1 00:00:05,434 --> 00:00:07,534 Good morning grid connections listeners. 2 00:00:07,534 --> 00:00:09,594 Welcome to the fourth season of grid connections. 3 00:00:09,594 --> 00:00:13,834 And today we have Steve Birkett the founder of plug and play EV returning 4 00:00:13,834 --> 00:00:17,094 along with Walter Schulze joining us for the first time. 5 00:00:17,094 --> 00:00:21,214 Walter is the host of the network architect channel where he hosts the EV 6 00:00:21,214 --> 00:00:22,634 driver series. 7 00:00:22,634 --> 00:00:26,514 He shares timely updates on EV charging station providers and new locations that 8 00:00:26,514 --> 00:00:28,354 are adding across the country. 9 00:00:28,354 --> 00:00:32,534 Together we'll all delve into some of the latest perceptions around EV sales 10 00:00:32,534 --> 00:00:33,370 numbers. 11 00:00:33,370 --> 00:00:37,750 and explore maybe it's not all doom and gloom as the headlines would want you to 12 00:00:37,750 --> 00:00:38,430 believe. 13 00:00:38,430 --> 00:00:42,510 Then explore the challenges dealerships face in selling electric vehicles and 14 00:00:42,510 --> 00:00:46,990 examine the ongoing rollout of EV charging infrastructure across the country. 15 00:00:46,990 --> 00:00:50,110 Plus, we'll also discuss some of the tactics charge point operators use when 16 00:00:50,110 --> 00:00:54,750 discussing an EV fast charging location to meet various use cases. 17 00:00:54,750 --> 00:00:58,130 Being based in a more rural part of the West Coast, I really appreciate Stephen 18 00:00:58,130 --> 00:01:01,430 Walter for sharing their own recent experiences with driving their electric 19 00:01:01,430 --> 00:01:03,098 vehicles on the East Coast. 20 00:01:03,098 --> 00:01:06,118 and some of the road trips into the Midwest they've taken. 21 00:01:06,118 --> 00:01:10,298 It's always fascinating to hear how the EV landscape varies across different regions. 22 00:01:10,298 --> 00:01:14,138 It seems like out of the three of us, I've had the most issues lately, but we all 23 00:01:14,138 --> 00:01:18,458 agree that overall it continues to be an overly positive and improving experience 24 00:01:18,458 --> 00:01:19,638 for all of us. 25 00:01:19,638 --> 00:01:23,318 As a reminder, if you enjoy this episode, please share it with at least one friend 26 00:01:23,318 --> 00:01:26,018 or colleague who would find it interesting as well. 27 00:01:26,018 --> 00:01:29,402 Don't forget to leave a positive review on our podcast page. 28 00:01:29,402 --> 00:01:33,622 Your support helps us reach more listeners and continue bringing you great content. 29 00:01:33,622 --> 00:01:35,654 With that, enjoy. 30 00:01:35,912 --> 00:01:37,829 Walter, do you want to kick it off? 31 00:01:40,497 --> 00:01:45,237 Certainly my name is Walter Schulze, the owner and operator of the Network 32 00:01:45,237 --> 00:01:48,897 Architect Channel Studios, which is basically just my home office, really 33 00:01:48,897 --> 00:01:49,817 nothing much to it. 34 00:01:49,817 --> 00:01:55,957 I'm a technologist by profession for multiple decades and have become an EV 35 00:01:55,957 --> 00:02:00,677 enthusiast over the past several years and have been pursuing YouTube content 36 00:02:00,677 --> 00:02:07,957 creation probably for 18 months or so and find a way of... 37 00:02:08,593 --> 00:02:12,533 Pursuing an outlet for my passion for EVs is a lot of fun to engage with the social 38 00:02:12,533 --> 00:02:13,714 media community out there. 39 00:02:13,714 --> 00:02:14,994 I'm Steve Birkett. 40 00:02:14,994 --> 00:02:17,434 I'm a plug and play EV on YouTube. 41 00:02:17,434 --> 00:02:20,794 I've been doing it since around 2018, 2019. 42 00:02:20,794 --> 00:02:25,534 Years seemed to fly by, but started off in a bolt EV back then and it was much 43 00:02:25,534 --> 00:02:27,974 different landscape than it is now. 44 00:02:28,194 --> 00:02:31,354 Started thinking we've talked about it chase a little bit on the previous 45 00:02:31,354 --> 00:02:35,494 episode, just covering some of the content, cold weather charging, the very 46 00:02:35,494 --> 00:02:39,394 early stages of DC fast charging and kind of grew from there. 47 00:02:39,394 --> 00:02:44,168 So eventually hooked up with a guy called Eric Way out on the West Coast in 48 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:50,160 who's even older OG Bolt owner than myself and Walter joined us as well for what we 49 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,460 now have as a fortnightly podcast on EV charging and electric vehicle 50 00:02:54,460 --> 00:02:56,800 infrastructure called Coast to Coast EVs. 51 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,020 So that's about where we are today. 52 00:02:59,535 --> 00:02:59,735 Yeah. 53 00:02:59,735 --> 00:03:01,695 I just want to say thank you both for being on. 54 00:03:01,695 --> 00:03:05,095 I know Eric couldn't make it today, but we're helping to have him on a future 55 00:03:05,095 --> 00:03:06,135 episode as well. 56 00:03:06,135 --> 00:03:10,275 And definitely recommend anyone who loves our content on grid connections. 57 00:03:10,275 --> 00:03:14,655 I think, the show that you guys do perfectly aligns with kind of a lot of the 58 00:03:14,655 --> 00:03:18,455 similar topics and really appreciate just kind of getting some of the context and 59 00:03:18,455 --> 00:03:22,635 some of the, definitely, I don't want to say microcosms, but definitely some of the 60 00:03:22,635 --> 00:03:25,185 other areas that you guys really do focus on that. 61 00:03:25,185 --> 00:03:26,735 personally, I just don't think get enough attention. 62 00:03:26,735 --> 00:03:29,111 So I've always been a big fan of the show. 63 00:03:29,767 --> 00:03:35,047 but with that, I know one of the things that we kind of wanted to probably kick it 64 00:03:35,047 --> 00:03:39,367 off with is just, I think there's, it's really been the theme probably for the 65 00:03:39,367 --> 00:03:44,787 last six months, maybe even more, news around kind of a pullback in the EV space 66 00:03:44,787 --> 00:03:46,027 and EV charging. 67 00:03:46,027 --> 00:03:50,747 And I think, some of that's finally starting to change where people are 68 00:03:50,747 --> 00:03:55,759 realizing that it's more media headlines and hype than reality. 69 00:03:55,759 --> 00:03:59,119 Maybe if anything short -term struggles for a few players in the space, but 70 00:03:59,119 --> 00:04:00,859 everything is still kind of going in the right direction. 71 00:04:00,859 --> 00:04:05,759 So with that, I would kind of just love to kind of kick that off and just get your 72 00:04:05,759 --> 00:04:11,579 own thoughts about any areas that either of you are seeing, maybe, maybe some 73 00:04:11,579 --> 00:04:15,579 slowdown, but the areas that you still remain optimistic for growth and electric 74 00:04:15,579 --> 00:04:17,309 vehicles in the space overall. 75 00:04:19,154 --> 00:04:22,734 Nobody really told folks in my area that there was a slowdown because I see more 76 00:04:22,734 --> 00:04:25,934 and more diverse range of EVs every day. 77 00:04:25,934 --> 00:04:28,534 Even Walter drives a Cadillac Lyric, as I'm sure I'll get onto. 78 00:04:28,534 --> 00:04:30,154 I'm seeing a lot more of those nowadays. 79 00:04:30,154 --> 00:04:32,994 So there's just the diversity locally. 80 00:04:32,994 --> 00:04:35,634 I'm just here north of Boston in Massachusetts. 81 00:04:35,634 --> 00:04:41,114 So obviously have that, you know, coastal, slightly friendly EV state perhaps than 82 00:04:41,114 --> 00:04:44,354 some of the others where people will focus the negativity. 83 00:04:44,354 --> 00:04:48,018 But I think if you look at the numbers and... 84 00:04:48,018 --> 00:04:51,878 the general trends, although you can always pick out some individual month to 85 00:04:51,878 --> 00:04:56,458 month or year to year stats that kind of show an issue, not least, you know, Tesla 86 00:04:56,458 --> 00:05:00,278 at the moment at the start of the year in Q1 is the one that's kind of down a little 87 00:05:00,278 --> 00:05:05,078 bit, but then you look to your Ford and Ikea, even GM kind of potentially coming 88 00:05:05,078 --> 00:05:06,698 up with some of their new models. 89 00:05:06,698 --> 00:05:11,738 It really, it starts to put the light to that kind of EV sales are a lot of people 90 00:05:11,738 --> 00:05:15,478 try to make out dropping, but really it's kind of a slowdown in growth, which is 91 00:05:15,478 --> 00:05:18,265 kind of natural when you consider you're going from that early adopter 92 00:05:18,265 --> 00:05:23,565 where nobody had an EV to that kind of slightly more mature market where the 93 00:05:23,565 --> 00:05:27,865 growth is inevitably going to slow but it isn't cratering, it's not stopping, this 94 00:05:27,865 --> 00:05:32,805 is just kind of another little blip on the way to wider EV adoption. 95 00:05:34,831 --> 00:05:36,471 Yeah, I think that sums it up pretty well. 96 00:05:36,471 --> 00:05:39,991 I don't know if there was anything else Walter you wanted to add to that or any 97 00:05:39,991 --> 00:05:41,893 other things that maybe you've seen. 98 00:05:44,945 --> 00:05:50,405 My personal opinion is we have the economics. 99 00:05:50,737 --> 00:05:56,617 On our side, fleet owners are adopting electric vehicles not because they're 100 00:05:56,617 --> 00:06:01,417 trying to save the planet, they're trying to improve their balance sheets. 101 00:06:01,657 --> 00:06:09,397 And when economics makes sense, there's the phrase, no army can withstand the 102 00:06:09,397 --> 00:06:11,637 force of an idea whose time has come. 103 00:06:11,637 --> 00:06:15,957 And I think it's becoming clearer and clearer that the economics around EVs just 104 00:06:15,957 --> 00:06:20,157 makes sense for fleet owners and also household budgets. 105 00:06:20,157 --> 00:06:20,783 And when 106 00:06:20,783 --> 00:06:27,163 that's the case when you can improve the quality of life and also decrease the 107 00:06:27,163 --> 00:06:32,523 expenditures for cost for transportation in the same swoop. 108 00:06:32,523 --> 00:06:37,783 It's very difficult to say that there's going to be a decrease in sales. 109 00:06:37,783 --> 00:06:44,443 In fact, I don't know anyone who has a forecast for EV sales that is predicting a 110 00:06:44,443 --> 00:06:45,983 downturn. 111 00:06:46,033 --> 00:06:51,313 There's two notable ones, Bloomberg and Coxville Automotive just in the past, I 112 00:06:51,313 --> 00:06:55,793 think, month have both forecasted increased growth for EVs. 113 00:06:55,793 --> 00:07:00,333 And they're either one of those are environmentally centric outlets. 114 00:07:00,333 --> 00:07:02,333 They're very pragmatic. 115 00:07:02,333 --> 00:07:06,893 Just today I was watching the Autoline Daily and there was a report about Toyota, 116 00:07:06,893 --> 00:07:09,933 which makes arguably the worst EV in the market. 117 00:07:09,933 --> 00:07:14,233 And there's some question if they're trying to torpedo their own. 118 00:07:14,801 --> 00:07:21,121 initiatives or whatever but the BZ -4X, the RZ Lexus and the Subaru Soltera 119 00:07:21,121 --> 00:07:28,221 combined year -to -date are 17 ,000 units and for the producer of perhaps the worst 120 00:07:28,221 --> 00:07:32,661 EV those are pretty solid numbers you know back five years ago 17 ,000 units year -to 121 00:07:32,661 --> 00:07:36,561 -date to June 1st would have been something to celebrate and now these are 122 00:07:36,561 --> 00:07:38,841 just kind of like meh numbers. 123 00:07:38,961 --> 00:07:44,101 So I think the demand is there and as I said fleet owners are proceeding as if 124 00:07:44,101 --> 00:07:45,255 this whole 125 00:07:45,467 --> 00:07:49,447 of lack of ED demand doesn't exist. 126 00:07:49,447 --> 00:07:56,527 Ride share owner operators are very heavy into EVs and so I think when the economics 127 00:07:56,527 --> 00:07:59,106 make sense there's really no stopping it. 128 00:07:59,823 --> 00:08:02,683 Yeah, I think you just brought up a lot of great points on that one kind of 129 00:08:02,683 --> 00:08:04,343 conversation right there, Walter. 130 00:08:04,903 --> 00:08:09,063 w what's really fascinating is you, you quoted, not just Bloomberg, but also Cox 131 00:08:09,063 --> 00:08:09,863 automotive. 132 00:08:09,863 --> 00:08:13,143 And, I actually used to do some work with auto line daily. 133 00:08:13,143 --> 00:08:18,743 And one of the things we used to talk with are some of the people there at, both Cox 134 00:08:18,743 --> 00:08:19,743 and, Bloomberg. 135 00:08:19,743 --> 00:08:24,643 And what was so funny was you just wind the clock back maybe two or let alone like 136 00:08:24,643 --> 00:08:25,743 three years ago. 137 00:08:25,743 --> 00:08:32,223 And the numbers that they had for EV growth was like super, I guess you could 138 00:08:32,223 --> 00:08:33,963 just say pessimistic. 139 00:08:33,983 --> 00:08:39,443 And it seems like every quarter, a lot of these groups, even with maybe they've 140 00:08:39,443 --> 00:08:41,882 changed it a little bit, but it's like every year. 141 00:08:41,882 --> 00:08:44,483 And then you look at it quarterly, that number that they're predicting the future 142 00:08:44,483 --> 00:08:46,423 growth to be has actually increased. 143 00:08:46,423 --> 00:08:50,245 It's like, you go back a few years, like, we see this maybe being 20%. 144 00:08:50,287 --> 00:08:53,387 And now you go like two years back and like, well, maybe we see it being 30%. 145 00:08:53,387 --> 00:08:56,007 Like, well, yeah, probably by 2030, it's going to be 40%. 146 00:08:56,007 --> 00:09:02,947 And so there's kind of this, bizarre, hindsight is 2020 obviously, but it is 147 00:09:02,947 --> 00:09:07,247 just really interesting to show that, a lot of the people that I think have kind 148 00:09:07,247 --> 00:09:10,907 of pushed back on the narrative and said that there isn't a need, even the more 149 00:09:10,907 --> 00:09:16,807 conservative outlier, can outlets out there or have been slowly revamping their 150 00:09:16,807 --> 00:09:19,595 long -term numbers in a positive direction. 151 00:09:19,599 --> 00:09:23,919 And even though sometimes we'll be seeing the headlines from them, like, does this 152 00:09:23,919 --> 00:09:27,229 quarter sales mean that this trend is reversing? 153 00:09:27,229 --> 00:09:31,759 It really is all around the idea that the short -term noise doesn't really align 154 00:09:31,759 --> 00:09:36,539 with what we're seeing as kind of, excuse me, as a long -term signal, in the space 155 00:09:36,539 --> 00:09:40,699 between buyers and, interest in electric vehicles. 156 00:09:40,699 --> 00:09:42,529 You're going to add something Walter. 157 00:09:42,529 --> 00:09:49,109 a single prediction out there indicating a decrease in EV growth that I know of. 158 00:09:49,109 --> 00:09:52,029 There might be one out there, but I have not seen it. 159 00:09:52,029 --> 00:10:01,529 And I try to be objective in the outlets that I review, but it's going to increase. 160 00:10:01,529 --> 00:10:03,289 The only question is at what measure. 161 00:10:03,289 --> 00:10:04,969 And that's really the art. 162 00:10:05,055 --> 00:10:08,515 No, and I think that's a great clarifying point because for a lot of them, I think 163 00:10:08,515 --> 00:10:10,455 what we have seen is. 164 00:10:10,455 --> 00:10:15,355 And this is I've seen misreported where maybe some of these outlets have revised 165 00:10:15,355 --> 00:10:18,145 what they think their growth number is going to be a year over year. 166 00:10:18,145 --> 00:10:23,515 So maybe they were saying it was going to be 45 % and then they say 40 % and it's 167 00:10:23,515 --> 00:10:28,115 still growth, but then it gets misreported as, it looks like you've, these are losing 168 00:10:28,115 --> 00:10:29,375 momentum and stuff like that. 169 00:10:29,375 --> 00:10:33,547 And even then I've already seen between, like January. 170 00:10:33,839 --> 00:10:34,489 a similar thing. 171 00:10:34,489 --> 00:10:38,039 I I'm trying to remember the outlet, but they said, it's going to go down to 30%. 172 00:10:38,039 --> 00:10:41,579 And they had been, previously saying it was going to be 40 to 50 % growth. 173 00:10:41,579 --> 00:10:43,519 And now they're back up to like 40%. 174 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:51,399 And I think, there's just so much, just these kind of short -term blips that keep 175 00:10:51,399 --> 00:10:56,679 popping up the news, whether it's some of the, I guess I could say fear -mongering, 176 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:01,239 winter charging and the experience that we're seeing, even in Chicago and a couple 177 00:11:01,239 --> 00:11:02,703 areas this past winter. 178 00:11:02,703 --> 00:11:04,443 And that just kind of gets all the noise. 179 00:11:04,443 --> 00:11:09,123 And then people try to put that in these models based on short -term data and 180 00:11:09,123 --> 00:11:10,633 really start throwing off these numbers. 181 00:11:10,633 --> 00:11:14,443 But I completely agree with you, Walter, when you start looking at it longer term 182 00:11:14,443 --> 00:11:19,163 and actually going to usually the actual new source and people doing these reports, 183 00:11:19,483 --> 00:11:23,983 the numbers are pretty convincing that what has started is just going to 184 00:11:23,983 --> 00:11:24,955 continue. 185 00:11:25,202 --> 00:11:29,261 Worth remembering as well that these are numbers that are without some of the major 186 00:11:29,261 --> 00:11:29,982 players, right? 187 00:11:29,982 --> 00:11:34,262 So, you know, Walter mentioned Toyota in their kind of lackluster approach to EVs. 188 00:11:34,262 --> 00:11:37,862 You've got, you know, GM, which has only really been in with the Bolt EV, which 189 00:11:37,862 --> 00:11:41,402 obviously left, but, you know, is coming back with a bunch of others that are at 190 00:11:41,402 --> 00:11:43,302 that affordable stage of the market. 191 00:11:43,302 --> 00:11:45,532 You've got Honda coming in with the Prologue. 192 00:11:45,532 --> 00:11:50,722 A lot of Stellantis brands, you know, you could list off another 10, 5, 10 193 00:11:50,722 --> 00:11:52,922 manufacturers that haven't really been in the game yet. 194 00:11:52,922 --> 00:11:55,378 So even just by introducing them and adding... 195 00:11:55,378 --> 00:11:57,578 10, 20, 30 ,000. 196 00:11:57,650 --> 00:12:02,950 units to the the cells then you start to rack up even if we just kind of sell the 197 00:12:02,950 --> 00:12:07,250 same number of the previous the Tesla or even a few a few less then you start to 198 00:12:07,250 --> 00:12:10,250 get all these other manufacturers piling in and the numbers are just going to go up 199 00:12:10,250 --> 00:12:14,350 and up by virtue of loyalists people who treat the vehicle like an appliance 200 00:12:14,350 --> 00:12:18,750 because it's a to be soccer run groceries that kind of thing they just need 201 00:12:18,750 --> 00:12:23,170 something to get from you know one place to another and those models do the job for 202 00:12:23,170 --> 00:12:27,696 them so while we as EV purists might say peak charging is awful takes an 203 00:12:27,696 --> 00:12:32,116 hour to go from zero to 50%, whatever it is. 204 00:12:32,116 --> 00:12:32,996 They don't care. 205 00:12:32,996 --> 00:12:34,506 They're probably not gonna fast charge it. 206 00:12:34,506 --> 00:12:38,076 It's for the grocery run, it's for local duty, all these kinds of things that we 207 00:12:38,076 --> 00:12:41,676 take for daily use just for granted. 208 00:12:41,716 --> 00:12:42,936 And EV does the job. 209 00:12:42,936 --> 00:12:48,216 So there's a big, big soft middle there to just pile into and sell vehicles to people 210 00:12:48,216 --> 00:12:50,796 who aren't on one end or the other of the spectrum. 211 00:12:50,796 --> 00:12:53,970 They're just there waiting for it to be the right price. 212 00:12:53,970 --> 00:12:58,650 the right range, whatever it takes for their use case, they're not pro or anti 213 00:12:58,650 --> 00:13:02,222 -EV, they just need it to be the right vehicle or the right manufacturer. 214 00:13:02,671 --> 00:13:03,971 I think that's a great point too. 215 00:13:03,971 --> 00:13:06,351 And one of the things that I don't think has been fully appreciated. 216 00:13:06,351 --> 00:13:10,191 I think a lot of the conversation does kind of go around the early adopter 217 00:13:10,191 --> 00:13:14,931 mentality, but with exactly what you're saying, not only just more options from 218 00:13:14,931 --> 00:13:18,571 different brands, but more options at more price points. 219 00:13:18,571 --> 00:13:21,811 There's a lot of families that I've probably been interested or just haven't 220 00:13:21,811 --> 00:13:27,111 had EVs on their radar because it just hasn't been in their price point. 221 00:13:27,691 --> 00:13:30,799 But I think everyone thinks about the early adopter. 222 00:13:30,799 --> 00:13:35,319 And with so many people, really what is a big starting point is replacing the second 223 00:13:35,319 --> 00:13:36,379 car they have. 224 00:13:36,379 --> 00:13:41,439 If they can replace that second car with an around town EV and they start driving 225 00:13:41,439 --> 00:13:44,999 that, they kind of start to realize a lot of the perks and realize how useful that 226 00:13:44,999 --> 00:13:47,159 that can be for their primary car. 227 00:13:47,159 --> 00:13:50,259 And so maybe when they go to replace that next time, and then that's where you kind 228 00:13:50,259 --> 00:13:52,319 of see that snowball effect in the growth. 229 00:13:52,319 --> 00:13:54,119 So, I completely agree with you. 230 00:13:54,119 --> 00:13:58,779 I think having more people come to the space with more EVs is really just going 231 00:13:58,779 --> 00:14:00,799 to accelerate what we're already seeing. 232 00:14:00,879 --> 00:14:06,279 And, the biggest thing has always just been like, once one person gets one on the 233 00:14:06,279 --> 00:14:10,059 block, then other people start telling, okay, if Joe can do it, then maybe these 234 00:14:10,059 --> 00:14:11,119 things are practical. 235 00:14:11,119 --> 00:14:14,819 And once again, it's just like, you have to have that daily exposure. 236 00:14:14,819 --> 00:14:19,399 And I would kind of be curious for both of you guys, what do you think, is there a 237 00:14:19,399 --> 00:14:24,999 way that traditional auto OEMs could be doing a better job of getting that 238 00:14:24,999 --> 00:14:25,379 exposure? 239 00:14:25,379 --> 00:14:28,879 Because I really do think it is that, that it, there is that element of just kind of, 240 00:14:28,879 --> 00:14:30,191 as they say, getting, 241 00:14:30,191 --> 00:14:36,331 butts and seats and doing test drives and maybe not even a test drive, but almost a 242 00:14:37,071 --> 00:14:40,471 extended test drive where you have it for a few days to a week. 243 00:14:40,471 --> 00:14:45,851 Because I will say I did have a, I don't want to name any names, but I had a very 244 00:14:45,851 --> 00:14:49,791 subpar experience from a traditional OEM dealership recently. 245 00:14:49,791 --> 00:14:55,691 The salespeople were great, but the interest, clearly their own personal 246 00:14:55,691 --> 00:14:58,799 interest in EVs, let alone knowledge base of it. 247 00:14:58,799 --> 00:15:04,579 just made it clear that they wanted to sell the other version that wasn't an EV. 248 00:15:04,579 --> 00:15:09,859 And I'm kind of curious if there's been any exposure or experiences you guys have 249 00:15:09,859 --> 00:15:13,839 had that kind of helped maybe counteract that or things that you think auto OEM 250 00:15:13,839 --> 00:15:18,179 should be doing more to change that perception buying experience for the 251 00:15:18,179 --> 00:15:19,327 average consumer. 252 00:15:21,938 --> 00:15:27,638 I think the experience in general is twofold. 253 00:15:27,638 --> 00:15:32,238 It obviously requires the salesperson and the dealership to have some interest in 254 00:15:32,238 --> 00:15:33,298 selling them in the first place. 255 00:15:33,298 --> 00:15:36,778 I mean, they may get an allocation, but if they're not charged, they're sitting 256 00:15:36,778 --> 00:15:41,438 around the back of the lot, nobody knows how to get in the vehicle and show you the 257 00:15:41,438 --> 00:15:46,698 ins and outs of things like regenerative braking, let you know the accelerator is 258 00:15:46,698 --> 00:15:48,498 going to push you forward pretty quickly. 259 00:15:48,498 --> 00:15:51,778 That kind of the ins and outs of electric vehicles, 260 00:15:51,844 --> 00:15:56,884 that need to be something that they start to at least put on the table rather than 261 00:15:56,884 --> 00:15:59,864 immediately starting with, you know, the charging issues, the things that you can't 262 00:15:59,864 --> 00:16:00,394 do with it. 263 00:16:00,394 --> 00:16:04,584 So the dealership attitude is certainly something right from the off. 264 00:16:04,784 --> 00:16:09,444 And then I think there's some of the more forward thinking OEMs are starting to 265 00:16:09,444 --> 00:16:13,864 experiment with rentals, you know, short term rentals at certain dealership or 266 00:16:13,864 --> 00:16:18,104 shorter leases, low mileage leases for exactly that kind of user that you're 267 00:16:18,104 --> 00:16:21,284 talking about, the one with the second car who maybe doesn't need to worry about it 268 00:16:21,284 --> 00:16:22,080 for the long. 269 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:23,420 that kind of thing. 270 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,210 So it's a way of getting, you know, as we always say, these ride and drive events, 271 00:16:27,210 --> 00:16:32,440 bumps and seeds, get them experiencing it in a very low risk, low kind of commitment 272 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:33,180 way. 273 00:16:33,180 --> 00:16:34,322 So the, 274 00:16:34,322 --> 00:16:39,602 They can get into the feeling of an EV, how easy it is potentially to plug in at 275 00:16:39,602 --> 00:16:45,842 home, to do their weekly mileage with an electric drivetrain, but still have the 276 00:16:45,842 --> 00:16:48,622 knowledge that they can get out of the lease if they want to. 277 00:16:48,622 --> 00:16:51,962 They just need to get over that hump initially of, will it work for me, as you 278 00:16:51,962 --> 00:16:56,562 say, and if you can start to give them options that are very short, low mileage, 279 00:16:56,562 --> 00:16:59,672 not too high cost, and affordable models that suit their needs. 280 00:16:59,672 --> 00:17:02,082 I think you're already halfway there. 281 00:17:06,033 --> 00:17:12,053 Yeah, and I would like to add the advantage that we're facing in 2024 for 282 00:17:12,053 --> 00:17:12,743 what you're describing. 283 00:17:12,743 --> 00:17:16,393 And I'm kind of curious, Chase, where do you, like, where did you have that 284 00:17:16,393 --> 00:17:16,973 experience? 285 00:17:16,973 --> 00:17:18,713 What part of the country? 286 00:17:18,735 --> 00:17:22,655 West a small city along I5 on the west coast. 287 00:17:22,655 --> 00:17:24,225 I'll leave it at that. 288 00:17:24,225 --> 00:17:24,869 Yeah 289 00:17:24,869 --> 00:17:25,139 strange. 290 00:17:25,139 --> 00:17:26,809 You would have thought that you'd be the option would have been high enough there 291 00:17:26,809 --> 00:17:29,959 that the interest would have been different. 292 00:17:29,959 --> 00:17:32,729 I just perceived it differently out there. 293 00:17:32,831 --> 00:17:38,911 it is definitely a smaller, very beautiful, more rural city, but I think it 294 00:17:38,911 --> 00:17:44,791 was, I don't want to say eye opening or surprising, but it was really interesting 295 00:17:44,791 --> 00:17:51,621 to hear and see the, the actual sales experience and positioning of the EV. 296 00:17:52,111 --> 00:17:54,851 and I mean, they first just came out like, well, why would you get it? 297 00:17:54,851 --> 00:17:55,931 Can't tell anything. 298 00:17:55,931 --> 00:18:00,655 And, I, one, I didn't really try to push back. 299 00:18:00,655 --> 00:18:03,395 I just wanted to see what they kind of came at me with and what, what they 300 00:18:03,395 --> 00:18:04,555 started saying. 301 00:18:05,145 --> 00:18:08,515 and it just was really interesting where they started with. 302 00:18:08,515 --> 00:18:11,855 And like when I even started to push back, they're just like, why don't you just get 303 00:18:11,855 --> 00:18:12,635 the gas version? 304 00:18:12,635 --> 00:18:14,935 And it, I don't know. 305 00:18:14,935 --> 00:18:20,855 I'm, still cautiously optimistic, but I do think that that is a big challenge. 306 00:18:21,575 --> 00:18:26,615 even if you're still seeing that from dealerships, I don't know if this, I know 307 00:18:26,615 --> 00:18:29,135 some of these, OEMs are. 308 00:18:29,135 --> 00:18:34,515 trying to make certain dealerships more EV focused or EV partners, if you will, with 309 00:18:34,515 --> 00:18:35,915 their brand than others. 310 00:18:35,915 --> 00:18:42,095 And I'm not sure if this one was one, probably not for multiple reasons, but 311 00:18:42,095 --> 00:18:46,275 even then I would say the sales experience compared to some of the other dealerships 312 00:18:46,275 --> 00:18:49,795 I experienced as I've had in the past was overall positive. 313 00:18:49,795 --> 00:18:51,085 The person was nice. 314 00:18:51,085 --> 00:18:57,115 They weren't too pushy, but it was just clear that they had no interest in the EV 315 00:18:57,115 --> 00:18:58,335 side of stuff. 316 00:18:58,383 --> 00:19:03,443 And it was unfortunate to kind of be reminded of this. 317 00:19:03,883 --> 00:19:05,983 and it's kind of the first time I'd seen this in a while. 318 00:19:06,213 --> 00:19:12,823 once again, maybe it is the outlier, but, it just was one of those things that I 319 00:19:12,823 --> 00:19:14,442 think still a pretty big challenge. 320 00:19:14,442 --> 00:19:19,523 And if we're seeing this on the West coast and I think it's going to be just 321 00:19:19,523 --> 00:19:24,943 something nationally that, and I think obviously, from a country standpoint, 322 00:19:24,943 --> 00:19:25,967 we're probably. 323 00:19:25,967 --> 00:19:29,387 looking at, like you look at Europe and abroad, I don't think it's nearly as big 324 00:19:29,387 --> 00:19:29,767 an issue. 325 00:19:29,767 --> 00:19:34,247 And I think some of that may be the truck culture and other things, but, it was just 326 00:19:34,247 --> 00:19:38,987 really fascinating to me that they just had no interest in it pretty quickly or 327 00:19:38,987 --> 00:19:40,727 like, yeah, it's a cool toy. 328 00:19:41,107 --> 00:19:44,647 and they were trying to reposition the conversation pretty quickly to a different 329 00:19:44,647 --> 00:19:45,571 product. 330 00:19:45,649 --> 00:19:46,849 That is interesting. 331 00:19:46,849 --> 00:19:50,909 I went on a road trip into coal country, which is Eastern Kentucky and West 332 00:19:50,909 --> 00:19:51,769 Virginia. 333 00:19:51,769 --> 00:19:55,589 And I did stop at a dealership because it's one of the few places that had a 334 00:19:55,589 --> 00:19:56,899 level two charger anywhere. 335 00:19:56,899 --> 00:19:58,419 There's like no chargers whatsoever. 336 00:19:58,419 --> 00:20:00,269 And so I tried to use it, but it was broken. 337 00:20:00,269 --> 00:20:04,329 I went in and I was talking to them and it was obvious there was a palatable light, 338 00:20:04,329 --> 00:20:07,449 you know, please take your EV and go somewhere else mentality. 339 00:20:07,449 --> 00:20:10,429 But that's coal country, which is a little bit different. 340 00:20:10,429 --> 00:20:12,049 I would have thought in the West Coast. 341 00:20:12,049 --> 00:20:15,603 But in 2024, one thing we have going for us is as 342 00:20:15,603 --> 00:20:20,343 A salesperson is walking a floor knowing they've got the $7 ,500 tax credit in 343 00:20:20,343 --> 00:20:24,293 their pocket where they could show someone a sticker price, let them sit in the car, 344 00:20:24,293 --> 00:20:30,023 and then hit them with a $7 ,500 discount is a pretty powerful sales tool in the 345 00:20:30,023 --> 00:20:30,543 tool chest. 346 00:20:30,543 --> 00:20:34,123 And I would think, you know, just for pure sick. 347 00:20:34,419 --> 00:20:35,519 I don't think it is. 348 00:20:35,519 --> 00:20:38,199 I think they look at it as, or at least this is my experience. 349 00:20:38,199 --> 00:20:40,569 And I've kind of wondered if this would be the case. 350 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:46,299 they look at it as just one more hurdle to try and kind of have the conversation 351 00:20:46,299 --> 00:20:49,019 like, okay, now I have to talk to about charging now have to talk about even 352 00:20:49,019 --> 00:20:52,149 incentives if they qualify or if they do leasing or all this stuff. 353 00:20:52,149 --> 00:20:56,179 To me, it just became clear, like, this is just making the sales process more 354 00:20:56,179 --> 00:20:57,910 complicated, good or bad. 355 00:20:57,910 --> 00:20:59,483 you're that way. 356 00:20:59,483 --> 00:21:01,023 totally agree with what you're saying, Walter. 357 00:21:01,023 --> 00:21:06,463 It should be looked at as actually, an advantage, but it was just really 358 00:21:06,463 --> 00:21:07,661 interesting experience. 359 00:21:07,661 --> 00:21:09,021 and I was looking at the sticker. 360 00:21:09,021 --> 00:21:11,081 I'm like, all right, here's how the script is going to go. 361 00:21:11,081 --> 00:21:13,541 They'll sit down, they'll look at the sticker, they'll sit down and then I'll 362 00:21:13,541 --> 00:21:16,501 say, well, you get $70 ,000 and then go to paperwork. 363 00:21:16,501 --> 00:21:21,181 It'd be something that you have in the EV that you don't have in the other cars. 364 00:21:22,226 --> 00:21:26,326 I think it's worth contrasting as well with, you know, there is not a small 365 00:21:26,326 --> 00:21:31,606 gorilla in the room with Tesla's method of delivery and looking at direct sales. 366 00:21:31,606 --> 00:21:33,486 Obviously that's limited in some places. 367 00:21:33,486 --> 00:21:37,366 They are headquartered in Texas, but can't even sell that directly, you know, but 368 00:21:37,366 --> 00:21:43,936 there are more and more of these coming up with your Lucid, Rivian, Polestar even. 369 00:21:43,936 --> 00:21:48,226 If you start to go to some of these spaces, I think you feel it's a different 370 00:21:48,226 --> 00:21:52,680 environment in which to consider an electric vehicle. 371 00:21:52,812 --> 00:21:57,952 to some extent with the dealerships you're at the mercy of exactly what you say 372 00:21:57,952 --> 00:22:02,632 Chase, it's the individual in charge or the salesperson who's managing the team 373 00:22:02,632 --> 00:22:04,062 interested in electric vehicles. 374 00:22:04,062 --> 00:22:06,442 If they are, you get some very, very good dealerships. 375 00:22:06,442 --> 00:22:10,212 There are some great places who have really tried to make initiatives with 376 00:22:10,212 --> 00:22:16,092 charging parks, cafes were next to the charges that they serve during the day, EV 377 00:22:16,092 --> 00:22:19,632 own the events, a lot of different initiatives that just fall under the 378 00:22:19,632 --> 00:22:21,592 bucket of marketing the vehicles. 379 00:22:21,892 --> 00:22:22,036 But if you're 380 00:22:22,036 --> 00:22:26,556 If you find a dealership that is of the mindset they're being forced to sell these 381 00:22:26,556 --> 00:22:30,055 things, I think that's where it switches into exactly what you're talking about. 382 00:22:30,055 --> 00:22:33,536 The incentive is just another piece of paperwork to do. 383 00:22:33,536 --> 00:22:36,516 They have to explain a different form of fuelling. 384 00:22:36,516 --> 00:22:38,436 It's more work than it's worth. 385 00:22:38,436 --> 00:22:42,736 But they've got the sword of Damocles hanging over them that is, if that starts 386 00:22:42,736 --> 00:22:48,576 to really get close, then they have direct sales, EVO only makers, and a lot of other 387 00:22:48,576 --> 00:22:52,348 competitive threats that it would be better to start at least 388 00:22:52,348 --> 00:22:56,748 for and figure out how to sell these things now before it's critical time. 389 00:22:56,748 --> 00:23:01,708 Otherwise, further down the line, it's going to be a long, big hill to climb to 390 00:23:01,708 --> 00:23:04,608 get back to just even status quo. 391 00:23:04,719 --> 00:23:05,079 For sure. 392 00:23:05,079 --> 00:23:07,939 And there definitely are some other charging topics I want to talk to you guys 393 00:23:07,939 --> 00:23:11,619 about, but, just, it kind of reminded me of this recent experience. 394 00:23:11,619 --> 00:23:17,779 And, I, I was surprised by, I kind of figured it would come up, but I didn't 395 00:23:17,779 --> 00:23:19,779 expect it to come up so quickly. 396 00:23:19,779 --> 00:23:24,699 And, with multiple salespeople, they were just like, they were, they were all 397 00:23:24,699 --> 00:23:26,039 actually really nice. 398 00:23:26,619 --> 00:23:28,759 but they're just like, why would you waste your time with those things? 399 00:23:28,759 --> 00:23:29,679 Those are toys. 400 00:23:29,679 --> 00:23:32,953 Let's, and then they showed the other trucks and all this other. 401 00:23:33,583 --> 00:23:34,503 vehicles they have. 402 00:23:34,503 --> 00:23:37,543 And when I asked him about the discount, they're like, well, that one doesn't 403 00:23:37,543 --> 00:23:37,913 count. 404 00:23:37,913 --> 00:23:39,123 And this one does. 405 00:23:39,123 --> 00:23:44,123 And it's so hard to keep track of which one qualifies for what, which I kind of 406 00:23:44,123 --> 00:23:49,183 also get, but, isn't doing many favors and moving EVs. 407 00:23:49,183 --> 00:23:53,783 And the thing I wanted to ask you to see is cause you have the ionic five right 408 00:23:53,783 --> 00:23:54,783 now. 409 00:23:54,783 --> 00:23:59,903 You look at Hyundai and Kia, they are brands that were growing, but seem to have 410 00:23:59,903 --> 00:24:01,921 really taken a large. 411 00:24:01,967 --> 00:24:08,727 a spike in growth with their electric vehicle, approach in product and sales. 412 00:24:08,727 --> 00:24:12,607 And so I kind of am curious with your experience, was it much more, they were 413 00:24:12,607 --> 00:24:17,407 more open to it because they, you really weren't competing against another vehicle 414 00:24:17,407 --> 00:24:19,047 that they offer. 415 00:24:19,047 --> 00:24:22,267 Whereas I think in my experience, they're like, well, we got the diesel version, we 416 00:24:22,267 --> 00:24:25,747 got the gas version and that electric thing, who knows, whatever. 417 00:24:25,747 --> 00:24:30,607 And I feel like that almost was kind of causing some internal confusion and like, 418 00:24:30,607 --> 00:24:35,427 combativeness against the models versus maybe I just be a little real quickly here 419 00:24:35,427 --> 00:24:39,623 your experience of it was much more different or much different. 420 00:24:39,826 --> 00:24:43,426 It would have been perhaps interesting if I was shopping the Kona because that has a 421 00:24:43,426 --> 00:24:46,578 direct, you know, plug -in hybrid and a... 422 00:24:46,578 --> 00:24:49,718 pure gas version, but shopping the IONIQ 5. 423 00:24:49,718 --> 00:24:55,358 I think Hyundai corporately and Kia as well have put a big push behind them to 424 00:24:55,358 --> 00:24:58,678 let people, the dealerships know that they want to sell these and they've created 425 00:24:58,678 --> 00:25:01,198 products that are mostly unique. 426 00:25:01,198 --> 00:25:06,758 I haven't noticed any particularly positive dealership stories with Hyundai 427 00:25:06,758 --> 00:25:10,918 or Kia to be honest, more so with Hyundai on the ownership boards, but they 428 00:25:10,918 --> 00:25:15,518 generally seem to be the weakest link of the sales process, but they haven't also 429 00:25:15,518 --> 00:25:16,964 had very many horrors to 430 00:25:16,964 --> 00:25:21,024 than the initial markups and what you get with every EV pretty much when it's in 431 00:25:21,024 --> 00:25:22,344 limited supply. 432 00:25:22,344 --> 00:25:27,364 But I haven't seen the dealerships as either a big plus in trying to sell them 433 00:25:27,364 --> 00:25:30,957 or an impediment in trying to steer me away to anything else. 434 00:25:31,183 --> 00:25:31,693 Yeah. 435 00:25:31,693 --> 00:25:36,903 And Walter, I know, with your experience, was it mostly when you were, you kind of 436 00:25:36,903 --> 00:25:40,443 ordered it, reserved it online, and then essentially took delivery of it at the 437 00:25:40,443 --> 00:25:45,123 dealership or did you have more, engagement with taking delivery of your 438 00:25:45,123 --> 00:25:46,533 car at the dealership? 439 00:25:46,533 --> 00:25:48,053 of those, no. 440 00:25:48,053 --> 00:25:52,153 Really my wife and my household makes most of the purchasing decisions for large 441 00:25:52,153 --> 00:25:54,663 ticket items like that and she wanted a Tesla Model 3. 442 00:25:54,663 --> 00:25:56,053 She got herself one. 443 00:25:56,053 --> 00:26:00,673 I was driving it around for a while and slowly I started to be like, well what's 444 00:26:00,673 --> 00:26:02,253 this electric car thing like? 445 00:26:02,253 --> 00:26:05,963 You know, we had the charger installed in the garage and she was enjoying it. 446 00:26:05,963 --> 00:26:07,413 You know, it looked like a nice car. 447 00:26:07,413 --> 00:26:11,673 You know, you hear about Teslas, it's like a sexy new toy as you say. 448 00:26:11,673 --> 00:26:14,793 And ooh, I want to try, you know, put on my Ray -Bans and go cruise around in the 449 00:26:14,793 --> 00:26:15,813 Tesla. 450 00:26:16,099 --> 00:26:19,079 Slowly though, I started to realize this thing don't break down. 451 00:26:19,079 --> 00:26:23,379 It has no oil changes and it's more reliable. 452 00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:26,139 We got a nice tax break. 453 00:26:26,319 --> 00:26:30,299 This was 2019, I forgot what the tax code was back then, but we got a nice tax 454 00:26:30,299 --> 00:26:31,259 break. 455 00:26:31,899 --> 00:26:35,759 We had to change the tires once and fill it with windshield washer fluid, but that 456 00:26:35,759 --> 00:26:37,018 was about it. 457 00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:46,002 After that, the next car we added, we put in a Volvo XC40 Recharge, which is kind 458 00:26:46,002 --> 00:26:47,849 like a... 459 00:26:47,985 --> 00:26:52,465 crossover SUV, I think is a way of describing it, a little mid -size SUV. 460 00:26:52,665 --> 00:26:58,815 And so we had the Model 3 and the Volvo XC40 Recharge, as well as a Hyundai Ioniq, 461 00:26:58,815 --> 00:27:04,345 not an Ioniq 5, just the hybrid Ioniq, which was what my son was using prior to 462 00:27:04,345 --> 00:27:05,645 going to college. 463 00:27:05,665 --> 00:27:10,885 We sold that and we also got a Cadillac Lyric trading in the Tesla Model 3. 464 00:27:10,885 --> 00:27:12,625 The Model 3 is kind of a low car. 465 00:27:12,625 --> 00:27:15,485 I don't know if anyone's been in it and driven it as a daily driver. 466 00:27:15,485 --> 00:27:16,375 It's kind of a low car. 467 00:27:16,375 --> 00:27:17,891 Me and my wife are both in our 50s. 468 00:27:17,891 --> 00:27:22,371 So we're like, eh, so when you sit in a Cadillac, it's a super comfortable cream 469 00:27:22,371 --> 00:27:22,771 puff. 470 00:27:22,771 --> 00:27:29,631 So we traded in three for a Lyric and got a, again, a big tax discount. 471 00:27:30,451 --> 00:27:32,021 And it wasn't horribly expensive. 472 00:27:32,021 --> 00:27:37,091 It wasn't like a Tesla Model X, but it's in the same sort of class, I would say, as 473 00:27:37,091 --> 00:27:37,751 a Model X. 474 00:27:37,751 --> 00:27:43,451 It's kind of a luxury large SUV, not a three row SUV, but it's a large SUV. 475 00:27:43,911 --> 00:27:45,998 And... 476 00:27:46,097 --> 00:27:47,877 Again, no breakdowns. 477 00:27:47,877 --> 00:27:49,257 You don't do anything to them. 478 00:27:49,257 --> 00:27:51,277 It's like a dream come true. 479 00:27:51,277 --> 00:27:55,417 It's like the most reliable Mercedes from the 90s on steroids. 480 00:27:55,417 --> 00:27:58,097 That's just ridiculously reliable. 481 00:27:58,097 --> 00:27:59,377 You can charge it in your garage. 482 00:27:59,377 --> 00:28:01,377 I don't go to gas stations anymore. 483 00:28:01,877 --> 00:28:08,257 And really that was what has been the evolution for me, being utterly convinced 484 00:28:08,257 --> 00:28:11,497 that not only is it... 485 00:28:11,569 --> 00:28:18,089 Beneficial personally, from a national standpoint, sourcing the fuel for the 486 00:28:18,089 --> 00:28:22,789 transportation from domestically produced energy is strategically in the best 487 00:28:22,789 --> 00:28:23,579 interest of the country. 488 00:28:23,579 --> 00:28:27,529 I think that's one of the reasons why China is so ferociously starting to adopt 489 00:28:27,529 --> 00:28:31,969 EVs and encouraging them just because they could be energy independent. 490 00:28:32,338 --> 00:28:36,338 interesting you mentioned that trip to coal country because if anything you know 491 00:28:36,338 --> 00:28:40,918 the generating electricity from coal could actually you know save some of these areas 492 00:28:40,918 --> 00:28:45,518 because you could actually have a coal powered EV at that point but that is a 493 00:28:45,518 --> 00:28:49,905 meme and a trope that is pretty much dying out as far as coal production goes now. 494 00:28:49,905 --> 00:28:51,625 Yeah, my house is nuclear. 495 00:28:51,625 --> 00:28:54,985 I don't know if that's good or bad, but it is what it is. 496 00:28:56,667 --> 00:29:00,007 yeah, being on the West coast, we have a lot of hydro and that has its own pros and 497 00:29:00,007 --> 00:29:00,887 cons. 498 00:29:01,507 --> 00:29:02,547 Yeah, that's kind of interesting. 499 00:29:02,547 --> 00:29:05,347 You talk about your trip through cool country because I've drawn, I drive 500 00:29:05,347 --> 00:29:10,047 through, I've done a lot of road trips through Wyoming and, there it's kind of 501 00:29:10,047 --> 00:29:16,587 the same deal where large coal mines and, the actual coal facilities. 502 00:29:16,587 --> 00:29:21,007 And there's definitely, I don't know. 503 00:29:21,007 --> 00:29:23,105 I w I was kind of surprised. 504 00:29:23,151 --> 00:29:27,271 how they didn't really cast off EVs in my experience with meeting people there. 505 00:29:27,271 --> 00:29:30,011 I didn't go to any of the dealerships, maybe that'd be different, but it 506 00:29:30,011 --> 00:29:34,791 definitely did seem to be kind of more of an openness and interest in it than I had 507 00:29:34,791 --> 00:29:35,611 been expecting. 508 00:29:35,611 --> 00:29:40,171 I think that's almost why I was so surprised of my recent dealership 509 00:29:40,171 --> 00:29:40,531 experience. 510 00:29:40,531 --> 00:29:45,611 Not being like negative per se, but not just being open to like, okay, this is a 511 00:29:45,611 --> 00:29:46,771 buyer that's interested in it. 512 00:29:46,771 --> 00:29:51,171 Why don't I just move forward and make this happen instead of trying to go down a 513 00:29:51,171 --> 00:29:51,741 different path. 514 00:29:51,741 --> 00:29:52,603 But. 515 00:29:52,779 --> 00:29:55,089 with that, one of the, let's, let's change topics a little bit. 516 00:29:55,089 --> 00:29:57,879 I guess go to the actual charging side of stuff. 517 00:29:57,879 --> 00:30:02,179 And I know, it's, it was really interesting on our last conversation 518 00:30:02,179 --> 00:30:05,859 talking with you guys about your experience with kind of DC fast charging 519 00:30:05,859 --> 00:30:10,119 on the East coast versus kind of what being really in the center of Oregon. 520 00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:17,419 So kind of in a pretty rural area, just the, evolution and the addition of EV 521 00:30:17,419 --> 00:30:19,327 public EV chargers. 522 00:30:19,727 --> 00:30:21,687 There was a large announcement. 523 00:30:21,687 --> 00:30:24,707 I know it seems like you've been following it pretty closely, Walter and Steve about 524 00:30:24,707 --> 00:30:30,787 kind of flying Jay and some of the stuff with, GM and their, I believe, EV go kind 525 00:30:30,787 --> 00:30:33,217 of have like a partnership for rolling out. 526 00:30:33,217 --> 00:30:37,207 And it seems like they've kind of cut that back from everything I can see here in 527 00:30:37,207 --> 00:30:39,267 Oregon, unfortunately. 528 00:30:39,577 --> 00:30:44,727 but I, I'm just kind of curious if you guys have seen any new developments or, 529 00:30:44,727 --> 00:30:47,887 and I know kind of the other big thing that happened a few months ago or. 530 00:30:47,887 --> 00:30:50,587 Probably not even that long a couple of months ago was the big kind of 531 00:30:50,587 --> 00:30:54,227 announcements from Tesla kind of pulling back on their charging team a bit, but 532 00:30:54,227 --> 00:30:58,827 kind of just curious to hear regionally what your experience has been lately. 533 00:30:59,147 --> 00:31:05,027 just cause I had to use a public charger the other day and, it's a CPO I've, 534 00:31:06,267 --> 00:31:10,817 charging provider that I consistently have been underwhelmed with. 535 00:31:10,817 --> 00:31:13,687 And I just, fortunately I didn't need a charge. 536 00:31:14,547 --> 00:31:17,659 but I decided, you know what, this is a pretty. 537 00:31:18,479 --> 00:31:19,939 Heavily invested one. 538 00:31:19,939 --> 00:31:25,239 this it's not, I actually have no problem saying it's EVCS and it's essentially part 539 00:31:25,239 --> 00:31:27,689 of the West coast electric highway program. 540 00:31:27,689 --> 00:31:32,239 So they put a bunch of them all up and down Oregon, California and Washington. 541 00:31:32,239 --> 00:31:34,599 And it was a terrible experience. 542 00:31:34,599 --> 00:31:36,759 I'll leave it at that. 543 00:31:36,939 --> 00:31:38,939 but I, I just be curious. 544 00:31:38,939 --> 00:31:41,799 It seems like you guys have been seeing a lot more kind of development with the 545 00:31:41,799 --> 00:31:46,499 public fast charters on the East coast and kind of Midwest area and just continued 546 00:31:46,499 --> 00:31:46,799 growth. 547 00:31:46,799 --> 00:31:47,823 And I don't know if it. 548 00:31:47,823 --> 00:31:52,963 Seems to be like it's coming east to west with some of these projects, but I just be 549 00:31:52,963 --> 00:31:57,123 curious to hear what experience you guys have been having with just your own 550 00:31:57,123 --> 00:32:02,603 personal charging and then other maybe just stories of note in the space that I 551 00:32:02,603 --> 00:32:04,301 think we could share with our listeners. 552 00:32:04,626 --> 00:32:06,098 I think I... 553 00:32:06,098 --> 00:32:11,038 I have a lot of experience with Electrify America and some of the early programs, so 554 00:32:11,038 --> 00:32:16,558 EVGO and the CCS networks that proliferated and Walter has definitely 555 00:32:16,558 --> 00:32:21,818 stepped in with a lot of coverage from the kind of ground zero of your, as you say, 556 00:32:21,818 --> 00:32:26,958 Pilot Flying Jays, your Buc -E's and Mercedes, Fast Charging, Walmart getting 557 00:32:26,958 --> 00:32:27,958 into it. 558 00:32:27,958 --> 00:32:33,258 So I can set a stage perhaps for where we've come from and how it started. 559 00:32:33,258 --> 00:32:36,464 And I think Walter is just the king of weekly. 560 00:32:36,464 --> 00:32:40,504 on all of these new networks that are expanding out of his area and into yours, 561 00:32:40,504 --> 00:32:42,944 Chase to an extent, certainly into mine. 562 00:32:43,124 --> 00:32:47,824 But going back to the initial kind of areas with Electrify America, which 563 00:32:47,824 --> 00:32:53,564 started up in my area, Central Massachusetts around 2018, they obviously 564 00:32:53,564 --> 00:32:59,058 carried the can in the last year or two for the poster child of public. 565 00:32:59,058 --> 00:33:03,388 charging unreliability, not being able to get a charge, half of the site being down, 566 00:33:03,388 --> 00:33:04,498 that kind of thing. 567 00:33:04,498 --> 00:33:10,718 I think it was fair to an extent that you could certainly say a lot of their older 568 00:33:10,718 --> 00:33:12,968 equipment had problems. 569 00:33:12,968 --> 00:33:15,918 They've acknowledged that themselves and the West Coast seems to have been a 570 00:33:15,918 --> 00:33:17,478 particular pain point. 571 00:33:17,490 --> 00:33:24,190 Growing out in the last year, 18 months maybe now, they've upgraded to the latest 572 00:33:24,190 --> 00:33:28,990 generation hardware with mostly BTC power and signet stations, which are kind of 573 00:33:28,990 --> 00:33:34,130 visible via this black siding and cladding and then a diagonal top, but most notably 574 00:33:34,130 --> 00:33:36,070 they only have one port. 575 00:33:36,114 --> 00:33:40,674 I've found personally, and having been kind of gravitate towards them because I 576 00:33:40,674 --> 00:33:44,874 have a free charging plan that ends in about six months time with the IONIQ 5 577 00:33:44,874 --> 00:33:48,134 that kind of keeps me on Electrify America to an extent. 578 00:33:48,134 --> 00:33:52,454 They've been much better in the last, certainly since they ripped and replaced a 579 00:33:52,454 --> 00:33:53,554 lot of those locations. 580 00:33:53,554 --> 00:33:55,794 They've been, I really haven't had any problems. 581 00:33:55,794 --> 00:33:59,254 I can't remember the last time I could not charge with Electrify America. 582 00:33:59,378 --> 00:34:04,038 EBGO has been kind of hampered to an extent with these older sites. 583 00:34:04,038 --> 00:34:07,518 They've had the same issue of older hardware that they put in perhaps even 584 00:34:07,518 --> 00:34:11,128 before 2018, a lot of 50 kilowatt, 100 kilowatts. 585 00:34:11,128 --> 00:34:14,318 So by today's standards, you know, if you're looking at 200, 300 kilowatt 586 00:34:14,318 --> 00:34:17,618 charging, they are antiquated units that have been in the ground for... 587 00:34:17,618 --> 00:34:21,418 almost a decade now, so a lot of those, they're having the same kind of thing, 588 00:34:21,418 --> 00:34:24,678 although not on such a nationwide scale as Electrify America. 589 00:34:24,678 --> 00:34:26,218 So they have improved as well. 590 00:34:26,218 --> 00:34:30,418 You've got a lot of the NEVI funding, which maybe we'll get onto as a national 591 00:34:30,418 --> 00:34:36,658 federally funded program, is using these combination EVGO and Pilot Flying J 592 00:34:36,658 --> 00:34:41,358 locations, which have 350 kilowatt hardware, you know, pretty much rock solid 593 00:34:41,358 --> 00:34:45,658 as far as I've seen, maybe one outage in six to nine months of the NEVI program 594 00:34:45,658 --> 00:34:46,998 being around. 595 00:34:46,998 --> 00:34:47,904 But it's a 596 00:34:47,904 --> 00:34:52,244 those two players that kind of formed it, you know, and actually are a viable 597 00:34:52,244 --> 00:34:57,104 nationwide network perhaps, are probably the most, you know, long -standing 598 00:34:57,104 --> 00:35:00,323 standard bearers and they both seem to be getting their act together compared to 599 00:35:00,323 --> 00:35:04,524 maybe two years ago when everything was getting, you know, negative headlines, but 600 00:35:04,524 --> 00:35:06,546 that kind of bleeds into... 601 00:35:06,546 --> 00:35:08,316 The East Coast has certainly been positive for me. 602 00:35:08,316 --> 00:35:12,546 I do a lot of trips over to Ohio, so Midwest connecting Northeast has always 603 00:35:12,546 --> 00:35:16,846 been fairly good for me, but Walter is seeing that kind of, those new networks 604 00:35:16,846 --> 00:35:21,806 branch out of his area and can speak pretty authoritatively to what's coming 605 00:35:21,806 --> 00:35:23,882 and how far they've got so far. 606 00:35:26,641 --> 00:35:27,249 . 607 00:35:27,249 --> 00:35:30,149 Yeah, and I could kind of venture off, but I'm going to try to stay focused on the 608 00:35:30,149 --> 00:35:31,389 question that was asked. 609 00:35:31,389 --> 00:35:37,109 But the one that I've seen recently, like just today, was VW Dieselgate funds 610 00:35:37,109 --> 00:35:40,989 disbursement for state run locations. 611 00:35:40,989 --> 00:35:45,209 There's a lot of blank spots in the map that are getting filled in, at least in 612 00:35:45,209 --> 00:35:47,329 the state of North Carolina for that. 613 00:35:47,429 --> 00:35:52,429 Just recently, two new stations opened in kind of an underserved area. 614 00:35:52,429 --> 00:35:54,869 And so those funds are still getting dispersed. 615 00:35:54,869 --> 00:35:56,989 So there's Dieselgate funds getting dispersed. 616 00:35:56,989 --> 00:35:57,203 There's 617 00:35:57,203 --> 00:36:00,399 the large pool of NEBI funds getting ready to be dispersed. 618 00:36:00,399 --> 00:36:02,139 And I'm sorry, not to cut you off. 619 00:36:02,139 --> 00:36:06,619 When you say diesel gate funds, it's not necessarily that they're electrify America 620 00:36:06,619 --> 00:36:08,849 sites, but they are sites. 621 00:36:08,849 --> 00:36:09,499 Yeah. 622 00:36:09,499 --> 00:36:11,559 Just to clarify for a list. 623 00:36:11,659 --> 00:36:12,903 Yeah. 624 00:36:12,913 --> 00:36:18,993 disbursements for local independent CPOs getting built and lots of times those will 625 00:36:18,993 --> 00:36:24,693 be CPE 250s that have wrapping on them indicating that there was a joint 626 00:36:24,693 --> 00:36:29,293 partnership with the state or whatever and those are very common in my area and 627 00:36:29,293 --> 00:36:34,133 there's been additional building of those in underserved areas along alternative 628 00:36:34,133 --> 00:36:37,553 fuel corridors through the state of North Carolina as of late. 629 00:36:37,553 --> 00:36:38,953 So that's still going on. 630 00:36:38,953 --> 00:36:40,259 But really the big 631 00:36:40,259 --> 00:36:45,059 is the C -Store space, the convenience store space, where as a C -Store operator, 632 00:36:45,059 --> 00:36:48,719 if you look to see that you could have a higher dwell time of your customers, and 633 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:53,399 you could also have your fuel delivered near the theoretical speed of light and 634 00:36:53,399 --> 00:36:59,999 not have to have liquid form trucked into a store in tanks, it just makes business 635 00:36:59,999 --> 00:37:04,679 sense to sink a little more upfront costs into electric vehicle charging 636 00:37:04,679 --> 00:37:08,359 infrastructure and then let your customers decide if they're going to use them or 637 00:37:08,359 --> 00:37:08,579 not. 638 00:37:08,579 --> 00:37:09,683 And I think there's a lot of 639 00:37:09,683 --> 00:37:11,803 store operators experimenting with that concept. 640 00:37:11,803 --> 00:37:13,723 You mentioned Pilot Flying J. 641 00:37:13,723 --> 00:37:14,943 Not slow down. 642 00:37:14,943 --> 00:37:15,703 I don't know. 643 00:37:15,703 --> 00:37:16,893 So you mentioned slow down. 644 00:37:16,893 --> 00:37:17,873 That's not what I'm seeing. 645 00:37:17,873 --> 00:37:19,453 In fact, I just saw another new site today. 646 00:37:19,453 --> 00:37:25,303 I'm up to 41 sites that are now under construction with 38 sites open. 647 00:37:25,303 --> 00:37:27,583 And their goal is 200 by the end of the year. 648 00:37:27,583 --> 00:37:29,803 And I'm starting to think they might make it. 649 00:37:29,803 --> 00:37:34,143 So if they finish what they have now on their plate, they'll be up to 80. 650 00:37:34,803 --> 00:37:40,103 And every day I turn around, there's additional sites getting spotted as under. 651 00:37:40,155 --> 00:37:43,614 so that's definitely in full swing and as you mentioned is the joint partnership 652 00:37:43,614 --> 00:37:50,015 between General Motors, Pilot Flying J which is at Berkshire Hathaway Company, as 653 00:37:50,015 --> 00:37:54,875 well as EVgo so it's a triple partnership. 654 00:37:55,249 --> 00:38:02,609 But really it's the C stores, the Circle K's, the 7 -Elevens, the Quick Trips, the 655 00:38:02,609 --> 00:38:09,529 BP's, the Shell's stations, all those locations that are looking at advantageous 656 00:38:09,749 --> 00:38:15,169 customer dwell times and the ease of delivering the fuel to the vehicles, in my 657 00:38:15,169 --> 00:38:17,649 opinion is the big sea change that I'm seeing. 658 00:38:17,649 --> 00:38:20,079 There's another one regional out here called Racetrack. 659 00:38:20,079 --> 00:38:25,029 Them as well are, they just open multiple locations throughout the Dallas -Fort 660 00:38:25,029 --> 00:38:25,203 Worth area. 661 00:38:25,203 --> 00:38:28,083 area and the build continues. 662 00:38:28,783 --> 00:38:29,223 That's crazy. 663 00:38:29,223 --> 00:38:33,823 I'm kind of curious where you go to for information, new location specifically 664 00:38:33,823 --> 00:38:34,183 with it. 665 00:38:34,183 --> 00:38:39,423 Cause the reason I bring up, the ones in Oregon was just two weeks ago, I had 666 00:38:39,423 --> 00:38:44,103 looked on the map that had showed where there were potential ones and where there 667 00:38:44,103 --> 00:38:45,843 were going to be ones in Oregon. 668 00:38:45,843 --> 00:38:48,303 And now they're showing is all potential. 669 00:38:48,443 --> 00:38:50,233 And I understood that. 670 00:38:50,233 --> 00:38:54,003 And I've kind of checked you in on a couple other places that it's maybe not 671 00:38:54,003 --> 00:38:56,703 happening or it's like still like it's being pushed out. 672 00:38:56,703 --> 00:38:58,191 And so I'm, I'm just kind of curious. 673 00:38:58,191 --> 00:39:01,371 Where you usually go to find kind of confirmation like, cause I'm using the map 674 00:39:01,371 --> 00:39:02,110 that's based. 675 00:39:02,110 --> 00:39:03,301 I believe that was GM site. 676 00:39:03,301 --> 00:39:05,011 It could have been pilots. 677 00:39:05,651 --> 00:39:09,951 and now they're showing them as optional or like potential ones versus it was going 678 00:39:09,951 --> 00:39:11,781 to be mostly potential, like a few for sure. 679 00:39:11,781 --> 00:39:13,575 And now it's just showing like maybe. 680 00:39:13,681 --> 00:39:15,421 Yeah, so if it was, 681 00:39:15,537 --> 00:39:18,257 kind of dark gray with purple pin drops. 682 00:39:18,257 --> 00:39:19,626 That's the Pilot Flying J map. 683 00:39:19,626 --> 00:39:24,377 And that is updated, reflecting ones that are expected to be in service by the end 684 00:39:24,377 --> 00:39:25,107 of 24. 685 00:39:25,107 --> 00:39:26,667 And the count is 200. 686 00:39:26,667 --> 00:39:28,977 Their goal is 500 in total. 687 00:39:28,977 --> 00:39:32,177 So it's kind of on track. 688 00:39:32,177 --> 00:39:33,347 It depends on which map you look at. 689 00:39:33,347 --> 00:39:37,937 Some maps show like kind of like the proposed phase one, but the one map that I 690 00:39:37,937 --> 00:39:42,147 think you're referring to is the end of 2024 map off the Pilot Flying J website. 691 00:39:42,147 --> 00:39:43,657 And there's 200 in there. 692 00:39:43,657 --> 00:39:45,491 And as you say, it's proposed location. 693 00:39:45,491 --> 00:39:50,123 So there's some variability in whether or not those are actually going to occur. 694 00:39:50,123 --> 00:39:54,123 that maybe it's moved back because they might not there still might move forward 695 00:39:54,123 --> 00:39:55,883 with them just not in 2024. 696 00:39:55,903 --> 00:39:58,883 Because the one I'd seen earlier in the year showed that there was gonna be like 697 00:39:58,883 --> 00:40:02,563 three and now it's like proposed and I'd love to see more. 698 00:40:02,563 --> 00:40:04,843 So that that that's good. 699 00:40:05,383 --> 00:40:06,457 Yeah. 700 00:40:06,457 --> 00:40:09,697 41 that I'm currently tracking under construction and every day there's new 701 00:40:09,697 --> 00:40:10,427 ones popping up. 702 00:40:10,427 --> 00:40:12,531 So they're spending cash. 703 00:40:12,531 --> 00:40:18,931 there any States or kind of hubs or areas that you're seeing them take off more than 704 00:40:18,931 --> 00:40:21,471 others, or are you seeing kind of it? 705 00:40:21,471 --> 00:40:23,931 Like I said, when I looked at the map last, it looked like it was almost going 706 00:40:23,931 --> 00:40:24,831 east to west. 707 00:40:24,831 --> 00:40:26,241 And I'm just kind of curious. 708 00:40:26,241 --> 00:40:28,731 There might've been like some in California, like Southern California, like 709 00:40:28,731 --> 00:40:30,011 in Seattle. 710 00:40:30,491 --> 00:40:33,311 but I'm just kind of curious if you're seeing pockets or stern States where 711 00:40:33,311 --> 00:40:35,653 they're really being built first. 712 00:40:35,665 --> 00:40:39,925 There's a little bit of tea leaf reading, but from what I'm gathering, they seem to 713 00:40:39,925 --> 00:40:42,885 be watching who is announcing NEBI funds. 714 00:40:42,885 --> 00:40:47,345 And when a state announces, they either pause to receive the NEBI funds or if they 715 00:40:47,345 --> 00:40:49,865 weren't awarded any, they proceed with their private bill. 716 00:40:49,865 --> 00:40:52,905 So they're kind of like waiting, staggering up, waiting for those NEBI 717 00:40:52,905 --> 00:40:53,725 funds to be released. 718 00:40:53,725 --> 00:40:58,465 And in the state of Ohio, they had many round one awards and they they're built. 719 00:40:58,465 --> 00:41:01,125 They are under construction and almost done. 720 00:41:01,125 --> 00:41:02,205 So basically they're track. 721 00:41:02,205 --> 00:41:05,105 They seem to be tracking NEBI announcements. 722 00:41:05,679 --> 00:41:06,799 That's great. 723 00:41:06,899 --> 00:41:10,979 Yeah, I know you had some thoughts you wanted to share on the Nevi funding side 724 00:41:10,979 --> 00:41:13,979 of stuff, Steve, and just seeing how that's been rolled out. 725 00:41:13,979 --> 00:41:18,279 I know on LinkedIn, I've seen a couple of your posts around both good and bad with 726 00:41:18,279 --> 00:41:19,009 your thoughts on that. 727 00:41:19,009 --> 00:41:20,850 So I think that'd be great to share here. 728 00:41:20,850 --> 00:41:25,050 Yeah, I mean, I think if anybody wants the actual numbers and you know who's awarded 729 00:41:25,050 --> 00:41:30,270 what and which states are leading or which CPOs are leading, Lauren MacDonald at EV 730 00:41:30,270 --> 00:41:31,930 adoption is the place to go. 731 00:41:31,930 --> 00:41:35,410 He's got the policy side down and who's winning what. 732 00:41:35,410 --> 00:41:38,230 So there's always good rankings coming from that. 733 00:41:38,310 --> 00:41:41,650 I think, you know, most notably is kind of as Walter pointed out, you know, I've, 734 00:41:41,650 --> 00:41:45,130 I've focused on the construction side and then the reliability of stations, which 735 00:41:45,130 --> 00:41:47,710 are in the ground, which is easy at the moment because there are only eight of 736 00:41:47,710 --> 00:41:47,910 them. 737 00:41:47,910 --> 00:41:51,260 So it's pretty easy to track, but as Walter kind of hinted there, you know, 738 00:41:51,260 --> 00:41:57,380 there's a, I think Pilot Flying J and EVGO in that partnership won about 20, 22, 739 00:41:57,380 --> 00:41:58,260 something like that. 740 00:41:58,260 --> 00:42:02,550 Stations in the round one funding and about half of those now are, one of them 741 00:42:02,550 --> 00:42:04,210 is open, but about, you know, 742 00:42:04,210 --> 00:42:05,440 are about to come online. 743 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,570 So we're really going to start to get this tsunami of activations in the states that 744 00:42:09,570 --> 00:42:11,430 led the way with wards. 745 00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:16,130 But that's kind of the next wave of activations because you're seeing, as 746 00:42:16,130 --> 00:42:21,790 Walter mentioned, a lot of chains like the Loves, the Travel Centers of America. 747 00:42:22,130 --> 00:42:26,430 I lose track of the number of names, but a lot of these are applying and because 748 00:42:26,430 --> 00:42:30,050 they're supposed to be travel networks and they're supposed to be within one mile of 749 00:42:30,050 --> 00:42:33,570 an interstate, you really winnow down pretty quickly what's within that one mile 750 00:42:33,570 --> 00:42:35,030 of an interstate exit, right? 751 00:42:35,030 --> 00:42:39,910 There's travel, you know, truck stops, travel centers, maybe surface plazas and 752 00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:41,760 the occasional mom and pop store. 753 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,330 But for the most part, this is these big national chains that are starting to open 754 00:42:46,330 --> 00:42:47,470 these things. 755 00:42:47,470 --> 00:42:50,730 So we're seeing a lot of the activations happen here in the Northeast, which has 756 00:42:50,730 --> 00:42:52,084 helped me keep track 757 00:42:52,084 --> 00:42:56,184 of it you know I was able to go up to the Tesla, the first Tesla federally funded 758 00:42:56,184 --> 00:43:01,004 site in Maine which is in a really strange little area kind of not really near an 759 00:43:01,004 --> 00:43:04,284 interstate but off on the way to Acadia National Park. 760 00:43:04,284 --> 00:43:08,524 So you're seeing some kind of leading tech almost you know because it's the first 761 00:43:08,524 --> 00:43:13,224 Tesla V4 post that has a touchscreen on it first that you can activate with a card 762 00:43:13,224 --> 00:43:17,304 whereas previously you'd have just plug in and you know because that's Tesla's closed 763 00:43:17,304 --> 00:43:21,604 ecosystem you know working in lockstep but now they've got all these new 764 00:43:21,604 --> 00:43:22,004 requirements. 765 00:43:22,004 --> 00:43:27,264 So you're starting to see the money flow to your Teslas, your Pilot Flying Jays, 766 00:43:27,264 --> 00:43:31,824 and one of the biggest names that I don't really have a lot of kind of experience 767 00:43:31,824 --> 00:43:37,044 with because they're in Midwest, kind of Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, that kind of 768 00:43:37,044 --> 00:43:42,404 area provider is Francis Energy, who I think just became the leading number of 769 00:43:42,404 --> 00:43:46,304 awards, at least certainly they won the most funding from the National Electric 770 00:43:46,304 --> 00:43:48,064 Vehicle Infrastructure funding. 771 00:43:48,064 --> 00:43:51,904 And that's going to be really interesting because I don't hear great things about 772 00:43:51,904 --> 00:43:52,176 that. 773 00:43:52,176 --> 00:43:52,946 to be honest. 774 00:43:52,946 --> 00:43:57,776 Our viewers on the Coast to Coast TV's podcast have, you know, maybe it's using 775 00:43:57,776 --> 00:44:03,116 old equipment, old kind of dated references, but they have a lot of skin in 776 00:44:03,116 --> 00:44:07,436 the game for this Nefi funding and they are now kind of leading even beyond Tesla 777 00:44:07,436 --> 00:44:09,556 and you kind of hinted at the layoffs at Tesla. 778 00:44:09,556 --> 00:44:12,656 If they're going to take up the mantle, they're going to have a lot of pressure on 779 00:44:12,656 --> 00:44:16,156 their shoulders to really deliver for the number of sites and the amount of money 780 00:44:16,156 --> 00:44:17,676 that they're taking in. 781 00:44:18,927 --> 00:44:21,147 Yeah, I think that's kind of a good thing you brought up. 782 00:44:21,147 --> 00:44:23,907 Actually, there's quite a few different things you brought up. 783 00:44:23,907 --> 00:44:28,127 I think that's interesting around you said the Tesla one's kind of near a national 784 00:44:28,127 --> 00:44:29,387 park, correct? 785 00:44:29,387 --> 00:44:29,522 Or? 786 00:44:29,522 --> 00:44:32,862 Yeah, it's I mean they're supposed to be these initial rounds are on alternative 787 00:44:32,862 --> 00:44:37,062 fuel corridors So there's you know, every state has a certain amount of designated 788 00:44:37,062 --> 00:44:41,922 mileage on these corridors and one of them from Maine aside from the big I -95 route 789 00:44:41,922 --> 00:44:47,202 up to Canada is I think it's Route 1 along the coast kind of coastal main from the 790 00:44:47,202 --> 00:44:51,902 Portland area and then across to Acadia National Park so big tourist route There's 791 00:44:51,902 --> 00:44:55,982 a lot of cute little coastal main towns lighthouses all the stuff you associate 792 00:44:55,982 --> 00:44:59,476 with a good main trip But this is a nice little town kind of a harbor 793 00:44:59,476 --> 00:45:00,576 and 794 00:45:00,658 --> 00:45:04,098 Tesla just, for whatever reason, that was the first site they managed to get in the 795 00:45:04,098 --> 00:45:06,068 ground and was activated, I think, in April. 796 00:45:06,068 --> 00:45:11,418 But it's interesting that that has kind of pushed them to develop a new piece of the 797 00:45:11,418 --> 00:45:11,898 puzzle, right? 798 00:45:11,898 --> 00:45:15,098 Because they now need to, you know, and all the other things that we could talk 799 00:45:15,098 --> 00:45:17,618 about with public access for superchargers. 800 00:45:17,618 --> 00:45:20,718 This is something that has been to receive those federal funds. 801 00:45:20,718 --> 00:45:25,338 They had to have different kind of payment reader, the ability to display the, you 802 00:45:25,338 --> 00:45:29,438 know, cost per charge and have basic charging information displayed that would 803 00:45:29,438 --> 00:45:31,024 normally be pushed to the 804 00:45:31,024 --> 00:45:35,444 because that's you know all designed in Harris so it's starting to make that force 805 00:45:35,444 --> 00:45:40,004 even Tesla to make that transition to as much of a public charging provider as they 806 00:45:40,004 --> 00:45:41,322 wish to be. 807 00:45:42,191 --> 00:45:42,391 Yeah. 808 00:45:42,391 --> 00:45:46,651 And I think that's definitely, that could be unto itself, its own podcast, just kind 809 00:45:46,651 --> 00:45:50,001 of like the app experience versus, I mean, that was kind of what I reiterated. 810 00:45:50,001 --> 00:45:55,571 I even think tweeted or whatever you call it now on a Twitter X whatever. 811 00:45:55,821 --> 00:45:59,991 the other day after I had my bad experiences, like for EV's to really take 812 00:45:59,991 --> 00:46:02,571 up, it's gotta be just as easy as filling up with gas. 813 00:46:02,571 --> 00:46:05,051 If not easier from a payment standpoint. 814 00:46:05,051 --> 00:46:08,951 And I had a download two apps, put my credit card in three times. 815 00:46:09,211 --> 00:46:11,855 Apple pay doesn't work even though it has an Apple pay option. 816 00:46:11,855 --> 00:46:16,835 And just like, I cannot think of literally just such a bad experience. 817 00:46:16,835 --> 00:46:21,535 And so I think that's great to see, like you just need sometimes if you want to 818 00:46:21,535 --> 00:46:25,075 take the next level with kind of an app augmentation or kind of a software layer, 819 00:46:25,075 --> 00:46:26,015 great. 820 00:46:26,035 --> 00:46:29,535 But, for, I think all these different technologies that take off, they just have 821 00:46:29,535 --> 00:46:36,275 to work and the simplicity around just having a payment terminal and, ideally in 822 00:46:36,275 --> 00:46:38,191 a good world, it'd have like a plug and charge. 823 00:46:38,191 --> 00:46:40,401 sort of situation where it's even simpler than gas. 824 00:46:40,401 --> 00:46:41,361 You just plug in and walk away. 825 00:46:41,361 --> 00:46:42,418 Don't even think about it. 826 00:46:42,418 --> 00:46:45,678 I think that that makes the charging process, you know, when you talk about it, 827 00:46:45,678 --> 00:46:48,408 futzing around and spending three or four minutes to get it working. 828 00:46:48,408 --> 00:46:52,318 If you can just do that plug and charge and that becomes the standard, then it 829 00:46:52,318 --> 00:46:53,788 does take advantage over gas. 830 00:46:53,788 --> 00:46:58,218 You're not doing the card reader potential for skimming your data, you know, all that 831 00:46:58,218 --> 00:46:58,698 kind of stuff. 832 00:46:58,698 --> 00:46:59,278 It cuts out. 833 00:46:59,278 --> 00:47:02,738 And as long as it works, you can do exactly what Tesla owners do walk away to 834 00:47:02,738 --> 00:47:03,898 the store. 835 00:47:04,018 --> 00:47:07,458 passive kind of activity where the car charges whilst you do your stuff and then 836 00:47:07,458 --> 00:47:12,057 it starts to become a you know additive bonus because when you're fueling you're 837 00:47:12,057 --> 00:47:14,838 just fueling right that you've got to stand there you've got to hold the pump 838 00:47:14,838 --> 00:47:18,238 you've got to unless someone's there to do it for you like New Jersey or a few of 839 00:47:18,238 --> 00:47:21,618 those handful of states but for the most part you can go and do your other stuff 840 00:47:21,618 --> 00:47:24,996 while you're charging come back to the charge car and be on your way again. 841 00:47:25,935 --> 00:47:30,275 No, I mean, I, it saves, it seems simple, but it saves so much time on a road trip. 842 00:47:30,275 --> 00:47:34,175 If you're doing like back to back ones, just do plug them, walk away, go use the 843 00:47:34,175 --> 00:47:36,375 bathroom, get back in the car and go again. 844 00:47:36,795 --> 00:47:40,915 but yeah, that, not to do, I mean, I, I get it. 845 00:47:40,915 --> 00:47:44,855 The experience I had is rare, but it's just like, this is so unacceptable in 846 00:47:44,855 --> 00:47:45,915 2024. 847 00:47:46,545 --> 00:47:50,055 where, yeah, it had a card reader and the career doesn't even work. 848 00:47:50,055 --> 00:47:53,515 And I had to even find out like through just double checking and plug share that 849 00:47:53,515 --> 00:47:54,471 was like, 850 00:47:54,511 --> 00:47:58,571 Coming soon, payment terminal functionality. 851 00:47:58,571 --> 00:48:03,031 And that was, I believe, from the CPO back in like early 2023. 852 00:48:03,271 --> 00:48:06,261 And clearly it just never came, even though it has the terminal right there. 853 00:48:06,261 --> 00:48:08,238 And so I think just hearing all these stories. 854 00:48:08,238 --> 00:48:13,358 up EVCS with Eric because I'm sure he's got war stories from them as well. 855 00:48:13,995 --> 00:48:18,435 look forward to it and I want to commiserate with them because yeah, it's 856 00:48:18,435 --> 00:48:23,175 just, it's unfortunate because, they've got so many great sites that were funded 857 00:48:23,175 --> 00:48:25,455 by the state of Oregon to upgrade. 858 00:48:25,615 --> 00:48:31,935 And in my experience so far has been a missed opportunity, but, going back to 859 00:48:31,935 --> 00:48:33,585 kind of the rollout of the larger sites. 860 00:48:33,585 --> 00:48:38,075 I mean, what are you guys seeing as far as kind of like the ideal layout? 861 00:48:38,075 --> 00:48:40,565 I realized we're kind of coming up short on time here. 862 00:48:40,565 --> 00:48:42,343 So I just wanted to kind of figure out. 863 00:48:43,063 --> 00:48:48,243 just on the last thing on the Nevi funding, like, do you want to see, cause I 864 00:48:48,243 --> 00:48:51,823 think so many of these like early public fast charging installations, they might 865 00:48:51,823 --> 00:48:54,423 only be like four, maybe even up to six. 866 00:48:54,423 --> 00:48:57,443 And it really does seem like to make this model work. 867 00:48:57,443 --> 00:48:59,703 And you're starting to even see it at Bucky's and these other ones where they 868 00:48:59,703 --> 00:49:05,743 are doing also the very large charging, look, stall locations and stuff like that. 869 00:49:05,743 --> 00:49:08,983 And I just be curious to kind of hear what your guys thoughts on our, like what the 870 00:49:08,983 --> 00:49:11,535 ideal, if we're going to give. 871 00:49:11,535 --> 00:49:13,015 the NEVI funding to these locations. 872 00:49:13,015 --> 00:49:16,545 Like what should be the ideal minimum size, like minimum power? 873 00:49:16,545 --> 00:49:21,775 I know it's stated, but like, it's just been interesting to me what has been 874 00:49:21,775 --> 00:49:25,915 chosen versus what I think is kind of the more ideal and future -proofed solution 875 00:49:25,915 --> 00:49:27,099 for these sites. 876 00:49:31,153 --> 00:49:32,113 I can go first. 877 00:49:32,113 --> 00:49:35,893 I think there's two school of thoughts and I might just be speculating, but I think 878 00:49:35,893 --> 00:49:36,823 there's two school of thoughts. 879 00:49:36,823 --> 00:49:42,453 One is the longevity of the host and their viability long -term economically, whether 880 00:49:42,453 --> 00:49:43,893 or not they're going to be closing. 881 00:49:43,893 --> 00:49:47,773 So you want to gravitate more towards like community colleges or government 882 00:49:47,773 --> 00:49:53,233 institutions that will be around for a very long time, but that might not be in 883 00:49:53,233 --> 00:49:57,673 convenient locations or expediency, which are the convenience stores immediately off 884 00:49:57,673 --> 00:49:58,773 the interstates. 885 00:49:58,773 --> 00:50:01,107 Those are kind of the two main areas. 886 00:50:01,107 --> 00:50:03,297 that I seem to be focused on. 887 00:50:03,297 --> 00:50:06,347 And my personal opinion is the C -Store is right off the interstate, but real estate 888 00:50:06,347 --> 00:50:06,967 is pretty good. 889 00:50:06,967 --> 00:50:10,527 And as long as it doesn't get overly expensive for taxes, the charging stations 890 00:50:10,527 --> 00:50:14,147 themselves will help sustain the business model of the C -Store. 891 00:50:14,147 --> 00:50:18,467 So in my opinion, those are the nicest where you don't have to walk a long way to 892 00:50:18,467 --> 00:50:21,227 an anchor mall in order to go to a food court. 893 00:50:21,227 --> 00:50:24,707 It's just, you know, 10 steps away where you go inside and you have the facilities. 894 00:50:24,707 --> 00:50:26,497 You can get yourself a Slurpee or whatever you want. 895 00:50:26,497 --> 00:50:30,027 So my personal opinion is the C -Store is immediately off the interstate for road 896 00:50:30,027 --> 00:50:31,027 trips. 897 00:50:31,027 --> 00:50:36,567 inside urban areas or for people in multi -tenant dwellings, seat stores or grocery 898 00:50:36,567 --> 00:50:37,627 stores. 899 00:50:39,282 --> 00:50:44,302 Yeah, I think what we're seeing with Nevi is just the minimum being complied, you 900 00:50:44,302 --> 00:50:49,102 know, to get the money because Walter kind of pointed out they are looking, a lot of 901 00:50:49,102 --> 00:50:52,202 these players are looking to get a foot in the water. 902 00:50:52,202 --> 00:50:56,782 They're not trying to build out a massive charging hub as Tesla's had to do at some 903 00:50:56,782 --> 00:50:59,892 locations because they have the sheer volume and demand for it. 904 00:50:59,892 --> 00:51:04,202 They're just trying to add on those four ports, which are the requirement, the 905 00:51:04,202 --> 00:51:08,162 minimum 150 kilowatts, although a lot of them do go higher in various 906 00:51:08,162 --> 00:51:09,236 configurations. 907 00:51:09,236 --> 00:51:10,886 and get those in the ground. 908 00:51:10,886 --> 00:51:14,836 So they start to gather data, they get some federal funding for it, they start to 909 00:51:14,836 --> 00:51:19,336 offset some of those early, you know, very high capex costs that come with installing 910 00:51:19,336 --> 00:51:20,896 EV infrastructure. 911 00:51:21,010 --> 00:51:22,680 and just build from there. 912 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:27,110 But I think in terms of the ideal charging station, Walter kind of hit on it in that 913 00:51:27,110 --> 00:51:30,050 you really need to match it to the dual time of location. 914 00:51:30,050 --> 00:51:36,050 You know, if I have a gas station which already has a canopy and a lot of the 915 00:51:36,050 --> 00:51:39,150 creature comforts of a road trip, like your squeegees, your trash cans, stuff 916 00:51:39,150 --> 00:51:43,070 that we take for granted as travelers, you have to have those for the electric 917 00:51:43,070 --> 00:51:44,010 vehicle traveler as well. 918 00:51:44,010 --> 00:51:45,890 You need those as part of the makeup. 919 00:51:45,890 --> 00:51:50,790 It's a bizarre thing to have some big piece of construction and then kind of 920 00:51:50,790 --> 00:51:50,964 forgo. 921 00:51:50,964 --> 00:51:52,864 or some of the basic amenities. 922 00:51:52,864 --> 00:51:56,024 When you get to a town centre and some of those other locations, if things are 923 00:51:56,024 --> 00:51:59,084 walkable, then maybe a lower power is fine. 924 00:51:59,084 --> 00:52:04,284 Maybe you just need a bunch of lower power equipment that you can install and that 925 00:52:04,284 --> 00:52:08,484 may be a benefit for the town and the kind of people and businesses that are looking 926 00:52:08,484 --> 00:52:13,344 to benefit from this investment because then people do walk around the town, start 927 00:52:13,344 --> 00:52:17,842 to frequent the local businesses and use the facilities that are around them. 928 00:52:17,842 --> 00:52:20,182 So I think it varies from place to place. 929 00:52:20,182 --> 00:52:24,342 Some places you may want the kind of Electrify America charging hub that you 930 00:52:24,342 --> 00:52:29,702 have in downtown San Francisco with lounges and facilities and 20 chargers in 931 00:52:29,702 --> 00:52:32,082 places like the middle of Wyoming where you'd be in chase. 932 00:52:32,082 --> 00:52:34,942 I doubt you would want, I mean, you may want one, but probably not going to get 933 00:52:34,942 --> 00:52:36,302 one anytime soon. 934 00:52:37,071 --> 00:52:37,341 No. 935 00:52:37,341 --> 00:52:40,831 And I think what Walter says is pretty spot on. 936 00:52:41,130 --> 00:52:45,751 you, you want something that has the right facility or the right, amenities, but at 937 00:52:45,751 --> 00:52:50,031 the same time, like, yeah, that is kind of where, like you're saying a two 50, three 938 00:52:50,031 --> 00:52:51,521 50, like something higher power. 939 00:52:51,521 --> 00:52:53,491 So it's like 15 minutes. 940 00:52:53,491 --> 00:52:58,071 Usually kind of bathroom break, get a water or whatever, and you've got enough 941 00:52:58,071 --> 00:53:00,501 charge to kind of get on your way for another couple hours. 942 00:53:00,501 --> 00:53:03,437 Whereas like one 50. 943 00:53:03,471 --> 00:53:06,431 Even though it's still a decent amount of power can actually start having like a 944 00:53:06,431 --> 00:53:10,691 pretty big, Delta and how much time you might be sitting there to charge. 945 00:53:10,691 --> 00:53:12,381 And then it becomes kind of a different thing. 946 00:53:12,381 --> 00:53:14,851 If you're at a mall or a city center, like you're saying where it's like, okay, it's 947 00:53:14,851 --> 00:53:18,471 lower power, but I can go do something a bit more than hanging out at a gas station 948 00:53:18,471 --> 00:53:19,891 or a convenience store. 949 00:53:19,891 --> 00:53:21,233 But what were you going to say, Walter? 950 00:53:21,233 --> 00:53:24,933 I was going to say another thing I'm hearing with some frequency is the safety 951 00:53:24,933 --> 00:53:30,473 issue and lighting and having a staff member at a convenience store is 952 00:53:30,473 --> 00:53:37,053 beneficial because being alone in a mall parking lot at night is not something that 953 00:53:37,053 --> 00:53:41,533 is conducive to feeling safe for other EV drivers. 954 00:53:41,533 --> 00:53:45,573 Myself, I'm kind of the scary person so I don't worry about that. 955 00:53:45,593 --> 00:53:49,493 Other people apparently are, I'm hearing that more and more that the convenience 956 00:53:49,493 --> 00:53:51,187 stores generally are sought after. 957 00:53:51,187 --> 00:53:55,987 because there's a staff member on site and the safety issue and the lighting and 958 00:53:55,987 --> 00:53:56,907 everything. 959 00:53:57,839 --> 00:53:59,199 No, I think that's a great call. 960 00:53:59,199 --> 00:54:02,689 And like kind of the evil turn that we've seen is like what Steve was talking about, 961 00:54:02,689 --> 00:54:08,499 like the electrify America, one in San Francisco where it is gated off. 962 00:54:08,499 --> 00:54:09,439 There's other stuff there. 963 00:54:09,439 --> 00:54:13,139 And so it is more secure, but the, and you, you see actually more of these in 964 00:54:13,139 --> 00:54:13,499 Europe. 965 00:54:13,499 --> 00:54:17,879 And I think kind of like the Mercedes bins one they did domestically, but obviously 966 00:54:17,879 --> 00:54:21,959 then the expenditures of that and that investment goes way up. 967 00:54:21,967 --> 00:54:25,277 And so I think you're totally right that there's a pretty good overlap. 968 00:54:25,277 --> 00:54:28,187 There's already so much of the infrastructure and kind of safety elements 969 00:54:28,187 --> 00:54:33,767 built in with the traditional C stores that it just makes sense to have more EV 970 00:54:33,767 --> 00:54:34,787 chargers there. 971 00:54:34,787 --> 00:54:40,767 And I realized we're kind of coming up on our time here and I want to be respectful. 972 00:54:40,767 --> 00:54:43,877 I know Steve, you wanted to kind of talk a little bit about nursery charging. 973 00:54:43,877 --> 00:54:46,787 So maybe we can just talk about that for like the last couple of minutes and kind 974 00:54:46,787 --> 00:54:50,747 of share some of your thoughts on what your experience with that has been before 975 00:54:50,747 --> 00:54:52,135 we sign off here. 976 00:54:52,498 --> 00:54:55,071 I'm sure you might be jumping into another podcast with. 977 00:54:55,071 --> 00:54:59,111 know yeah, maybe let's let's maybe start with and think of it as more of a teaser 978 00:54:59,111 --> 00:55:03,335 for the next episode But I just want to make sure we cover it with the time 979 00:55:03,350 --> 00:55:06,050 well, I know I visited the. 980 00:55:06,066 --> 00:55:10,506 Gravity charging hub, which is one of the big kind of headline 500 kilowatts for 981 00:55:10,506 --> 00:55:13,366 whatever the technology behind that is, that's open to debate. 982 00:55:13,366 --> 00:55:18,746 But, you know, the idea of having 20, 30 charges in the center of downtown 983 00:55:18,746 --> 00:55:23,346 Manhattan that can fill a car in 15, 20 minutes is an interesting one and called a 984 00:55:23,346 --> 00:55:23,956 lot of headlines. 985 00:55:23,956 --> 00:55:28,046 But I found myself thinking more and more, you know, we had we spoke to the co 986 00:55:28,046 --> 00:55:31,806 -founder of its electric, one of the curbside charging solutions, which is 987 00:55:31,806 --> 00:55:32,726 purely level two. 988 00:55:32,726 --> 00:55:36,020 And there's a lot of these vault posts in New York City you have. 989 00:55:36,020 --> 00:55:39,860 flow installing very high utilization. 990 00:55:40,466 --> 00:55:45,246 curbside charging and to me you know the experience was fine at the Gravity Center 991 00:55:45,246 --> 00:55:49,806 but I was that was a dedicated activity I had to do I mean I filmed a video but I 992 00:55:49,806 --> 00:55:53,166 went there to do that and to check it out but I wasn't able to go and take advantage 993 00:55:53,166 --> 00:55:56,626 of any of the things in Midtown Manhattan because I needed to be back to my car 994 00:55:56,626 --> 00:56:01,026 because it was faster whereas if I'd have been able to plug in you know on a level 2 995 00:56:01,026 --> 00:56:05,866 you're kind of 7 -8 kilowatts it charges perfectly reasonably I'm probably gonna 996 00:56:05,866 --> 00:56:10,420 enjoy downtown Manhattan for four or five six hours and then I'm going to on 997 00:56:10,420 --> 00:56:14,060 way with much the same amount of energy as I left with with the dedicated fast 998 00:56:14,060 --> 00:56:18,220 charging stop and probably install a lot more of those curbside chargers for the 999 00:56:18,220 --> 00:56:21,000 money that it costs to build a charging hub. 1000 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:25,000 So I think there's value in having both obviously as a ride share driver or maybe 1001 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:29,340 a commercial fleet driver you need to have that quick charging stop time is money and 1002 00:56:29,340 --> 00:56:33,160 you need to be on your way but as a visitor and maybe a local business I'm 1003 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:37,500 just thinking more and more that we can't or really shouldn't overlook that level 1004 00:56:37,500 --> 00:56:40,340 two charging it's a valuable piece of the puzzle that 1005 00:56:40,340 --> 00:56:43,665 those solutions that I mentioned are going to be a big part of, I think. 1006 00:56:43,983 --> 00:56:45,293 Yeah, I can agree more in that. 1007 00:56:45,293 --> 00:56:49,243 I think there's a lot of really interesting level two DC charging options 1008 00:56:49,243 --> 00:56:52,443 that are kind of starting to hit the market now that are kind of the right 1009 00:56:52,443 --> 00:56:56,443 balance and actually bring down costs even further, especially if you are like a 1010 00:56:56,443 --> 00:57:00,423 parking garage or a large building where you actually probably have easier access 1011 00:57:00,423 --> 00:57:01,647 to DC. 1012 00:57:01,647 --> 00:57:06,327 And you can kind of tap into them and have a large scale facility and have more DC. 1013 00:57:06,327 --> 00:57:10,267 It's not going to be 350 kilowatts, but even if it's anywhere from like 10 to 20, 1014 00:57:10,267 --> 00:57:14,547 that's still like plenty and makes a lot more scalable and easier for those kinds 1015 00:57:14,547 --> 00:57:15,447 of experiences. 1016 00:57:15,447 --> 00:57:19,467 Cause yeah, I think you're totally right with the investment and also just like 1017 00:57:19,467 --> 00:57:22,639 being able to be more efficient with the time. 1018 00:57:22,639 --> 00:57:25,979 of leveraging level two charging when you are in a place like Manhattan or somewhere 1019 00:57:25,979 --> 00:57:26,199 else. 1020 00:57:26,199 --> 00:57:28,489 And it's not that you need a fast charge. 1021 00:57:28,489 --> 00:57:32,419 You just need a consistent charge reliably. 1022 00:57:33,039 --> 00:57:35,619 and go into the exactly. 1023 00:57:35,619 --> 00:57:41,319 And, and I think that's also, I think we talked about this on our previous episode 1024 00:57:41,319 --> 00:57:45,759 too, where it's like the importance of having commercial specific charging only. 1025 00:57:45,759 --> 00:57:48,431 If you're going to be an Uber, you're going to be someone there needs to be. 1026 00:57:48,431 --> 00:57:52,251 an option that kind of makes it so that's where they go instead of always having to 1027 00:57:52,251 --> 00:57:57,251 go to the public chargers and then maybe people who are on their trips, taking up a 1028 00:57:57,251 --> 00:57:58,781 stall and running the issues. 1029 00:57:58,781 --> 00:58:00,551 Like we saw this past winter. 1030 00:58:01,151 --> 00:58:05,231 I, I do realize we're kind of up for time and I, and I just want to say thank you 1031 00:58:05,231 --> 00:58:05,501 both. 1032 00:58:05,501 --> 00:58:06,791 I know Walter we've gone over. 1033 00:58:06,791 --> 00:58:08,491 So Walter, Steve, thank you so much. 1034 00:58:08,491 --> 00:58:12,191 We'll have to have you guys on again soon and, really enjoyed this conversation 1035 00:58:12,191 --> 00:58:13,021 today. 1036 00:58:13,298 --> 00:58:17,238 Thanks, Chase Good night. 1037 00:58:17,745 --> 00:58:18,499 Thank you. 1038 00:58:23,659 --> 00:58:27,059 Thank you for listening to this episode of the grid connections podcast. 1039 00:58:27,059 --> 00:58:30,759 We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Steve briquette founder of plug and play 1040 00:58:30,759 --> 00:58:34,309 EV and Walter Schulze, the host of the network architect channel. 1041 00:58:34,309 --> 00:58:36,879 I also recommend checking out their live episodes. 1042 00:58:36,879 --> 00:58:40,409 They stream every other week, recapping highlights of the EV space. 1043 00:58:40,409 --> 00:58:44,639 You can find links to their YouTube channels and more in today's show notes. 1044 00:58:44,639 --> 00:58:47,959 If you found this episode informative and enjoyable, please share it with at least 1045 00:58:47,959 --> 00:58:50,519 one other person who might appreciate it as well. 1046 00:58:50,519 --> 00:58:53,003 Your support and spreading the word means a lot to us. 1047 00:58:53,003 --> 00:58:56,093 And don't forget to leave a positive review on our podcast page. 1048 00:58:56,093 --> 00:59:00,193 It really helps us continue bringing you quality content until next week. 1049 00:59:00,193 --> 00:59:02,694 This is the grid connections podcast signing