06.171 --> 00:46:07.151 Thank you so much, Eric. 00:46:07.556 --> 00:46:08.146 Jesse: thank you. 00:46:12.560 --> 00:46:14.760 Speaker 3: We hope you've been blessed by today's story. 00:46:15.230 --> 00:46:18.950 In case you haven't noticed, there are no advertisements on this podcast, 00:46:19.310 --> 00:46:20.850 and we hope to keep it that way. 00:46:21.500 --> 00:46:25.640 So if you've heard something that you think could help someone you know, please 00:46:25.640 --> 00:46:27.780 share it using the link in the show notes. 00:46:28.610 --> 00:46:32.960 Also, if you will give Faith and Purpose a positive review on your podcast platform, 00:46:33.410 --> 00:46:35.050 you could help more people find it. 00:46:35.660 --> 00:46:39.725 You will probably never know how that small effort can make a big 00:46:39.725 --> 00:46:43.275 difference in someone's life, but our Heavenly Father knows. 00:46:43.775 --> 00:46:48.575 Speaking of sharing, if you know a Jesus follower with a story to tell, please send 00:46:48.575 --> 00:46:50.505 them a link to Faith and Purpose Podcast. 00:46:51.475 --> 00:46:53.635 It may encourage them to tell their story. 00:46:54.035 --> 00:46:55.635 That person may even be you. 00:46:56.105 --> 00:46:59.235 Our only criteria is that Jesus be glorified. 00:47:00.005 --> 00:47:03.515 Most Christians don't share their faith because they mistakenly think 00:47:03.525 --> 00:47:07.895 their story is not interesting enough, or that it's self centered to talk 00:47:07.905 --> 00:47:12.945 about themselves, or that they are not competent to explain the gospel correctly. 00:47:13.385 --> 00:47:14.645 But none of that is relevant. 00:47:15.035 --> 00:47:18.475 If Jesus has changed your life, you have a story to tell. 00:47:19.420 --> 00:47:21.830 All of our stories are completely unique. 00:47:22.130 --> 00:47:26.900 No one has a story like yours, and you may be the only one who can reach someone 00:47:26.900 --> 00:47:28.680 else through telling your experience. 00:47:29.250 --> 00:47:30.620 So don't be intimidated. 00:47:30.950 --> 00:47:36.370 A story is just that, a true account of your own experience, and no one 00:47:36.380 --> 00:47:38.320 can disagree with your experience. 00:47:39.275 --> 00:47:43.455 When we tell what Jesus has done in our lives, we are being obedient to his 00:47:43.455 --> 00:47:47.675 command to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 00:47:48.075 --> 00:47:51.925 It's not about theology, and it's not about how interesting or special you are. 00:47:52.265 --> 00:47:53.925 It's all about Jesus. 00:47:54.705 --> 00:47:59.415 So when you're ready to tell how Jesus has impacted your life, you can let Jesse 00:47:59.415 --> 00:48:02.535 know at his ministry website, jesseduke. 00:48:02.555 --> 00:48:02.815 net. 00:48:03.445 --> 00:48:06.625 There you can download guidelines that will make it easy to 00:48:06.625 --> 00:48:08.085 prepare to tell your story. 00:48:08.705 --> 00:48:11.145 Thank you for listening today and Shalom.