WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:04.040 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:09.680 have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they 00:00:09.680 --> 00:00:13.888 got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. 00:00:14.032 --> 00:00:18.839 How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, 00:00:19.169 --> 00:00:21.689 and most importantly, find joy. 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.259 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:24.373 --> 00:00:27.463 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:27.468 --> 00:00:31.456 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:31.456 --> 00:00:37.074 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:37.074 --> 00:00:39.204 Welcome back to Live Free Ride Free. 00:00:39.304 --> 00:00:44.704 I've got possibly the one of the most, without a doubt, one of the 00:00:44.704 --> 00:00:46.234 most interesting people I've ever met. 00:00:46.674 --> 00:00:47.894 It's Craig Foster. 00:00:48.384 --> 00:00:54.294 If you haven't watched the movie My Octopus Teacher, then you're 00:00:54.304 --> 00:00:56.894 lucky because you have a great, great treat in store for you. 00:00:57.534 --> 00:00:58.414 He's a filmmaker. 00:00:58.494 --> 00:00:59.164 He's an author. 00:00:59.734 --> 00:01:00.604 He's an activist. 00:01:00.834 --> 00:01:03.194 He's an activist on behalf of nature. 00:01:03.794 --> 00:01:04.264 And. 00:01:05.404 --> 00:01:07.494 really the planet and our own species. 00:01:07.644 --> 00:01:09.234 He's made numerous films. 00:01:10.219 --> 00:01:13.739 worked with indigenous cultures all over the world, won thousands of awards, 00:01:13.739 --> 00:01:15.079 blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. 00:01:15.079 --> 00:01:15.469 Sure. 00:01:15.939 --> 00:01:19.829 And he's also just written a book and it's a really good book. 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:23.289 And I'm going to let him talk about this book and what it 00:01:23.289 --> 00:01:24.839 means for us as a species. 00:01:25.434 --> 00:01:26.364 But it's a book you've got to read. 00:01:26.404 --> 00:01:27.384 I just read it. 00:01:27.784 --> 00:01:29.844 So Craig Foster, hello. 00:01:30.894 --> 00:01:33.334 Tell us who you are and tell us about this book. 00:01:34.574 --> 00:01:36.464 Craig Foster: Wonderful to be with you, Rupert. 00:01:36.574 --> 00:01:40.684 So great to be talking to you and we've known each other for a long time. 00:01:40.684 --> 00:01:43.174 So it's just great to be with you again. 00:01:45.074 --> 00:01:46.874 Thanks for the wonderful introduction. 00:01:47.564 --> 00:01:52.174 My book is called Amphibious Soul, Finding the Wild in a Tame World. 00:01:55.349 --> 00:02:02.809 And I, I spent the last 12 years diving every day in the great African sea forest. 00:02:03.489 --> 00:02:07.619 And I've been privileged enough to build these relationships 00:02:07.619 --> 00:02:09.259 with a lot of different animals. 00:02:11.449 --> 00:02:13.509 And after many years with them. 00:02:14.899 --> 00:02:18.279 I, they started to teach me and change me. 00:02:18.279 --> 00:02:25.839 And I had this really strong sense that as humans, we were living these double lives. 00:02:27.319 --> 00:02:31.459 And I called the one life or almost, I can almost sense that 00:02:31.659 --> 00:02:35.279 inside of each of us, there's this wild person and this tame person. 00:02:36.004 --> 00:02:40.614 And the tame person I see as related to all the wonderful comforts 00:02:40.614 --> 00:02:42.484 and technology that we all enjoy. 00:02:42.494 --> 00:02:45.784 And I certainly indulge in a lot of those and enjoy them. 00:02:47.544 --> 00:02:52.174 And then this incredible wild person that remembers. 00:02:53.844 --> 00:02:59.844 3 million years of extraordinary wild memories of our genus on this 00:02:59.854 --> 00:03:07.574 planet, and then more recently, 300, 000 years living as Homo sapiens, 98 00:03:07.574 --> 00:03:12.204 percent of that time fully wild in a very sophisticated, powerful way. 00:03:13.329 --> 00:03:17.919 And I sensed that the balance between the wild and the tame person was way off. 00:03:17.989 --> 00:03:22.799 We said a smothering, this beautiful wild person in all of us with the tame. 00:03:23.209 --> 00:03:27.789 So I was interested in exploring that and learning from these incredible 00:03:27.789 --> 00:03:33.969 animals, learning from my indigenous teachers learning from science and human 00:03:33.969 --> 00:03:40.364 origins, and try to put a story together that, you know, could be made a case 00:03:40.364 --> 00:03:47.034 for getting this beautiful wild person to, to come out more in, in many of us, 00:03:47.334 --> 00:03:50.934 Rupert Isaacson: you know, obviously you're preaching to the converted here. 00:03:50.994 --> 00:03:51.634 I. 00:03:52.329 --> 00:03:56.089 am a great believer in the need for the rewilding of the human soul. 00:03:56.509 --> 00:04:01.719 I feel that that's at the root of the despair, which I think has 00:04:02.379 --> 00:04:07.889 overtaken our culture, but also it's the light that can lead us out of it. 00:04:08.139 --> 00:04:11.639 What's interesting about the title of your book though, amphibious, amphibious 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:17.119 soul, not just wild soul, just rewilding, not, you know, getting in touch with 00:04:17.129 --> 00:04:18.569 the ancestor or hunter gatherer. 00:04:19.329 --> 00:04:20.089 Amphibious. 00:04:20.089 --> 00:04:21.239 It's very specific. 00:04:21.979 --> 00:04:22.519 Why? 00:04:24.129 --> 00:04:24.399 Craig Foster: Yeah. 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:25.809 That's a great question. 00:04:25.889 --> 00:04:26.639 I mean, I, 00:04:29.859 --> 00:04:32.959 I literally from the first day I was born, I went into the ocean. 00:04:32.969 --> 00:04:39.299 My parents took me in on the very first day I was born and we lived in the half 00:04:39.299 --> 00:04:40.989 the house was in the intertidal zone. 00:04:40.989 --> 00:04:44.879 So my whole life has been one of ocean. 00:04:45.009 --> 00:04:46.749 And even my mom. 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:51.639 You know, when I was, she was pregnant, would go in diving three or four 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:53.509 times a week while I was in her belly. 00:04:53.739 --> 00:05:00.879 So, diving in the ocean and water is a big part of my life and that's 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:02.949 where I've found true wildness. 00:05:03.489 --> 00:05:06.819 So that's what I use, but it doesn't mean that, you know, 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:09.289 Other people have to do that. 00:05:09.289 --> 00:05:13.649 So I was interested in this amphibious nature that we have. 00:05:13.649 --> 00:05:17.539 So many people are drawn to water and we are in crit. 00:05:17.569 --> 00:05:23.179 I mean, compared to most animals on land, we pretty useless, we slow, we 00:05:23.179 --> 00:05:28.079 weak, but in the water, we actually surprisingly good, we can outdive. 00:05:28.454 --> 00:05:32.424 Almost every land animal and outswim them. 00:05:32.944 --> 00:05:37.784 So we have this incredible amphibious nature as humans. 00:05:38.284 --> 00:05:40.664 And I've, you know, I'm just, 00:05:43.444 --> 00:05:46.734 I've felt that pull to the water so strongly. 00:05:46.734 --> 00:05:49.814 And I know many people who've had that and it's a push as well. 00:05:49.814 --> 00:05:53.134 It's a, it's a pull and there's fear associated with this as well. 00:05:54.444 --> 00:05:57.824 Rupert Isaacson: You know, you're from South Africa and the ocean for those 00:05:57.824 --> 00:06:03.274 listeners who don't know that part of the world, the ocean that Craig is talking 00:06:03.274 --> 00:06:07.504 about is the down right at the bottom of the Cape of Good Hope on the Atlantic 00:06:07.504 --> 00:06:11.954 side or which really divides actually the Atlantic from the Indian Ocean 00:06:12.154 --> 00:06:16.814 because it's wild, it's cold water, it's mountains to the sea, it's rough it's 00:06:16.814 --> 00:06:22.359 not necessarily an inviting ocean when you look at it from the outside and my 00:06:22.359 --> 00:06:27.169 family's also partly from down that way and so I've spent bits of time along that 00:06:27.169 --> 00:06:33.869 coast and I'm intimidated, you know, and I know that there's quite great whites off. 00:06:33.869 --> 00:06:35.459 In fact, I had a cousin who was taken by one. 00:06:35.999 --> 00:06:41.769 And so I'm always intrigued when I see people, there's obviously a big surfing 00:06:41.769 --> 00:06:50.659 culture there, but when I see people able to commit their frail bodies to this. 00:06:53.144 --> 00:06:56.424 On the face of it, quite hostile looking ocean. 00:06:56.744 --> 00:06:58.724 It's not the calm Mediterranean. 00:06:59.454 --> 00:07:02.224 It's, it's, it's scary. 00:07:02.674 --> 00:07:05.304 I would, you know, I would be scared to go in. 00:07:05.914 --> 00:07:08.424 Tell us about that. 00:07:08.894 --> 00:07:09.844 Why 00:07:12.784 --> 00:07:20.034 does that sea with those rough ways breaking on the rocks and why do you not 00:07:20.034 --> 00:07:23.304 feel I will be broken upon those rocks? 00:07:24.104 --> 00:07:27.524 What makes you feel, yeah, I can go in there? 00:07:28.179 --> 00:07:31.479 And I can thrive and actually make this my home 00:07:33.649 --> 00:07:35.549 and how much I mean, I do that. 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:39.909 Craig Foster: I mean, as you, you're right in that it is the Cape of storms. 00:07:39.909 --> 00:07:45.039 I think they're more shipwrecks here than in, than in most places. 00:07:45.579 --> 00:07:49.039 And it's very much about getting to know the ocean. 00:07:49.679 --> 00:07:56.529 And you know, know her moods, you know, on, when there's a big Atlantic swell 00:07:56.529 --> 00:08:01.349 coming in, you know, you're not going to choose that part that's just, you know, 00:08:02.899 --> 00:08:07.949 directly open to that, unless you into big wave surfing or something like that. 00:08:08.019 --> 00:08:12.879 Or unless you want a really wild swim, which we sometimes do, but by watching 00:08:12.949 --> 00:08:18.409 very closely, I mean, a lot of the places I'm choosing are in protected bays. 00:08:18.934 --> 00:08:23.004 I'm watching the swell, I'm watching the tides sometimes even 00:08:23.014 --> 00:08:28.044 diving on, you know, extreme days in very shallow protected water. 00:08:28.704 --> 00:08:35.034 Sometimes I do like, you know, swimming between those, those rocks and then 00:08:35.034 --> 00:08:40.034 these giant waves are crashing against the rocks and like literally, you know, 00:08:40.054 --> 00:08:42.464 breaking over the rocks over my head. 00:08:42.474 --> 00:08:46.194 And, but I know the little areas so well that there are these big ones. 00:08:46.764 --> 00:08:48.034 Pockets of safety. 00:08:48.494 --> 00:08:51.794 And that only comes from going many, many, many times. 00:08:52.134 --> 00:08:56.444 So I could take you there and you'd probably depending on your level of 00:08:56.444 --> 00:09:00.574 comfort in the water and your ability to relax, probably be, be fine. 00:09:00.584 --> 00:09:04.694 As soon as you tense or Get scared. 00:09:04.694 --> 00:09:05.834 Then it's a different story. 00:09:05.834 --> 00:09:08.594 And I've almost lost a few people like that. 00:09:08.594 --> 00:09:10.474 It's amazing how it can change. 00:09:10.844 --> 00:09:15.614 So I have, you know, I can go with my son who's been diving with me since, you know, 00:09:15.624 --> 00:09:20.654 very, very young and we can swim in these, what looks like an impossible ocean. 00:09:21.089 --> 00:09:26.579 And it's perfectly safe, but then the ocean can look quite similar, 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:30.479 but it's changed and then it's incredibly dangerous for us. 00:09:30.829 --> 00:09:35.219 So you have to know the difference and sometimes it can be quite subtle. 00:09:35.229 --> 00:09:38.629 So, and I don't always get it right, but most, most of the time. 00:09:38.839 --> 00:09:43.619 Mostly now I can read it and know when it's safe and when it's not and it depends 00:09:43.619 --> 00:09:49.239 on someone like say if you if you're not used to it, then you start in the tidal 00:09:49.239 --> 00:09:55.219 pools, you get your strength up, you swim, you get used to going down, you used 00:09:55.499 --> 00:09:59.549 to holding your breath, you get used to water in your mouth, swallowing water in 00:09:59.549 --> 00:10:01.319 your nose, you just get used to all that. 00:10:01.599 --> 00:10:05.739 And you slowly venture out, you go out on the calm days. 00:10:06.084 --> 00:10:10.064 Then you go out on the medium days, then you practice body surfing and 00:10:10.244 --> 00:10:14.584 dealing with waves and you just slowly, you know, get to know her. 00:10:18.514 --> 00:10:21.514 Rupert Isaacson: I do believe that we have an amphibious 00:10:21.514 --> 00:10:26.074 soul for evolutionary reasons. 00:10:26.114 --> 00:10:28.964 You're living there on the Cape of Good Hope. 00:10:29.304 --> 00:10:33.304 It's one of the earliest places of human settlement that we know of. 00:10:33.884 --> 00:10:36.994 You know, there are, there are archeological, pre 00:10:36.994 --> 00:10:38.204 archeological sites there. 00:10:38.584 --> 00:10:42.984 Going back hundreds of thousands of years, it always seems to be, you know, a bit of 00:10:42.984 --> 00:10:47.384 a rivalry going on between Southern Africa and East Africa about which is the cradle 00:10:47.384 --> 00:10:51.064 of mankind, but we know it's, it's there. 00:10:51.644 --> 00:10:58.689 And it seems that all the earliest settlement sites, Our coastal and to 00:10:58.689 --> 00:11:03.139 me that would make sense because well, that's where the most food is, right? 00:11:03.139 --> 00:11:05.119 You've got food from the land food from the water. 00:11:05.469 --> 00:11:09.189 There's a beach You've got a long sight line perhaps may be more difficult for 00:11:09.449 --> 00:11:12.839 predators to creep up on you I don't know But if there's more abundance does 00:11:12.839 --> 00:11:18.049 that give you more time for culture more time for nature more time to create art 00:11:18.129 --> 00:11:23.039 To have conversation and to sort of do the things that we think of as civilized 00:11:23.109 --> 00:11:26.959 which we know that hunter gatherer people do as well Do you think that we have? 00:11:26.969 --> 00:11:32.074 You That our soul is amphibious because we've actually evolved next in this 00:11:32.074 --> 00:11:36.794 margin of land and water and perhaps then gone up from Africa into the rest of the 00:11:36.794 --> 00:11:40.924 world, following the coast, following the rivers, following the water courses. 00:11:41.509 --> 00:11:45.439 So are we in fact an amphibious ape, you know, or, or certainly have been 00:11:45.439 --> 00:11:47.109 for hundreds of thousands of years. 00:11:47.739 --> 00:11:50.669 And at what point do you think we became amphibious? 00:11:52.959 --> 00:11:56.509 Craig Foster: I mean, I think you could I agree with you that, I mean, 00:11:56.509 --> 00:12:00.529 there are a lot of incredible coastal sites a few of which I've been able 00:12:00.529 --> 00:12:05.309 to, you know, study thanks to the amazing scientists that I've worked with 00:12:05.929 --> 00:12:08.279 but there also are equivalent sites. 00:12:09.744 --> 00:12:16.574 But certainly, I mean, if you just take this idea, you are now living on the coast 00:12:16.984 --> 00:12:21.254 and, you know, one of the big things, as you know, a hunter gatherers need is 00:12:21.804 --> 00:12:23.974 protein and they need, especially fat. 00:12:24.704 --> 00:12:28.874 So you're walking along the coast and the, you know, the common thing for a whale 00:12:28.874 --> 00:12:32.554 to be washed up, that's 20 tons of fat. 00:12:33.149 --> 00:12:35.789 Delivered to you with no energy. 00:12:35.889 --> 00:12:42.239 I mean, it's just 20 tons of meat, 20 tons of fat. 00:12:42.709 --> 00:12:44.949 I mean, it's just incredible feast. 00:12:45.379 --> 00:12:48.859 And then you've got all the carbohydrates on the land. 00:12:49.239 --> 00:12:52.959 You've got all your shellfish, you've got all your other fish, you've got your You 00:12:52.959 --> 00:12:54.959 know, all the terrestrial food as well. 00:12:54.959 --> 00:12:56.039 So absolutely. 00:12:56.499 --> 00:13:02.419 And we see in the archeological remains a tremendous amount of shellfish. 00:13:02.794 --> 00:13:07.984 And you see evidence of the whales, actually the barnacles that grow on the 00:13:07.984 --> 00:13:11.204 whales you see in the archaeological sites so you can determine the 00:13:11.204 --> 00:13:14.964 exact species they've been eating because only certain barnacles 00:13:14.984 --> 00:13:16.684 grow on certain species of whales. 00:13:17.384 --> 00:13:19.084 But you can go back a lot further. 00:13:19.134 --> 00:13:25.094 I mean, it, it appears that Homo erectus was highly amphibious and actually did 00:13:25.094 --> 00:13:27.604 some pretty massive ocean crossings. 00:13:28.154 --> 00:13:30.334 There is some evidence to suggest that. 00:13:30.914 --> 00:13:35.964 So, you know, if you are moving as a nomadic hunter gatherer, which we've 00:13:35.964 --> 00:13:42.104 done for a very, very long time, even before Homo sapiens came into being, 00:13:42.494 --> 00:13:45.764 you're walking along a coast or any area and there's suddenly a river. 00:13:46.499 --> 00:13:51.789 It's so much easier to cross that river than to now, you know, walk miles and 00:13:51.789 --> 00:13:53.659 miles up to find somewhere where you can. 00:13:54.169 --> 00:13:58.049 If you're gathering food by the ocean and you can't swim, and a 00:13:58.049 --> 00:13:59.689 wave takes you out, you're dead. 00:13:59.719 --> 00:14:03.629 It's such a survival advantage to be able to swim. 00:14:04.769 --> 00:14:08.769 We would have seen other animals swimming, and we have very curious species. 00:14:08.809 --> 00:14:12.129 We would have certainly I think, learned to swim and dive. 00:14:13.254 --> 00:14:18.444 We've got quite a good evidence for Neanderthals diving 90, 000 years ago. 00:14:19.194 --> 00:14:23.074 What we're seeing in the caves here suggests strongly that people were 00:14:23.124 --> 00:14:28.414 diving, were probably diving and probably swimming more than 100, 000 years ago. 00:14:28.994 --> 00:14:33.854 And I think this aquatic nature, this amphibious part of our being probably 00:14:33.854 --> 00:14:39.374 extends way back into Homo erectus and the early parts of our evolution. 00:14:39.674 --> 00:14:42.409 Rupert Isaacson: But those people who aren't non, the non divers. 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:47.329 Paleontologists amongst us, can you give us a date on Homo erectus? 00:14:47.349 --> 00:14:48.429 When would we be talking? 00:14:49.109 --> 00:14:50.299 Craig Foster: Two million years ago. 00:14:50.949 --> 00:14:53.769 Rupert Isaacson: And when you say ocean crossings, how would they be doing that? 00:14:53.869 --> 00:14:54.939 How are they? 00:14:55.059 --> 00:14:56.689 Are they building at that point? 00:14:56.689 --> 00:14:57.239 Surely not. 00:14:57.299 --> 00:14:58.059 So how are they? 00:14:58.249 --> 00:15:00.509 Craig Foster: Yeah, probably going getting, you know, big 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:02.564 logs, big pieces of wood. 00:15:02.894 --> 00:15:08.324 Somehow you know, I must've had some knowledge of currents, wind at it's, yeah, 00:15:08.324 --> 00:15:10.264 I was stunned when I read about this. 00:15:10.264 --> 00:15:10.584 You know 00:15:11.054 --> 00:15:13.284 Rupert Isaacson: where they were doing this, that they've, where, where 00:15:13.284 --> 00:15:14.454 have they found evidence of this? 00:15:15.619 --> 00:15:18.919 Craig Foster: I'm trying to, I can't remember the exact spot. 00:15:18.959 --> 00:15:20.109 I'd have to look it up again. 00:15:20.109 --> 00:15:24.919 It's a while since I've seen it, but it's seemed to be you know, that they couldn't 00:15:24.929 --> 00:15:27.459 have got across at that time period. 00:15:27.459 --> 00:15:32.759 We know these massive fluctuations in the coastline and it, it appears 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:34.919 that they, they, they crossed. 00:15:35.409 --> 00:15:38.999 I can't remember how long ago, I mean, Homo erectus came into 00:15:38.999 --> 00:15:40.759 existence 2 million years ago. 00:15:40.769 --> 00:15:41.479 And then I think. 00:15:43.329 --> 00:15:46.589 A few hundred years, a thousand years ago you know, became extinct. 00:15:46.619 --> 00:15:49.229 So it was somewhere during that time, maybe 800, 000 00:15:49.229 --> 00:15:50.519 years ago, I can't remember. 00:15:50.609 --> 00:15:52.029 It's funny, actually, I'm 00:15:52.029 --> 00:15:55.219 Rupert Isaacson: just doing a quick Google on it because I'm, I'm intrigued by this. 00:15:55.929 --> 00:16:00.569 Um, because I think I, like a lot of people have, have assumed, right, that 00:16:01.289 --> 00:16:02.969 we would have been the first navigators. 00:16:03.019 --> 00:16:04.119 And you're, you're, look, you're right. 00:16:04.119 --> 00:16:07.299 I've, I've found here in, Thing on the Guardian. 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:09.959 Um, Homo erectus may have been a sailor. 00:16:11.119 --> 00:16:14.219 Um, and I had no idea. 00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:19.089 Fossil Homo erectus have turned up not only in Southern Europe, but as 00:16:19.089 --> 00:16:20.739 far afield as China and Indonesia. 00:16:21.429 --> 00:16:23.209 Craig Foster: I could have been Indonesia at that. 00:16:23.209 --> 00:16:23.479 Yeah. 00:16:23.479 --> 00:16:24.259 Oceans, oceans, 00:16:25.139 --> 00:16:27.939 Rupert Isaacson: says it oceans were never a barrier to the travels of erectus. 00:16:32.489 --> 00:16:35.509 Sorry, that's my, my infantile humor just comes out there. 00:16:36.709 --> 00:16:39.409 Oceans were never a barrier to the travels of Erectus. 00:16:39.979 --> 00:16:42.079 He traveled all over the world, traveled to the island of Flores. 00:16:42.129 --> 00:16:42.649 Well, right. 00:16:42.859 --> 00:16:46.729 So if they are pre human humanoids doing this, then yeah, 00:16:46.729 --> 00:16:47.769 then we must be amphibious. 00:16:47.999 --> 00:16:51.499 And it's interesting too, to me that you know, if you take pretty 00:16:51.499 --> 00:16:55.929 much, Anyone, I'd say it's the vast majority of the population. 00:16:56.259 --> 00:16:59.439 And so where do you want to go on vacation when you want to go and relax? 00:16:59.719 --> 00:17:01.369 You want to feel like you're most authentic? 00:17:01.549 --> 00:17:02.489 Where's your happy place? 00:17:02.489 --> 00:17:03.729 Most people will say the beach. 00:17:04.404 --> 00:17:09.984 Most people will gravitate to a beach holiday, and as soon as they take 00:17:09.984 --> 00:17:13.144 their shoes off and their bare feet are in the sand, let alone before they 00:17:13.144 --> 00:17:17.324 get in the water, that seems to be the nervous system reset, doesn't it? 00:17:17.364 --> 00:17:20.824 The kind of, ah, moment, the exhalation. 00:17:21.334 --> 00:17:26.534 So, but it's, you, you, to my knowledge, are the first person who's written a 00:17:26.534 --> 00:17:29.414 book drawing our attention to this. 00:17:29.604 --> 00:17:31.204 What do you think it does to us? 00:17:32.454 --> 00:17:39.544 To then be removed from this amphibious life. 00:17:42.074 --> 00:17:43.174 Craig Foster: I mean, I think that 00:17:43.374 --> 00:17:48.264 where I see it, I see it like this Rupert, is that, you know, for this 00:17:48.444 --> 00:17:55.119 incredibly long time period, we've had these, deep relationships with 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.089 so many animals, with so many plants. 00:17:58.609 --> 00:17:58.629 Rupert Isaacson: So 00:17:58.639 --> 00:18:01.589 Craig Foster: even even as you know, you know, you've worked with a sign 00:18:01.639 --> 00:18:05.729 fairly young child starts to develop quite strong relationships with the 00:18:05.729 --> 00:18:07.209 wild and with all these animals. 00:18:07.229 --> 00:18:11.789 As a person gets older, there are these threads going out into the wild 00:18:11.789 --> 00:18:13.879 and these incredible bonds build. 00:18:14.464 --> 00:18:17.384 And these get passed down from generation to generation. 00:18:17.384 --> 00:18:22.294 So you've got this amazing network going out from your being to 00:18:22.294 --> 00:18:24.614 these animals, to these plants. 00:18:25.184 --> 00:18:28.854 Now it's almost, I can always imagine a huge pair of shears just 00:18:28.854 --> 00:18:30.344 coming in and cutting that off. 00:18:31.044 --> 00:18:33.234 What does that do to the psyche? 00:18:33.274 --> 00:18:38.384 I mean, and, and what do we replace that with is her relationship 00:18:38.384 --> 00:18:40.224 with a cell phone and a computer. 00:18:40.224 --> 00:18:40.264 Yeah. 00:18:40.954 --> 00:18:45.044 And of course, those people have an amazing, you know, social network. 00:18:45.664 --> 00:18:50.244 They in the wild having these amazing experience with their, with their group. 00:18:51.174 --> 00:18:53.484 And often people today don't have that. 00:18:53.494 --> 00:18:57.204 They have maybe some friends in that, but they're not having 00:18:57.204 --> 00:19:02.594 these powerful experiences in a wild landscape with those people. 00:19:02.934 --> 00:19:02.954 Rupert Isaacson: So 00:19:02.954 --> 00:19:04.404 Craig Foster: it, it, it. 00:19:04.909 --> 00:19:10.199 It has a massive traumatic effect on the psyche, in my mind, this is what 00:19:10.219 --> 00:19:12.749 every person who's born is expecting. 00:19:12.829 --> 00:19:17.799 And we haven't had a chance to change yet, expecting a wild existence, expecting 00:19:18.069 --> 00:19:24.119 a relationship with masses of different creatures and all sorts of other things. 00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:26.099 And then that doesn't materialize. 00:19:26.349 --> 00:19:27.059 It is. 00:19:27.834 --> 00:19:33.694 Unconsciously very disturbing and I think as you mentioned earlier, it, I think 00:19:33.694 --> 00:19:38.494 it's definitely connected to this pandemic of mental health that we're seeing now. 00:19:39.534 --> 00:19:40.264 Rupert Isaacson: I would agree. 00:19:40.294 --> 00:19:44.144 I sort of feel, honestly, it's not possible in our culture 00:19:44.144 --> 00:19:45.254 to not be mentally ill. 00:19:45.864 --> 00:19:47.164 I mean, I think I'm mentally ill. 00:19:47.194 --> 00:19:49.524 I think most people I know are mentally ill. 00:19:49.524 --> 00:19:52.474 And what I mean by that is they're not lacking in any way. 00:19:53.044 --> 00:19:53.204 They're not. 00:19:53.204 --> 00:19:53.294 I don't know. 00:19:53.969 --> 00:19:59.279 There's no deficit other than nature deficit that I think, I think that 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:08.699 we're all suffering from a, the trauma of being like zoo animals, just not 00:20:08.709 --> 00:20:11.819 living in the environment that our organism, as you said, is expecting 00:20:11.819 --> 00:20:17.379 or needs or is designed for, but yet, which we have cleverly constructed 00:20:17.379 --> 00:20:22.529 for ourselves a very nice cage with, you know, Alexa to tell us what to do. 00:20:23.089 --> 00:20:25.299 But it seems to make us desperately unhappy. 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:31.119 And then if we are coming out of, you know, generation upon generation upon 00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:36.519 generation of immediate ancestors who were also cut off from nature, we can't 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:38.269 even know what it is that ails us. 00:20:38.269 --> 00:20:40.539 We can't even know what it is we need. 00:20:42.949 --> 00:20:48.579 Not everyone can live in the intertidal zone on the Cape of Good Hope. 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:53.789 Obviously, a lot of people live in not that. 00:20:53.919 --> 00:21:08.604 How do you think People can basically rewild themselves while still having 00:21:08.604 --> 00:21:14.084 to, you know, maintain the livelihoods and living conditions that they're in. 00:21:14.424 --> 00:21:16.034 How can they, how can they begin? 00:21:16.804 --> 00:21:18.634 And maybe they don't even have access to the ocean. 00:21:18.884 --> 00:21:20.564 How can, how can they begin? 00:21:22.084 --> 00:21:26.164 Craig Foster: So, I'm glad you asked that question because now recently, you 00:21:26.234 --> 00:21:32.594 know, I've had this privileged experience of, as I said, you know, living this 00:21:32.594 --> 00:21:36.254 life here and for the last 12 years, literally every day going in the water. 00:21:37.104 --> 00:21:43.419 But in the last while I spent a month traveling to speak about my 00:21:43.419 --> 00:21:48.339 book in America to all the, a lot of the big cities and to England. 00:21:49.889 --> 00:21:56.689 So I actually tried to test out and see if I could access the same state 00:21:56.699 --> 00:21:59.449 of mind in New York and in London. 00:22:00.859 --> 00:22:04.069 And what I tried to do is what I've developed is the 00:22:04.069 --> 00:22:05.899 system of underwater tracking. 00:22:05.959 --> 00:22:10.354 I was inspired by the song in the Kalahari, they Taught me the 00:22:10.364 --> 00:22:13.864 essence of tracking, you know, had these incredible master trackers. 00:22:14.244 --> 00:22:17.364 So I taught myself to track underwater and that's, I got to know a lot 00:22:17.364 --> 00:22:18.914 of the animals in the kelp forest. 00:22:19.324 --> 00:22:24.424 So what I tried to do was like, okay, can I actually do this in these cities? 00:22:24.424 --> 00:22:30.284 And I purposely, I didn't go to central park or to a nice park in London. 00:22:30.284 --> 00:22:34.184 I went to the harshest places where those terrifying tall buildings are. 00:22:35.244 --> 00:22:36.794 And at first I was like. 00:22:37.259 --> 00:22:38.999 It was just nothing. 00:22:38.999 --> 00:22:41.459 I felt that it was impossible. 00:22:41.459 --> 00:22:44.289 And I was, you know, um, 00:22:46.789 --> 00:22:49.439 yeah, felt I felt not good at all. 00:22:49.689 --> 00:22:53.379 And then I just started to try and get into that same 00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:55.519 mode and really concentrate. 00:22:55.959 --> 00:22:58.519 And I was lucky in New York, I had a little bit of help. 00:22:58.969 --> 00:23:00.089 It had been raining. 00:23:00.924 --> 00:23:05.284 And there were puddles and this cold concrete, and they started to, 00:23:05.324 --> 00:23:10.114 people started to, people and dogs and animals were walking everywhere, 00:23:10.114 --> 00:23:13.594 and they were actually leaving these incredibly clear tracks on the concrete. 00:23:13.974 --> 00:23:19.134 So that really got me excited, and I could see how people were moving, I 00:23:19.134 --> 00:23:24.144 could see from their soles of their shoes, I got a sense of how fast they 00:23:24.144 --> 00:23:28.699 were moving, but also How wealthy they were, how much their shoes had worn 00:23:28.699 --> 00:23:32.059 down how strong they were, the dogs. 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:34.529 It was very interesting to see where the dogs were moving. 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:37.549 They were very interested in the smells all along the edge. 00:23:38.049 --> 00:23:40.039 I then started tracking some rats. 00:23:40.619 --> 00:23:43.259 I started tracking the, the birds. 00:23:43.709 --> 00:23:48.279 And I even started tracking the, the chewing gum where people 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:49.489 had dropped the chewing gum. 00:23:50.949 --> 00:23:54.259 These wear patterns, there were some fascinating tracks that I had no 00:23:54.259 --> 00:23:58.309 idea what they were at first and took quite a while to, to figure them out. 00:23:58.309 --> 00:24:01.499 They actually turned out to be baby strollers, a very 00:24:01.499 --> 00:24:03.479 strange track that they leave. 00:24:04.749 --> 00:24:08.979 And after about an hour, I got into, I was suddenly. 00:24:09.439 --> 00:24:13.199 looked up almost expecting to see the kelp canopy above me. 00:24:13.629 --> 00:24:19.179 I was in the same mode, that deep nature detective mode that comes with tracking. 00:24:19.659 --> 00:24:23.069 And I'd, I'd seen some, I was obviously largely tracking 00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:24.849 humans, but we are an animal. 00:24:25.549 --> 00:24:28.979 And I was quite fascinated by the rats and how the birds were 00:24:29.009 --> 00:24:30.579 alarm calling for the rats. 00:24:31.159 --> 00:24:32.309 And this was just an hour. 00:24:32.329 --> 00:24:36.589 I knew that if I stayed there, I could uncover a lot of 00:24:36.589 --> 00:24:39.469 incredible probably wild animals. 00:24:39.769 --> 00:24:44.629 Or domesticated semi domesticated wild animals surviving in that environment. 00:24:44.639 --> 00:24:50.249 And I could most importantly replicate that oldest language on earth, that 00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:56.109 feeling of pattern recognition that you get with tracking in London. 00:24:56.109 --> 00:24:59.039 It was far more radical that cause it's an old city. 00:24:59.399 --> 00:25:03.139 I was looking at the tooth marks of animals all over the sidewalks. 00:25:03.139 --> 00:25:08.079 They turned out to be slugs, fascinating shapes created by their, their. 00:25:08.719 --> 00:25:10.029 Rupert Isaacson: What does the slug tooth mark look like? 00:25:10.919 --> 00:25:12.289 How do you know what it is? 00:25:12.959 --> 00:25:17.629 Craig Foster: That, so every mollusk has a radula, which is a toothed tongue. 00:25:18.449 --> 00:25:23.339 So I could recognize the tracks instantly because they were the same type of tracks 00:25:23.369 --> 00:25:27.729 as the limpets, which is also a mollusk, leave on the kelp in the kelp forest. 00:25:28.109 --> 00:25:34.869 So these slugs were feeding on the microalgae that grows along the pavements 00:25:35.049 --> 00:25:39.339 and leaving these magnificent patterns of their toothed tongues and now 00:25:39.339 --> 00:25:41.659 followed this little silvery trails. 00:25:41.659 --> 00:25:42.849 That's, that's 00:25:42.929 --> 00:25:44.669 Rupert Isaacson: what the trail of goo is. 00:25:45.199 --> 00:25:46.444 It's from the toothed tongue. 00:25:47.239 --> 00:25:47.459 Craig Foster: No. 00:25:47.464 --> 00:25:47.574 No. 00:25:47.664 --> 00:25:47.964 Okay. 00:25:47.994 --> 00:25:50.824 So the the body leaves the, the trail of goo. 00:25:50.884 --> 00:25:51.214 Okay. 00:25:51.274 --> 00:25:53.674 And the, and the, if you look more closely, you'll 00:25:53.674 --> 00:25:55.594 see these incredible shapes. 00:25:56.054 --> 00:25:57.284 I can send you a picture. 00:25:57.494 --> 00:25:57.854 I'd love that. 00:25:57.864 --> 00:26:02.024 That the, that the, the, the teeth leave and as soon as you 00:26:02.024 --> 00:26:04.454 notice it, it's just incredible. 00:26:04.454 --> 00:26:06.284 And I was doing this, yeah, I'm sorry. 00:26:06.339 --> 00:26:06.719 I'm, I'm, 00:26:06.734 --> 00:26:08.504 Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm, I'm suddenly obsessing on this. 00:26:08.954 --> 00:26:11.239 A slug can leave a tooth mark on concrete. 00:26:13.104 --> 00:26:13.844 Craig Foster: Absolutely. 00:26:13.864 --> 00:26:19.914 Because it, the concrete has a thin layer of micro algae that's green on it. 00:26:20.274 --> 00:26:20.584 Rupert Isaacson: And when 00:26:20.584 --> 00:26:23.784 Craig Foster: it scrapes it off, especially if it's painted, there's 00:26:23.784 --> 00:26:26.874 a perfect clear track of the teeth. 00:26:27.424 --> 00:26:31.774 And it, you basically go into the world of these mollusks in the inner city 00:26:31.804 --> 00:26:33.424 and you can see the young feeding. 00:26:33.434 --> 00:26:36.874 You can see the adults, you can see the patterns of the feeding. 00:26:37.424 --> 00:26:38.944 We started tracking squirrels. 00:26:38.944 --> 00:26:41.424 We found where they were, had their, their young. 00:26:41.434 --> 00:26:45.224 We started tracking trees and how they were self cleaning in London. 00:26:45.224 --> 00:26:49.284 And then all the Victorian engravings on the curb stones were fascinating. 00:26:49.674 --> 00:26:52.164 So it, and I can go on and on and on. 00:26:52.174 --> 00:26:57.954 So I could replicate the sense of this oldest language and this connection. 00:26:57.954 --> 00:27:03.234 And of course you can see through the animals, how they're reacting in 00:27:03.234 --> 00:27:07.334 the city, and they're obviously more nervous and so on than they could be. 00:27:09.454 --> 00:27:12.024 It was very interesting to be able to do this. 00:27:12.024 --> 00:27:15.804 And I took other people because and I took certain people who were good 00:27:15.814 --> 00:27:20.064 trackers and people who weren't people who knew nature very well. 00:27:20.064 --> 00:27:21.484 And they were totally blown away. 00:27:21.484 --> 00:27:24.774 They'd never bothered to look in a city like this. 00:27:25.284 --> 00:27:27.394 And they had the same feeling I did. 00:27:27.914 --> 00:27:29.284 So it's apps and they were like. 00:27:29.484 --> 00:27:34.784 You know, I think Jackie Higgins is a very accomplished natural history 00:27:35.174 --> 00:27:41.224 writer, naturalist, and natural history filmmaker said who could, something's 00:27:41.224 --> 00:27:46.994 amazing said here, like I went into this world of nature on a grubby curbstone. 00:27:47.024 --> 00:27:48.014 I couldn't believe it. 00:27:48.114 --> 00:27:49.714 It was that kind of thing. 00:27:49.724 --> 00:27:53.404 And, and it was all the more fascinating because it was 00:27:53.414 --> 00:27:56.424 quite, A challenge to access. 00:27:57.054 --> 00:28:01.014 And that was only, you know, one day in London or one and a half days. 00:28:01.054 --> 00:28:04.724 If you had more time, of course, there are foxes there, many in London, as you 00:28:04.724 --> 00:28:10.944 know, living, you could, it's amazing what you could actually get into and replicate 00:28:10.944 --> 00:28:16.694 this feeling it's about replicating a primal sense of belonging because. 00:28:16.959 --> 00:28:20.319 Tracking is world making, it basically creates your world. 00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:23.629 You put together all these clues like a detective and you 00:28:23.629 --> 00:28:25.789 construct this fascinating world. 00:28:26.529 --> 00:28:30.429 So we walked past, I'll give you an idea, we walked past a cathedral, a thousand 00:28:30.429 --> 00:28:35.529 year old cathedral in London and the entire surface was covered in flintstone. 00:28:36.509 --> 00:28:41.479 Thousands of these pieces and every piece had been napped by a stonemason. 00:28:42.259 --> 00:28:45.189 So of course, you know, for me that was fascinating because 00:28:46.219 --> 00:28:50.929 Flint is made of the spicules of sponges from the ancient ocean. 00:28:51.209 --> 00:28:55.339 And then I had this, you know, the whole flint knapping you know, thing that 00:28:55.339 --> 00:28:57.459 goes back 3 million years in evolution. 00:28:57.459 --> 00:29:00.429 So, you know, you're starting to see all these incredible 00:29:00.429 --> 00:29:03.389 connections inside a major city. 00:29:03.389 --> 00:29:06.469 It, it, it Westminster Cathedral is made 00:29:06.469 --> 00:29:07.529 Rupert Isaacson: from old sea sponges. 00:29:08.964 --> 00:29:11.784 Craig Foster: It was I'm trying, it was what in Westminster I can't 00:29:11.784 --> 00:29:13.434 remember the name of the cathedral. 00:29:14.394 --> 00:29:14.864 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:29:14.914 --> 00:29:16.694 I know, I know a very old one, St. 00:29:17.404 --> 00:29:19.674 Bartholomew's church, which is basically made of flint. 00:29:20.004 --> 00:29:23.324 I didn't know that was, and that's about a thousand years old. 00:29:23.354 --> 00:29:26.124 I didn't know that flint was old sea sponges. 00:29:26.454 --> 00:29:26.824 Craig Foster: Yeah. 00:29:26.904 --> 00:29:27.214 Yeah. 00:29:27.454 --> 00:29:27.654 Rupert Isaacson: Thank you. 00:29:28.614 --> 00:29:30.434 I'll look at it completely differently next time. 00:29:32.154 --> 00:29:38.194 It seems what you're saying, tracking, tracking is the original human activity. 00:29:38.194 --> 00:29:38.214 Okay. 00:29:40.804 --> 00:29:43.544 Therefore tracking is story, right? 00:29:44.184 --> 00:29:46.404 And what are we if not the storytelling ape, right? 00:29:46.404 --> 00:29:51.844 We have the larynx, we, we, you know, other animals sort of vocalize 00:29:51.844 --> 00:29:54.134 and sometimes in very complex ways. 00:29:54.134 --> 00:30:00.374 But I haven't yet read a play written by another mammal. 00:30:00.574 --> 00:30:04.184 I might at one point as we learn to maybe read what whales do better. 00:30:04.584 --> 00:30:06.664 But it seems that that's down to us. 00:30:06.664 --> 00:30:08.314 But yet so many animals do track. 00:30:09.234 --> 00:30:15.234 So, is tracking, is tracking, does tracking help reconnect us with 00:30:15.234 --> 00:30:20.904 ourselves because it is story and we're the storytelling, and also 00:30:20.914 --> 00:30:24.114 it connects us with the wild, because what else is there to track? 00:30:27.154 --> 00:30:28.364 The environment around us. 00:30:29.214 --> 00:30:31.004 Is that, is that what tracking does? 00:30:31.004 --> 00:30:35.284 Is it that dual purpose of reconnecting us both with nature? 00:30:36.274 --> 00:30:40.594 What is outside of ourselves and what and and ourselves at the same time is it? 00:30:40.714 --> 00:30:41.914 Craig Foster: Yes, I think you think you've got it. 00:30:41.924 --> 00:30:45.724 So the the key word here is I think is belonging, 00:30:46.184 --> 00:30:46.754 Rupert Isaacson: right? 00:30:46.894 --> 00:30:51.184 Craig Foster: So what it does is it attunes you and connects 00:30:51.184 --> 00:30:53.344 you to the subtle things? 00:30:54.144 --> 00:30:59.204 That are going on it in your environment and you can also it's almost like 00:30:59.204 --> 00:31:02.294 magic because you can go Into the past. 00:31:02.304 --> 00:31:05.524 So I could see the tracks of those slugs and I knew that they had been 00:31:05.524 --> 00:31:09.884 feeding that night and I could see the paths and everywhere they were, and I 00:31:09.884 --> 00:31:11.644 could predict that they would be back. 00:31:12.204 --> 00:31:17.354 You know, when there was a lot of moisture and that does that algae would grow again, 00:31:17.364 --> 00:31:21.564 so you could look into the past and the future but it connects you to their lives. 00:31:21.674 --> 00:31:25.284 So the act of forcing your mind and pushing your mind into the 00:31:25.284 --> 00:31:29.294 track creates an enormous amount of empathy for that animal. 00:31:30.024 --> 00:31:33.294 You sense the young coming, those little slugs coming out, the young, 00:31:33.634 --> 00:31:37.384 you know, coming out to feed for some of their first days on the planet. 00:31:37.384 --> 00:31:42.654 You see, you know, the, the adults near them, you, you, you, you start 00:31:42.654 --> 00:31:47.114 this incredible act of empathy, but you are creating your whole 00:31:47.124 --> 00:31:50.924 world from these, these signs. 00:31:50.924 --> 00:31:53.574 And that is such an ancient practice. 00:31:53.574 --> 00:31:55.089 It goes to the. 00:31:55.919 --> 00:32:01.499 the heart of the origin of our species and how we managed to survive, 00:32:01.879 --> 00:32:04.029 but also how we built our world. 00:32:04.819 --> 00:32:10.239 So when you replicate that, the ancient being, the wild person in you remembers 00:32:10.529 --> 00:32:15.299 who you are, and it remembers that this is the way of belonging, and this is 00:32:15.299 --> 00:32:18.149 the way of survival, and you feel good. 00:32:18.684 --> 00:32:22.494 You feel good when you connect the dots and you tell the stories of the 00:32:22.494 --> 00:32:26.504 animals that are there laid out for you on the ground in this cryptic way. 00:32:30.524 --> 00:32:32.524 Rupert Isaacson: It seems that what you're talking about here 00:32:32.574 --> 00:32:43.354 is actually a really effective therapeutic practice for mental health. 00:32:45.404 --> 00:32:50.994 You, you know, I could see how learning to do this in an urban environment, 00:32:54.894 --> 00:32:57.654 transform oneself from the inside. 00:32:58.864 --> 00:33:00.694 What one's one's neurology. 00:33:02.289 --> 00:33:06.939 And I could see how that would absolutely be 00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:11.289 an amelioration for say depression or something. 00:33:12.629 --> 00:33:15.339 Craig Foster: Can I just just before I forget this thought, sorry, Rupert, 00:33:15.339 --> 00:33:16.699 you've reminded me of something. 00:33:17.219 --> 00:33:21.589 So normally if I'm in a big city like that, and I haven't remember, 00:33:21.589 --> 00:33:22.909 I'm not used to that at all. 00:33:22.909 --> 00:33:27.579 So, you know, admittedly, I'm not very Used to it, but say in a place 00:33:27.579 --> 00:33:31.759 like New York in the middle of the city there with normally within half 00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:34.759 an hour, I'm absolutely exhausted 00:33:34.819 --> 00:33:35.199 Rupert Isaacson: and 00:33:35.669 --> 00:33:39.619 Craig Foster: my nervous system is a bit shattered after two hours 00:33:39.619 --> 00:33:41.429 of doing the tracking, I felt good 00:33:41.899 --> 00:33:42.019 Rupert Isaacson: and 00:33:43.639 --> 00:33:47.709 Craig Foster: the same with London and it's almost like I got hyper 00:33:47.709 --> 00:33:52.409 focused and the, the, the sounds and everything that normally be kind of 00:33:52.409 --> 00:33:57.179 like an acoustic torture for me, kind of quiet and, and I was able to, it. 00:33:58.089 --> 00:34:00.839 Being a completely different mindset in that space, it 00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:02.479 would normally debilitate me. 00:34:05.989 --> 00:34:08.839 Rupert Isaacson: Really, we should be teaching tracking to 00:34:09.449 --> 00:34:10.629 at risk youth, shouldn't we? 00:34:11.089 --> 00:34:12.069 Well, to anyone. 00:34:12.249 --> 00:34:14.649 It ought to be taught to us in schools. 00:34:19.014 --> 00:34:23.234 Okay, so you mentioned belonging, and you mentioned empathy, 00:34:24.744 --> 00:34:26.514 and story through tracking. 00:34:26.514 --> 00:34:28.324 Tracking builds a world, you said. 00:34:29.114 --> 00:34:33.074 And I remember, for those people listening, if you have not seen 00:34:34.054 --> 00:34:38.764 Craig and his brother Damon's movie, it's a documentary from 20 years 00:34:38.774 --> 00:34:40.024 ago or so, called The Great Dance. 00:34:41.009 --> 00:34:41.359 You got it. 00:34:41.409 --> 00:34:42.279 You have to watch it. 00:34:42.399 --> 00:34:47.439 There with three son, Bushman, Khoisan master tracker, 00:34:47.449 --> 00:34:49.609 hunter gatherers in Botswana. 00:34:49.609 --> 00:34:55.389 And I remember you, you filmed a particular hunter, a man called Karawa. 00:34:57.404 --> 00:35:02.144 Running down over hours and hours an animal that he shouldn't really 00:35:02.144 --> 00:35:03.554 have been able to keep up with. 00:35:04.094 --> 00:35:10.594 A kudu, running as fast as a horse and going for all day, and yet he could. 00:35:10.624 --> 00:35:13.834 And I remember in your film when you interviewed him, he said at 00:35:13.834 --> 00:35:17.754 a certain point, you must become the animal, you must become kudu. 00:35:18.274 --> 00:35:20.584 And then at a certain point, you go inside its mind. 00:35:21.539 --> 00:35:23.199 And you're no longer yourself. 00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:26.539 And of course, what is that but shape shifting? 00:35:28.409 --> 00:35:29.989 Craig Foster: And extreme empathy. 00:35:30.399 --> 00:35:31.449 Rupert Isaacson: Extreme empathy. 00:35:31.589 --> 00:35:33.029 Is shape shifting empathy? 00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:41.959 Craig Foster: I think it would be I would prefer, yeah, maybe the idea of empathy. 00:35:42.609 --> 00:35:47.019 But you, you, and it's a lifetime, you know, he's done this for his whole life. 00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:50.689 So he knows that animal, he knows its ways through the tracks, through 00:35:50.689 --> 00:35:52.979 tracking that animal for years. 00:35:53.819 --> 00:35:58.369 He knows it so intimately and he's continually, you know, from 00:35:58.369 --> 00:36:02.049 a young age, putting his mind into the tracks, into that animal. 00:36:02.289 --> 00:36:03.359 What is it thinking? 00:36:03.359 --> 00:36:04.384 Where is it going? 00:36:05.044 --> 00:36:07.314 And then one day he just steps into it. 00:36:07.944 --> 00:36:09.144 It's a natural thing. 00:36:09.744 --> 00:36:12.574 And I think in a many, in many ways, that's the origin of. 00:36:12.929 --> 00:36:18.529 Of altered states of trance and continual throwing your mind into the track and 00:36:18.529 --> 00:36:23.819 then one day you find yourself inside that animal sounds quite esoteric, but 00:36:23.819 --> 00:36:29.229 I think if, if you look at it in a, in that, in that way, that practice 00:36:29.229 --> 00:36:32.849 again and again and again, I think I could see it as being quite possible. 00:36:33.319 --> 00:36:33.519 Well, 00:36:33.529 --> 00:36:33.829 Rupert Isaacson: for sure. 00:36:33.959 --> 00:36:37.529 And, you know, as you know, There are no psychotropic plants really that grow 00:36:37.529 --> 00:36:41.989 in the Kalahari area, so yes, you can find an altered state of consciousness 00:36:42.499 --> 00:36:46.249 through a mushroom or through a plant like ayahuasca or something 00:36:46.249 --> 00:36:48.229 that has dimethyltryptamine in it. 00:36:48.629 --> 00:36:52.029 And of course there are shamanic cultures that use those, but the people that you 00:36:52.029 --> 00:36:55.619 were filming had no access to anything like that, so they could only go in. 00:36:56.699 --> 00:37:00.129 Through the method that you described 00:37:02.449 --> 00:37:04.399 Craig Foster: and well then they, although in the transplants, they're 00:37:04.399 --> 00:37:08.349 using breathing, right, hyper ventilation, you know, and the, they're using 00:37:09.579 --> 00:37:10.389 Rupert Isaacson: the drug, right? 00:37:10.389 --> 00:37:12.789 They, they're, they're only exactly their physiology. 00:37:12.794 --> 00:37:12.934 And, 00:37:13.299 --> 00:37:14.589 Craig Foster: and how does that start? 00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:17.349 You know, you don't, you're not, how does, how does that whole thing start? 00:37:17.354 --> 00:37:22.019 And I think the origin of, of trance could well be tracking 00:37:22.139 --> 00:37:25.919 this original form of putting your mind into the mind of another. 00:37:26.374 --> 00:37:27.614 So if you track, 00:37:28.714 --> 00:37:31.724 Rupert Isaacson: are you de facto a more empathetic person? 00:37:35.754 --> 00:37:38.264 Craig Foster: I guess everybody's affected differently, but I think it 00:37:38.264 --> 00:37:40.314 would definitely increase empathy. 00:37:40.624 --> 00:37:44.074 And I think we also, there are quite a few studies that show that, you know, 00:37:44.084 --> 00:37:51.514 a lot of deep nature connection sensing or in nature creates empathy for others. 00:37:51.614 --> 00:37:55.984 You know, that amazing professor at Berkeley, Ducker Keltner has done 00:37:55.984 --> 00:38:00.524 amazing work on this and they've shown how this has actually occurred. 00:38:01.514 --> 00:38:03.514 Rupert Isaacson: Tell us the name of this professor again, just so that 00:38:03.764 --> 00:38:05.154 we can write it down more slowly. 00:38:05.869 --> 00:38:11.289 Craig Foster: Ducker, that's D A C H E R, Keltner, K E L T N E R. 00:38:11.789 --> 00:38:14.359 I had a fascinating conversation with him recently. 00:38:14.539 --> 00:38:19.909 He's a Berkeley professor who studies the effect of awe in nature 00:38:19.919 --> 00:38:22.289 on people, or awe in, in general. 00:38:22.579 --> 00:38:25.869 But he, he's very connected to these nature experiences, and they've 00:38:25.889 --> 00:38:31.339 actually tracked the brain chemistry and the shift in cognition of 00:38:31.349 --> 00:38:33.129 people experiencing these things. 00:38:33.129 --> 00:38:37.989 And one of the things he says is it creates this, this care for others, 00:38:37.989 --> 00:38:41.179 this empathy and less focus on the self. 00:38:43.809 --> 00:38:45.139 Rupert Isaacson: It makes perfect sense. 00:38:45.249 --> 00:38:48.789 And of course, if one is divorced from environments that provide that sense 00:38:48.859 --> 00:38:55.599 of awe, not, not, not confusing awe with fear or stress but actual awe, 00:38:55.629 --> 00:38:59.519 yes, that standing in the presence of something awe inspiring, it's very 00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:01.389 hard to have that outside of nature. 00:39:02.214 --> 00:39:04.304 Craig Foster: And of course, what we were talking about earlier, you 00:39:04.304 --> 00:39:07.504 know, the, the less you have that, the less you're connected with all 00:39:07.504 --> 00:39:12.984 these other creatures, the less you doing these ancient practices, 00:39:13.234 --> 00:39:16.144 the more it throws you on yourself. 00:39:16.714 --> 00:39:20.754 And then, you know, you're fighting those demons of the underworld 00:39:22.404 --> 00:39:23.604 that we spoke about earlier. 00:39:23.934 --> 00:39:24.224 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:39:24.819 --> 00:39:24.919 Yeah. 00:39:25.349 --> 00:39:27.829 We all, we all do our time in the underworld. 00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:33.429 Sometimes the company can be quite good though. 00:39:33.939 --> 00:39:35.659 Craig Foster: Rupert and Craig said, clutching the 00:39:35.669 --> 00:39:37.069 wooden desk in front of them. 00:39:37.369 --> 00:39:37.899 That's right. 00:39:38.059 --> 00:39:40.959 Rupert Isaacson: As I reach for my wine glass but okay. 00:39:40.959 --> 00:39:45.279 So on this business tracking and empathy the altered state of consciousness and 00:39:46.149 --> 00:39:49.159 Yeah, I guess one could argue that. 00:39:50.349 --> 00:39:55.129 When you feel great empathy for somebody else, it, it is an altered 00:39:55.129 --> 00:39:58.869 state of consciousness and it just might be in ones that we have familiar, 00:39:58.869 --> 00:40:00.499 but they always feel miraculous. 00:40:00.529 --> 00:40:02.669 Like, for example, when we fall in love, right? 00:40:03.259 --> 00:40:07.949 Or when we feel deep friendship and connection with someone, is that not in 00:40:07.949 --> 00:40:09.589 itself an altered state of consciousness? 00:40:09.589 --> 00:40:12.399 And are we then beginning to track that person? 00:40:12.959 --> 00:40:18.859 The acute observation that the deep, Listening, the desire to 00:40:18.859 --> 00:40:21.929 understand that person, you know, 00:40:21.949 --> 00:40:22.829 Craig Foster: I love that idea. 00:40:22.839 --> 00:40:23.949 That's a great idea. 00:40:23.949 --> 00:40:24.259 Yeah. 00:40:24.539 --> 00:40:25.089 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:27.959 That, that person, perhaps that person become nature, you know, 00:40:30.049 --> 00:40:34.049 those of us who spent a lot of time, I'm sure a lot of listeners have 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:37.579 experienced these states of all and 00:40:39.579 --> 00:40:44.589 felt transcendent altered your book. 00:40:45.029 --> 00:40:51.219 So amphibious soul, you're there in the African sea forest, as you call it, which 00:40:51.219 --> 00:40:53.349 is a beautiful name that this kelp forest. 00:40:54.189 --> 00:40:59.819 On this wild coast, can you take us into there and can you take us into 00:40:59.819 --> 00:41:08.089 there when you, the first time you can remember feeling that you stepped 00:41:08.089 --> 00:41:09.769 into this state of auto consciousness? 00:41:11.689 --> 00:41:13.239 What went on? 00:41:14.569 --> 00:41:15.469 What brought you in? 00:41:15.469 --> 00:41:16.379 How did you access it? 00:41:16.389 --> 00:41:21.799 Had you been diving and swimming in there for a long time before that happened? 00:41:22.149 --> 00:41:24.639 Or has that actually been happening to you since you were a child? 00:41:24.929 --> 00:41:28.459 But if so, can you, can you bring us in there a little bit? 00:41:29.619 --> 00:41:30.429 Craig Foster: Yeah, that's great. 00:41:30.529 --> 00:41:36.379 , I think that, I mean, I definitely noticed as a very young child, I was 00:41:36.379 --> 00:41:40.974 very shy sometimes overly shy child that there was something about that 00:41:40.974 --> 00:41:44.844 cold water that made me feel good, but it just didn't have any idea of what it 00:41:44.844 --> 00:41:50.654 was or why, or, you know, a child you don't think like that funny enough, I 00:41:50.654 --> 00:41:54.014 mean, what I just on Friday, it's now. 00:41:55.629 --> 00:42:02.939 Um, Wednesday, just on this last Friday I had a very powerful transcendent 00:42:02.939 --> 00:42:08.219 experience and it was, and I tried to really track it and look at it. 00:42:08.249 --> 00:42:10.739 And I wouldn't mind just telling you a little bit about that. 00:42:10.749 --> 00:42:17.239 So, and I, I almost sensed the ingredients of, of what made it occur. 00:42:17.829 --> 00:42:20.229 So it was just a, a winter's day here. 00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:21.829 It was a very nice, calm day. 00:42:21.829 --> 00:42:22.729 I was with my. 00:42:23.334 --> 00:42:25.504 Tracking friends, my close friends. 00:42:25.504 --> 00:42:29.794 And we know when you're with close friends, a little bit like we had 00:42:29.824 --> 00:42:32.834 earlier, you could have teased, start teasing each other, you're laughing 00:42:32.834 --> 00:42:35.564 at each other, there's a, there's a great openness and there's a lot of 00:42:35.564 --> 00:42:39.954 laughter, and then we started, we went to this little piece of coast. 00:42:39.954 --> 00:42:41.584 We know well, and we did some very. 00:42:42.084 --> 00:42:46.944 In depth tracking, really looking at the micro tiny little amphipods 00:42:47.424 --> 00:42:51.394 making little holes and the tiny little amazing intricate tracks they 00:42:51.394 --> 00:42:57.404 were leaving even a person who'd picked up a shell and dropped it. 00:42:57.404 --> 00:43:01.874 And the, the, we analyzed the, the drops and what height the person dropped it 00:43:01.874 --> 00:43:03.854 from and everything was quite fascinating. 00:43:04.524 --> 00:43:06.724 And then we entered the water. 00:43:07.554 --> 00:43:10.874 We did some underwater tracking and found some really interesting 00:43:10.874 --> 00:43:13.714 stuff with cat sharks and crabs. 00:43:13.784 --> 00:43:20.154 And then we did a long swim and it was particularly clear water. 00:43:20.264 --> 00:43:23.814 And then we, we got out after about 45 minutes and then 00:43:23.814 --> 00:43:25.724 walked back along the coast. 00:43:25.979 --> 00:43:28.339 And then we lay on this hot rock in the sun. 00:43:29.289 --> 00:43:36.409 And suddenly, I felt my whole nervous system just dropping right down. 00:43:37.389 --> 00:43:40.379 And I could feel that massive altered state. 00:43:40.874 --> 00:43:44.084 Obviously my, my body was flooded with, with dopamine and 00:43:44.084 --> 00:43:45.714 noradrenaline from the cold. 00:43:45.974 --> 00:43:47.564 So we died without wetsuits. 00:43:48.794 --> 00:43:56.994 And it was extraordinary powerful feeling of what happened was all 00:43:57.004 --> 00:44:02.824 sense of wanting to do anything, be anywhere went away completely. 00:44:04.634 --> 00:44:08.584 All, all sense of purpose went away. 00:44:08.959 --> 00:44:14.229 All kind of niggling things that I have to do this and that entirely vanished in that 00:44:14.369 --> 00:44:18.059 and what I had a strong, strong sense of. 00:44:19.104 --> 00:44:26.224 Of is what it was like to live 10, 000, 50, 000 years ago, when, and I just 00:44:26.224 --> 00:44:31.094 imagine, imagine having a life where you've never done a single email and never 00:44:31.094 --> 00:44:36.144 done a payment, never had tax to do, never had appointment, never had a meeting. 00:44:36.824 --> 00:44:40.494 Of course your life is hard and harsh and you see death all around and you 00:44:40.494 --> 00:44:44.154 haven't got a pharmacy or hospital or you've never had a cup of coffee, you've 00:44:44.154 --> 00:44:48.764 never had watched a a wonderful film, you know, all the luxuries we have. 00:44:48.764 --> 00:44:50.994 You've slept cold many nights. 00:44:51.804 --> 00:44:56.614 But you've also got that enormous freedom of being in that present state. 00:44:56.614 --> 00:45:01.424 And you've got nowhere to be, all you have to do, especially in this environment is 00:45:01.424 --> 00:45:03.694 survive and have enough food for that day. 00:45:03.704 --> 00:45:05.764 And that only takes about two hours. 00:45:06.534 --> 00:45:11.434 So we come out of this place of incredible freedom and transcendence. 00:45:11.434 --> 00:45:16.074 And I'm sure you've heard of this term wilderness rapture or primal joy. 00:45:16.664 --> 00:45:19.704 And this has been a lot of, you know, people who've spent a lot of time with 00:45:19.704 --> 00:45:22.554 indigenous people have come across. 00:45:23.814 --> 00:45:28.214 People who have this in immense joy that bubbles out of them for no good reason. 00:45:28.224 --> 00:45:31.714 And we sat there in the rock as our tracking team, just laughing 00:45:32.234 --> 00:45:35.974 for no good reason, just from the sheer joy of existence. 00:45:36.644 --> 00:45:39.254 It's not like we have that every time, you know, these are moments 00:45:39.254 --> 00:45:42.494 of grace, but that's what it's like. 00:45:42.654 --> 00:45:46.904 When you reconnect with the wild with the right people in the right space. 00:45:46.944 --> 00:45:48.744 And I can go on and on, but I don't want to 00:45:48.834 --> 00:45:52.379 Rupert Isaacson: like, like doing murmurations. 00:45:53.939 --> 00:45:58.679 Sometimes seemingly just from the pure joy of moving in the currents. 00:45:59.489 --> 00:45:59.869 Hmm. 00:46:00.189 --> 00:46:06.989 What's interesting, these, these ideas of connection, because we are mid 00:46:06.989 --> 00:46:11.219 level weak, mid level predators that if we don't connect with each other 00:46:11.219 --> 00:46:13.979 and strategize, hyenas tend to eat us. 00:46:14.609 --> 00:46:17.569 Is there also in us a great sense of safety? 00:46:18.599 --> 00:46:20.649 Like the brain is always asking this question. 00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:21.339 Am I safe? 00:46:22.089 --> 00:46:24.169 And, you know, if I. 00:46:24.909 --> 00:46:27.849 Looked at your ocean and went I'd look at it and go, no, I'm fucking not safe. 00:46:28.069 --> 00:46:29.869 Not no, no, no fucking way am I safe. 00:46:30.209 --> 00:46:34.244 You would look at that ocean and say In this context, in this ocean, because 00:46:34.244 --> 00:46:36.454 I'm intimate with this ocean, I am safe. 00:46:37.014 --> 00:46:40.304 Because I've spent the time to develop that relationship. 00:46:40.984 --> 00:46:42.334 You can then make me safe. 00:46:45.894 --> 00:46:52.474 Does tracking and the competence that it gives one, the intimacy that it 00:46:52.474 --> 00:46:59.714 gives one, with the environment and the inhabitants of that environment, does 00:46:59.754 --> 00:47:02.484 that say to our brain, you're safe? 00:47:04.804 --> 00:47:06.454 And therefore allow us 00:47:08.464 --> 00:47:11.679 to feel safe together, because there's some of the parts of our 00:47:12.149 --> 00:47:14.209 Group competence makes us safer. 00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:16.739 Craig Foster: I think you've hit on a very 00:47:16.799 --> 00:47:18.429 Rupert Isaacson: core of social wellbeing. 00:47:19.429 --> 00:47:23.949 Craig Foster: I think you've hit on a very important point is that when you 00:47:23.959 --> 00:47:28.919 know your environment and you know, you can survive off that environment, 00:47:29.569 --> 00:47:32.309 that is a primal indicator of safety. 00:47:33.789 --> 00:47:40.119 But another big factor here is I think we have a way of measuring biodiversity. 00:47:41.084 --> 00:47:42.054 in our being. 00:47:42.224 --> 00:47:48.764 We, we listen to what bird activity, we, we, we smelling a whole lot of things. 00:47:48.794 --> 00:47:55.174 All our senses can determine very, very quickly what levels of biodiversity 00:47:55.194 --> 00:47:57.284 we are that are surrounding us. 00:47:57.604 --> 00:47:59.914 And I've had the privilege of spending some time in these 00:47:59.914 --> 00:48:01.544 near pristine environments. 00:48:02.184 --> 00:48:06.404 And the effect that has on the psyche is unbelievable because you feel extreme 00:48:06.404 --> 00:48:11.224 safety because you know, if everything's taken away, you can easily survive. 00:48:11.884 --> 00:48:16.434 So it's a, it's, I think it's a combination of being able to track. 00:48:17.179 --> 00:48:22.379 Knowing the physicalities of how to survive, who's, what animals, what plants 00:48:22.379 --> 00:48:27.109 are moving around growing, whatever, and then the levels of biodiversity, 00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:29.459 because biodiversity is that, 00:48:31.659 --> 00:48:36.969 you know, life force that animates us, but also allows us to survive 00:48:37.439 --> 00:48:38.919 even today, no matter where you live. 00:48:39.179 --> 00:48:41.779 Rupert Isaacson: It's the, it's the diverse investment portfolio, isn't it? 00:48:41.819 --> 00:48:45.109 It's like looking at your bank accounts and saying, Oh, I've got lots of bank 00:48:45.109 --> 00:48:48.819 accounts in these different places, drawing money from these different things. 00:48:49.289 --> 00:48:53.499 That's replacing is that replacing biodiversity in the way a hunter 00:48:53.499 --> 00:48:57.754 gatherer would look at the landscape and say, I have such a plenitude of 00:48:57.754 --> 00:49:00.224 food here that is at my fingertips. 00:49:00.534 --> 00:49:02.844 I could go to this cash, this cash withdrawal machine. 00:49:03.034 --> 00:49:05.814 That cash withdraw, this cash withdrawal machine is living 00:49:05.814 --> 00:49:07.724 on, has limpets on this rock. 00:49:07.724 --> 00:49:11.344 That cash withdrawal machine is moving in a herd across the hill there. 00:49:11.824 --> 00:49:14.664 And there's another one swimming past me in the shallows. 00:49:14.964 --> 00:49:17.074 Therefore, I feel security, therefore. 00:49:18.954 --> 00:49:20.684 Craig Foster: I think, I think you're absolutely right. 00:49:20.684 --> 00:49:26.134 But the fascinating and interesting and, you know, scary thing is that we 00:49:26.144 --> 00:49:30.714 think we, you know, we think we can live independent of nature and you're 00:49:30.724 --> 00:49:35.484 absolutely right that, that, you know, money has replaced biodiversity and, 00:49:35.484 --> 00:49:41.814 and, and skills in many ways, but, or hunting or tracking skills, but what we've 00:49:41.824 --> 00:49:47.874 forgotten, Rupert, is that, and I'm sure you know this well, The foundation of 00:49:47.924 --> 00:49:56.336 all our economics, all our politics, all our bank accounts is biodiverse nature. 00:49:56.336 --> 00:50:02.694 If we have biodiversity collapse, you can have as many bank accounts 00:50:02.694 --> 00:50:06.324 as you like, and as many millions of dollars as you like, and they 00:50:06.324 --> 00:50:07.972 will be worth zero, nothing. 00:50:07.972 --> 00:50:08.396 Less 00:50:08.396 --> 00:50:09.669 Rupert Isaacson: than a limpet. 00:50:10.269 --> 00:50:13.689 Craig Foster: Less than a limpet because you won't be able to breathe. 00:50:13.699 --> 00:50:14.999 You won't be able to eat. 00:50:15.439 --> 00:50:16.899 You will die very quickly. 00:50:16.929 --> 00:50:17.089 That 00:50:17.089 --> 00:50:18.659 Rupert Isaacson: should be, that should be our new website. 00:50:18.689 --> 00:50:20.119 Less than a limpet dot com. 00:50:21.809 --> 00:50:23.059 You can't eat the fucker. 00:50:24.289 --> 00:50:26.419 Craig Foster: Less than a limpet's tooth tongue. 00:50:26.419 --> 00:50:35.869 So the, that's why, um, what we talking about and this, this, 00:50:35.869 --> 00:50:39.894 this, The, the collection of plants and animals and their amazing 00:50:39.914 --> 00:50:44.724 interrelationships, that is the most precious thing we ever will come across. 00:50:44.754 --> 00:50:48.414 That's what's allowing every person on this planet to breathe and to 00:50:48.414 --> 00:50:50.294 eat and that's what we've forgotten. 00:50:50.374 --> 00:50:51.424 I mean, that's what allows 00:50:51.614 --> 00:50:55.084 Rupert Isaacson: the creation of symbol of money in the first place, as you say. 00:50:56.239 --> 00:50:59.699 Craig Foster: Yes, everything is, everything is, is allowed by that. 00:50:59.699 --> 00:51:04.249 And that's why we have to desperately look after that if we want to continue 00:51:04.669 --> 00:51:06.809 as a species living on the planet. 00:51:08.659 --> 00:51:13.599 Rupert Isaacson: This brings me to thinking about symbology, symbols 00:51:14.179 --> 00:51:20.019 because tracking, when one sees tracks, they appear as symbols, right? 00:51:20.019 --> 00:51:25.059 We know that this three toed symbol is this type of bird. 00:51:25.069 --> 00:51:29.524 And we know that this The other one in this cluster with these 00:51:29.544 --> 00:51:33.554 dots and these little pointy bits on the end is that kind of mammal. 00:51:34.094 --> 00:51:38.664 And then we can take those things and make images of them. 00:51:38.894 --> 00:51:41.474 And, you know, we see this in rock art. 00:51:42.354 --> 00:51:44.124 We've also seen this in our alphabet, right? 00:51:44.144 --> 00:51:46.954 We, we've created writing. 00:51:47.884 --> 00:51:49.274 We're also the storytelling, eh? 00:51:49.634 --> 00:51:51.344 If storytelling also comes from tracking. 00:51:51.624 --> 00:51:55.584 And then we created art and symbology from the tracking. 00:51:55.924 --> 00:51:57.334 And then we've created. 00:51:57.849 --> 00:52:02.129 Writing from that and then writing it 00:52:04.149 --> 00:52:07.679 allows us to storytell and track in other ways. 00:52:08.279 --> 00:52:15.259 Is, is, is that, is that what, is that the best thing of our 00:52:15.699 --> 00:52:18.789 civilization that we've taken the 00:52:21.769 --> 00:52:26.629 symbology of tracking through biodiversity and turned it into 00:52:28.459 --> 00:52:29.769 a whole world of symbolism? 00:52:31.619 --> 00:52:35.659 Craig Foster: That is such an interesting idea that tracking 00:52:35.669 --> 00:52:42.179 and, and, and as you say, pattern recognition could have in some way 00:52:42.179 --> 00:52:45.249 inspired the first art or symbol making. 00:52:45.319 --> 00:52:46.059 I have not. 00:52:46.449 --> 00:52:49.999 Thought too much about that, but I love that idea very much. 00:52:49.999 --> 00:52:54.789 I'll have to look at that in more detail, but it's a fascinating idea. 00:52:54.809 --> 00:52:59.289 I mean, what I, what I'm working with, I'm working with these amazing 00:52:59.289 --> 00:53:04.109 group of scientists headed up by professor Christopher Henshelwood. 00:53:04.469 --> 00:53:10.219 There's a, a friend of mine and he's discovered in Lombos cave along 00:53:10.219 --> 00:53:11.839 the, just along the coast here. 00:53:12.339 --> 00:53:16.879 The oldest collection of engravings on earth together with 00:53:16.879 --> 00:53:19.759 a whole lot of other interesting things like the oldest drawing. 00:53:22.179 --> 00:53:24.289 What is interesting is this is the oldest out 00:53:24.289 --> 00:53:25.959 Rupert Isaacson: of interest, everyone will want to know. 00:53:26.149 --> 00:53:26.909 Craig Foster: Yeah, sorry. 00:53:26.939 --> 00:53:27.439 Yeah. 00:53:27.619 --> 00:53:33.109 So the one of the oldest is gravings is 100, 000 years and they're 14 of them and 00:53:33.109 --> 00:53:35.499 the youngest ones about 75, 000 years. 00:53:36.099 --> 00:53:38.899 And there's a whole lot of other fascinating corroborating 00:53:38.919 --> 00:53:40.469 evidence that goes with this. 00:53:40.989 --> 00:53:44.279 But to talk to your point. 00:53:45.044 --> 00:53:52.054 At some point, someone had to think and make a huge jump in cognition to have an 00:53:52.054 --> 00:53:57.484 idea inside their brain and to be able to put it onto a physical object and 00:53:57.484 --> 00:53:59.774 engrave it onto that piece of red ochre. 00:54:00.094 --> 00:54:03.664 That's a massive jump in cognition. 00:54:04.304 --> 00:54:08.674 And To actually create a symbol in the real world. 00:54:09.094 --> 00:54:12.784 It's one thing looking at symbols and interpreting them, making them is massive. 00:54:13.094 --> 00:54:18.404 And that is probably one of the greatest changes in our entire history as a 00:54:18.404 --> 00:54:23.234 species, because once you've got a symbol, then you can communicate at 00:54:23.234 --> 00:54:26.144 a very profound level across time. 00:54:26.144 --> 00:54:26.874 And. 00:54:28.314 --> 00:54:34.144 Those, those engravings at that hundred thousand years are really the first proto 00:54:34.164 --> 00:54:36.274 books and the first proto computers. 00:54:36.284 --> 00:54:41.274 So what you're saying is absolutely true about, you know, that that's how we have 00:54:41.274 --> 00:54:43.684 the sophisticated, you know, storytelling. 00:54:43.684 --> 00:54:45.644 We've got all our technology is based on that. 00:54:45.644 --> 00:54:49.884 You can't build a car unless those people in Africa had done that a hundred thousand 00:54:49.884 --> 00:54:55.804 years ago, but whether that It's still a mystery as far as I know is how that 00:54:55.804 --> 00:55:00.454 person first thought that African person thought to do that momentous thing. 00:55:00.924 --> 00:55:06.344 But I love this idea that it could have been through this, you know, long 00:55:06.414 --> 00:55:11.084 period of patent recognition that you could, that maybe that inspired that. 00:55:11.134 --> 00:55:14.504 It's, it's been an interesting thing to question to throw at the 00:55:14.534 --> 00:55:16.414 archaeologists and anthropologists. 00:55:16.504 --> 00:55:18.254 Rupert Isaacson: And as you're talking, of course, it makes one 00:55:18.264 --> 00:55:19.694 think of mathematics as well. 00:55:20.284 --> 00:55:22.294 Because, you know, what is that but measurement? 00:55:22.304 --> 00:55:23.454 What else can you measure? 00:55:23.684 --> 00:55:27.384 But the stuff around you, you know, that you see, what is that the product of 00:55:27.414 --> 00:55:32.074 biodiversity, whether it's in the stars you're seeing above you or the sand that's 00:55:32.124 --> 00:55:40.284 under your feet or the distance you have to throw the spear or, or there's no way 00:55:41.964 --> 00:55:45.164 when one looks at it that way that any of this cannot have come from tracking. 00:55:47.024 --> 00:55:49.794 Now you though, and you talk about this really well in your 00:55:49.794 --> 00:55:52.764 book, you were not always. 00:55:53.859 --> 00:55:54.919 Diving to track. 00:55:55.834 --> 00:55:58.644 A certain point came when you did. 00:55:59.424 --> 00:56:02.694 Can you tell us that story? 00:56:02.884 --> 00:56:04.674 When and why did that happen? 00:56:05.184 --> 00:56:10.914 And then how did that open up this African seaforest to you and your perception? 00:56:11.014 --> 00:56:12.124 That's quite 00:56:12.124 --> 00:56:13.244 Craig Foster: a fundamental thing. 00:56:13.244 --> 00:56:18.274 So, I mean, I don't know if this ever happened to you Rupert, when you spent 00:56:18.274 --> 00:56:24.574 your time in the Kalahari, but when I was first there in the late 90s. 00:56:25.189 --> 00:56:29.839 It was both enthralling and terrifying because I had spent 00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:31.999 so much of my life in nature. 00:56:32.229 --> 00:56:33.879 I thought I was connected to nature. 00:56:33.879 --> 00:56:40.449 And when I met Karawa, as you pointed out, Kwasi and Ngate, and I saw what they 00:56:40.509 --> 00:56:44.679 could do and how they could understand the wild, I felt pretty useless. 00:56:44.699 --> 00:56:50.054 And I felt Outside of nature, and it bothered me for a long time. 00:56:51.074 --> 00:56:56.494 So when I started diving again every day after a few years, I wanted to 00:56:56.494 --> 00:57:00.944 get deeper and I remembered this incredible time in the Kalahari. 00:57:00.944 --> 00:57:04.114 And then I thought there must be a way of tracking underwater. 00:57:04.124 --> 00:57:04.954 There must be a way. 00:57:04.974 --> 00:57:07.574 Cause I knew that tracking was the way of getting into deep water. 00:57:07.774 --> 00:57:08.364 Nature. 00:57:09.064 --> 00:57:14.074 And I saw these first tracks of the whelk, the whelks left on the rock 00:57:14.074 --> 00:57:16.914 where they leave the slime trails and the tiny particles of sand 00:57:16.914 --> 00:57:18.844 collect, and I was, oh, so excited. 00:57:19.274 --> 00:57:22.684 And then from that moment, I just started seeing more and more tracks. 00:57:22.684 --> 00:57:25.884 And now I've got, you know, thousands of underwater tracks in 00:57:25.884 --> 00:57:29.944 my head and I can, every time I dive, unless it's very, very rough. 00:57:30.724 --> 00:57:35.194 I, you know, I'm just looking at them and they, they're telling me so much about 00:57:35.194 --> 00:57:37.774 what's going on and on the land as well. 00:57:37.804 --> 00:57:41.954 It's like a, a secret key, this golden key you're given to 00:57:41.964 --> 00:57:43.704 unlock the door of wild nature. 00:57:44.174 --> 00:57:45.814 Rupert Isaacson: Well, what's interesting too, is you've used it 00:57:45.824 --> 00:57:48.189 to unlock the, the key of nature. 00:57:49.019 --> 00:57:54.389 What appears to be non nature too, in that I love that your first tracking experience 00:57:55.019 --> 00:57:56.589 with the seaforest was the whelk. 00:57:57.469 --> 00:58:02.339 And then you just talked about your first tracking experience in London of the slug. 00:58:03.669 --> 00:58:04.039 Yeah. 00:58:04.089 --> 00:58:06.609 But you wouldn't have been able to do the slug without the whelk, right? 00:58:06.619 --> 00:58:07.119 The whelk. 00:58:07.399 --> 00:58:08.059 Exactly. 00:58:08.089 --> 00:58:08.429 Slug. 00:58:09.879 --> 00:58:10.529 Craig Foster: Exactly. 00:58:10.779 --> 00:58:12.749 Rupert Isaacson: What do you do when you can't track? 00:58:13.094 --> 00:58:19.724 What do you do when the ground is too hard to show us a sign, 00:58:20.084 --> 00:58:21.574 when the water is too murky? 00:58:23.314 --> 00:58:24.574 How do you then track? 00:58:25.534 --> 00:58:28.404 Craig Foster: So then what you do is you use your knowledge. 00:58:29.099 --> 00:58:34.919 of animals and their behaviors to try and interpret where they may be. 00:58:36.069 --> 00:58:40.919 So, you know, if there's a certain wind blowing on land, then you 00:58:40.919 --> 00:58:43.549 know that they will be using that. 00:58:44.269 --> 00:58:49.319 They will be going normally, if they're hungry, towards where their prey animals 00:58:49.319 --> 00:58:51.849 are likely to be or to where shelter is. 00:58:52.179 --> 00:58:57.209 In the water depending on what animal you're tracking, if it's really rough, 00:58:57.219 --> 00:59:00.859 for instance, you know, a lot of the animals will either be going into 00:59:00.859 --> 00:59:04.729 their cave shelters or they'll be going into the deeper water, where 00:59:04.739 --> 00:59:09.309 it's, there's less movement they will be following certain smells, they'll 00:59:09.309 --> 00:59:11.769 be following so many different things. 00:59:11.779 --> 00:59:16.919 So you can then make predictions based upon what you know about their behaviors. 00:59:21.219 --> 00:59:22.299 Rupert Isaacson: You describe, 00:59:24.409 --> 00:59:27.489 you know, you're, you're, you're a beautiful nature writer and you 00:59:27.489 --> 00:59:32.199 describe some encounters with. 00:59:32.794 --> 00:59:37.304 animals, not just the ones we would have expected with, for example, 00:59:37.804 --> 00:59:41.124 the octopus that you had your relationship with, with the film, but 00:59:41.154 --> 00:59:46.314 you, you, you talk about some really profound moments with other animals. 00:59:46.334 --> 00:59:50.904 I remember you, you wrote, About an early dive, I think you said you 00:59:50.904 --> 00:59:53.654 were 15 where an octopus took you. 00:59:55.424 --> 01:00:00.834 And you had to react to that in a certain way. 01:00:03.514 --> 01:00:06.174 You were always observing, you were always, as you said, you know, you 01:00:06.174 --> 01:00:07.684 were put into the water as a baby. 01:00:07.834 --> 01:00:09.564 Your parents dove, you dove. 01:00:11.534 --> 01:00:15.684 At what point, I would like you to tell us that first story with the octopus 01:00:19.244 --> 01:00:20.944 that could have drowned you. 01:00:21.649 --> 01:00:23.159 And then how 01:00:25.649 --> 01:00:34.209 did that transform into the later encounters with not just the octopus, 01:00:34.499 --> 01:00:38.209 but the other creatures that in this more intimate way, I know you might 01:00:38.209 --> 01:00:42.219 say, well, I learned to track Rupert and then I became more observant, but 01:00:42.219 --> 01:00:45.339 it's not just that something internal. 01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:52.899 Must have driven you to not just to want to make that change in 01:00:52.899 --> 01:00:57.169 relationship, but to be able 01:00:59.289 --> 01:01:02.249 to be ready somehow to cross that threshold. 01:01:02.609 --> 01:01:08.099 Could you just tell us that first octopus story and then just however 01:01:08.099 --> 01:01:12.849 it comes to you, how did that transform into the relationships 01:01:12.849 --> 01:01:14.039 with animals that you have now? 01:01:16.169 --> 01:01:16.639 Craig Foster: Sure. 01:01:16.709 --> 01:01:20.649 I was, yeah, 15 or 16 we were in a a very sort of. 01:01:22.814 --> 01:01:26.154 volatile estuary way up the coast. 01:01:26.754 --> 01:01:28.054 It was a calm day. 01:01:29.644 --> 01:01:30.754 And I slipped into the water. 01:01:30.754 --> 01:01:34.564 It wasn't too deep and went down and saw the by far the 01:01:34.564 --> 01:01:36.214 biggest octopus I'd ever seen. 01:01:36.864 --> 01:01:38.774 It was quite a lot bigger than myself. 01:01:39.104 --> 01:01:42.524 It was probably a Southern giant octopus, which is a species 01:01:42.524 --> 01:01:44.809 one very rarely sees here. 01:01:45.359 --> 01:01:49.229 And I was just completely mesmerized by it and went a bit too close and 01:01:49.229 --> 01:01:55.419 I think the animal got a little bit perturbed and it grabbed hold of me and 01:01:55.449 --> 01:01:57.529 pulled it in pulled me into its den. 01:01:58.369 --> 01:02:01.559 And the strength of this animal was just unbelievable. 01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:04.309 I mean, it was, I don't know, five times my strength easily. 01:02:04.309 --> 01:02:08.729 And I remember all the skin being scraped off my arms as it pulled me in. 01:02:09.669 --> 01:02:11.769 And I couldn't, I could hardly move. 01:02:12.329 --> 01:02:13.579 It was so powerful. 01:02:14.129 --> 01:02:16.739 And instinctively I knew to relax. 01:02:16.739 --> 01:02:21.739 If I tried to fight and I wouldn't have been able to, and we'd certainly be dead. 01:02:21.739 --> 01:02:25.969 So I was pretty fit and used to diving. 01:02:25.969 --> 01:02:28.189 So I could hold my breath for quite a long time. 01:02:28.749 --> 01:02:31.919 So I just had no choice, but to totally relax. 01:02:32.339 --> 01:02:35.109 And then probably within about 30 or 40 seconds. 01:02:35.579 --> 01:02:36.789 Maybe a little longer. 01:02:37.289 --> 01:02:42.949 This, this very powerful animal let me go and I was able to go to the surface. 01:02:43.609 --> 01:02:47.629 And strangely, I was not in any way traumatized, never 01:02:47.629 --> 01:02:49.299 had a bad dream about it. 01:02:49.379 --> 01:02:52.174 It just was, you know, Fine. 01:02:52.344 --> 01:02:57.164 And then, you know, lesson learned, don't go, you know, too 01:02:57.194 --> 01:02:58.984 close to a massive cephalopod. 01:02:59.554 --> 01:03:05.254 So that, how that connected to the other question I'm not totally sure. 01:03:05.294 --> 01:03:10.194 What did pop into my mind was, strangely enough, when you were asking the question 01:03:10.194 --> 01:03:14.094 was, you know, how do you track an otter? 01:03:14.624 --> 01:03:20.604 And that took me a long time to figure out because they're extremely cryptic animals. 01:03:21.134 --> 01:03:25.634 And I eventually realized that I could watch the birds very closely 01:03:26.004 --> 01:03:28.734 and see where they were flying and see where they were looking. 01:03:29.094 --> 01:03:32.674 And then I would just follow their, their eyes and use them 01:03:32.674 --> 01:03:34.154 like you would use a drone. 01:03:35.134 --> 01:03:38.054 And then I could follow an otter through the kelp forest. 01:03:38.484 --> 01:03:42.184 And then when I got close, I could follow the bubble trails that are 01:03:42.594 --> 01:03:47.604 coming out of the otter's fur and eventually find that animal, very 01:03:48.384 --> 01:03:53.974 cryptic animal, and I was able to observe some of the secret hunting behavior. 01:03:54.614 --> 01:03:55.654 I think the desire. 01:03:56.684 --> 01:04:02.654 The big driver, what you're asking for, I just had a enormous desire to be able 01:04:02.654 --> 01:04:05.054 to speak this oldest language on earth. 01:04:05.434 --> 01:04:07.354 I couldn't even articulate that. 01:04:07.404 --> 01:04:12.854 I just, it was a deep yearning to be able to somehow connect 01:04:12.854 --> 01:04:14.754 with that wild person inside me. 01:04:15.294 --> 01:04:22.859 And I knew eventually that this tracking and this Repetition of being in the, 01:04:22.869 --> 01:04:29.229 in nature was the key and it was enormously, um, hugely relieving, a 01:04:29.259 --> 01:04:32.009 massive relief to be able to do that. 01:04:32.009 --> 01:04:37.199 And I'm still, you know, like to go a lot further and get a lot better at this. 01:04:37.199 --> 01:04:42.329 I still feel I'm learning a lot and nowhere near the skill of. 01:04:43.019 --> 01:04:47.289 You know, some of those master trackers that I were my mentors. 01:04:47.779 --> 01:04:51.079 Um, but it's very, very gratifying. 01:04:51.079 --> 01:04:54.039 And, you know, I've learned so much through it that. 01:04:55.224 --> 01:05:00.684 Um, it's a lifelong passion to be able to do this and to be able to pass it 01:05:01.084 --> 01:05:02.754 on to people who are serious about it. 01:05:02.754 --> 01:05:06.714 It's not something that you can learn too quickly, but you can actually 01:05:06.734 --> 01:05:11.474 accomplish quite a lot in a very short time and be very satisfied in a very short 01:05:11.474 --> 01:05:13.554 time, but to master takes a long time. 01:05:14.434 --> 01:05:18.454 Rupert Isaacson: To your reaction to the, that first octopus that grabbed 01:05:18.454 --> 01:05:21.484 you reminds me of a question which I wanted to ask a little way back. 01:05:21.494 --> 01:05:22.104 You talked about awe. 01:05:23.449 --> 01:05:28.259 And how awe and empathy seem to be connected through this 01:05:28.259 --> 01:05:31.549 work that's been done at the University of California, Berkeley. 01:05:31.549 --> 01:05:32.239 Is that correct? 01:05:32.519 --> 01:05:32.989 Craig Foster: Correct. 01:05:33.029 --> 01:05:33.509 Yes. 01:05:33.859 --> 01:05:35.959 Rupert Isaacson: You know, what's interesting to me is that 01:05:38.129 --> 01:05:45.099 by the time you get into Greek civilization, a new word creeps 01:05:45.099 --> 01:05:47.649 in, and that word is panic. 01:05:48.669 --> 01:05:52.499 And the God Pan, you know, the God of nature panic is, 01:05:53.809 --> 01:05:55.884 originates in a feeling of panic. 01:05:56.634 --> 01:06:06.214 irrational fear of being the hunted prey, almost a madness that can come upon you. 01:06:06.774 --> 01:06:13.574 In the wild panic, but it's interesting to me that that word is 01:06:15.964 --> 01:06:20.684 coined in a one of the first big civilizations that was actively 01:06:20.684 --> 01:06:25.294 trying to remove itself from nature. 01:06:25.624 --> 01:06:27.994 They were certainly more connected to nature than we were the ancient Greeks, 01:06:27.994 --> 01:06:32.094 but they were definitely creating all the technologies and city states and 01:06:32.564 --> 01:06:36.374 so forth and so forth that, you know, have led us to the path we're on today. 01:06:37.264 --> 01:06:39.394 It's you did not panic. 01:06:41.909 --> 01:06:49.469 It seems that when the octopus took you, you actually accessed a state of awe, 01:06:51.779 --> 01:06:52.999 a certain, I don't know. 01:06:54.639 --> 01:06:58.279 Craig Foster: I was pretty frightened, but I knew that I it was a pure 01:06:58.279 --> 01:07:03.619 survival instinct of knowing that I really needed to relax. 01:07:03.649 --> 01:07:07.699 And I've had, I've been in situations like that again, but not with an animal. 01:07:08.214 --> 01:07:09.414 being stuck underwater. 01:07:09.434 --> 01:07:15.154 And what saved me was just relaxing and waiting for that swell to pop me back 01:07:15.184 --> 01:07:16.774 out because I was stuck underwater. 01:07:17.234 --> 01:07:23.854 So I think there's a, you have to be, I think it's hard not to panic underwater 01:07:24.144 --> 01:07:26.254 if you don't spend a lot of time there. 01:07:26.424 --> 01:07:30.534 But if you spend a lot of time, I think one realizes, okay this is what you need 01:07:30.534 --> 01:07:34.884 to do because you also know that, of course, as soon as you start panicking, 01:07:34.884 --> 01:07:39.494 your consumption of oxygen goes up so radically that you minimize your time. 01:07:40.084 --> 01:07:42.194 You know that very clearly. 01:07:42.874 --> 01:07:44.894 So you don't really have a choice. 01:07:44.924 --> 01:07:52.174 I, I don't think I was feeling necessarily or in the, I was feeling 01:07:52.174 --> 01:07:56.884 quite a lot of fear, but I had to just suppress that and physically relax my 01:07:56.884 --> 01:07:59.714 whole body and try and just, you know. 01:08:00.969 --> 01:08:02.019 Not move a muscle. 01:08:03.409 --> 01:08:04.479 Rupert Isaacson: It it's, 01:08:06.499 --> 01:08:08.829 Craig Foster: but what, what, what, what, what I did think about when you 01:08:08.839 --> 01:08:13.379 said that was, you know, the irony of this sort of scenario is as we 01:08:13.379 --> 01:08:17.189 try to control mother, big mother, 01:08:17.529 --> 01:08:17.779 Rupert Isaacson: you 01:08:18.009 --> 01:08:21.359 Craig Foster: know, nature, all this biodiversity, as we, as we 01:08:21.359 --> 01:08:23.419 try to control her ironically. 01:08:24.229 --> 01:08:29.959 We put her more and more in control, and that's what we're feeling today. 01:08:30.439 --> 01:08:36.829 We're feeling you know, the, the, the implications of that as she just 01:08:36.829 --> 01:08:41.089 starts to exert her force upon us. 01:08:41.129 --> 01:08:44.979 And we see that even in the climate now in so many ways. 01:08:45.039 --> 01:08:47.039 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, that's just what the political liberals are saying. 01:08:47.049 --> 01:08:49.719 You know, if you were a true Republican, Craig, you'd see 01:08:49.719 --> 01:08:50.829 through all that climate stuff. 01:08:56.909 --> 01:08:57.779 Craig Foster: Good luck with that. 01:08:59.609 --> 01:09:01.729 Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think a lot of the people sadly who, who, who feel 01:09:01.729 --> 01:09:07.849 that won't be around to see the the changes that are coming or in place. 01:09:08.229 --> 01:09:10.909 Yeah, well, that's, that's actually where I wanted to go next. 01:09:10.929 --> 01:09:15.859 Obviously we should preserve all biodiversity because we just can't 01:09:15.859 --> 01:09:18.149 survive without it, you know, just for purely selfish reasons. 01:09:18.749 --> 01:09:21.499 We should preserve it for the, for the reasons of connection, 01:09:23.049 --> 01:09:25.879 happiness, and awe, and just justice. 01:09:25.899 --> 01:09:27.279 We should preserve it as well. 01:09:28.819 --> 01:09:32.944 But, Everyone has a part of the planet. 01:09:32.964 --> 01:09:33.854 Everyone has a, 01:09:36.324 --> 01:09:37.624 an environment that's dear to them. 01:09:37.914 --> 01:09:39.874 And I know that the sea forest is dear to you. 01:09:41.594 --> 01:09:46.684 Can you, just as, I, I, I know that you will need to go fairly soon. 01:09:47.394 --> 01:09:53.314 And I want to make this just the first of two more, because there's, there's so much 01:09:53.314 --> 01:09:55.654 more I want to ask you on these topics. 01:09:56.534 --> 01:09:57.924 Um, we, we haven't discussed them. 01:09:58.664 --> 01:10:02.524 the ancestors and that spirit world and so on and so on. 01:10:02.704 --> 01:10:07.984 Um, let alone the altered state of the cold water and what that does. 01:10:08.719 --> 01:10:15.899 But, and I want to do that why should we give a shit about some seaweed off 01:10:15.919 --> 01:10:22.839 the coast of a little spit sticking off a bit of rocky land over there? 01:10:23.179 --> 01:10:24.419 Why should we give a fuck about that? 01:10:26.149 --> 01:10:29.799 Surely it could use a nice big McDonald's, you know, overlooking 01:10:29.799 --> 01:10:32.089 the, we could clear that those rocks. 01:10:32.089 --> 01:10:35.739 The beach, obviously we keep for obvious reasons, but, you know, 01:10:36.159 --> 01:10:40.649 why, why, why should we give a shit about this patch of seaweed? 01:10:42.444 --> 01:10:45.224 Craig Foster: I think first of all so I'm just laughing because the way 01:10:45.224 --> 01:10:50.194 you said it was so funny, but it is what we have here is one of the great 01:10:50.374 --> 01:10:52.534 biodiversity hotspots in the world. 01:10:53.924 --> 01:11:00.154 And these hotspots are where there's an enormous amount of biodiversity and they 01:11:00.154 --> 01:11:06.614 are really these places of Extreme hope, because if we can, what we desperately 01:11:06.614 --> 01:11:13.504 need to do, if we want to survive as a species into the future, we need to allow 01:11:13.534 --> 01:11:19.354 this incredible biological intelligence and this biodiversity to regenerate and 01:11:19.354 --> 01:11:23.784 the best places to allow the biodiversity regenerate are from these hotspots. 01:11:24.769 --> 01:11:31.309 And just remember that 65 percent plus of the oxygen that all of us are 01:11:31.309 --> 01:11:36.969 breathing is coming from the ocean, coming from the phytoplankton in the ocean. 01:11:37.909 --> 01:11:43.279 You can be living in the, you know, deepest city in the world and you'll 01:11:43.289 --> 01:11:48.229 still be breathing oxygen created by phytoplankton plants that live in the 01:11:48.249 --> 01:11:50.159 ocean on the surface of the ocean. 01:11:50.319 --> 01:11:55.749 So these biodiversity hotspots are where, you know, this phytoplankton 01:11:55.759 --> 01:11:57.549 is blooming at a very high level. 01:11:57.559 --> 01:12:01.219 So it's literally, you give a shit if you want to. 01:12:02.754 --> 01:12:08.334 survive as a species, or if you care in any way about any young people and their 01:12:08.334 --> 01:12:15.434 survival and their quality of life, that would be another major important factor. 01:12:16.964 --> 01:12:22.654 And also if you care about these incredible animals, These, this, 01:12:22.704 --> 01:12:26.084 these wild kin that we've lived with from the beginning of time, 01:12:26.084 --> 01:12:27.634 they literally are our family. 01:12:27.664 --> 01:12:29.504 They are our ancestors. 01:12:30.004 --> 01:12:35.204 We come from them and we only survive and live because they exist. 01:12:36.224 --> 01:12:45.604 Um, so there are, you know, And just because of the magnificence of the 01:12:45.614 --> 01:12:54.104 system, this extraordinary, mysterious thing that's happened where in 13. 01:12:54.104 --> 01:13:01.624 7 billion years, galaxies and giant cosmic clouds of the Dust and brimstone 01:13:01.664 --> 01:13:04.594 have turned into millions upon millions, 01:13:08.284 --> 01:13:13.274 millions of these incredible creatures and plants that keep us alive. 01:13:13.274 --> 01:13:15.954 I mean, it's literally, we're living in a miracle. 01:13:16.094 --> 01:13:21.304 Why would you want to destroy that miracle and us in the process? 01:13:21.304 --> 01:13:24.964 There's no, what's the logic of that to have, you know, another 01:13:24.964 --> 01:13:28.394 car or a bigger bank account that there's no, there's no good reason. 01:13:29.574 --> 01:13:32.514 Rupert Isaacson: When you're in the forest there, what does it look like? 01:13:33.024 --> 01:13:33.954 What does it feel like? 01:13:35.604 --> 01:13:38.994 Craig Foster: It's a three dimensional underwater space. 01:13:39.314 --> 01:13:44.634 So you imagine being in an underwater forest where there's reverse gravity. 01:13:45.824 --> 01:13:49.514 So you can dive down and then just push gently and off the 01:13:49.514 --> 01:13:52.094 bottom and fly into the canopy. 01:13:53.004 --> 01:13:57.804 Um, there are creatures moving around in that three dimensional space. 01:13:57.804 --> 01:14:00.124 They live in all parts of the three dimensions. 01:14:00.124 --> 01:14:01.384 It's not like a coral reef. 01:14:01.384 --> 01:14:03.334 It's two dimensional in comparison. 01:14:04.094 --> 01:14:08.484 Some of the kelp is You know, 45 feet deep. 01:14:08.494 --> 01:14:12.034 So, you know, three dimensional 45 foot space. 01:14:12.624 --> 01:14:17.034 The light is even in the middle of the day is being cut into. 01:14:18.149 --> 01:14:23.399 Beams by the leaves of the, and the canopy and there's coming down in these beams 01:14:23.399 --> 01:14:26.659 and as the water moves, the beams flash. 01:14:27.269 --> 01:14:34.439 So it's very powerful lighting in this kind of cathedral like, experience. 01:14:34.889 --> 01:14:40.979 Um, you know, the the, the water is generally quite cold. 01:14:41.639 --> 01:14:42.669 So you've got all the. 01:14:43.154 --> 01:14:47.734 The amazing brain chemicals rushing through you that, that occur in the 01:14:47.734 --> 01:14:52.154 cold, you get quite used to it after a while and these amazing creatures with 01:14:52.154 --> 01:14:56.894 extraordinary sensory systems living in this space that are watching you. 01:14:57.464 --> 01:15:01.494 And they are measuring your heartbeat, they're measuring your muscle tension, 01:15:02.274 --> 01:15:09.034 and they are reacting based upon your body language and the way you are moving. 01:15:11.724 --> 01:15:14.854 Rupert Isaacson: You've written about the need to, and you've talked here 01:15:14.854 --> 01:15:17.084 about the need to learn relaxation. 01:15:18.364 --> 01:15:19.374 This is difficult. 01:15:20.414 --> 01:15:21.044 in cold. 01:15:22.284 --> 01:15:25.274 So the first thing, and then first thing is how do you learn 01:15:25.274 --> 01:15:26.794 to relax in cold like that? 01:15:26.964 --> 01:15:31.294 And I don't just mean ice baths because I know lots of people who take ice 01:15:31.294 --> 01:15:34.874 baths and I've watched them do it and I wouldn't say they're necessarily 01:15:34.874 --> 01:15:36.174 terribly relaxed when they do it. 01:15:36.944 --> 01:15:39.574 Some seem to learn how to do it, but you're talking about a very different, 01:15:40.084 --> 01:15:44.164 it's a type of relaxation that can let an octopus let go of you or allow 01:15:44.164 --> 01:15:47.104 yourself to not panic when wedged. 01:15:47.674 --> 01:15:48.594 Underwater. 01:15:49.194 --> 01:15:52.904 How do you survive in this cold without bracing? 01:15:52.904 --> 01:15:54.044 That's the question number one. 01:15:54.434 --> 01:15:57.964 The second question is, 01:16:00.504 --> 01:16:05.524 can you describe some interactions 01:16:07.594 --> 01:16:13.124 beyond, say, the escape from that octopus, that have allowed 01:16:13.134 --> 01:16:15.954 you to use that relaxation 01:16:18.134 --> 01:16:22.394 to enter the world of the creatures in this forest? 01:16:25.249 --> 01:16:27.389 And what, what have they shown you? 01:16:27.659 --> 01:16:28.479 So how do you relax? 01:16:28.509 --> 01:16:30.369 How do you learn to relax in that cold water? 01:16:30.929 --> 01:16:35.779 And then when you have this relaxation, where does it bring you? 01:16:37.699 --> 01:16:38.719 Craig Foster: So, I mean, 01:16:41.789 --> 01:16:44.639 of course you have to get your body used to the water. 01:16:44.819 --> 01:16:49.179 So ideally you start in summer, you go in for short periods of time. 01:16:49.319 --> 01:16:52.609 You don't want to put too much cold stress on the system. 01:16:53.419 --> 01:16:57.659 So you adapt your body slowly to that environment. 01:16:58.284 --> 01:17:04.514 What I do is I visualize, I don't try to push the cold away, I, I imagine 01:17:04.514 --> 01:17:09.824 the cold actually going through inside my body and flowing through 01:17:09.824 --> 01:17:14.484 it and activating a kind of heat, and that's kind of what is happening. 01:17:14.964 --> 01:17:17.724 They are brown fat adipose tissue. 01:17:18.124 --> 01:17:23.134 That develops when you expose yourself to cold and that acts like a internal heating 01:17:23.134 --> 01:17:25.584 system and it actually heats your body up. 01:17:26.204 --> 01:17:29.654 And this is something that all early people would have had. 01:17:29.754 --> 01:17:33.494 If you, if you living indoors a lot and you're not exposed to cold, 01:17:33.504 --> 01:17:36.524 these, this, this brown fat dwindles. 01:17:37.124 --> 01:17:41.414 So the body is totally adapt, you know, it's ready for this process. 01:17:42.164 --> 01:17:45.764 And then you can visualize this just flowing through you and you 01:17:45.764 --> 01:17:51.824 just have to actively just calm oneself and not tense the body. 01:17:51.834 --> 01:17:54.674 You just, just relax every limb. 01:17:55.234 --> 01:17:59.434 If people aren't used to it, they'll hold themselves and they'll tense their arms. 01:18:00.119 --> 01:18:02.499 One's got to do the opposite because you don't want that 01:18:02.509 --> 01:18:04.339 cortisol to flood the system. 01:18:04.979 --> 01:18:06.309 That's not great for you. 01:18:06.809 --> 01:18:09.709 You want that dopamine and the noradrenaline and so 01:18:09.719 --> 01:18:11.269 on to, to be going there. 01:18:11.889 --> 01:18:18.419 So I've had amazing experiences with say a cap clawless otters numerous 01:18:18.419 --> 01:18:20.369 occasions they have approached me. 01:18:20.949 --> 01:18:23.899 And this is a very, normally a very, very shy animal. 01:18:24.579 --> 01:18:27.719 And then if you keep still enough and your body's relaxed enough 01:18:28.319 --> 01:18:31.599 very, very occasionally they will then make physical contact. 01:18:32.079 --> 01:18:37.089 And when an animal like that makes physical contact, and then even you 01:18:37.089 --> 01:18:41.814 know, one of the Most profound times is when an animal started touching 01:18:41.814 --> 01:18:46.724 my feet and then moved up my body and then looked in my eyes and started to 01:18:47.124 --> 01:18:52.684 touch my face with its amazing little dexterous hands, their clawless hands. 01:18:53.294 --> 01:18:55.624 It does affect one quite radically. 01:18:55.784 --> 01:18:57.809 And if that animal then, 01:19:00.199 --> 01:19:04.949 feels that you aren't a threat, it will allow you to hunt with it. 01:19:05.029 --> 01:19:08.529 And that's when the real teaching and learning happens, because then you can 01:19:08.529 --> 01:19:15.339 see how these animals are hunting, how incredibly powerful they are, how clever 01:19:15.339 --> 01:19:20.429 they are, and all these amazing techniques they use to catch different animals and 01:19:20.429 --> 01:19:22.479 how clever the prey is in avoiding them. 01:19:22.479 --> 01:19:28.039 And I mean, the otters took me years to figure out that there were these species 01:19:28.039 --> 01:19:34.264 of fish that were hiding themselves upside down in the caves in the algae and they 01:19:34.264 --> 01:19:39.434 turn upside down so that their eyes can look out of the algae to see the otters 01:19:40.644 --> 01:19:41.944 as they're coming through the cave. 01:19:41.974 --> 01:19:46.144 So you learn about not just the animal that has trusted you, but of course 01:19:46.144 --> 01:19:49.644 about all their prey and their predators. 01:19:49.644 --> 01:19:53.116 And you just, these animals teach you about all the animals 01:19:53.116 --> 01:19:54.617 that they interact with. 01:19:54.617 --> 01:20:00.204 So if you're just getting to know an otter or an octopus or a limpet. 01:20:00.914 --> 01:20:05.114 They will naturally, if you just chose only those three, you would 01:20:05.114 --> 01:20:10.514 learn about the lives of hundreds of these animals because they're the web 01:20:10.594 --> 01:20:12.864 of life is connected in every way. 01:20:12.904 --> 01:20:14.974 There's no thread that's not connected. 01:20:15.654 --> 01:20:19.464 And that's why if we pull on one thread, we pull on everything. 01:20:19.884 --> 01:20:22.754 And that's what we've got to be so much more careful of as humans. 01:20:22.754 --> 01:20:25.974 We've been pulling on all the wrong threads for too long. 01:20:27.654 --> 01:20:27.944 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:20:27.994 --> 01:20:29.594 We've been like, like. 01:20:31.224 --> 01:20:35.484 Somebody anxious and fidgety in a wool jumper pulling at the threads 01:20:35.484 --> 01:20:39.564 of the garment that keeps us warm and unraveling it as we wear it. 01:20:40.244 --> 01:20:43.804 When you, when you, an animal shows you how it hunts and you can stay with it, 01:20:44.484 --> 01:20:46.474 then they begin to move athletically. 01:20:46.484 --> 01:20:50.914 How do you, how do you stay with them with that same relaxation 01:20:50.914 --> 01:20:53.124 without pulsating your body? 01:20:53.599 --> 01:20:55.529 in ways that will spook the animal. 01:20:55.529 --> 01:21:03.019 How do you keep that relaxation going even when there's a need to move strongly or 01:21:03.149 --> 01:21:04.869 at least to stay close to this animal? 01:21:05.509 --> 01:21:08.229 Craig Foster: See, what you've got to try and do is not they're quite 01:21:08.289 --> 01:21:14.329 they're very sensitive to pressure waves and to sound so you don't ever want 01:21:14.339 --> 01:21:16.669 to slap a hand on top of the water. 01:21:17.719 --> 01:21:21.879 You are very careful how you put your hand into the water and pull. 01:21:22.599 --> 01:21:27.349 You're very careful to never slap a fin on top of the water. 01:21:27.409 --> 01:21:31.179 You, each thrust is long and slow and gentle. 01:21:31.589 --> 01:21:33.559 You're often pulling yourself along. 01:21:33.919 --> 01:21:38.009 So what's nice about the kelp forest is it's, you know, it's, you've 01:21:38.009 --> 01:21:40.799 got, you know, Reverse gravity. 01:21:40.799 --> 01:21:42.819 So you can pull yourself along. 01:21:42.839 --> 01:21:46.309 I'm making myself neutrally buoyant with a weight belt. 01:21:46.349 --> 01:21:50.059 And then you can pull yourself along from strand to strand from, 01:21:50.079 --> 01:21:51.639 from stipe to stipe as well. 01:21:51.659 --> 01:21:55.769 So you, you're trying to reduce all the pressure waves, reduce all 01:21:55.769 --> 01:22:00.859 the sounds and try not to have too much muscle tension, especially the 01:22:00.859 --> 01:22:02.759 sharks can feel the muscle tension. 01:22:02.769 --> 01:22:04.419 Some of the other animals, less so. 01:22:08.709 --> 01:22:09.439 Rupert Isaacson: Sharks. 01:22:10.459 --> 01:22:15.699 There's a lot of them on your coast, including some pretty big gnarly ones. 01:22:16.469 --> 01:22:17.709 You have great whites there. 01:22:18.899 --> 01:22:22.099 How do you interact and stay safe with them? 01:22:22.754 --> 01:22:24.554 and relax around. 01:22:27.144 --> 01:22:31.074 Craig Foster: So I mean, a thing with sharks is it's quite important 01:22:31.074 --> 01:22:34.384 to make a visual contact with them. 01:22:34.674 --> 01:22:39.804 So as soon as you've made visual contact, then they generally, it's pretty 01:22:39.804 --> 01:22:42.784 safe, no matter what species they are. 01:22:42.814 --> 01:22:43.434 Why is that? 01:22:44.104 --> 01:22:48.124 Because they're a predator, and they know that you're looking at them, 01:22:48.134 --> 01:22:53.024 you know that you've seen them, and they rely often on sneak attacks. 01:22:53.854 --> 01:22:58.644 But you're quite safe, luckily, as a human with sharks, because their 01:22:58.644 --> 01:23:02.524 search image, when they look at you with all their sensory system, you're 01:23:02.524 --> 01:23:04.834 not generally coming up as prey. 01:23:06.974 --> 01:23:08.384 You're a strange thing. 01:23:08.844 --> 01:23:10.234 You're moving wrongly. 01:23:10.244 --> 01:23:11.344 You don't look right. 01:23:11.344 --> 01:23:12.424 You don't smell right. 01:23:12.424 --> 01:23:15.034 You've got a strange electrical signature. 01:23:15.244 --> 01:23:17.014 They generally don't come up as prey. 01:23:17.394 --> 01:23:24.739 But, You want to be often upright in the water that, that makes them, you 01:23:24.739 --> 01:23:30.569 look even less like a prey and you want to be generally keeping quite still. 01:23:30.569 --> 01:23:34.799 You don't want to be moving fast away from them, you know, like a, a cat, 01:23:34.799 --> 01:23:39.079 you know, if you pull a string and it wants to go for it just keeping. 01:23:39.309 --> 01:23:42.259 Your heart rate down, keeping your breathing down cause they 01:23:42.259 --> 01:23:43.519 can sense a lot of these things. 01:23:43.519 --> 01:23:49.199 And as I say, keeping your muscles relaxed, then they will see you not, 01:23:50.099 --> 01:23:56.259 not as prey and they'll see you also not as necessarily maybe another predator 01:23:56.259 --> 01:24:00.199 there, but you don't want to push them or intimidate them too much as well. 01:24:00.199 --> 01:24:02.959 You'd want to be kind of neutral in that space. 01:24:03.339 --> 01:24:03.859 And eye contact 01:24:04.209 --> 01:24:04.959 Rupert Isaacson: doesn't trigger them. 01:24:05.479 --> 01:24:07.059 Like it might other types of predator. 01:24:08.399 --> 01:24:11.969 Craig Foster: No, I mean, it's good to have eye contact because then they 01:24:11.969 --> 01:24:15.449 know you've seen them, they know you there it's when you're not looking 01:24:15.449 --> 01:24:17.559 that they'll be, they'll come closer. 01:24:18.619 --> 01:24:24.399 Um, and sometimes, you know, we've been say trying to film these bigger animals 01:24:24.399 --> 01:24:28.709 and you actually have to try and make your body small and not very intimidating 01:24:28.709 --> 01:24:30.029 to try and get closer to them. 01:24:30.029 --> 01:24:31.639 They, they, they quite wary. 01:24:31.649 --> 01:24:35.049 It's not sharks are not you know, how they've been, you 01:24:35.049 --> 01:24:36.554 know, depicted on television. 01:24:36.594 --> 01:24:38.414 That's not, they're not like that. 01:24:38.904 --> 01:24:46.014 Rupert Isaacson: You describe in the book a, an episode where you're, I believe it 01:24:46.014 --> 01:24:48.304 is Great Whites, and you're close to them. 01:24:49.114 --> 01:24:52.854 And again, this theme of relaxation seems to come in. 01:24:53.134 --> 01:24:57.569 But then you say at a certain point, they, open their mouth, they gape as a 01:24:57.569 --> 01:25:00.509 way of saying, okay, that's enough now. 01:25:00.529 --> 01:25:00.899 Or 01:25:03.079 --> 01:25:07.699 what made you feel that that was a safe situation to put yourself in? 01:25:08.659 --> 01:25:11.039 And how do you know to navigate it? 01:25:12.379 --> 01:25:17.619 Craig Foster: So with the white sharks and I've had, you know, help 01:25:17.619 --> 01:25:22.759 from people who spent many years just concentrating on that species. 01:25:23.319 --> 01:25:27.459 And this applies to quite a few sharks as well. 01:25:27.839 --> 01:25:31.099 If the water is clear, it's much safer. 01:25:31.789 --> 01:25:35.359 And especially with white sharks, if you can see the bottom where you're 01:25:35.359 --> 01:25:39.629 diving, it's much safer because they can like to come underneath. 01:25:40.359 --> 01:25:45.619 So if you, if the water's clear, it's calm, the animals are relaxed. 01:25:46.159 --> 01:25:50.399 You know, it's not I believe overly dangerous if you're used to being in 01:25:50.399 --> 01:25:52.949 the water and you're not overly fearful. 01:25:53.309 --> 01:25:55.349 To dive with a great white shark. 01:25:55.349 --> 01:25:57.559 It's not overly dangerous. 01:25:58.199 --> 01:25:59.789 But you also have to know the signs. 01:25:59.789 --> 01:26:04.219 And as you say, this, this gaping, this, this fairly subtle opening of 01:26:04.219 --> 01:26:08.089 the mouth is a very clear indication that they don't want you there anymore. 01:26:08.694 --> 01:26:13.374 And then you have to slowly slowly and very gently move out of their space. 01:26:13.924 --> 01:26:17.634 But, you know, I've, I've dived with so many different species 01:26:17.634 --> 01:26:22.754 of shark, big sharks, great whites, tiger sharks, bull sharks. 01:26:23.184 --> 01:26:27.414 And I've never been threatened by one of those animals or, you 01:26:27.414 --> 01:26:32.134 know, in any way aggression shown to me in fact, quite the opposite. 01:26:32.734 --> 01:26:36.234 And many people who've dived with sharks will tell you the same story. 01:26:36.514 --> 01:26:38.634 It's the absolute aberration. 01:26:39.094 --> 01:26:43.474 You know, when someone gets attacked and it's often, you know, 01:26:43.504 --> 01:26:49.474 curiosity or a shark that's maybe highly compromised or blind or. 01:26:49.929 --> 01:26:51.099 Starving or something. 01:26:51.469 --> 01:26:53.579 It's very, very, it's a very rare thing. 01:26:53.579 --> 01:26:57.509 These sharks are not, we're not on their prey list. 01:26:57.559 --> 01:27:00.729 So it's it's far more dangerous driving down to the beach than 01:27:00.729 --> 01:27:02.069 to be diving with these animals. 01:27:03.659 --> 01:27:07.959 Rupert Isaacson: There is of course, a waterborne predator that we know does 01:27:07.959 --> 01:27:09.669 take people pretty regularly in Africa. 01:27:10.509 --> 01:27:13.169 I myself was attacked by one when I was seven. 01:27:13.729 --> 01:27:15.669 Oh, only got. 01:27:16.329 --> 01:27:17.009 Away. 01:27:17.059 --> 01:27:19.819 We were in Zimbabwe which where my dad's from. 01:27:20.379 --> 01:27:28.669 And a biologist had penned some, including a big 14 footer, 01:27:29.739 --> 01:27:30.929 and they took us into the pen. 01:27:30.929 --> 01:27:32.509 They were observing them for us. 01:27:32.579 --> 01:27:33.779 I can't remember what they were studying. 01:27:34.379 --> 01:27:36.629 Because what happened next obliterated everything else from my mind. 01:27:36.629 --> 01:27:38.709 And we're supposed to keep our distance. 01:27:38.739 --> 01:27:41.979 And for some reason I didn't for some reason, I, I walked too close and 01:27:42.429 --> 01:27:44.479 I remember the rush of the water. 01:27:44.889 --> 01:27:48.834 luckily the biologists had run up behind me and grabbed me by the 01:27:48.834 --> 01:27:50.464 collar, pulled me up the back. 01:27:50.654 --> 01:27:52.954 This, of course, we're talking is a crocodile, the Nile 01:27:52.954 --> 01:27:54.394 crocodile, immensely dangerous. 01:27:54.434 --> 01:27:56.734 You open your book with a 01:27:59.464 --> 01:28:05.734 very exciting passage in which you are going into the water to 01:28:05.734 --> 01:28:09.234 film one of these in the water. 01:28:09.904 --> 01:28:14.564 You've been warned by the guide who's taking you in, who knows them 01:28:14.564 --> 01:28:18.084 quite well, that It's possible that you might not survive the dive. 01:28:19.444 --> 01:28:26.174 And again, it seems to me that this theme of relaxation comes in here. 01:28:27.364 --> 01:28:29.214 Can you just describe 01:28:31.784 --> 01:28:34.444 what, what happened there? 01:28:34.484 --> 01:28:35.824 What you did? 01:28:35.984 --> 01:28:36.324 Sure. 01:28:36.444 --> 01:28:36.674 Sure. 01:28:36.884 --> 01:28:37.974 Craig Foster: I mean, you, you're right. 01:28:38.374 --> 01:28:40.674 Crocodiles are very, very different to shark. 01:28:41.354 --> 01:28:45.194 This is an animal that does see humans very much as prey. 01:28:45.274 --> 01:28:46.524 We're the perfect size. 01:28:46.524 --> 01:28:47.624 We're nice and slow. 01:28:48.184 --> 01:28:49.924 You know, it's, they're perfect. 01:28:49.934 --> 01:28:54.804 So, and I certainly would never dive with crocodiles again. 01:28:55.614 --> 01:29:00.314 Um, this was a time earlier in my life where I don't think I was as 01:29:00.314 --> 01:29:05.884 sensible as I am now, but we were still using a lot of knowledge of, 01:29:06.024 --> 01:29:08.154 of animals we were doing a film. 01:29:10.384 --> 01:29:14.434 With my brother Damon Roger Horrocks, who's a great close 01:29:14.434 --> 01:29:16.039 friend, and Didier Noureau. 01:29:16.099 --> 01:29:23.009 And we were in the Okavango Delta and the idea in the film was to see if we could 01:29:23.009 --> 01:29:27.539 get inside what we call the dragon's lair where these crocodiles drag their prey. 01:29:28.229 --> 01:29:29.724 And it seemed to be a pretty interesting idea. 01:29:29.834 --> 01:29:35.474 nine impossible thing and then this one extraordinary animal we encountered 01:29:35.754 --> 01:29:39.974 and we thought it might be possible and we followed this animal down this long 01:29:40.614 --> 01:29:46.164 tunnel into the back of its lair and it was very powerful interesting experience 01:29:46.164 --> 01:29:51.414 and this animal allowed us to be in that place but it was absolutely terrifying. 01:29:52.054 --> 01:29:57.464 Um, and certainly Roger and Didier and to some extent my brother were 01:29:57.494 --> 01:29:59.954 sort of doing more of the diving. 01:29:59.954 --> 01:30:04.244 I did several dives with these crocodiles, but it was I think what is happening, 01:30:04.254 --> 01:30:10.839 Rupert, is I was, I was desperate to find this wildness that I was, I'd 01:30:10.839 --> 01:30:15.509 be, we've been talking about, and I felt that maybe I could find it there. 01:30:15.519 --> 01:30:19.939 And the great irony was it was lying in those little limpet shells, right 01:30:20.109 --> 01:30:25.289 where I, on the coast where I, where I'd left, you know, the, the real connection 01:30:25.289 --> 01:30:31.849 to deep nature comes not from extreme experiences that you have very seldom. 01:30:31.849 --> 01:30:34.759 It's from repeated experiences with animals. 01:30:34.759 --> 01:30:38.909 You get to know better and better in environments that are easy to access. 01:30:39.514 --> 01:30:39.894 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:30:39.934 --> 01:30:43.614 I think for the young male, there is this rite of passage thing, 01:30:43.614 --> 01:30:46.074 this desire to test oneself. 01:30:46.754 --> 01:30:49.364 That's also part of the hunter gatherer thing, I suppose. 01:30:49.374 --> 01:30:50.034 It must be. 01:30:50.404 --> 01:30:52.404 You know, there you are, at a certain point you have to 01:30:52.414 --> 01:30:54.104 take your spear and now go. 01:30:54.834 --> 01:30:57.664 But is that what was going on with you at that point? 01:30:57.674 --> 01:31:02.264 Was it, was it part of almost seeking initiation somehow to 01:31:02.294 --> 01:31:05.424 put yourself consciously at risk? 01:31:08.354 --> 01:31:10.594 Understand more to connect more. 01:31:11.484 --> 01:31:15.794 Craig Foster: I mean, it was partly as our job was wildlife filmmaking 01:31:15.794 --> 01:31:17.704 and human animal interaction. 01:31:17.714 --> 01:31:20.394 So it was part of the job in some ways. 01:31:20.444 --> 01:31:27.844 I, I think the young ego is certainly looking for affirmation. 01:31:28.114 --> 01:31:31.494 But I think that. 01:31:33.589 --> 01:31:38.299 That ego can often be, like we talked about earlier, can be 01:31:40.629 --> 01:31:45.779 imbalanced by the strange world that we find ourselves in. 01:31:45.779 --> 01:31:50.239 You know, this is the most, this is the strangest environment that any 01:31:50.239 --> 01:31:52.159 human has ever tried to live in. 01:31:52.169 --> 01:31:54.049 This is utterly foreign to us. 01:31:54.669 --> 01:31:56.649 So what is that psyche? 01:31:56.649 --> 01:31:59.789 What does that ego try to do in this very strange world? 01:31:59.789 --> 01:32:03.869 It tries to reconnect with the wild and sometimes it might do very 01:32:03.869 --> 01:32:05.769 stupid things to try and do that. 01:32:06.319 --> 01:32:10.289 It's not just about initiation, because I had had quite a 01:32:10.289 --> 01:32:12.099 few initiations before that. 01:32:12.709 --> 01:32:16.769 So I think it's it's about not knowing where to turn in many ways, and 01:32:17.259 --> 01:32:19.389 certainly a big sense of adventure. 01:32:19.479 --> 01:32:24.039 And luckily, you know, no one was hurt, but it could have, it could have been, 01:32:24.079 --> 01:32:29.609 I don't think it's in a It's certainly something I wouldn't try again so, 01:32:29.669 --> 01:32:33.369 we were fortunate and we did take as many precautions as we could, but it, 01:32:33.379 --> 01:32:34.949 you know, there's not much you can do. 01:32:35.249 --> 01:32:36.744 Why did this particular crocodile 01:32:36.744 --> 01:32:39.569 Rupert Isaacson: let you into its den and why didn't it attack you? 01:32:41.379 --> 01:32:47.079 Craig Foster: It's partly mysterious and it's partly because I think we 01:32:47.079 --> 01:32:51.229 look very strange to that animal, you know, you, you're on scuba, you're 01:32:51.229 --> 01:32:55.849 breathing bubbles you've got this, you know, strange equipment, there's 01:32:55.849 --> 01:32:57.799 a strange sound coming off you. 01:32:58.159 --> 01:33:02.569 This animal is probably thinking, what is this thing? 01:33:02.579 --> 01:33:04.079 It doesn't know what you are. 01:33:04.089 --> 01:33:05.479 It doesn't know if you're dangerous. 01:33:05.479 --> 01:33:07.699 You're not, you're not running away from it. 01:33:07.749 --> 01:33:10.719 Almost everything runs away from a giant crocodile. 01:33:11.199 --> 01:33:15.709 So if we're not running away from it, when it approaches, we're not backing away 01:33:15.749 --> 01:33:17.884 because that's asking for big trouble. 01:33:18.424 --> 01:33:23.144 So it's thinking, well, maybe this thing is dangerous, but this particular animal 01:33:23.144 --> 01:33:24.894 is something was special about it. 01:33:24.944 --> 01:33:26.954 It was hard to say exactly. 01:33:27.434 --> 01:33:31.874 But we had encounters with many of the other crocs and some of them were 01:33:32.224 --> 01:33:37.344 you know, a bit more, I wouldn't say aggressive, but just came really close, 01:33:37.374 --> 01:33:39.804 but many of them were quite submissive. 01:33:39.964 --> 01:33:42.314 And I think it was because, and we had lights as well. 01:33:42.354 --> 01:33:46.674 And these cameras, there's a very strange thing to, for them to be seeing underwater 01:33:46.684 --> 01:33:49.194 unfamiliar and not backing away. 01:33:49.204 --> 01:33:49.394 Yeah. 01:33:49.974 --> 01:33:51.624 Rupert Isaacson: But like aliens coming down. 01:33:52.544 --> 01:33:53.014 Craig Foster: Yeah. 01:33:53.324 --> 01:33:53.684 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:33:54.264 --> 01:34:00.074 It does make one wonder though I mean, I know from knowing you, but also 01:34:00.424 --> 01:34:03.474 seeing the work that you've done and the place you've done it, that you 01:34:03.474 --> 01:34:07.794 seem to have been allowed to experience 01:34:10.404 --> 01:34:16.904 the shamanic at work through animals, whether it, and nature in general, just 01:34:17.464 --> 01:34:23.464 Numerous times in a way that defies rational logic, whether it's that 01:34:25.664 --> 01:34:29.004 sharing space with a crocodile in the den, whether it's being able 01:34:29.004 --> 01:34:34.884 to witness Karoa doing that running hunt, which really one ought not to 01:34:34.884 --> 01:34:36.724 be able to film or capture on film. 01:34:36.734 --> 01:34:41.644 And somehow it happened for you guys to be able to witness that, that, 01:34:42.754 --> 01:34:44.094 and I'm sure many other things. 01:34:44.144 --> 01:34:47.004 Just to conclude here, because I want to pick this up again. 01:34:47.624 --> 01:34:54.374 The next time we talk, you, you also describe a very particular combination of 01:34:54.374 --> 01:35:00.164 the indigenous African world with the sea. 01:35:03.484 --> 01:35:09.024 You'd mentioned Otters and it was in that you were having a relationship with 01:35:11.474 --> 01:35:19.304 a lady called Charmaine, I believe, and who happened to be also Zulu and Ganga. 01:35:21.524 --> 01:35:24.544 Can we, I know we're running down on time here. 01:35:24.854 --> 01:35:27.334 Can we leave this part of the conversation? 01:35:27.364 --> 01:35:28.164 Can you tell us? 01:35:29.224 --> 01:35:33.634 what happened there and why you think. 01:35:34.804 --> 01:35:37.244 You were able to witness something like that and what 01:35:37.254 --> 01:35:38.634 did it, what did it teach you? 01:35:43.444 --> 01:35:46.914 Craig Foster: I think, yeah, this is a tough one to try and explain. 01:35:50.244 --> 01:35:51.754 Maybe describe is better than explain. 01:35:51.754 --> 01:35:53.384 You left the hard one to last. 01:35:53.384 --> 01:36:03.014 So, Edouard spent um, incredible three years with Charmaine Joseph Guaza, who 01:36:03.014 --> 01:36:05.799 was a, as you say, a traditional healer. 01:36:06.499 --> 01:36:12.029 Um, and I repeatedly witnessed 01:36:14.329 --> 01:36:16.149 quite a few things that were 01:36:18.199 --> 01:36:24.929 not explainable by my Western sort of scientific upbringing. 01:36:26.259 --> 01:36:32.039 It was impossible to understand or explain them through that window of reference. 01:36:35.764 --> 01:36:41.974 And today, still today, many of these things remain extremely mysterious. 01:36:43.664 --> 01:36:45.554 I think it's worth noting that 01:36:48.314 --> 01:36:57.234 even as accomplished and extraordinary as science is, science still only understands 01:36:57.894 --> 01:37:00.764 quite a small part of our world. 01:37:00.944 --> 01:37:04.744 Recently, you know, scientists have discovered dark matter and dark 01:37:04.764 --> 01:37:06.604 energy that apparently make up. 01:37:07.494 --> 01:37:09.784 I think 95 or more percent of. 01:37:11.044 --> 01:37:11.974 our world. 01:37:12.254 --> 01:37:16.124 And this, they see that there's this invisible world that has gravity, it 01:37:16.124 --> 01:37:20.504 has mass, it's there, but they can't even they can't, they can't see it. 01:37:20.504 --> 01:37:22.644 They can't measure it very easily. 01:37:22.654 --> 01:37:26.244 They can't even capture a few grams of it. 01:37:26.744 --> 01:37:27.194 So 01:37:29.734 --> 01:37:31.164 I think what we, 01:37:34.514 --> 01:37:38.884 We can easily get lulled into thinking that we understand reality and we 01:37:38.904 --> 01:37:41.464 understand the nature of our existence. 01:37:43.054 --> 01:37:49.944 The more one looks into it and the more one spends time with indigenous people, 01:37:49.944 --> 01:37:55.034 and especially in my case, indigenous people in Africa, you realize that the 01:37:55.034 --> 01:38:01.774 less and less one knows, and that the mysterious grows bigger and bigger, and 01:38:01.774 --> 01:38:09.414 that many of the things that one witnesses are not easily fitted into the world of 01:38:09.414 --> 01:38:17.249 science, but I'm quite fascinated in I think what is is called two eyed seeing, 01:38:17.609 --> 01:38:25.429 where you combine science and indigenous wisdom to try to figure out our reality. 01:38:25.449 --> 01:38:29.519 That becomes so interesting and so much more you can see 01:38:29.519 --> 01:38:31.749 a bigger picture of reality. 01:38:31.759 --> 01:38:35.259 And I'm not saying that all indigenous knowledge is mysterious. 01:38:35.259 --> 01:38:36.299 Of course it isn't. 01:38:36.819 --> 01:38:43.999 But I think there's so much to learn from people who are deeply connected. 01:38:44.369 --> 01:38:49.039 To the wild, to the ancestors, to the sacred that. 01:38:50.929 --> 01:38:54.679 Yeah, I mean, it's just a much richer world for that. 01:38:54.859 --> 01:38:59.449 And I also find it fascinating that, you know, 80 percent of the 01:38:59.449 --> 01:39:02.869 biodiversity on this planet is protected by indigenous people. 01:39:02.869 --> 01:39:08.269 So they, they, they know what is valuable. 01:39:08.484 --> 01:39:09.954 In the deepest, deepest sense. 01:39:09.964 --> 01:39:12.024 So we got so much to learn from that. 01:39:12.034 --> 01:39:16.064 And I think a lot of the hope, you know, it's easy to just look through the world 01:39:16.064 --> 01:39:20.334 of science and see this environmental crisis and be absolutely devastated by it. 01:39:20.974 --> 01:39:25.664 But I think a lot of the hope that certainly I draw from is from this 01:39:25.714 --> 01:39:32.114 wilder self from this indigenous wisdom that I've been privileged enough to, 01:39:32.234 --> 01:39:36.634 you know, be, be, be given access to. 01:39:37.344 --> 01:39:43.424 That there is this mystery that's out there that actually makes up quite a 01:39:43.424 --> 01:39:48.254 large part of our, our reality and that we're not sure what's going to happen. 01:39:48.254 --> 01:39:50.894 And certainly I think, 01:39:53.239 --> 01:39:56.479 There are a lot of forces at play that we have no idea what's going on. 01:39:57.089 --> 01:39:57.339 Yeah. 01:39:57.339 --> 01:39:59.929 I don't know if that skirts your question or answers it. 01:39:59.999 --> 01:40:01.469 Rupert Isaacson: I'm going to nail you down. 01:40:01.519 --> 01:40:06.249 I've seen obviously too, a lot of things which I can't compute from a, 01:40:06.909 --> 01:40:10.819 from a, you know, from a Western point of view, for example, I I've seen. 01:40:12.299 --> 01:40:18.739 A Cuckoo Yalanji Aboriginal shaman on my son, just with his fingers going up and 01:40:18.739 --> 01:40:21.849 down the spine, up and down the spine, up and down the spine, and the man wearing 01:40:21.859 --> 01:40:26.699 no shirt, so he couldn't hide anything, you know, and he was flicking his fingers 01:40:26.719 --> 01:40:34.309 into a ceramic cup, a chipped teacup, and as he was doing it, you know, I couldn't 01:40:34.309 --> 01:40:38.589 help but want to have a look inside, so I look in there, so does my ex Kristen, 01:40:39.269 --> 01:40:47.649 and what we see is, The cup is slowly filling with viscous, with little bloody 01:40:47.679 --> 01:40:50.339 filaments in it, like he snot, you know. 01:40:51.639 --> 01:40:54.809 And it's visibly before our eyes 01:40:57.129 --> 01:41:01.315 as he flicks his fingers from my son's spine into there. 01:41:01.315 --> 01:41:10.089 And at a certain point he chucks it into the fire, and Rowan gets 01:41:10.089 --> 01:41:13.899 up and says, my son, and says, I feel better, I feel clear headed. 01:41:14.889 --> 01:41:18.019 Which for him at that time to say something like that in his level of autism 01:41:18.019 --> 01:41:21.084 was, Not, you know, jaw dropping enough. 01:41:21.384 --> 01:41:24.569 We came back two successive days. 01:41:25.619 --> 01:41:29.729 And second day, less in the cup, the third day, almost none. 01:41:30.049 --> 01:41:31.099 And then he said, okay, it's fine. 01:41:31.619 --> 01:41:34.419 You know, he'll be, he'll be right. 01:41:35.619 --> 01:41:38.559 And then we had tea and toast cause as you know, with these mysterious 01:41:38.589 --> 01:41:41.759 things, it always comes to the mundane because there's no separation. 01:41:41.829 --> 01:41:43.799 That's the wonderful thing I love about indigenous culture. 01:41:44.179 --> 01:41:46.199 So I saw that I can't explain it. 01:41:46.439 --> 01:41:47.219 But there it was. 01:41:47.809 --> 01:41:50.229 And I also didn't just observe it happening, but I observed 01:41:50.229 --> 01:41:51.599 its ameliorative effect. 01:41:52.159 --> 01:41:55.029 That's obviously, and so many of us have spent any time. 01:41:55.784 --> 01:41:59.604 You know, I've been lucky enough to spend time with people who are less 01:41:59.644 --> 01:42:01.054 out of touch with their wild souls. 01:42:01.724 --> 01:42:03.354 have these stories. 01:42:04.484 --> 01:42:06.174 Tell us what happened on the beach that 01:42:06.174 --> 01:42:07.124 Craig Foster: day with Charmaine. 01:42:08.334 --> 01:42:13.234 So I think what you're referring to, cause there are a number of these occasions, 01:42:13.234 --> 01:42:15.644 but it was very early in the morning. 01:42:15.654 --> 01:42:16.674 It was kind of misty. 01:42:16.704 --> 01:42:20.934 We went down to a remote part of the, the coast And 01:42:23.534 --> 01:42:28.344 she asked me to be part of this ritual where essentially we were, we were 01:42:28.344 --> 01:42:32.294 supposed to be calling what she called them Dao, which is the water spirit, which 01:42:32.294 --> 01:42:38.864 is a an entity or a force that she'd been working with for a long time and was part 01:42:38.864 --> 01:42:40.634 of her culture and part of her training. 01:42:41.644 --> 01:42:49.834 Um, and I was still pretty skeptical in some ways of all these things, even though 01:42:49.834 --> 01:42:54.364 I'd seen some pretty strange things, but I was happy to go along with it. 01:42:54.384 --> 01:42:57.374 And I was very interested in the culture and what it meant. 01:42:57.374 --> 01:43:01.244 And I was had to have some of her blood in my one hand and 01:43:01.244 --> 01:43:02.944 a scorpion in the other hand. 01:43:02.944 --> 01:43:06.064 And I was went into the water. 01:43:06.764 --> 01:43:08.524 Rupert Isaacson: How do you hold a scorpion in your hand? 01:43:09.184 --> 01:43:09.494 Lisa. 01:43:09.534 --> 01:43:10.744 Oh, I just had a scorpion in my hand. 01:43:11.494 --> 01:43:12.764 Well, you pulled it out of your trousers. 01:43:12.794 --> 01:43:13.844 Craig Foster: That's so funny. 01:43:14.224 --> 01:43:18.254 So it was, I knew the scorpions in the area quite well, and there's a, a species 01:43:18.254 --> 01:43:20.844 that doesn't you know, sting very easily. 01:43:20.864 --> 01:43:24.014 And if you're calm with them, they, they, they're pretty chilled. 01:43:24.554 --> 01:43:28.674 So there was one there and then she just advised me what to do. 01:43:28.864 --> 01:43:32.994 So very carefully held that didn't in any way hurt it, went 01:43:33.024 --> 01:43:34.904 into the water up to my chest. 01:43:36.124 --> 01:43:42.684 She was intoning her the prayers behind and I was asked to, to connect to this 01:43:42.684 --> 01:43:44.404 water spirit in the best way I could. 01:43:44.984 --> 01:43:47.454 And then I came out thinking nothing was going to happen. 01:43:47.464 --> 01:43:48.584 Let the scorpion go. 01:43:49.109 --> 01:43:53.499 Very gently and we were walking back and the next minute I heard 01:43:53.499 --> 01:43:57.769 the splashing behind me and I looked around and there was a Cape Clawless 01:43:57.799 --> 01:44:03.029 otter right in the shallows staring straight at us and splashing water 01:44:03.049 --> 01:44:05.159 everywhere, which was very strange. 01:44:05.559 --> 01:44:08.289 And then Charmaine said, okay, let's go down to the water. 01:44:09.684 --> 01:44:13.564 And we walked and I thought the otter was just going to leave which it didn't. 01:44:13.654 --> 01:44:18.244 And we sat right next to it and this otter just flung water all over our bodies. 01:44:20.264 --> 01:44:26.114 And it appeared to be, strangely enough, the otter appeared to be quite frightened. 01:44:26.734 --> 01:44:30.094 It was, I've never seen anything like it before or since. 01:44:30.724 --> 01:44:34.794 It seemed to be being held in that space and it didn't want to be there. 01:44:35.789 --> 01:44:39.069 And it was splashing around in a very small area. 01:44:39.669 --> 01:44:43.779 And then Charmaine did some more prayers and suddenly this animal kind of, 01:44:45.819 --> 01:44:49.299 I don't know realized it could leave and it just shot away. 01:44:49.599 --> 01:44:52.664 And we were absolutely covered in water and I was just absolutely terrified. 01:44:53.484 --> 01:44:55.594 gobsmacked and know what was going on. 01:44:56.194 --> 01:44:59.514 Germaine was not in any way surprised. 01:44:59.914 --> 01:45:02.174 It was just like a normal day at the office for her. 01:45:02.934 --> 01:45:07.174 And you know, she just gently gave thanks and I was like, didn't know what the 01:45:07.174 --> 01:45:09.394 hell was going on and was fascinated. 01:45:09.394 --> 01:45:11.274 And then we, you know, left the area. 01:45:12.034 --> 01:45:14.194 Rupert Isaacson: Did she say what the purpose of the ritual was? 01:45:15.944 --> 01:45:20.114 Craig Foster: Yes, it was to basically give thanks and acknowledge this 01:45:20.124 --> 01:45:24.004 water spirit, this Mdao that she'd been working with for a long time. 01:45:24.594 --> 01:45:29.724 And she interpreted this otter as Being connected or being 01:45:29.724 --> 01:45:31.994 brought in by this, this force. 01:45:32.384 --> 01:45:36.714 It was very hard to understand and to interpret in any way. 01:45:36.804 --> 01:45:40.754 But it was, it was very powerful experience and I can't deny 01:45:41.374 --> 01:45:42.324 that that's what happened. 01:45:42.514 --> 01:45:45.994 It sounds, you know, I've seen artists before and they've been, 01:45:46.024 --> 01:45:50.064 you know, I've been close to them, but never an animal in that state. 01:45:50.234 --> 01:45:53.574 And it was completely different to anything I'd seen before. 01:45:53.804 --> 01:45:58.024 Rupert Isaacson: Was the splashing of the water over your bodies significant to her? 01:46:00.074 --> 01:46:03.144 Craig Foster: It was quite a long time ago, so it's hard to remember. 01:46:03.324 --> 01:46:04.614 It sounds almost like 01:46:04.984 --> 01:46:06.234 Rupert Isaacson: baptism or benediction. 01:46:06.284 --> 01:46:06.704 Yeah. 01:46:07.284 --> 01:46:07.604 Craig Foster: Yeah. 01:46:07.604 --> 01:46:11.284 And they do use, I mean, she used to use water a lot in that way. 01:46:11.284 --> 01:46:13.944 So it does, it did feel, it did feel like that. 01:46:14.104 --> 01:46:17.804 Rupert Isaacson: And ultimately is she, was she connecting with 01:46:17.814 --> 01:46:19.004 that water spirit for healing? 01:46:19.854 --> 01:46:20.354 Craig Foster: Yes, 01:46:20.694 --> 01:46:20.814 Rupert Isaacson: exactly. 01:46:20.814 --> 01:46:21.700 Why scorpion? 01:46:21.700 --> 01:46:26.131 Why not a sea creature or water I think it 01:46:26.931 --> 01:46:30.941 Craig Foster: was what, you know, sometimes spontaneously what was 01:46:31.861 --> 01:46:35.221 happening in the moment I think it was as part of it, she observed 01:46:35.761 --> 01:46:38.881 Rupert Isaacson: that that was there and yes, okay. 01:46:38.891 --> 01:46:41.221 It wasn't that this is a ritual that always involves a scorpion. 01:46:41.281 --> 01:46:42.531 Craig Foster: No, I don't think so. 01:46:42.771 --> 01:46:43.061 You hadn't 01:46:43.081 --> 01:46:44.231 Rupert Isaacson: been scouring 01:46:44.231 --> 01:46:44.641 Craig Foster: the 01:46:44.921 --> 01:46:45.191 Rupert Isaacson: pet shop. 01:46:45.361 --> 01:46:46.371 No, no, no, no. 01:46:46.371 --> 01:46:47.624 It was 01:46:47.624 --> 01:46:50.001 Craig Foster: a wild, a wild scorpion that was just there. 01:46:50.071 --> 01:46:50.371 Yeah. 01:46:50.891 --> 01:46:51.531 Rupert Isaacson: Interesting. 01:46:52.121 --> 01:46:52.491 Yeah. 01:46:53.381 --> 01:47:00.561 It's funny when, when you, there, there is a similar story I'll share on when 01:47:00.561 --> 01:47:06.831 we next talk, which happened to me with a fox that was not a million miles 01:47:06.831 --> 01:47:10.581 from that and had, was tied up with my son's autism in an interesting way. 01:47:12.406 --> 01:47:13.366 and a Navajo healer. 01:47:13.946 --> 01:47:17.766 So when I read that in your book, it resonated very deeply with me. 01:47:19.166 --> 01:47:22.176 Times of transformation, you know, messages that way. 01:47:23.306 --> 01:47:27.621 Well, I've kept you for A long time, and I know that you have to 01:47:27.621 --> 01:47:29.201 get up early to make your dive. 01:47:29.771 --> 01:47:34.181 So, can I get you back on? 01:47:34.691 --> 01:47:35.491 Craig Foster: Wonderful, yeah. 01:47:36.241 --> 01:47:38.171 Rupert Isaacson: A deeper dive, I had to say that, didn't I? 01:47:38.171 --> 01:47:39.731 There's a lot more I want to ask. 01:47:40.671 --> 01:47:44.051 For those of you listening, the book is Amphibious Soul. 01:47:45.211 --> 01:47:46.191 It's Craig Foster. 01:47:46.791 --> 01:47:50.431 You also need to see his film, My Octopus Teacher. 01:47:50.921 --> 01:47:52.091 You may well have already. 01:47:52.811 --> 01:47:54.691 You certainly also need to see his film, The Great Dance. 01:47:56.161 --> 01:47:59.221 Um, just give us where they can find you online and all of that., 01:47:59.781 --> 01:48:05.501 Craig Foster: I, I personally don't use social media to, for lots of 01:48:05.501 --> 01:48:12.151 reasons, but I our NGO Sea Change Project are very active and we use 01:48:12.151 --> 01:48:13.631 that for conservation and everything. 01:48:13.631 --> 01:48:13.871 So it's seachangeproject. 01:48:15.501 --> 01:48:19.391 com and it's also worth noting that. 01:48:20.831 --> 01:48:24.611 I don't know if you were able to access this or if you did Rupert, but when 01:48:24.611 --> 01:48:30.261 you read the book, there's a QR code in the book that connects you to 27 01:48:30.271 --> 01:48:35.171 short films I made that show you some of the crocodile diving and some of 01:48:35.171 --> 01:48:37.711 these interactions with these animals. 01:48:38.151 --> 01:48:42.046 And each chapter has about three of the films and They're connected 01:48:42.066 --> 01:48:43.426 to certain pages in the book. 01:48:43.436 --> 01:48:46.896 And I, my son, Tom did all the sound for that. 01:48:46.906 --> 01:48:49.496 And so it was a really fun process to do. 01:48:49.676 --> 01:48:51.176 It's just there's no extra cost. 01:48:51.176 --> 01:48:54.606 It's just like a passion part of the whole project of trying to 01:48:54.676 --> 01:48:59.376 immerse people through the book and through these these short films. 01:49:00.186 --> 01:49:02.826 Rupert Isaacson: There's also in, in the book, an amazing color section 01:49:02.876 --> 01:49:08.136 of a tracking photo images from one of your tracking doc from your 01:49:08.136 --> 01:49:10.956 tracking diaries over the years with. 01:49:11.516 --> 01:49:13.596 Some fairly pretty extraordinary moments. 01:49:13.596 --> 01:49:17.816 I don't want to spoil them for people but showing how tracking and animals 01:49:17.816 --> 01:49:23.076 and the sea forest come together We also have not in this conversation 01:49:23.086 --> 01:49:28.196 really touched on the work of sea change at all So I want to talk about that. 01:49:28.226 --> 01:49:31.566 I want to talk about what's actually being done with this story. 01:49:31.566 --> 01:49:37.511 Story is healing healing is story This is The healing work of the story, 01:49:37.581 --> 01:49:43.861 the sea change project and helping to not just to preserve the coast of the 01:49:43.861 --> 01:49:48.001 forest itself, but to bring people into touch with it for their own healing. 01:49:48.881 --> 01:49:51.381 So I'd like to talk about that 01:49:52.501 --> 01:49:53.641 Craig Foster: next time if we can. 01:49:54.311 --> 01:49:54.891 Wonderful. 01:49:54.951 --> 01:49:56.121 Thank you so much, Rupert. 01:49:56.401 --> 01:50:02.621 Really great reconnecting with you and I love your work and so appreciate your 01:50:02.711 --> 01:50:05.831 fabulous intellect and creative ideas. 01:50:05.841 --> 01:50:06.291 Thank you. 01:50:06.681 --> 01:50:09.711 Rupert Isaacson: It's I'm, I'm, I'm glad you labor under the illusion that 01:50:09.711 --> 01:50:14.581 I have an intellect, but I can certainly introduce it to the people who can put 01:50:14.581 --> 01:50:16.921 you on right on that one, but thank you. 01:50:16.941 --> 01:50:17.961 No, I mean, you. 01:50:18.606 --> 01:50:22.746 It's just always such a brilliant pleasure just to be in your company. 01:50:23.484 --> 01:50:24.594 Thank you for joining us. 01:50:24.624 --> 01:50:26.454 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 01:50:26.692 --> 01:50:31.732 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 01:50:31.732 --> 01:50:36.922 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 01:50:37.630 --> 01:50:42.278 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 01:50:42.278 --> 01:50:44.288 dealing with trauma around the world. 01:50:44.615 --> 01:50:48.365 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 01:50:48.365 --> 01:50:51.605 for riders on long ride home.com. 01:50:51.904 --> 01:50:55.954 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 01:50:55.954 --> 01:50:57.874 bring you and your horse joy. 01:50:58.410 --> 01:51:02.970 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 01:51:03.300 --> 01:51:04.230 See you on the next show. 01:51:04.643 --> 01:51:07.333 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.