Speaker: Welcome everyone to Faith and Purpose podcast.
Each episode of this podcast contains the personal testimony of an ordinary person
transformed by an extraordinary God.
My name is Kaylin and I'm here to introduce this podcast
for my friend Jesse Duke.
Jesse is a husband, father, author, life recovery guide, lay counselor,
and small group leader, but his most important role is disciple.
As a disciple of Jesus.
Jesse created this podcast to help other believers tell their faith stories.
We'll be hearing the personal testimonies of all sorts of people
who have one thing in common, Jesus has transformed their lives.
Jesus used parables because he created us to learn best through story.
And as we listen to how God has worked in others lives, we find encouragement
and inspiration for our own faith walk.
Whether you are already a believer or just a curious seeker, we believe that
as you listen to these stories, you will be encouraged on your own faith journey.
We are sure that God can speak to you through one of these episodes and that you
will see that our Heavenly Father truly works all things together for our good.
When we simply love and trust him.
If you are currently going through a trial, we believe that you will come
to see that your troubles, heartbreaks, and failures are not gravestones, but
stepping stones into new life in Christ.
Here's Jesse with today's guest.
Aaron: Welcome everybody to Faith and Purpose podcast.
I'm Jesse Duke and today I have a new friend Aaron Harns to tell his
testimony and I'm looking forward to it.
How are you doing Aaron?
Jesse: Oh, pretty good.
How about yourself?
Aaron: I am too blessed to be stressed.
So
tell us your Jesus story.
Jesse: my name is Aaron and I am in my mid 50s and my Jesus story actually
started, right when I was born.
My mother, took me to get baptized.
I was baptized Anglican and pretty much, Consistently throughout my
childhood, we went to church, every Sunday did the Saturday picnics or
whatever, got to be, in my teenage years and, went to youth group.
And for the most part, it was a Lutheran Missouri.
and the reason why I say that it's just to let you know that
it's, it was conservative, for lack of better words, liturgical.
So it was, it was church like on TV for lack of better words.
I don't know when it started.
I, Pretty much contribute third grade, maybe second grade, but
what we call dyslexia, I had when I was, younger and we didn't get it.
We didn't know what it was.
we didn't know how to deal with it.
It, very commonly comes with ADD, or ADHD now, but, I have that.
as well.
So I'm this little boy, awkward because I'm a little boy, little
boys are awkward, and teachers didn't know what to do with me.
I had a hard time studying, hard time learning.
So that started to affect my.
Self image, my self worth, and I really enjoyed church.
one of the neatest things, I ever did, even to this day,
was my confirmation class.
it lasted two years, and I actually still have that textbook.
I don't know what it was, I just Always enjoyed it.
always wanted to learn more, but what I was missing, was a personal
relationship, was a kind of a trusting.
So what I did is I decided to run the ship, drive the car.
I never understood at that age partnership with God, that he was
all powerful and that if I gave my.
My will, my life to him that things would be peaceful and run smoother.
So long story short, with that low self image and, all
the things that go with that.
and then I turned into a teenager.
And if you think little boys are awkward waiting to see a teenage
boy, I became even more awkward.
so I, slowly but surely found, alcohol.
I'll never forget.
I would steal it from my dad's liquor cabinet.
And, one day I filled up literally a red solo cup and went to the bus
stop and, drank enough of it, waiting for the bus that I passed out, on the
bus and ended up in the bus depot.
so that, that was my first big experience.
I was 14.
so that's how my drinking took off.
But, slowly but surely drugs and everything else that comes with that.
but what had happened throughout my teenage years is in that awkwardness in
that, I don't want to say inability, but it is difficult to be dyslexic and to be
ADD, especially in a world where there's no understanding of it, so that self
image, that self worth just plummeted.
Absolutely plummeted.
So later I would later in life, I would learn that we all are born with this hole
and it's because of sin and the garden.
And I don't, I have found that I don't care what it is.
You're gonna fill it with something.
And I filled it with drugs and alcohol, sex, drugs and rock and
roll, for lack of better words, right?
and that, that did a pretty good job for a while.
the age of 17, and then again at the age of 26, I thought, it would
be better for me not to be here.
When I was 17, it was the darkest I've ever been.
And, I knew it wasn't right.
If, and I don't mean right, like correct.
I knew something was wrong.
I had known enough about God, about creation, about why he supposedly
created us, that as I filled that hole up with drugs and alcohol and
everything else, codependency, I am.
Probably one of the best codependents out there.
second to my mother I love you mom, if you hear this, I think that,
but anyways, I just knew it wasn't.
Something was wrong, right?
Something wasn't working.
Something was broken.
So from about, end of 16, maybe midway through 17, I struggled with
that theory, with that thought.
and I was in Scottsdale, Arizona, and I went and, looked at Scottsdale,
Camelback, resort or rehab, however you want to look at it and, really ponder.
Maybe it's this drugs and alcohol that is getting in the way.
At the same time, my father, was struggling with me as well and
was talking to the police and not sure what to do with his son.
and I beat him to the punch, asking to go to rehab before he.
I had decided to do something with the law.
So I ended up in Camelback, about 17 and a half or so.
Sobered up, did the program, was introduced to AA, introduced to
this God of my own understanding.
And I saw things such as people thinking that the mountains were, was their
God or the meetings were their God.
And I'll be honest with you, I drank it hook, line, and sinker.
it was so freeing and so peaceful.
at that point I had wandered away from church, from Jesus, from my faith.
I don't know that I left it on purpose.
I think it was just more of a.
a life situation thing.
I just stopped going and one thing led to another and before you knew it, it
was one month and then it was six months and then it was three years, bounced in
and out of sobriety, went to culinary school and was accepted into that program.
And I was a chef for many years.
personally, I think, Halfway decent one.
I got to open up some restaurants, which is always fun.
very stressful, but fun, fast paced.
perfect for someone with ADD.
it was awesome.
but they, unfortunately, as the chef gave me all the keys, which
included the keys to the bar.
and I very quickly found out, how much power there was in.
Giving people alcohol, to buying drinks, to being that guy.
as that progressed, my drinking got worse, my, my social life blossomed in
numbers, but it actually fell in quality.
that low self worth, that, self image that just is undefined and
just ugly, got worse and worse.
I had a baby girl.
and she, all my kids argue about who's daddy's favorite, but Audrey
and I, we had a really good time.
I was a single dad.
her mom and I separated and, I was able to have her for most of the
time, which was really exciting.
but restaurants and baby girls don't go together.
I ended up going to Johnson and Wales and getting a bachelor's
and doing some corporate work.
I was a business development guy and I got into this, professional sales,
if you will, for lack of better words, and I sold clean room design,
which was really neat and great for the ego because I was hanging out
with literally rocket scientists.
And flying all over the world and,
Aaron: what were you selling?
Jesse: yeah.
so it's a clean room.
I don't know if you remember, but do you remember the ads a couple
of years ago from Intel and you had those guys in those bunny suits
Aaron: yeah.
Jesse: yeah, that's a clean room and what it is it's a room it's.
Literally, it's a lab or room that has almost no particles in it,
like these micro nano particles.
it's really interesting, how those particles mess everything
up and how simple it is to create a clean environment.
It's all mechanical engineering.
It's all filtrations and moving air and things like that.
it was fascinating.
I even got to speak.
I was invited to speak, at a forum in Germany and I will never, that
was the best trade show ever.
You could smoke on the floor and everybody poured you drinks.
was heaven.
It was heaven.
But, one thing led to another, and that whole.
reopened.
the alcohol was no longer working.
my first rehab, I was able to, refrain from the drugs.
And what I mean by drugs is non alcohol substances.
but I just couldn't let go of the alcohol.
I remember when I was in rehab, there was this lady, across the hall, across
the little courtyard, and she was mean.
She smelled, she walked around in these slippers.
And these Ugly dresses, just mean.
and I figured that she was an alcoholic.
I was a drug addict, so thank God I wasn't like her.
Well, it turns out 15 years later, I was her in a male version.
so much for that.
Right.
But what did happen?
raising Angie, I knew I had a responsibility to introduce her
to God, not knowing exactly who God was, been in and out of AA.
So I went back to rehab, sobered up.
again, and this time I was going to do it, just so you know, there was one other
time and about six more trips to AA, but I, I was always around the rooms, whatnot.
35, I had remarried, the hole had reopened again.
I was.
Drinking just tons of substances to fill that hole.
however, I had started really going back to church and, you'll find
out in a minute that I'm a pastor.
Church is just a building, but I went back to church.
I went back looking for a community.
I went back looking, for God, just.
Here again, I didn't know what it was, but I knew what I thought and felt
about God wasn't the whole picture.
There, there had to be more.
so it was a neat adventure for Audrey and I, we did some church shopping, we
went Baptist for a little bit, we went Wisconsin Lutheran and we ended up at,
cross point in Katy, Texas, and it was.
The Lutheran Missouri Synod, but it was very modern.
they call it, ancient something, but modern something.
I actually forget the logo, but it was, it was phenomenal.
I met this pastor, Matt Popovitz, who's just an incredible.
Incredible pastor and, just was introduced to a Jesus that I had
hoped for, if that makes any sense, I had gone back to the rooms and I
had met this gentleman, long hair.
I think he was missing two teeth.
Jones's beat up pickup truck.
he was a butcher, where I, was college educated.
I was not at the height, but I was.
Making a pretty good buck, drove a nice car, had a haircut, but every time he
said something and every time he answered a question, God was in the answer.
And, so I asked him to be my sponsor and I said, I've been here, I've done
that, but I've never done it right.
will you help?
And, it turns out that the meeting that I met him at and went at, another
guy came in at about the same time that I did, and the room had bets
on who was going to make it, and the bet was not, the bet was not on me,
I always found that to be very, very, very interesting, but, his very first
question to me is, okay, are you done?
And my answer was, I sure do hope so.
And I don't know why to this day.
I don't, I'm, I have some theories, but I don't exactly know why, but he said,
that is the best answer I've ever heard.
And I was like, okay.
So that started a relationship.
happy was his name.
And, he's since left us, but man, he was just such a neat guy.
It was unbelievable.
Loved God, gave his life to God, made like no money.
but he was peaceful and he was happy.
And he, It was always there for you and never mattered.
and it was an example that I really needed to see.
So long story short, I was remarried and then I got divorced.
I had two other children from that lady and, my son is a hemophiliac.
My daughter has ended up, going down the route of her father.
that story is ending very well.
we'll get to that in a second, but, going to church, being active in the church,
serving in the church, We started, still going to AA, by the way, still
struggling a little bit with this, God as I understand him, the group is my God,
whatever, different things like that.
I didn't fully understand, because if the group is my God, then I'm actually God.
Because the minute you make me mad, And I don't go back to the meeting.
I changed that meeting.
So it just that didn't work for me because God, whoever, whatever,
has to be the most powerful.
Nothing can be more powerful than him.
Forget me not being more powerful.
It goes further than that.
It's not just me.
It's.
Anything cannot be more powerful for God to be real.
He's got to be the ultimate power.
and if you have another seven and a half hours, we could
theologically discuss that, but that's for another podcast anyways.
really putting my life together.
I have been fortunate enough to meet my, if you will, real wife.
We're coming up on 16 years and just an incredible woman.
We've got some twins.
So I've got this big family.
it's just turned out to be a wonderful life.
And through all that, I've been growing in my faith.
I went to celebrate recovery.
I've done life recovery, stayed in the meetings.
one thing led to another.
I started out, in fact, for all your listeners, if you
don't want to be involved.
In a religious organization, a church, or whatever you want to call it,
you never raise your hand, because I said, sure, I'd love to stack chairs.
And the next thing I know, I am, leading a Celebrate Recovery group, had some
issues with that, and we switched to what I call Grace 812, and this was,
14 years ago now, Grace being the gift.
Eight being the truth, which are the Beatitudes that Jesus spoke.
But who's kidding who, we can't live like that.
So we need a path, which is the 12, the 12 steps.
I firmly believe that the 12 steps is, probably the best discipleship
pathway I have ever discovered.
and one of my dreams is to bring the rooms to the pulpit and take
the pulpit back to the rooms.
when AA started, they would get together and the first thing
they do is read scripture.
Aaron: We'd both like to get it back to the origins of AA.
it was a lot more powerful then.
Jesse: yeah,
Aaron: But let me ask you, I've never heard of mm.
Grace 812.
Is that something that was just in that church or what?
Jesse: Now, it's something that I developed.
Quite honestly, it's a combination of Celebrate Recovery, Life
Recovery, AA, NA, and Al Anon.
Aaron: Awesome.
Yeah.
Jesse: two churches, and then I moved away and it died down.
went away, and I've been moving, for various reasons.
I went to New Jersey and that kind of blew up in my face.
So I came back to Texas.
And when I came back, by the time I came back, which is, or 2019, long
progression of things, literally from starting to raise my hand to one thing
led to another and, I'm teaching.
And then the next thing is, I'm taking this lay minister class, and then the next
thing I know I'm in seminary, and then the next thing I know I'm in this ordination
program with the Presbyterian Church.
So, I was kind of struggling with this sometimes, talking about meeting Jesus.
I'm not sure if it was an interview or if I was just explaining my call, but I had a
church that wanted to hear more about me.
And when we were talking about what I wanted to do as a pastor and things
like that, I showed them my Grace 812.
I've got a little proposal and budgets and all that kind of stuff.
Stuff, very well footnoted, And they said, this is awesome.
One thing led to another.
They, presented me with a call to be the pastor of outreach and recovery.
so I was like, done, sold.
So I am in the heart of Houston.
I'm.
A heart of Houston, Texas has got, Houston's got a
couple of different hearts.
but this is, an older kind of heart.
at one time it was extremely white and extremely wealthy.
now it is one of the most diverse parts of the city, both
economically, ethically, it is just.
It is a wonderful place to be.
so I jumped at the chance, and I brought Grace Aid 12 back.
in fact, Grace Aid 12 is what got me, into life recovery because during
COVID, where you and I crossed paths a little bit, I did a life recovery
group via Zoom, which was neat.
That was a neat experience.
So when I came here, ironically enough, it's called Grace Presbyterian.
but Grace Age 12 was created years before.
So
at the end of the day, I could have never,
I could have never met Jesus without this story.
I would have known a textbook Jesus.
perhaps I would have known a kind of a fly by night Jesus.
But I would never, I don't believe, that I would have ever been, if you
will, dedicated, convinced, bought into whatever you want to say, to a
god and to a savior without this story.
Bottoms, There, there's no deep bottom or light bottom.
Bottom is bottom.
And when you, or I guess I should say, when I realized that I didn't have
any part in any of this other than to show up, once I did that, then.
then I started to live.
and that was 20 years ago in January, been clean and sober.
So that's it's always weird too.
When I tell people that they, I've got tons of degrees, I'm ordained.
I've got licenses, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But people are most proud, of me and congratulate me or whatever.
when I tell them that I'm coming up on 20 years, it's, it's
really it's interesting that's.
My mark on this world that somebody actually can be such a mess and actually
by the grace of God clean up, right?
So
Aaron: it's a good way to magnify God saying, He got me this far.
Jesse: yep.
Yeah, it sure is.
Yeah, there's this gentleman, who's a Professor I think it's Northwestern
Seminary And he makes the comment quite often that the reason why he's a pastor.
That's the only way he God could have kept him close to him.
I feel, I feel the same way, right?
Aaron: Yeah.
Jesse: Because I'm a pastor, I have responsibilities of,
getting into the Word every day.
But, so that's my Jesus story.
And where it ends, to the best of my ability, I work the steps every
day, realizing that it's not When I say God of my understanding,
it's not that I get to name him.
It's not that I get to define him.
It's that I understand him.
And every day, my understanding of God changes.
And I think that's probably one of the most important things that I grab onto.
The knowledge that I hear on earth, I will never know God fully,
and I can continue to grow and I can continue to relationship.
I do some neat things today.
every Wednesday I have my Jesus lunch, and it's in my calendar
and I go to lunch with Jesus.
sometimes I bring a friend, sometimes I bring a stranger and
I tell them Jesus is with us.
Sometimes I go by myself.
I am, I'm fortunate enough, to be in this pastoring role.
We started a Tuesday night service, which is contemplative in nature.
I'm a huge Richard Rohr fan, if you've ever read Breathing Underwater,
and the fact that I love when he says I can't believe the Catholic
Church hasn't kicked me out yet.
I'm like, yeah, I can't believe it either.
But as soon as he does, think about being a Presbyterian.
Aaron: Yeah.
Jesse: and it's this grace 812 and I get to find the steps in the Bible.
all the steps from, the first, what, four or five from the Oxford group,
to the 12 steps that we know from the big book, it's all scripturally based.
MacBook Air Microphone: Yep.
Jesse: and I love that.
Security, maybe is a good word that I am believing and I am acting
and I am striving to behave in a way that's based on the truth.
And now I'll have someone say, yeah, but your truth isn't my truth.
let's take off the pastor hat for just a second.
Truth is truth.
Truth can't be different.
Otherwise, by definition, it's not truth.
to be, there has to be one truth, right?
every day I wake up, and I look at my day and I ask God for help.
And every day when I end my day, I look at how the day went, look
at, Not what did I do wrong?
How could I do better?
How could I serve others better?
How could I serve God better?
and that allows me to sleep.
there's, we can go a thousand different directions, but at the
end of the day, my life is a mess.
It's an absolute mess.
but I'm at peace and I'm happy and I'm in this state of joy and joy is to
me, I don't think joy is an emotion.
I'm happy with that emotion.
Joy is a state of being right?
and it's Not always easy, but I am, for the most part, joyful in all things.
And that's, that's more than I could ever have hoped for.
Aaron: can you explain a little bit what you meant by your life is
in a mess and yet you're joyful?
Yeah.
Jesse: yeah.
I, like I spoke of my second daughter, she, Her mother and she, very difficult
relationship for better words, and my daughter has decided to turn
to other things to fill her hole.
And, she, she came to me and said, help.
And I said, absolutely.
But this is what we're going to do.
And we did a bunch of different things.
And we went to church, we read the Bible, we prayed.
And I don't mean like church, like you have to be there
at nine o'clock on Sunday.
church for me is more of a posture, right?
I'll come to your house for dinner and when you invite me, I'll, whatever.
I'll bring a dessert or something, but I just go to my mom's right.
in fact, I just walk in.
that's the, that's the feeling I have when I come to church and
even churches that isn't my church that I'm visiting or whatnot.
it's the Lord's house and he welcomes us.
So there's this.
This daughter who is struggling.
And remember, I struggled and my heart bleeds for her.
I just, there's nothing you can do as a parent, right?
All you can do is be an example and be there for them when they need to
talk until two o'clock in the morning.
economically, like I said before, I was doing pretty well.
I would later hit my peak or my peak at this date.
economically, it is.
Very rough.
in fact, we recently moved, to a much smaller house.
We've downsized by two thirds.
I'm not living the life that I used to live.
I have a son that's a hemophiliac, and that's tricky.
especially now that he's grown up and he gets to do what he wants
to do, apparently does not include taking his infusions every Saturday
morning at nine o'clock, which.
Aaron: Yeah.
Jesse: right?
I'm getting older.
I'll tell you what, there's something happens when you're 50 and you get out of
bed that first day and the need, it just doesn't feel like it did the day before.
my mom and dad are getting older and there's, I'm having to care
for them more than ever before.
there's, there's challenges in everybody's life, right?
it's nothing's a piece of cake.
so that, that's what I meant by a mess or whatever I said.
Aaron: I always wonder how, pastors handle it because they have to not only
listen to other people's stuff, try to help other people, but you got your own
stuff you're dealing with and it sounds to me like you, you've, you've You're
just trusting in God and day by day.
Jesse: Yeah.
Yeah.
I've gotten to the point that I've realized I don't
really have any other choice.
remember when I was saying in the beginning, it just wasn't right.
something was broken.
Something was when I trust God, it's not broken.
it is right.
That does not mean it's fun.
That does not mean it's easy, but it does mean that it's right.
So I can count on it.
And if I count on it, then you can count on me.
And that, that self image, that, that self worth that was so pathetically low
so many years ago, now I'm at the point I gotta keep my ego in check sometimes.
so my wife, she's so cool.
She'd be like, really?
I'd be like, ooh, that wasn't a good really, was it?
She'd be like, nope.
it's just neat to live that way.
I.
I don't know.
It's just I live for others.
and in living for others, I have an awesome life.
I talked about codependency and that's, I'm not saying it doesn't rear its ugly
head, but when I say, live for others, I live to be part of a community, right?
I live to be part of a family, lead a family, being part of a neighborhood even.
Aaron: could you expand a little bit on that word codependency
for our listeners to benefit.
Jesse: yeah, so my understanding of that definition, is that you do
things for others, you put others first, but it's not for them.
It's for your own benefit.
and that benefit can be emotional.
That benefit can be, in one sense, even spiritual, or physical, where service.
Where you do something truly for somebody because you're doing it for them, right?
I made the joke earlier about not raising your hand.
but seriously, if you're not willing to give of yourself your time, maybe
even your money or your resources.
or your skill, then that's not service.
You're doing it for a different reason.
Maybe it's selfish.
Maybe it's codependent, but that codependent is doing it.
So I feel better about me.
that's.
That's the whole key.
And I can manipulate it.
So you like me, I can manipulate it so that you owe me.
I can, whatever I do.
at the end of the day, it's this fear that I'm not good enough.
so I act in a codependent manner that allows me, because I got you to do
something to feel better about myself.
Oh,
Aaron: That's the best explanation of codependency I think I've ever heard.
Jesse: okay.
Aaron: it's right to the point.
It's not about the other person.
It's about us filling that hole, so to speak.
Jesse: Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I'm a firm believer that it's Grace 812 is actually, not marketed.
For drugs and alcohol.
it's marketed, life recovery.
Cause we're all recovering from something.
Maybe it's cocaine.
Maybe it's scotch.
Maybe it's being a senior vice president.
Maybe it's driving that new Mustang.
Maybe it's having a girlfriend that looks like, or having a family that
looks like, We're, we all have our idols.
and it's our idols that we have to put down.
Aaron: Yeah.
that is awesome.
I appreciate it.
Since you're, so familiar with life recovery and celebrate recovery and all
that, I'll ask, when I was studying, life recovery and I, they would talk
about the different kinds of addictions, like when, just say pornography, That
it's not just a mental, physical thing.
it is actually, when we look at pornography, there's dopamine that
is released And we keep going back to it because we want that dopamine fix.
Jesse: Yeah.
Dopamine is part of it.
Absolutely.
Aaron: Yeah, and I just use pornography as an example.
it could be anything that we set up as an idol because we get that dopamine fix,
And it's so subtle that we're not really aware of it until, We hit a bottom of
some sort and we have to deal with it.
Yeah.
Jesse: think sometimes we have to be a little careful with the
science behind this though, right?
okay.
First of all, science does not prove the Bible and the
Bible does not prove science.
they are two different functions.
So with that being said, I know that God created us in such a way and in
such an amazing way that we have these little tiny chemicals like dopamine
that serve a purpose that, that can be, because of, character defects
or sin, functions in a poor way.
I am not saying that dopamine is not to blame.
I am currently on medication that helps me with my dopamine.
But I think the bigger issue is that whole, right?
And it's the spiritual side of our created beings.
Cause we were created physically, we were created emotionally and
we were created spiritually.
And when our spiritual, health is so incredibly low, then we go to
things like pornography, right?
And it's not about the sex.
It's about this dopamine, but it goes deeper than that.
It's this fear that I'm not going to be loved.
It's this fear that I'm not whatever, it also includes our basic human
instincts of wanting to procreate.
there's so much that goes into this.
But you are absolutely, I agree with you, four hundred percent.
It doesn't matter what it is.
pornography, cocaine, gambling, food.
I, I had real, I had, I'll have to admit, I had real issues with
overeaters for a couple years.
I just didn't get it, right?
just don't eat three Big Macs.
How hard is that?
you weigh three hundred pounds.
Do something about it.
And, I had this lady, who I considered a friend and who we trusted each other
and she was in OA and so we would talk recovery and she went down her story
path and I literally closed my eyes and rolled my head and she said something
and I started to listen for the very first time and she told my story.
But where it was a Big Mac for her, it was scotch for me, where it was French fries
for her, it was cocaine for me, where it was, hiding, in the drive out lane or the
drive through lane, it was, me sneaking out in the middle of the night, going
to the bar on Saturday so I could get.
Everything I needed for Sunday because the liquor stores were closed.
it was exactly the same and she may have been a heavy girl, but there were plenty
of days that I didn't smell very good because I hadn't showered in four days.
so it's really interesting, how this thing called addiction works
and for that matter, how recovery works and heals us of that.
but the healing isn't.
Isn't in the 12 steps.
It's not in the medicine.
the healing is in our relationship with God.
In fact, the 12 step doesn't promise the 12 steps don't process anything.
The only thing we're told, and I, let me just take a step back.
I realized that there are the promises in the big book, and
I'm a firm believer in that.
But I guess what I mean is the 12 steps as a whole doesn't necessarily.
Promise me I'm not going to drink, doesn't promise me.
I'm not going to look at pornography, but what it does tell me is the
result of these steps of working.
These steps of living, these steps is the spiritual experience.
that is the result, tons and tons of on top of it, by working the steps.
like I said, in the beginning, 12 steps is a spiritual pathway
that is just incredible.
but at the end of it, it is relationship with God.
That is.
that is what heals me of myself.
Samson Q2U Microphone-1: Yeah, And My take on the 12 steps
is that they are definitely a means to a spiritual awakening.
And if we're diligent and persistent.
Beyond that they can take us to the place where we're.
We can become humble enough to receive what Jesus is offering.
You know, I believe it was a blazer per skull.
Who said We're all born with a God shaped backing.
And nothing can fill it, but the father who's made known through Jesus Christ.
So, you know, God created us in his image.
So.
Aaron: were basically spiritual beings, and that spirit is always
wanting to reconnect with the Father.
and yet we don't know how.
So these things that we get ourselves into, whether it's drugs and alcohol
or overeating or whatever, is an attempt, it's really a spiritual search.
When, um, when I drank, I was seeking God, and it, it, it sounds kind of
weird to a non drinker, but I was seeking to transcend this human
experience and reconnect with this God.
father spirit.
So that when we do get born again, when we do, I mean, in AA we find
God as you understand him, right?
And that, and that is enough for sobriety.
But if we really want to fill that vacuum, we continue seeking and we
continue to, Try to reconnect our spirit with God's spirit, and you know,
Jesus said that those who worship God must worship in spirit and in truth.
In other words, when we get born again, It's our spirits
that are reconnected with God.
Well, Jesus used the word Born from above.
And that's the reconnecting of our human spirit with his spirit, and
that's the difference between a relationship with Jesus and religion.
Because religion, religion's all coming from our head, right?
But, but this relationship is coming through that spirit.
Jesse: Agreed.
That was well said.
That was very well said.
Yeah.
It's and it's amazing how our egos can actually allow us to think and feel and
act, based on what we think the truth is that we're bright enough to do this.
there are days I can barely tie my shoes, let alone create the world.
so it's, sometimes I just have to laugh at myself, but it's never
before I do something stupid.
It's always after, right?
Yeah.
Aaron: But see, here's the thing, if, and to me, the process of renewing your mind
is the process of remembering who we are.
in our spirit.
So it's our spirit that's reborn, not our body.
So in the flesh, we are going to do these stupid things all kinds of stupid things,
and we're going to sin again and all that.
but all along when we're reborn, as He is, so are we in this world we are already In
our spirits, we are identical to Jesus.
So to me, renewing my mind is remembering Jesus.
That identity and not fallen prey to the flesh.
Does that make sense?
Jesse: yeah, it makes sense.
I, I also think that renewing your mind is, in, in that reconnection
is understanding and learning.
That's why I really do like the word understanding.
It's just misunderstood, but learning because you can't believe
something that you don't know.
You've got to, you've got to have a knowledge.
you've got to have a right footing so that you can believe.
So that, that renewing is that connection.
And we do that through connections with others.
We do that through Bible study.
We do that through working the steps.
we do that from service.
so that once I can believe something, then I can live in faith.
But I'm not going to live in faith unless I believe.
so it's like this process that we have to go through.
And I get frustrated sometimes in the room because people don't allow people
to be at different levels, right?
in fact, I'm giving a, I'm giving a sermon tonight and
I'm, using a quote from Buddha.
he was.
Wise, right?
there's wisdom in what he says.
There's not wisdom enough for me to put him on the pedestal as
a creator, as an all powerful.
but just because somebody is a little bit different than I am doesn't mean
they don't have something to offer.
Aaron: right?
Jesse: You know what?
At the end of the day, my Jesus story is the creation story, right?
God created me and it was good.
I was, I smiled and I had a great couple first years and, but because
of sin, everything was a mess.
everything was a mess physically, emotionally, socially, financially,
but it wasn't until Jesus came and sat and waited for me to grab his hand.
And once I grabbed his hand, it just, it all changed,
Aaron: Mm.
Jesse: And if you look at the steps, it's the same way, step one,
two, and three, what do we say?
I can't, he can, and I'll let him.
And if you're going to let him, then you've got work to do.
And you gotta look at yourself, right?
And you gotta share your story and you gotta be there for others
and you gotta make your amends.
And then you gotta live this spiritual life.
you gotta do, you gotta do 10 and 11.
And then because of all of that, I can go out there and serve someone else.
And what's so amazing about Jesus, is he always comes to us.
We never go to him,
right?
he comes down, he goes up to the mountain with Peter, rips open
this thing called the world, and we see heaven right there, right?
The new city in Revelation comes down to us.
There's some imagery there, and that's not necessarily just
narrative, but again, he comes to us.
In the gospels.
Rome doesn't come to him.
He goes to Rome.
he goes here.
He goes there constantly going all goes.
and where do they go?
They go to us, they come to us.
So I just.
I am so grateful for a creator that has so much confidence and belief
and trust in me that he would allow me to sober up and walk with another
human being as they fight this thing called sin and the world and find him.
You know what I mean?
It's just amazing.
amazing.
Aaron: that's really what makes life on earth worthwhile is
when we can help somebody else.
especially help them discover or understand like you mentioned,
I think that's why Paul was, Praying for the Ephesians that
the eyes of their understanding.
would be open.
so that they would understand the width and the height and the breadth and just
the how big and wonderful God really is.
Jesse: Yeah.
Yeah.
Aaron: you just, you got me going here.
Jesse: good.
Good.
Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah,
Jesse: I'll be like, did I stir something up?
And they'll be like, yeah.
I'll be like, all right, I did my job.
I'll see you tomorrow.
Aaron: I seed myself as a seed sower.
I just throw the seeds and God takes care of the rest.
Yeah.
Jesse: We just have to show up, do the work so
MacBook Air Microphone-2: Well, Aaron, I've really enjoyed this.
So before we wrap things up, let me just ask you what one bit of wisdom would
you like to share with the listeners?
Out there.
Jesse: If I had one thing to share, I don't care where it comes from.
I don't care, who says it?
do not assume that, you know.
. That is what has gotten me into so much trouble.
and that is also what has.
allowed me to experience this joy and peace.
I don't even have to say, I don't know.
All I have to say is I might not know.
let me let this guy finish.
So that would be my, that would be my one thing.
you're not as bright as you think you are.
You are as pretty, but you're not as bright.
Aaron: That sounds like humility to me.
Yeah, you reminded me of the proverb I just read the other day.
Even a fool is thought wise when he keeps his mouth shut.
Jesse: Yep.
Yep.
Aaron: would you, pray for our listeners before we wrap things up?
As soon as we say amen, I'll turn off the recording.
Jesse: Okay.
Absolutely.
thank you for letting me do this.
MacBook Air Microphone-3: Well, I thank you for being here.
This is the first time I've had a chance to interview another life recovery guy.
MacBook Air Microphone-4: So go ahead and pray wherever the Lord Legion.
Jesse: Absolutely.
Dear father, I thank you.
I thank you for this technology that brings us all together and for the
people that are going to listen to this from wherever they are, it's just so
incredible, the tools and the places that you put us, thank you for this
time, clearing both Jesse's and my time to, to have a conversation like this.
I asked for your hand, over everybody who's been a part of this Talk and
who's ever going to listen to this, that no matter how close we are to
you, or we think we are to you, bring us closer and let us feel your tongue.
for those of us that are maybe further away, maybe a little angry,
maybe confused, I ask that you descend the spirit, just nudging
enough to maybe something new can be
I cannot thank you enough for my sobriety, For my relationship with
you, it is because of that I have everything that I have my wife and my
children and my faith in this place.
We love you.
We love you because you loved us first.
You gave us the example.
we're even unable to love ourselves until we realize your love for us.
Even though we will never understand it.
And we thank you.
We thank you for all the good and the bad that brings us closer to
you, And dear Jesus, we will talk again soon in your son's holy name
and all God's children say, amen.
Aaron: Amen.
Thank you.
Thank you so much, Eric.
Jesse: thank you.
Speaker 3: We hope you've been blessed by today's story.
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Speaking of sharing, if you know a Jesus follower with a story to tell, please send
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It may encourage them to tell their story.
That person may even be you.
Our only criteria is that Jesus be glorified.
Most Christians don't share their faith because they mistakenly think
their story is not interesting enough, or that it's self centered to talk
about themselves, or that they are not competent to explain the gospel correctly.
But none of that is relevant.
If Jesus has changed your life, you have a story to tell.
All of our stories are completely unique.
No one has a story like yours, and you may be the only one who can reach someone
else through telling your experience.
So don't be intimidated.
A story is just that, a true account of your own experience, and no one
can disagree with your experience.
When we tell what Jesus has done in our lives, we are being obedient to his
command to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
It's not about theology, and it's not about how interesting or special you are.
It's all about Jesus.
So when you're ready to tell how Jesus has impacted your life, you can let Jesse
know at his ministry website, jesseduke.
net.
There you can download guidelines that will make it easy to
prepare to tell your story.
Thank you for listening today and Shalom.