Matt Abrahams: Your tone is your trademark.
It's not just what you say and how you say it, it's the tone in which you deliver it.
My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today, I look forward to speaking with Jefferson Fisher.
Jefferson is a Texas Board certified trial attorney and
the founder of the Fisher Firm.
Jefferson teaches people how to navigate high stakes conversations by prioritizing
connection and clarity over winning.
As a compliment to his New York Times bestselling book, The Next
Conversation, he's now releasing The Next Conversation Workbook to further
help people apply his principles.
Welcome Jefferson.
I am really excited for this conversation.
It's rare that I get a chance to geek out with somebody on all things
communication, so thanks for being here.
Jefferson Fisher: Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
I mean, come on a conversation about conversations.
Let's go.
Matt Abrahams: So shall we get started?
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: Alright.
So you're a trial lawyer by training, yet you've famously said that we
should stop trying to win arguments.
What's the approach we should take instead and why?
Jefferson Fisher: As soon as you try to start winning arguments, you're losing.
People think that in litigation, in the trial world, that's all
you do is win arguments, but that's really not what you do.
You only have so much limited information to go off of, and so a
lot of the times what you're left with is saying, okay, instead of trying to
win an argument, what can I do, what I say is arguments are not something
to win, they're something to unravel.
It's like a line, a piece of thread, or a water hose.
You get knots in it, you get kinks in it, and the better and more efficient
you get, the faster you get at identifying and undoing the knot, the
better the conversation's going to be.
So instead of having to win, it's this mentality of having something to learn.
So I say, rather than having something to prove, have something to learn.
Matt Abrahams: So it has to do with the overall approach, right?
Take this approach of learning, and it's not a competition, it's more about
connection and really understanding the other person's perspective.
Is that a fair way to characterize it?
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah.
I mean, who wants to be around the person who always has to be right?
The person who always has to have the last word, the person who is just
the brick wall that can never hear another person's opinion, who wants
to live in their own echo chamber.
It does not build anything.
It only decreases everything.
That the only thing you've won with that kind of person is contempt.
You've won resentment.
You've won awkward silence.
There's nothing good that comes from winning an argument.
Matt Abrahams: So how best does one approach a conversation to learn?
Is it inquiry through questions?
Is it storytelling?
How can we actually execute on that idea?
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, you ask more and talk less.
A lot of the times it's using clarifying questions to be able to probe and to get
somebody else to share their perspective.
It's setting the standard at not winning, not setting the standard at
changing their mind, setting the standard to understanding their perspective.
Matt Abrahams: And there's a big distinction between
understanding and agreeing, right?
We listen for understanding, and that allows us to then begin
to foster that communication to perhaps move towards agreement.
I particularly like asking open questions, help me understand why,
what's going on for you there?
Do you have specific questions you like to lean into to help with that understanding?
Jefferson Fisher: Depends on the context.
If I can tell I'm in a conversation that seems to be getting friction and
I can tell that the other person is starting to get frustrated and things
are starting to get bogged down, I'll usually ask, what's coming up for you?
It's a way of making sure that I'm communicating in that moment
that I can tell something else is bubbling up underneath.
That something is happening deeper than what's on the surface, and I've
always got an answer back from it.
It's far better than what's wrong with you, but if I say, what's coming
up for you that's indicating, hey, I can see something rising within
you that's causing friction here, so why don't we talk about it?
But the key here is not to use questions that begin with why.
Why it's a lot more accusatory.
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.
Why questions can really put somebody on the spot.
And I like your idea of what's bubbling up for you.
It strikes me that what you're doing in those moments though, is you're
really observing, not only the communication, but how it's being said.
So a lot of us struggle with taking that step back to be monitoring the
communication that's going on while we're in the midst of having the communication.
You know, those of us who study this talk about meta awareness, the awareness of
our communication as we're having it.
Are there certain cues and clues that you look for?
Is it faster speaking, more emotional language?
What are some of the things that you're looking for to show that there's some
tension building up, some friction?
Jefferson Fisher: I pay attention to pace a lot.
How fast are they pushing the conversation?
Faster they push it, the more they typically want it over with.
You know, if I can pause, have that kind of, what's coming up for you?
What am I missing?
How's that hitting you?
These open-ended questions that breed space, because sometimes that's
what I'm most trying to pick up on.
What's the rhythm of the conversation?
That's what I'm looking for and that tends to tell me if the person I'm talking
to is, are we in the pocket together?
Are we connecting, or are we on different frequencies?
Like they're on FM and I'm still on AM.
There's no way we're gonna be able to reach each other, we're
not gonna connect, you know?
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.
I really like the idea of pace, because you're talking about it,
I think, at two different levels.
There's the pace at which somebody is speaking, speaking quickly,
but then there's the pace of pushing the content forward.
There's, as you said, a rhythm to communication and conversation, and
you can feel when somebody's really trying to drive and push it forward.
And both levels, both types of pace, I think are insightful to see if
the person is agitated, concerned if there's friction building up.
So you need to be cognizant and focusing on that as well as just being
engaged in the communication itself.
You know, I've read that you have a mantra you like to say, observe, don't absorb.
Many of our listeners have a tendency, especially when constructive feedback
is sent their way, to really feel it, to take it on and perhaps get defensive.
What advice and guidance do you have to help us really be present and observe
without absorbing something and perhaps reacting too soon or too negatively?
Jefferson Fisher: What I mean is you get to watch a conversation happen without
absorbing all of it and deciding that, well, what they say is just who I am.
So if you were to have the mindset of there is something for me
here if I'm willing to listen, then things tend to go better.
I know that when you get feedback from somebody, they say, don't
take criticism from somebody you wouldn't take advice from.
It's a balance between hearing what they say and knowing are they meaning it for
your good or ultimately for your peril.
Are they wanting to actually try and build you up?
Is it something that you just feel sensitive about?
Did they hit something on a nerve or are you actually interested
in trying to build on with it?
So it's, it's all contextual.
Matt Abrahams: I really like everything you said, but the thing
that really stood out to me was there's something to learn here.
And when you look for the learning, especially if it's coming from a source
you respect, it can be very helpful.
And that can help take away perhaps some of the initial defensiveness that
one feels, and approaching it from a place of gratitude and expressing
your gratitude and saying thanks can really help with some of that.
I wanna move to a different topic.
Often our meetings and conversations can go off the rails.
They don't go the way we expected.
You have a framework you call one frame, one issue.
How can we set appropriate conversational frames at the beginning, or even before
we begin the conversation, so that we can manage this and keep it on track in a
way that we want, so we don't have scope creep or anxiety that comes from that?
Jefferson Fisher: I cannot stand meetings where you get in, they go, okay,
everybody, we have a lot to cover today.
You never get outta it feeling like you covered really anything.
You know, because you're too spread thin rather than going deep on a few issues.
It's applying that same kind of idea, when you talk about everything, you
talk about nothing at the same time.
So what does a frame do?
Like a picture, it enhances what's in it.
If I can put a frame around the conversation, it does two things.
One, it enhances the conversation, it highlights it, it makes it very clear.
Second, what it does is it gets rid of all the anxiety of the stuff that you
might think we're gonna be talking about.
So if I text you and I say, we need to talk, and nobody gets that
text and goes, oh, high five, yes.
I can't wait.
Do you see that they need to talk?
It's always terrible, that feeling.
Why?
Because you have all that anxiety about what are we gonna talk about.
Well, you can remove that anxiety by using a frame, and I really have it
in three steps is, one, that I tell somebody what I want to talk about.
Give them the gift of telling them what you want to talk about.
Don't make them have to ask, tell them the topic, the subject, whatever it is.
Number two, tell them how you want the conversation to end.
What's the checkered flag?
Where are you going?
What I like to use is, what I want to take away from, what do I want
to walk away from the conversation.
And the three I get their buy-in into it.
That's as simple as, sound good?
Does that work?
Can we do that?
'cause once you get that little nod of, yeah, I'll talk to you about that.
It's like an implicit contract.
They now are bought into what I committed to talking to this about you.
Now they know I don't talk about anything else.
There's no other collateral issues.
You have a straight path A to B. I know exactly what we're gonna talk about.
So it's a way of removing the difficult from difficult conversations,
and now it's just talking.
Matt Abrahams: It sets expectations, certainly, and it sets your
vision of what success looks like, and that can be helpful.
It does require that your conversation partner or partners go along with it and
have the same ability to focus as you do.
I wanna flip to talking about digital communication.
You like me, have a digital presence in your communication and you distinguish
between transmission and connection.
I think many people today, especially in the world of social media and digital
communication, confuse sending a message with actually communicating a message.
How does transmission fail us and how can we create or increase the connective
nature of our communication, especially in a world where most of our communication
is intermediated by some technology?
Jefferson Fisher: Technology has allowed us to communicate
with people all over the world.
People you and I would never come in contact with our entire life.
And so it is pivotal and it's crucial to still have that technology.
What I would want to see is the ability to increase the mediums.
So if it's something that somebody really matters to you, it's not just
communicating digitally on a text or an email, it's to see them in person.
It's to make a phone call.
It's to write a letter.
Like, diversify communication mediums.
It provides a different touchpoint in a way that's not gonna be like anything
anybody else can do that's unique to you.
My handwriting's different than your handwriting, but yet you
can see my personality in the handwriting, same as yours.
And I know that if you want to increase what's good about digital
communication is using it to aid and support rather than using it to detract.
Matt Abrahams: So the take home message there is if it's
significant and important reach out.
I like your notion of diversify your channels of communication.
I think there's a lot of pressure to be efficient and
that efficiency gets in the way.
Your tone is your trademark.
I think that's a very powerful statement that you make.
And I agree.
Many of us though, are unaware of the tone of our messages.
We are so fixated on what we're saying and are we saying it appropriately?
And did I use the right words?
How can you audit your tone to be aware of how you're coming across?
Jefferson Fisher: Well, you can say from the practical side, you
record it and you listen to it.
You get comfortable with hearing it.
Many of us are not used to that.
And we'll hear our voice for the first time and we'll be like,
is that how I really sound?
So you could practically record it, try to improve it as you want.
You could take coaching, so you have ways you wanna do that.
I like to apply my tone to or compare it to music.
So you think about like what band would match your style of communication.
There are times like if I want you to listen to me and to slow down, and
if I want to make you uncomfortable, I'm not going to blast AC/DC.
Or I'm not gonna blast Eminem.
Like I'm not going to do that if I want you to be comfortable
and ugh, lower your shoulders.
What, I'm gonna put on some easy listening, I'm gonna put on some singer
songwriter James Taylor type stuff.
And so that's the kind of tone of like, am I giving you a voice?
So it's trying to find what song does your voice give?
Because if I want you to be calm, I'm gonna talk a little bit calmer.
That's the tone is your trademark.
If you're somebody who's brash and angry and mad all the time,
that's who you're going to become.
Your tone controls everything.
And there's plenty of times you know it's not your words, it's your tone.
Like how many times have you probably heard from your mom or
somebody go, I don't like your tone.
It's something within us, or we hear somebody say something, and the words
might be right, but we go, you know what?
I don't like the way you said that.
That's what ends up controlling the day.
So yeah, tone is absolutely your trademark.
Matt Abrahams: I really do like that saying and tone, again, I
think there are two levels here.
There's finding your authentic natural tone, that's who you are, and that's
where coaching and recording can help you.
But you also were talking about using tone strategically to
help you reinforce your message.
So if we're having a really serious conversation I need to reflect on,
what tone do I want to bring to this conversation or have this conversation
have, and are there ways I can leverage tone to really reinforce what I'm saying?
And I do think at both levels it's really important.
Using Tone as a tool is a very creative and strategic way to help you.
And I appreciate that.
Congratulations on your new workbook.
People who know my work know that I'm all about practical, tactical
advice and guidance, and a workbook's a great way to bring that about.
In your new workbook, you have lots of assessments.
Your initial assessment has you asking readers if they struggle
with stopping myself from protecting other people's feelings.
Why do you believe we have this instinct?
And why is this the first self-assessment in your book?
I could imagine others things could have come first.
Jefferson Fisher: As a society, we're afraid to disappoint other people.
We're afraid of their reaction.
So what do you turn to?
You turn to people pleasing and you turn to making sure that you're always last.
And you give and you give, and you, you say, I'm not worth anything
unless you think I'm worth anything.
And we tie our identity to how much we serve is how much we
can be okay with ourselves.
And so that's why I wanted to start with it.
Is, Hey, let's take a hard look.
Let's have a cold shower for a second.
Are you so focused and so afraid to disappoint somebody that you'd
be willing to lower the way you see yourself even just a little bit?
Is that okay with you?
And to kind of have that self-reflective moment because if you want to improve
how you communicate, I'd say skill number one is you have to learn to
be okay disappointing some people.
Matt Abrahams: I like that you start with the internal conversation first.
I think that's a really important place for people to start.
You know, if you're working on your communication, working on having
better conversations, start with that conversation you have yourself,
and look at your motivations.
Are they truly your motivations or these societal pressures
that you're conforming to?
I like that, and I, and I spent some time doing the assessment myself, so thank you.
In your workbook, you ask readers to write an internal manual.
Can you share with us what this internal manual is?
I don't know that I'd want other people having my internal manual, but talk
to me about what it is and how it can help us identify sort of the rules and
procedures that we leverage and use.
Jefferson Fisher: I'd be willing to bet that most people don't really take an
objective view about how they communicate, how they choose to communicate.
They invest in a lot of things.
They know how they make their coffee.
They know what goes into X, Y, and Z, but they don't know how they communicate.
So the idea of a manual is to write down what you allow and what you don't allow.
Because if you don't, otherwise people just have a remote control to you.
They have a remote control to your emotions, to your fears, and to
your insecurities, where they always know how to what, push your buttons.
But a manual says, no, no, hey, if you wanna communicate with me,
this is how we're going to do it.
So instead of this idea, like a remote control would say, you can't talk to
me that way, a manual has this idea of like, hey, look, if you turn to
page 74, paragraph D, you'll see, yeah, I don't respond to that volume.
I don't respond to that tone.
That's below my standard of respect.
It's this idea of do you have written out, for yourself, how I will be
communicated, how I'll be talked to and how I'm going to communicate.
Do you have any idea at all?
And maybe it's okay to like write it out and, yeah, it's hard 'cause life happens
and maybe you don't follow it all the time and there's exceptions and whatnot, but
you need to have some kind of rough idea of what you will choose to have allowed,
be permitted, who has access to you in a way that can communicate that matters.
Matt Abrahams: I like this idea of reflecting on your communication
and thinking about what's acceptable and unacceptable.
I think in my manual, I'd have to have several appendices because
different contexts require different operating procedures.
But I do like the idea of self-reflection and using the analogy
of a manual makes a lot of sense.
So before we end, I like to ask three questions of everybody I interview.
One I create just for you, and two are similar for everybody.
Are you up for that?
Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, let's do it.
Matt Abrahams: All right.
So like me, you host a podcast, you write books, you deliver keynote speeches.
All of this allows us privilege to interacting with lots of amazing people.
What's one lesson you've learned from these different situations,
your podcast, your writing, your keynoting, that's changed the way you
communicate something you've learned?
Jefferson Fisher: We're all still figuring it out, and I find that no matter who
I'm talking to or where I am, it's easy to think that they got it all figured
out, and once you really start to scratch beneath the surface, they don't
really know what they're doing either.
And so you just have to fail enough to kind of create a pattern of what kind
of works and that's what you go with.
That's what I've learned.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I think that's right.
We make this assumption that everybody else has got this figured
out and we don't, and in fact, we're all figuring it out together.
I appreciate you sharing.
Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Jefferson Fisher: I have a friend whom you probably know, Chris Voss.
And the reason I admire him is because we did a thing on stage
once and somebody said afterwards, y'all are kind of like fire and ice.
Like I'm the more softer side.
Chris is not, you know, he, he is, let's get the deal done and
negotiation and that balances me.
And so I always appreciate that he'll say something, I go, yeah,
I think that makes a lot of sense.
But in terms of kinda always walking away with something practical,
that is something that challenges me, I'd probably say Chris.
Matt Abrahams: Chris is a great guy.
We've had him on the show and both of you provide really practical, tactical
advice and ways of getting into and out of communicative situations
that I appreciate, so thank you.
Final question.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Jefferson Fisher: One, regulation.
You have to be able to say things with control, and you do that not
by controlling the other person, you do that by controlling yourself.
Two would be discernment, being able to know what is true and to
speak what is true, to be assertive, to say things with confidence.
And number three would be setting direction.
Having a, a goal, setting your intention of the destination and to create
connection with the other person.
So when you're able to say it with control, say it with confidence and say
it to connect, I think that's a, a pretty good recipe for a good conversation.
Matt Abrahams: I agree.
Regulation, discernment, direction, absolutely key ingredients.
All predicated on what we've talked a lot about, which is self-reflection,
understanding yourself, being able to determine where you're coming
from before you try to engage others.
Jefferson, I knew this would be a really great conversation.
I knew we'd have an opportunity to really engage in ideas.
I appreciate your input, your insights.
Thank you for the time and congratulations on the new workbook.
Jefferson Fisher: Thank you so much.
Thanks for having me.
It was great.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about communication and negotiation, please listen
to episode 228 with Chris Voss.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company.
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