Tina Parker

We talk to Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul's own Tina Parker!

Show Notes

Intro: Emceeing a memorial service
Let Me Run This By You: Fear and the paranormal
Interview: We talk to Tina Parker aka Francesca Liddy about SMU, Blake Hackler, Andre DeShields, Maria Irene Fornes' Mud, Kitchen Dog Theatre, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Robert Altman's Dr. T & the Women, Birdbath play, Perpetual Grace.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez

2 (10s):
This, and I'm Gina Pulice

1 (11s):
We went to theater

3 (12s):
School together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.

4 (15s):
20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of

3 (20s):
It all. We survive theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

2 (34s):
So what does mean, What does it mean to mc a memorial?

1 (40s):
Yeah. I mean, I don't know what to call it. I I people keep it host. I'm not hosting cuz the family's hosting. So what it means is that I'm trusted, I think to not, Well one, I've done this twice, you know, I've lost both my parents. So I like know the drill about how memorials go, but also I think I'm kind of a safe person in that I will step in if someone goes kaka cuckoo at the memorial and I also have some, you know, able like, presenting skills. Yes. Right. And I'm entrusted to like guide the ship if it, and if it goes off kilter, I will say to somebody, Hey, why don't you have a seat?

1 (1m 23s):
This is like, we'll have time for this later if you really wanna get crazy or whatever. But that's, and I think it's just sort of steering, steering the grief ship maybe. I don't know. Yeah, look, I don't know. I like that. It's gonna be

2 (1m 34s):
Interesting, dude, people, Oh, honestly, they should have that for, you know, in other cultures where they have like professional grievers and professional mourners, it, it sounds a little silly, but at the same time it's like, no, this is right. Because no, we don't, we never know how to do it. Unless you've lived in a really communal environment where you, you, you, you know, you attend the rights, the ceremonies or rituals of everybody in your village, then you really don't know until, usually until it's thrust upon you. And then it's like, well, you're supposed to be grieving and then like hosting a memorial service. It's such a weird thing. So this could be another career path for you. You could be a professional, you know, funeral mc, I actually, honestly, I hate, I don't hate it.

2 (2m 21s):
I love it. Well,

1 (2m 22s):
And also could be my thank you, my rap name funeral Mc instead of like young mc funeral mc, but no. Yeah, I, I have no, and it's so interesting when it's not my own family, right? Like these are family friends, but they're not, it's not my mother who died. I don't have the attachment to I people doing and saying certain things. I don't feel triggered. Like being, I grew up a lot in this house that I'm sitting in right now, but it's not my, it was not my house. So I don't have any attachment emotionally like appendages to the items in the house where the girls do.

1 (3m 2s):
So I'm able to be here and, and, and be like, this is, this is, I'm okay here. I don't feel overwhelmed. And I think that is a sign that I'm doing the right thing in terms of helping out in this way if I got here and I was like, Oh my God, it's too much. But I don't feel that. And I also think that like, one of the things that I did with Nancy and Dave over the last couple years is like, they were literally the only adults. Well, I'm an adult, only older adults my parents age who are like, Yes, go to California, you need to get out of here, get away from this. They were the, so I that made me trust them. And then we stayed, we had like weekly phone conversations, just like they would each be on a line.

1 (3m 46s):
It was hilarious. And we would talk for hours like maybe once every two weeks, a couple hours. And it was really like a parenting experience. So I feel very close to them and I, what I'm learning is that like, even if other people have different relationships with people, you can have your own. So I know that no one's perfect, but these were allowed, like, you're allowed Gina to have your own relationship with your mom and with your even dead people than other people have.

2 (4m 17s):
Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. Back to the plane for a minute. In these situations, what do the flight attendants do, if anything?

1 (4m 28s):
Oh, well I always talked to them before because I, so what I say, I always like to, because Dave, who's, who's a hypnotherapist and a psychologist, he said, Listen, you know, he used to be afraid. And he said his thing was talking to the flight attendants before and just saying like, Hey, I have a phobia. I'm a therapist. I'm working through it. Like just to make contact, right. I don't, I didn't say that exactly, but what I said was, Listen, I say, Hi, how are you? We struck up a strike up, a teeny conversation in that moment where I'm going to my seat and I say, Listen, I'm going to Chicago to like mc a memorial for like someone who's like my mom. So if you see me, so if you see me crying like it's normal. And they're like, Oh, thanks for telling me. And they're, they usually don't get freaked out.

1 (5m 11s):
I'm also not like intense about it. They do nothing. And you know what they, I think and, and she said, Thanks for telling me. I really appreciate it. Because I think they'd rather know what the fuck is going on with someone than thinking someone's about to hijack the goddamn plane.

2 (5m 29s):
Exactly. I was thinking that exact same thing. I was thinking like, especially right now, all they know is it's heightened emotion or it's not, you know, like they, they, they have no, they would have no way of differentiating, you know, what's, what's safe and what's dangerous. So I can't believe nobody's ever done this before. But we, another project that we could do is like airplane stories. I mean there is such, this is one of the few points of connection that humanity still has people that is who can afford to you fly a plane anywhere. But this thing of like, it sucks and it's dirty and it's growth and people, people's, you know, hygiene comes into question and if they're sitting next to you and it's uncomfortable and it's not the glamorous thing that it used to be even when we were kids.

2 (6m 21s):
So it's, it's one of those moments unless you have a private plane where you're sort of forced to reckon with like the same thing that everybody else in humanity has to reckon with. But even on a private plane, and I would argue even especially on a private plane, there is the fear of your imminent death. Like the, the, it doesn't matter if you're afraid of flying or not, it crosses your mind.

1 (6m 42s):
Well, yeah. And I, my whole thing is like, I, I don't know what would happen if we all started talking about that on a plane. So like what would that be like? So, okay, when I was traveling last with home from San Francisco with Miles, I sat next to this woman, Miles was in the middle and the woman on the aisle was this woman. We were both afraid. And we had this idea for a fricking television show, right? Which was two, it's called the Fearful Flyers and then two people on each side and a famous person in the middle seat. And we would interview them as we, we flew to one, take our mind off it, but two really delve into our own fear and did the person of any fear and get to know a celebrity at the same time.

1 (7m 27s):
Now she never texted me back. So she's clear, clearly she's not that interested. Cause I was like into it. I was like, what if we get, I know, I know. And she's not even in the industry. She's like, so, but I was like, hey fearful flyer friend, I think we should talk about our idea. Crickets radio silence. So whatever. She's moved on. Like she just used me for the, for the Yeah. No entertainment, which is fine,

2 (7m 53s):
Heightened emotional space. She, she bonded with you, but now she's back to like all of her armor and all of her gear and she doesn't wanna think about flying until she has

1 (7m 60s):
To. No. Right, right. Exactly. It's not something that she wants to delve into on her free time, you know, So, which I don't blame her. But anyway, so yeah, it's an interesting thing. Like I literally ha I sit out the window, I sit by the window and I have to look out the window. And this guy next to me who I met, who's like a vet and who is like, was self-medicating with alcohol and who is a gay vet was really interesting. But he, everyone copes differently. But it was in, at one point I thought, oh, I actually don't wanna be distracted by him because I'm really doing some deep work with myself as I look out the window and also your version of like getting through this experience, I, it does not feel safe to me, which is drinking and like just, I cannot distract myself.

1 (8m 52s):
People are like, Oh, read a book. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? That's like telling someone I don't know who's having a seizure to read a book. Like you, you, it's not gonna work. Right. I look out the window and, and do therapy with myself. That is what I

2 (9m 7s):
Do. I love it. That's great. I think everybody who is listening to this, who has any kind of fear or intimidation around flying should, should do that. I don't know if you were getting to this, but I thought you were gonna say something about like how, Oh, you said, you said what if we all talked about it now? Every positive communal experience with the exception of theater that I've ever had, I've gone into unwillingly at the beginning and you know, sort of rejecting it and then come out the other side. Like that was amazing. You know, the thing that you experience, the communal thing, the thing of like, we're all in this together, which we are all like so actually parched for, but we, people like me would never really kind of actively sort of approach.

2 (9m 48s):
It has to be thrust upon me these like healing group experiences, but amen. In fact, they could make a whole airline that is sort of about that. Like this is, you know, this is the emotional express. Like this is where we're gonna talk about our fear of flying. Cuz everybody's crying in airplanes too. Being in the actual airplane does something to you that makes everybody much more vulnerable than there are otherwise.

1 (10m 13s):
It's so crazy. I agree. It could be emotional express and you could deal with it, but you would know getting on this plane, like people are gonna talk about their feelings and you shouldn't get on it. So the guy on the aisle

2 (10m 26s):
Yesterday, No,

1 (10m 28s):
No alcohol. Oh yeah, no alcohol. The guy on the aisle like hated everything about the flight, Right? He was like shaking his head. He was annoyed. But then he had a Harvard sweatshirt on. I was like, oh my god. But he was like middle aged guy, like coating or I don't know what he was doing, but he like hated everything. He shook his head when they told him to like put his bag under the seat. I'm like, listen, you know what's going on here. This is not your first time in an airplane, Why are you shaking your head? But okay. But then he said something that was hilarious and I said, I'm gonna put that in a script. Which, which was, I don't even know what he was responding to. It was probably my seat mate saying something. But he said, Listen, it's not ideal, but nobody asked me.

2 (11m 13s):
And

1 (11m 13s):
I, I'm gonna, and I said to him, I said, Listen, I am gonna put that in a script. Like the mother-in-law is meeting her future daughter-in-law and, and says, Listen, she's not ideal, but nobody asked me. And he laughed and then he said, it's true. And I said, Yeah, I know it's true. That's why. And so then he was like, then he was like free to talk about his disgruntledness, which was fine cuz then it was like he was more human. But at, he was hilarious. He was like the, like he's one of those people that like during and it was really turbulent at one point. And I was like, Okay, here we go. It's turbulence part of the deal. It's okay, fine. And he was like, just like angry at the turbulence.

2 (11m 57s):
I love

1 (11m 58s):
It. Which I thought was brilliant. Yeah, I'm like, but like, who are you angry at? Just like the turbulence. And he was like, ugh. And like angry at air flow. I don't know if

2 (12m 7s):
At air current

1 (12m 8s):
He was like pissed off. I was laughing. I was like, this guy's awesome. He just hates everything. It's, it is not ideal, but nobody asks me.

2 (12m 17s):
So what's so great about that? And so what's so great about you is like, you enga that's how you always engage people from this perspective of like, yeah, whatever is going on with you that you think is like nobody else wants to hear about, I want to hear about it. Because that's because that's what you spend your time doing. You know, bravely engaging with yourself. They, we need a person like you in all of these sort of like high stress situations that people have to do. Usually at some point in your life you have to get on an airplane. Usually at some point in your life you you have to speak, you know, in front of a group of people. You have to have the funeral. We need these sherpa's, these guides to kind of give us, basically just give us permission to have our own human experience that we have somehow talked ourselves out of having, even though it's completely unavoidable.

1 (13m 3s):
Yeah. And I also really respect people who now who have to just, I mean I, it's not my way, but like, shut down and they're like, Nope, I'm just gonna, they can do it. They're like, either it's drinking or whatever it is to distract themselves. They're like in it, whether it's the disgruntledness or other people, they like just go to sleep immediately. They like sit down and they're like out. And I don't think it's relaxation. I think they're just like checked. They're like,

2 (13m 30s):
I have, Oh yeah, no, they're, I cannot be conscious right now. I wonder what makes the difference between people who are afraid of flying and not, I have never once felt afraid of flying, even during turbulence. I've never once had the thought like, this plane is going down. I mean, maybe that changed a little bit when I had kids and I was always the one in the aisle, like holding, I had to hold my babies the entire flight because, because it must be a natural thing to be freaked the fuck out to be on an airplane. Even a baby freaks out to be on an airplane. So there's something to it. But what makes a difference between people who just, I've never had that fear.

1 (14m 8s):
I I know it is a foreign, it is like it is. I don't know either. And I, I I, there's other people like that have, What was the fear someone was talking about the other day? Oh, I have a friend who like literally cannot have their blood drawn. They have to go under almost. Wow. They almost have to be sedated to have their blood drawn. Me. I I stick out my arm. I don't give a, it's just not my thing. Yeah. I don't have any charge at it at all.

2 (14m 37s):
Well,

1 (14m 38s):
You could take my blood right now.

2 (14m 40s):
I used to have this theory that you grew up afraid of the things that your parents basically were afraid of so that they therefore communicated to be afraid of. But that I now think that that's completely untrue. My daughter is scared to death of spiders. She, she's haunted by this fear that when she goes into the bathroom at night, there's gonna be a spider. If there's the tiniest and we live in the woods, there's sp there's all kinds of insects that make that their way into our house. I have, there's not a spider I've ever encountered that I've been afraid of now. Mice and rats. That's what I'm afraid of. My mom was afraid of snakes. She did not transfer when I was younger.

2 (15m 20s):
I felt afraid of them too. And then one day I was like, eh, it's fine. Yeah. I don't think I have any coral with these snakes actually. I think it's completely fine. Right. So I, I don't, So it's something inherent in us that identifies an ob I think it's maybe like we've, I for whatever reason, this becomes the object of all of your fears. And it could be a spider, it could be a plane, it could be, you know, clowns. Like it's for a lot, for a lot of people. It's

1 (15m 47s):
Fun. Oh remember, Okay, Larry Bates, who we went to school with, and he's open, I think about this. Yeah, he is cuz he's, he's talked about it. I, he had a fear of muppets, like an intense Muppet fear. And I was like, Wait, are you, I thought it was a joke. I was like, Wait, Muppets, Like, okay, they're a little weird, but like, but like a phobia of a Muppet. And I was like, what the actual fuck. I couldn't like,

2 (16m 14s):
I just, that's it's not, dude, my version of that is I was afraid of mariachi bands.

1 (16m 22s):
Wait, mariachi bands?

2 (16m 24s):
Yes.

1 (16m 25s):
Like bands. Yeah.

2 (16m 26s):
Well, so growing up, growing up in, well, we love Mexican boots, so we were always going out for Mexican food. And back then, I don't know why every time you went to have Mexican food, you know, dinner, there was a mariachi band. Like, I, I, it doesn't, I haven't seen a mariachi band in such a long time, but it used to be that you could not go out for a Mexican restaurant dinner without a mariachi band. And I, it got to a point where they couldn't, first it was like, we can't go to have Mexican food anymore. It was like, we can't go to a restaurant. I just, I didn't want these mariachis and, and it must have just, I think it was the bigness of the hat and the loudness of the music right next to your table when you think about it, it's actually, so it's strange, right?

2 (17m 9s):
Yeah. That you're sitting at your table, like with your family looking, you know, whether you're gonna order the chalupa or the enchilada. And then it's just like, extremely loud, very good, but extremely loud and, and in huge presence. People sitting, you know, right next to your table.

1 (17m 24s):
Yeah. I mean it doesn't really make a lot of sense as a business move either. Like what, why it would like, it would like make people, unless you're drunk again, if there's alcohol involved, it changes everything. But you can't really drink as a toddler. So, but I think that like, maybe there's something, I wonder if there's something about that of like all the attention being on you. Like, listen, when there's, like, there are kids I know at restaurants when they, when it's their birthday and they come over to sing that they fucking hate it. It's too much attention on them. And adults too. And I can kinda understand that. It's like too much pressure, right? There's like a

2 (17m 59s):
Pressure. Well, you just unlocked it for me now I know exactly what it is. You said something about being drunk and I think at that age, I have always equated loud and raucous with drunk. You know, as a kid, I knew when anybody in my family was being loud raus. And, and actually, I'm sorry to say even especially when they were having fun. When I'm in a room, when I'm in a house and everybody's laughing, you know, my, it's like, I I I I just get that fear. I just get that fear sort of rise up. It's different now that I'm older and I've, you know, been in more situations where that hasn't been scary to me. But that's what it was with the mariachis, The loud and the festive and the music meant like, somebody's going to say something that they really regret.

2 (18m 44s):
Somebody's gonna get a dui, somebody's going to jail.

1 (18m 50s):
Hey, let me run this by you.

2 (18m 58s):
So imperfectly into the thing I wanted to run by you today, given that it is Halloween season and this episode will air the day after Halloween. But so I, you know, Well, actually no. Okay, I'll, I'll start with this. I am one of those people that desperately seeks paranormal experiences. And I'm almost always disappointed when I'm, when I'm actively seeking it, going to a psychic, going to a medium, going to, it's, oh, you know, it's, I'm never the one in the crowd where the medium goes. Like, I've got a message for you.

2 (19m 40s):
And I've, I've gotten to the point where I'm like, my family's like just not that into me. They don't wanna, you know, the people have passed over, like, don't wanna, don't wanna come talk to me, don't wanna give me messages. But I I, if you're out there, if you're listening, ancestors drop a line. I'd love to know what the deal is. I'd love to know what messages you might have from me because I actually really do believe that that can happen. Maybe it just needs to happen with people who are on a higher spiritual plane than any of,

1 (20m 9s):
I mean, I don't, I don't believe that for a sec. I mean, it could be true. What do I know? But I think, look, I do believe right, that most shit happens when you're not expecting it paranormal or not. Like all this shit that has happened to me, most of it has been not at all when I would've planned or thought or, and so I have one ghost story. I don't know if you know, it happened in Great Barrington, Do you know this story?

2 (20m 42s):
Yes. But tell it again. It's a great story.

1 (20m 44s):
Okay. Okay. I could care. I was like 21. All I wanted was to be skinny and have boys like me. I didn't give a fuck about ghosts, I didn't care about anything. So I'm in Great Barrington in edits, Wharton's the old Lady author's house, and I'm the stage manager. And this guy I was in love with was in this play that took place. The monkeys paw took place in the, they were doing an adaptation of the Monkeys Paw in Edith Wharton's parlor on Halloween. It was like the creepiest thing, but I didn't give a fuck because I was in love with the guy who was seriously haunted. Yes, yes, yes. Super, super Berkshire's, whatever. I didn't care.

1 (21m 24s):
I was like, ah, I wanna, I want this guy to like me. I don't give a fuck about any of that. Okay. So I, my job was to literally move the furniture after the rehearsal to the storage room. Okay. In this big mansion. Okay, fine. They're getting notes and I'm just probably daydreaming about how I can make this guy like me. And I'm moving furniture and I go into this little storage room and of course people talk about the house is so big and haunted, I could care less. So I'm in there and down the road from the house is a barn where they're doing the play Ethan from and Okay, Ethan from, there's like a sledding accident in the play. So he's on a sled and they start screaming and the guy is hurt.

1 (22m 4s):
So another show was going on at the, in the barn. And I'm like, ah, okay. So I'm moving the furniture and I hear this sled yelling and okay, I'm like, Oh, should they, I wish they would shut up. I was like, this is loud yelling. So then I, we finish our rehearsal and we're walking up back, me and the cute guy and some other people, and all I'm thinking about is how can I get this guy like me? And like, literally, and also now I see pictures of him and I'm like, Dear God. Anyway, so, so, oh my God, why didn't someone, I mean, you should, someone should have just slapped me like 10 times and been like, No. But anyway, but that's what I was, I was all about him. I had a thing for Canadians. Anyway, so, so like, I just loved the guys that was like international to me, Canadians.

1 (22m 48s):
Anyway, okay. So it was like all the Canadians. So we're walking in the dark to our cars and, and I say, and we walk by the barn and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you guys, they were so loud tonight when I was moving the furniture. Like they should shut up. Like, I, I wonder how it's gonna be when we're doing the Monkeys Past show. We're gonna hear Ethan from, and like every, there's like four of us. Everyone stopped and I'm like, What, what's wrong with you? Two or three or whatever. And they were like, like turned white. I've never seen this happen in human beings. And I was like, What is happening? I thought I said something wrong or like, of course, like I was bad. And I'm like, What?

1 (23m 28s):
And they're like, Oh God. And I was like, What? What are you punk me? What's happening? And they're like, There was no show tonight.

2 (23m 37s):
Ooh. Even though I knew that was coming the story, it still gave me a chill. Today on the podcast we are talking to Tina Parker. Yes. Tina Parker, the one and only Francesca Litty from the Smash Hit series, critically acclaimed and me acclaimed Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad Tina's a delight. She's a director, she directs for theater. She's got a theater company in Dallas, Texas called Kitchen Dog. And she was so much fun to talk to and I just know you are going to love our conversation with Tina Parker.

2 (24m 33s):
Oh, nice. Okay. Well I wanna get all into Kitchen Dog, but I've gotta start first by saying congratulations Tina Parker. You survived theater school

5 (24m 44s):
So long ago. My Lord, so

2 (24m 46s):
Long ago. Yeah. I I have no doubt that, you know, the ripple we, we've learned, it doesn't matter how long ago you graduated, the, the feeling of survival persists and the ripple effects of it persists.

5 (24m 59s):
Absolutely.

1 (25m 1s):
When I had longer hair, people used to always ask if I played Bob Oden Kirk's assistant on better. And I would say no. But I adore the human that plays her. It's brilliant performance and I love it. So

2 (25m 17s):
There you go. It really is. And I, and I wanna talk a lot about Better Call Saul, but you went to smu, which I did. You interviewed the current dean, I think he's the dean. Blake Hackler.

5 (25m 30s):
Yeah. Chair of Acting I think.

2 (25m 31s):
Chair of Acting. Okay, fantastic. I'm I'm assuming you guys weren't there. No, you never crossed

5 (25m 36s):
Path. But we've actually, he and I have crossed paths a bit professionally nowadays. Yes. Because we've, we, Kitchen Dog has done a few of his new play readings cuz he's a playwright also. So he's, he had at least two or three plays read in our New Works festival and he's always helped me out when I need recommendations for young people to come in and read. Cause you know, we're all old at Kitchen Dog.

2 (25m 56s):
Fantastic. Shout out to Blake. So SMU is a fantastic school. Did you always wanna go there? Did you apply to a bunch of different places? How did you pick smu?

5 (26m 9s):
Well, it's kind of a ridiculous story. I, my senior year of high school, you know, of course like a lot of people went to theater school. You're all like, I'm the superstar. My high school. Like, all right, I get all the leads. I'm Auntie Mame and Mame. You know what? Ridiculous.

1 (26m 25s):
I just have to say I was Agnes Gooch and I, I was the Gooch. Were you

5 (26m 30s):
Agnes? I was ma I was anti Mame in the stage play version. Oh yes.

1 (26m 35s):
I wa yeah, yeah, me too. I was Agnes Gooch. I wanted to be anti Mame, but so anyway, always a goo, always a Gooch. Never a Mame over here. But anyway, So tell us, So you were the start.

5 (26m 46s):
Yeah, you know, like everybody who went to theater school, everybody was the start at their high school. But I, my dad unfortunately had a stroke when I was a, and he was only, my parents are super young and so he was 40, I don't know. So it was very unusual. It happened like at the beginning of my senior year. And so my family was, it was all kind of chaotic. My senior year was very chaotic and I was also like the president of the drama club and, and we, you know, and all the people, you know, all the competitions every weekend. And so it was just a, there was a lot going on and my family stuff got into disarray because my dad ended up losing his job because he was sick for so long. And, and it was so I screwed up.

5 (27m 28s):
Like I missed a lot of applications. I never, I didn't really, it was one of those where it just kind of snuck up on me and I didn't really know the places I wanted to go. I had missed like certain deadlines because of the fall. And so I, SME was still one of the ones that was open. And so I did, was able to schedule an audition cuz you had to get into the school, but also, you know, get into the theater program. Like you could get into the school, not get into the theater program, you know, it is what it is. Luckily I still had time to do the audition, so I did that and then my grandmother literally walked my application through the admin, through the academic part because something I had missed, I think.

5 (28m 13s):
And my grandmother is very like, I don't know, it's hard to say no to my grandmother. So she went and they took this great care of her and she just kind of walked through and she's like, told the whole situation. And I mean, I had good grades. Like it wasn't, you know, like I did get in, I got scholarships and all this shit. Like I had, I had good grades, so it wasn't like I was like, my grandmother did it, you know, But she did walk it through. She's a thousand percent charmer. And then the, as far as the audition goes, I was an hour late because I got lost. And then there's this weird horseshoe at SMU cuz you know, go ponies or whatever bullshit that is, there was no parking.

5 (28m 55s):
And so I was like, got, was super late and I was just like, just like so sweaty and like, you know, you, everything's high drama when you're in high school, right? So you're like, this is is my last chance to be a doctor. I'm gonna have to work at the, you know, fucking shoe store that I was working at or whatever. It was forever. And so

1 (29m 15s):
I would, I, after I became an actor, I was still working at the cheese store after I went to, But the other thing I wanna say is like, also your grandma sounds like charming, but also like, she might be in the mob.

5 (29m 25s):
Well, yeah, she's totally like, yeah, I mean, I don't know. She's, she's she, she can get it done. She's the wife of a Methodist minister too. So she, she, she knows how she can, she can read a person and figure out like, this is what you need, you know, And she's just sweet, like, you know, she's charmer. But I ran into someone else's audition, like that's what I, I ran and they then the school, the school is all built, the school is all built crazy. So if you don't know the school, you get lost. And I was like, went and I going in the wrong places and I was an hour late and I was like, and like, I literally like, this is it not open the door. And they're like, somebody's in there like, like doing the thing. And I'm like, oh my god. And they're like, you know, and I was like that.

5 (30m 7s):
And I was just like, Oh God. And so I go and sit in the room and I just remember them coming in. I was like, I'm really sorry, you know, like the kid was like, whoever, I don't think they got in. And they, I just remember them looking at me like, you know, and they left and I was like, great, this is awesome. And then I go into my audition, which I chose the worst pieces, like the worst of course. Like, I think it was like, I can't even remember the name of the playwright, but it's like a really, really dramatic monologue from like bird bath, you know, My head is not a hammer, like something ridiculous. And then I also chose to sing, which I'm not the greatest. I mean, I can sing, I can sing karaoke, but not like seeing like I'm a musical theater actor. I, I, that's not me.

5 (30m 47s):
I think I chose seeing like the something that Nights on Broadway or some bullshit, like, you know, the Neon Lights On? No, No. On Broadway. Like ridiculous. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were like, luckily, luckily I did get in the interview part and then they're like, turn your, they're like, turn your monologue into standup comedy.

2 (31m 6s):
Oh wow. I never heard of that in audition. What a cool tactic.

5 (31m 10s):
Well, and it was also, I think they could tell that I was so freaked out and so nervous, but then that like, the interview portion went great. And so they're like, you know, then they were like, Hey, try like play around with this. And then like, the bad song that I had selected that I had practiced with my cousin who could play guitar or something, they're like, do some dance moves with it. So I was just like, I don't dance, but I started doing these ridiculous things and they're like, Yeah, good. They laughed and you know, I, I think it also let me relax. They're

2 (31m 38s):
Like, you are crazy enough to be in theater school. Wait, you guys, should we have a documentary series about people who are auditioning for theater school? Because honestly like the stakes are so high for so many people. I bet there's 1 billion stories. Yeah, I mean, some of which we've heard on, on, on the podcast, right? Boz? Yeah,

1 (31m 58s):
I think we do. I think we do. And all the, I just remembered that in my monologue was from the play about the woman who traps the rapist in her house and puts him in a fireplace.

5 (32m 10s):
Oh, the burning bed or whatever. Not the burning bed, but the, Yeah,

1 (32m 14s):
Yeah. And it's, it's, it's William Masterson.

5 (32m 17s):
Yes,

1 (32m 18s):
Yes, yes. And, and she has a fire poker and she's poking the rapist and I am 16 at the time. Oh, and I what? And a virgin, not that that really matters, but like the whole thing is not good. And why, why did I do that? But yet I got, But

5 (32m 35s):
That's what this piece was the same thing. It was so dark. And so like, this person is mentally ill and she's like, I get, there's not a hammer.

1 (32m 41s):
Don't hit me bear.

5 (32m 42s):
And you're just like, What?

1 (32m 44s):
I'm like it would've been, I mean I know this is terrible to say, but what if they told me to turn that into standup? Like that would be dark, dark, dark humor. But any, Okay, so you, you clearly like, what I love is that smu like knew how to take a teenagers anxiety and like shift it and so good on them, those auditioners like good on them. So you did that, you did you walk out of there feeling like, okay, like it started off really wonky, like me being late, but like I have a chance. Or did they tell you, when did they tell you

5 (33m 15s):
I felt good like that? When I, after I left I was like, okay, you know, like I wasn't sure like, cuz I was like, it was weird that they told me to change it to comedy, but I think it was good, you know, And like I felt like the interview part went good and they were, at the time, my class, this was the first year that they, they eliminated the cuts program. So what happened is they instead they had the BFA acting track and then they had, well what was proposed anyways, they changed our, what our degree was, but it was supposed to be ba in theater studies. And so if you were interested in directing, you know, playwriting, whatever, stage management, tech, whatever, and then acting you could also have, so you kind of chose focuses, but that was it.

5 (34m 2s):
And it had more of a little more academic focus. And so cuz before me, the classes, everybody went in as an actor. You did first two years and then they kind of just cut you basically. And were like, you're in this free fall of like a program that wasn't really planned.

1 (34m 18s):
Yeah. I mean like, that's how our school was too. And like half the people didn't end up graduating and it was a racket and now they don't do it anymore. But that

5 (34m 27s):
Was a huge, yeah, they stopped my year.

1 (34m 30s):
Okay. So, so was it that the people that maybe weren't get getting into the acting program went to theater studies? Is that how it was proposed?

5 (34m 37s):
I think that's what they were trying to do. I think they were also trying to figure out a way, or they were try some people left. I think they were also trying to keep their numbers up. And I think they also had people who were like, Hey we're, I'm an actor but I'm also a director. Why can't you make, get me some classes here? You know, like, I wanna have the class. If you're gonna cut me, that's fine. But like, I'm interested in these things too. Can there be a program? And so they kind of were building that program, like they had it out there, you know, and that when they took our class, we had very set paths of like, and we had the same two years together as a group. So freshman and sophomore year. And then we split into our kind of disciplines and they kind of still, like when I was, when we were juniors, kind of like, here's some things and we're like, okay, but our class was kind of a hard ass and we're like, where's our, where's our, where's this class?

5 (35m 24s):
Where's that? So we were always in the office saying, no, this, this like afterthought of a class, this should then fly and you know, I'm gonna direct a main stage or I wanna direct a studio. And they're like, Oh. And they're like, No, this is how it's gonna work or whatever. So like, yeah, me and Tim and Tim, who actually is one of my coworkers, a kitchen dog and then a couple other folks were pr I think we turned the, the chair at the Times hair white because we would go in there and be like, No, this isn't gonna work.

2 (35m 53s):
You just, you just made me realize that our, this, all the schools who had cut programs who didn't have another track to go into after were missing out on such a revenue stream. Right? Like our, at our school. Yeah. All the people who got cut like went to this other college and I'm thinking, what, what, When was the meeting where somebody goes, Oh my god, you guys, we should just have something here for them to do instead of sending them to another school. That's hilarious. Well,

5 (36m 17s):
And I think too, they find like, you know, like that there's kids that truly have talent for, you know, like a playwright or director, but then they're also really good actors. Which I think, you know, I think it's really good for people who are like, I am primarily like, I'm a mix Tim I would say who my coworker is is primarily a director, but, but it's great for both of us to go through acting, you know, like that's been, that's, but

1 (36m 38s):
I'm noticing is there's no, like our school had no foresight into anything, so it was like they didn't, So that's a problem in a, in a university.

5 (36m 49s):
Yeah. It, here's problem. Right.

1 (36m 50s):
So okay, so at your school, what was your experience like on stage the star? Were you And then, Oh, okay. And then, and then my other follow up question is, man, the follow up question is you're launching into the professional world. What did your school do or not do to prepare you? And what was your departure like into like, okay, now you're 22, live your life.

5 (37m 11s):
Bye. I would say for, I was kind of a mix. Like I had a lot of opportunities while I was there and some self created as far as directing opportunities. And we had an interesting system of like, there was a studio theater and we were able to have, we had this studio system, which a lot of non-majors would come and see plays because they were required, blah, blah blah. But so we got to direct a lot, you know, And, and Tim really fought and he got directed main stage and I was, I was, my senior year I was a lead in a play, you know, like just all sorts of things. Like I had a lot of great opportunities at smu. I think I had some also, I had some good teachers and directors while I was there.

5 (37m 53s):
So when I was a junior, you know, they had Andre De Shields in to, to as a guest artist, which really stirred the pot because he was not about like, let's talk about your objectives, let's talk, let's really do some table work. Like, he was like, Why aren't you funny? I don't get that shit. Like, go, go out. Why aren't you funny like this? Or come up with some, some dancing or whatever, you know. He was awesome. Like, I loved it. Like cuz we were doing funny thing happen on the way to the forum. I was one of the, you know, concubines or whatever the dance, I was Tinton Nebula, the bell, the supposed to be a, like a bell ringer, you know, like sexy dancer. And he said, I reminded him of some lady he lived with in Amsterdam. So instead I was a clogger and had bells and had giant hair that went out to here.

5 (38m 37s):
And yeah. And so he was like, he was great. Like, and but it really gave you the experience, it makes a lot of people crazy because he was like not interested in their process. What he was interested in was like results and like hitting your marks and like, you know, like he had sent me away and he was like, come up with 16 beats to that end I'm gonna see something funny. And so I came back in and did it and he was like, yes. You know, like it was, it was awesome. Like he would, he would really was a real collaborator.

2 (39m 3s):
That's fantastic. And, and actually I'm so glad you told that story because, and I, I won't, I wanted you to get back to launching and everything, but the thing about the Andre Des Shield story that you just told, I can see why you like that because that seems like you a person who has the training and the gravitas and whatever to like take their craft very seriously, but at the end of the day, you're there to entertain and get the job done, right? Like you don't, you're not so precious about your own self. Yeah. Which is really interesting.

5 (39m 30s):
No, and I mean it was, it was so important I think just because, you know, like everywhere you, everywhere you go like, you know, you don't always work at the same place and everybody's process and everybody's way of rehearsal or whatever's wildly, wildly different. And so I thought it was great because you know, you're not going to go always walk into some place where they're gonna coddle you or, or, or take the time or whatever, you know, like it's different.

1 (39m 56s):
The other thing is that like we, what I just hit me is that we've interviewed a ton of people and I'm trying to like think about like what does a conservatory do wrong is I think they forget that it's about entertainment. Like there becomes such a focus on process and inner work. What about the fucking entertainment value of like entertaining the audience? Like that goes out the window, which is why the shit is not funny most of the time. Cause it's like so serious, you're like, no, this is a fucking farse. Like make people laugh. Yeah. And it's like, I love that, that you're, you remind me of like an entertainer and I, I feel like I needed entertainment Conservatory.

5 (40m 35s):
Not, well I would say that, I mean I still use a lot of the training that I used at SMU like, like at Kitchen Dog. I mean this was founded by SMU grads. So you know, a lot of the doing table work and talking about what you want and all that kinda stuff like that is definitely part of what we do. But what was cool about Andre and I love and Des Shields with all my heart like was that you found a way to make your process work in his framework and, and he got results. Like the, our show was funny as hell, like in the singing was great, the dancing was great and it looked great cuz the Eckhart's did the costumes and all the sets and it felt like we were in a professional show.

5 (41m 15s):
Like it was, it was exciting and fun to do. So I thought it was a great way to kind of get ready for what it was gonna be like. Cuz I remember auditioning for the show and he was like, Where's your headshot? And we're like, nobody told us. And he's like, This is an audition, why don't you have, I don't understand why you don't have a headshot. And you're just, just like, oh God. Like, and it was embarrassing, you know? And then he was like, All right, I wanna do the, he's doing some improvy things in that in the thing and people couldn't get like, people were like, and he is like, just jump in man. And he was like fantastic. And you know, you get a call back and you're like, okay, I see how this works. So that was great. And we also had a lady named Eve Roberts, same thing. She was pretty brutal too in that, you know, if you weren't ready to go, she wasn't gonna baby you.

5 (42m 1s):
So she would just basically like you're oh, so you don't know your lines. Sit the fuck down, Sit down, who's ready to work? Cuz it was an audition class and she was a film actor with a lot of experience and it was auditions for both film and and stage. But she, if you weren't ready, but if you were ready, she would work you out. Like you would get a great workout, you'd leave with a great monologue. And so I was like, always be prepared for that, you know, cuz she will, she will, she will get you if you're not,

2 (42m 27s):
Honestly it really sounds like SMU did a much better job than most, most of what we hear about in terms of like getting real working actors and, and it's a tough thing. I I, you know, I don't really blame any school that doesn't, It's a tough thing if it's a working actor, then they're working, they don't have time to like commit to the, the, the school teaching schedule. But at the same time, like if you don't have any of that, then you are really, you're experiencing all that on the job. Which, you know, which is fine too. But it sounds like SMU did a better job of preparing for you, preparing you for a career.

5 (42m 57s):
I would say somewhat. Yeah. I mean there are things that I, you know, as, as I entered life because I was of the mind when I, when I graduated, I was really torn about whether or not to go to grad school or not. And I really didn't know cuz I really, I, and I still to this day have a split focus. Like I act and direct both in the, you know, in the theater. Like I do both. So I wasn't sure which way I wanted to go and you really had to decide to go to grad school. So I was like, you know, I'm gonna take a year off is what I decided. And I waited tables, lived life, you know, whatever, didn't even really do any theater or stuff.

5 (43m 39s):
But I tended to like work back at smu. So like they would have me come back and like I would sub in and cover like Del Moffitt who was the man who was the auditioner who auditioned me originally and his improv class. Like I'd come in and do cover him for a month if he went on sabbatical, you know, stuff like that. Or like, and I directed a couple main stages there. That was it. So I just decided end up, I started working more in Dallas and ended up just staying in Dallas. Dallas was not what I plan where I planned to stay. Like I kept in my mind, you know, thinking like I'm gonna move to Chicago. Like that was my dream was living in Chicago and because I guess I'm a tourist and stubborn and lazy, I don't know, sometimes you just start working and you're like, nah, just stay here.

5 (44m 26s):
I'm working and I can kind of do what I want. And then I got an agent and I was like, oh there's this part of the, you know, like I think in 95 or whatever, you know, cause I graduated in 91, so you just start working and then it's like, why do I want to go and start over? And it was just kind of a hard thing to do. Do I have regrets sometime about not doing Absolutely. Like sometimes I look back and I'm like, oh man. But as far as just preparing, I think it's just hard to get prepared. Cuz I think, like, I wish I left with like, and they're doing this now, which is great, but like left with more of like what's, you know, good, what's a good headshot? What's what, what, you know, how do you walking into a room, how do you handle it?

5 (45m 7s):
You know, like there's certain things that I feel like they could train and give you a little bit more experience, life experience in it. But I think they have some new, I know they have, I know they have film acting now, a little bit of film acting stuff there, which is always good just cuz that's how a lot of people make money.

2 (45m 26s):
I, I am, I'm happy to say because we've had, we've had this conversation so many times with people about the way that schools didn't prepare you. Somebody's been getting the message about this. My son is in high school and he goes to this like auxiliary performing arts program. It's like half day his regular high school and half day this and he does a seminar once a week on the business of music. And you know, what, what kind of jobs you're gonna have to do to keep, you know, to pay the rent while you're waiting between gigs, like is very brass tack. So, so the message has gotten through, thankfully.

5 (45m 58s):
Yeah, the business is important, man. That's how you survive. I mean, let's be real. I mean like that's, and it's not easy. Like if you're, like, if you're going to, I mean there's, sure there's two or three unicorns every so often, but for the most part you're gonna have to wait tables or cobble together bunch of odd jobs or cobble you know, like all these little, like, I'm a, I'm gonna do the Asop Fs in the, in the elementary schools for three weeks or whatever, you know, like, and how do you make rent? You know, like that's, it's not glamorous for sure.

2 (46m 27s):
So what was the journey from graduating to founding Kitchen Dog with your classmates?

5 (46m 33s):
I actually am not a founder. So Kitchen Dog was founded by five SMU MFA students who were in the MFA program when I was an undergrad. So I, so I ate that old, thank God, but they founded it in 90, did their first show in 91, which I saw it was above a, it was above a pawn shop in deep with no air conditioner in May. It was very hot and fantastic, you know, Maria Ford has his mud, it was great. And so I did my first show with them in 93. So a few years after I graduated, which Tim, my classmate directed, he had come back, he was in Minnesota at the time and then I've just worked with Kitchen Dog ever since.

5 (47m 15s):
So I became a company member in 96, started working for the company as like an admin producer type person in 99 and then became co-artistic director when the founding ad left in 2005. So I've been here forever. I do not have children. I say that Kitchen dog is my grown mean child. You're

1 (47m 36s):
Grown mean, did you say mean?

5 (47m 38s):
Yeah, I did say mean sometimes. Yeah, sometimes it's very, you know, temperamental.

1 (47m 42s):
Yeah, that's fine. That's, I mean, yeah, it's probably still better than kids, I'm just saying. Anyway. I mean, I don't have any, so, but okay, so what do you, this is what I always wanna ask people who have longstanding careers in theater and especially when they are co-artistic director or artistic director, why do you do it and why do you love it?

5 (48m 6s):
That's a really good question. I mean, it varies from time to time. I mean, I think that I, you know, Kitchen Dog has one of its tenants has always been about asking, you know, we do, we do, I hate the word edgy, but we do edgier plays, we do plays that are very much talking about the world around us. Challenging, you know, and we're in Texas, it's, you know, sort of purple state now, kind of exciting purple parts. At least Dallas is hopefully this election goes that way. So, you know, it's, we, I feel like our place in the Dallas Zeki is important because, you know, we're not doing, there are a lot of people that do traditional plays and do them well, you know, like straight ahead, you know, musicals or you know, the odd couple or whatever.

5 (48m 53s):
Notice this gesture, the odd couple and doing great. But we do new, we do newer plays. We're a founding member of the National New Play Network. And so that's kind of kept it relevant and kept it exciting. The work exciting to me. I love working with new plays and new ideas and we have a company of artists, some of which went to smu and I, I think I've stayed here this long because, you know, I feel like I can, I, I do, I am able to do the kind of work I wanna do. I'm able to choose the plays I wanna be in or direct and I feel like they're important for my community. And when it becomes that, it's not that then I need to leave or step downs is my feeling.

5 (49m 37s):
I mean, you know. Yeah, yeah. I dunno.

2 (49m 40s):
Yeah. So many people say that, that they, that they, they keep their allegiances to theater companies because it's, it's often the work that they really, you know, f feel moves them is very, you know, is very inspiring. But then you also got the opportunity to do a very good part in something that was commercial, which is breaking bad. So could you tell us anything about your, how you were born into that project?

5 (50m 8s):
Sure, sure. The, I, you know, I got an agent, did you know, I had no experience, no resume. So you did the couple of walk on, you know, like, I'm in the back of a bank commercial, fantastic. Or whatever, $50. I love it. Did that and Lucked into Robert Altman. Came to town and did a very terrible movie called Dr. T and the Women. But it was a fantastic experience and I was one of the nurses and I was on set every day pretty much. So he's told me, he told us, he's like, I'll make you a lot of money. You're not gonna be seen a lot. You'll be here every day. And we got out by five and I was able to do plays at night. Like it was, it was Chef's kiss the best, like you just kind of learned from the master.

5 (50m 52s):
Like he is a, he truly was a master god rest his soul. Anyway, so I started auditioning more, did some walkers cuz everybody does did Walker back in the time Walker, Texas Ranger. It's like

1 (51m 2s):
The er we'd all did the ER and the early ion in Chicago. That was my so walker, same thing. I love a good walker by the way, Texas Ranger.

5 (51m 13s):
So ridiculous. Yeah, I think one of my lines in one of the episodes I was in was like, you won't put this on your lighty friends tabs. Like it was so country. Anyway, it terrible. But so with the breaking bad thing, I, I read the sides. It actually was the, the person who was casting locals or whatever, not locals cuz it was shooting in New Mexico, but it was a woman in Tony Cobb Brock who was casting in Dallas. And so we got the sides, I got the call to come in and audition for it. I read it and I was like, you know, and this is the story I've told a lot, but it's the truth, which is I read it and I was like, It's gonna be a blonde, big boobs woman. Like that's what I thought when I read it, I was like, it's gonna be this.

5 (51m 54s):
That's what it's gonna be. Cuz there were a lot of jokes about boobs and you're killing me with that booty. Like there was a lot more to that scene. My first scene there was a lot more. So I was like, whatever. I was like, it's not, I'm, you know, I'm a plus size lady, I have brown hair, I have a, you know, deep voice. Like, oh well. So I was like, why do I feel good in, So I just wore, I remember I wore this Betsy Johnson dress that, cause I was kind of into Rocky Billy Swing at the time. This Betsy Johnson little dress with apples was real sexy and this little shrug and had my hair kind of fancy. And I was like, I'm wearing this. I don't give a shit. So I, I was like, I feel good in this, Who cares? So I walked in and there were a bunch of ladies that were blonde and had professional lady outfits on and I was like, Oh shit, I should have dressed like a secretary.

5 (52m 38s):
Why did I dress like this? Oh damn. And I was like, Okay, well whatever. It's, you're not, you're not gonna book this so who cares? Went in, I had a great audition, made Tony laugh and you know, it was what it was. And so I went away and I didn't hear anything for a while. So I was like, oh, I didn't book that. Oh well. And I was sitting in an audition for some commercial and I never booked commercials. I just don't, cuz I look one way and then my voice comes out and they're like, Oh, you can't play the young mom because you seem like Jeanine Garofalo or something. So your bite and smile is scary, ma'am. So I was waiting in the, waiting in the waiting room and my agent calls, or I got paged or, you know, cause it was that so long ago.

5 (53m 23s):
And she was like, Can you be on a plane in three hours? And luckily I wasn't doing a play at the time. And I said, Yeah, I can. And she's like, Well you booked it. You, you should go and so you should go home and pack and go to Southwests. And that was the story. And so I get there and you know, whatever found out that, you know, it's Bob and Kirk and start losing my mind and all this stuff. But what's crazy is, it's a crazy story. And then on when in season four finale, breaking bad spoiler alert, if you haven't watched it, but you're,

2 (53m 52s):
You're late if you haven't watched it. Like

5 (53m 54s):
It's, that's

2 (53m 55s):
On you.

5 (53m 56s):
Please watch it cuz I need, Mama needs to keep getting residuals. Cause she's, you know, not Yeah. But that final episode where I have a great scene with Brian Cranston. There's a, there was a podcast, Insider podcast, which I wasn't aware of, but they talked to Vince about, you know, Oh, who's she and how did you cast her? You know, cause this was my first like, actual scene, you know, like, boy, I don't, I have more than two lines. And he tells the story of like, and this, I just love this story, which is like, basically he had seen a lot of people that he didn't think was right. He wanted something. They kept showing him the same type and he was like, no, I I it needs to be something different. He's a different kind of guy. I wanted somebody who'd challenge him, you know, different looking. And the casting woman who had Kira, I can't remember her last name, but she had, you know, I'd auditioned for her a few times, been put on tape.

5 (54m 43s):
I don't know that it necessarily booked anything. She's like, Well there is this one girl, I think she's great. She's probably not right. I physically, she's prob I don't think she's right, but do you wanna see? And so he showed her and he was like, That's exactly what I want. And then I booked it. And so it's crazy. So you just never know. I mean I think that's the, I think that's the walkaway.

1 (55m 2s):
Okay. This is the,

5 (55m 3s):
This

1 (55m 4s):
Is the craziest thing. This is crazy. So I booked a show in New Mexico called Perpetual Grace. Kira cast it and Kira showed me to Steve Conrad, who's the showrunner in James Whitaker who was directing the episode. I looked nothing like the other people. My agent Casey called me and said, Can you get on a plane in three hours? You

5 (55m 29s):
Gonna

1 (55m 29s):
New Mexico? Same casting director, St. Kira,

2 (55m 34s):
The Kira, all these people, Kira,

1 (55m 38s):
Kira talk

5 (55m 39s):
Me. Well, and it's like that thing, you know, like you, you know, I think that's always the big takeaway, right? Is, is, and you know, and I, I think I read this not to feel like I'm fucking namedropping I'm not. But like, I read this I think in Brian's book too. But like, the thing is, is like all you can do is just like, just, they're calling you in for a reason. So you just have to say like, what is it in me? What's unique about me? That's this role? And lean into it and go for it in that regard because that's all you got. Like as soon as you start and I find myself doing this, I have to keep reminding myself, you know, to do this. Which is I'll read something like, oh it's this and try to play to what I think it is. Versus like, no, what is it in me?

5 (56m 19s):
That's this. And that's the thing I book when I do that, when I try to do the other other thing, you know? Totally. And start getting your own head.

2 (56m 28s):
The time

5 (56m 28s):
On here, God,

2 (56m 30s):
By the way, regarding name dropping, I never understand why anybody gets upset about that. I, it's like, well they're people that, you know, the people that you work with, they're people in your life. I mean, you're just saying their name. It's, it's not like you're cloud chasing. But anyway, that, that's insight. Girl. Walk me back to this day where you take three hours to get on the airplane. I wanna know how fast did you have to rush home to pack? What did you do? Did you have enough stuff? What was it like when you were on the airplane? Did you order a drink because you felt so fancy? Tell us everything.

5 (56m 57s):
Well, all I know is I had a bag and I got, I ran home, I had a roommate at the time, thank God. And I just said, Can you feed my cat? Cause I, I had a cat at the time. I was like, Please feed Loretta. And so I got this bag and just threw, it was really like, just stuff thrown in and I was like, do I need to bring the dress and shoes that I wore that, So I brought the whole outfit cuz I was like, cuz the jobs, some of the jobs I'd been on, I had to bring my own shit or whatever, you know, you have to bring your whole wardrobe and be like, Oh you want none of this? Great, I'll put it all back in my car. So I just threw that in there and then I just threw some random, I don't even know what I packed and, you know, ran to the airport, got on the plane, I think I did have a jack and coat cuz I was just like, I'm so freaked out in the plane.

5 (57m 43s):
Of course you know, you're going to New Mexico, so you're going over those mountains and you're just like, okay, I'm gonna die also great, but I don't wanna die. I just booked a big job or whatever. And then I remember the landing and getting in the van thing and they took me straight to the hotel and I, I remember opening cuz they, back then they, you know, you would get like your sides in an envelope like that in the, in the later years. That shit never, you never got printed stuff ever because people would steal it and whatever else. So I remember pulling it out and seeing Bob's name and freaking, oh, cause I was a huge Mr.

5 (58m 23s):
Show fan and I was just like, oh my god, oh my god. And I just remember calling my fr I have a friend Aaron Ginsburg, who's kind of an LA Hollywood dude or whatever. And I was like, Oh my god, oh my god. And he was like, Thanks for this spoiler. And I was like, Oh shit, I'm not supposed to tell people. And I was like, but I'm freaking out. And he was like, No, no, it's okay. I will tell no one. I was like, don't tell anyone I don't wanna get fired. But yeah, so I just remember sitting there and freaking out and trying to look at my lines and, you know, what am I, oh God. And then going there with my clo my little bag of dresses or whatever and they're like, we don't want any of this crap.

2 (58m 57s):
They're like, this is a high budget show. We got, we got costumes covered

5 (59m 1s):
Back then. I don't, I know back then, I don't know if they were that high budget, but it was interesting to me. The one thing is, is just how involved the showrunners of that show Peter and or Vince at the time, and then later Peter and Vince. But like, they have a color palette they have where they want the characters to go. Like I had, you know, that it got really paired down. I ended up having like, you know, just a few lines. But they took so many pictures, different outfits, different setups and like different color tones, like just setting what they wanted for my character. And I was like, holy shit or whatever. And they were, everybody was so, and everybody was so nice and friendly.

5 (59m 43s):
It's really remember your name to hear

1 (59m 45s):
And I'm glad you talked about it. Oh, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm in the rainstorm. So sorry. But like, it's so weird to be, I'm in the Midwest right now and I live in la so coming back here, I'm like, what is that noise? It's fucking fucked up and it's the fucking rain. Anyway, so what is so beautiful about this story to me is that even if we feel small, right? Like whatever, these people who are creating these iconic shows have such vision. There is literally no small character. Like these are their children and they have arcs they have. So it just makes me appreciate as creators, as artists, how much time love, energy goes into characters and storylines.

1 (1h 0m 31s):
And then we see maybe, maybe if we're lucky one eighth of it, but just know like the shit matters. Right? Like a

5 (1h 0m 39s):
Thousand percent. And that's the same thing with like, the same thing with Robert Altman. I mean like we were, you know, he, you know, I got to be part of one of those ma his signature long tracking shots, right? He, he would walk in the room and be like, Okay, what's going on in here? So what are you guys doing? What are you, what's happening? And I was like, Well where this, that? And he's like, Great, keep that. And when I come across I want you to be in this moment. You know? So like, and he's like, Teen are things like where he's following on my shoulder and Tina, I need you to do this and this is what's happening. And I've tried, I want, I'm just gonna think about some lines, just throw these out. You know? It was just, I don't know. And that's the same thing with Vince and with Peter. Like, they were really like, what is she wearing? Why is she wearing this? Where are you? Like, you know, what's going on?

5 (1h 1m 19s):
And like they were like, the scripts were so good. It was like you had to be letter perfect. Barry's like, oh it's a lot of improv. And I'm like, no,

1 (1h 1m 26s):
No. But

2 (1h 1m 26s):
Also it sounded like theater, the attention to, to detail and the, and the sort of like the vision and the way that, and you, that just comes through in the best series. The A tours you, you know, that they've thought about and

5 (1h 1m 38s):
They all love

2 (1h 1m 38s):
Theater, right? Yeah, right.

5 (1h 1m 39s):
They all love theater. They all do.

2 (1h 1m 41s):
So a bit ago you said something about how the, like lustiness that Saul, you know, Jimmy feels for Francesca didn't, you know, necessarily a lot of that didn't necessarily make it into at least your first episode, but it got revisited and Better Call Saul. And I really appreciated that because I was like, Oh yeah, I, I would've wanted to see more of that. You know, I, I wanted to see more of that like lush stage dynamic. But you had,

5 (1h 2m 11s):
Well it's just funny because it's funny, I was just gonna say, it's funny because like actually in Breaking Bad, he would say all sorts of like rude, like honey tits and, and you know, you're killing me with that booty as our first scene. And he, and I remember later when we were in Better Call Saul, he was like, I just, this guy would say these things and so they had to figure out the segue cuz it's like, well you go there buddy. Like we've already shot all that stuff. Yeah. So we had to figure out how to get there. Right,

2 (1h 2m 37s):
Right, right. That's funny. So you had an opportunity that not a lot of actors get to have, which is to revisit a character. And you know, sometimes people say, Oh, if I had to go back and do it all over again, you know, after I watched my performance, I I might have done this or that. Did you have anything like that? Cause you got a lot more screen time in Better Call saw. I I think, did you, was there any, was there anything that you were super excited to bring in to the, the next iteration of your character?

5 (1h 3m 4s):
You know, I'll just say this like, I think because of the scripts, the scripts were so good. It, what was really fun for me was getting to play before she turned, like before she got Bam, I was just say before she got Vampire Bit by by Greed and, and Saul the, she was so sweet and like just how they explored that in the beginning, like that fir the first season I was back I got to do eight episodes, which was rad and it was, and I was just really so sweet and it was all in the scripts and like then, you know, then you go to the costume, go to your fittings and it's like, I'm in Pinks and flowers and like one of the shirts like Vince is like, I love this shirt cuz it has birds.

5 (1h 3m 46s):
And I'm like, how do you like, like it's just crazy that you're looking and you see that my shirt has birds or whatever and you picked it because it has birds on it. So that was what was super fun for me is just finding the beginning of it. And then, because I was off a couple seasons, like then finding, you know, the one time I came back was like, Oh, we're closing the office. Like how do you get from that to this? And luckily the writing helped a ton. But then just making that segue of, you know, what, what would have to happen to get there?

2 (1h 4m 20s):
The best is in Better Call Saul is when you see her decorating the office and it's so at the, at first and it's so beautiful and, and refined and elegant and, and then in your mind you're going, but this is not what the office looks like. Right. And to see that journey was so satisfying for a fan. Yeah. You know, so satisfying to see out there were,

5 (1h 4m 45s):
I just remember joking with Ray because we all came in and we were like, wow, cuz like in life it was just so like, look at all these lavenders and all these patterns and, and I was like, yeah. I said, Girl, it's like she got all of her Tuesday morning and, and Bed Bath Beyond coupons and went to town. Like she says, I need this many dollars. And then she just got all the water, like got everything she she could get for that. Called in or called her cousin in to do some woodwork or whatever. And it's just, you know, she, cuz I, I think that's, that's the thing. And that's why she became what she came, this job became her life, you know? And she, you know, always on call, Always on call.

1 (1h 5m 27s):
Her journey I think is so relatable and it's relatable. And also Super com makes for me a commentary. Like I was an assistant to a movie star. So like I know the turn that I took when I did that from being like super Midwestern and like, oh my God, we're like gonna make good movies to, oh my God, I'm literally probably doing something illegal for my boss right now. And I sort of don't give a fuck. And it's just very relatable in a human being to see someone be like you said, like, like bitten by the greed bug.

1 (1h 6m 10s):
But also like the things, and I think this is what the series does too, the lengths to which we go to, to get what we want at all costs. And the shit is not black and white. Like, like I love it. So I, I just, I'm really appreciative of your character's journey and the writing on that show, and it just makes my heart sing to know that like the details are thought about and people give a shit when they're making arts still, Thank God.

5 (1h 6m 42s):
Oh yeah, a thousand percent. And that's the thing too, with that cast, like with, with Brian and Aaron and those guys at Breaking Bad, but then also like, you know, with Ray and Bob and Jean Carlo and those guys, like, they, they're all like, can we run lines? Can we talk, Let's talk about what we want, What's going on? What are other possibilities? And, and, and really just present, like, like that was the thing is like, I've worked, you know, a few, you know, I'm that guy that like, if I'm lucky, like right now I've have an address built, but like, you know, you get to job in and you're like, you're there for a day or you're there for two days or whatever. And it's not always, you know, like the hap like, it's not like, oh it's great.

5 (1h 7m 22s):
Like you just go in, you do your thing and you split or whatever. But the thing with these guys is like, they really are about the, about the story and about what's happening and about making the best thing. And that's true from, and it starts from them down. So like, even like the ki person who's like your pa you know, at the dress rooms, like, they're into it and they're like, Hey, you know, I saw you do this, You know, like, it, it's awesome. Yeah. Like, it's just an awesome, it makes everybody, there's an really great experience as both shows.

2 (1h 7m 49s):
It makes everybody invested, right? Like the, when, when the quality is really high and people at the top and the bottom are taking it very seriously. It just makes, it gives everybody, it, it, it projects the message to everybody. Like, Oh no, no, we're taking this very seriously. This is not just a job for us. Like we're, we're, this is actually what we got into this industry for most of us to, you know, create something.

1 (1h 8m 10s):
What I hear also is like the, the spirit of fucking collaboration for God's sake. Like I walk on set now if there is not a spirit of collaboration, I'm like, oh no, no, no, no, I'm gonna go work at the ampm because at least there, and I've done many of those jobs where it's like, there is like forced collaboration in those settings. So like on sets now and I'm like a total under 10 day player situation. But like you can tell. Yeah. And you can tell though when people fucking care. So I now, I now when I walk on a set, you get the vibe of like, oh, this is like a, a, a dick wolf thing where nobody cares about the day players or oh shit, there's a spirit of collaboration here.

1 (1h 8m 56s):
How can I, how can I participate even as a under 10 and still get my and feel good about it? And I think as I get older, those are the sets I want to be a part of. I mean, you just, or else I'm gonna do another job. Like I, I don't know. But, but, but my question is also, are you sad? It's over. How do you

5 (1h 9m 15s):
Feel about Oh yeah, okay. I mean, for sure. I mean it was, you know, it's, it's one of those things you finish and you're like, Oh crap, we're done. And I didn't, I didn't take very many pictures and Oh, I didn't get to see this person on my last day. Or, you know, like, I don't know. Yeah. I'm sad it's over. It's one of those things that, you know, plus it was great. It was great to have that knowing that it could always come back and like, make you make your SAG insurance minimum. There

1 (1h 9m 39s):
You go. Yeah.

5 (1h 9m 40s):
You know, like, now you're kind of like, what's your next gig? I,

2 (1h 9m 45s):
I always think about that when people are on amazing shows. Like, it, it's such a, it's like bittersweet because there's this thought of like, Oh man, what? I might never be in anything like this again, as great as it was, as, you know, for as long as it lasted, residuals, whatever. But like, it, it's just, and it's just, and it's what we all get into it for. It's like a magical feeling. It's a feeling of that we're like connecting and vibing and, and sharing something very human and personal, but in a heightened, beautiful way that's interesting to look at.

1 (1h 10m 14s):
And the, and the other thing I, you know, in the interest of time, I wanna ask you, like, so, okay, so you're in a dry spell that's not gonna last, that's fucking life, all that bullshit. But like, what do you wanna do? Like what's happening with your theater company? What's happening with like, I, I mean we're around the same age, so it's like, what do you, what do you, I'm like obsessed with this idea of like, and maybe people don't give a shit about this, but I do about like legacy. Like when, what is your, what do you wanna do? What's happening?

5 (1h 10m 42s):
Yeah. Well I'm actually, this week I've been directing a play. So this week is tech week for me. So that's probably, I'm kind of like, so we have Texas this weekend for, we're doing the regional premiere of the Sound Inside by Adam Rap, which is a beautiful little play two-hander and working with another classmate of mine who is part of our company. We have a company of actors, directors playwrights at Kit, at Kitchen Dog. Not all SMU people, but a assorted mix of folks. But she happens to be an SMU person. And it, that play has a younger guy in IT who's about to graduate from UNT University North Texas. And what's great is being around that youth too. So you're kind of like, wow, I remember what it's like to be 22 and about to graduate and thinking I'm gonna, you know, move to California with my girlfriend and do whatever, you know, like that's kind of cr that's kind of wild and fantastic or whatever.

5 (1h 11m 33s):
So for me, I, you know, in our theaters we were, we just bought a, we bought a building in 2016. Yeah. Crazy. We bought a building in 2016. We had enough money to buy it, but not enough money to renovate it. And of course we started Capital Campaign, then Covid came of course. And so then we end up with the money we had raised, just paying off the loan we had that we had taken off a bridge loan to, to get the building. So we paid it off. So we own this building outright. Now it looks like we have enough to start renovations, at least in our minds. We think we do. We're in the, we're hiring general contractors right now. So that's the big thing that's about to happen is that, you know, we're gonna start renovating this building, this 10,000 square foot warehouse, which is good.

5 (1h 12m 20s):
And it's scary too, you know, like, I think because as most theater people will say, the Audi, you know, Yeah. Theater's back, but the audiences aren't, I think a lot of people found other shit to do during the pandemic and all of the press dried up. So now it's trying to one Lord, the people who were coming back and being like, Come on, you wanna get off a couch? I promise you'll like it, or whatever. But then, you know, where do you get the new folks? And so the idea of opening a building is a little scary cuz you're like, is it if we build it, you will come. I hope so. I don't know. But that's one of the things cuz I mean I've been with Kitchen Dog for so long, like, I do want, I mean, that is part of my legacy, if you wanna say that.

5 (1h 13m 5s):
I feel like I've made some good plays, both as an actor, as a director, as an artistic director. I feel like we've done some really quality work. I feel like we've fostered a lot of talent and a lot of talent that's went on to bigger things in other communities. Cuz that's the other thing. And we're in Dallas, like, so keeping talent here sometimes is hard. But I do feel like some of the talent that we've had and we've fostered on our stages, whether it's playwrights or actors, like a lot of people went on to success. So that's great. As far as a film person, I mean, you know, like, I don't know, I just, you know, who wouldn't wanna be on like, be on a show and have like a regular gig?

5 (1h 13m 46s):
Like I, I don't know, like who wouldn't wanna be in a cool movie with the Coen Brothers or you know, something or be in a really great indie film. Like, I don't know, at this point I'm like, I just wanna work. You just wanna act. You just wanna be be doing it. Yeah. Because you get like, yeah, just because like, I, I don't know if this is y'all's experience, but like I always feel like I start to get rusty and also start to start to get a little out joint. Like, cuz when when you're in the groove and you're working and, and then you're auditioning, like there's a confidence, there's a, there's a way you approach the audition that you're like, Yeah, yeah, this, that. And then when you're haven't booked in a little bit and you've done a few auditions and you're like, oh, then you start doing that weird thing of like, what do they want? And that's when you start fighting yourself

1 (1h 14m 27s):
Basically. Well I, you know, people always, speaking of Brian Cranston, like people always talk about the Brian Cranston's speech where he talks about, you know, the auditioning is the job, then you throw the script away and, and, and, and that's great. However, it's a lot easier to do when you're always auditioning. So when it's like people and when you're like, you know, I'll be honest, like I'm a Latina plus size lady at 47 and like he's a white dude who's already now famous. So it's e much easier said than done and I just call it like it is. But, but he's right in that you cannot make the outcome the thing, right. However, it's great,

5 (1h 15m 5s):
You'll

1 (1h 15m 6s):
Lose your mind and be a bad actor. It's bad all around, you'll lose the depression and you know, you'll need medication and all those things. So, but, but what, what I do love is the idea of like, not staying rusty. So for me what that means is finding outlets, whether it's acting or writing or a class or whatever. So do you, do you find that your work with Kitchen Dog like helps you stay, like not get out of joint? Is that one of the reasons that you don't just say fucking I'm gonna do full-time? Cuz you could, you could say like, look dude, I just came off breaking bad, fuck this shit. I'm gonna just focus on that. But does the kitchen, the kitchen dog must serve a different purpose as well, right?

1 (1h 15m 47s):
Like stay

5 (1h 15m 48s):
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Like, I love, the thing is, is I still really love the theater. I still really love it. Like I, I do love film. I'm not gonna, I mean, I do love that medium and I love that, you know, it makes you, you're, it pays a lot more than the theater, unfortunately. But I love theater. I love the like, love that connection to the audience being in the room with, you know, and hearing the, just, just the liveness of it and the fact that it could change at any moment. The mer you know, just that's not, you can never have that in film. And so I, I, I think it's a good balance for me cuz I, you know, like, and that's one of the reasons I haven't left Dallas is because I still really love the theater.

5 (1h 16m 29s):
I have thought about it for sure. Like, I've thought about like, oh, you know, if I'm gonna do it, is this the time to do it, to try it? And then it's like, oh, well, you know, like that thing of like, do you wanna look back and have regrets or whatever And I'm like, I, I just don't know, you know, like maybe it's the same thing of like, I'm tourists and I'm stubborn and I'm gonna stay stuck down here or whatever. But I don't know, I, I've thought about it more the fast past few years, you know, like, should I, is this the time to go? And,

1 (1h 16m 60s):
But here's the other, my other thing is like, maybe the thing that keeps you working is actually doing both. Like, so like maybe the juice is, and the gold is, you might not have one without the other is what I'm thinking. But it doesn't mean that you can't do more. But anyway, I think there's some magic alchemy that is literally happening because of Kitchen Dog leading to,

5 (1h 17m 26s):
I would say, yeah, I would say ab I would say absolutely. And I think it, there's definitely things like we've talked about with whether it's theater school or theater, whatever it is, you know, like I feel like there's some in the training that makes it, when you get the script that you're able to quickly break it down and come up with like, here's a backstory or here's this and that kind of is, you know, I feel like I have some tools that I can use that, you know, maybe somebody who doesn't have the training. Yeah. You know, but

2 (1h 17m 54s):
There were 1 million questions that I did not get a chance to ask you before we ran out of time, so maybe someday you'll come back and do a part two, but I could talk to you for hours. Thank you so much.

5 (1h 18m 6s):
Oh good. Yeah. Thank you. Ah, thanks man.

1 (1h 18m 10s):
Thank you. You, you know what you're giving me hope for theater and for film and also it's just really important for people I think myself, if no one else to hear that. Like all the shit is important creatively that, that we do. And, and why don't think you, a lot of our theater people would have the life we have if we didn't commit to the theater a long time

5 (1h 18m 38s):
Ago. I think that's right. Absolutely. Yeah. And not, not lose your mind on those self tapes cuz you know, it's real, it's real easy to do. I've been going down that rabbit hole, like, this tape was good, this tape was good. I don't understand why,

2 (1h 18m 51s):
Although not for nothing about rejection. Like, I, I, you know, yes, it's important to have a healthy relationship with a whatever, but at the same time it's like saying it's what I think sometimes people who maybe who aren't actors don't realize about it is telling us to get over it or move on is like saying, you know, Oh yeah, it's your favorite thing in the world to do. It's absolutely the best you ever feel in life. There's no better sensation than being on a great project. But when you don't get it, just don't think about it. It's like easier said than done.

5 (1h 19m 19s):
Yeah, they're, yeah. Easier said than bye.

4 (1h 19m 31s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends I survive. Theater School is an undeniable ink production. Jed Bosworth Ramirez and Gina Pucci are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina pci. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of Undeniable Inc, please visit our [e-mail]. You could also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

Creators & Guests

Host

Gina Pulice

Co-host, Writer, Actor, Director

Host

Jen Bosworth Ramirez

Co-host, actor, writer, consultant

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?