Sarah Charipar

Show Notes

Intro: Should Boz become a band manager?
Let Me Run This By You: When you ASSUME.
Interview: We talk to Sarah Charipar about playing old ladies when you're barely an adult.

FULL TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1: (00:08)
I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez and I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

Before we begin this episode? Just a little note to say there were some audio problems with this. I did the best I could fixing it up. The content is still good, but you know, sometimes things work out that way. Mercury was in retrograde or something. I'm sure. Anyway, enjoy.

Speaker 2: (00:47)
Hi. How you doing? How you doing, babe?

I stayed up pretty late. You did. Okay. I have these neighbors. Do you know? Oh my God though, that gives me flashbacks. Um, no, no, I have these neighbors, right. I adore them. Okay. They are young, you know, mid, late twenties in a band that I adore and they're trying to get me to be their manager. I don't think that's a great idea just because I don't know how to manage bands. And I am trying to work on my own career, but, but I did give them some feedback, like about how to go about their there's a great band, great kids, you know, kids 20, 27. Yeah. But still kids to me. And, um, anyway, we stayed on the w we have balconies next to each other. So we just sat out there talking while miles, miles was as long asleep at like seven, but I stayed up until nine.

Speaker 2: (01:48)
So that's late for me. Oh my gosh. I thought all this was building up to like, you stayed up till three in the morning. You got two hours of 7:00 PM. 7:00 PM. Well, he gets up at four. So, um, he goes to bed. No, I shouldn't say last night he did go to bed a little earlier, but usually it's about eight 30, eight, eight 30. It's really quite does he get up at four? Because like, that's his natural body. He likes to do that. He does his burpees. He's Mr. Kind of healthy. He does all this workout stuff and I'm just jealous. That's the reason you didn't see it. But I did like a dismissive hand gestures only because I'm jealous. That's the only reason. So, so he, so anyway, his people were farmers that's. I mean, that's what they say. Like people who are night owls probably have ancestors who were on the night watch, you know, caveman style and people who just a mosquito and people who are early risers were, I mean, I've heard, Oh, I like that. Then that I like that. That means my dad was on the Nightwatch and, uh, or just very

Speaker 3: (03:00)
Depressed and couldn't go to sleep, but, or I'm going to choose the nightmare.

Speaker 4: (03:08)
Let me run this by you.

Speaker 5: (03:15)
I recently called to tell you about, uh, a experience I had with a friend of mine, who I felt like didn't like something I had suggested to them and wasn't responding to my text message and it's, I wasn't, uh, freaked out about it. That's a step forward. And I wasn't even very worried about it, but I thought, okay, well I suggested something to this person. They didn't write me back. My assumption was that they thought it was a terrible idea and didn't want to have any part of it. And I was completely wrong because I had another conversation with this person yesterday. And like, and of course they reason they didn't write me back was completely

Speaker 3: (03:56)
Had nothing to do logical. Right. And this is

Speaker 5: (03:59)
So lesson that I can't seem to grasp that. Like my first inclination is always to say, they're mad at me. I did something wrong.

Speaker 3: (04:13)
Sure. How do I get out of that? I don't know. It's the same. So I think I have the exact same thing. Mine goes mine. It's my first instinct. And I think it's practice of look, actually what I think it is is if you go to that first thing first, which you probably, I probably will, and you probably will, the rest of your life. It's just, just part of the DNA. All right. But the process of working through it right. And getting to the point of being like acceptance of, okay. So if they are mad, okay. So if they are, they hate my guts. Okay. What then, what am I going to, how am I going to take care of myself? If this person is upset or who doesn't want to be my friend or whatever, I think that's the real, um, when of the thing is working through, working with ourselves through that process is the process versus, you know what I'm saying? Like that's the reason it comes up is to, to be worked through and not necessarily that the first instinct will go away because I don't think it will. I just think that's the way we're wired. At least I know that's the way I'm wired. And I think I it's practice of working through so that it becomes less of a whole situation. Um, and more of a, Oh yeah, I did that thing again. Okay. Well, how can I work with myself? Okay. So let me talk it through with somebody, let me, but I, you know,

Speaker 5: (05:48)
Bernie in that, and I have, I guess now that we're talking about, I guess I have come some, what of a way? I mean, cause it used to just be that I would immediately respond to that person and say like, I'm sorry, I take it back. Or, or like, I know that I know you hate me now.

Speaker 3: (06:05)
Just start crying profusely, get on the phone and say, I'm sorry, I'm so terrible. Um, and please forgive me. Yeah. Like you said, it was a, be a whole play, a drama

Speaker 5: (06:18)
And then DBT, uh, I think it was in DBT, but anyway, as a therapist, I would always encourage my clients to check the facts about something, you know, because feelings aren't facts and you know, just because even if you have, even if this person really doesn't care for you, that doesn't mean that every interaction you have you're, you're doing something wrong. You're, you know, you should be put up on the cross.

Speaker 3: (06:40)
Yeah. It's just ownership of self. And of, I think it really, for me comes down to this core, core, deep, deep belief that I deserve to have my feelings. I deserve to have opinions about things. Um, I deserve to take, um, to take initiative on ideas and even if they're shot down or even if people think it's the stupidest idea in the world, I deserve to throw things out there and see, and you know, it's, it's a deep, deep core situation for me. Yeah.

Speaker 5: (07:14)
Yeah. It is. And, and I think I I'm really learning. It's there's a big part of it. That's generational too. I mean, you know, when we talk to younger people, they seem a lot less burdened by, I mean maybe sometimes going in the opposite direction. So that was the other thing I was just going to ask you about is now that you've been teaching at DePaul for a minute.

Speaker 3: (07:37)
Well, now I'm done. It's crazy. Well, I'm not done. I'm done, but yeah, it has been quite the journey. So they're just like us in some ways. It is amazing. So I had 13 individual one-on-ones with these students, um, at 10 minutes each. So I offered one-on-ones because they really wanted that. And they too

Speaker 5: (08:06)
Knew like her feedback about their

Speaker 3: (08:09)
Like, to do like therapy. Let's just be honest because they're struggling. And it was my suggestion. It turned into not therapy, but it did turn into a lot of coaching. Let's just say, but they're struggling just like we were, even though there's I would say, yeah, I would say a good 13 out of 24, right. Or 12 out of 24 half are struggling with the exact same thing. I don't have a rep. Other people have reps. Now they get reps before school ends because they they'd been auditioning for, um, agents, um, on zoom. They had like a class where they bring agents in. So half that sets up a dynamic where half the people now have reps and half don't. So the people that don't have acting reps obviously wanted to meet with me partially to say, how do I get a rep? And I'm like, listen, it takes time. You'll find your people. Let me, I, and I offered to help with, I say, send me your showcase link when you have it, your part, your monologue. I will send it to my peeps, but like, it's the same stuff we're dealing. We dealt with. I think they're not quite as quiet about it. Like they're pretty loud about it.

Speaker 5: (09:22)
They don't have their quiet shame that they'd have to wait 25 years to listen to somebody else on a podcast to go, Oh, I shouldn't have been ashamed about that at all. Everybody was feeling the same thing.

Speaker 3: (09:30)
Yeah. That they're loud, they're vocal about their issues. So that actually makes it somewhat easier to work with. But it also is. I'm jealous, you know, that they're able to be so vocal. Um, that brings up a lot. I have a lot of feelings of like man D but then at the root they're just as scared as, as we were, well, a lot of them and just as, um, petrified to fail. And just as a, I think it's just an age thing too. And it's also a competition thing. Like there's a lot of competition and within the school, right. Because you set it up, some have repped, some don't and that sets up this whole dynamic of some of these kids or these young people are going on auditions. And they're not like supposed to, but because it's a zoom world, it's a different situation

Speaker 5: (10:20)
Rule that they're not supposed to, but everybody took advantage of this time. Which of course they did. And I would have thought

Speaker 3: (10:26)
Of course. And so anyway, it has been, it was in very fascinating ride, but what I did find was, you know, after my 13 one-on-ones I was exhausted. Like I had to lay down, it was like 13 mini therapy sessions. And I was like, and then follow up, you know, I I'm sending certain people resources. So, but I do feel like it was, it didn't, it didn't feel, um, I don't feel resentful. I feel like they paid me really well. And this is part of my deal. And also one of my, one of my strong suits, one of my jams is connecting one-on-one and really listening and saying, Hey, like, you know, let's like you said, like, let's look at the facts here. You know, you haven't graduated yet, but you see, it doesn't matter because when you're that age, you feel like there is no time. And now you look, as we get older, I'm like, Oh my God, you had so much time girl.

Speaker 5: (11:23)
But the other day sitting at my rate, waitressing job, talking to this guy who was, you know, he was a good 30 years older than me. I was 20, I think. Um, I think it was like 24 and being like, I'm old, I'm at 24. I started thinking I'm almost 25. And then when you're 25, it's over like every, you have to have everything established by the time you're 25 because who, you know, becomes a person after that. Like, I really thought

Speaker 2: (11:54)
That way. And in part it was because, uh, not because I thought my parents were so emotionally mature because they'd be the first to say, or at least my mom would be the first to say that they weren't, but they own their first house when they were like, they got married at 18, they own their first house right away. Or I guess they rented. But then really soon they own their first house. And that kind of set the bar. Like I felt, I feel like a failure sort of before I even went to school, like, there's no way I'm going to be right. You know, right away. I felt the same. Like I think it's generation. Yeah. I, my parents had their, they didn't have their together emotionally, you know, and, but they definitely own the house and they definitely had job jobs. And, you know, so that, and also the, I guess that speaks to the difference of what kind of, what we culturally value we had.

Speaker 2: (12:47)
There was no room for valuing like personal growth and development at that time. Whereas that that's gotten much more of a stakehold in terms of our societal values and, and hopefully less and less about what you have and what you own and how much money you have. Oh, well, that's interesting. So if you're listening to this and you're, this is your final year of the theater school, it gets better, you know, it gets better and it's already good. Like there's this combination platter of the, the depth of despair that you may be feeling now that'll get better. Um, but also you are doing it. You are doing the career part. The training is part of the career. Everything that comes after that. Yeah. You'll, you'll, you'll build upon. I mean, that's what we've learned during this podcast. Like you build a PA, even if you leave in 10 years, you find yourself, you didn't do anything, thought what you thought you were going to be doing in this final year.

Speaker 6: (13:49)
You are using your skills and what you learned there, and you are applicable everywhere. This is your life, you're living it. And this is the life like it's all of

today on the podcast, we talked to Sarah charper. Sarah is one of those actresses that multiple people that we've talked to have described as a powerhouse. And she really is, and she's on stage and on screen. She's just so connected. She has such a presence. And, um, we talked to her and it was a lovely conversation. And I just she's has this outlook about the pandemic and about life. That's really inspiring. So I'm so glad we got to talk to Sarah charper on I survived theater school. Enjoy

fancy. I, I move your camera so I can see

Speaker 2: (14:52)
Your beautiful face. I want to see the bottom of your beautiful face there you okay. Oh, you're so you're so I know you're not supposed to say this, but Sarah, you, you have you, are you eating?

Speaker 6: (15:05)
What's going on? I I'm it's it's so funny. H I said the same thing. I mean, I, I, I don't. I have, I don't. I mean, yes, yes. I'm yes. I'm you look great. Thank you. Just checking that, you know what I did? I, um, I stopped drinking. It was weird. I mean, I haven't, I have not had any alcohol in like three months and all of a sudden, like I have a chin wall. I mean, just like, I think the puffy goat has gone away. Um, yeah. Regrettably, I guess. I, I it's, it's so nice to see your face and I still feel like such a crumb that I, I just think I had a pandemic stroke that last time, but, um, I'm so happy to see that something terrible had

Speaker 2: (15:47)
Happened. Um, Fred, this passed away.

Speaker 6: (15:50)
Oh, right. That's right. Yeah. One of the mini pandemic suicides. Um, Oh my God. Yeah. So sorry. Um, but this was super fun, but this is fun. What a. I am Jen before. So before I forget, you have to send me your address because I have something for you that I've had for over a year. And now I feel bad, Gina, because I don't have something for you, but I don't know what to get you, but I do. I'll share it. I do have something for you, Jen, that I've had for a very long time, and you're going to know what it is and when you see it, Oh my God. I can't wait. I can't wait. Well, welcome. And congratulations.

Speaker 2: (16:32)
You survived theater

Speaker 6: (16:33)
School. I did allegedly

Speaker 2: (16:36)
You in actual fact, you survived it and you are. I ha I probably shouldn't be starting this with such a gush, but you, you are such a fantastic actress. I mean, really everything you do now, everything you did in school is fantastic. You are so like deeply connected to everything you do. It's very admirable.

Speaker 6: (17:03)
Thanks. We hear it all the time.

Speaker 2: (17:09)
We've heard it from multiple people on the podcast about how much of a powerhouse or like in the, you know, in the Facebook chat situation, how much of a powerhouse. And I think that's the word that comes to mind when I think of your and your you and your acting is like powerhouse, but connected is also like Gina said, totally connected. And I've seen you, you know, in rooms, running casting sessions, and you're the same way you're connected as a reader. You're connected as a casting associates. So you're,

Speaker 6: (17:39)
You should see me weeping in corners on a regular basis.

Speaker 2: (17:43)
So, um, did you want to be an actor since you were a young lady? Um,

Speaker 6: (17:50)
I think, well, my mother always says th th th th my transformative moment, they took me to go. I grew up in upstate New York. So they took me to the Shaw festival and I saw Cyrano de Bergerac and Cyrano was played by this. I want to say, he'd let her know. His name is Heath Heath Lambert, a very diminutive, um, Canadian actor. Well, I say that only because he played Cyrano, who is such a heroic, huge character. Um, and the one we played Roslyn was so beautiful, but more importantly, her hat was amazing. Like she had one of those pointed princess hats with a gossamer hanging down, which I don't know if you it's like, that's the fabric that looks like fairy dust. And my mom is like she said, Sarah, you just sat at the edge of your seat and didn't breathe the entire time.

Speaker 6: (18:33)
And I still to this day, and I think I might, I think I might've been nine. I still, to this day, remember sitting in that theater, just being like now, granted I was mostly drawn to the fairy dust and the applause, but I, um, I don't think I ever recovered from that moment, but I really, it, it has taken me, um, I'll say I'm, I'm 50 now. I think I've just started to admit that I'm going to be an actor. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't think I ever really wanted to own that. I don't think I ever wanted to, although I just said I was 50, but everyone knows that. Um, uh, I don't think I wanted to own that. So I did a lot of things to kind of be like, Oh, I'm going to be an academic. I'm going to, you know, um, so really what kind of academic did you think you might've studied theater?

Speaker 6: (19:15)
I mean, I got it, got my degree in theater studies and women's studies and religious studies. So really, I just liked studying people and motivation. So it's all the same thing, right? Like, Oh yeah, definitely all the same thing was when it, DePaul, I went to university of Toronto for my undergrad. So, um, they're in there, you know, they're a very rigorous academic school. Um, and it's a totally different than the American system. Like most of your classes are a year long, some are a half year. So it's a really like hardcore, like in some of the colleges they wear robes. It's very, um, not my school, but, um, so yeah, so I, I went there and got a BA in theater in women's studies and, and, um, religious studies, uh, and did have some performance. So that's why I went on to get my masters, um, w where I ended up at DePaul, uh, because I wanted to learn how to act.

Speaker 6: (20:09)
I mean, I knew what I thought was really great theater. And I worked with incredible people that I still haven't had the gift of working with people of that caliber ever again, but I didn't know how the to do anything. I just felt a lot. Yeah. Did you, did you act as a, in high school, did you say, Oh, golly. No, it wasn't. So it's funny. So I went to my high school, I went to a super urban high school and it was connected to the school of the arts, but again, this fight in me, I was like, I'm not going to go to school, the arts, I'm not going to be one of them. Um, and like, you know, I went to high school with Taye Diggs, whose name is Scott. Um, you know, uh, people who ended up having massive careers. And I sort of sat on the periphery. I did, however, was a part of

Speaker 7: (20:48)
An improvisational theater group called awareness theater, which is hilarious. And I think about it now. And we went around and did improv for like, doctors about how to deal with kids with like drug addiction or parental issues. And I think I was remembering the day. I think we actually did a performance at Attica, and I'm not even you. Like, I don't know who led us in these places, but we did these improv's about like, don't do the cocaine, but I want to do the cocaine. And like we got in a van and drove to schools. I mean, I had a little sweatshirt, I loved it so much. I loved it so much.

Speaker 5: (21:18)
So I love that. That's fantastic. So, um, in upstate New York, uh, you went to the shop festival. Did you get, did your parents also take you to Broadway Broadway?

Speaker 7: (21:29)
Um, I believe so. The first Broadway show I saw was the touring company of Annie. So I saw that in Rochester, the first Broadway show I saw was the tap dance kid. I think

Speaker 7: (21:42)
Alfonso, Roberto, the kid, yes. Right. He was the tap dance kid. Um, and you guys are, you're younger than me by a lot, but this was the time too, in my junior high, they had to band taps because in the, in the, um, the musical, there were all these great tap numbers where they had like converse sneakers with taps on the bottom. So everyone had to get taps. So as you can imagine, the halls of my high school were just says, coffin is insane. Those got manned along with the Michael Jackson belts. Cause everyone beat each other with them.

Speaker 5: (22:14)
It was a little aggressive with the spice,

Speaker 7: (22:18)
The ones with the big name, like the one where you could get them personally, not, you know what I mean? We weren't allowed to wear those as anything could be weaponized with a creative mind

Speaker 5: (22:28)
When I was in junior high, I got sent home for wearing, um, what I thought was just a cute little accessory in my hair, a bandana, it wasn't red or blue, but I got sent home because there was a no bandana, uh, gang violence in Sacramento at the time that I was in junior high was like real, real, real high. So, uh, anyway, so, okay. So you, uh, did your MFA at DePaul and, and then when you left or when you graduated, were you debating, staying in Chicago, moving to LA moving to New York?

Speaker 7: (23:06)
No. Um, I I'm realizing now in this pandemic time of reflection, like how much, and I've been thinking so much about this thinking about theater school and stuff. Um, no, I think I was lived with, I think I just lived in fear and waited for permission. So I was waiting for something to tell me where I had to go. Um, and I thought Chicago was a great place to get started. And I, um, I had friends of mine right out of school who had started a company. Um, so we were working together. So that seems like a great little launching pad and then they watched real careers. Um, and, um,

Speaker 6: (23:47)
Was that sad? Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2: (23:50)
Yeah. We were talking to Lee a little bit about it,

Speaker 6: (23:52)
Eric. I was thinking about him this morning. Um, yeah, so they, um, so I, no, I didn't. I mean, I did, did I think that that call was going to come where I was desperately needed elsewhere. Absolutely. But, um, shockingly, that hasn't arrived yet, but there's time

Speaker 2: (24:09)
Fair to be fair. You have had calls come for different things.

Speaker 6: (24:13)
I have, indeed. I have been very lucky. No, I have been very lucky, um,

Speaker 2: (24:17)
And hardworking. I just want to put that out there, that call comes and then we answer it and we try to show up the best we can and you've done.

Speaker 6: (24:25)
I appreciate that. And I, and I feel like

Speaker 2: (24:27)
Ciao hasn't called yet. Judd, Apatow has not called yet, but that doesn't

Speaker 6: (24:32)
No, and I, it's funny, I have been thinking a lot about, you know, when, when you're ready for things and when you're not. And, um, I don't know if the world is ready, but I kind of feel more ready now than I ever happened. So that's kind of exciting to not feel like your life is over in the midst of all this chaos and breaking down. It's sort of interesting to find, I'm trying to, I'm really trying to silver lining this whole pandemic, so yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: (24:56)
Yes, yes. There is the option. The alternatives are not good. Silver line.

Speaker 6: (25:02)
I know. Right. I mean, don't we all? So, um, yeah, so, no, I, I mean, I wanted to go and I did, I did spend some time in New York. Um, I went with a show, um, I did it, I ended up doing, um, Cuckoo's nest at Steppenwolf, and then we did it in London and then we did it in New York and then the world went to hell in a hand basket and I saw the world trade center fall down. I thought, well, I want to go back to Chicago. So anyway, blah, blah, blah, um, nine 11 Blomberg. Anyway, that happened back to me.

Speaker 2: (25:35)
I have a question. I have a question going back to the, so when you, when you decided, did you decide, um, were, were other schools in the running for you besides DePaul for your MFA?

Speaker 6: (25:44)
Well, so I had already gone to another program for a year. I went to SUNY Binghamton, um, in Binghamton New York, which is where rod Sterling's from, that gives you an indication. Um, and that program was actually rather astounding. It was run by this guy, gene lesser, God rest, his soul, who I can unequivocally say was a bit of a sociopath, but he was one of the people who started Julliard in the early days. So he was one of those Svengali kind of teachers that could get you to do work. You never thought you had access to, but you were completely dependent on him to do it, which is why he had these weird little acolytes following him around and stuff. So I spent a year kind of being brainwashed by him and then the program crumbled. So then I had to find somewhere, um, the program shut down and it was hell in a hand, basket was just total task. Um, so I left that program and then went through the process of desperately auditioning and, um, you know, when Tish and Julliard and everyone else to get that, but I will say this, this is an amazing story. So I went to New York for the IRDAs

Speaker 7: (26:44)
Or something to audition for DePaul. And, um, at the time I had just been recovering from an illness. All of us ladies are familiar with it, had a horrible UTI. And so I took sulfa and didn't know I was allergic to sulfa. Um, and if you're allergic to sulfa, it does something great. So I went into my audition. I, you not by face was swollen. You came out to here. Like I looked, I looked like a homeless person in the middle of a Chicago winter by that. I mean, my face was completely swollen and disbanded, dark purple when burned and insane. My lips were deformed. Um, I mean, I looked horrified and I remember standing like in this waiting pen room, like it was a dance studio and there are mirrors everywhere. And I was just kind of looking at myself going, are you me?

Speaker 7: (27:33)
And I was like, Oh, okay, here we go. And I went and did my pieces and was like, I remember Jim hostel help was there. And I think John Jenkins and all these people, and I finished my pieces and they're like, do you have any questions? And I just kind of stand there, look at them going seriously. We're not going to talk about that. I've ever been like, just in case any of you are wondering, I don't normally look like this. I'm like, I'm not a supermodel, but this is not what we're normally just to put that out there. Cause like, it was good. You were brave to do that. Oh my like, I mean, I was making children cry in the streets. I mean, I really, but it was just so funny that they didn't even acknowledge. I mean, I get it, but we weren't even politically correct then, but no one said a word and I'm like, we're going to pretend I don't look like a descendant of the elephant man. Okay. But anyway, they took me. I think they felt badly for me.

Speaker 5: (28:20)
No, no. They saw they saw your talent audition.

Speaker 7: (28:26)
I know, I think I know I had this piece. I have no idea of what it's from, but it was about green peppers, like about, do I not like green peppers? And I went to this diatribe. No. As a matter of fact, I hate it. Actually. I really hate it. Everyone else likes green peppers. They think it was highlighted in that it was this theory about grit, which is very close to me cause I tend to get furious about nonsense. Um, and I probably did something tragic, like from Troilus and Cressida. I think I did a Cassandra monologue control. I was impressed. I talk about overblown. Like I'm, I'm going to play a deeply connected sear. Um, but they felt,

Speaker 5: (29:02)
I bet you knocked it out of the park. So you weren't talking about, uh, your earlier experience in having a spin golly type figure. And I, I probably wouldn't go so far as to say the theater school head spin golly types, but we did have, and we talk about on this podcast a lot, you know, people with big personalities people w we, we got, um, labeled in a way by our section in a way. Uh, so I'm curious to know your thoughts about that, about the personalities among the faculty, how you related to it, then how you relate to it now, what

Speaker 2: (29:42)
Your thoughts are.

Speaker 8: (29:42)
Well, so it's interesting, again, like I've been really deliberating about this a lot, you know, cause I wanted to do a good podcast to help you get now I know there's a great at the end, I was in a very different position. You know, I'd already gone to undergrad for four years and I'd already done one year of, of theater training. So I came into it at a different place and it was interesting because, um, temperamentally, I was much more, I felt a greater kinship with, uh, the folks that were getting BFAs and my MFA class. I mean, I really just didn't, it's not that I didn't get along with them. I just didn't. I was in school with a lot. I'll never forget. I was auditioning. I wanted to go to, um, ATC elemental P whatever the Harvard school is and I'll forget it.

Speaker 8: (30:21)
They were audition. They were like, if you want to be a teacher, get the hell out of here. We don't want accuracy. We want to be teachers. We want actors who want to act. And I was like, yes. Um, and not in any way to be disparaging of the folks that were in my class, but I felt like a lot of people were like, this is my backup. I'm going to be a teacher. And I'm like, who's going to want you to teach if you don't actually do this. Right. So, um, there was a little, just a little bit of a disconnect. And I think, I thought I knew everything and I was more than likely a snapback. So I, um, I didn't have the same kind of, Oh my God, this is a whole new world for me. You know, I was 23 and worldly, you know, but I'd already had those aha moments.

Speaker 8: (31:02)
So, and I came out of a really, um, I don't want to say for me, but like a borderline abusive stage. I think, I mean, I think this teacher I had before was actually a predator. And I say this now, cause he's dead. Although I should say it out loud when he was alive, I think he was a predator. So, um, I came out of a very intense environment into something where I remember sitting with Jamal's to Hoff all the time and he'd be like, Sarah, I just feel like you want me to yell at you. And I was like, yes. And then I had a little PTSD. I was like, no, one's mean enough. No, one's hard enough. Um, and I was constantly asking for more in gym and it's funny. Cause like everyone was like Jim Austin, Hoff crusty guy. And I'm like, I want more crust.

Speaker 8: (31:39)
I um, and I think I was very much a victim of one of those people that convinced myself that it didn't hurt. And I wasn't an excruciating pain all the time. I wasn't doing enough. Um, and if people didn't tell me how much I sucked, then they thought I couldn't be better. And so I really had, I was stuck with that feeling for a very long time in DePaul, like, Oh, I guess this is as good as I'm gonna get. Cause no one seems to tell me what I need to fix. And again, no one can, no one can fix me other than me. Uh, but I think I a very much, um, I think it goes into the whole permission thing that I was really looking for someone to tell me what was wrong and tell me I was going to be okay and tell me I was gonna make it. And that I was one of the chosen ones so that I could go out and take chances, which I think is the biggest problem with theater school in general. But that's a customer question.

Speaker 2: (32:26)
It's interesting because we do have a lot of you're the first person that I've really is struck me as saying like I needed more crust, I wanted more crust. I needed that for whatever reason. And it's, there's no judgment on, but um, there

Speaker 5: (32:40)
Are those people and I think it's also the Julliard method. That kind of method of, you know, unless it hurts, you're not, you're not growing and you know, to be fair, there's something about that that works like when I'm in pain is when I make changes in my life. It's just that, uh, you seem a little, like you were a little more ready to make changes. I was just trying to figure out what's happening.

Speaker 8: (33:00)
Well, totally. I was in a different place. I mean, I had, I'd already left home. I lived, you know, in a university of Toronto, it's a totally different than the American system. Like you live on your own, you live in co-op housing. There's no doubt. I mean like I had already sort of lived a pseudo, I mean a wildly protected pseudo adult life for five years. So I wasn't in the same place of like, Holy crap, I get to smoke cigarettes in front of teachers. You know what I mean? Like I, uh, so I just, um, but again, like, I, I still very much, I mean, it's not a level of maturity that I'm, I'm super proud of because I still very much was desperately seeking for someone to say, Sarah, you can live the life you want to live. You can be who you want to be. And it's not about which role you get here. Cause it's, you know, that world is also as the three of us don't we, we were never fricking algae news. What the hell was I doing? Doing shows and theater school.

Speaker 5: (33:52)
Right, right. Yeah. So you, you are w when you talk about waiting for permission and, and being scared, um, that ties into something that boss and I talk about all the time, and we talked about it earlier today. Uh, those of us who, whose parent whose mothers were in the sixties generation of feminism, um, really experienced, horrible, horrible things. And so their impression that they taught to us and that became our impression is that it was all fixed and it was all better. And feminism worked and patriarchy was over, which is obviously less laughable,

Speaker 8: (34:43)
Just look at TV.

Speaker 5: (34:44)
Yeah, exactly. But we, I feel envious of young women growing up now, even at, even though they can still be in a patriarchal context, they can still be oppressed by somebody no longer. Is there just such a dearth of information about what, how it could be, or maybe even how it should be. Um, do you ever feel that envy wishing that you had been raised with, or maybe you were raised with a strong feminist bent? I don't know.

Speaker 8: (35:19)
Uh, well for sure, like I was raised in a tremendous matriarchy. I mean, everyone jokes, my, my late father, like my friends who, like, he just was a husk and a corner, which he wasn't, but like we just, I come from not surprisingly generations of really dominant women. Um, but I also, um, you know, my mother is the kind of woman she was getting her master's degree, worked a full-time job and raised two children and did everything all at the same time. So my mom didn't have time to about. I mean, so my parents were political and social idealists and they, they actually met in Chicago is this part of this Catholic youth, um, rebel organization. I mean, they were, as far as Catholics can be, but they were really about social justice and change. And so I grew up around all of that.

Speaker 8: (36:04)
Um, but I also think at a certain point, like what's funny is I, I noticed this particular last year at the beginning of the pandemic when things got cuckoo and, um, so many issues, so many social issues came to light. I realized how old and out of touch I was. Do you know what I mean? Like I had, I had lived this whole period thinking I am so enlightened. And then all of a sudden I was teaching these students and I was like, Laura. And I like literally vomiting on my own words and terrified of saying the wrong thing and not understanding, um, social codes anymore and thought, but I'm a good person. You know, I went through all that white guilt and fear and doubt. And so, um, yes, I, I, I, well, envious of these women, I'm, I'm envious for the time that they have.

Speaker 8: (36:48)
I'll say that I'm really envious of the time. And I try very much not to squander the time I have worrying about what I did with the time I wasted. Um, but I, uh, you get your lessons when you get them, I guess. Uh, but I think it's a really complicated place that people are in, but I'm very encouraged. And I was having this discussion recently with friends of mine, talking about the movies we grew up with. And again, like I thought me and my girlfriends, like nine years old going to see like nine to five or like we just thought we were a little budding feminists. And then I go back and I look at 16 candles and I'm like, I was obsessed with rape movies. You know what I mean? Like, um, coming, having those awakening moments of realizing I'm brainwashed too, um, or realizing that women cease to exist past 40.

Speaker 8: (37:32)
You know, when, when I was reading an interview with Reese, with this one recently where she was like, stop time up, Oh, this is a picture of me on set, playing Adam Sandler's mother. You know what I mean? Or like that new shell manque, that's out like Amanda, Seyfried's playing what's her butt's wife. And she's 78 years younger than him. And in real life, his wife was the same, you know, like just this horse shittery where like who's controlling the narrative of who women are is just especially as someone who's like, Oh wait, here I am, I'm 50. I'm ready to go. Now I'm like, well, I have to write it because you know what? These men are terrified to know that we exist.

Speaker 2: (38:08)
Right. That's absolutely true. And I, I just think, yeah, so that speaks of that thing of like, um, right. I don't know if you guys feel this, but it's like, I came of age thinking I was a feminist and that, that we, everything was possible that I was crushed right by the system. And now I'm coming of age again saying, and I am, I am, I wish I have this on this podcast all the time where I'm listening. I'm like, man, I wish I knew this when I was 18. And there's that thing where they say, you can't know what, you know, until you know it, but I hate that because I just, if I was armed with this, I listened to the stories of people that come on the podcast that are like, you know, I told so-and-so to F off that I was going to play this part or that, and I'm like, I wish I had had that, but you're right.

Speaker 2: (38:50)
You'd get, you'd get the lessons when you get them. But it sounds like you were able, there just seems to be a sense then about yourself, that when you were at the theater school, that you were able to step into your own, which is why you probably seemed so connected and were, was, was a good actor. And the rest of us were not terrible actors, but I can tell you, it wasn't that I was a terrible actor, is that I had no clue what was going on. You had a clue of what was going on, which is why your work probably seemed so connected because you knew

Speaker 7: (39:18)
I, maybe I just, I just had more of a chance to know who I was. And I think so much, I think so much of it. And again, like I think about Slack because I teach acting now and I teach at the university level a lot. And, um, I think so much of that environment is about a, tell me I can do this as there's a whole body of people that are gonna tell you just, just between you and me just to make it, am I going to make it like that feeling all the time of thinking someone can actually bestow your life upon you. Um, and then having someone to like, who are you? Who are, who am I do? Can you tell me who I am? And here I am going to school. And yes, I had, I had a pretty, I had a more, um, secure sense of self because I was older just by virtue of years.

Speaker 7: (39:58)
Um, and I w I was fortunate to be exposed to a lot of things in a very unique way, I think. Um, but still I went into theater school and I played old ladies, my entire career. I played old women. I played grandmothers and old women and the fat ferry. And then I got out of school and I played hookers for 20 years. Do you know what I mean? Like we, there's no sense of what, so theater school doesn't really help you find a truth. And that the hilarious irony is like, you get to be your senior year and you got to do the showcase, which is going to make or break your whole life. And they're like, how are you going to market yourself? And I'm like, are you kidding me? I have no idea of who I am, because I've been running around playing.

Speaker 7: (40:43)
I played women in theater school that I'm still too young to audition for. So it, it, it, it you up in terms of trying to figure out some way of being authentic and you know, how it is to, it's funny, I'm sure John, you saw it too. You know, our, our dear friend, Nick Whitcomb wrote something recently about like theater and what does theater mean? And I'm thinking, you know, gone are the days where we're all sitting around. I mean, hopefully not forever. We have to reimagine them, but like, I don't know how much me playing Cresseta in Troilus and Cressida is going to aluminate today's world. I don't know how much this can of things that we thought were really going to establish us as artists is going to move us forward anyway. And yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2: (41:29)
I also feel like theater never really embraced me as a woman as a,

Speaker 5: (41:34)
As who I am. So I'm, I'm, I don't feel a loyalty to recreate the art form, which other people can, I just never found like my spot there. So when people are like, how are we going to reimagine theater? I'm like, because I, I never

Speaker 8: (41:50)
Theater that I liked in America, to be honest, I was spoiled. I was trained by a bunch of Europeans and undergrad and went, I mean, we went on school trips to Italy and Germany and Sasha, and that's the, still to this day, that theater, I, my favorite theater is Russians and Germans and stuff where it's like, I don't have to speak the language. Like to me, that's theater. I don't know a word you're saying. And I'm riveted. And that's, that's what I've never seen that really recreated here. Um,

Speaker 5: (42:14)
All right, well, gauntlet thrown America. You got to try to impress Sarah. I told boss this earlier, but, um, I just happened yesterday to be looking through the plays in my bookshelf. And, um, I was looking for, uh, to do something specific and I P I picked up a play that I haven't read in a long time called dead man's cell phone. And of course, I was delighted to see your name as having been one of the original, other, other woman, uh, characters. Can you tell us anything about your experience with that play?

Speaker 8: (42:53)
Yeah, that was great. That was super, super funny play. I mean, um, how do I talk about that? You know, it's so, so, so, so Pauli Noonan, um, who play gene and the play is sort of like Sarah rules muse. So it's very interesting to be in a play with the writers muse in there. And Polly's just one of these, she's just an other worldly being she's, she's a magnificent human being and creature, but like indescribable, I just use just this ephemeral sort of creature. Um, uh, and it was, you know, it's always interesting to work on new plays. It was, um, I find it really challenging. It was sort of one of those, and I'm in poly had done the show before. Cause I remember going like, you know, of course I'm trying to make my role really important and grounded. And sometimes, you know, sometimes a pipe is just a pipe, you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 8: (43:40)
So I think there were times where I was beating my head against a wall, trying to make my, to understand every, uh, every bit of minutia I could mind out of it. And, you know, I remember once Paul saying to me, yeah, you know, this part never worked in DC either like that. It's um, Oh, wow. That there were shortcomings, but it was, it was wonder, I mean, it was wonderful, you know, I, um, I never, you know, it's like, I think I went through a period. I was like, I'm going to keep working. And then you don't work for a long time. And you're like, I wish I appreciated those moments more. I mean, it was, it was, it was lovely. It was terrifying. I remember, I, of course I only really remember the moments I went up on my lines and didn't know what's happening and got Jeezy on a rake stage and was terrified. Um, please, anyone directing plays, don't put anyone on rage stage. It's just cruel. Um, especially anyone with anxiety vertigo. Forget it. Yeah. Um,

Speaker 6: (44:36)
You were on a rake stage at the theater school, in the one with the turf. What was that called?

Speaker 8: (44:42)
That was called systemly feelings, which for like six years, I still found AstroTurf in my underwear. Yeah. That

Speaker 6: (44:52)
You

Speaker 8: (44:52)
Were brilliant too. That was brilliantly. That was,

Speaker 6: (44:56)
That was the audition right. Where we had to be funny. Wasn't that the one where

Speaker 8: (45:01)
It was late and it was super funny. Okay. And, and I was thinking that Lee Kirk, this is my cousin Lee Kirk was in it. Sean Gunn was in it. JP Cabrera was in it Alex, but like, I mean, and, and, and, and, and, um, Bradley Walker and that, that play Kendra through. And that, that was, that play was F I was all, yeah, that was my favorite place for sure. That I did. Although, full of calamitous moments of, of utter tear and, and destruction.

Speaker 6: (45:28)
Did you get dizzy on that rake stage too?

Speaker 8: (45:30)
No, I got, I got sculled. I got to horrible things happen in this show. I have to. Okay. So the first one was, there's always a show at the end of like one scene, there's like a coin toss. And then that determines what the next scene is going to be. And we had to run off stage. It was a rainstorm. We had to run back on stage wet. So we got dunked with water off stage and ran back on. And I can't remember, Stan, I'm such a crumb. He was a lovely stage manager. We had long kind of Auburn hair and he was just adorable.

Speaker 6: (46:00)
Oh, yes. It'll come to me.

Speaker 8: (46:07)
Yeah. Reddish hair you're with me. Okay,

Speaker 6: (46:12)
Lovely.

Speaker 8: (46:12)
So I remember, um, he had told the, the, the kids, I say kids, because what other, th th th the kids working crew, um, make sure you put relief, um, warm water in, at the top of the act, put hot water in the bucket at the top of the app so that when we dunk them in water, they, um, aren't freezing. And, um, Oh no, whoever, uh, neglected to do this. So did it at the end of the act. And I ran off stage and literally had a giant bucket of scalding water poured on top of me. And I had to run immediately back on stage and finish a scene that was alarming.

Speaker 6: (46:51)
Oh, that's horrible. And how far along were you on?

Speaker 8: (46:55)
I was on stage then for another few minutes. And then we did the coin toss, but I just looked at Kendra and like, you're doing the next scene. I was like, this is not because I couldn't go. I was like hyperventilating. I'm like, I can't, I mean, it's like burn cream in my hair line. And then I had, like, I had like a scene or two to recover, and then I had to go back on, but that, because it was like the potential to do like eight different plays or whatever, the way that play was set up. Um, but that wasn't the most terrifying moment. I will, the most terrifying thing that happened that show. So there was a whole big picnic scene. We were all, I remember this all on that Hill. And Gus thing is about the extra guy. I think it was Bradley's an extra guy shows up.

Speaker 8: (47:31)
So we were one short we're, one short of everything. And all of the dialogue in that scene revolves around the one shortness, and God it. If I didn't open that picnic basket and it was empty, there was like a napkin and two plates. And I'll never forget this. I was thinking of Lee. Cause like I was really, I was really tight with those guys at the time and, and I was running the picnic. So all the dialogue was motivated by me, motivated by prompts about the things and about the lack of things. And I remember opening it up and looking at it being like, there's nothing in here. And this is that the reskin, like there's people out there. And I turned to Sean, Sean Gunn, he was playing my boyfriend Steph, and I'm like, Stafford, could you go to the car and see if there's a bank in the County?

Speaker 8: (48:23)
And I just remember looking over it and seeing Lee Kerr, cause he could tell him he just went and put his hands behind his head and lean back. Like I can't wait to see how Sarah gets out of this one. I'll never forget that. It was so funny. I mean, it was like the most panicked and we just had to basically make up the entire like, and then I remember seeing that same stage manager whip off his headset go poking around, trying to find, and then like, you know, three minutes later Sean comes walking out. I was like, Oh, is this what you're looking for? I'm like, Oh, was super,

Speaker 5: (48:49)
Thank you so much. Oh wow.

Speaker 8: (48:53)
Like I think of that moments where I'm like, Oh God, what if? And I'm like, I already dealt with a big one, if that's fine. And it was true. It was horrifying. Horrifying. Yeah.

Speaker 5: (49:03)
So, um, I, we have never talked in this podcast about this, but um, recently I was thinking about the actor's nightmare and what you experienced was, was a nightmare. But what we're typically referring to when we say the actor's nightmare is the dream you have that you're and there's variations on it, but like you're supposed to go on stage and you don't know any of your lines or you can't, for some reason you can't get all the way on stage. And I don't know why it took me so long because I would have the stream for the 25 years. I had never acted. Um, so it took me all this time to, to link the way that that is just tied to your own life and your feeling of like being an imposter or you're feeling that you're ill prepared. And I'm just wondering if you guys still have dreams like that.

Speaker 5: (49:56)
I have the same dream. I have the dream where, where I, I finally got to the point of the dream where I say, it in the dream. I'm just going to make the up. Because before I would try to cram cram, cram and lobby backstage and finding someone's script with the highlighted script and like I'm crying. And then finally about a month ago I had one where I was like, you know what, this. I'm going to make this up. And it was so my God I'm so inspired. Go back to the scary dream. Me too,

Speaker 2: (50:29)
Just, I said, it. I'm going to make it up. I can't go through this anymore. I can't go through this. Like I literally would. My dream was like, I took control because I had him all the time.

Speaker 8: (50:38)
I just had that. I'm not no word of a lie last week where I was like, can I just borrow? Like, and it was like the Shakespeare style where they just had their lie. And I was like, maybe that'll just, Oh, I have that dream. And I never have pants on, or I'm always missing either assertive. I find always like trying to take some kind of towel and yes,

Speaker 5: (50:58)
Boss that is very encouraging that you had that dream. And I am going to try to like take that in such that if I find myself in the middle of that dream, I might be able to give myself that same advice. But it, I wonder for you, I bet it is really linked to this idea that you're having to write for yourself and which yeah. Which Sarah mentioned, you know, you're, you're saying you, you, now that you are now that you're ready to embrace your greatness, um, and you're maybe not going to find a bunch of roles ready-made, you're going to have to make it for yourself. Are you already,

Speaker 8: (51:36)
Uh, I am eight pages in, I mean, so it's funny. I've been, I, um, like I said, I'm trying to use my downtime, my, this pen Demi time, um, effectively. And so part of what I'm trying to do is not break myself constantly. So, you know, I got my final draft, I got my ideas and I've had all sorts of interesting things pop up over the past few months. So have I done as much writing as I intended to know, but is it something that I'm thinking about and actively trying to not stop myself from doing every day? Yes. And I think that that's the biggest hurdle I have to get over is like the part of me that thinks, well, I've got to get it right from between here and my fingers. It's got to get right. Then instead of like, maybe I should just bark out some really bad and see what happens.

Speaker 8: (52:18)
Um, and not worry. Cause I tend to stop that. Well, what happens after that? it. I'm done. And shortbread and sourdough. So I, um, I'm trying to get over that hurdle, but I am quite excited and enthusiastic and, and I've had other interesting things. I've had great distractions pop up in the past little bit. So I have sort of like, all right, so I'm going to shelf that and work on. And I'm just really working on, um, not panicking. I'm just realizing, you know, in terms of the dream of like, um, not succumbing to panic and anxiety and fear of what's next and trying to be a bit more present in this weird timeless time. I'm trying to be just a little more mindful and slow.

Speaker 2: (53:01)
Well, you, you see, I gotta be honest. You seem, you seem pretty, you know, knowing, knowing you, you seem pretty much [inaudible]. I know I

Speaker 8: (53:12)
Thank you. I appreciate that. Cause I really have, um, and it's also been hard to do to realize like, wait, I it's, I think part of it leads into that. Like if it doesn't hurt, it's not work, um, trying to surrender to like Sarah, your life doesn't have to be excruciating all the time and you don't have to be miserable or suffering. You can just be, and that's a piece of the work. And so I'm really trying as I sit here watching icicles mouth outside of my house, I'm really trying to appreciate and sit with that time who knows what will happen. And again, like, Ooh, what's going to happen as soon as I have to, but I'm really trying to be okay.

Speaker 2: (53:44)
What did about Cuckoo's nest? Because people are going to ask, how did that come? How, how was that? I mean, that was, that was, that was like a big, huge deal for people that don't know it was Sarah was wasn't Cuckoo's nest.

Speaker 8: (53:58)
It was super easy, pretty fun. Um, although again, not without its challenges. I, um, I auditioned like every other woman between the ages of, you know, 20 and 32 for this little walk on part. Um, and uh, hilariously, it came down to me and this woman, Jennifer Inkstrom, who's a marvelous actress. Um, and we, at the time we're roommates, we work at the same restaurant. We had the same agent and Oh, my Gary Sinise and Terry Kenny could not choose which one of us to cast. So they cast both of us. So we were double cast in a role. And every other night, one of us went on is Sandy. And the other one played the electroshock tech. I. You not. Um, and that's how that run. It was bananas. It makes, I mean, and to this day, people are like, what the?

Speaker 8: (54:52)
It was really weird. And I don't really understand what transpired behind the scenes at the end of the day. I think it was a wildly unfair thing to do to Jennifer and I, because for years it really, really with our friendship, especially when I ended up going to Broadway and she did, and it was really unfair. Not that it's going to come back and bite me in the. It was a really unfair situation to put us in, um, horribly. So, um, especially when they're like, so Sarah, when are you leaving Broadway? When's Jen coming. And I'm like, this is up to me. I mean, it was really, really weird night anyway, but it was marvelous and wonderful. And I was very lucky to do a number of shows at Steppenwolf and, um, work with just astoundingly, uh, generous people and not realize it at the time.

Speaker 8: (55:35)
I just thought, I don't think I, you know, some youth is wasted on the young. I didn't realize how great it was. Um, but it was awesome. I mean, I, I looked out in the audience one night and Paul Newman was looking at me and I was like, that's Paul Newman. I mean, it was just, it was banana cakes. It was, it was, it was, it was wonderful. And it was a, a really fun show. And, um, I can't believe it was, you know, 20 years ago that it closed. Um, but it was a, it was a good time. It was a good time. Yeah.

Speaker 2: (56:02)
I got, I got, who played, who played first ratchet.

Speaker 8: (56:05)
Amy Morton. Oh, nice. Amy Morton. Um, yeah, we had a,

Speaker 2: (56:12)
Okay. I just love that. I love the stories about people. I know.

Speaker 8: (56:16)
Oh, it was super fun. I got paid to make out with Gary. Like it was like,

Speaker 2: (56:22)
You know, yeah. And you, you know,

Speaker 5: (56:24)
We, we, when the, by the time this is all over, you may be part of a bygone era of Broadway. I mean, I was just having this discussion with a bunch of theater people last night. Is it going to come back? Is it going to be, I mean, the whole model, the whole financial model of it, it was so unsustainable, um, with packed houses and, you know, charging $400 a ticket. I can't imagine trying to make this work with any type of social distancing protocols.

Speaker 8: (56:53)
Yeah. And who the hell are they going to put in those seats to fill? I mean, like, who's going to be on Broadway. Do you know what I mean? Like gone are the actors not to be a Dick, but you know,

Speaker 5: (57:05)
No, no, it's totally true. I, they interesting. So speaking of plays, um, probably my most memorable theater school watching experience was raised in captivity. Oh my God. And, and, uh, it made me, it made me a Nicky silver fan. Yes. I mean, that play is so funny. And I have the experience of watching it, that I was laughing so hard and so loud and people around me were laughing too, but I felt like, no, no, you don't. This is the most brilliant thing I've ever heard. John Gunn trying to say, I'm working with the baby, I'm teaching the baby. It's the baby's about to walk. Oh, such a great play. It was Nick directed that, right? Yeah. Do you remember that experience? I wasn't in it myself,

Speaker 8: (58:09)
Laughing in the audience. I wasn't in it.

Speaker 5: (58:12)
I've been telling myself you were in my favorite play at the theater school. Maybe I'm combining two plays. Did you do another Nikki that you were in you?

Speaker 8: (58:22)
I mean, I could be hallucinating. No, I cause Susan Bennett, PJ powers, um, was Juliette and that like I wait, was there someone that wasn't that on it?

Speaker 5: (58:33)
Wait in a Tutu.

Speaker 8: (58:35)
It's not about being passed around like a, like a, like a candy dish of nuts or something like there's I remember that, that awesome.

Speaker 5: (58:42)
Maybe we're thinking of a different name of the prompt. Maybe they did to Batman and skirts. Did you do any Nicky silver plays at the theater school? No,

Speaker 8: (58:50)
That's with Nicky silver too, because I love language play. Like I just, I, um,

Speaker 5: (58:55)
No, this is the problem

Speaker 8: (58:59)
That I wasn't in that show. Cause I was like, Oh, better to do Nicky silver then. Yeah. I mean, I was like, I grumbled, I think I was doing some Irish play at the time about, I don't know if I did some Declan.

Speaker 5: (59:10)
It's so funny. I believe I've used this to disparate things into one flatter.

Speaker 8: (59:17)
I thought it was me. Cause that play was awesome. And I, I can see

Speaker 7: (59:22)
Myself in that classroom watching it and just being gobsmacked. It was like, you know,

Speaker 6: (59:27)
Two little flats and like a light bulb on the floor. Maybe we were sitting next to each other. And I remember, okay. So I'll, I'll

Speaker 2: (59:36)
Share with everybody that, um, we are doing a part two with Sarah Shera par because, because my audio unfortunately lost. Yeah. So, so I went back and I just listened to the part where you can only hear you and I talking to, to remind us what we were talking about, but I just being transparent about it. The audience, I mean the audio quality will never sound the same. So if you're listening to this, well, yes, it was recorded in two separate days, but I'm going to do my best to bring us back to the point in the conversation that we were at when we were so rudely interrupted by squad cast. So, um, w we were, we were talking about the shows you did, and you were talking about a show that you did with Joe slowish. Um, and then, uh, a story that I loved talking about the show you did, where you had to be CA you were wearing a beautiful gown, I think. And you had to be carrying Helen of Troy, Helen of Troy. Yeah. Tell us that story.

Speaker 7: (01:00:37)
I just remember being devastated cause David decimal shin had to carry me and I was like, Oh my God, he's going to know how fast, I mean, you know,

Speaker 6: (01:00:47)
Like I,

Speaker 7: (01:00:48)
I mean, I had such a crush on him. Um, hi David, uh, as did everyone as did everyone now. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6: (01:00:55)
Me and it precluded you.

Speaker 2: (01:00:58)
What we were talking about is how it precluded you and things like that, or can so easily preclude us from focusing on the thing that would actually make the memory good. And the experience enjoyable. Like I'm on stage at a beautiful venerated Chicago theater, and I am getting to play this amazing part and I'm getting to do something that I love instead. We're, we're focused on the thing that you worry about what you ate last night.

Speaker 7: (01:01:26)
It's not really being in the moment. That's not being in the essential moment there that's not the Colonel one wants to clean to, for sure.

Speaker 2: (01:01:34)
Definitely not. Definitely. If you were in that position today, how do you think you'd be?

Speaker 6: (01:01:40)
I think regrettably,

Speaker 7: (01:01:44)
Well, yeah, I'm a bit in that position every day. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm very, I, it's funny. I, um, uh, recently in this universe, uh, Oh, I apologize. There's some kind of siren happening. Um, recently in this universe of, um, zoom auditions, uh, has been a really eye-opening and a horrifying experience, but illuminating about certain things. And that is that, Oh, I am now back at a place where I'm have to relearn how to not focus on myself in an audition. Right. So because, um, all of a sudden you can see yourself in the corner can see that little piece and try not to be. So I, I thought mistakenly, um, as of late, I was in this groovy Headspace and I was ready to go and it's all about the work. And then the second I could, I was like, Oh God it.

Speaker 7: (01:02:31)
There you are. And right in front of you, are you and all of your insecurities. Um, and I was, uh, both reassured and disappointed by the fact that I still have the same, the same struggle as a performer to get out of my own way and to get out of my head and stop looking at myself in the moment. And I just had the same experience I had to watch myself. I was on, I saw myself on TV last week and everyone's gathered around the TV and it's like, Ooh, you're on that show. And how exciting. And all I saw were chins. All I saw were, and I remember the day I'm thinking, he looked great. You feel great. You should be confident now, focus on your work. And then I get to watch my work and all I'm all I'm seeing are, wow, that's a really bad sweater. And boy, you know, so it's hard. It's hard to not. Um, I think I focus on it. I try to actively focus on it less. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of like trying to, it's like trying to play a negative intention. I will not, not do.

Speaker 2: (01:03:25)
Right. Right. Right. Well, the, probably the biggest difference though, is that, you know, that you're doing that now and you know, that it robs you of something that's joyful and you're trying, and you, you know, I think having the desire to get to the place where you can like, just live your life and appreciation for it instead of monitoring your life or how other people are appreciating you. Yeah.

Speaker 7: (01:03:45)
Yes. And to appreciate the, I mean, so in a way back to that show, my, my goal doing when I shot that show was like, Sarah, you're going to enjoy this experience. You're not going to go home after three days of shooting going. I don't know what happened because I wasn't there. So do I feel like I was able to do that at least 60% of the time? Yes. Which is a big win, right? Like I was like, I was able to have fun being on set and working and focusing on the work rather than worrying about, are they going to fire me? Am I going to get kicked off? And I didn't lose 40 pounds last week. So that was good. That was good to be able to, what was the show? The, uh, the Chicago fire. Um,

Speaker 2: (01:04:26)
Okay. It's about the it's about the department.

Speaker 7: (01:04:29)
Is it, is the, it is the fire show of America. Yes, it was. Yes. It was really fun. It was actually super good to, and it was super rewarding because I got to work with a student who I, it was his first job on camera. We had our scene together, a female director that I had worked with before, and it was written by a woman and a woman of color. So it was like the most amazing, like I was so

Speaker 2: (01:04:51)
19 year old, you had seen that you would have been like, Whoa, what happens?

Speaker 7: (01:04:55)
It was so excited and happy. And while Chicago fire might not be the pinnacle of the acting I'd like to do, it was, I'm super proud that I was a part of that episode. That was,

Speaker 2: (01:05:04)
And it also sounds like, you know, I sounds like you've made progress in terms of how you're going to be with yourself while you're on set or while you're doing. And that's, for me, I'm like going for progress. Like,

Speaker 3: (01:05:18)
And so it's hearing that is very encouraging to me because it means that we can make progress. We may not. And, and, you know, I've heard people talk like bill Hader, from seminary, live talking about his anxiety and talking about how you may not make friends with your anxiety, but at least, you know how to exist with it in the same room without trying to actively strangle it all the time. Yeah.

Speaker 7: (01:05:39)
A thousand percent, a thousand percent. I mean, I was just talking about this very thing in therapy the other day about like my anxiety hasn't gone away, but I've made space for it where it doesn't overwhelm me. It doesn't consume the moment. It's like, Oh, we're going to be in the room together. Okay. Could you please stay over there for five minutes? And I, um, it is a very different experience is I, and I, you know, back to that, like zoom audition thing, I had a zoom call back the other day, which was of course, very heightened, stressful, blah, blah, blah thing. And the director was intimidating to say the least and difficult to understand. And it was like that exercise of in real time, looking at yourself in this camera, watching them, trying to separate myself from my anxiety, um, and, and participate in the moment without immediately leaping to, um, allowing myself to be triggered by, by, by situations, in a way that normally my anxiety would just take over, um, uh, is a very, and I think so much of it is about, I mean, you go back to like what you learned, but like breathing and taking a minute to be, I'm going to tell you that, that actor, impulse of like, they give you a note and go, yep.

Speaker 7: (01:06:46)
Yep, yep. Got it. Got it. Got it. Instead of being like, hold on, I'm going to take a breath. I'm going to think, and then I'm going to say, yes. You know, like let's forgo the impulse to say yes immediately. Let's take a second. And I, so I think, um, back to the point of learning, yeah. Like my progress is actually I think taking time to actually let myself get to the moment it's like so easy when I'm directing people to say like, don't rush the moment. Don't rush the moment arrive there. I'm trying to just arrive. I'm trying to get my time, my guys all the time to arrive a little more, which is hard. Right.

Speaker 3: (01:07:21)
Did you say it was a student like a DePaul?

Speaker 7: (01:07:24)
Um, he was from U of I U by Chicago. And I taught there, um, for a number of years, I taught like their on-camera their senior year, like prepping them for their showcase on camera class. So I had taught him a number of years ago and it was so he was so lovely and I was so thrilled for him. And he talked about his audition with me and he's like, I taped it with this other guy, Sam, who was in class. And he's like, I kept saying, Sam, Sarah would say, you know, find the texture in it, make it different. Like, so he was like, you got me this job. He's like, you helped me. It was so thrilling. And then I went to the director. I'm like, it's Hayden's first time on camera. Like it was so thrilling. It was so fun. And I, because I was so focused on taking care of him, I wasn't worried about myself. Like it was really like the universe conspired to make sure I got up

Speaker 3: (01:08:05)
Whenever I'm on a, whenever I'm on a plane and I hate to fly and I'm with someone that's more scared than I am next to me. I become the world's greatest flyer. Like we've got this, we got the test. Totally, totally.

Speaker 5: (01:08:20)
That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Love that. So the other thing that we were talking about, um, was the showcase and you had started off by saying, and I think this is a good, this is a good way of saying no, you said, because we've had a lot of we've, we've talked a lot about our audition teacher on camera teacher and we usually bleep per name. Um, and you would, but you had said it in just the loveliest way, which is like, I just wasn't for her, you know, I just wasn't her cup of tea, whatever. Um, so that being said, you did have some interest when you went to LA in the showcases. So tell us about it.

Speaker 7: (01:09:08)
I mean, I, it's funny, I think I might've talked about this before. I'm currently doing the same thing where I'm T I'm teaching, I'm organizing and teaching another school's final class for their showcase. So I'm, I'm dealing with a lot of kids and it's not that I'm playing favorites, but there are a number of them where I'm like, I get it. I know you've been playing 50 your whole life and you're 21. So I feel very close to that moment of what am I going to do to show who I am? I'm like, I have no idea of who I am. I've been everyone's grandmother, my entire career, little dyno for the next 20 years. I'd just play horse. Cause that's what, you know, that's what 25 year old women do. Um, regrettably. But so there was that struggle, right? Like preparing for that, that exit moment.

Speaker 7: (01:09:54)
And then we went to the showcase and we all got a plane and went to LA and bought, you know, the right color blue shirt to make your eyes pop and thought you're going to change your life. And, and I did have, I was fortunate. I did have some interest, but I always felt like anytime I was in any of those rooms, whether it was meeting with agents here in Chicago or, um, doing the showcases in LA, it was this feeling of people looking at me like, huh, what am I going to do with you? Exactly. You know what I mean? So I remember, um, being on the plane, flying back, Chicago, just bawling my eyes out, thinking this is never going to happen. Wow. It was. And I had that reaction. I had that reaction, [inaudible]

Speaker 3: (01:10:40)
Say before, before we so rudely, what I wanted to say is that it is, um, things are stacked against us when we walk in that room. And I think it takes a very, um, special human or a human that is not 22 to say, I am what you want, even though you don't make me, don't know that you want it. I'm going to, it's a lot of work to do that. So it's a lot of work to internally. Do that work to say, no, no, I'm going to walk into a room that may be kind of hostile, but I'm to turn it around

Speaker 5: (01:11:14)
And make, you know, it's hard to do that.

Speaker 7: (01:11:17)
Yes, absolutely. And I always go back to like, why is it that so many models make good TV and film actors? And I don't think it's because they're dumb. And I don't think is because they're just pretty, I think, because they're so used to being like, this is what I look like, take it or leave it. Whereas I spent so many years going, this is what I look like. I'm sorry, this is what I look like, but I'm really good on the inside. And it's like, um,

Speaker 5: (01:11:40)
What if, what if like one major component of theater school could have been simply this like very intense work on radical self-acceptance and like, you know, like even to the exclusion of yoga, let's say even I love to doing yoga. And I think yoga is great, but like the idea being, if, what if we paid, we joke about it now I'm joking about it in a way. But like, what if we actually paid attention since we know that this is what happens and we're not treading any new territory or people in any of these episodes, we're talking about things that haven't been talked about a million times, that probably people have talked about it a million times, but they still need to be talked about because it's still not, it's still not quite synced up in the right way. What if there was a radical shift and people could anticipate that this is a problem.

Speaker 5: (01:12:35)
You, you, you, you said this last time, Sarah, that's one of the parts that we couldn't, it got caught off is that we choose this profession that will definitely not fill up the God-sized hole inside of us. But yet almost to a person who goes into this is somebody who has a God sized hole who is so sort of uniquely sensitive, sensitive is not the right word, but it's the only word I can come up with. Like, so uniquely primed to be destroyed emotionally by something that's going to happen to them in this business. We know this is not an unknown thing. Why can't they actively address that in theater training?

Speaker 7: (01:13:24)
Well, I think because I mean, to be perfectly honest, I think a lot of it is they've got to keep themselves in business, right? You have to believe there is a person in that building. Who's going to tell you your going to make it in order to shuck out 20 grand a year. I mean, I really, part of me really believes this kind of cynically, but I believe like you, I think every one of us to a certain degree, tried to find that teacher that made you feel like you were going to make it, to find that teacher that made you feel like you were enough that you, Oh, wait, it's this weird kind of corner of the room. Am I special? I just need one person to tell me I'm special. Do you know what I mean? And so I think that, um, it is a business and it is an, and who the hell are these people to tell us that we're enough.

Speaker 7: (01:14:08)
And at the end of the day, great, one person going to tell you are enough for that job. And then that job is done. And then what, so yes, I agree with what you're saying that you need to have. There should be a core of radical self acceptance because no job is going to sustain you. No job is going to take you through through enough or God forbid, you know, you're one of the, and I've got several friends that have had amazing careers and had great jobs and they're miserable because they got stuck playing a part, their whole life that wasn't fulfilling for them. You know? So it can't be about the job. It's gotta be about what you want to do in the work. And it is such a weird, um, unlike, and I would say, unlike any other profession, I'm not going to make that grandiose of a statement.

Speaker 7: (01:14:49)
I'm just too stoned to come up with a better word. But, um, you're so vulnerable in this craft because everyone has to give you permission to do it, right? So you are always asking for permission, but at the same time, you're asked to believe in yourself enough to keep going without needing that approval. You know what I mean? It's like this instant, like Jesus Christ when, and which is why, you know, which is why we're so lucky that we have these incredible people now that are creating shows that are unlike anything else. Um, you know, like Mikayla Cole or, Oh God, who's that crazy Australian guy that I love. I can't think of it now. Or you're Hannah, Gadsby's your people where it's like, no one was going to give them a platform before, until they gave themselves their own platform. And now we see these crazy, beautiful, authentic stories, which no one could grant permission to that other than them.

Speaker 7: (01:15:37)
Right. Cause they're singular voices. They're just incredible singular voices. Um, and so I think there's being there's space being made. But when I think of the world, that, that we came up in where it is like, who am I going to play in Midsummer night's dream in which checkoff play am I going to be in, in which you know, for, to make it really re reductive, but like which white man's story do I fit into to, to show that I'm good enough. Cause if I'm not knowledge new and I'm not someone's mother, then I don't have any place in this world. And I think that's how a lot of people end up feeling coming out of theater school or being in theater schools. Like I have no place in this world because of these 20 plays that we're doing in the four years that I'm here.

Speaker 7: (01:16:14)
I don't get to play, I don't get a juicy role, but you know what I'm saying? It just becomes, and that's one thing I didn't realize. It's funny. Cause we were talking a lot about how the past year has really influenced a lot of our thinking. It's like, that's one thing that I've really kind of had an eye-opening experience with like how small my education was in terms of the stories that you think, well, these nice stories we get to tell, so I better fit into them. You know, I think, um, it's been a great, uh, kind of, um, envelope opening or an explosion for us to think more, um, not even inclusively, but just, uh, I mean, not just inclusively, but like in this kind of like we can tell any stories we want. Yeah. You know, and we didn't have that before. I don't think

Speaker 2: (01:16:56)
It never ceases to amaze me that whenever my mind is opened to a new reality that I didn't know existed previously because of my small education and my small, my, you know, specific life. It never ceases to amaze me. Oh, still. I mean, and now I can say in my future, I'm going to have multiple more moments of, Oh, there's this thing I didn't understand about the world and the variety of stories. And then there's, you know, it's like the universe, the multi-verse is infinite. And so is the, um, so is the range of human experience. Yes. And I, I, and I agree that going back to, um, I think, you know, teaching radical self-acceptance is, is key and it, it probably wouldn't do enough, but it would at least start a conversation. And who knows, maybe they're starting it. I don't know. But I, I definitely agree that with that, what I'm seeing in my DePaul students now is that that is so needed in an, in an authentic way to, to, and yet at 22 radically accepted yourself is excrutiatingly hard to do

Speaker 7: (01:18:11)
Well. And it's also, I mean, I don't know, everyone's not the same. Right. But like, did I know who I was in claps when I was 22? I don't know. I mean, do I feel now at, for her, for whatever, do I feel now at 50? Like I'm any different than I was 15? No,

Speaker 6: (01:18:30)
God, this is like,

Speaker 7: (01:18:33)
I'm the same person I'm just accepted it. Right. So, um, I think, I think it is a weird time. I think it is, it is in people developing change and settle into themselves at very, very, very different times. And people have radically different experiences in terms of when they're allowed to accept themselves and let them let them let themselves into the room. Um, but I do think that teaching teaching that you're enough is really important in so much of school in general theater school. Any school is, uh, you know, um, if you go to med school, you take a test and know that you're enough. And in theater school, you don't really have that test, but you're still trying to find out that you're enough. So it is a very weird subjective world where you're still trying to prove yourself. Um, and it is hard to tell people to prove themselves while at the same time, just be you it's really hard. And you're just figuring out what you is, right. I mean,

Speaker 6: (01:19:31)
Sorry about that. Hey, I

Speaker 2: (01:19:34)
Was like, do I have a dog?

Speaker 7: (01:19:36)
Um, Lester is expressing himself as authentic. Um,

Speaker 2: (01:19:41)
So already believes in himself.

Speaker 7: (01:19:44)
He has never lacked ever, never lacked in that department. He knows he's he has seven pounds of me. He is mighty

Speaker 6: (01:19:53)
The last hole.

Speaker 7: (01:19:54)
Um, so you know what I mean? I just, it's, it's just very hard. I think it's, uh, but yeah, you've got to be willing. I, you know, that's the hard thing. It's the willingness you, you are, it is a demanded of you to bring your entire self to the job every single day in a way that other jobs don't ask you to and to ask someone, to learn and train at this and do that and figure out what your pelvic clock is and realize that you've been breathing wrong your entire life and find out what I am at pentameter is, and be your authentic self at 19 is a lot. So it's, it's, it's, it's no, I'm surprised that you're making a podcast now about that time, because it's a really ugly, gross pot stirring, triggering maelstrom of feelings. That was great. That's a great quote. So Sarah, um, where can people find you besides on Chicago fire? Are you on social media? I'm on the social medias. Um, found me sweet Tate, uh, um, Monash, but I am, um, at full lunch cause my mother has a Boston accent and it's a big joke in our family. What are you going to have full lunch

Speaker 1: (01:21:10)
On the social medias? Um, if you liked what you heard today, please rate, review and subscribe seriously. Please do those things. Cause it really helps. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc podcast. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina fleet are the cohost. This episode was produced, edited and sound mix by Gina Felicia. For more information about us, you can find us on social media or through our [e-mail]. Thanks.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?