TWI_010_Jose_Gonzales
Wed, Apr 09, 2025 12:14PM • 52:50
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Latino Outdoors, public lands, outdoor recreation, community engagement, environmental literacy, cultural identity, affinity groups, conservation education, travel and exploration, social constructs, nature connection, outdoor experiences, local advocacy, diversity in nature, educational strategies.
SPEAKERS
Voiceover, Jose Gonzales, Anders Reynolds, Bill Hodge, Speaker 1


Voiceover  00:08
The following is a production of wild idea media,


Bill Hodge  00:13
and welcome back to the wild idea podcast, where we are exploring the intersection of human nature and wild nature. Today, we are excited to have a conversation with Jose Gonzalez. Jose is the founder of Latino Outdoors and also co founder of the outdoorist oath Anders. How's it going today? Oh, hi,


Anders Reynolds  00:32
Bill. Yep. So, just so our listeners note, the tax deadline is just around the corner. So I spent my weekend doing my taxes, and yet again, I gave so generously that I can't take the standard deduction. This is a real burden your life. You're such an open heart, like you're just such an open heart. I'm really giving for those that know, but Bill, I've got a question for you, if you could tax one thing that I do to generate revenue, what would it be? Huh? That's


Bill Hodge  01:02
a great question. I think I would tax your ability to take deep moments of sincerity of mine and throw them back at me as sarcasm like a fastball. I think I could pay down our federal deficit. If so, I guess I would call it the sincerity tax, but I'm trying to be open and sincere. And you turn that into sarcasm that you throw back to me sometimes with the line, oh, I'm Bill, look at me. So that's, that's what I would your ability to minimize my sincerity. How about that? That's fair. What would you well, what would you tax about me? That's what I want to know


Anders Reynolds  01:40
I would tax every time you tell me or a podcast guest that you're looking at a Stellars j outside your window,


Bill Hodge  01:46
we get it.


Anders Reynolds  01:50
Why are you these parts? I'm Bill. I'm looking at Blue Jays. I'm Bill because


Bill Hodge  01:55
I'm sincere about my winged friends that live outside my window. So there you go, there you go. Anders and I solution to the federal deficit is to tax those two things. You know, we both to get serious for a moment. We both work on public lands, and have for quite a number of years. And I think I'm right in that we both would like to see the future of public lands is a subject that our political leaders need to like be clear on, I guess, to put it another way, I'd like to see party platforms speak to the value of common spaces and common access to public lands. But right now, those public lands are being used as a pawn, frankly, in the budget process, and I'm curious, what do you think it's going to take for public lands to be front and center in a major national election? Oh,


Anders Reynolds  02:43
that's a good question. That's a good question, but one I think I would turn slightly on its head. So every other year, exit polls show the same thing, that the economy is the number one issue on voters' minds at the same time, you and I know that outdoor recreation on our public lands is a significant economic driver. I don't have the data at hand, but I'm confident that the outdoor recreation industry has surpassed the extractive resource industry in terms of dollars contributed to GDP. Now this administration has made absolutely clear they have a plan for public lands, one wrapped up in all the quote, unquote, energy dominance talk, more logging, more drilling, more dirty oil and gas extraction, and at the end of that plan is an inevitable outcome, the privatization and sell off of our public lands to their cronies. We talked to Nate Schweber about this, about Bernard devoto stopping the same sort of plan in the 1950s but what I'm seeing right now is overwhelming opposition. Opposition, overwhelming opposition to these plans, the response to the civil servant firings, the response to the executive orders on more logging. I know from my job as an advocate that we've had record numbers of people contacting their members of Congress and asking them to do something, anything to stop plans to fire federal workers who are responsible for the continued health of our public lands, but there's no doubt in my mind that public lands literacy is at an all time low. In Congress, we have fewer and fewer federally elected officials who come from public land protection backgrounds, and fewer and fewer state and local electeds who know enough about this to offer cover for designations and other pieces of legislation that would mean additional protection for public lands at the same time, I'm sorry to say it's true that the issue is becoming asymmetrically partisan, using wilderness protection as an. Example, it used to be that Republicans and Democrats each had an interest in protecting their big backyards, but the issue has grown more ideological over time, and now wilderness bills are almost exclusively introduced by Democrats, although I guess I should say I'd be remiss not to mention here the flat side wilderness bill, which was recently introduced by Republican French Hill, which would expand the current wilderness area in the Washington National Forest of Arkansas. So I've been going on for a long time. If you're asking me, how do we get public lands front and center in DC, it's by making them front and center and local elections for water districts, county judges, state representatives, even governors. It's the only way we're going to build a pipeline of future champions. I


Bill Hodge  05:44
like that. I agree with you as much as I'd love to see someday where public lands come up in a presidential debate. I think you're right. The rubber meets the road as we build collaboratives and local communities, it is the influence of the local county commission or the local small town mayor and having those folks be champions of their big backyard is probably, probably, is more important than whether their local Congress person is, is of that mindset. So I look forward to seeing it


Anders Reynolds  06:12
right, and though those mayors and councilmen, they go on to be the congressmen and senators of tomorrow, like, Let's educate them today. Let's show them why they don't need to be scared of advocates like you and me, advocates like the folks listening to the podcast right now, 100% I look forward to watching


Bill Hodge  06:31
your thoughts on that evolve and what that what that becomes in the future, in the meanwhile, let's get to a great guest today. Our guest is Jose Gonzalez. He's a professional educator with training in the fields of education and conservation. He is the founder of Latino Outdoors, co founder of the outdoor south, and also served as a consultant at large with organizations like the avarna group, and within his own consulting he currently serves as the inaugural equity officer of the East Bay Regional Park District. His work focuses on equity and inclusion frameworks and practices in the environmental, outdoor and conservation fields. And he's also an amazing illustrator and science communicator. So please, welcome to the wild idea podcast. Our friend Jose Gonzalez,


Jose Gonzales  07:13
yeah, it's a pleasure to be here, and I'm really excited to have this conversation dig right into it.


Bill Hodge  07:20
Well, yeah, you have to be excited to be celebrating. If I'm right, Latino Outdoors has moved into its second decade, right? So how's that?


Speaker 1  07:29
Well, first, it is exciting in the sense of, you know, part of the origin story of Latino Outdoors is that idea of, where are there others like me and I'm looking right for that space, what is that point of connection, of community? And now what I get, you know, when I have the opportunity to kind of share with all the amazing volunteer leaders that make up the organization, I get to tell them you are now and you have created what I was looking for over 10 years ago. And so how excited it is that what now exists is the very thing that I was looking back then when we created Latino Outdoors, yeah, just


Bill Hodge  08:11
such a an amazing organization. How many chapters? Well, 13 or more now, right? Oh,


Speaker 1  08:17
more than that. We were up there in the triple digits, 30 something, if I recall, and I had my number wrong, but yeah, it's coast to coast across the US, in many different states, and it started in California. But now the exciting thing is that it gets to be in some places that people always ask and wonder, it's like, well, when is it going to be coming to this area or that area? And we've always said it's gonna have those little roots of like, the leadership of the community. Go there. We can't drop it in and then just say, Here you go. And so to see it in places like Massachusetts, right? To see it in places like Montana, to see it in places like Florida, all of that is just, it's fantastic. So


Bill Hodge  09:03
if I can back up to even before the beginning of Latino Outdoors, I'm interested in your journey to that moment when you started the organization. Can you talk about the sort of Where's and how's of like your personal connection to natural spaces and how that led you starting such an impactful organization?


Speaker 1  09:22
I was just having a bit of this conversation with a group of educators and students. We're talking about environmental literacy. And you know, part of it was, on one end, you have what you know, kind of the field of study around it is, and the research, you know, when we have terms and expressions like positive, transformative experiences for youth in the in the outdoors, so all of that is there that can help remind us right then that it isn't just a good idea. It's like, there's research behind it to being able to get kids out in nature and, like, introduce. I want to just introduce, but remind and connect to those moments of WoW, kind of that wonder with nature of the outdoors in the wild. So there's that, having said that, you know, as a kid, I'm not out there saying, Well, I may go find out my positive transformation, you know, moment in nature, you come with the natural curiosity at the same time. So for me, I was born in Mexico, and similar to kind of have kids here in the US that maybe grew up on farms or in rural areas, the outdoors is just outside, like there's an element of you can go out into nature much more, relatively easier and quickly, or maybe that boundary is a little fuzzier. And that's how it was for me in my rural town. You know, arguably my walk to school was a hike. Me going with my grandpa as they went out to tend to the crops. Was also a hike, and we were sleeping outdoors. It just happened to be a tarantu kind of thing. And it wasn't until coming to the US in a suburban environment, right, that the idea of going to the outdoors really kind of developed. It's like, Oh, got it. We have to get in a car to go to the River Park. And it was in sixth grade, a school field trip to see sequoias for the first time. And it was one of those really like contrast moments from you'll say, what are these? And I call it my own little Latin American literature, expression of magical realism. Because, how are these things real? How it was just my mind was both fascinated and wrestling with those. And I think I would argue that in addition to, of course, being more in born, being born in Mexico, this was one of those little moments that just was, those seating moments as like, I want more, and I didn't know I wanted more, but I it stuck with me for a reason. And so from that, having moments like that kept bringing back to this idea of like, not just experiencing the outdoors, but how could that be a thing to work for, work at, to begin to really think of that both as the construct of it, but like, what does it mean to be in community and relating to it? And, like, all of the things that those of us that work in conservation, right? There's, it's a thing. It's so it's why we're here,


Anders Reynolds  12:32
Jose, thanks so much for joining us today. I'm really looking forward to this, something I heard in your answer just now, and a common theme I've picked up a minute of your many of your public appearances, goes something like, it's not just about getting more people outside. It's about changing the narrative of who belongs in outdoor spaces and why. Can you say more about how Latino Outdoors has worked to change that narrative?


Speaker 1  13:00
Yes. So then, you know, we have friends and colleagues in this race, like Juan Martinez, who started with Children in Nature Network right now. Now he's at Aspen and a bunch of other places room at from outer afro. They often share some expression around that the outdoors doesn't care, right, how much you have in your bank account and and so forth. And I agree. I tell people, you're right. The mosquitos certainly don't care, and the trees, you know, same. It's the people. And so I it's the people that kind of affect much more how memorable some of that experience can be. And so I say this because, in terms of Latino Outdoors, we tell people we have these connections to the land and to the landscape, and maybe very different and there's still a fundamental human connection to nature, to the outdoors, to the wild. Because, you know, evolutionary speaking, we've, we've, we've grown up with it. It's an adaptive relationship. But fast forward to thinking of Latino Outdoors. This is what I tell people so there's cultural constructs around it that we can either take for granted or don't think about them, or we don't interrogate them to see how this is normative for me and not normative for somebody else. And then why does that matter? So with Latino Outdoors, we would say, and we still say, right, yes, there of course, are going to be situations where it's going to be camping for the first time for a family, because they didn't grow up camping in this way. But it doesn't mean they may not have memories of relationship with the land, for example, with an immigrant community. And so it's about, less about kind of conversion. And say, let me convert you into the outdoors or the idea of the outdoors, and more about let me invite you. Into it and see what happens as now you're a part of it. How does that change and shift? And so I'll close this by this example. I would often say what we would feel was this idea that you have to leave your cultura at the trailhead. You show up to the trailhead now you're going to start hiking. Now you have to be somebody else to fit in right I have to have my the right Twitter, Joe stromex, for example, or the right pants and the right mannerisms. But now it's being able to say when I go, how do I still carry my cultura in my hiking backpack? What? What does that look like? And it's a relationship. It's actually now co creation. It's yes, there's still trail etiquette. Yes, it's all of that, I think people must understand, but we get not to be co created, be more expansive on the idea of the outdoors here.


Bill Hodge  15:49
Yeah, it's such a great point. Anders and I talked a lot about how they're people who tend to want to think that there's a definition of what the ideal outdoor experience is, and the outdoor experience is like the spectrum that is so incredibly wide we couldn't even begin to define all of those things as stealing Anders line. He talks about the most authentic experience, what is? What your line is always what Anders it's


Anders Reynolds  16:12
experience isn't like, you know, a four day overnight with really expensive gear in like a mountain wilderness, right? It's a day hike. It's a picnic on the edge of a park. It's there's a million different authentic experiences of the outdoors. And it starts to feel really gatekeepy When you tell people like it's gotta, it's gotta be this way before you can really say you've, you've experienced something wild. Yeah. And I would


Speaker 1  16:35
say that that itself is a model that we try to help you put a shift right to say, yeah, there's this idea of maybe, like a triangle, summative type of saying, well, the top peak is what you're describing, right? Anders, which is like, well, it's really got to be this long in this type, and over there. And then at the base are all these other ones. And we say, well, actually that is a spectrum. And what does that look like between nearby nature, right right outside your door, to far away wilderness, to far away wild, and that all of these are engagement points, while also knowing it's okay to not have some of these all the time, I tell people I actually don't want everybody to visit the Arctic Refuge. That's a bad idea for the refuge, but I want you to be connected to it, right? So you're caring and about it, you're aware of it and protected. And there may be other wild experiences that you can have that will still be in that relationship. A


Anders Reynolds  17:35
triangle is a perfect example, because if you tilt that thing over on the different side, there's something new at the top right, something new at the top I


Bill Hodge  17:45
had early in my advocacy work. I was trying to convince this guy. I was tabling at a farmer's market. I was trying to convince him that he needed to go see this place on the Cherokee National Forest that we were trying to protect. And he just stopped me in mid sentence, and he goes, I don't need to go see it. I just need to know that it's there. You know, that's really stuck with me. That's right, like, we're not going to connect people to every outdoor experience, or not everybody's going to go to the middle of the Rangel st Elias wilderness, you know, 11 million acres in Alaska. That's okay. The connections can come through, as I like to say, through the crack in the sidewalk. You know, the flower pushing up to the crack in the side. Like one thing I'm curious about Jose is, if you could talk about why affinity groups like Latino Outdoors are so important, like that, why sharing cultural and life experiences makes for a good recipe and creating the connections, and in this case, the connection to the outdoor experiences we're talking about.


Speaker 1  18:44
It's a great question because I think often it's is easy to misunderstand, right the starting point, like, when you say affinity groups, and even when we first started Latino Outdoors, one of the first comments on on Facebook was like, Why do you need a Latino Outdoors, there's no white outdoors. And I was like, Well, okay, I'm I know where that's coming from, and I'm not gonna come to that conversation, but, but it was a good example of what we take as normative. And then what does that mean, in service of what so for us, which is still true to today, I was just having this conversation with our executive director Luz villa, which we say, like, look to be part of any type of Latino Outdoors experience, on how it in a high event, whatever it might be, it there's, you know, you don't show up and you have to show your Latino card. Like, that's not how it works. This actually is for everybody. So for us, anyone is welcome to these experiences. The invitation and agreement, though, that we're asking for is that it's a focused conversation on the exploration of what is this cultural element of latinidad, which is already pretty wild and messy and. As it is, but you get to be a part of it, knowing there's there are so many other opportunities outside of this, and so the value and power of affinity groups is one really getting to support these spaces that are focused conversations for the inter and intra community building. Because the reality is, there have been, you know, there have been times when people have felt excluded, where they haven't felt that connection, they haven't felt the invitation, they haven't felt the welcome, and so that and so they experienced that disconnection of it's not for me, which is totally okay that people may have personal preferences around I don't want to hike or or can't I tell people totally i So would love to, like give you an opportunity, but it's okay if you as an individual, say, I'm good for me. The issue is, if culturally, structurally, systemically, we've reinforced the idea that this is not for you the NAS, where the value of affinity groups is to really actually explore and dig into that. So there is a difference between an actual personal preference versus structurally. We've set it up to only center and value particular cultural norms and value of one group. And it takes work. But I think for me, the power is in that, because at the end of the day, one of the beautiful things of kind of, quote, unquote, this American experience is that we're saying, let's make it out of everyone. And that means it takes work to do this together. And so that's what I say in the power of affinity groups, is the opportunity to explore and interrogate, really open up that idea, but then also get to celebrate, bring joy into get to explore it, and really get to put the work behind the idea when we say the outdoors is for all


Anders Reynolds  22:04
that's a really clear and compelling answer. I like it. I want to dig into it a little bit more. I I've heard you talk elsewhere about how everyone should get to connect with the benefits of nature and the outdoors, but among those benefits, I've noticed you often center community, and to be totally honest, that one really challenged me at first, because one of the reasons I turned to nature, me personally, is to turn my brain off, to experience a little time away from people, away from community. But like you're saying, I think that also speaks to the ways the community I was born into was already so represented by the conservation world I've I've never had to worry about community. So can you, can you say more about how the values of community and conservation are intertwined?


Speaker 1  22:55
It's a, yeah, you frame it really well. Let me start with an example that has stuck with me. A couple of colleagues and peers down in Arizona and Tucson were sharing that they were doing a focus group, kind of for, like, for Saguaro National Park, and they were even asking a couple community members, especially Latino community members, to, you know, we're going to show you a couple pictures. Just tell us what you think, and whatnot, focus group. And one of the things that stuck out was when they showed the picture of that, and again, no shade to Sierra Club, but it's that classic Sierra Club image of the lone, solitary hiker right just right there on the hill, which many of us connect with. Right to your point, it's like, yeah, I could just go out and be on myself, disconnect from everything, but that, some of the comments from the communists was like, is that person Okay? Why are they alone? Where's their family? And people do ask the question about me family? I know, and I almost want to say, No, I'm not okay. This is why I'm on here. I need, I'm going through different set of benefits. But it's, it's I share that, because it's the both hand, right? It's knowing which, what types of benefits really are needed and land as an individual, right, with those experiences and what benefits are also needed in value, where you're in relationship with others in community out there, and it's not an either or or, my opinion, shouldn't have to be an either or, because the more we can reinforce some of these connections in places like the outdoors, to me, the more nurturing they can be for the spaces where we're not in the outdoors, when we're not in nature, supported environments, because part of the research shows that as humans, we do a really good job of building environments that bring out the worst of us. Us. We think we're being efficient. We think we're creating good spaces to, you know, for productivity, you name it, they're actually not great for us. Nature tends to be one of the best restorative environments that has the right all of the right elements of complexity restoration for that. And I tell people like for me, it's great to have those individually, but also with others, because that power community, whether we know it or not, actually, is necessary for the resiliency we need as individuals, but also for what helps us actually make change, for all the structural, systemic things we want to change. And so it's like, you have to be able to turn to community. It would be concerning when you don't have an aspect or element of community that you can rely on. And at the end of the day, I'll show this, I'll close this example, there are little shifts like, for example, when people say, Well, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta do some self care. And I'm like, I agree. Why is? Why is the focus always so much on self care? And where is the conversation around community care? Where is the conversation around structural care? Right? It's like we got to have all of these. And so I was wary to not only be reductive and kind of like 111, point of the of the space


Anders Reynolds  26:24
bill. That's one of the best answers we've gotten on why we need the wild, which is the whole reason we started this podcast. So I, I think we can just shut it down.


Bill Hodge  26:31
Yeah, we're done. That was it. Look at that. Record time we got there. I love it. I love it. You know, I I asked the question earlier about the the the need for affinity groups, because it's really important to me. I think because so many people don't recognize that some of these when we think about experiences in sort of the larger landscapes, when we talk about wild places, as opposed to the wild that just might be out our window right now, there's an intimidation factor to it, and I think, I think that allows affinity groups, not only to give people a safe space. I always give the example of my time with the Bob Marshall Wilder Foundation. We did a trip every year called Girls and the Bob and literally, you had to be a young woman between like 14 and 18 years old, because they all were going to have at least some common denominator that they knew everybody else on that trip was going to have sort of probably the same anxieties going into that trip, right? And I think, I think that allows the wild to not just be a place where we connect with wild nature, but we connect with other people, or we form a different community, a new community, become part of our mosaic of communities that we're a part of. And I'm curious is that, is that feel right to you? I mean, it's just sort of the way I've thought about because affinity group can mean anything. And, you know, it's Latino, outdoors, it's outdoor afro, it's a trip like girls in the Bob. It's it's those sort of things that I think they they reduce barriers. I don't know if that's the right way to put a bit, in some ways, it reduces barriers, because you're going to feel okay, I'm not alone and be I mean, hell, I was intimidated by my first experience in the backcountry, and I've been day hiking my whole life, and now all of a sudden, I'm doing that first major multi day backpack trip, and it's, you want those barriers reduced? Right? Yes,


Speaker 1  28:17
and you're right. Affinity groups, there's a lot of power in terms of kind of social cultural such as ethnic and racial. And the reason for that is just historical around this country. Having said that, affinity is a commonality, right? So it can be around profession, it can be around other social identities, it could be around experiences. Part of that is because we don't want an individual to constantly be in a state of newness and discomfort around that that's actually not helpful for a lot of things. And so if you can have a foundation of commonality that has that degree of safety, of comfort of, you know, safe space to fail and whatnot, you can always return to that as you are expanding those learning edges and that discomfort. So if the high discomfort is going to be on a brand new experience out in the wilderness, you want to be able to still return to the comfort of the campfire with people that you don't have to over explain something like, oh, they immediately get it and this back and forth between comfort and discomfort. We never want to only stay in comfort, because then we don't grow, but we don't always, especially want to be in the state of danger, because then you're also not learning, you're shutting down those pathways. And again, this goes back to those, you know, early prehistoric campfires, which is like, which is the, this is a good example of that irony. Some of the research. Around fire is that, yes, destructive, intensive, kind of like traumatic fire, bad, we run away from that understandably. You know, firefighters have to train to run to the fire. Most people for us, we instinctively run away from the fire. And yet, there's something calming and comforting around a campfire, like sitting there, losing yourself in there. And it's those ancestral connections to community, sitting around and like this is the space of comfort after I have gone out and try to figure out how we were going to survive, I get to come back here, and that is very nourishing. So affinity provides those core elements around family, but we get to be more expansive with it. Expanding that circle of we is what's necessary for us to be able to make these connections across beyond just our immediate circle of trust.


Anders Reynolds  30:51
You're so wise. That's such a wise answer. I was thinking the whole time how I have like a crass example that really dumbs it down, but I think you've touched on something that's always really bugged me about, like, about groups that take out, like, first time campers on overnight and sort of insist on taking away, like, their cell phone. And to me, I think, well, let's move in baby steps, right? Like, Let's experience nature with the phone. Like, I would, I love taking pictures when I'm in nature, right? And there's a part of that digital campfire that I think is still really important to people and and like you're saying, you know, someone having this experience for the first time and being in total discomfort instead of the right amount of discomfort, the kind that that encourages resiliency, like you were talking about better, I think, is a healthier way to get someone, you know, to to wade into this sort of thing. So, yeah, I great answer.


Bill Hodge  31:47
Yeah. I think about, I think about the that fine line between you put it so well, Jose the you know, Fear leads to people shutting down, but discomfort leads to growth and like, how do we? But we also don't have to always find that line right? Sometimes it literally is laying on the picnic blanket under a tree, on the on the edge of a park, right? And I wanted to kind of pivot to thinking about your bike training. You're an educator. How that training, how you're still sort of a net. You not still, you are still an educator, how that informs how you think about creating these experiences, because Latino Outdoors that that now your what your role now is, what a Director Emeritus, I think you know, still involved, but others are leading the charge now. But how you think about your background and your training as an educator and helping make these whole full rounded experiences for anybody. Because how this could help anybody who's thinking about, Oh, I want to get my family more engaged in, you know, being outside, and not just being outside, but thinking about it. I wonder how what you might share from that perspective as an educator.


Speaker 1  32:55
One is, I think for me, the decision to kind of go into teaching, a core part of it was this, I don't know there's just this idea of public service, and how could I give to others, what kind of education gave to me, and just remembering that experience. So there was an element for me, like, this is a profession that I think can be a part of that um. And then two is then, because at that time I was thinking, you know, families like mine, immigrant kids like, like, who I was growing up, was part of education is really thinking about what kind of experience and expertise individuals already come into a space in relation to maybe the expertise and experience you want to provide. And so there's the old you know you're trying to avoid. The kids are just empty vessels that you got to fill them up with approach. And it's the same with adults. So it's less about you're a kid or an adult, and more you're a learner. And so two elements here are, one is being aware and be wearing of the arrogance of expertise, that there's nothing wrong with being an expert. In fact, it's fantastic. Part of the concern is, if you then, now forget what it was like to be that learner in that space, and how the struggle, right? What's necessary, what helped get to that, and then just presuming, oh, you should get it, like, I got it. Was like, Well, why don't you get it? It was like, well, your your mental model is different. And so how that can show up is, for example, if we're going out, and our approach is just to teach individuals how to identify everything, okay, this is what that is. This is what that is. That's how you Id this thing. That's how you ID that. There's nothing wrong with the. Using and relying that information, but until it's a different approach, if you ask questions first, for example, Hey, what do you notice? What does this remind you of? And so one example was, we were going out to look at birds out in the Pacific Flyway, and I was asking, kind of these families? It's like, well, first of all, look up in the sky. It's a turkey vulture. It's very easy to spot and identify. And rather than me saying, Hey everybody, look, that's a turkey vulture, you can tell it's a turkey vulture because and me asking them, hey, you all see that says, Does that look familiar to any of you like? Can you all tell me anything about it? And that's how I got, like, five different words in Spanish for the bird. And now I could be, Oh, awesome. I got one. So now we all together have six, right, which is very different than saying, I need you all to know my one, and that included stories, you know, one dad saying, Yeah, my dad used to tell me that in revolutionary Mexico, the way that you could tell this bird. And so what a so much more enriching experience, too, for the quote, unquote educator, versus just what you think you're there to provide, the who you're supposed to educate. So that's what I mean about like these aspects of education. And it doesn't mean right, that we all have to have formal teacher training, but to at least really think about these mind shifts of how you're approaching the experience and relationship of the content and information you want to provide. I really appreciate that perspective,


Anders Reynolds  36:43
Jose, I've heard you mention travel almost every time. I've heard you speak, and specifically, I've heard you talk about how travelers are exposed to greater diversity. I wonder if you could unpack that idea of travel a little bit more. Are you talking about exploring your world, your community, or just going a little bit further down the trail rather than deciding to turn around right there.


Speaker 1  37:06
Good question. Part of it is all the above. I'll start with kind of the foundational idea of, what does it mean for you to go to where you haven't been before, and part of kind of the research around when they were saying, like, let's say we want to design a park and we want to get feedback from people and ask them, Well, what do you want to see? Sometimes you'll get good responses, but other times people, it'll be hard for them to tell you exactly what they want or what they like. But if you show them pictures, they can say, well, I like that one. I don't like that one. I like that one. I like that one. And if you ask them, Well, why, they might still get stuck, but I know there's something about that one. And I say this because that research would show that part of again, our adaptive evolutionary experience is those moments when we left the safety of, let's say, the very crowded trees, and now had to go to the Savannah. And we want it to go, but we want it to not be completely exposed. So we have this curiosity of just what's around the corner, but we don't want to be super exposed, and we want to have the ability to retreat to some outgrown comfort. So I say this because with travel is thinking about how we're designing these opportunities for that give you just enough that you're curious, you're interested, you're going to kind of peak, while also not just dropping you in the middle of the wilderness, right? And saying you got this and so with travel, I tell people, even if you're doing the maybe not full touristy, but you know, if you're gonna go visit another country or whatnot, remembering that little mind shift too, that says, What is it like for me to not be the center of that experience? What is it for me to actually be in relationship to that experience? So you're actually getting the benefits of difference and not just going with the expectation that everything should conform around you. And so that's why I tell people, yeah, I get it. But if you are a traveler, that is how you are challenging and expanding your mental models and like, helping your brain really think about the value of difference in that way which is very different than you. Like going out there and saying, it should all conform to me. Yeah, I


Bill Hodge  39:33
think it's interesting that that travel and that going beyond what you think you understand helps you understand that you, you're more than a monoculture, right? You're, you're a collection of, you know, we, we are multitudes, I guess is the line that comes to my mind. I think about, you know, on your website, you both identify as Latino and as Chicano. And honestly, where that sent me? Is like Andrew sent me on this journey. We both have a podcast we love called the rest is history. And they do a deep dive into things of history that I thought I understood that I later didn't. And one of the one of the series was, was about Montezuma and tonight and and the incredible culture that was there. It also was about the colonization by the Spanish at that point. But like, when I look at your art, for example, and I think about that, am I it's helped sort of expand. You know that those two different things, right? Like, I'm over on one podcast, learning this history that I thought I kind of understood, and I had no idea what I didn't know. I mean, that's the same thing that travel does for us, right? It helped. It helps round out not just what we understand about something, but who we are as a people, if I'm, if I'm thinking about that, right?


Speaker 1  40:52
Absolutely. And you know, there's, there's travel that you can do by reading a book, which people sometimes forget, but that is what you're doing. There's travel you can do physically, right in terms of going out of these different places. There's travel you can do in relationships and conversation and spaces. The difference, though, is in remember, for me, anyways, in remembering that approach, because some people can be very good about doing that by leading with curiosity, with an inquisitive mind, right? And thinking about that while you're still respecting the other. So give you an example. Is one of the classic case studies and examples of how you can do a microaggression by asking someone, where are you from? Now, if the expectation of that is because you I want to be right, that my pres, my assumption or my presumption, like it's got to fit, that's very different than actually being curious. To say, like, I'm noticing a difference, and I'm I'm curious to explore that. And rather than just where you from, I'd be like him, curious um, I noticed an accident. And just like, can you tell me, like, Where's, where's that come from? Um, or I, if you have a little bit of time, I'd like to know a bit about your story, right, which is very, it's a very different relationship, like, so to me, you're not traveling in that, but your point about history, same for me. I mean, I, yeah, you've heard me. People sometimes reference I say I'm Mexicano by birth, nationality, Latino by social, cultural identity, Chicano by social, political identity, and Hispanic by Census count. Those are all true because they're all also social constructs, but they they also speak to reasons why they matter to me, and it's less about me. Well, this is the right one, and we're finally going to get it. Yeah, good luck. I don't I don't think we're ever going to find the right term. That's okay. I'm interested in the exploration and the roots of that and why they have value, and why they may need to change and expand based on, like, what they provide for people? Yeah, I


Bill Hodge  43:05
think it's, I think it's important, because it's not just, again, we're not a single identity. And it is like, what happens is, when you put a label, which is the social construct you're talking about, you just sort of stop at the exploration right there, right like, and I think, let's be honest, an awful lot of people in this country would not know the difference between Hispanic and Latino, right? And you just identified four, all of which feed into this stew that make you who you are. And there's also a lot more, I'm sure. I mean, you're a conservationist, you're an educator. There's all of these things that that are you? And I just, yeah, I appreciate you, yeah, helping us think about that. Because I think so many people just like, stop at the surface and don't whatever that surface is, and they don't go beyond it.


Anders Reynolds  43:51
Before we wrap up, I gotta, I've got a comment on a thing each of you said, and Jose earlier, you said something like, it's the in the spirit of travel, it's going somewhere, and understanding that the place shouldn't adjust to you. And I think that's one of the inspirations that Bill and I took for starting to talk about wild places, is it's like one of the few landscapes where humility is left right, where you can still sort of adopt this idea of like, well, it's a place we haven't tried to control. It's a place we haven't tried to adjust to our own needs. It's a place where we're still at least experiencing this with some humility and saying, let's just see how it is and not how we can change it. And that's, that's something I appreciate about your answer. It's, it's a curiosity. I appreciate that. Appreciate about Bill and Bill, I just want to say talking about travel, especially if you want to travel to the time of Moctezuma, is there's a really good new fiction book out there called you dreamed of empires by Alvaro and reggae that I would really, really recommend to everybody. I think the review I read on it before I read it, call it like short Spike. And hallucinatory, and it's all those things. It's a really, really good book about that specific moment in history. So I'm endorsing it officially.


45:10
Love it. Love it. Yeah, that sounds


Bill Hodge  45:13
great. So I want to just ask a little bit about, you know, back to the multitudes that that that is, that are Jose, you're an artist on top of being an educator and being a conservation leader and consultant. And when I look at your art honestly, the very first thing that struck me was I have to be reminded that I tend to put this line between working lands and wild lands, and your art brings me back to, frankly, there's a range of things, but a lot of it, to me, brings back to what the earth provides us, right? There's a lot in there about, I guess I will say, the harvest, the bounty. Can you talk about, like, where did art begin for you, too, and how you know what informs your art, too, because, and also, by the way, would you please point people to the right place to go see this on your website? For us, we'd love for people to be able to


Speaker 1  46:08
find it. Yeah, the great thing is, been slowly reworking the website, and so when you go on there, you can go to like, where it says shop or out of day, and people can access it there. And we're building that up. I, you know, when I was in high school, the way that I would answer that question, what do you want to be when you grow up? I was like, I want to I want to be an illustrator. And whether that meant comic books or something like it, that's kind of where my brain was going. And that was I ended up being a history major for different conversation and different reasons, but art still stuck with me. And it was through some class, some screen printing classes with one of the just masterful Chicano artists, the Malachi as Montoya. You know where it was that introduction to what screen cleaning has meant in terms of social movements. It's like this is a way to deliver a message beyond just you're creating the pretty esthetic, so to speak. And so from then, I've carried this idea of that, unless I'm doing something whimsical, but even then, I'll sneak in something. But it's like having the illustration or the art piece be an entry point of engagement. So you look at it, and you're like, oh, yeah, that reminds me of Mesoamerican CODIS or, yeah, look, there's the water deity, CLA look and whatnot, but then you look at it and be like, Wait, oh, there's a story behind that that I'll either kind of begin to pick out or becomes the point of conversation. Be like, got it. And also, that's the hydrological cycle. And that's not just the water cycle as the water cycle, but it can connect to deeper experiences, historical stories and whatnot, and so it can be built to your point. Then we can talk about our conservation history all the way to Tenochtitlan and how it was a zero waste city. Because now they weren't calling it a zero waste city the way we're calling it now, but they were thinking about that in terms of those restorative practices. And so I think about like those, those restorative cycles, right? That are that have been part of much more sustainable elements, as opposed to what has ended up happening over the past, arguably, you could say over the past, definitely 500 if not over the last 1500 years, is we've gone so far off into purely extractive and much in an increasingly removal, both in language and practice and history and structures, You name it, from that relationship of history. So we've really gone into the human object relationship of history. I am the person that is the tree, that is an object that I can that really primarily is utility. We've created national forests, not because of the ecological value, but because of their value of which preserve. And we're slowly trying to, you know, I we're there, we're slowly moving back towards that. And what is this relationship, right, with our non human kin? So just gave you a lot of that, but that's some of what I'm thinking as I'm creating a little art piece that we can then talk about and say, Yeah, this is you want to dig into, the history, the story, the social, cultural elements and whatnot, and it's meant to look pretty


Anders Reynolds  49:44
Jose. I was so looking forward to this conversation, and I've got to say, it lived up to my expectations. I've had a great time. You approach these problems with so much wisdom and sympathy and sanity, and I just can't thank you. And. For the time and for all the work you do. Before we wrap up, I just want to ask, how can listeners who want to support your work get more involved?


Speaker 1  50:09
I would say, first of all, if you want to support Latino Outdoors, there's many ways. Of course, donate, show up online, give kudos to props. There's teams and chapters across the US, pretty easy to find Latino outdoors.org and same across socials. There is also a community of organizations. So I would say like, you know, find one that that you like and support. If there's a Latino Outdoors team yours, you with events, show up. You know, show up and support for me. You know, if you want to buy one of my prints or the like, please Have at it. Jose ganz.com and then at the end of the day, I would say one of the best way to support is show up and be curious, right? And like, share the message, go out and and be an example of the work that we're trying to do, because that's the kind of that's that's the way that I believe we we build the mycelial leadership that is necessary to sustain this work for the long term.


Bill Hodge  51:12
What a great place to wrap up, Jose again for me too. Thank you for coming, coming on and joining us. And I think that idea of folks going out, being curious, getting involved. One thing we want to ask to of our audience is, if you have questions that these conversations are stimulating for you, we hope you'll go to our website, at the wild idea.com there is a contact us form there and let us know. Anderson, I've been thinking a lot about the questions that I know we're generating for ourselves. And I think we're seeing from some of the feedback we're getting, the questions we're generating, please drop them in there. We may sort of wrap up this season with trying to get it. Get at some of those. But Jose again, thank you for joining us. This has been such a great conversation, and we look forward to more in the future. I


Speaker 1  51:55
love it. I'll leave audiences with these final words, be in nature, get out there as nature. Close that gap and revolutionary balance.


Voiceover  52:10
The wild idea is a production of wild idea media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds, production and editing by Bren Russell at podlad Digital, support by Holly wilkorzewski At day pack digital. Our theme music Spring Hill Jack is from railroad Earth and was composed by John ski hand. Our executive producer and ring leader is Laura Hodge. You can find the wild idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating, and if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at the wild idea.com you.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai