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In this episode, Jess and Scott sit down with their good friend Josh to discuss the changes he's made in his parenting style over the last six years. Josh candidly shares his experience raising his highly sensitive son. He talks about how a more traditional approach to discipline wasn't working and his original skepticism around gentle parenting. This episode is packed with insights for fathers (and parents in general) who might be struggling to find effective ways to discipline without resorting to punitive methods.
Listeners will hear about:
* Josh's initial resistance to "gentle parenting" and his transition into authoritative parenting.
* The challenges of raising a highly sensitive child and learning how to support their emotional development.
* How gentle parenting isn't permissive but focuses on teaching emotional regulation and healthy boundaries.
* The emotional shift Josh experienced when he realized his traditional approaches weren't working, and how his openness to change improved his relationship with his son.
* Practical tips for parents who feel unsure about how to manage big emotions and meltdowns.
In the episode, Josh mentions a podcast episode that changed his parenting journey. Listen to Jess on the Gent's Talk podcast here [https://podcasts.apple.com/sa/podcast/your-past-experience-will-shape-your-parenting-approach/id1660149891?i=1000651810269].
Josh also mentions he owns his own landscaping business. You can find his info here [https://www.instagram.com/btnlandscapedesign?igsh=MXd5eHE2ZzZzbGd2NA%3D%3D].
Get 10% OFF parenting courses and kids' printable activities at Nurtured First [https://nurturedfirst.com/courses/] using the code ROBOTUNICORN.
We'd love to hear from you! Have questions you want us to answer on Robot Unicorn? Send us an email: podcast@robotunicorn.net.
Learn more about the Solving Bedtime Battles course here [https://nurturedfirst.com/courses/solving-bedtime-battles/].
Credits:
Editing by The Pod Cabin [https://thepodcabin.com/]
Artwork by Wallflower Studio [https://www.wallflowerstudio.co/]
Production by Nurtured First [https://nurturedfirst.com/]
Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn.
We are so glad that you are here.
So Josh is our friend.
He's here on the podcast with us today.
Hello.
And
Josh is our friend, we've been friends for how many years?
Three?
Probably two or three.
Somewhere in there.
Three.
Our kids went to school together.
Josh has three boys
His wife Shannon is a dear friend of mine as well in Scots.
So we're all good friends together.
Hi Shannon.
I know you're listening.
So my name is Josh my name is Josh Goleman.
I have a
Small Landscape Construction and Design Company based out of the Niagara in Southern Ontario, Canada.
I have three boys
a beautiful wonderful wife Shannon.
We live in the Niagara region as well.
Born and raised, we've grew up here.
I haven't left.
Shannon went north of Toronto for school, but then came back and And we wanted to have you on the podcast for lots of reasons.
First
Josh listens to the podcast and every week I look forward to my Monday text I get from Josh with like a rating.
A rating of the podcast episodes.
Only only a couple two out of ten.
Only a couple yeah only a couple.
Exactly.
So it's actually been nice though.
Like you're one of the good friends who's like, hey, like I liked this about the episode or We've actually made changes.
Yeah, we've made changes based on your feedback, actually.
So I appreciate that.
Yeah
So I and I feel like it's kind of fun because we Scott and I often talk on the podcast about our friends or the way that they contribute to the podcast, the page.
So it's kind of fun to actually take a friend on.
Because I feel like in real life, like our good friends who you're friends with some of them as well, like they're very good supporters of the podcast and actually give us feedback and help shape and
We have a lot of friends that are parents and I feel like so much of that inspires the work that we do.
So it's fun to actually like have you on and be able to show people like we're not.
We're not pretending, you know, we're not suppress pretending to have these friends.
No.
But one of the reasons I wanted to have you on is I think your story of kind of like how we got to this point in parenting, which we'll talk about with this point is
is a lot of people's stories.
And like we've kind of talked about this before, but when you first became a parent, it sounds like from what you've said you were a little bit more skeptical, perhaps
Correct on this style of parenting.
And a lot of people call this gentle parenting.
Scott and I like to call it, you know, effective discipline or research back.
Parenting, but I just call it parenting.
Parenting.
We don't really need to call it gentle.
But that is what a lot of people call it, right?
And we come into parenting and be like, okay, well, I'm not gonna be like those gentle parents.
Like that's kind of
Bullshit, if I can say that.
So maybe let's start there.
Don't even have kids yet.
When you and Shannon were kind of thinking about having family, having kids
what were your thoughts on how am I gonna discipline my kids down the road before you even Just raise your kids in general.
Or raise them, yeah.
Before you even had your own kids.
Looking back, I'd probably say before we had kids I didn't lay out like some sort of groundwork of parenting.
Mm-hmm.
I definitely know what I liked growing up, right?
And Shanna definitely had her background where she's like, oh, I like this growing up, like this, what we did, right?
And same thing with me, right?
I feel like I had a very blessed childhood.
I didn't have any trauma, no bad experiences that like like you look back on like wow, that sucked.
Like I wish I'd never had that as a child.
Yeah.
Nothing bad growing up, right?
Looking back like I'm never gonna do that to my kids.
There was nothing like that, right?
So
I can't say before we had kids I was like, oh, we're gonna do this differently because I don't wanna have to put my kids through what we had.
Right.
Right.
So and I know a lot of kids don't have that.
So I I know that we had a very blessed childhood in that way
Sharon's the same way, so I guess to answer your question simply, no.
We didn't think about it too much.
We had brief discussions, I guess, of the basic things of
Parenting, right?
Like who's gonna do this for that?
Maybe how can we help each other with this, right?
But it wasn't like, oh, when they're two years old, this is how we're never gonna do this or we're gonna do that, right?
Because I don't wanna do this.
You weren't really having those discussions.
I mean did we?
Well I did in my own head because that is working in behavior.
Not really until we had like a toddler, I feel like.
I mean, I feel like we always had discussions of like we're not gonna spank.
Like I feel like that was a big discussion we had because of how you grew up.
Yep.
And there's like certain things that you're like different to Josh, right?
Like growing up in trauma, you're like, I'm not gonna do this, I'm not gonna do this, I'm not gonna do this.
But I don't think we had like deeper discussions about like, you know, how are we gonna respond to big feelings and how are we gonna do that
until it started to happen for us.
Totally.
Right.
And then when it started happening, when our oldest started having tantrums, that's when I had to kind of sit down with you and be like, look, this is how we're gonna respond.
And here's why.
And you, Scott, were very skeptical of it.
It took some convincing for sure.
And they always say that to people because I was just talking to someone this morning about it and she was like, uh, they don't have any kids yet
My husband's so skeptical of all of this and I've tried to explain it's like it's not a one-time conversation that you're like, hey, spanking's maybe not the most effective way to change a tantrum.
It's not like a one-time conversation for you, Scott.
I know it was like many times and
questions and but how does this make sense?
Like we talked about it a lot.
I feel like you would have been very similar, but when we first recorded our parenting little kids course, we were recording it at night when
Our oldest was sleeping.
And she would be recording and I'd cut her off halfway through a video and be like, wait, wait, I don't understand this.
How does this make sense?
And I would be grilling her saying, This doesn't make any sense.
Like how can your child not understand
that there's a negative consequence and you have to punish them so they know that this thing is wrong.
Yeah, we would have debates in the middle of recording.
We'd be recording the course and then I'd be like, okay
I'll add that to the course.
So then I have to go back to the drawing and rewrite the lesson.
Okay, so does this make more sense to a skeptical parent?
And he'd be like, yes, that makes more sense to me.
Okay.
I was so annoyed.
I was so annoyed.
Like just let me record my course.
Yeah, we were very similar.
Very similar, right?
Like when you first have the baby, like
Babies are a lot of work, right?
Newborns are a lot of work, but at the same time, newborns are easy compared to toddlers and six year olds and feelings and emotion and people talking back to you.
Like you almost want to go back to the newborn seat.
Yeah, for sure, for us it was the same thing by the time Owen was maybe two or three, right, and started having those feelings, having those emotions, right?
And like, well, no, I want to do this.
Well, no, you can't do this, Owen, because of that.
Like
And then you lose it, right?
And that's where it starts.
And then we had the same conversations at that point of well, discipline and how do we teach him and stuff like that.
So when you're at that stage, not Tintrop two, but Tintrop two.
So Owen's having his first tantrums, he's starting to like
quote unquote disobey or like not listen to you, what's going through your mind on like how am I gonna respond to this at that point?
Like given that you hadn't really done a lot of reflection or talking about it, like what was your go to response?
For me it was very much kind of the
I guess old school is the wrong way to say it, right?
But it's very much the very vocal discipline, like stop this, you can't do this, what are you doing?
We don't do this, right?
And just expecting him to understand that
Like Scott just said, like as a child, like how do you not know when you do something wrong and we discipline you or say you can't do this, why can't you see what you're doing negatively and how we're trying to
Correct it.
Right.
I told you to stop.
Yeah.
Don't do it.
Don't do it.
Touching the stove.
Yeah.
I don't need to explain more.
Trust me, I'm the adult, right?
Like I know what I'm talking about.
Yeah.
And go from there, right?
So and that's where
I was coming from more, so a little bit more of, I don't know, authoritarian is kind of the wrong word to say.
And discipline first isn't the right way to say it either, I guess.
But I was very much reactive in those
days of like when Owen's losing and it's like or trying to do something wrong and I'm trying to teach him, no Owen, this is you can't do this because of this, right?
We were very much like you both were totally against spanking.
I and even I was as well.
At the time I had no problem with parents who spanked their kids for discipline.
'Cause I saw it as a tool to teach.
Right?
And I'll be honest with that.
Like I so if you did it to your kid to teach them as two, three years old, like I'm not here to judge
You guys are getting through your days you need to and I can support that and I get that, right?
Yeah.
We decided not to.
So it was just trying to figure out other ways to discipline, right?
So you do the timeout thing or you take stuff away, right?
That sort of thing.
But without getting into
Why is he doing it?
So then that started that conversation of well, how can we be better teaching him not to do things as opposed to just being
No, no, no, no.
Mm-hmm.
Right, right.
So you kind of felt like there was a piece of you that's like, I don't want to spank.
Was there like an intentional reason behind that or it just didn't feel like something you wanted to do?
No, i I think it was just more, yeah, it just felt like
There's better ways, I guess.
Full disclosure, like I was spanked as a child growing up and I never took anything negative away from it.
It was to me growing up a tool to learn.
I just looked at it when I looked at Owen, I'm like, why am I gonna spank you for doing something you don't understand?
Right.
You're not gonna
process without and this was me even without having discussions or learning a little bit more about the background behind it or even like the emotional science behind any of the like the negative connotations to it
and what can happen, but why am I gonna teach you, well don't hit your baby brother by hitting you?
Without even really like diving into like how I got to that point and in my head that's where it was, right?
And I just
Like, well we're not gonna spank you because it doesn't make sense to me that they correlate together.
That's kinda where that came from.
That tells me that there was a piece of reflection on it, right?
That you were like, Okay
Sure, maybe I was spanked as a kid and like I'm thinking about it now.
It just doesn't make logical sense for me to do this to my son.
Like there was like a little piece of reflection there on that.
And then there's a piece of like other people are spanking, that's fine, but that's not what I want to do.
But then you were like, you said like maybe more of like a reaction
Diff parenting.
So it's like, I'm gonna put 'em in time out, or I'm gonna take away a toy, or something like that, which I think is so normal.
Like that's a really normal
trajectory for people because it's like, well what other tools do I have?
Like those are the tools.
We talked about that before, right?
On I think on the podcast where parents want their kids often to know that like
You can't do, I don't know, something you're saying don't hit your brother.
So you want them to know that that's not allowed.
So it seems logical to put them into a timeout.
For sure.
Because they at least know there is something negative that happens in that situation.
That's exactly it.
That first in the beginning there were very heated discussions about this because I would be like
Well, he's doing something wrong, but now there's no consequences for what he's doing wrong.
So yes, I don't agree with spanking, but it was a consequence.
You do something wrong, you get spanked.
Simple as that, right?
You do something wrong, you get a timeout.
Whatever the discipline was.
So what happened to the consequence for doing something wrong?
And you're not teaching kids that.
And that's where a lot of my skepticism came from with everything, right?
It was just like, well
I don't want to spank, but I get you need to do something.
And so we even had multiple conversations and I remember very vividly, I don't remember what happened, but I remember the conversation after the fact.
I looked at her and I said
Man, I don't want to spank, but it would probably help.
Right?
Like just in the moment.
I'm like, man, just because then it would teach that you did something wrong.
There's a consequence.
Yep.
Right?
But spanking's not it.
That's not the consequence you want to teach because of everything else.
And I agree with that and I didn't want to spank him, but
Just in the moment as a parent, it's very easy and I get it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For parents who do, because I get it in the moment it's like, you know what, you did something wrong.
This is a consequence.
Yeah.
You need to learn.
Yeah.
I think that makes sense.
I'm so glad that you named that because I think so many parents feel that way, right?
Well this honestly is almost like a deja vu of our conversations that we used to have.
So Yeah, we used to have these same all these things and I'm like, I just remember having these exact same things.
Yeah, and I remember Scott would be so like upset.
He'd be like, well what if they did this
you know?
Yeah.
And you would like think it was like the worst thing a kid could do.
Then what?
And I'd be like, well then we're gonna do this and like teach new skills.
And well what about the consequence?
And like you'd be like
But they need to learn.
And I'd be like, they are learning.
And we would have these like heated, heated discussions.
And it wasn't a one-time conversation.
Like we had these.
Especially during the filming of that.
And we're filming a course on parenting.
Scott's like
But I think that's what makes not that this is an ad for parenting little kids course, but like that's what makes the course so good is that like as we're filming, Scott's like, yeah, but wait.
So then I have to go back and rewrite the lesson.
Like I was pissed off at you.
I was so annoyed with you.
I had to go on a trip to Germany for work.
Yeah.
I remember we had to get it done beforehand so I could edit it while I was on my work trip.
And you were so
Well we were kind of annoyed with each other.
We were so annoyed with each other.
Scott's like, it's not logical enough.
You know, you gotta think about a parent like me, and you weren't even fully on board yet.
Yep
And I was like, yeah, but this is fact.
And you're like, yeah, but it like make it make sense, you know.
So that's so that's where you were.
And so where was Shannon in this time?
Like is she on the same page as you or is she like Josh, like, I don't know, I don't know how I feel about this
No, she was definitely on the opposite end of you do something wrong, you get a consequence, right?
Like that didn't really jive with her either, right?
Like no spanking was off the table, like that wasn't happening, right?
Even timeout.
We did that a couple of times, right, 'cause we weren't spanking, so we needed some sort of consequence, right?
So you do something wrong, okay, you're not listening now, okay.
Let's go take a timeout.
Sit here.
I think you guys talk about our recent podcast time or one of the earlier ones you guys talked about timeouts and stuff, right?
And it's just like
Well, how are you like that doesn't help your child either?
You just go, you did something wrong.
Can you go sit over here by yourself and figure it out on your own and then I'll come back and check on you?
Yeah, and reflect on it when you don't have the ability to reflect on it.
100%.
In the moment, as a parent, that's not what you're thinking.
No, absolutely.
How do I teach you?
not to do it, right?
So we tried the timeout thing and even that didn't really sit with her because I think even without knowing what you're saying of like, well the child can't process it, so it's not helping them
That's where she was leaning towards.
It was something's missing here.
Like this isn't working.
And then obviously the kids weren't dealing with it properly.
They're not processing what happened or their emotions.
And it's just very quickly like, okay, I'm done.
I'm sorry.
And then they go back and do what they want.
And then you have the same behavior happen and you're like, wait, what the heck?
I just sent you to timeout for this thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She was definitely more on that aspect where she understood that where I was coming from, like
You can't just have no consequence because like how are they gonna learn, right?
Like you need something to teach them that what they're doing is wrong.
And just like, no, don't hit your brother.
Okay.
And go and hit your brother again, right?
Like what's stopping me from doing it other than you just saying it?
So she was on board a little bit with like the timeouts or like taking stuff away.
Like some sort of consequence or punishment for what you're doing without being
physically abuse her or anything like that, but without knowing what to do or how to get there.
Right.
Or like something was just missing for her.
And then so that took a couple years too of trying to figure out and dive into that a little bit more.
How do we do this better to dive into the emotions of the child that help them figure out and regulate what they're doing, how they got there, how they can move past it.
Yeah
So I would say a lot of the parents who listen to this podcast are currently in that season where you guys were and what Scott and I were talking about where it's like one parent is like
I'm on board.
You know, I wanna start teaching them about emotional regulation and I wanna co-regulate with them and I don't wanna send them to timeout and the other parents like you were, right?
And like
But hey, there needs to be consequences.
This is not cool.
And not everyone has a degree in developmental psychology.
So Yeah, exactly.
And so in those years that you guys were kind of in that like back and forth
how were you shifting your mindset, if at all, or how were those conflicting conversations going?
Like was there anything that helped make change?
Was there anything that didn't help?
Just because like the number one question I did I get asked on Nurtured First like multiple times every single day is
how do I get my partner to shift his parenting style?
And it's usually referring to the male partner.
And like I feel like you're an example of someone who yeah, you still have questions and we'll get to that
at the end, but like of someone who went from that and like slowly kind of shifted to seeing things in a different way.
So how did that journey kind of start or happen for you?
You're gonna make me cry.
I'm tearing up just listening to you talk about that.
Which is ridiculous.
I was not expecting that.
For me, I can't say that there was well actually very recently there was a moment that hit home, but it was been a couple years of changing perspective before that.
'Cause a hit home moment was only in February or March or something, right, of this year, right?
And oh and five and a half at that point, right?
Like so but up until then I've been changing
kind of my viewpoint on it a little bit, right?
And it's just funny listening to you guys talk about when you built your first course and stuff like that, right?
Like so Shannon
I don't remember what course it was, but there was a couple of years ago where she bought one of your courses to help with something along these lines.
I don't know whether it was dealing with sense of kids or like trying to figure out discipline or something along those lines like
I will be completely transparent.
I don't know all the courses you guys offer.
I'm not like a big nurtured first like follower.
Like I know everything you guys are should like I
I love you guys.
I fully appreciate and support everything you're doing.
Absolutely.
But that's just that's not me, right?
I'm not diving into nurture first and everything that you guys offer, right?
But that's all more my personality, right?
Like going back to like I don't have very great long term memory for that.
But anyway, so Shannon got one of your courses and she said, Hey, I wanna do this and she's explaining it to me and I'm like
Okay, I guess.
Like I can see where you're coming from.
I don't really fully agree with that mentality of it, right?
Like it
I think I'm on the page of you guys now.
Like I don't like the term gentle parenting.
Yeah.
But that's kind of where I took it, right?
When she brought it forward, like this kind of like gentle parenting style course of like how do we lean into kids' emotions, stuff like that.
I'm like, okay
Sure.
She's like, oh, and it's X amount.
I'm like, okay.
Can just go to the library and get one for free, like or look online.
Like like just full transparency, right?
At the time, like as a skeptic husband, right?
I'm like
And this is before we are friends.
A hundred percent, right?
Because I I couldn't see the value in it, right?
Because from my own personal view of like, okay, like gentle parenting, like Jen will tell you too.
I've
been known to say like the hippie dippy emotional way of teaching kids, right?
Like it's just I couldn't process it, right?
So anyways
Over the years I've become more accustomed to it and more bought into it and I agree with it more, but I have to say it's a big part of because of our own kids and who they are.
our oldest is definitely a very hypersensitive child.
I also don't like that term because sensitive children I find have a very negative connotation when you say, oh, he's a sensitive child.
It's very old school way of thinking like, oh like
He's a mama's boy or he's just some like he cries, he can't handle he's not a man, like an anything like that, right?
It's very negative, right?
Whereas that's not it.
Like hypersensitive kids are sensitive to everything
Yep.
Emotions, sounds, like other people's emotions, way people look at them, right?
Like it's just because they feel differently, so differently, right?
And what I was struggling with with Odin growing up is I couldn't relate to him
Him and his emotions and how he was processing and how he was dealing with things.
Even at three and a half, four years old, I'm like, I can't help you
And that's where I was struggling.
And that's why when Shannon took your course, that's really led into it more where she's like, we gotta do more research.
Like how do we figure out how to do better?
Because she was not like racked with anxiety, but she was feeling it where like
Something's missing and we're not able to help him, right?
And he's lashing out or doing this, but we're not teaching him properly.
Like the little consequences that we were doing with timeouts or taking things away or like okay, sit here till you're done your supper, like whatever, have two more bites because
You haven't eaten enough, right?
Like that sort of thing.
They weren't really working and it was just it we could see that it wasn't helping him.
Very bottling up emotions, very bottling up everything that was going on.
So then I was slowly starting to realize that I'm not able to help him.
Like it's not working, right?
Like what's going on?
So when Shannon started pushing into more of the gentle parenting aspects and kind of look a little bit more like how do we dive into more of the emotional aspect of
his growing and how he can process or like teaching him, well, why are you doing that, right?
Or what's leading to this, or we need to do this because of that, like explaining more and talking more and stuff like that.
It started to work.
Right.
Like I was able to see when she would deal with him in a situation worked better than when I would deal with him in a situation.
Night and day difference, right?
Like whereas
When something was wrong, I knew something was wrong.
I could see it on his face.
He it's not even like he did something wrong.
If something upset him or I said something wrong or he couldn't do this, you just see it on his face and he would just clamp up.
I'm like, oh and what's wrong?
He's like nothing
I said, Owen, what's going on, buddy?
Like you can talk to me.
Nope, nothing.
I said, are you sure?
Nope.
Nothing.
Three hours later, Shannon's home or whatever, and then he just lets loose
Because Shannon was his emotional outlet, right?
And that and I understood that.
But then they were able to work through it and figure it out together, whereas he wanted nothing to do with telling me about it, because he was worried about how I was gonna react.
or how I was gonna deal with it with him or talk to him about it, right?
Like and it hurt.
It sucks, right?
Like he so then I'm sitting here like how can I help him?
I can't relate to him.
I'm not helping him, right?
Like it sucks as a parent to see your kid struggling and like you know something's wrong.
Yeah.
But he's not talking to me.
I can't like and I'm like, why won't he tell me, right?
Yep.
And it w I can't say it was like a fear thing.
It's not like he was scared to tell me.
He was just I think he was already learning that
Dad doesn't help me properly.
Dad's unable to help me work through it.
He doesn't listen to me, or he's just like, well, I'm more of a very practical based
Problem solver and Shannon gets so frustrated with the two because she's got a problem, she just wants to talk it out and figure it out all the things.
So I'm like, well no, do this.
This is how you fix it.
Does that sound familiar, Jess?
Yeah.
And I'm gonna say I'll say it more often than not
What I say in the moment at first is what ends up working for her.
I completely relate to that.
And it's fine, right?
But it takes her a little bit longer to get there and she's got to process this and work through that and try something else.
And it's fine.
But a lot of times, probably nine out of ten, it comes back to what I said first.
Right?
But that's just
Because I process things differently.
I'm more of a practical thinker, right?
Like, and there's nothing wrong with that.
It's just different, right?
But Owen's more that.
So he can't process one.
I'm like, no, Owen, this is how you fix it.
This is what you gotta do.
Because he can't wrap his head around
Well, how do I get there?
Why do I get there?
How can that help me?
He needs to talk about feel it more.
And that was Shannon for him at three and a half, four years old.
That wasn't me.
So he wouldn't tell me these things.
And it was just like, man, like I couldn't connect.
And I felt like I was failing
So then that's where it leaned more into where my shift started happening.
Like I started being more open to trying it and listening to what Shana was telling me and listening, like, hey, we should try this.
Let's try that.
It sucked the first couple times for me like and I could feel it in my body.
It goes against everything.
This feels so wrong.
Like trying to talk to him about this or work like talk to him in a certain way, like use different words.
I'll be honest, sometimes listening to when Jess talks on the podcast about how she talks to your girls, it's just like in my head, I'm like, I can't.
Like it hurts me to hear you talk about how you talk to your kids in that way, right?
Like
But that's me, right?
Because that's not how I'm wired.
And that could be how I grew up and stuff too, right?
But that's just I'm like, I can't process talking to my boys that way.
Yeah.
And there's nothing wrong with it, but it's just that's not me
even though I can see the benefit of how it would help.
And that's where my struggle comes from.
But over the next I don't know, between four and five
we lean more into that, pay attention more, and change more research.
Basically I became a student of gentle parenting.
Like I said, I don't like the term gentle parenting because I still hate that term and how it
lets parents off the hook at times, but because of that, like I was leaning more into that, like, because I could see how it was helping Owen.
And then to an extent Liam and Shane when he gets there, right?
But
I could see the difference, it was helping, but then still wasn't really clicking with me, right?
Because just so against it, right?
So skeptical or whatever.
But then and here's gonna be a plug for Jess.
Everybody Jess is a smart one and she knows everything she's talking about.
Everybody should be friends with the therapist.
But last
February or March, whatever it was, Jess was on a podcast.
And I think I wrote it down, I forget what it's called, the gentleman's talk.
Yeah.
Um with smear.
Yes.
Yep.
And again, be in my terrible memory, do I remember what the topic of the conversation was?
No.
Do I remember all the words that you guys talked about?
No
But what I remember is in the moment, bawling my eyes out on the way to the job site, at seven o'clock in the morning, I got a trailer loaded with the mini excavator.
I got my
2500 loaded to the team with all my tools and stuff.
I got a triaxial gravel waiting for me, and I'm bawling my eyes out at 7 a.
m.
in the morning driving to the job site listening to Jess talk to Samir because I felt like I was failing.
that I had failed Owen because of how he is wired, his sensitivity, how he Oh my goodness.
Um
How he works, right?
It's not me.
And I've just up until then I felt like I was failing.
And it hit home.
I realized that.
And it hurt.
It sucked.
And that's what was the final like, okay, enough's enough.
Like something needs to change.
I need to switch.
And ever since then, he's been opening up more to me.
We've been able to have good conversations about his feelings and his emotions.
because I'm listening better to him at what he needs and what he wants.
And there was one time Shannon could always tell after I'd listen to one of your podcast episodes because if something came up she was like, oh, you must listen to Justin Scott, this would be great.
Like she told me It was so funny because there was one time
He was just so angry about something, I don't know what it was, but just had to let it out and he just yelled at me.
Just like I'm a foot away from him and he's in my face and he just screams.
Two years ago, I probably would have yelled back.
I would have been like enough.
You can't do that.
Why are you yelling?
Whatever.
And I just sat there and I looked at him.
I said, Do you feel better?
He said, Yep.
I said, okay, what's up?
I just I just took it, right?
It was just like and I felt better because he felt better and he just looked at me and he's like, Oh, okay.
And then we talked about it and headed out, right?
Like and it's just that shifting, right?
I forget what episode it was, but the body positivity or something, right?
And I was changing our baby Shane's bum.
I don't know.
I was talking to him like, oh Shane, I'm gonna do this now.
Just walking through it.
And Shannon comes to him and she was like
What are you doing?
And I said, Well, Jess says to do this and whatever.
And she's like, Oh wow.
Like it's so like, and not that I'm saying everything that Jess says is a be all end-all of parenting, because Jess would also never say that.
Right.
Yeah, I would not agree with that.
Yeah.
It works.
There's ways to parenting and teaching your kids and diving into their emotions and stuff that actually works.
I've seen it first hand.
And it's crazy to see the shift in my own thinking.
I'm still very skeptical of gentle parenting as a whole.
Yep.
Because sometimes I have a hard time seeing
Like at the beginning we talked about, I don't see a consequence for actions, right?
But I see better now how to get there without giving consequences, right?
Well verbal diarrhea.
That was awesome.
Roll the applause.
Honestly, Josh, I feel like so many people are gonna resonate with what you're saying.
Yeah.
Like so many people.
I think especially raising like you're saying like a highly sensitive kid
Right?
Like you're trying all the the things it doesn't work for a highly sensitive kid because they just have so much going on inside their bodies, like our middle child is similar to Owen.
And it can be so frustrating and I feel like I think maybe I said this on the gen stalk, but like highly sensitive kids get punished the most because they have the most going on inside of their bodies.
They have the most meltdowns, they have the most defiance, the most counter will
And like, I'm sorry it made you feel guilty.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
It it it was nothing like that.
It was just more of a it could have been anybody, right?
It just happened to be you I was listening to.
Yeah.
Right?
Like if I had listened to
Joe and Brittany talk about the same conversation, right?
Who knows?
I may have resonated the same way or hit me, right?
So it does make a difference that we're friends and I know you well and I'm learning
Through you and what you're teaching, yeah.
Better, right?
So that's why it probably did hit home a little bit more at the time, right?
But I feel like I would have gotten there anyways.
And I wonder if like because you're friends, you're like, oh I'm more willing to listen to this because I know Jess, so now I'll listen to this podcast.
Oh hundred percent.
The only reason why I started listening to your podcast is because we're friends and I wanted to support you.
Yeah.
Right.
That's 100% where it started.
Now I don't miss I would never miss it, right?
But like for what I'm working as I've listened to the podcast on the job site, it's very much just kind of background light.
Fluffy, right?
Comical or something like that, right?
So it's not this, but I make sure that so Monday mornings, if I can get to a Monday morning, sometimes it's a little later in the week, right?
But Monday mornings I'm still listening to this.
Yeah.
And I think like what you're describing, I know people are gonna find that so helpful because there's so many dads especially who are in that place who's like, it's not working.
Right.
I was just talking to someone this morning.
It's like
I've been spanking, I've been doing timeouts, I've been doing all these things and my son, like, it's the same thing.
Like he's still having huge meltdowns and now he won't talk to me about it.
Right.
And so for you to be able to be like as a dad
four years into parenting, I'm gonna switch my style and just like slowly switch it and see and it's working.
Like it makes sense that you'd be so passionate to listen to our podcast and you'd be so pat like such a supporter because
You see the change that's happening, right?
And you see the difference between like taking a more authoritarian style where you're like telling your kid stop doing this in understanding development and all of that kind of stuff
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurturture First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent education for years
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
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There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff like tickling that goes too far and even the difference between a secret and a surprise
We made this course at Nurtured First because research shows that body safety education helps kids speak up sooner and we want that for our family, for Scott and I, but also for you.
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the code RobotUnicorn and just full disclosure here we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
Is there like a s
not like one thing.
But like is there like You hate it when I ask you for one thing.
I know, but like I'm thinking about the dad listening who's like, oh shit, this is me.
Like I have a highly sensitive child.
I'm a regular dude.
And like what you said about my scripts, right?
And the one thing I want to say about that is like I'll give a script for how I talk to the girls.
And Scott will even make fun of me on most podcast episodes about how I talk to the girls.
How's your heart today?
Yeah.
Oh that one's on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know people eye roll me, and I'm good at it.
And that's where it comes from where it kind of
briefly touched on it like the hi in my mind like the hippy dippy parenting.
Yeah.
Okay.
But you know Jess, and you know that's actually what she's asking to I know.
And there's nothing wrong with it.
It's just different, right?
But I had a I had a supervisor once and
She was even more hippy-dippy than me, if you can believe it.
And I don't even think I'm not hippy-dippy.
But anyway.
I remember her saying to me like she was talking to someone, and this was all new to me.
I was coming out of behaviorism, which was at that time very much like
ignore a child.
You know, like behaviorism is like where give them a snack if they do something.
Give them a treat if they're doing what what's right.
Ignore them if they're having a tantrum.
Like that's actually how I was trained.
Did that work in behaviorism for a while
until I realized something wasn't sitting right with me either.
Like I'm like, yeah, okay, there's research behind ignoring a child's tantrum and eventually they stop like, this doesn't feel right to me.
I'd have kids like attacking me and I would just sit there like just
fully ignoring them.
And it wasn't sitting right.
And so I switched my job and then I had a supervisor who felt super hippy dippy to me at the time, right?
Because
This episode's gonna be called the Hippie Hippie Podcast.
Exactly.
She was completely opposite to everything I learned in behaviorism.
And she would say these scripts with the clients that she was supporting, right?
And she would always say, Jess, when you say a script, use it within your own personality.
This is my personality.
This is how I say it.
You can say the same thing, but within your personality.
She would always be like, it's not about the words that you say.
It's about your posture.
It's about the way that you're sitting with your child.
And it's about
your intention behind the words.
So that's why I don't think there's like one script that you always have to say to your child when they're struggling, right?
Like there's a difference between like, you're okay, you're fine.
And oh you're okay.
You're fine.
I'm here.
Let's talk about it.
Right?
It's the same words.
Yep.
So I don't know.
I just want to say that to parents who listen, like I could never talk like you, Jess.
Like, that's good.
Like you're not me.
You're not me.
You're not me, right?
Like you're not
Scott does not Scott does not talk like me to the kids.
No.
And he uses his personality, which is a little bit different, maybe more funny, like
maybe a little bit more like blunt and that's okay.
So I don't know.
I just want to say that 'cause I think Yeah, I think you raise a good point.
The verbiage is basically the same.
Like when I hear you kind of give your examples of what you're saying to the girls and how you're talking, the verbiage I'm using is the same.
I'm just definitely using it in a different tone and manner and portraying it differently, right?
So And as you should, right?
'Cause it's you.
And it will feel awkward.
And
You know, even if uh you're trying to be like this quote unquote gentle parent for the first time, it's gonna feel so awkward because you've never said these things before.
And for most like dads
They've never heard anyone say this to them before, right?
For sure.
Yep.
Like you've probably never had someone be like, it's okay to cry, like just let it out.
It's fine.
Like
What?
Like no, wait.
Men aren't supposed to cry.
Yeah.
Right at times, but
So of course it's gonna go against how you're feeling.
Like I'm telling my son it's okay to cry.
Wait, hold on, like boys don't cry.
This isn't right.
Did you hear me yesterday?
No what?
As you were leaving for your dinner?
No, what
I said to her middle daughter when she was crying, I was like, Oh, just let out your tears of futility.
Yeah, I did hear that.
Yeah.
You're kind of joking that I'm not sure.
Yeah, I was joking that a little bit, but I wasn't.
And she did let out her tears.
And that's an important thing.
It's a win-win.
He's teasing me and helping her.
So that was great.
Josh.
So now you're at this point, this turning point, you listen to me on that podcast, and I can link the podcast if anyone wants to listen.
Because it was a it was a really good podcast.
you're like, shoot, like I feel like I gotta lean in towards like helping him with his emotions and stuff like that.
As you've been doing it
What have you been finding that's like the most helpful thing?
Like is there one thing that you're like, this has really helped me?
This is what I was trying to get at before before you interrupted me.
It's a good question
I have a hard time answering that because for me it feels like it's just been a very long process, right?
Like where I'm trying it
one day and then the next day I almost throw it out the window, right?
'Cause I'm in the moment forgetting what I'm trying to do differently, right?
So you don't have a one thing.
No, it's it's I wish I did
Right, that I can be like, oh, this is what I changed and this is how I fixed my process and my mindset.
But the thing that was the biggest light bulb moment for me was when
Jess explained, actually close to my childhood home.
We were driving right next past it.
And I was asking her about like what what consequence can we give our oldest for these?
Because
She can't have these tantrums constantly.
They're disruptive.
She's like throwing things.
She's doing all these things.
And when you explained that it was developmentally normal.
It's like a child's brain.
For their brain, this is actually what makes sense.
And like once I started to understand, I guess, her better, the child better.
Yeah.
That started the change.
for everything else for me.
Once I understood the fact that like her brain literally has not developed the ability to restrain or manage these emotions like we we can now.
Fair.
Yeah, I I guess that kinda would lean in more to where it started it for me as well, was realizing that what we're doing to help teach him
they can't process.
Yeah.
Right.
Like for like the timeouts for example, right?
Like why are we putting them over here to punish them for what they did and then just have 'em sit there?
Yeah.
They can't process what they did was wrong
why what they did was wrong and the consequences of what they did, right?
Like why exactly is it wrong?
Like how can it hurt somebody?
How can it hurt this?
Or why is it right?
Stuff like that.
So that's probably where it started for me as well.
And then probably my light bulb moment was more just realizing that they're very different from me, right, in terms of emotions.
So my children not talking to me about their problems is a problem.
Like not being able to help them emotionally.
Like I can help them physically and do whatever they like teach them and all this other stuff and that's great.
That's only half of it
And I can see that, especially with Owen, who is more highly sensitive and feels emotion so much more in other people and the way you look at him or just tone.
And the problem being, I have a very sarcastic nature.
Very much so.
I have a hard time making new friends because I come off as a bit of a jerk at times.
Just because I can be very sarcastic.
And that bleeds into our family life too, right?
Like I like you the two of you here on this podcast, I tease Shannon a lot
I don't get it as much as I receive it, but sometimes I have a hard time turning that off a little bit.
So when I talk to the boys a little bit, I can be a little bit teasing and sarcastic as well, because that's just who I am, right?
Rolls off Liam's back, he doesn't care, but Owen because he feels emotions and tones, he can pick it up so much more right away.
He's like Dad what's wrong, did I do something
wrong because he can't process that I'm actually just teasing and it's a joke, right?
So and I've had to fix that a little bit, right?
So seeing that because he's so different, because he's so wired differently and I can't help him, that's where to me it was more of a light bulb like
How can I help?
He's not able to talk to me in the way that he needs to, or he's not able to come to me for anything.
So what am I doing here?
Right?
Like I'm not parenting.
I'm not his dad at that point.
I'm just another guy who lives in the house, right?
Like
just a roommate at that point, right?
Like so how can I be the dad and father he needs if he's not able to come and talk to me, right?
So I think what you're saying is so profound.
Like I'm thinking about an adult that I know who had a parent who like
So many adults that I know who are highly sensitive and their parents didn't understand them.
Like there's so many that I know.
And what it would have meant for them for at some point their dad to be like
This isn't working, I'm gonna try a different approach with you.
Like I feel like what you're doing is like you have to give yourself so much
credit because you do what you can with the information that you know, right?
And the information you knew is like timeouts and take things away and we gotta shape this behavior and I've got to be in charge.
I'm the parent.
Then as you learn new information, you're like, wait, there's a different approach and I can try it with him.
You can still be in charge, but you're still in charge.
Of course, like you're still in charge, you're still leading and you're still the one teaching him, but you're just using a different approach that like works for him.
And for you, I think as time goes on, like this is all fairly new.
Like you're still kind of trying to figure this out with him
you will feel more connected with him and you'll feel like we have like you're deepening that bond like you were saying.
You're like I felt like I was disconnected and I didn't understand my son, right?
But now you're like leaning towards I wanna understand you.
Like let me help you.
Like let's partner together.
And as you move into like the teen years, like that's gonna go so far with him because when you're shaping that now, right?
And then he's a teen and he's
feeling emotional about something, he's gonna be like, Oh, I can talk to dad about it.
You know, like you're teaching him that right now and I just think that's so cool.
So anyway, I have a lot of respect for people who are like, It's okay, like I can change what I was doing.
It's not working anymore.
Because I think a lot of people are like, I have to commit to the style that I've been doing and I don't want to change what I'm doing.
Because this is like I don't want to change, right?
And a lot of people are really committed and like hold their beliefs really close
And it's hard to make a change and it's vulnerable to make a change.
So anyway, I really appreciate that.
For sure.
I I really liked I don't know what it was, but you guys talked about it and then the term.
Reparenting.
I love that.
Because that's how I feel.
I've only been a parent now for six years and it's not like I have years and decades of experience as a parent that I'm rechanging everything I've done.
Right.
But even just like you talked about your experiences growing up and yourself as a kid.
Even though like I talked about at the beginning, like my childhood was fine.
I had a blessed childhood, right?
There was no issues, but there was still just some things that I had to change as my own
As being a parent with my own kids because my kids are so much different too, right?
Like yeah.
So You're parenting the children you have in front of you, right?
And I think we can talk about that too.
Like I've had this conversation with my own parents.
Like I had a great childhood too and my parents are incredible.
And there's things that I'll do different because I have different information.
And our parents didn't have this information, right?
Like I remember my parents had a book about discipline.
which tells me they wanted to discipline me in a way that was gonna be helpful.
And if you read the book, the book talks about spanking and it talks about timeouts and it talks about the parents being the boss of the home and it talks about like children needing to have healthy fear for their parents.
So like they were trying to learn and that's the material they had to learn from.
So I think there can be so much compassion and we're trying to learn and now we have new material.
And just think when we're older and our our kids are potentially having kids, like the field of developmental psychology will have progressed since then and we may learn even more things that will be even more beneficial.
I I feel like I'm not gonna feel offended if
Our girls are like, Yeah, we're not gonna do all the things that twenty five years from now, they're gonna look at you and be like, You guys were way off your rocker.
Oh, I'm sure.
Like I already know.
And when that happens, inevitably, and they're like, we're gonna do this different, I'll be like, okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Potentially you will be more offended than I will.
Yeah.
I feel like I'm already I'm pre-working on it.
Like I know we're all gonna need therapy.
Our kids are gonna need therapy.
It's a matter of what they're gonna need it about.
So, you know, that's gonna happen and that's okay too.
Yeah
But we're gonna try our very, very, very best to protect them as much as we can.
So they need as little, you know, therapy as possible.
But
To go back to our conversation, like I think that is so key and I hope that a parent listening will have that grace for themselves too, to be like, okay.
I've been doing it one way and I did the best with what I know and now I'm gonna shift and maybe try something different and just see how it works.
Like you don't have to change everything about your parenting right away either
And I know with Scott, when I explained child development to you, it was such a light bulb moment.
Like I remember that moment because you were like, Jess, she's probably sixteen, seventeen months old, right?
She's having her first tantrum, she's hitting, she's throwing, and I'm
already in there I know how I'm gonna respond because I'm already in this field, right?
And you're like, wait, like you're letting her get away with this.
Like kids need to learn.
Like remember you saying that.
Like kids need to learn Jess, they need to learn it's not okay to hit.
And like
And she will.
She will learn it.
I promise you.
But her brain does not have the ability to regulate her emotions on her own.
It's not developed yet.
So that's unrealistic.
And I remember I like would say that to you
your expectation of her to stop crying is unrealistic.
So she will fail you every single time.
And you're gonna get more mad every single time because you don't have a realistic expectation of her
and like her ability to control her impulses when she's upset, she can't.
Like it's not developed.
So when you say you can't throw toys when you're mad
And she continues to throw a toy because she's so overtired.
She hasn't had lunch yet.
Like sh like nothing is working in her favor and she still throws that toy.
It's unrealistic of you to think that she wouldn't.
Like her impulses are the only thing that's driving her.
She doesn't have the ability to think logically.
And like when I said that to you, I remember you being like
Oh shit, like my expectations of my daughter are not appropriate.
And I remember you literally called your dad and you're like, Dad, did you know this on the toddlers?
Yeah.
Like I remember you were like telling everyone you knew because you're like
But I remember you being like, I grew up my whole life hearing like that kid's bad, that kid's bad, this person needs a spanking.
And then when you realize, whoa, these kids aren't all bad.
These two year olds are not bad.
They just have an immature brain that's not developed yet.
And it doesn't start to develop till the ages of like four to seven.
It doesn't get to that point where it's like
able to start controlling their impulses, right?
Like that starts to develop over time.
We start to see it between four to seven.
We start to do it.
It's developing from
Yeah, it's always developing.
And then when I explained to you, like the way that a child's brain develops and learns how to control their own impulses is through repeated exposures to your calm and you acting in the way that you want them to eventually act.
So if you hit them by spanking when they're upset, you are teaching them this is what you do when you're upset.
Like that is how your child learns.
If you teach if you send them away to be alone every single time that they're upset, they learn when I'm upset, I have to go be alone and like internalize this feeling and not talk about it.
And then we might see more behaviors because the emotions are never coming out, right
So then I I remember seeing that shift in you.
You're like, I'll sit with you and I'll let you have the tantrum.
I'll let you yell and then be like, do you feel better?
Yes.
Okay, great.
Now you've learned how to be calm during a tantrum because you've noticed that I'm calm when you're upset, you know?
And now we see it, especially in our two older girls.
Our youngest is in the stage, right?
Yeah.
But n honestly we find it kinda cute now.
Now we get it.
Because we understand it.
We're like, this is kinda cute.
Fair.
Yeah.
She throws something or is angry and like this morning she our youngest was very upset.
And then we were like, you know what, she hasn't had breakfast yet.
We should probably feed her.
And then all of a sudden she was happy and singing at the table and Yeah.
You realize like the our youngest is like being quote unquote defiant this morning.
She's two and a half
Right, she wasn't listening to me, she was throwing things, it's gotten her like, what the heck's going on?
All of a sudden, she hasn't had breakfast yet.
Yeah.
You know, it's eight thirty in the morning.
She's probably starving.
I made her a jam sandwich, sat her down, she ate the sandwich perfectly fine.
Whole new kid.
Yeah.
Like did she need Started singing.
Like does she need a spank for being defiant?
No, she needed us to get curious like what's going on.
You're hungry.
You know I feel like we should talk about
The fact that we're talking about spanking so much is just because we've been you've been posting about that on social media.
I feel like a lot of countries, like i in North America, it seems to be a more common thing than a lot of other parts of the world.
People say that
That's not something that's even allowed.
It's illegal in a lot of countries, but and I think also we are all from small towns.
Yeah.
And a lot of people in our circles, like that is a method that's used, right?
And so fair
And lately that has been something that's just keeps getting brought to my attention.
So it's real on top of the mind for me right now, which is why I keep bringing up spanking.
Yeah, so that's what helped you.
And I just think it's good to hear from dads especially who are like, I changed my opinion on things and this is where I am now.
So Josh, as we wrap up, there's still a few things you're skeptical about.
Oh, I'm skeptical about everything still.
That's good.
No, I'm not really.
But it's I guess my biggest skepticism is still the term gentle parenting because in my mind it's so much bigger than what people actually think.
Yeah.
Right.
And I've done a little bit of my own research too, like really quick.
I am not versed in anything.
I don't even know if I'm looking at the right places.
Anything like that, right?
But from what I'm seeing, right?
Like it's very more
It's broader, right?
But people use gentle parenting as a term to justify, I guess, their parenting methods that may not actually be gentle parenting, but it's more like
Just do what you want.
Avoiding parenting.
Permissive parenting.
Right.
Stuff like that.
Like where it's they want to be more friends and not actually teach them or like
the kids are just kinda there or th maybe they had kids because it was a social construct at the time.
They got married, been around for a couple of years, kids have kids, right?
It doesn't the kids don't fit in their lives, they still live their life
They were before and the kids are an afterthought, right?
Like it's not a priority to them.
But then they look at it as well, it's gentle parenting these days.
We can't discipline our kids.
We can't do this with our kids.
We have to allow them to do this.
We have to allow them to do this
without actually diving into what gentle parenting is.
You can still discipline your kids.
You can still teach your kids respect towards other people and other kids.
You can teach them what's right and wrong.
And you can have all that without having to spank them, without having to give them timeouts, without having to be their best friend.
Like you can still be their parent and teach them all these things.
Right.
But people what I'm seeing and what s uh that's the struggle I have with the term gentle parenting is that people aren't actually gentle parenting or looking into what it is and they just use it as an excuse for
a lack of parenting.
Yes.
And I think it's so important to differentiate.
That's why Scott and I are getting away from saying gentle parenting.
Well we use it basically because people understand on social media.
Exactly.
Otherwise it's and and that's where people
Take from it, right?
Because in they can understand that, right?
Like they understand the difference between gentle parenting and what they may have grown up with.
Absolutely.
Right.
And that's where
Fair enough.
If we were to use the actual term, like I would say authoritative parenting is what we would the term we would use.
That's like the research back term, right?
That's not a very marketable term.
100%.
Right?
So even just for having a conversation, like
And and that's where all my initial skepticism always came from in terms of parenting this way and trying to lean into it this way was because of that and what I had seen in other parents around me with kids or seeing other kids and how they're being raised
And I just look at them sideways and I'm like, I don't understand how your kid can be so disrespectful to other kids, other grown ups, their own parents
Tell us who you're talking about.
No, no, no, no, no.
I know M Niagara region's huge.
There's lots of people around.
You run into people and kids everywhere, right?
Yeah.
But do you know what I mean?
Like that and that's where my skepticism came from, right?
So when I had my own kids, I'm looking, I'm like, I don't want to do that because I can see the negative connotations that come with
that quote unquote gentle parenting style where in ten years this kid at school is gonna be a menace to their peers
Yep.
They're teachers, they're not gonna listen, they're gonna be the no respect.
They're gonna be the bullies, they're gonna be like exactly, right?
Like
So for example, we go to the library.
Shannon took the boys to the library the other day and this young boy, Liam's on there's a little tablet computer thing set up with a game in the library and go and do your thing.
So he's sitting there with the headphones on.
This little boy walks up to him, sits in the chair beside him, takes the headphones off Liam's head and said, It's my turn, takes and just like takes over.
And Sharon's like, sorry, no, Liam's having a turn.
When he's done, you can have a turn.
And he's like, Well no, I want it
Sorry, that's not how this works.
You need to wait your turn.
And then he got upset and ran away because a parent in a grown up was telling him no.
Yeah.
Right?
But that's not something he clearly has in his life, right?
And it's just and that's where gentle parenting, hands off, like you can't tell 'em no, you can't discipline 'em, you can't teach like it's
And that's where my skepticism always came from because I looked at that and like that that's you can't raise kids that way, right?
Because in ten years, what is that gonna look like?
So I know.
Yeah.
I think it comes down to like you had a conversation with someone recently too, Scott, and they were like
Well, don't you think you should say no to kids?
And I think there's such a misconception out there and I think like you said, it's
called gentle parenting.
Like people will say, oh, I'm doing gentle parenting.
But if you're never saying no to your kids, you're never setting boundaries with your child, you're acting as their friend, not the leader.
Like that's not the type of parenting we're actually talking about.
Again, we use that term just because social media understands it.
Yeah, social media social media understands.
It's a term that people understand it can correlate with it, right?
But if you're not actually looking at what it is or what you're trying to do, then
If we wanna look at the research and like what I like to say is like we teach a research-backed parenting approach, which is children who do the best, have the best outcomes later in life, the healthiest relationships, like all of that kind of thing.
They have high levels of warmth from their parent, right?
So that's the validation.
That's the getting on their level.
That's like allowing the tears, all of that
And high levels of control, which means boundaries, structure, routine, all of those things are really, really important.
Chores.
Like our children need us.
And
My favorite developmentalist, psychologist, Gordon Neufeld, he always says children need us to be the leader, right?
Like we have to be the leader in the home.
They have to be able to rest and know that they are not the leader
And so we'll have kids who will try and become the leader of the home, right?
The big meltdowns, they're telling you what to do.
Like they need us to be in that leadership position because it's too much responsibility for their immature brains to be the leader of the home.
And I think that's what I want parents to know too, because they'll think like this approach is exclusively validating feelings or exclusively allowing emotions.
And that is a big part of it's really important to do that.
And our children need like boundaries around screens.
They need to know when they take
Headphones from a kid who's already there, it's like no bud, like it's not your turn.
You know, it this person was here first, it's their turn.
We're gonna have to wait
Child has a meltdown, yeah, I'm sorry, I know it sucks.
You really wanted to play.
On the computer, but it's not your turn yet.
Let's sit here and we'll wait our turn together.
Right?
Like it's that kind of structure and boundaries that children need in order to grow into adults who can navigate disappointment, who can
Create boundaries and structure for themselves who can respect others.
So I hope people can take that away from this episode too and know that
Just because you're sh you're shifting from using uh approaches rooted in timeouts or taking things away, it doesn't mean that you're letting go of all structure and boundaries.
Like that is still there.
And it comes with a high level of warmth and respect
towards your child.
Oh yeah, we've we still have lots of rules in our house.
Yeah.
I'm sure the boys tell you w would tell you way too many rules, but they're all based on discussions and conversations and explaining this is what's expected and this is why.
Right.
Our boys are very loud, as most boys are, but they know and they're reminded there's a certain level you have to keep it in the house because when you're six years old standing beside your one and a half year old brother yelling that loud
It's gonna hurt his ears.
It's gonna disrupt him.
It's not fair.
Yeah.
Right?
And so they learn that and they know that, okay, like we're not in trouble for being loud.
We can be loud and have fun, but we have to be respectful and aware of what's going on around us, right?
Exactly.
Yeah
And those are the kind of guidelines to help a kid feel safe, right?
Like if if a child even if they don't like the rule, a child with no boundaries and no rules
is a child who doesn't feel safe, right?
Because then they're just run by their impulses and they're just impulsive all of the time.
Like they need someone to come in and be like, let me guide you, let me show you this is how it's okay to behave.
This is how it's not
But we do that through teaching, not through sending them to figure it out alone because they can't.
They need us.
So I think that's a really good example as well.
You know what we should do.
You rate us every week.
Yes.
We should get people if you're listening.
Do it.
Please send us an email with your rating out of 10 and explain where where your rating comes from.
Sure.
Oh I love it.
I feed off of it.
Thanks, Josh.
Thanks for being on.
I'm glad you're going to be able to do that.
I'm glad we got to be your first, you know, podcast uh interview.
I feel like we'll have you back.
It's the beginning of your broadcasting career.
Totally.
All my voice acting and everything like that too.
All right.
Well, thanks for coming.
Thanks for having me.
Yep.
We appreciate it.
Thanks for making me cry.
Teared up a little bit.
We teared up a couple of times.
As a parent, we cry a lot more than we used to.
That's true.
Are you saying it's okay for men to cry?
100%
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode.
We are
Glad that you are here.
If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and a review.
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