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Justin: You know, you can't have a single role that uses a bunch of services.

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You run out of, you run out of ability to add that to the policy.

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It just doesn't work.

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Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud.

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I'm Corey Quinn, and I am joined by a guest

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who it's been a while since I've spoken to.

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Justin Brodley is now the SVP of Cloud and Technology

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at Blackline and also the host of the CloudPod.

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Justin, it feels like it's been a month of Sundays since we've spoken formally.

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How are you?

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Justin: Uh, I'm doing great.

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You know, I remember your early days of streaming in the

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cloud, I think it was episode six or seven or maybe even eight.

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And you had me on and we talked about, uh, you know, being a corporate

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prisoner in the world of cloud, which was a fun conversation,

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but, uh, still a corporate prisoner in the world of cloud.

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Corey: But now it's become normalized.

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Justin: Yeah.

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Now it's normal.

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Now everyone's in the cloud and stuck there.

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Corey: Meet Prowler Open Source.

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Designed for the hands on professional, Prowler empowers you with an

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open, transparent platform to conduct detailed security assessments

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and compliance audits across AWS, Azure, GCP, and Kubernetes.

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Say goodbye to black box solutions and hello to a customizable

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security tool that grows with your infrastructure.

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Start with confidence knowing you're using the tool trusted by industry leaders.

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Visit frowler.

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com to get your first security scan in minutes.

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Now it's like, what's it like to be an

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ancient dinosaur who runs physical computers?

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Like, yeah, turns out that that is not, strictly speaking, accurate.

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But it is the, the, the Overton window, the perceptual

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position has changed on society, from society on this thing.

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Justin: Yeah, for sure.

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Uh, and you know, also if you're on the old dinosaur datacenter world,

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you're now paying extortionate prices to VMware, who I think you

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rightfully called the payday lender of technology for a long time.

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And now it feels that way for sure with Broadcom.

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Thank you for that.

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Corey: I'd forgotten I made that joke, but you're absolutely right.

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My comment nowadays is when we were younger and more foolish, we all used

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to pirate VMware, and then we all grew up and the pirates bought VMware.

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Justin: Yeah, that's what happened, for sure, but yeah, that's a travesty

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in the making for a lot of companies I think this year as they're all

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dealing with macro climate and their VMware bills are about to go up.

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In a dramatic way, uh, unfortunately.

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Corey: For a few years, I've been a fan of Google Cloud Next because as I

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will frequently say, it is a great place to go hang out with AWS customers.

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And I got to hang out with you at Google Cloud Next in Las Vegas.

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This time though, because you are an actual Google Cloud customer, which is

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probably why I haven't seen you quite as much opining on AWS things, which.

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Oh my God, you must feel so free and amazing,

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but let's start with talking about Next.

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How was it?

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Justin: This is my second year going to Next.

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I did the one in San Francisco the year before, uh, at Moscone,

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which, you know, as all conferences now in San Francisco is terrible.

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And so moving it to Vegas, you know, you had to worry

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about, is it re invent, you know, small or cousin?

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Uh, and it was, it was surprisingly good.

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It's a, you know, for their first attempt at Mandalay Bay and

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doing a conference in Vegas, they did a relatively good job.

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They have, you know, the growing pains and

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teething pains of the problems of that.

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Uh, you know, they use an arena for their

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keynote, which, you know, novel concept.

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Amazon, could you please just book, you know, the Oracle Raider

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Stadium, Oracle and Raider Stadium, and just use that for your

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keynote instead of trying to shove everyone into a small room.

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So.

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Yeah, some things they did well, some things they did poorly.

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They'll make improvements.

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Yeah, an

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Corey: example is that the arena staff were very

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clearly used to working with drunk sports fans.

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And they, uh, like, I don't, like, my comment was at one point, I wondered

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if they wound up hiring specifically for people who were surly or if

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they had a training program to get them there in the, on the upfront.

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Uh, they also had logistical challenges, like, huh, when the keynote lets

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out, suddenly it's going to be impossible to get anywhere for 45 minutes.

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So the next session starting five minutes later in the analyst

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summit, wasn't the best schedule attended thing as a result.

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But it was a, but these are growing pains and it's easy to get through.

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My concern, I had a suspicion this might be the case, in TK's

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keynote, he started off talking about AI and I kept waiting for

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him to talk about other things and it never really happened.

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So I started dressing myself with a clown nose and a clown wig and a clown vest

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and a clown bow tie, just because by the, by the end I didn't want him to feel

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unsupported as the only clown in the room who wouldn't stop talking about AI.

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The funny stories I heard after the fact are that, uh, like it was

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a security found out that, Oh, this might be a challenge of, is

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this going to be something that, uh, that we have to worry about?

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No, no, no.

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I'm not going to rush the stage.

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I'm just going to be unfortunately observant about a number of trends.

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And I was annoyed and confused by this until someone pointed

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out quite rightly that these performances, and that's what

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they are, are increasingly for investors, not for customers.

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Justin: Well, and this is the second year that Google Next has been just overly

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focused on the investors and making the investors happy from an AI perspective.

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I think last year was 160 some odd times he said AI on stage.

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This year was 111, you know, times that he said it.

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And so, you know, Google's very focused on where the investors care, which

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is not where I care as a customer about what they're investing in as much.

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But, uh, you know, I get those, you know, you're right.

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There's stage performance.

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It's, it's all about investors making them happy and that, that.

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You know, Google's serious about cloud, if you didn't know.

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Corey: Yes, which is why they spent very little time

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talking about cloud and a lot more talking about AI.

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I mean, the concern that I have, and maybe this is unfounded, maybe

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I'm not giving customers enough credit for sophistication, but they

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had giant billboards everywhere talking about the new way to cloud.

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And my, my thought is, well, if you're one of the large organizations

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that has just signed one of their highly publicized 10 year cloud

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deals, which is kind of built definitionally on the old way to cloud.

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Is this a concern?

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I mean, it's not like Google has a track record of losing

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interest in things and dropping the thing that they're currently

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selling in favor of the thing that they're building or anything.

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Like, does it, is this an actual concern for you as a

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serious company doing serious things on Google Cloud?

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Justin: You know, it comes up, you know, customers will ask me

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about it, you know, when they find out we're on Google cloud and,

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you know, go, well, aren't you worried they're going to cancel it?

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And, you know, they just have their earnings this last week, you

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know, they 25 billion in revenue from the Google cloud business.

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It's a hundred billion dollar run rate business.

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It would be surprising to me at this point in time, if they were to back

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away from it, but, you know, you always want to have some contingencies,

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you know, we do have a bit of a multi cloud strategy, you know,

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through acquisitions, we've picked up, you know, Amazon web services.

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We picked up Azure.

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Uh, and so, you know, we have our foot in all three clouds, even though our

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majority of our spend and majority of our workload runs on GCP, we have options.

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And as we think about more multi cloud, we're

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thinking more in the right way at a multi cloud is.

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You know, pick the right cloud for the problem

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you're trying to solve and use that one.

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And if you're using Google for big data and AI and, and Kubernetes,

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you're probably having a pretty good time on, on Google Cloud.

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Uh, if you're trying to do managed services or you're

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trying to do Microsoft licensing, maybe less so.

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Corey: The enterprise story functionally is regardless of the

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interesting experiments that you're doing in, in the cloud environment,

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in the overwhelmingly common case, you still have a giant mountain.

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of EC2 and, or VM equivalent, and our database, RDS,

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and data transfer, and S3, or object store, and great.

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And then there's a long tail of other

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stuff, and, I mean, AWS does the same thing.

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Even before they got this AI addiction to talking

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about things that they aren't shipping yet.

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They, uh, They did not give a whole lot of time to EC2 just because running VMs

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in a provider's environment is no longer top of mind interesting to most people.

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I mean, I find it fascinating.

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One of my absolute favorite parts of reInvent every year is the

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Monday night live with Peter DeSantis, which is improperly named.

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It should properly be named Surprise Late Night

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Computer Science Lecture with Professor DeSantis.

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And I am totally there for it.

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I come out of that thing three times smarter than I went

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in, which is odd because they often serve beer in it.

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Like, that is the stuff I care about, that is the stuff that is

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substantive and interesting and I can learn wonderful new things.

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But then the machine learning stuff has

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always been a little on the strange side.

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And don't get me wrong, customers are using AI in a bunch

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of different ways, they're just not necessarily going

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as all in on it as the hype would have people believe.

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Justin: Yeah, I think we're, how often now can you

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recognize ad copy that is clearly written by AI?

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Corey: I actually do have trouble with that, uh, because I, it turns

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out that I cannot, just like, it's, it's like the park ranger story

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where it's so hard to build bear proof containers, bear proof trash

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cans, because there's significant overlap between the smartest bears

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and the dumbest tourists, and I feel that same way with the best AI

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marketing and the worst human marketing also have significant overlap.

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Where I, like, I don't know if it's because a computer wrote

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it, or it's just bad copy, but I don't like it regardless.

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Uh, but if there, frankly, I guess what that means, if

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there is great, there are great things being written by

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AI, it's sneaking past my filter and I'm not aware of it.

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Justin: Yeah, I don't think it exists.

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I think that's the problem.

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I think the AI generated content sticks out like a sore thumb.

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Corey: I've been using it myself for the newsletter, but when

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I say that, everyone gets very nervous, until I complete the

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thought, which is, I use it to generate the, the placeholder text.

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For any given event.

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And sometimes it has a very funny turn of phrase

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that I'll use either there or somewhere else.

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Uh, once or twice it has come back with something objectively horrifying.

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Like there was one, um, AWS blog post about two months ago where it

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mentioned a woman who was doing an interesting work and its comment

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was and it took a while to get my prompt dialed in so it mostly sounds

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like me But you want to talk million mile miss, good news, the thing

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that's about to spike massively are Google image searches for, and

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then they put the woman's name in there, and it's no, no, no, no, no.

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We do not sexualize people because they happen to be a woman.

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This is a professional space.

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No.

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Now, if that had gone out in the newsletter, I would not have a

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newsletter anymore and probably not a company either, rightfully so.

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But it didn't because I don't send AI output on filtered to the outside world.

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Because I am not a fool.

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And that is, I think, where some of the

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worst expressions of AI are getting it wrong.

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Justin: I agree with you.

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I think people are overly confident in it.

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And, you know, I think Amazon Q, they just had in their announcement,

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they were talking about National Australian Bank, you know,

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accepting 50 percent of the recommendations from Q developer.

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And I was like, well, that's a bank that I don't

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necessarily want to use a business with right now.

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Because if you're accepting 50 percent of the code suggestions.

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That are being written by AI right now.

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I think you're in a lot of trouble because

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the code that's generating is not great.

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Corey: And let's be very clear on something here, that their

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metric for accepting of a suggestion from AI and what that

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actually looks like are not what people think they are.

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Very often, when I'll tell it, it'll automatically generate

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out an IAM role in the CDK when I'm building something out.

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Great.

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It is hilariously and comically wrong.

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I mean, Horribly so.

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Like, there are things that, there are

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condition keys that don't exist, for example.

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But you know what it did get correct?

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Bracket symmetry, parenthesis symmetry, the indentation is right

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there, and yeah, then I can accept the dumb suggestion, but

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then change the actual words to be something that isn't absurd.

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That is, I think, a very different thing than, Yeah,

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I'm just gonna tab complete my way through my job.

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Justin: Uh, but I, you know, again, take the time, build

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the personality into your AI like you're doing at the

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newsletter, and then filter and edit and be a strong editor.

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You know, you're probably one of the 1 percent people doing that.

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Most people are taking AI at face value in the wrong way.

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And the resulting, and I think where we're heading, I think we're on a

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rocket ship to the trough of disillusionment on a bunch of this AI stuff.

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Corey: I live in the trough of disillusionment about everything.

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Like, I'm the guy still waiting for the, uh, year of Linux on the desktop.

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I'm still waiting for containers.

246
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I'm still waiting for, um, For cloud, I'm still waiting for this and AI.

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This one is like AI and Linux containers on Linux desktop in the cloud.

248
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It's going to be year 2025.

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I'm sure of it, but it's, it's a, I'm used

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to being disappointed because I am cynical.

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That's what running, or I'm not being,

252
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I'm not disappointed because I am cynical.

253
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I expect the least.

254
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So all my surprises are pleasant.

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That comes from being an ops person.

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Justin: So I think it's gonna be interesting to see as these

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companies, like, you know, realize how limited what we have is.

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I mean, ML's been around for 10, 10, 15 years now at this point.

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And my joke on the CloudPod all the time

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is, uh, you know, AI is how ML makes money.

261
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That's the, that's our running gag about this is that

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it's the only way they've been able to make money on

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ML for years is by now rebranding it as AI and Gen AI.

264
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Um, but the same limitations are there.

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The cool stuff that you can do, like

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recognizing cancer and images and those things.

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Those are very strong pattern recognition matches.

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But when you get into like truly creating software, truly creating,

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uh, you know, words on a page and these things, it's so limited and

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how it interprets it that you see the limitations in the transformer

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model so quickly that I think people will see those issues.

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And that's how, like, I recognize AI generated content now, because

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It uses certain phrases and certain things that no, no person

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uses in a common conversation, you know, like, oh, you know,

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the candor of the gentleman at the table was amazingly bright.

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Like, you know, it's just like, no one talks that way.

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Like, this doesn't make sense.

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So unless you take the time like you're doing to tune it, You're

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going to have people who are constantly dealing with that.

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Corey: Yeah, I'll use odd words here.

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Someone said Delve.

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Like, I use the word Delve periodically, but

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it's not going to be three times in a paragraph.

284
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Like, that is where it starts.

285
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The wheels fall off.

286
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Uh, it feels almost like it's a modified form of

287
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Gell Man amnesia with Gen AI across the board.

288
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Which, for those who aren't aware, is when you read a newspaper

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article about something you know well, and you spot all the mistakes

290
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and how little the journalist understands about the area that you

291
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know a lot about, but then you completely forget that the next time

292
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you're reading about International relations or the Middle East

293
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crisis, and suddenly you're taking everything they say at face value.

294
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AI is very good at filler and surface level content, but as soon as you start

295
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delving into it, see, there I go, you wind up with a, you wind up with a,

296
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oh, this thing doesn't actually make sense and know what it's talking about.

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Now, a disturbing amount of the world gets by on

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surface level nonsense for things, and that is true.

299
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That is the way the world works.

300
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I'm not crapping on that.

301
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I use it to give me templates for reports and policies and

302
00:14:00,850 --> 00:14:04,180
things that might not necessarily be the most important.

303
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,639
Uh, I somewhat recently for a billing thing I was

304
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doing, had to come up with a example of a DR policy.

305
00:14:10,324 --> 00:14:10,714
Like, great.

306
00:14:11,094 --> 00:14:12,194
How do you do it for billing stuff?

307
00:14:12,194 --> 00:14:15,455
Well, the data is originally sourced from Curr,

308
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which lives in S3 buckets that Amazon places there.

309
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If that data goes away, the cloud has become free for you for that month.

310
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So, I think that there's a very different story going on then.

311
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You don't actually need to back that up to a third party.

312
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Explaining that in a way that makes sense for just a,

313
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basically, check the box for an insurance policy thing.

314
00:14:32,915 --> 00:14:33,324
Great.

315
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Here's the baseline thing.

316
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I explained the constraints and it put it into

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policy framework because they like policy.

318
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Long documents and not bullet points.

319
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And we iterate on that going forward.

320
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But I don't have it write the thing and then email it on my behalf.

321
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That is insane.

322
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Justin: Yeah, that's crazy time.

323
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Don't do that.

324
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I use it this year to help me write my reviews, which then I

325
00:14:51,199 --> 00:14:54,169
then had to edit quite heavily because, you know, you give it

326
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a list of like, here's what the person does well, and here's

327
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the person does bad, and like, write me a review on that.

328
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And it produces, you know, a bunch of filler content,

329
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which is fine, but then you have to make it, you know,

330
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sound like you, which is always sort of the fun part.

331
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Corey: There are times where I want to write an email,

332
00:15:08,145 --> 00:15:09,814
but I don't want to be bothered to write the eight

333
00:15:09,814 --> 00:15:12,165
paragraphs that the, that it requires to do it right.

334
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Uh, for example, one of my better prompts is, Respond to

335
00:15:15,074 --> 00:15:18,244
this email with the following sentiment, uh, in a tone that

336
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is either wildly enthusiastic or witheringly sarcastic, but

337
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is difficult, or if not impossible, to figure out which.

338
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And it understands the assignment more often than not.

339
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I, I tweak it a little bit, but it's a But that's the sort of thing where

340
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in certain circumstances, but that's the effect I want to get across.

341
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It's terrific.

342
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Justin: Well, you know, going back to Google Next, you

343
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know, there was AI at Google Next, but you know, there was

344
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other things that matter to you as a cloud practitioner.

345
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Not in the keynote, there weren't.

346
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Not in the keynote, not in the developer conference, not in any of the things.

347
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And I think this is the big problem that Google

348
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has in particular, because they've got AI at us.

349
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And then you also have got, you know, Amazon trying to chase that as well.

350
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Azure is a little bit more metered in this, although they have the same problem.

351
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Corey: Well, Azure is partnering with

352
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OpenAI, who is clearly the industry leader.

353
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So Microsoft's problem is stomping back from the wild over the top nonsense.

354
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Their GitHub division is refounding the company on AI, which

355
00:16:09,869 --> 00:16:12,330
is a scary thing to hear from the company that owns all of your

356
00:16:12,330 --> 00:16:15,199
corporate IP or holds their corporate IP and think they own it.

357
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Uh, the, like, this is going to change the nature of humanity.

358
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And frankly, they're changing the keyboards that the 104 key

359
00:16:21,290 --> 00:16:25,110
keyboards can be 105 now, and with a dedicated copilot key.

360
00:16:25,260 --> 00:16:27,680
And that doesn't bug me in the least because

361
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,340
it turns out that everything can remap it.

362
00:16:29,340 --> 00:16:31,979
Now I have one more button to tie to some meta

363
00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:34,069
function or whatnot through my keyboard remapping.

364
00:16:34,359 --> 00:16:34,709
Great.

365
00:16:34,749 --> 00:16:35,430
I'll live with that.

366
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Justin: The key is the, yeah, just everything

367
00:16:38,860 --> 00:16:40,030
wrong with Microsoft strategy on that.

368
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,369
But, uh, you know, but my point, I think, is Uh, you know, as you look

369
00:16:43,369 --> 00:16:46,050
at these cloud providers, you know, Google's got a lot of, a lot of

370
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foundational pieces and fundamentals to rebuild still in their cloud.

371
00:16:50,060 --> 00:16:52,339
You know, they're, they're still heavily partner focused.

372
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Uh, that they, you know, they don't have some of the basic things,

373
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like if you want to go get CIFS file servers, for example, to support

374
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your Windows workload on GCP, your answer is partner with NetApp, uh,

375
00:17:02,930 --> 00:17:06,099
whereas, you know, those of us in the data center business who want to

376
00:17:06,099 --> 00:17:08,769
get out of the data center business don't want to keep using NetApp or

377
00:17:08,770 --> 00:17:11,980
Palo Alto or these other vendors that they continue down this path with.

378
00:17:12,570 --> 00:17:16,080
And so there, there's this issue with Next, I think, where we had

379
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,660
to start talking about, like, It can't all be AI because if it's

380
00:17:19,660 --> 00:17:24,420
only AI and then AI falters or has bigger major issues or we run out

381
00:17:24,420 --> 00:17:27,019
of training data or any of the other things that we hear about AI.

382
00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:28,640
What else does Google have?

383
00:17:28,919 --> 00:17:30,030
What else does Amazon have?

384
00:17:30,030 --> 00:17:32,589
And right now, that's all they're doing.

385
00:17:32,610 --> 00:17:34,920
That's not a lot of innovation beyond AI.

386
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:36,959
And I think that's a risk for the cloud market in general.

387
00:17:37,340 --> 00:17:37,940
Corey: It is.

388
00:17:38,030 --> 00:17:39,950
And the challenge is, especially with the

389
00:17:39,950 --> 00:17:42,050
one I deal with the most is obviously AWS.

390
00:17:42,910 --> 00:17:47,290
And suddenly you have a chatbot that pops up on its website that is LLM powered.

391
00:17:47,564 --> 00:17:51,924
And it, if you ask it questions, it gives answers that occasionally are the

392
00:17:51,924 --> 00:17:56,064
sort of thing that if any AWS employee were to say them to me, Andy Jassy would

393
00:17:56,064 --> 00:18:00,414
personally drop out of a parachute out of a helicopter to fire them on the spot.

394
00:18:00,624 --> 00:18:02,784
Because that is so off brand and the rest.

395
00:18:02,924 --> 00:18:05,914
It makes up, it hallucinates, there's a polite way of lying.

396
00:18:06,205 --> 00:18:09,735
And it, it just very convincingly talks about things that aren't real.

397
00:18:10,205 --> 00:18:15,654
And when you're not conversant with a thing, you don't necessarily catch it.

398
00:18:15,824 --> 00:18:17,834
When I ask it for a list of regions and it mentions

399
00:18:17,834 --> 00:18:20,144
the one in Greece, it's like, okay, that's interesting.

400
00:18:20,464 --> 00:18:23,264
I don't believe there is one in Greece because most people don't

401
00:18:23,264 --> 00:18:25,914
have a visceral awareness of where all the AWS regions are.

402
00:18:25,955 --> 00:18:27,075
31, I believe now.

403
00:18:27,334 --> 00:18:29,024
Like, could I list them all off the top of my head?

404
00:18:29,034 --> 00:18:29,334
No.

405
00:18:29,334 --> 00:18:30,654
But when you tell me that there's going to be

406
00:18:30,654 --> 00:18:33,524
one in Duluth, I'm, that sounds suspicious.

407
00:18:33,564 --> 00:18:35,924
I don't recall there being one there.

408
00:18:36,094 --> 00:18:36,975
Let me look it up.

409
00:18:37,625 --> 00:18:40,375
And that is the stuff that can be dangerously misleading.

410
00:18:41,534 --> 00:18:43,975
Justin: It's always weird too when you catch it in those lies.

411
00:18:44,014 --> 00:18:45,804
Like I was, I was dealing with it the other day and I

412
00:18:45,804 --> 00:18:49,514
was trying to find out if this annoyance I had with some

413
00:18:49,514 --> 00:18:52,345
software, there was a feature request to fix my pain point.

414
00:18:52,735 --> 00:18:54,084
And so I asked and it's like, yeah, there's

415
00:18:54,084 --> 00:18:56,094
a GitHub issue related to your, your thing.

416
00:18:56,094 --> 00:18:58,425
And I'm like, cool, can you send me the link to that GitHub issue?

417
00:18:58,435 --> 00:18:59,245
And then it comes back and goes like,

418
00:18:59,254 --> 00:19:01,465
well, actually, there's not a GitHub issue.

419
00:19:01,534 --> 00:19:04,145
But I'm like, but you just told me confidently that there was.

420
00:19:04,645 --> 00:19:07,584
And, uh, you know, those little things like, you know, you just lose confidence

421
00:19:07,594 --> 00:19:11,794
so quickly in the AI because of those type of gotchas and the hallucinations.

422
00:19:11,794 --> 00:19:15,564
And it's like, how do I trust you ever when I, you know, when it matters?

423
00:19:15,614 --> 00:19:18,205
Uh, and I think that's, that's a risk for these companies.

424
00:19:18,694 --> 00:19:21,245
You know, you mentioned Andy Jassy, uh, and I, you're

425
00:19:21,254 --> 00:19:22,925
actually probably the best person I could ask about this.

426
00:19:23,375 --> 00:19:26,294
You know, it's, it's now been a couple of years since he's, uh,

427
00:19:26,304 --> 00:19:30,405
moved on from being the CEO of AWS to being the CEO of Amazon.

428
00:19:30,865 --> 00:19:32,415
And Adam Slipsky's come on to board.

429
00:19:32,705 --> 00:19:36,335
I'm not sure that I would say that this isn't the bomber of Amazon.

430
00:19:36,885 --> 00:19:40,094
Like I, I'm not seeing the big picture for him about

431
00:19:40,095 --> 00:19:42,395
how he's going to drive that company to the future.

432
00:19:42,845 --> 00:19:44,874
And then, you know, coupled that with Adam being

433
00:19:44,874 --> 00:19:47,854
kind of, you know, less visible than Andy ever was.

434
00:19:48,555 --> 00:19:51,734
It makes me wonder, coupled with all the employee dissent there,

435
00:19:51,734 --> 00:19:54,995
like, are they on the, on the wrong side of a lot of stuff?

436
00:19:54,995 --> 00:19:56,404
And are they going to be able to get out of this?

437
00:19:56,404 --> 00:19:58,195
Or do they need their Satya Nadella moment?

438
00:19:58,715 --> 00:19:59,795
Corey: Uh, a lot in there.

439
00:19:59,815 --> 00:20:05,110
Let me begin by saying that I don't know that there was any way to avoid

440
00:20:05,900 --> 00:20:10,400
Amazon going from where it was when Andy took over, to where it is now.

441
00:20:10,550 --> 00:20:11,599
Bezos is not a fool.

442
00:20:11,599 --> 00:20:13,680
I suspect he saw some of the writing on the wall and

443
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,760
decided that he would effectively, on some level, I don't,

444
00:20:16,950 --> 00:20:18,860
I don't mean to cast aspersions, I've never met the man.

445
00:20:19,070 --> 00:20:21,240
But I wonder if it was, I'm gonna toss my good buddy

446
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,540
Andy of 20 years under the bus to take the fall for this.

447
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:28,120
The job of Amazon CEO is one of those jobs that is both impossible to

448
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:32,215
do, And to someone in Andy Jassy's position, impossible to turn down.

449
00:20:32,725 --> 00:20:37,155
It's a, there is no way to win, there are only different ways to lose.

450
00:20:37,375 --> 00:20:39,765
Uh, one of the better examples was when they

451
00:20:39,864 --> 00:20:42,514
killed their Amazon Smile charity donation program.

452
00:20:42,675 --> 00:20:46,325
I am certain there were reasons internal, and good ones, to do that.

453
00:20:46,674 --> 00:20:50,805
And there is context that cannot be shared publicly around that for a certainty.

454
00:20:51,205 --> 00:20:54,615
But the world never sees that, so to all the world, all it looks like is,

455
00:20:54,655 --> 00:20:57,435
well, Andy's here now, so he's gonna, first thing he's gonna do is stomp out

456
00:20:57,435 --> 00:21:01,615
that pesky philanthropy, which is absurd if you just accept that on its face.

457
00:21:01,715 --> 00:21:03,915
Andy does a lot of philanthropic work.

458
00:21:03,925 --> 00:21:05,924
I admire the man deeply on a personal and

459
00:21:05,925 --> 00:21:07,334
professional level, let's be clear here.

460
00:21:07,495 --> 00:21:10,765
I know I dunk on the thing he built an awful lot that should not be

461
00:21:10,785 --> 00:21:15,915
misconstrued as anything other than More or less meet storytelling there.

462
00:21:15,915 --> 00:21:17,865
I have, he is, he's admirable.

463
00:21:18,105 --> 00:21:20,855
And the couple of times I've gotten to ask him questions, I have always come

464
00:21:20,855 --> 00:21:24,394
away with my head spinning at the implications of what he has said in response.

465
00:21:24,605 --> 00:21:25,864
He's, he's, the man is brilliant.

466
00:21:25,925 --> 00:21:26,754
There's no way around that.

467
00:21:26,935 --> 00:21:28,904
Justin: Yeah, I, I, he's brilliant on his own.

468
00:21:28,904 --> 00:21:29,414
I agree.

469
00:21:29,425 --> 00:21:33,815
It's just, it feels like Amazon is sort of in this, They're in

470
00:21:33,815 --> 00:21:36,285
the middle of the ocean without a paddle in a lot of ways on a

471
00:21:36,285 --> 00:21:40,285
bunch of areas from employee engagement, from Amazon, the store.

472
00:21:40,285 --> 00:21:42,455
I mean, the revenue doesn't say the story, but

473
00:21:42,485 --> 00:21:44,685
it, and Microsoft's revenue never was bad either.

474
00:21:44,784 --> 00:21:48,474
Like in the Balmer era, you know, their revenues were fine.

475
00:21:48,485 --> 00:21:51,215
The stockholders were happy, but like they lost their

476
00:21:51,215 --> 00:21:53,754
identity between the Gates era and the Satya era.

477
00:21:53,754 --> 00:21:57,165
And I feel like we're sort of going through that same process with

478
00:21:57,165 --> 00:22:01,314
Amazon at this moment and not nothing against Andy, nothing against Adam.

479
00:22:01,314 --> 00:22:02,945
They're boasting very smart, but they.

480
00:22:03,415 --> 00:22:06,535
They seem lost in a bigger picture of something other than

481
00:22:06,735 --> 00:22:08,925
we're chasing AI and hope AI is going to be the future.

482
00:22:09,875 --> 00:22:11,985
Corey: If you've ever felt boxed in by your security

483
00:22:11,995 --> 00:22:14,735
tools, it's time to break free with Prowler Open Source.

484
00:22:14,954 --> 00:22:19,305
Tailored for security and cloud architects who demand control and transparency.

485
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:22,270
Prowler delivers with a robust suite of security checks

486
00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:25,190
and the flexibility to adjust them as you see fit.

487
00:22:25,390 --> 00:22:29,079
From CIS benchmarks to GDPR compliance, handle it

488
00:22:29,079 --> 00:22:31,520
all with a tool that lets you see under the hood.

489
00:22:31,889 --> 00:22:34,470
Join a community of experts making cloud security

490
00:22:34,470 --> 00:22:37,700
accessible and, as a bonus, understandable.

491
00:22:38,059 --> 00:22:42,699
Don't just monitor your cloud environment, master it now at prowler.

492
00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:43,040
com.

493
00:22:43,889 --> 00:22:46,470
At this scale, Amazon's market cap far exceeds the

494
00:22:46,470 --> 00:22:48,710
GDP of I believe the majority of countries now.

495
00:22:49,645 --> 00:22:50,825
Ridiculous, but also true.

496
00:22:51,245 --> 00:22:52,535
They are effectively heads of state.

497
00:22:52,975 --> 00:22:55,945
And part of the challenge as well is that, you know this

498
00:22:55,975 --> 00:22:59,985
probably better than I do, but the, when you're at a certain

499
00:22:59,985 --> 00:23:03,814
level of executive seniority, you only really do two things.

500
00:23:04,374 --> 00:23:08,975
You hire people to run different orgs who report to you.

501
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:10,929
And then you set context.

502
00:23:11,340 --> 00:23:15,000
Everything else is done by power of that delegation.

503
00:23:15,439 --> 00:23:18,649
And some people are spectacular at it, some people are not.

504
00:23:18,850 --> 00:23:22,519
I, from my engineering background, I just think, well, I, I write code all

505
00:23:22,519 --> 00:23:25,339
the time and I could just jump in and do that job too by writing stuff.

506
00:23:25,389 --> 00:23:27,369
They don't write a lot themselves.

507
00:23:27,369 --> 00:23:28,840
They, they have things written for them.

508
00:23:28,850 --> 00:23:31,179
They wind up weighing in and corresponding.

509
00:23:31,189 --> 00:23:32,240
They're literate, don't get me wrong.

510
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,689
And they, they write, yes, but that, that is, that

511
00:23:34,699 --> 00:23:38,159
artifact output is not the core of what they do.

512
00:23:38,709 --> 00:23:39,330
And.

513
00:23:39,770 --> 00:23:42,120
I don't know what it takes to succeed in a role like that.

514
00:23:42,140 --> 00:23:45,240
I would never be in a position to be offered a job like that, which

515
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,440
is why I would never get so far as being able to turn it down.

516
00:23:47,450 --> 00:23:49,990
It wouldn't be presented to me, and that's a good thing for everyone.

517
00:23:50,379 --> 00:23:54,764
But it's a It's, I don't know what the right, what the right

518
00:23:55,075 --> 00:23:57,705
thing to do is, but some of these things are inevitabilities.

519
00:23:57,725 --> 00:24:00,544
The market demands growth at all size, at all costs.

520
00:24:00,915 --> 00:24:05,635
And at Amazon's scale, there are precious few new worlds left to conquer.

521
00:24:05,925 --> 00:24:08,284
You can do things around the margins that I think are foolish.

522
00:24:08,525 --> 00:24:10,515
The fact that Google search, the Google

523
00:24:10,525 --> 00:24:12,615
search results have been decimated by ads.

524
00:24:12,955 --> 00:24:17,555
The Amazon search search list for products has completely gone the way of

525
00:24:17,585 --> 00:24:20,895
garbage because of the way people game these things in Amazon themselves.

526
00:24:21,125 --> 00:24:23,815
And now we're starting to see ad experiments run in the AWS

527
00:24:23,845 --> 00:24:27,314
marketplace, which I'm sure is going to simply be more of the same.

528
00:24:28,465 --> 00:24:30,104
It makes a lot of money to do it.

529
00:24:30,314 --> 00:24:32,834
Advertising is, to big tech companies, past a

530
00:24:32,834 --> 00:24:34,935
certain point, a absolutely corrosive force.

531
00:24:35,594 --> 00:24:37,014
And I don't know how we fix it.

532
00:24:37,195 --> 00:24:39,804
Justin: Yeah, that was, that was my big thing from the, this

533
00:24:39,804 --> 00:24:42,665
week, this month's earnings for Amazon was, I think it was ad

534
00:24:42,665 --> 00:24:46,644
revenue grew to 18 billion, something like that in the quarter.

535
00:24:46,654 --> 00:24:48,644
Like, I mean, it's, it's a massive amount of growth for them.

536
00:24:48,644 --> 00:24:51,554
It's growing faster than Amazon web services is for them at this point.

537
00:24:51,564 --> 00:24:56,015
And that is fundamentally detrimental to the long term customer

538
00:24:56,015 --> 00:24:58,215
obsession that they say as part of their leadership principles.

539
00:24:58,245 --> 00:24:59,795
And so it's, it's just sort of, again, these.

540
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,120
It's an interesting inflection point.

541
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:06,210
I think we're going to look back at this era of Amazon and Apple,

542
00:25:06,510 --> 00:25:08,770
and maybe even some of the other companies out there and say,

543
00:25:08,770 --> 00:25:11,170
like, they were really on the wrong side of a bunch of stuff.

544
00:25:11,340 --> 00:25:13,910
Corey: If you were to spin off AWS as its own

545
00:25:13,910 --> 00:25:16,995
company, And then ask me to reason about that company.

546
00:25:17,014 --> 00:25:18,955
There are a hell of a lot of worlds left to conquer.

547
00:25:18,955 --> 00:25:21,655
I can come up with ideas for days, and I am not

548
00:25:21,655 --> 00:25:23,764
particularly creative in that particular way.

549
00:25:23,965 --> 00:25:26,135
I can think of a bunch of things that they would do,

550
00:25:26,334 --> 00:25:29,554
that they could do that day, that would revolutionize

551
00:25:29,554 --> 00:25:31,645
the way that they are perceived in a number of ways.

552
00:25:31,675 --> 00:25:34,734
But, as part of Amazon, a lot of those doors are closed to them.

553
00:25:34,735 --> 00:25:40,585
And as well as that, I, it doesn't move the needle on Amazon, the

554
00:25:40,625 --> 00:25:45,324
entity, because AWS, the business unit is important and increasingly so,

555
00:25:45,534 --> 00:25:49,344
but the earnings calls, I mostly start ignoring just because everyone

556
00:25:49,344 --> 00:25:51,704
instead wants to focus on how many boxes they're shipping and to where.

557
00:25:53,970 --> 00:25:57,330
Justin: A very large Fortune, fortune 10 company the other day.

558
00:25:57,330 --> 00:25:59,100
And we were talking about a project they were

559
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:01,290
talking about doing, uh, with my day job.

560
00:26:01,290 --> 00:26:05,550
And, you know, they were like, well, this project will save us about $8 million.

561
00:26:05,670 --> 00:26:06,390
And you're like, well, great.

562
00:26:06,390 --> 00:26:06,960
That's amazing.

563
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:07,590
We should do that.

564
00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:09,060
You know, this, this makes all the sense.

565
00:26:09,060 --> 00:26:10,980
And they're like, yeah, we won't even touch that.

566
00:26:11,130 --> 00:26:14,840
'cause at our scale and and size, $8 million doesn't do anything.

567
00:26:15,389 --> 00:26:17,040
And it's just, it's a level of scale.

568
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:18,270
You just don't understand where.

569
00:26:18,604 --> 00:26:21,215
You know, at the day job, if I saved 8 million, I'd be a hero.

570
00:26:21,585 --> 00:26:23,665
Uh, if you saved 8 million, Duckville Group, you

571
00:26:23,665 --> 00:26:26,115
know, they'd be super happy with you as well.

572
00:26:26,115 --> 00:26:27,015
Mike would love you.

573
00:26:27,285 --> 00:26:30,434
You know, it's just a different scale and it's hard to fathom that

574
00:26:30,434 --> 00:26:33,205
scale unless you're at a company of that size where, you know, we're

575
00:26:33,205 --> 00:26:36,354
not even going to touch that unless it moves the needle by 500 million.

576
00:26:36,965 --> 00:26:39,205
Corey: What's wild is I deal with my personal finances.

577
00:26:39,395 --> 00:26:42,695
I mean, I do okay, don't get me wrong, but I still rent in San Francisco because

578
00:26:42,795 --> 00:26:46,145
if you want to buy a house in the city, you need to exit a company twice.

579
00:26:46,455 --> 00:26:47,044
When.

580
00:26:47,445 --> 00:26:49,835
When I'm dealing with the Dunk Bill Group's finances,

581
00:26:49,875 --> 00:26:52,145
the numbers are a different order, not order of magnitude

582
00:26:52,145 --> 00:26:53,985
necessarily, but there's a significant difference there.

583
00:26:54,185 --> 00:26:59,395
But then, when I deal with customer AWS bills and words like, more revenue

584
00:26:59,395 --> 00:27:02,334
than the Dunk Bill Group makes in a year, uh, is what you're spending on that

585
00:27:02,334 --> 00:27:06,774
service, so it might not make sense to optimize that yet, is one of those weird

586
00:27:06,834 --> 00:27:11,034
things that, like, objectively, if you were to, like, optimize that, that, that

587
00:27:11,034 --> 00:27:15,200
dollar figure, And write it to me as a check, I could retire comfortably today.

588
00:27:15,340 --> 00:27:18,440
And that is just a, you have to make sure you're not

589
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,609
thinking about the wrong order of magnitude on these things.

590
00:27:21,770 --> 00:27:24,999
And then I talk to my almost 7 year old now about her allowance and

591
00:27:24,999 --> 00:27:27,800
what not, and I have to come down to a different order of magnitude,

592
00:27:28,010 --> 00:27:31,280
lest I inflict a bunch of inflation related problems solely on myself.

593
00:27:31,669 --> 00:27:33,289
Clean my room, that's 20.

594
00:27:33,340 --> 00:27:34,989
Like, not at this age.

595
00:27:35,239 --> 00:27:38,120
There is functionally no difference between 20 and a quarter.

596
00:27:39,490 --> 00:27:41,719
Yeah, it, it keeps things interesting.

597
00:27:41,949 --> 00:27:42,219
Justin: Yeah.

598
00:27:42,310 --> 00:27:46,999
As a thing in my forties, I, I still cringe when I break a 20 and

599
00:27:46,999 --> 00:27:50,239
now, you know, like that's what someone's dollar is these days

600
00:27:50,330 --> 00:27:51,379
Corey: when I was growing up.

601
00:27:51,379 --> 00:27:53,860
My parents always had an emergency 20 tucked away in their wallet.

602
00:27:53,860 --> 00:27:56,080
And now I have an emergency a hundred tucked away in my wallet.

603
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:57,689
It's like, well, a lot of the places won't accept that.

604
00:27:57,689 --> 00:27:58,149
It's like, no, no.

605
00:27:58,149 --> 00:27:59,659
If I need to break into that for a problem.

606
00:28:00,085 --> 00:28:02,095
Keep the change is not a problem because it's

607
00:28:02,095 --> 00:28:04,705
like either that or I don't have gas to get home.

608
00:28:05,025 --> 00:28:07,715
There's a, there's always, it's just nice having that,

609
00:28:07,805 --> 00:28:11,064
that back pocket get out of jail free thing if I need it.

610
00:28:11,355 --> 00:28:13,415
And I'm sure my kids will find a comp, at some point they're gonna

611
00:28:13,415 --> 00:28:16,504
have to have bigger bills than hundreds for that sort of plan to work.

612
00:28:17,074 --> 00:28:18,094
Justin: That's a scary thought, isn't it?

613
00:28:18,874 --> 00:28:20,844
Corey: Something you mentioned a little while back.

614
00:28:21,090 --> 00:28:26,189
Was that, uh, Google Cloud is now at a $25 billion a quarter revenue side, which

615
00:28:26,189 --> 00:28:30,330
is on par with AWS just hitting a hundred billion in annual run rate as well.

616
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:31,800
And that threw me for a second.

617
00:28:31,804 --> 00:28:35,370
Then I realized, oh wait, this is the same thing as what I saw on a sign

618
00:28:35,519 --> 00:28:41,999
advertising at Google Cloud next, that 90% of AI startups are on Google Cloud.

619
00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:45,209
And that struck me as first as wildly high.

620
00:28:45,209 --> 00:28:46,709
And then I remembered, oh.

621
00:28:47,490 --> 00:28:49,620
That is super interesting, but not because

622
00:28:49,620 --> 00:28:51,050
of the reason that they want me to think.

623
00:28:51,250 --> 00:28:53,930
Instead, it's because I really want to talk to the 10 percent

624
00:28:53,930 --> 00:28:57,060
of companies that somehow are not using Google Workspace.

625
00:28:57,230 --> 00:28:59,670
Who doesn't use Google Docs and Gmail for this stuff?

626
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,839
What are they doing in a company founded today?

627
00:29:02,069 --> 00:29:04,560
I want to know what they see and how they get there.

628
00:29:04,779 --> 00:29:06,640
Because Google Workspace is a behemoth.

629
00:29:06,995 --> 00:29:10,205
I used to say that that wasn't really fair as being part of, kind of part of

630
00:29:10,205 --> 00:29:15,895
cloud revenue, but I was wrong on that because as killed last week, AWS has

631
00:29:15,905 --> 00:29:20,535
WorkDocs or this week or whenever it is, as of recording it is in the past.

632
00:29:20,535 --> 00:29:21,384
I just don't remember the time.

633
00:29:21,384 --> 00:29:22,714
It's a flat circle, but yeah.

634
00:29:22,714 --> 00:29:24,924
So they, Amazon had one, they killed it.

635
00:29:25,074 --> 00:29:25,765
It's fair.

636
00:29:26,205 --> 00:29:27,585
But what I care about is infrastructure,

637
00:29:27,595 --> 00:29:29,865
not those business application side of it.

638
00:29:30,045 --> 00:29:30,305
Justin: Yeah.

639
00:29:30,315 --> 00:29:32,435
I mean, that's a very common path where people get

640
00:29:32,435 --> 00:29:35,425
to Azure because they're a big Office 365 subscriber.

641
00:29:35,790 --> 00:29:37,340
And that's a big path of how they get to Google

642
00:29:37,340 --> 00:29:39,170
as they were a Google Workspace customer first.

643
00:29:39,210 --> 00:29:43,220
And there, and in both cases, Office 365 less so, but in

644
00:29:43,220 --> 00:29:45,750
Google Workspace, it's tightly embedded into Google Cloud.

645
00:29:45,780 --> 00:29:47,820
Like it, if you want to be able to use it, you need to

646
00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:50,869
have a Google Workspace account to do basic functions.

647
00:29:51,410 --> 00:29:55,140
Um, and so it does, it does lead you there directly because it's easy.

648
00:29:55,140 --> 00:29:55,740
Click the button.

649
00:29:55,740 --> 00:29:58,320
And now I have Google Cloud resources tied to my workspaces.

650
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,170
And, uh, and I'm off to the races.

651
00:30:01,030 --> 00:30:06,760
You know, it's sort of interesting, the, the BigQuery component of GCP, and

652
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,780
then their support of Kubernetes, is the biggest driver for initial cloud

653
00:30:11,790 --> 00:30:16,059
workloads coming into GCP, uh, when you talk to customers who are in the space.

654
00:30:16,289 --> 00:30:19,740
From there, you then jump into, they stole the SageMaker

655
00:30:19,740 --> 00:30:22,686
product manager who basically created SageMaker 2.

656
00:30:22,686 --> 00:30:23,214
0 and Vertex.

657
00:30:23,655 --> 00:30:25,785
Um, it would fix a lot of the deficiencies of

658
00:30:25,785 --> 00:30:27,815
SageMaker that SageMaker still has not fixed.

659
00:30:28,355 --> 00:30:30,525
Corey: Dangerous to steal that person because honestly

660
00:30:30,525 --> 00:30:33,575
SageMaker started being a shorthand or the uh, the parent

661
00:30:33,585 --> 00:30:36,505
service for felt like 200 different subservices under it.

662
00:30:36,505 --> 00:30:38,575
So clearly that person's an empire builder and

663
00:30:38,575 --> 00:30:40,674
effective at navigating the bureaucracy to do it.

664
00:30:40,844 --> 00:30:43,534
Like what's the difference between a feature and a product in AWS?

665
00:30:43,535 --> 00:30:45,605
Oh, quite simply how charismatic the product owner is.

666
00:30:46,115 --> 00:30:48,185
Justin: So, you know, but Vertex itself is,

667
00:30:48,275 --> 00:30:50,355
is got a lot of great things going for it.

668
00:30:50,365 --> 00:30:51,995
And so I think it just naturally makes sense.

669
00:30:51,995 --> 00:30:53,325
They're also investing a ton of money in

670
00:30:53,325 --> 00:30:55,964
startups in the, in the AI space as well.

671
00:30:55,964 --> 00:30:59,074
And, you know, trying to copy chat GPT, if that's right.

672
00:30:59,355 --> 00:31:04,034
You mentioned earlier GitHub, uh, co pilot a little bit on chat GPT.

673
00:31:04,034 --> 00:31:05,875
And it's interesting because I think of both at Google Next.

674
00:31:06,550 --> 00:31:08,620
Um, and now with the new Amazon Q developer

675
00:31:08,620 --> 00:31:10,350
announcement they just had this last week.

676
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,540
Um, they both have now gone to the point where they're now indexing your entire

677
00:31:14,570 --> 00:31:18,170
code repository to then give you insights into your code so you can actually

678
00:31:18,170 --> 00:31:20,630
now like, well, I need to call that other service, which is a different

679
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,620
API, and just call it by name and gives you basically the API commands you

680
00:31:24,629 --> 00:31:27,770
need to make that call on the web endpoints that are defined in your code.

681
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,550
Um, ChatGPT and OpenAI and what they're doing with

682
00:31:32,550 --> 00:31:35,280
GitHub Copilot is actually behind right now, I think.

683
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,650
So I'm actually curious to see, you know, are they going to leapfrog

684
00:31:39,730 --> 00:31:42,520
at Build, which is happening I think in two or three weeks now.

685
00:31:42,740 --> 00:31:42,900
Corey: Yeah.

686
00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:43,909
I've been invited to it.

687
00:31:43,910 --> 00:31:45,170
I'm trying to figure out if I go.

688
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,840
The, the honest problem I've got is this show.

689
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:52,580
Specifically because I have beaten up Azure for a while on not, not

690
00:31:52,580 --> 00:31:57,679
necessarily their security issues as such, but rather the lack of

691
00:31:57,770 --> 00:32:01,130
public response to them because I think their customers deserve better.

692
00:32:01,140 --> 00:32:02,209
What is going on?

693
00:32:02,390 --> 00:32:06,569
When Google or AWS have vulnerabilities, as they do from time

694
00:32:06,569 --> 00:32:09,679
to time, their response is uniformly excellent and rapid.

695
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,170
And the problem is, is I don't want, I don't have a rule.

696
00:32:13,170 --> 00:32:14,900
I don't make people regret inviting me to

697
00:32:14,900 --> 00:32:16,930
things and helping give me a platform to do it.

698
00:32:17,470 --> 00:32:19,390
But there's no way for me to have conversations with

699
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,840
people there and not ask that as the first question.

700
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,689
I, I owe that to my own integrity, if nothing else.

701
00:32:24,870 --> 00:32:27,760
And if they're just going to avoid the topic or give non answers, Then I

702
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,570
don't care what they're doing with AI if I can't trust the security of the

703
00:32:31,580 --> 00:32:34,800
data that feeds it and the response I get from it if it's critical to me.

704
00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:37,730
Justin: Yeah, I mean, I, you mentioned Wiz, I think, at one point in the

705
00:32:37,730 --> 00:32:40,990
show, and every time they write a blog post about an Azure vulnerability and

706
00:32:40,990 --> 00:32:44,480
you read through the details, it's just like, how did you not think of this?

707
00:32:45,299 --> 00:32:46,570
Corey: It's totally secure unless you like

708
00:32:46,570 --> 00:32:49,170
hit a packet against a high port or, you know.

709
00:32:49,485 --> 00:32:50,595
Try another password.

710
00:32:50,815 --> 00:32:53,715
And when Wiz talks about other things about finding exploits with

711
00:32:53,725 --> 00:32:56,955
Google or with AWS, and I've talked to the researchers about it,

712
00:32:57,185 --> 00:32:59,765
midway through these explorations, usually they get a phone call

713
00:32:59,765 --> 00:33:02,945
from those cloud security teams going, so what's going on, buddy?

714
00:33:03,065 --> 00:33:04,614
Uh, anything you want to talk to us about?

715
00:33:04,925 --> 00:33:06,865
Whereas with Microsoft, they report the

716
00:33:06,865 --> 00:33:08,965
issue and a month goes by with no response.

717
00:33:08,965 --> 00:33:10,945
They report it again, six weeks go by and

718
00:33:10,945 --> 00:33:12,985
then they begrudgingly acknowledge receipt.

719
00:33:14,485 --> 00:33:16,215
Yeah, I mean, because security is hard.

720
00:33:16,394 --> 00:33:18,354
They are better than I would be at their scale.

721
00:33:18,354 --> 00:33:18,955
I get it.

722
00:33:19,575 --> 00:33:22,155
But I would not be doing security at their scale.

723
00:33:22,175 --> 00:33:25,454
I would have a crack team of people, not just who are good at it, but

724
00:33:25,454 --> 00:33:28,395
who understand how to communicate about it, how to drive it holistically.

725
00:33:28,675 --> 00:33:31,715
Hiring Charlie Bell to run security was on its face a great

726
00:33:31,715 --> 00:33:34,365
idea, except for the part where I strongly suspect it.

727
00:33:34,430 --> 00:33:37,910
His 27 or whatever it was, years at Amazon, almost certainly taught

728
00:33:37,910 --> 00:33:41,130
him the Amazon way, which is very much not the Microsoft way.

729
00:33:41,620 --> 00:33:45,749
You cannot export culture between giant companies like that, to my experience.

730
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:47,590
Justin: Well, and also you, you have to have

731
00:33:48,020 --> 00:33:49,759
enough security knowledge to be effective.

732
00:33:49,759 --> 00:33:52,450
And, you know, you talked about SVP level hiring and,

733
00:33:52,780 --> 00:33:54,840
you know, yeah, it's partly about him being able to

734
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,660
set a strategy and hire people who can execute it, but.

735
00:33:58,180 --> 00:33:59,800
You know, it's, it's more than that.

736
00:33:59,830 --> 00:34:02,920
Like you have to have fundamental strategic thinking in the space

737
00:34:02,940 --> 00:34:06,220
and thought leadership in that space to be effective at scale.

738
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,860
And I think, you know, reading through the CISA report that came

739
00:34:08,860 --> 00:34:12,239
out on that exchange attack, you know, it was pretty damning.

740
00:34:12,250 --> 00:34:15,349
I mean, as bad as the SolarWinds attack in many ways and the outcome

741
00:34:15,350 --> 00:34:18,925
of what happened there, Uh, in the supply chain breaches that happened.

742
00:34:19,415 --> 00:34:22,975
Um, you know, they've got to change their way and I'm seeing it already.

743
00:34:22,975 --> 00:34:25,135
Satya has spent a lot of time at the, at the earnings

744
00:34:25,135 --> 00:34:27,545
call talking about security and how important it is.

745
00:34:27,555 --> 00:34:29,975
It sounds like they're making it now part of OKRs for

746
00:34:30,175 --> 00:34:32,775
every executive at the company to be security focused, but.

747
00:34:33,395 --> 00:34:35,915
It's upsetting to me when it's like, well, the only reason why

748
00:34:35,915 --> 00:34:38,075
you're doing that is because you got embarrassed by the CISA.

749
00:34:38,615 --> 00:34:39,845
That's the wrong reason to do it.

750
00:34:39,845 --> 00:34:41,165
That's a bad reaction.

751
00:34:41,365 --> 00:34:41,565
Yeah.

752
00:34:41,565 --> 00:34:42,188
Well, Cloud Next.

753
00:34:42,188 --> 00:34:43,574
Versus, it should have been part of your culture.

754
00:34:43,575 --> 00:34:43,685
The

755
00:34:43,695 --> 00:34:45,035
Corey: topic was fascinating to me.

756
00:34:45,035 --> 00:34:47,144
They said that I was banging on about Azure

757
00:34:47,155 --> 00:34:49,774
security being scary and bad, uh, two years ago.

758
00:34:49,955 --> 00:34:52,204
And they thought I was being over the top, histrionic.

759
00:34:52,865 --> 00:34:53,535
Sometimes, sure.

760
00:34:53,935 --> 00:34:57,225
But then all this came out and their big question for me was, how did I know?

761
00:34:57,645 --> 00:35:00,525
And the simple answer was, look, when, when things come to

762
00:35:00,525 --> 00:35:04,045
light, as they do, I look at the response and how it was handled.

763
00:35:04,245 --> 00:35:10,245
When there was a AWS glue, cross tenant vulnerability discovered, I may have

764
00:35:10,245 --> 00:35:13,854
been by Wiz, may have been by Orca, may have been by Datadog Security, but, no.

765
00:35:14,105 --> 00:35:19,625
Yeah, it was, the response was simply we have, they did analysis on

766
00:35:19,625 --> 00:35:22,265
this, they fixed the issue and said that we have examined the audit

767
00:35:22,265 --> 00:35:24,954
logs for the service dating back to its launch seven years ago.

768
00:35:25,325 --> 00:35:28,424
And as a result, we've returned conclusively the only time this

769
00:35:28,424 --> 00:35:30,884
has ever been done was when the security researcher did it.

770
00:35:31,275 --> 00:35:34,425
The Azure vulnerability, we have no indication that this has been exploited.

771
00:35:34,905 --> 00:35:37,955
That reads to me as what even are logs, philosophically speaking?

772
00:35:38,025 --> 00:35:42,365
Justin: Yeah, it clearly there's a gap in their culture on

773
00:35:42,365 --> 00:35:45,745
that, but you know, the logs are just the being a piece of it.

774
00:35:45,745 --> 00:35:47,495
You need to have so much more threat intelligence

775
00:35:47,495 --> 00:35:49,765
now, threat hunting activities, red teaming.

776
00:35:50,214 --> 00:35:54,045
There's just things I don't really hear about a lot at Microsoft.

777
00:35:54,084 --> 00:35:55,374
It's not part of, you know, I've hired

778
00:35:55,374 --> 00:35:56,905
lots of Microsoft developers in my career.

779
00:35:57,284 --> 00:36:01,115
I've hired Microsoft executives, just security is not on the forefront

780
00:36:01,125 --> 00:36:03,165
of what they talk about when they, when they think about these

781
00:36:03,175 --> 00:36:05,175
things, and that's just a cultural change that they have to make.

782
00:36:05,445 --> 00:36:05,964
They get there.

783
00:36:05,965 --> 00:36:06,015
Yeah.

784
00:36:06,465 --> 00:36:10,415
Corey: Security is not the forefront of what AWS talks about either.

785
00:36:10,515 --> 00:36:12,505
But it is the forefront of how they approach these

786
00:36:12,515 --> 00:36:14,825
things, how they think about things, and how they operate.

787
00:36:14,985 --> 00:36:17,084
I've been saying for a while they should talk more about

788
00:36:17,084 --> 00:36:19,334
it, because everyone runs their mouth about security.

789
00:36:19,475 --> 00:36:23,775
They don't seem to very much, but they have a better story than almost anyone.

790
00:36:23,945 --> 00:36:26,255
The only folks who are better at it, to my experience,

791
00:36:26,255 --> 00:36:29,145
has been Google Cloud, which sounds controversial.

792
00:36:29,485 --> 00:36:32,415
But the actual implementation of their security programs comes down to

793
00:36:32,584 --> 00:36:35,675
which one is better depends on who had what for breakfast on any given day.

794
00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:38,810
For me, though, it's a simple change, which is that inside of

795
00:36:38,810 --> 00:36:41,330
a Google Cloud project, to my understanding, and please correct

796
00:36:41,330 --> 00:36:44,150
me if I'm wrong on this, by default, almost every resource can

797
00:36:44,150 --> 00:36:47,449
talk to almost every resource within the bounds of that project.

798
00:36:47,889 --> 00:36:49,510
Does that align with your understanding as well?

799
00:36:50,020 --> 00:36:51,970
And then at some point, if you work in, I don't know, a regular

800
00:36:52,020 --> 00:36:55,750
industry like you, you can disable that and restrict that down further.

801
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:56,970
Great.

802
00:36:57,020 --> 00:36:58,709
By the time you want to do that, you generally

803
00:36:58,710 --> 00:37:01,610
have a security apparatus that does that for you.

804
00:37:01,959 --> 00:37:04,970
Whereas, by default, AWS's, nothing can talk

805
00:37:04,970 --> 00:37:07,029
to anything and must be explicitly allowed.

806
00:37:07,189 --> 00:37:09,679
Which leads to the very human problem of, I'll

807
00:37:09,679 --> 00:37:11,289
try it, oh it failed, I'll broaden the role.

808
00:37:11,499 --> 00:37:12,769
Try it, fail, broaden the role.

809
00:37:12,830 --> 00:37:15,320
And after a few times of that, screw it, allow everything.

810
00:37:15,630 --> 00:37:17,970
And I still have a load bearing to do from six years ago

811
00:37:17,970 --> 00:37:20,590
in one of my lesser accounts, uh, with, uh, CodeBuild,

812
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,720
saying go back and remove administrator access.

813
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,660
I haven't gotten around to it because it's annoying.

814
00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:28,770
Justin: I mean, one of the things about GCP when you think about that particular

815
00:37:28,770 --> 00:37:33,110
aspect is there, you know, it's the difference between IAM, you know, in Amazon,

816
00:37:33,140 --> 00:37:38,810
and GCP is the equivalent of Novell, Rootware, directories, and AD directories.

817
00:37:39,050 --> 00:37:41,080
Like, it's a completely inverse thought process.

818
00:37:41,090 --> 00:37:44,450
So from Amazon's perspective, you get very broad and you go narrow.

819
00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:47,380
And from Google's perspective, you go very narrow and you go broad.

820
00:37:47,810 --> 00:37:51,400
And so that single decision of how you think about it really dramatically

821
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,930
changes the way, entire way you approach the security model for that.

822
00:37:54,930 --> 00:37:58,330
Cause you know, you can't have a single role that uses a bunch of services.

823
00:37:58,339 --> 00:38:01,320
You run out of, you run out of ability to add that to the policy.

824
00:38:01,389 --> 00:38:01,889
It just doesn't work.

825
00:38:01,899 --> 00:38:04,119
You have to create more smaller policies.

826
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:06,300
You have to attach more policies to things to make things work.

827
00:38:06,660 --> 00:38:08,130
And it's just a different fundamental choice.

828
00:38:08,595 --> 00:38:11,605
And they, you know, being a third mover, they have the ability to see what

829
00:38:11,605 --> 00:38:14,635
Azure did wrong and what Amazon did wrong, and they made different mistakes.

830
00:38:14,775 --> 00:38:16,934
Corey: Your usability is a security issue.

831
00:38:16,995 --> 00:38:17,875
People miss that.

832
00:38:18,285 --> 00:38:20,875
The, like, I hate the security awareness training every year.

833
00:38:20,924 --> 00:38:23,044
That, oh yeah, remember, if you click the wrong

834
00:38:23,044 --> 00:38:25,015
link in an email, you could destroy the company.

835
00:38:25,245 --> 00:38:25,585
Great.

836
00:38:25,645 --> 00:38:28,295
If you're an accountant or a marketing person or an admin assistant, you click a

837
00:38:28,295 --> 00:38:31,985
wrong link and it takes the entire company down, maybe that's not your problem.

838
00:38:31,995 --> 00:38:35,445
Maybe that is a problem with the entire way that we,

839
00:38:35,585 --> 00:38:37,605
both as a company and collectively as an industry.

840
00:38:37,750 --> 00:38:41,750
Have addressed where the buck stops with regard to cyber security.

841
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,780
Justin: I mean, it's got to be in a board level thing.

842
00:38:44,780 --> 00:38:47,460
It's got to be an executive level thing on security.

843
00:38:47,820 --> 00:38:50,440
It's part, it's part of your entire organization.

844
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,139
It might not be what you're talking about, but it has to

845
00:38:52,139 --> 00:38:54,630
be part of the practices that you see in the organization.

846
00:38:54,630 --> 00:38:57,019
I'm curious to see how Microsoft does evolve from here.

847
00:38:57,020 --> 00:39:01,280
I mean, it was a little bit interesting Azure,

848
00:39:01,290 --> 00:39:03,310
which always annoys me when vendors do that.

849
00:39:03,705 --> 00:39:06,095
You know, they had a security blog post, or, you

850
00:39:06,095 --> 00:39:08,905
know, directly responding to the CSRB report.

851
00:39:09,215 --> 00:39:12,535
And then they, you know, they wrote a couple thousand words on You know,

852
00:39:12,545 --> 00:39:15,235
how the unique culture of security at AWS makes it different, you know,

853
00:39:15,235 --> 00:39:18,465
in direct response to Azure getting just bludgeoned by the government.

854
00:39:18,775 --> 00:39:20,134
Corey: Did they name check Azure or

855
00:39:20,134 --> 00:39:22,565
Microsoft on that, or was it just the timing?

856
00:39:23,285 --> 00:39:25,424
Justin: No, they call out the, you know, a recent report from

857
00:39:25,424 --> 00:39:27,564
the Cyber Safety Review Board makes it clear that deficient

858
00:39:27,565 --> 00:39:29,994
security culture can be a root cause for avoidable errors.

859
00:39:30,185 --> 00:39:32,115
I mean, it just, you know, yes, you didn't say it.

860
00:39:32,135 --> 00:39:32,495
They said it

861
00:39:32,495 --> 00:39:33,105
Corey: without saying it.

862
00:39:33,105 --> 00:39:33,695
Yeah.

863
00:39:33,845 --> 00:39:34,755
Close to the edge.

864
00:39:34,775 --> 00:39:37,900
It's a, they are It's strange because in other

865
00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:39,860
areas, Azure could be punching down at them.

866
00:39:39,890 --> 00:39:42,140
Uh, easy, sensitive example of them, AI.

867
00:39:42,940 --> 00:39:45,730
And Microsoft is doing a better job with AI than Google

868
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:49,220
and then, and Google is doing a better job than Amazon.

869
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,739
Amazon is horribly sensitive to the perception that they're behind, so they're

870
00:39:53,739 --> 00:39:56,879
doing everything in their power to affirm that they are behind by releasing

871
00:39:56,889 --> 00:40:01,710
things too early that aren't really fit for purpose and then discussing

872
00:40:01,710 --> 00:40:05,300
them in ways that do not align with what their customers want them to do.

873
00:40:05,300 --> 00:40:05,369
Microsoft Mechanics

874
00:40:05,700 --> 00:40:07,570
Justin: But even, even giving you a cohesive

875
00:40:07,580 --> 00:40:10,510
vision of AI on Amazon would be a big step.

876
00:40:10,510 --> 00:40:12,480
Cause like I, I get lost between.

877
00:40:12,955 --> 00:40:17,325
Okay, you've got this queue thing, you've got SageMaker, you've got Bedrock,

878
00:40:17,335 --> 00:40:21,285
and then you've got a bunch of other ML AI capabilities you've done as

879
00:40:21,285 --> 00:40:24,985
point solutions, but none of it seems connected, none of it is aligned, and

880
00:40:24,994 --> 00:40:28,484
ultimately it feels like it's all just, you know, throw it at the wall, see

881
00:40:28,485 --> 00:40:31,104
what sticks, and whatever sticks is what we're gonna talk about at reInvent.

882
00:40:31,635 --> 00:40:33,005
And, uh, hope for the best in the future,

883
00:40:33,005 --> 00:40:35,395
but it's super disconnected in its strategy.

884
00:40:35,395 --> 00:40:35,744
It

885
00:40:35,825 --> 00:40:36,385
Corey: really is.

886
00:40:36,745 --> 00:40:38,975
And I hope for the best, but we'll see.

887
00:40:39,005 --> 00:40:40,775
ReInvent, I want to say, is nigh.

888
00:40:40,785 --> 00:40:41,235
It's not.

889
00:40:41,245 --> 00:40:44,915
Don't worry, it's still in, um, December this year, first week of December,

890
00:40:45,105 --> 00:40:49,135
which, great, oh, easy enough, we're recording now, and it's still April.

891
00:40:49,135 --> 00:40:50,315
Oh no, it's May.

892
00:40:50,335 --> 00:40:51,165
It's coming.

893
00:40:51,565 --> 00:40:55,015
And, will you be there this year, or are you going to make good choices?

894
00:40:55,555 --> 00:40:57,205
Justin: Uh, I have not.

895
00:40:57,815 --> 00:40:59,485
It's been for the last couple years and I think I'm going to

896
00:40:59,485 --> 00:41:02,535
continue to make that choice just it's uh, you know It's too big.

897
00:41:02,545 --> 00:41:03,765
I've for years now.

898
00:41:03,765 --> 00:41:06,745
I've said they need to break reinvent and to be regional They should

899
00:41:06,745 --> 00:41:10,495
have a European reinvent They should have a Asia pack reinvent and make

900
00:41:10,505 --> 00:41:13,984
it smaller make it more focused and until they do that I don't know if

901
00:41:13,984 --> 00:41:16,814
I want to go back I did to go the first year post pandemic because I was

902
00:41:16,814 --> 00:41:19,935
just sort of curious and it was nice because it was like going To reinvent

903
00:41:19,935 --> 00:41:22,909
from six years prior Which was really great when it was, you know, 40,

904
00:41:22,910 --> 00:41:26,460
000 people versus the hundred and some odd thousand people that it is

905
00:41:26,460 --> 00:41:29,870
now and the craziness of buses and transportation and all the problems.

906
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:31,960
So it, you know, when it's all on YouTube a week or

907
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,300
two later, just catch what I want to watch on YouTube.

908
00:41:35,950 --> 00:41:38,419
Corey: I, I wish I could make those choices.

909
00:41:38,510 --> 00:41:41,110
Justin: Yeah, you know, it's, uh, the decisions you make, you

910
00:41:41,110 --> 00:41:43,910
know, and what you do for a living, uh, drive these things.

911
00:41:44,060 --> 00:41:47,640
So, uh, I'll, I'm hoping Google Next doesn't get too big, uh, too quickly.

912
00:41:48,115 --> 00:41:50,405
But, uh, you know, the next couple of years are supposed to be at Mandalay.

913
00:41:50,405 --> 00:41:52,395
So I'm, I'm excited about that because I, I think it was a

914
00:41:52,395 --> 00:41:54,575
good conference and excited to see what they do going forward.

915
00:41:54,595 --> 00:41:57,954
But, uh, if I have to reinvent and to do all that mess when not,

916
00:41:57,974 --> 00:42:01,195
not being my primary cloud provider, I'm going to watch from afar.

917
00:42:01,415 --> 00:42:02,345
I think that's the right answer.

918
00:42:02,785 --> 00:42:03,155
Corey: Yeah.

919
00:42:03,165 --> 00:42:05,435
I keep forgetting sometimes that you can't love companies.

920
00:42:05,845 --> 00:42:06,835
They'll never love you back.

921
00:42:07,735 --> 00:42:10,795
I want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today.

922
00:42:10,805 --> 00:42:12,015
If people want to learn more, where's the

923
00:42:12,015 --> 00:42:13,505
best place for them to find you these days?

924
00:42:13,805 --> 00:42:14,095
Justin: Yeah.

925
00:42:14,095 --> 00:42:18,735
So, uh, we're dropping a weekly episode, uh, of the CloudPod at the cloudpod.

926
00:42:18,755 --> 00:42:21,065
net where we cover all three cloud providers.

927
00:42:21,085 --> 00:42:22,564
Plus we make fun of Oracle occasionally.

928
00:42:22,564 --> 00:42:22,794
Cause.

929
00:42:23,155 --> 00:42:25,875
You know, if anyone deserves to be punched down at, it's Oracle all the time.

930
00:42:26,405 --> 00:42:29,215
Corey: We talk about cloud providers, and Oracle is kind of a great tagline.

931
00:42:29,355 --> 00:42:30,065
Justin: Yeah, exactly.

932
00:42:30,945 --> 00:42:33,164
So, yeah, we're there every week, uh, talking about the news.

933
00:42:33,195 --> 00:42:34,975
You know, we, uh, try to talk about why you actually

934
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might want to use this, this crap they're announcing.

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Getting more and more difficult with some of the AI announcements,

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admittedly, but, uh, you know, that's what we're doing every week.

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And then, of course, I'm on Twitter and the

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Mastodons and all the places, uh, at jbroadly.

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You can find me pretty quickly with a simple search.

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So, love to, uh, connect with the audience and, uh,

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hear more about what you guys are doing in the cloud.

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Corey: We will put a link to that in the show notes.

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Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me.

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I appreciate it.

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Yeah, thanks

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Justin: Corey.

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Corey: Justin Broli, SVP of Cloud Engineering and Operations at Blackline.

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I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud.

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If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a 5

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00:43:09,425 --> 00:43:11,585
star review on your podcast platform of choice.

951
00:43:11,845 --> 00:43:14,225
Whereas if you hated this podcast, please leave a

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00:43:14,225 --> 00:43:16,735
5 star review on your podcast platform of choice.

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00:43:17,030 --> 00:43:20,310
And, be sure to leave an angry, insulting comment making sure whether

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00:43:20,330 --> 00:43:24,690
it is AWS security complaining about my Google reference, or Azure

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00:43:24,700 --> 00:43:27,469
security complaining about how great the crayons you're eating for lunch

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taste, uh, and which one of those you are in that insulting comment.