WEBVTT 00:00:03.030 --> 00:00:04.800 Matt Abrahams: Your tone is your trademark. 00:00:05.010 --> 00:00:09.720 It's not just what you say and how you say it, it's the tone in which you deliver it. 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:13.290 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:13.290 --> 00:00:15.090 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:18.610 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:19.460 --> 00:00:21.885 Today, I look forward to speaking with Jefferson Fisher. 00:00:22.245 --> 00:00:25.275 Jefferson is a Texas Board certified trial attorney and 00:00:25.275 --> 00:00:26.775 the founder of the Fisher Firm. 00:00:27.255 --> 00:00:31.755 Jefferson teaches people how to navigate high stakes conversations by prioritizing 00:00:31.755 --> 00:00:34.005 connection and clarity over winning. 00:00:34.365 --> 00:00:38.025 As a compliment to his New York Times bestselling book, The Next 00:00:38.025 --> 00:00:42.135 Conversation, he's now releasing The Next Conversation Workbook to further 00:00:42.135 --> 00:00:44.475 help people apply his principles. 00:00:44.770 --> 00:00:45.850 Welcome Jefferson. 00:00:45.910 --> 00:00:48.370 I am really excited for this conversation. 00:00:48.370 --> 00:00:51.790 It's rare that I get a chance to geek out with somebody on all things 00:00:51.790 --> 00:00:53.620 communication, so thanks for being here. 00:00:53.800 --> 00:00:54.370 Jefferson Fisher: Absolutely. 00:00:54.370 --> 00:00:55.210 Thanks for having me. 00:00:55.210 --> 00:00:57.790 I mean, come on a conversation about conversations. 00:00:57.790 --> 00:00:58.330 Let's go. 00:00:58.450 --> 00:00:59.350 Matt Abrahams: So shall we get started? 00:00:59.440 --> 00:01:00.070 Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, let's do it. 00:01:00.160 --> 00:01:00.730 Matt Abrahams: Alright. 00:01:00.790 --> 00:01:05.770 So you're a trial lawyer by training, yet you've famously said that we 00:01:05.835 --> 00:01:08.560 should stop trying to win arguments. 00:01:08.830 --> 00:01:11.890 What's the approach we should take instead and why? 00:01:12.300 --> 00:01:15.120 Jefferson Fisher: As soon as you try to start winning arguments, you're losing. 00:01:15.330 --> 00:01:18.570 People think that in litigation, in the trial world, that's all 00:01:18.570 --> 00:01:22.470 you do is win arguments, but that's really not what you do. 00:01:22.590 --> 00:01:25.920 You only have so much limited information to go off of, and so a 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:29.610 lot of the times what you're left with is saying, okay, instead of trying to 00:01:29.610 --> 00:01:33.540 win an argument, what can I do, what I say is arguments are not something 00:01:33.540 --> 00:01:35.850 to win, they're something to unravel. 00:01:36.090 --> 00:01:38.370 It's like a line, a piece of thread, or a water hose. 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:42.210 You get knots in it, you get kinks in it, and the better and more efficient 00:01:42.210 --> 00:01:46.590 you get, the faster you get at identifying and undoing the knot, the 00:01:46.590 --> 00:01:48.540 better the conversation's going to be. 00:01:48.540 --> 00:01:52.590 So instead of having to win, it's this mentality of having something to learn. 00:01:52.590 --> 00:01:55.625 So I say, rather than having something to prove, have something to learn. 00:01:56.240 --> 00:01:58.520 Matt Abrahams: So it has to do with the overall approach, right? 00:01:58.520 --> 00:02:01.880 Take this approach of learning, and it's not a competition, it's more about 00:02:01.880 --> 00:02:05.480 connection and really understanding the other person's perspective. 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:06.860 Is that a fair way to characterize it? 00:02:07.070 --> 00:02:07.340 Jefferson Fisher: Yeah. 00:02:07.340 --> 00:02:09.860 I mean, who wants to be around the person who always has to be right? 00:02:10.070 --> 00:02:13.790 The person who always has to have the last word, the person who is just 00:02:13.850 --> 00:02:18.170 the brick wall that can never hear another person's opinion, who wants 00:02:18.170 --> 00:02:20.150 to live in their own echo chamber. 00:02:20.450 --> 00:02:22.635 It does not build anything. 00:02:22.695 --> 00:02:24.614 It only decreases everything. 00:02:24.614 --> 00:02:27.825 That the only thing you've won with that kind of person is contempt. 00:02:27.885 --> 00:02:29.204 You've won resentment. 00:02:29.265 --> 00:02:30.825 You've won awkward silence. 00:02:31.155 --> 00:02:34.635 There's nothing good that comes from winning an argument. 00:02:34.845 --> 00:02:38.834 Matt Abrahams: So how best does one approach a conversation to learn? 00:02:38.834 --> 00:02:40.785 Is it inquiry through questions? 00:02:40.785 --> 00:02:41.984 Is it storytelling? 00:02:42.225 --> 00:02:45.465 How can we actually execute on that idea? 00:02:45.795 --> 00:02:48.084 Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, you ask more and talk less. 00:02:48.475 --> 00:02:53.174 A lot of the times it's using clarifying questions to be able to probe and to get 00:02:53.174 --> 00:02:54.825 somebody else to share their perspective. 00:02:55.364 --> 00:02:59.864 It's setting the standard at not winning, not setting the standard at 00:02:59.864 --> 00:03:04.875 changing their mind, setting the standard to understanding their perspective. 00:03:05.395 --> 00:03:06.795 Matt Abrahams: And there's a big distinction between 00:03:06.795 --> 00:03:08.565 understanding and agreeing, right? 00:03:08.775 --> 00:03:12.705 We listen for understanding, and that allows us to then begin 00:03:12.705 --> 00:03:15.975 to foster that communication to perhaps move towards agreement. 00:03:16.305 --> 00:03:21.105 I particularly like asking open questions, help me understand why, 00:03:21.255 --> 00:03:22.755 what's going on for you there? 00:03:23.055 --> 00:03:27.435 Do you have specific questions you like to lean into to help with that understanding? 00:03:27.989 --> 00:03:29.310 Jefferson Fisher: Depends on the context. 00:03:29.429 --> 00:03:33.780 If I can tell I'm in a conversation that seems to be getting friction and 00:03:33.780 --> 00:03:37.859 I can tell that the other person is starting to get frustrated and things 00:03:37.859 --> 00:03:41.790 are starting to get bogged down, I'll usually ask, what's coming up for you? 00:03:42.329 --> 00:03:46.140 It's a way of making sure that I'm communicating in that moment 00:03:46.140 --> 00:03:48.640 that I can tell something else is bubbling up underneath. 00:03:48.980 --> 00:03:52.859 That something is happening deeper than what's on the surface, and I've 00:03:52.859 --> 00:03:54.390 always got an answer back from it. 00:03:54.390 --> 00:03:57.420 It's far better than what's wrong with you, but if I say, what's coming 00:03:57.420 --> 00:04:01.079 up for you that's indicating, hey, I can see something rising within 00:04:01.079 --> 00:04:04.050 you that's causing friction here, so why don't we talk about it? 00:04:04.050 --> 00:04:09.120 But the key here is not to use questions that begin with why. 00:04:09.455 --> 00:04:12.035 Why it's a lot more accusatory. 00:04:12.305 --> 00:04:13.175 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:04:13.175 --> 00:04:16.115 Why questions can really put somebody on the spot. 00:04:16.175 --> 00:04:18.214 And I like your idea of what's bubbling up for you. 00:04:18.515 --> 00:04:21.845 It strikes me that what you're doing in those moments though, is you're 00:04:21.845 --> 00:04:27.035 really observing, not only the communication, but how it's being said. 00:04:27.035 --> 00:04:32.330 So a lot of us struggle with taking that step back to be monitoring the 00:04:32.330 --> 00:04:36.680 communication that's going on while we're in the midst of having the communication. 00:04:36.680 --> 00:04:40.640 You know, those of us who study this talk about meta awareness, the awareness of 00:04:40.640 --> 00:04:42.320 our communication as we're having it. 00:04:42.650 --> 00:04:45.590 Are there certain cues and clues that you look for? 00:04:45.590 --> 00:04:49.340 Is it faster speaking, more emotional language? 00:04:49.345 --> 00:04:52.820 What are some of the things that you're looking for to show that there's some 00:04:52.820 --> 00:04:54.680 tension building up, some friction? 00:04:54.980 --> 00:04:56.840 Jefferson Fisher: I pay attention to pace a lot. 00:04:56.960 --> 00:04:59.300 How fast are they pushing the conversation? 00:04:59.620 --> 00:05:02.590 Faster they push it, the more they typically want it over with. 00:05:02.830 --> 00:05:06.220 You know, if I can pause, have that kind of, what's coming up for you? 00:05:06.220 --> 00:05:07.240 What am I missing? 00:05:07.510 --> 00:05:08.650 How's that hitting you? 00:05:08.860 --> 00:05:12.820 These open-ended questions that breed space, because sometimes that's 00:05:12.820 --> 00:05:14.920 what I'm most trying to pick up on. 00:05:15.190 --> 00:05:17.320 What's the rhythm of the conversation? 00:05:17.500 --> 00:05:22.360 That's what I'm looking for and that tends to tell me if the person I'm talking 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:25.435 to is, are we in the pocket together? 00:05:25.585 --> 00:05:28.135 Are we connecting, or are we on different frequencies? 00:05:28.284 --> 00:05:30.445 Like they're on FM and I'm still on AM. 00:05:30.534 --> 00:05:32.844 There's no way we're gonna be able to reach each other, we're 00:05:32.844 --> 00:05:33.924 not gonna connect, you know? 00:05:34.104 --> 00:05:34.465 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:05:34.674 --> 00:05:37.825 I really like the idea of pace, because you're talking about it, 00:05:37.825 --> 00:05:39.294 I think, at two different levels. 00:05:39.294 --> 00:05:42.474 There's the pace at which somebody is speaking, speaking quickly, 00:05:42.620 --> 00:05:45.775 but then there's the pace of pushing the content forward. 00:05:45.804 --> 00:05:49.554 There's, as you said, a rhythm to communication and conversation, and 00:05:49.554 --> 00:05:52.914 you can feel when somebody's really trying to drive and push it forward. 00:05:53.190 --> 00:05:58.170 And both levels, both types of pace, I think are insightful to see if 00:05:58.170 --> 00:06:01.410 the person is agitated, concerned if there's friction building up. 00:06:01.410 --> 00:06:05.460 So you need to be cognizant and focusing on that as well as just being 00:06:05.460 --> 00:06:07.650 engaged in the communication itself. 00:06:08.010 --> 00:06:12.630 You know, I've read that you have a mantra you like to say, observe, don't absorb. 00:06:12.945 --> 00:06:18.675 Many of our listeners have a tendency, especially when constructive feedback 00:06:18.675 --> 00:06:23.055 is sent their way, to really feel it, to take it on and perhaps get defensive. 00:06:23.235 --> 00:06:28.095 What advice and guidance do you have to help us really be present and observe 00:06:28.095 --> 00:06:32.625 without absorbing something and perhaps reacting too soon or too negatively? 00:06:33.045 --> 00:06:37.215 Jefferson Fisher: What I mean is you get to watch a conversation happen without 00:06:37.485 --> 00:06:41.775 absorbing all of it and deciding that, well, what they say is just who I am. 00:06:41.955 --> 00:06:45.345 So if you were to have the mindset of there is something for me 00:06:45.345 --> 00:06:49.425 here if I'm willing to listen, then things tend to go better. 00:06:49.875 --> 00:06:54.135 I know that when you get feedback from somebody, they say, don't 00:06:54.135 --> 00:06:56.685 take criticism from somebody you wouldn't take advice from. 00:06:57.045 --> 00:07:01.605 It's a balance between hearing what they say and knowing are they meaning it for 00:07:01.605 --> 00:07:04.425 your good or ultimately for your peril. 00:07:04.695 --> 00:07:06.915 Are they wanting to actually try and build you up? 00:07:07.155 --> 00:07:09.345 Is it something that you just feel sensitive about? 00:07:09.525 --> 00:07:13.005 Did they hit something on a nerve or are you actually interested 00:07:13.005 --> 00:07:15.285 in trying to build on with it? 00:07:15.615 --> 00:07:17.385 So it's, it's all contextual. 00:07:17.805 --> 00:07:20.085 Matt Abrahams: I really like everything you said, but the thing 00:07:20.085 --> 00:07:23.295 that really stood out to me was there's something to learn here. 00:07:23.625 --> 00:07:27.165 And when you look for the learning, especially if it's coming from a source 00:07:27.165 --> 00:07:29.205 you respect, it can be very helpful. 00:07:29.385 --> 00:07:32.955 And that can help take away perhaps some of the initial defensiveness that 00:07:32.955 --> 00:07:37.094 one feels, and approaching it from a place of gratitude and expressing 00:07:37.094 --> 00:07:40.365 your gratitude and saying thanks can really help with some of that. 00:07:40.755 --> 00:07:43.005 I wanna move to a different topic. 00:07:43.155 --> 00:07:46.665 Often our meetings and conversations can go off the rails. 00:07:46.665 --> 00:07:48.345 They don't go the way we expected. 00:07:48.585 --> 00:07:52.125 You have a framework you call one frame, one issue. 00:07:52.485 --> 00:07:57.825 How can we set appropriate conversational frames at the beginning, or even before 00:07:57.825 --> 00:08:03.255 we begin the conversation, so that we can manage this and keep it on track in a 00:08:03.255 --> 00:08:06.825 way that we want, so we don't have scope creep or anxiety that comes from that? 00:08:07.490 --> 00:08:11.360 Jefferson Fisher: I cannot stand meetings where you get in, they go, okay, 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:12.800 everybody, we have a lot to cover today. 00:08:13.130 --> 00:08:16.010 You never get outta it feeling like you covered really anything. 00:08:16.190 --> 00:08:20.659 You know, because you're too spread thin rather than going deep on a few issues. 00:08:20.900 --> 00:08:24.260 It's applying that same kind of idea, when you talk about everything, you 00:08:24.260 --> 00:08:25.969 talk about nothing at the same time. 00:08:25.969 --> 00:08:27.200 So what does a frame do? 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:29.990 Like a picture, it enhances what's in it. 00:08:30.405 --> 00:08:33.465 If I can put a frame around the conversation, it does two things. 00:08:33.465 --> 00:08:37.965 One, it enhances the conversation, it highlights it, it makes it very clear. 00:08:38.385 --> 00:08:42.945 Second, what it does is it gets rid of all the anxiety of the stuff that you 00:08:42.945 --> 00:08:44.235 might think we're gonna be talking about. 00:08:44.235 --> 00:08:48.345 So if I text you and I say, we need to talk, and nobody gets that 00:08:48.345 --> 00:08:51.615 text and goes, oh, high five, yes. 00:08:51.645 --> 00:08:52.215 I can't wait. 00:08:52.425 --> 00:08:53.565 Do you see that they need to talk? 00:08:53.685 --> 00:08:55.365 It's always terrible, that feeling. 00:08:55.365 --> 00:08:55.605 Why? 00:08:55.605 --> 00:08:58.790 Because you have all that anxiety about what are we gonna talk about. 00:08:59.030 --> 00:09:03.050 Well, you can remove that anxiety by using a frame, and I really have it 00:09:03.050 --> 00:09:06.709 in three steps is, one, that I tell somebody what I want to talk about. 00:09:06.920 --> 00:09:10.490 Give them the gift of telling them what you want to talk about. 00:09:10.790 --> 00:09:13.880 Don't make them have to ask, tell them the topic, the subject, whatever it is. 00:09:13.880 --> 00:09:17.660 Number two, tell them how you want the conversation to end. 00:09:18.025 --> 00:09:19.045 What's the checkered flag? 00:09:19.225 --> 00:09:19.855 Where are you going? 00:09:20.185 --> 00:09:23.485 What I like to use is, what I want to take away from, what do I want 00:09:23.485 --> 00:09:25.555 to walk away from the conversation. 00:09:25.645 --> 00:09:27.565 And the three I get their buy-in into it. 00:09:27.745 --> 00:09:29.545 That's as simple as, sound good? 00:09:29.725 --> 00:09:30.325 Does that work? 00:09:30.535 --> 00:09:31.285 Can we do that? 00:09:31.765 --> 00:09:35.395 'cause once you get that little nod of, yeah, I'll talk to you about that. 00:09:35.485 --> 00:09:37.225 It's like an implicit contract. 00:09:37.285 --> 00:09:41.435 They now are bought into what I committed to talking to this about you. 00:09:41.435 --> 00:09:43.175 Now they know I don't talk about anything else. 00:09:43.175 --> 00:09:44.375 There's no other collateral issues. 00:09:44.704 --> 00:09:47.525 You have a straight path A to B. I know exactly what we're gonna talk about. 00:09:47.735 --> 00:09:52.355 So it's a way of removing the difficult from difficult conversations, 00:09:52.355 --> 00:09:53.375 and now it's just talking. 00:09:53.675 --> 00:09:57.824 Matt Abrahams: It sets expectations, certainly, and it sets your 00:09:57.854 --> 00:10:00.464 vision of what success looks like, and that can be helpful. 00:10:00.704 --> 00:10:05.324 It does require that your conversation partner or partners go along with it and 00:10:05.324 --> 00:10:07.545 have the same ability to focus as you do. 00:10:07.935 --> 00:10:11.265 I wanna flip to talking about digital communication. 00:10:11.354 --> 00:10:15.495 You like me, have a digital presence in your communication and you distinguish 00:10:15.495 --> 00:10:17.564 between transmission and connection. 00:10:17.714 --> 00:10:21.915 I think many people today, especially in the world of social media and digital 00:10:21.915 --> 00:10:27.775 communication, confuse sending a message with actually communicating a message. 00:10:27.925 --> 00:10:33.775 How does transmission fail us and how can we create or increase the connective 00:10:33.775 --> 00:10:39.175 nature of our communication, especially in a world where most of our communication 00:10:39.175 --> 00:10:41.425 is intermediated by some technology? 00:10:41.819 --> 00:10:44.730 Jefferson Fisher: Technology has allowed us to communicate 00:10:44.730 --> 00:10:46.050 with people all over the world. 00:10:46.050 --> 00:10:49.620 People you and I would never come in contact with our entire life. 00:10:49.710 --> 00:10:53.370 And so it is pivotal and it's crucial to still have that technology. 00:10:53.370 --> 00:10:57.480 What I would want to see is the ability to increase the mediums. 00:10:57.750 --> 00:11:01.319 So if it's something that somebody really matters to you, it's not just 00:11:01.319 --> 00:11:05.850 communicating digitally on a text or an email, it's to see them in person. 00:11:06.030 --> 00:11:07.170 It's to make a phone call. 00:11:07.290 --> 00:11:08.340 It's to write a letter. 00:11:08.579 --> 00:11:12.454 Like, diversify communication mediums. 00:11:12.665 --> 00:11:16.204 It provides a different touchpoint in a way that's not gonna be like anything 00:11:16.204 --> 00:11:19.055 anybody else can do that's unique to you. 00:11:19.055 --> 00:11:21.275 My handwriting's different than your handwriting, but yet you 00:11:21.275 --> 00:11:24.094 can see my personality in the handwriting, same as yours. 00:11:24.185 --> 00:11:28.324 And I know that if you want to increase what's good about digital 00:11:28.324 --> 00:11:32.645 communication is using it to aid and support rather than using it to detract. 00:11:33.035 --> 00:11:35.495 Matt Abrahams: So the take home message there is if it's 00:11:35.495 --> 00:11:37.790 significant and important reach out. 00:11:38.030 --> 00:11:41.420 I like your notion of diversify your channels of communication. 00:11:41.750 --> 00:11:44.090 I think there's a lot of pressure to be efficient and 00:11:44.090 --> 00:11:46.370 that efficiency gets in the way. 00:11:46.819 --> 00:11:48.740 Your tone is your trademark. 00:11:48.860 --> 00:11:51.770 I think that's a very powerful statement that you make. 00:11:52.069 --> 00:11:52.970 And I agree. 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:56.150 Many of us though, are unaware of the tone of our messages. 00:11:56.150 --> 00:11:59.930 We are so fixated on what we're saying and are we saying it appropriately? 00:11:59.930 --> 00:12:01.370 And did I use the right words? 00:12:01.760 --> 00:12:07.199 How can you audit your tone to be aware of how you're coming across? 00:12:07.605 --> 00:12:09.135 Jefferson Fisher: Well, you can say from the practical side, you 00:12:09.135 --> 00:12:10.814 record it and you listen to it. 00:12:10.905 --> 00:12:12.435 You get comfortable with hearing it. 00:12:12.584 --> 00:12:14.595 Many of us are not used to that. 00:12:14.595 --> 00:12:16.635 And we'll hear our voice for the first time and we'll be like, 00:12:16.635 --> 00:12:17.564 is that how I really sound? 00:12:17.985 --> 00:12:21.525 So you could practically record it, try to improve it as you want. 00:12:21.824 --> 00:12:24.584 You could take coaching, so you have ways you wanna do that. 00:12:24.915 --> 00:12:29.505 I like to apply my tone to or compare it to music. 00:12:29.870 --> 00:12:35.090 So you think about like what band would match your style of communication. 00:12:35.330 --> 00:12:39.650 There are times like if I want you to listen to me and to slow down, and 00:12:39.650 --> 00:12:44.540 if I want to make you uncomfortable, I'm not going to blast AC/DC. 00:12:45.645 --> 00:12:48.165 Or I'm not gonna blast Eminem. 00:12:48.195 --> 00:12:52.185 Like I'm not going to do that if I want you to be comfortable 00:12:52.425 --> 00:12:54.135 and ugh, lower your shoulders. 00:12:54.135 --> 00:12:58.005 What, I'm gonna put on some easy listening, I'm gonna put on some singer 00:12:58.005 --> 00:13:00.945 songwriter James Taylor type stuff. 00:13:01.155 --> 00:13:06.705 And so that's the kind of tone of like, am I giving you a voice? 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:12.600 So it's trying to find what song does your voice give? 00:13:12.690 --> 00:13:16.410 Because if I want you to be calm, I'm gonna talk a little bit calmer. 00:13:16.410 --> 00:13:18.060 That's the tone is your trademark. 00:13:18.060 --> 00:13:21.900 If you're somebody who's brash and angry and mad all the time, 00:13:21.990 --> 00:13:24.240 that's who you're going to become. 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.190 Your tone controls everything. 00:13:26.190 --> 00:13:28.770 And there's plenty of times you know it's not your words, it's your tone. 00:13:29.010 --> 00:13:31.860 Like how many times have you probably heard from your mom or 00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:33.505 somebody go, I don't like your tone. 00:13:34.065 --> 00:13:37.365 It's something within us, or we hear somebody say something, and the words 00:13:37.365 --> 00:13:39.015 might be right, but we go, you know what? 00:13:39.405 --> 00:13:40.485 I don't like the way you said that. 00:13:40.995 --> 00:13:42.885 That's what ends up controlling the day. 00:13:42.885 --> 00:13:44.865 So yeah, tone is absolutely your trademark. 00:13:45.345 --> 00:13:48.135 Matt Abrahams: I really do like that saying and tone, again, I 00:13:48.135 --> 00:13:49.275 think there are two levels here. 00:13:49.275 --> 00:13:52.875 There's finding your authentic natural tone, that's who you are, and that's 00:13:52.875 --> 00:13:55.635 where coaching and recording can help you. 00:13:55.935 --> 00:13:59.445 But you also were talking about using tone strategically to 00:13:59.445 --> 00:14:01.215 help you reinforce your message. 00:14:01.275 --> 00:14:05.235 So if we're having a really serious conversation I need to reflect on, 00:14:05.705 --> 00:14:10.175 what tone do I want to bring to this conversation or have this conversation 00:14:10.175 --> 00:14:14.705 have, and are there ways I can leverage tone to really reinforce what I'm saying? 00:14:14.915 --> 00:14:17.945 And I do think at both levels it's really important. 00:14:18.245 --> 00:14:23.735 Using Tone as a tool is a very creative and strategic way to help you. 00:14:23.735 --> 00:14:24.785 And I appreciate that. 00:14:25.415 --> 00:14:27.935 Congratulations on your new workbook. 00:14:28.055 --> 00:14:31.025 People who know my work know that I'm all about practical, tactical 00:14:31.025 --> 00:14:33.725 advice and guidance, and a workbook's a great way to bring that about. 00:14:34.110 --> 00:14:36.750 In your new workbook, you have lots of assessments. 00:14:36.750 --> 00:14:40.470 Your initial assessment has you asking readers if they struggle 00:14:40.470 --> 00:14:44.790 with stopping myself from protecting other people's feelings. 00:14:45.150 --> 00:14:47.430 Why do you believe we have this instinct? 00:14:47.430 --> 00:14:51.150 And why is this the first self-assessment in your book? 00:14:51.150 --> 00:14:53.430 I could imagine others things could have come first. 00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:57.240 Jefferson Fisher: As a society, we're afraid to disappoint other people. 00:14:57.510 --> 00:14:59.370 We're afraid of their reaction. 00:14:59.370 --> 00:15:00.270 So what do you turn to? 00:15:00.270 --> 00:15:06.840 You turn to people pleasing and you turn to making sure that you're always last. 00:15:07.050 --> 00:15:11.430 And you give and you give, and you, you say, I'm not worth anything 00:15:11.430 --> 00:15:12.960 unless you think I'm worth anything. 00:15:13.020 --> 00:15:18.120 And we tie our identity to how much we serve is how much we 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:20.010 can be okay with ourselves. 00:15:20.310 --> 00:15:22.395 And so that's why I wanted to start with it. 00:15:23.069 --> 00:15:24.720 Is, Hey, let's take a hard look. 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:26.310 Let's have a cold shower for a second. 00:15:26.370 --> 00:15:32.610 Are you so focused and so afraid to disappoint somebody that you'd 00:15:32.610 --> 00:15:37.500 be willing to lower the way you see yourself even just a little bit? 00:15:37.680 --> 00:15:38.790 Is that okay with you? 00:15:39.180 --> 00:15:44.550 And to kind of have that self-reflective moment because if you want to improve 00:15:44.550 --> 00:15:47.939 how you communicate, I'd say skill number one is you have to learn to 00:15:47.939 --> 00:15:49.290 be okay disappointing some people. 00:15:50.069 --> 00:15:53.250 Matt Abrahams: I like that you start with the internal conversation first. 00:15:53.459 --> 00:15:56.069 I think that's a really important place for people to start. 00:15:56.219 --> 00:15:58.650 You know, if you're working on your communication, working on having 00:15:58.650 --> 00:16:01.739 better conversations, start with that conversation you have yourself, 00:16:01.979 --> 00:16:03.719 and look at your motivations. 00:16:03.719 --> 00:16:07.020 Are they truly your motivations or these societal pressures 00:16:07.020 --> 00:16:08.250 that you're conforming to? 00:16:08.579 --> 00:16:11.910 I like that, and I, and I spent some time doing the assessment myself, so thank you. 00:16:12.479 --> 00:16:16.589 In your workbook, you ask readers to write an internal manual. 00:16:17.064 --> 00:16:19.645 Can you share with us what this internal manual is? 00:16:19.645 --> 00:16:23.574 I don't know that I'd want other people having my internal manual, but talk 00:16:23.574 --> 00:16:28.255 to me about what it is and how it can help us identify sort of the rules and 00:16:28.255 --> 00:16:30.355 procedures that we leverage and use. 00:16:30.780 --> 00:16:34.110 Jefferson Fisher: I'd be willing to bet that most people don't really take an 00:16:34.110 --> 00:16:38.130 objective view about how they communicate, how they choose to communicate. 00:16:38.130 --> 00:16:39.990 They invest in a lot of things. 00:16:40.050 --> 00:16:41.880 They know how they make their coffee. 00:16:42.060 --> 00:16:46.740 They know what goes into X, Y, and Z, but they don't know how they communicate. 00:16:46.964 --> 00:16:51.615 So the idea of a manual is to write down what you allow and what you don't allow. 00:16:51.824 --> 00:16:54.735 Because if you don't, otherwise people just have a remote control to you. 00:16:54.975 --> 00:16:58.665 They have a remote control to your emotions, to your fears, and to 00:16:58.665 --> 00:17:02.115 your insecurities, where they always know how to what, push your buttons. 00:17:02.455 --> 00:17:05.444 But a manual says, no, no, hey, if you wanna communicate with me, 00:17:05.534 --> 00:17:07.155 this is how we're going to do it. 00:17:07.395 --> 00:17:12.615 So instead of this idea, like a remote control would say, you can't talk to 00:17:12.615 --> 00:17:17.070 me that way, a manual has this idea of like, hey, look, if you turn to 00:17:17.070 --> 00:17:21.690 page 74, paragraph D, you'll see, yeah, I don't respond to that volume. 00:17:21.900 --> 00:17:23.040 I don't respond to that tone. 00:17:23.190 --> 00:17:24.840 That's below my standard of respect. 00:17:25.110 --> 00:17:30.389 It's this idea of do you have written out, for yourself, how I will be 00:17:30.389 --> 00:17:33.870 communicated, how I'll be talked to and how I'm going to communicate. 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:35.460 Do you have any idea at all? 00:17:35.460 --> 00:17:38.909 And maybe it's okay to like write it out and, yeah, it's hard 'cause life happens 00:17:38.909 --> 00:17:42.450 and maybe you don't follow it all the time and there's exceptions and whatnot, but 00:17:42.450 --> 00:17:47.489 you need to have some kind of rough idea of what you will choose to have allowed, 00:17:47.489 --> 00:17:53.070 be permitted, who has access to you in a way that can communicate that matters. 00:17:53.475 --> 00:17:57.105 Matt Abrahams: I like this idea of reflecting on your communication 00:17:57.105 --> 00:18:00.345 and thinking about what's acceptable and unacceptable. 00:18:00.525 --> 00:18:03.975 I think in my manual, I'd have to have several appendices because 00:18:03.975 --> 00:18:07.155 different contexts require different operating procedures. 00:18:07.155 --> 00:18:10.605 But I do like the idea of self-reflection and using the analogy 00:18:10.605 --> 00:18:11.754 of a manual makes a lot of sense. 00:18:13.290 --> 00:18:16.740 So before we end, I like to ask three questions of everybody I interview. 00:18:16.740 --> 00:18:19.350 One I create just for you, and two are similar for everybody. 00:18:19.350 --> 00:18:20.010 Are you up for that? 00:18:20.129 --> 00:18:20.700 Jefferson Fisher: Yeah, let's do it. 00:18:20.850 --> 00:18:21.300 Matt Abrahams: All right. 00:18:21.570 --> 00:18:25.800 So like me, you host a podcast, you write books, you deliver keynote speeches. 00:18:26.100 --> 00:18:30.420 All of this allows us privilege to interacting with lots of amazing people. 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:34.350 What's one lesson you've learned from these different situations, 00:18:34.350 --> 00:18:37.590 your podcast, your writing, your keynoting, that's changed the way you 00:18:37.590 --> 00:18:39.210 communicate something you've learned? 00:18:39.645 --> 00:18:42.885 Jefferson Fisher: We're all still figuring it out, and I find that no matter who 00:18:42.885 --> 00:18:46.785 I'm talking to or where I am, it's easy to think that they got it all figured 00:18:46.785 --> 00:18:50.235 out, and once you really start to scratch beneath the surface, they don't 00:18:50.235 --> 00:18:51.285 really know what they're doing either. 00:18:51.555 --> 00:18:57.435 And so you just have to fail enough to kind of create a pattern of what kind 00:18:57.435 --> 00:18:59.445 of works and that's what you go with. 00:18:59.565 --> 00:19:00.195 That's what I've learned. 00:19:00.625 --> 00:19:01.945 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I think that's right. 00:19:02.005 --> 00:19:04.915 We make this assumption that everybody else has got this figured 00:19:04.915 --> 00:19:08.305 out and we don't, and in fact, we're all figuring it out together. 00:19:08.485 --> 00:19:09.535 I appreciate you sharing. 00:19:09.745 --> 00:19:13.945 Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:19:14.370 --> 00:19:17.790 Jefferson Fisher: I have a friend whom you probably know, Chris Voss. 00:19:18.060 --> 00:19:21.360 And the reason I admire him is because we did a thing on stage 00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:24.629 once and somebody said afterwards, y'all are kind of like fire and ice. 00:19:24.810 --> 00:19:26.940 Like I'm the more softer side. 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:30.780 Chris is not, you know, he, he is, let's get the deal done and 00:19:30.899 --> 00:19:33.300 negotiation and that balances me. 00:19:33.520 --> 00:19:37.350 And so I always appreciate that he'll say something, I go, yeah, 00:19:37.439 --> 00:19:39.000 I think that makes a lot of sense. 00:19:39.270 --> 00:19:42.179 But in terms of kinda always walking away with something practical, 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:45.534 that is something that challenges me, I'd probably say Chris. 00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:47.700 Matt Abrahams: Chris is a great guy. 00:19:47.790 --> 00:19:52.650 We've had him on the show and both of you provide really practical, tactical 00:19:52.710 --> 00:19:56.700 advice and ways of getting into and out of communicative situations 00:19:56.700 --> 00:19:58.170 that I appreciate, so thank you. 00:19:58.470 --> 00:19:59.430 Final question. 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:04.860 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:06.960 Jefferson Fisher: One, regulation. 00:20:07.230 --> 00:20:10.110 You have to be able to say things with control, and you do that not 00:20:10.110 --> 00:20:12.870 by controlling the other person, you do that by controlling yourself. 00:20:13.260 --> 00:20:19.140 Two would be discernment, being able to know what is true and to 00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:22.740 speak what is true, to be assertive, to say things with confidence. 00:20:23.040 --> 00:20:27.180 And number three would be setting direction. 00:20:27.689 --> 00:20:32.820 Having a, a goal, setting your intention of the destination and to create 00:20:32.820 --> 00:20:34.469 connection with the other person. 00:20:34.620 --> 00:20:38.429 So when you're able to say it with control, say it with confidence and say 00:20:38.429 --> 00:20:42.899 it to connect, I think that's a, a pretty good recipe for a good conversation. 00:20:43.420 --> 00:20:44.170 Matt Abrahams: I agree. 00:20:44.380 --> 00:20:48.340 Regulation, discernment, direction, absolutely key ingredients. 00:20:48.370 --> 00:20:52.390 All predicated on what we've talked a lot about, which is self-reflection, 00:20:52.420 --> 00:20:55.450 understanding yourself, being able to determine where you're coming 00:20:55.450 --> 00:20:58.390 from before you try to engage others. 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:01.600 Jefferson, I knew this would be a really great conversation. 00:21:01.600 --> 00:21:04.060 I knew we'd have an opportunity to really engage in ideas. 00:21:04.060 --> 00:21:06.640 I appreciate your input, your insights. 00:21:07.030 --> 00:21:09.790 Thank you for the time and congratulations on the new workbook. 00:21:10.090 --> 00:21:10.750 Jefferson Fisher: Thank you so much. 00:21:10.750 --> 00:21:11.470 Thanks for having me. 00:21:11.620 --> 00:21:12.040 It was great. 00:21:14.280 --> 00:21:16.140 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:21:16.140 --> 00:21:18.390 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:22.110 To learn more about communication and negotiation, please listen 00:21:22.110 --> 00:21:25.320 to episode 228 with Chris Voss. 00:21:25.530 --> 00:21:30.030 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:21:30.389 --> 00:21:31.860 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:34.080 With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:21:34.320 --> 00:21:37.500 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:21:37.649 --> 00:21:39.720 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:42.420 Also follow us on LinkedIn and TikTok. 00:21:42.840 --> 00:21:46.920 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:48.960 Learning content, and our newsletter. 00:21:49.320 --> 00:21:52.389 Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning community 00:21:52.389 --> 00:21:53.379 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:21:55.294 --> 00:21:59.074 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI 00:21:59.074 --> 00:22:01.204 tool, and book club opportunities. 00:22:01.384 --> 00:22:05.974 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast 00:22:06.184 --> 00:22:07.904 Talk Smart Learning community.