WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.360 Matt: Nat Miletich, welcome to the WP Minute. 00:00:03.229 --> 00:00:03.620 Nat: Nice. 00:00:03.679 --> 00:00:04.419 Nice to be here. 00:00:04.419 --> 00:00:05.290 Thanks for inviting me 00:00:06.329 --> 00:00:10.260 Matt: I'd like to talk about the challenges of freelancers running 00:00:10.260 --> 00:00:15.919 a boutique agency, the general throes of surviving as a small 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:18.149 business on the web these days. 00:00:18.149 --> 00:00:23.489 But before we get to that, I know you from your consistency and 00:00:23.489 --> 00:00:27.590 your meme god levels on Twitter. 00:00:27.900 --> 00:00:29.120 What's the secret there? 00:00:29.169 --> 00:00:30.990 is that the biggest marketing channel for you? 00:00:31.779 --> 00:00:33.010 Nat: the, no, it's not. 00:00:33.030 --> 00:00:41.129 It's actually probably my third biggest and my first two are SEO and referrals. 00:00:42.470 --> 00:00:43.839 but I love social media. 00:00:43.839 --> 00:00:46.279 It's definitely a great marketing channel. 00:00:46.419 --> 00:00:50.819 I've met a lot of cool people through social media and I've really kind 00:00:50.819 --> 00:00:54.489 of taken my agency to the next level because of social media. 00:00:54.489 --> 00:00:57.929 So I, I owe a lot to it, but I also like to have fun. 00:00:57.929 --> 00:01:00.120 I don't like to keep it all like business on there. 00:01:00.690 --> 00:01:04.319 So like, like it to be a bit more entertaining than that. 00:01:04.375 --> 00:01:06.645 Matt: you're the owner of Clio websites. 00:01:06.645 --> 00:01:09.955 You can find it at C L I O web sites. 00:01:10.675 --> 00:01:11.195 com. 00:01:11.625 --> 00:01:14.715 a leading web design company, specializing in custom websites, WordPress development, 00:01:14.715 --> 00:01:16.455 and SEO challenge you for a little bit. 00:01:16.455 --> 00:01:18.725 I know, we've chatted a bit back and forth on Twitter. 00:01:18.725 --> 00:01:22.755 I think at some point you were, recently you were diving into web flow and you 00:01:22.755 --> 00:01:24.855 kind of liked it, but hold that thought. 00:01:24.855 --> 00:01:26.875 We're going to talk about that in a moment. 00:01:27.165 --> 00:01:28.455 where do you see. 00:01:29.055 --> 00:01:33.155 The biggest challenges, maybe for yourself, for small agencies 00:01:33.195 --> 00:01:37.205 and freelancers who are focused on WordPress headed into 2025. 00:01:37.215 --> 00:01:39.715 Biggest challenges you see headed into 2025. 00:01:41.135 --> 00:01:45.365 Nat: I actually think for WordPress agency specifically, it's sort of 00:01:45.365 --> 00:01:50.315 that fragmentation of like different ways of doing things in WordPress. 00:01:50.935 --> 00:01:54.885 I think that, you know, WordPress as a platform is, you know. 00:01:55.260 --> 00:01:56.290 Solid choice. 00:01:56.290 --> 00:01:58.150 I, we, you know, we keep investing in it. 00:01:58.150 --> 00:01:59.340 I don't think it's going anywhere. 00:02:00.050 --> 00:02:01.600 I think it has a bright future. 00:02:01.830 --> 00:02:04.660 I think the biggest challenge for people, especially new people trying 00:02:04.660 --> 00:02:09.310 to get into things, and I can, I'll provide some feedback and my 00:02:09.310 --> 00:02:11.190 thoughts on that in a minute as well. 00:02:11.310 --> 00:02:15.270 But I find if you're trying to get into this sort of, you 00:02:15.270 --> 00:02:19.280 know, WordPress landscape right now, it's that fragmentation. 00:02:19.825 --> 00:02:23.765 And, you know, because there's like a million ways to make 00:02:23.765 --> 00:02:25.285 a WordPress website, right? 00:02:25.335 --> 00:02:27.025 You can use a page builder. 00:02:27.025 --> 00:02:29.095 You can do a totally custom site. 00:02:29.595 --> 00:02:34.395 You can use Gutenberg, full site editing, you know, and depending on 00:02:34.425 --> 00:02:37.255 which approach you take, it feels like. 00:02:37.740 --> 00:02:43.240 You know, you, you might or might not be setting yourself up for success. 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:43.610 Right. 00:02:43.720 --> 00:02:47.280 so, so I think from my perspective, like in the WordPress specifically in the 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:51.900 WordPress space, that's probably the biggest challenge and the way to overcome 00:02:51.900 --> 00:02:56.960 that challenge is to find something that works for your agency or something 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:58.940 that you enjoy doing as a freelancer. 00:02:59.300 --> 00:02:59.970 If it's a. 00:03:00.380 --> 00:03:01.460 Website builder. 00:03:01.510 --> 00:03:01.930 Great. 00:03:01.970 --> 00:03:03.100 I mean, a page builder. 00:03:03.100 --> 00:03:03.470 Great. 00:03:03.500 --> 00:03:07.560 If it's a custom developed sites, great, but, you know, focus on 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:11.260 one of those, learn it deeply and kind of pursue it, you know, as a 00:03:11.260 --> 00:03:12.810 solution that you offer to everybody. 00:03:14.150 --> 00:03:18.170 Matt: The listener knows that I ran an agency for about a decade, ran it 00:03:18.170 --> 00:03:19.460 with my father still runs it today. 00:03:19.790 --> 00:03:22.780 This goes back, I left the agency when I started having kids 00:03:22.780 --> 00:03:23.830 because I needed to make money. 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:26.450 So, it was about eight years ago. 00:03:26.880 --> 00:03:29.780 Every agency owner knows that, you know, you're a paycheck away from 00:03:30.020 --> 00:03:33.450 bankruptcy when it comes to, you know, clients and stuff like that. 00:03:33.450 --> 00:03:36.340 But, when I started, it was just like, hey, let me cast this 00:03:36.350 --> 00:03:38.140 wide net, let me do anything. 00:03:38.440 --> 00:03:40.720 Anything to get, revenue in the door. 00:03:40.820 --> 00:03:45.040 I'm talking, again, way back, business cards, logo design, like, whatever. 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:46.270 Social media management. 00:03:46.270 --> 00:03:48.150 This was just casting this wide net. 00:03:48.810 --> 00:03:51.410 And I quickly learned, like, okay, I really need to dial in, 00:03:51.410 --> 00:03:54.300 build a team, hyper focused on WordPress, and get specialized. 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:58.630 Which then led me down a path of going, my god, I can't stand the 00:03:58.630 --> 00:04:01.900 web designer who comes in and sells a website for 500 bucks. 00:04:02.660 --> 00:04:03.720 Man, it drives me nuts. 00:04:04.070 --> 00:04:08.740 Do you If you remember those days, 15, 18 years ago, do we, are we 00:04:08.870 --> 00:04:13.130 challenged with that same like entry level competition these days or is 00:04:13.140 --> 00:04:17.070 now our competition like, Oh, our customer can just do it themselves. 00:04:17.300 --> 00:04:20.819 Now we really just have to skip ahead and build them that five to 10, 000 00:04:20.820 --> 00:04:22.050 website straight out of the gate. 00:04:22.715 --> 00:04:23.935 Nat: Yeah, that's a great question. 00:04:23.935 --> 00:04:27.605 And I think it kind of depends on where you are at with your, in your journey. 00:04:28.145 --> 00:04:31.605 I mean, like you said, it's tough, you know, when you're getting started, how 00:04:31.605 --> 00:04:35.195 do you distinguish yourself, especially if you don't have a portfolio, if you 00:04:35.195 --> 00:04:37.985 don't have clients, you don't have referrals, you don't have contacts. 00:04:37.985 --> 00:04:38.245 Right. 00:04:39.065 --> 00:04:42.875 how do you 500 website? 00:04:43.100 --> 00:04:43.360 Right. 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:46.160 That somebody else is going to create, and get clients. 00:04:46.170 --> 00:04:46.780 It's tough. 00:04:46.820 --> 00:04:48.030 I think I'm not going to lie. 00:04:48.030 --> 00:04:51.500 Like I think in the beginning stages, that's probably the biggest challenge. 00:04:51.990 --> 00:04:56.380 one of the mistakes I think I made like early on is the same thing, 00:04:56.390 --> 00:04:58.400 like trying to do everything at once. 00:04:58.780 --> 00:05:01.890 I think there's a real value in niching down. 00:05:02.330 --> 00:05:06.250 Not niching down necessarily like, you know, super niche out of the gate 00:05:06.280 --> 00:05:09.570 because, you know, that's going to be tough as well, but keeping it, 00:05:09.630 --> 00:05:13.790 you know, sort of wide enough that you open yourself up to, you know, 00:05:13.790 --> 00:05:15.910 more opportunities, but then also. 00:05:16.415 --> 00:05:19.614 Not trying to do everything, not trying to do social media, marketing, websites, 00:05:19.615 --> 00:05:25.195 SEO, and you know, all these services may be focusing on, you know, WordPress 00:05:25.195 --> 00:05:29.035 development, let's say, that's still niche enough, you know, something 00:05:29.035 --> 00:05:31.015 that's more hyper niche would be. 00:05:31.405 --> 00:05:35.905 you know, WordPress development for law agencies or something like that, right? 00:05:36.075 --> 00:05:38.445 that's something I probably wouldn't recommend somebody go 00:05:38.445 --> 00:05:40.905 into, sort of as a starting step. 00:05:40.915 --> 00:05:45.275 But keeping it wide enough and still sort of niche enough, you know, finding 00:05:45.275 --> 00:05:50.520 that balance is probably a good way to protect yourself a little bit from from 00:05:50.520 --> 00:05:53.040 those, you know, 500 jobs or whatever. 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:55.750 However, that being said, when you're getting started, you 00:05:55.750 --> 00:05:57.080 do have to start somewhere. 00:05:57.080 --> 00:06:00.800 So, you know, I always tell people I, you know, I'm a part of a 00:06:00.810 --> 00:06:03.620 freelancing community, for example, and that's probably the most common 00:06:03.620 --> 00:06:07.060 question people have is like, you know, how do you get started? 00:06:07.100 --> 00:06:08.730 How do you get those first few clients? 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:13.630 And the reality is you're probably gonna have to make those 500 websites, you know, 00:06:13.650 --> 00:06:17.580 for the first few times in order to build your network and build up your portfolio. 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:18.625 There's nothing wrong with that. 00:06:19.870 --> 00:06:23.650 Matt: One of the first sets of clients that, my father and I ran into 00:06:23.650 --> 00:06:26.780 because he had just a whole bunch of, other professional colleagues that, 00:06:26.820 --> 00:06:29.600 that he knew was a big law firm. 00:06:29.900 --> 00:06:33.320 And I remember sitting in that room and I was only at the time. 00:06:33.555 --> 00:06:36.705 I don't know, early 30s or late 20s at the time. 00:06:36.975 --> 00:06:41.325 And we're like, yeah, we, our proposal started 2, 500. 00:06:43.285 --> 00:06:43.555 Right. 00:06:43.825 --> 00:06:46.715 And then, you know, and I sit in the room and there's like 12 00:06:46.715 --> 00:06:50.235 attorneys and they're looking at me and I'm looking at them and I go. 00:06:50.515 --> 00:06:51.645 Did I say 2, 500? 00:06:52.575 --> 00:06:54.495 I meant 250, 000. 00:06:54.795 --> 00:06:58.685 I want to add a few zeros just looking at you all sitting in this room. 00:06:58.705 --> 00:07:02.865 And that was this quick lesson, you know, that I learned about packaging, 00:07:03.165 --> 00:07:06.045 you know, positioning, having a portfolio that you can lean on 00:07:06.055 --> 00:07:07.505 experience and all this other stuff. 00:07:07.985 --> 00:07:11.345 What I'm seeing today is even with AI, and we'll talk about that in a 00:07:11.345 --> 00:07:15.455 moment and how fast you can rapidly develop with AI and the pros and cons. 00:07:15.845 --> 00:07:17.905 The point I'm making is like this. 00:07:18.430 --> 00:07:22.620 Human connection, I think is still the challenge, like it was a challenge for 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:25.870 me back then because I didn't know what I was getting myself into, I didn't know 00:07:25.870 --> 00:07:30.980 the legal landscape, I couldn't speak to it, and today, human interaction, 00:07:30.980 --> 00:07:35.260 packaging, presentation, experience, I think is going to be that next step. 00:07:35.370 --> 00:07:38.610 You know, five years for boutique agencies and freelancers. 00:07:38.610 --> 00:07:42.430 Like, how can you make this a human level that people are going to 00:07:42.430 --> 00:07:45.960 appreciate, even though they might know you're using AI on the back end? 00:07:46.260 --> 00:07:47.100 is that a fair assessment? 00:07:47.130 --> 00:07:49.150 How do you think about human interaction relationships 00:07:49.255 --> 00:07:49.655 Nat: Yeah. 00:07:50.075 --> 00:07:51.235 No, that's a great question. 00:07:51.435 --> 00:07:55.465 And I've seen that, I've seen those like types of posts on social media before. 00:07:55.465 --> 00:08:01.065 It's like people that use AI tools are going to replace people that don't use 00:08:01.065 --> 00:08:07.485 them versus as opposed to AI is going to replace us making websites, right? 00:08:07.485 --> 00:08:08.865 So there's a distinction there. 00:08:08.865 --> 00:08:12.229 And I believe in that, like, you know, use the AI tools in order to yeah. 00:08:12.580 --> 00:08:15.310 Optimize your workflows a little bit and speed things up. 00:08:15.500 --> 00:08:19.320 but you know, you still that like human interaction and that 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:21.150 customer service is still key. 00:08:21.570 --> 00:08:25.970 I think for people as corny as that sounds, it's like, you know, you 00:08:25.970 --> 00:08:27.820 know, customer service is number one. 00:08:28.210 --> 00:08:32.530 Well, it is actually, you know, it sounds kind of funny, but, you know, we get 00:08:32.530 --> 00:08:36.750 a lot of clients because people either don't deliver what they said they would 00:08:36.760 --> 00:08:41.020 deliver, or they don't deliver fast enough, or they don't do a good enough 00:08:41.020 --> 00:08:42.650 quality sort of product and stuff. 00:08:42.650 --> 00:08:45.500 And so there's something to be said, there for sure. 00:08:45.820 --> 00:08:49.080 And, yeah, I think, I think that humans sort of, yeah. 00:08:49.705 --> 00:08:54.435 interaction is key, not just for, you know, taking care of your current 00:08:54.435 --> 00:08:57.215 clients, but also, getting new clients. 00:08:57.215 --> 00:08:59.725 So, you know, that personal touch is gone. 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:04.130 now you get like, you know, how many like newsletter or like sales 00:09:04.160 --> 00:09:05.760 pitch emails do you get per day? 00:09:05.760 --> 00:09:06.020 Right. 00:09:06.020 --> 00:09:08.720 And they're all like generic and you can tell like nobody, it's 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:10.000 like an AI thing or whatever. 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:14.710 Somebody automated it, you know, what, you know, people are missing out on 00:09:15.490 --> 00:09:19.270 these days is, you know, especially when they're looking at client acquisition 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:20.660 is that personal touch, like you said. 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:22.750 So, for example, the things that do work. 00:09:23.095 --> 00:09:27.685 that work on me as a business owner, but also that work if you're trying to get 00:09:27.685 --> 00:09:30.045 clients is something personalized, right? 00:09:30.045 --> 00:09:33.985 Like, so you look at their website, you say, okay, this needs to be improved. 00:09:34.285 --> 00:09:38.425 You record a video and you say, Hey, so and so here, I recorded a 00:09:38.425 --> 00:09:40.465 video for your specific website. 00:09:40.465 --> 00:09:41.745 Here's how we can improve it. 00:09:42.095 --> 00:09:45.475 That's going to have a much, higher close rate than just like 00:09:45.475 --> 00:09:49.765 a, you know, spam email or an AI generated sort of email or pitch. 00:09:50.700 --> 00:09:50.990 Matt: Yeah. 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:53.140 One of the challenges we started to hint at it. 00:09:53.140 --> 00:09:56.770 We talked about, some dialogue we might've had on Twitter with you 00:09:56.770 --> 00:10:00.720 testing out web flow, maybe dipping your toes into that category. 00:10:01.150 --> 00:10:02.020 Do you see. 00:10:02.410 --> 00:10:07.970 The CMS, WordPress, the CMS as, I don't want to say challenge, but the idea 00:10:07.970 --> 00:10:12.190 that folks have many choices now and we've been waving the flag for open 00:10:12.190 --> 00:10:17.340 source and GPL and, you know, own your content and experience with WordPress. 00:10:17.810 --> 00:10:22.890 But, you know, there's a lot of drama and issues in this last back half 00:10:22.890 --> 00:10:24.870 of the year surrounding WordPress. 00:10:25.540 --> 00:10:29.390 Then these WebFlows and Squarespace's, they look kind of nice and you're just 00:10:29.390 --> 00:10:33.180 like, I just, I'll just pay you, you know, I'll just pay the monthly fee. 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:36.440 Where do you land now that you've had some time to experiment with 00:10:36.440 --> 00:10:38.550 WebFlow and some of these other CMS's? 00:10:39.195 --> 00:10:41.655 Nat: I mean, I still haven't found anything better than WordPress, 00:10:42.205 --> 00:10:43.715 and I love to experiment. 00:10:44.245 --> 00:10:48.365 I, and we also, you know, honestly, we didn't start off as a WordPress agency. 00:10:48.365 --> 00:10:51.445 So I always say, like, you know, I'm not saying WordPress is 00:10:51.445 --> 00:10:53.065 going to be our tool forever. 00:10:53.075 --> 00:10:55.005 We might, you know, in the future, if. 00:10:55.195 --> 00:10:57.875 Something better comes along and you know, we need to pivot. 00:10:57.875 --> 00:11:03.785 We'll pivot just like we did in the past before WordPress was a thing But you know 00:11:03.785 --> 00:11:07.625 through my exploration and some of these other tools, they all kind of have their 00:11:07.705 --> 00:11:14.355 advantages and disadvantages I still think as an overall package and the value 00:11:14.395 --> 00:11:19.570 that you get Out of WordPress still can't be matched by these other solutions. 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:23.620 with Webflow specifically, I think it's mostly branding. 00:11:23.630 --> 00:11:27.220 You know, I've had clients like we want Webflow because it's new and it's cool. 00:11:27.230 --> 00:11:30.900 You know, you can do animations and stuff and you know, things 00:11:30.900 --> 00:11:32.270 can fly in and all that. 00:11:32.270 --> 00:11:34.100 And I'm like, well, we can do that in WordPress too. 00:11:34.610 --> 00:11:34.990 It's not. 00:11:35.135 --> 00:11:35.285 Matt: Yeah. 00:11:36.180 --> 00:11:37.610 Nat: but they're already sold. 00:11:37.630 --> 00:11:38.170 They're like, no. 00:11:38.400 --> 00:11:39.750 You know, WordPress is old. 00:11:40.030 --> 00:11:41.030 Webflow is new. 00:11:41.040 --> 00:11:43.840 We want the newest and greatest, you know, kind of thing. 00:11:44.410 --> 00:11:46.280 And, I mean, that's always going to be the case. 00:11:46.280 --> 00:11:51.460 Like I think your job as an agency owner and as a technology person is to educate 00:11:51.520 --> 00:11:55.620 your users a little bit as well to tell them why, you know, maybe, you know, 00:11:55.620 --> 00:11:57.200 WordPress is a better option for them. 00:11:57.265 --> 00:12:01.950 And, and to approach it that way, there's, you know, I've been, working 00:12:01.950 --> 00:12:04.760 with Wix, Wix studio, quite a bit as well. 00:12:05.070 --> 00:12:09.800 And there's, you know, some great stuff that they do really well that I think 00:12:09.880 --> 00:12:12.150 probably WordPress can learn from, right? 00:12:12.250 --> 00:12:14.170 you know, for example, it's super simple. 00:12:14.525 --> 00:12:17.045 CMS solution, for blogs. 00:12:17.085 --> 00:12:21.825 Like there's no, like it's, you know, it's a super easy, interface for clients 00:12:21.825 --> 00:12:26.785 to go in and update or put in their content, whereas in with WordPress, 00:12:26.785 --> 00:12:29.475 it's, it can be a bit challenging if you haven't used it before. 00:12:30.620 --> 00:12:34.890 And, so yeah, we're always exploring, but you know, I, I haven't found anything 00:12:34.900 --> 00:12:38.830 better than WordPress when it comes to the complete sort of package of offering 00:12:38.830 --> 00:12:40.130 and features and stuff like that. 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:47.340 Matt: In your agency, do you have a, stack that you use 00:12:47.400 --> 00:12:48.740 depending on the type of client? 00:12:48.740 --> 00:12:52.720 And what I mean by that is I know some agencies are still running 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:55.450 Word with WordPress, but they're using that at the higher end. 00:12:55.650 --> 00:12:59.220 And then they have at the entry level, they might use Webflow for 00:12:59.220 --> 00:13:03.040 the entry level for like rapid development and deployment of. 00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:07.670 Whatever the client's, situation is, but interior to WordPress, do you have a 00:13:07.670 --> 00:13:11.090 particular stack you say, okay, if this customer is below X amount of dollars, 00:13:11.350 --> 00:13:15.060 we're just going to give them, I don't know, cadence theme with this template 00:13:15.060 --> 00:13:19.140 and we, you know, we move on, like, do you have those kinds of stacks that you 00:13:19.140 --> 00:13:20.340 use depending on the type of client? 00:13:20.660 --> 00:13:21.020 Nat: Yeah. 00:13:21.020 --> 00:13:25.390 we have, we actually use Elementor pro for 90 percent of the projects. 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:27.480 we use bricks as well. 00:13:27.530 --> 00:13:30.470 In some cases, we're still exploring it a little bit. 00:13:30.550 --> 00:13:34.170 we like page builders, because they. 00:13:34.570 --> 00:13:38.180 Are easy for the client to maintain their content later 00:13:38.180 --> 00:13:39.510 and pages and stuff like that. 00:13:40.075 --> 00:13:45.225 and for us, we've worked with it for years that we know it's rapid for us, 00:13:45.225 --> 00:13:49.345 no matter what, if we're making a small website or a large website, you know, 00:13:49.345 --> 00:13:53.685 all of my staff, they're like trained on Elementor and Bricks and they can get 00:13:53.685 --> 00:13:55.635 a site up, up and running in no time. 00:13:56.085 --> 00:14:00.115 the issue with those page builders sometimes is the, perceived 00:14:00.115 --> 00:14:03.415 like performance and, you know, people run into issues with. 00:14:03.860 --> 00:14:05.380 You know, slowness and stuff like that. 00:14:05.380 --> 00:14:09.310 But what we found through working with both of those three years is 00:14:09.310 --> 00:14:13.730 that we know how to use them properly and how to tune them that, you know, 00:14:13.730 --> 00:14:18.260 we still get excellent, page speed results as well using those builders. 00:14:18.260 --> 00:14:21.520 And so we try to standardize as much as possible. 00:14:21.530 --> 00:14:25.520 So every website, you know, we're not going to use cadence on one generate press 00:14:25.520 --> 00:14:27.860 on another element or on a third one. 00:14:28.300 --> 00:14:31.910 We like to use Elementor on all of the websites so that like we 00:14:32.070 --> 00:14:36.040 basically, you know, we're very familiar with it and super quick. 00:14:36.230 --> 00:14:39.840 It just kind of improves our workflow and speeds things up significantly. 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:41.519 Exactly. 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:46.420 Matt: somebody from my YouTube channel sent me a contact, form asking, like, 00:14:46.430 --> 00:14:50.050 she is, getting a little bit more serious about her freelance and agency work. 00:14:50.490 --> 00:14:54.780 And she was asking me like, Hey, I'm drowning in options, you know, out here. 00:14:55.060 --> 00:14:55.350 Right. 00:14:55.350 --> 00:14:57.550 It's just like, I heard Elementor is good. 00:14:57.550 --> 00:14:58.510 I heard Elementor is bad. 00:14:58.510 --> 00:14:59.390 I heard Cadence is good. 00:14:59.390 --> 00:15:03.150 I heard Bricks is, you know, there's all these things that if you're looking to. 00:15:04.185 --> 00:15:05.455 Start your freelance business. 00:15:05.605 --> 00:15:07.925 I mean, God, imagine what your customer is going through. 00:15:08.065 --> 00:15:10.075 If you're having these challenges, your customer is having the same thing. 00:15:10.415 --> 00:15:13.265 I'm sure I wrote back and I was like, look, I think if you're 00:15:13.265 --> 00:15:18.715 looking for an ecosystem within an ecosystem, Elementor is your best bet. 00:15:19.055 --> 00:15:21.665 if you're looking for all the tools, you're looking for one place to go and 00:15:21.665 --> 00:15:25.765 learn this stuff, Elementor, possibly Divi, with their new version coming. 00:15:25.995 --> 00:15:26.695 and then you started like. 00:15:27.070 --> 00:15:30.200 You take a step back and you go, okay, if you want a hybrid theme, you know, 00:15:30.250 --> 00:15:34.920 you're not going to have all the, like the popups and the email SMTP service, like 00:15:34.930 --> 00:15:38.700 the whole robust ecosystem that Elementor has, but you want a hybrid approach. 00:15:38.970 --> 00:15:41.320 Then it's like a cadence or a generate press. 00:15:41.580 --> 00:15:44.820 And then if you want like core experience, you know, get ready with 00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:48.250 2024, you know, and just like launch a site, install jetpack and move on. 00:15:48.260 --> 00:15:49.620 There's like these three tiers. 00:15:49.950 --> 00:15:53.245 it's interesting how, WordPress is shaping, the tooling around 00:15:53.245 --> 00:15:54.305 WordPress is shaping up. 00:15:54.665 --> 00:15:56.345 I don't have a direct question there, but I don't know if you have any 00:15:56.345 --> 00:16:00.425 other thoughts on like any kind of like tier that you see happening 00:16:00.425 --> 00:16:02.765 with how people use WordPress. 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:03.740 Nat: Yeah. 00:16:03.740 --> 00:16:09.130 I mean, you know, it's a great question and a great point where, like imagine 00:16:09.130 --> 00:16:11.890 what clients are going through and they're trying to decide what, you 00:16:11.890 --> 00:16:13.830 know, what stack to use for WordPress. 00:16:14.270 --> 00:16:19.240 What I usually recommend to freelancers and agencies is To actually just like 00:16:19.550 --> 00:16:24.050 learn one deeply versus, playing around with generate press, playing around 00:16:24.050 --> 00:16:27.670 with cadence, playing around with Elementor and Divi because all of them 00:16:27.670 --> 00:16:31.470 work slightly differently and you're not really going to get into those 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:35.010 nuances without learning one deeply. 00:16:35.010 --> 00:16:36.540 And that's why we use Elementor. 00:16:36.580 --> 00:16:39.570 We find that between Elementor Pro. 00:16:40.345 --> 00:16:44.515 Building the layouts in Elementor Pro and doing some custom code stuff that we 00:16:44.725 --> 00:16:46.615 pretty much can do everything with it. 00:16:47.125 --> 00:16:49.985 And, you know, you get to learn some of those nuances. 00:16:49.985 --> 00:16:53.805 For example, you know, if you have a slider, why can't I lazy 00:16:53.805 --> 00:16:55.485 load my background images, right? 00:16:55.535 --> 00:16:57.305 That's going to be very specific to Elementor. 00:16:58.160 --> 00:17:01.210 Some performance tools will be able to do it a certain ways. 00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:03.000 Other ones don't, won't. 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.460 And I'm sure there's a bunch of little nuances like that for Divi as well, right? 00:17:07.560 --> 00:17:10.090 Or GeneratePress or whatever, right? 00:17:10.090 --> 00:17:13.660 So, you're not gonna really learn those and have as much experience 00:17:13.660 --> 00:17:17.115 if you're using Different kind of tiers and solutions, I think. 00:17:17.575 --> 00:17:23.025 So my advice has always been to agencies and clients is to focus 00:17:23.025 --> 00:17:25.075 on one and kind of learn it deeply. 00:17:25.345 --> 00:17:27.395 And we've had some great success that way. 00:17:27.395 --> 00:17:30.815 We, you know, created a bunch of content around Elementor Speed, more 00:17:30.815 --> 00:17:35.305 specifically, where we've had clients approach us to be like, we love Elementor. 00:17:35.305 --> 00:17:36.125 We want to stick with it. 00:17:36.135 --> 00:17:37.325 We have an existing site. 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:38.800 The speed's killing us. 00:17:38.820 --> 00:17:40.320 Can you fix it for us? 00:17:40.330 --> 00:17:44.790 Or can you create a site that's like done properly in Elementor that, you know, 00:17:44.870 --> 00:17:48.880 meets PageSpeed Insights and gets great scores on mobile and stuff like that. 00:17:49.760 --> 00:17:53.000 Matt: Yeah, I wonder if you can give us some insight into how you 00:17:53.010 --> 00:17:56.210 have, created a sustainable agency. 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:57.640 and let me frame it for you. 00:17:57.640 --> 00:17:59.730 When I started my agency, I was doing everything. 00:17:59.990 --> 00:18:03.610 and it was, you know, selling, supporting, launching, designing, developing. 00:18:03.930 --> 00:18:05.190 So there's always this moment where you go. 00:18:05.445 --> 00:18:07.845 I can't grow this business if I'm doing this. 00:18:07.905 --> 00:18:11.605 And the first thing I peeled off was I can't do design and do all 00:18:11.605 --> 00:18:13.125 this other stuff, hired a designer. 00:18:13.375 --> 00:18:16.765 Then I quickly realized I can't do the development with this 00:18:16.765 --> 00:18:19.585 designer and grow the biz, hired a developer, so on and so forth. 00:18:19.585 --> 00:18:22.775 Project manager, accounting, office management, all this 00:18:22.775 --> 00:18:24.025 stuff slowly, just like. 00:18:24.335 --> 00:18:28.235 Pulling myself out so that I could sell and grow, the agency. 00:18:28.405 --> 00:18:30.655 how, what does your internal workflow look like? 00:18:30.655 --> 00:18:33.815 Customer knocks on the door, I want to quote, and then what happens 00:18:34.140 --> 00:18:34.550 Nat: Yeah. 00:18:34.830 --> 00:18:39.770 so for us, I'm in charge of the sales mostly and, I was doing. 00:18:39.835 --> 00:18:40.735 Matt: The most fun part. 00:18:41.065 --> 00:18:41.405 Nat: fun part. 00:18:41.405 --> 00:18:41.725 Yeah. 00:18:42.245 --> 00:18:45.855 And I was doing, some project management as well on the, you 00:18:45.855 --> 00:18:49.305 know, various development projects that we have in the, on, on the go. 00:18:49.765 --> 00:18:53.955 I started like you, I had, you know, I was a one man show for years and years. 00:18:54.435 --> 00:18:58.125 And then I realized, okay, you know, as I was starting to do a little bit more SEO 00:18:58.125 --> 00:18:59.605 and marketing, I was getting more leads. 00:18:59.605 --> 00:19:02.395 And so I was like, okay, well, I can't be doing both. 00:19:02.395 --> 00:19:04.195 I can't be building sites and. 00:19:04.725 --> 00:19:07.855 you know, doing the sales and project management and all that other stuff. 00:19:07.855 --> 00:19:12.435 So I hired a developer first, so I hired a developer and then I 00:19:12.435 --> 00:19:15.925 hired another developer and then I hired a designer and so forth. 00:19:15.925 --> 00:19:18.165 So now my team is seven people plus me. 00:19:18.635 --> 00:19:22.135 And, just through like different needs and things that we 00:19:22.135 --> 00:19:23.655 had, the different projects. 00:19:24.205 --> 00:19:28.835 that's how the team kind of grew sort of organically in terms of the workflow. 00:19:28.885 --> 00:19:32.155 so we have leads coming through mainly through SEO, through our 00:19:32.155 --> 00:19:34.635 website or through referrals. 00:19:35.085 --> 00:19:38.315 we usually start off with some like pre qualifying questions in 00:19:38.315 --> 00:19:40.055 terms of, you know, their budget. 00:19:40.595 --> 00:19:44.115 We tell them our pricing up front, just because we don't want to waste their time. 00:19:44.115 --> 00:19:46.405 We don't want to waste our time in terms of like jumping on a 00:19:46.405 --> 00:19:47.995 call and trying to do sales. 00:19:47.995 --> 00:19:50.735 If you know, their budget is a thousand dollars and our minimum 00:19:50.735 --> 00:19:54.205 site is like five, there's no point really you know, wasting their time. 00:19:54.875 --> 00:19:58.325 And so we try, we start with some pre qualifying questions. 00:19:58.775 --> 00:20:02.785 if they're a good fit, I start off with an estimate, more detailed sort of project 00:20:02.785 --> 00:20:04.925 proposal in terms of this is what you get. 00:20:05.265 --> 00:20:07.555 This is how much it's going to cost and so forth. 00:20:07.925 --> 00:20:09.025 After they accept that. 00:20:09.375 --> 00:20:12.365 Then we do, sort of like a, we have a checklist, a sort 00:20:12.365 --> 00:20:14.005 of a startup questionnaire. 00:20:14.545 --> 00:20:19.625 and then once that's done, we assign a developer to it, or a designer and 00:20:19.625 --> 00:20:23.035 a developer to work through those specs and sort of give them their 00:20:23.495 --> 00:20:25.535 sort of phase one of the project. 00:20:25.535 --> 00:20:28.115 And all that happens fairly quickly for us. 00:20:28.175 --> 00:20:31.035 My latest hire has been, like a client manager. 00:20:31.265 --> 00:20:33.855 So that's been really nice as well, where somebody else can like. 00:20:34.185 --> 00:20:36.785 Meet with the clients, you know, manage the product. 00:20:36.905 --> 00:20:37.935 Matt: I remember that. 00:20:37.945 --> 00:20:39.075 That was the best. 00:20:39.825 --> 00:20:41.215 Oh, it was the best. 00:20:41.840 --> 00:20:42.370 Nat: Totally. 00:20:42.510 --> 00:20:44.570 So I have really cut down on my meetings. 00:20:45.575 --> 00:20:45.975 Matt: Yeah. 00:20:46.470 --> 00:20:46.840 Nat: Yeah. 00:20:46.860 --> 00:20:50.510 So that's kind of, you know, sort of the beginning stages. 00:20:50.510 --> 00:20:54.160 And then obviously there's a few iterations in terms of like the 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:58.640 delivery and the testing and the launch and, you know, pre and 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:00.330 post launch kind of checklist. 00:21:00.330 --> 00:21:01.610 And, that's pretty much it. 00:21:01.630 --> 00:21:07.250 We have, SOPs for all of those steps where we have, you know, certain steps that 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:12.350 get taken, depending on where the project is at and, works pretty smoothly so far. 00:21:12.570 --> 00:21:14.520 I'm like a process improvement geek. 00:21:14.520 --> 00:21:18.590 So, I love to dig into that stuff and improve things 00:21:18.590 --> 00:21:19.810 when I see there's an issue. 00:21:20.280 --> 00:21:20.680 So. 00:21:21.075 --> 00:21:21.325 Matt: Yeah. 00:21:22.765 --> 00:21:25.805 I'm curious how you, this is a more technical question, but I'm curious 00:21:25.805 --> 00:21:30.495 how you handle, the workflow of designing, let's say front end design. 00:21:30.505 --> 00:21:34.265 If you're using Elementor or making changes in Elementor or Bricks for that 00:21:34.265 --> 00:21:37.905 matter, and you're making sort of like this code level adjustments, but it's. 00:21:38.045 --> 00:21:39.845 in the actual page builder itself. 00:21:40.075 --> 00:21:41.755 How do you handle that revisioning? 00:21:42.085 --> 00:21:45.085 so if, you know, one developer front end developers working on your team, 00:21:45.085 --> 00:21:47.395 then that person's out or transitions. 00:21:47.675 --> 00:21:50.695 How do you like get that next developer up to speed? 00:21:50.705 --> 00:21:55.195 If it's not generally in like GitHub, all version controlled, how do you solve that 00:21:55.195 --> 00:21:57.095 complexity these days with page builders? 00:21:57.190 --> 00:21:58.200 Nat: Yeah, that's a good one. 00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:02.590 And we don't use get hub, or version control, but we use it sometimes only 00:22:02.590 --> 00:22:06.090 if the client, if it's a bigger project and there's multiple developers involved 00:22:06.090 --> 00:22:10.470 in, and it's developers that are not on, on my team as well, then we'll use get, 00:22:10.710 --> 00:22:14.540 get hub, but it's, it's fairly, Yeah, it's fairly uncommon for us to do that. 00:22:14.540 --> 00:22:21.350 So we mostly, use, Elementor Pro and then we use a certain, we put the code 00:22:21.350 --> 00:22:24.750 always in certain areas so that we know exactly where to look if we have some 00:22:24.760 --> 00:22:28.420 sort of, you know, cross development going on between the different developers. 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:33.990 However, I like to also keep consistency and keep one developer working. 00:22:34.515 --> 00:22:38.625 on a project, mainly because of that reason, because there's not 00:22:38.625 --> 00:22:40.885 a lot of cross training required. 00:22:41.305 --> 00:22:45.825 in some cases, we do have more than one developer working on a certain project, 00:22:45.855 --> 00:22:49.795 or we have somebody else take over if there's something that's a higher priority 00:22:49.795 --> 00:22:52.795 or something that's a specialization of one of the other developers that 00:22:52.795 --> 00:22:54.355 they have to jump onto something else. 00:22:54.845 --> 00:22:57.545 So the key there is to keep everything in one place. 00:22:57.555 --> 00:23:02.890 So, for example, for us, if we're doing certain types of changes, we'll put 00:23:02.890 --> 00:23:06.700 everything Elementor has their own, like custom code sort of section where you 00:23:06.700 --> 00:23:11.230 can add different snippets and like, you know, styling or code changes. 00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:12.970 So they're always in one place. 00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:15.250 They're always named a certain way and we know exactly where to 00:23:15.250 --> 00:23:17.740 look for other types of changes. 00:23:17.790 --> 00:23:19.880 We also always use, child theme. 00:23:20.800 --> 00:23:24.090 So for other types of changes, they're always in the child theme. 00:23:24.100 --> 00:23:27.730 So you always know, you know, where to look for certain things so that 00:23:27.730 --> 00:23:29.430 we don't like overwrite or clobber. 00:23:29.485 --> 00:23:35.050 other people's changes, in terms of the design itself and the actual development, 00:23:35.470 --> 00:23:41.540 we always start with either a Figma design, where we get the client to, 00:23:41.740 --> 00:23:46.610 approve the design and Figma before we started developing it, or we do 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:48.790 write an element or, like a homepage. 00:23:49.090 --> 00:23:51.420 Design initially and then they approve that and then we 00:23:51.420 --> 00:23:52.680 proceed with the other stuff 00:23:53.250 --> 00:23:53.520 Matt: Yeah. 00:23:53.840 --> 00:23:58.200 Nat: And so those are kind of the two approaches if it's more design heavy a 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:01.860 design heavy project where we think okay This has to be done with a little bit 00:24:01.860 --> 00:24:06.230 more care we'll do everything in Figma first, but sometimes we go straight into 00:24:06.230 --> 00:24:11.900 Elementor and we just Put up a home page and get them to provide feedback on that 00:24:13.270 --> 00:24:17.080 Matt: The dedicated listener is going to be sick of hearing me talk about this AI. 00:24:17.210 --> 00:24:20.050 I've been, learning it, in an intense fashion. 00:24:20.270 --> 00:24:23.190 I'm building micro little ad hoc react apps. 00:24:23.190 --> 00:24:28.420 I'm not touching WordPress, but it, what it has done for me is give me a renewed. 00:24:28.805 --> 00:24:31.145 sense of appreciation for WordPress, right? 00:24:31.145 --> 00:24:35.115 Like I could go and build my air quotes own WordPress with like Claude 00:24:35.115 --> 00:24:37.215 and cursor and deploy all this stuff. 00:24:37.355 --> 00:24:37.915 That's great. 00:24:38.035 --> 00:24:41.425 But if it's just there in that one instance, there's nobody maintaining it. 00:24:41.435 --> 00:24:43.085 There's no one critically thinking about it. 00:24:43.085 --> 00:24:44.085 Certainly not this guy. 00:24:44.295 --> 00:24:47.065 And I'm not going to patch it and make any kind of security updates. 00:24:47.295 --> 00:24:51.305 So I have this like renewed, you know, you know, thankfulness for WordPress 00:24:51.305 --> 00:24:53.855 and like all of the stuff that happens, because now you look at that, 00:24:53.875 --> 00:24:56.515 if you spend like two weeks using. 00:24:56.930 --> 00:24:57.150 A. 00:24:57.150 --> 00:24:57.260 I. 00:24:57.310 --> 00:24:58.260 To code stuff for you. 00:24:58.450 --> 00:24:58.870 You'll go. 00:24:58.920 --> 00:24:59.590 Oh, you know what? 00:24:59.870 --> 00:25:01.570 Just give me this wordpress thing off the shelf. 00:25:02.270 --> 00:25:03.380 I don't care if it's old. 00:25:03.990 --> 00:25:05.050 You know, I like it. 00:25:05.370 --> 00:25:07.910 first sort of broad remark from you. 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:09.220 What's your take on A. 00:25:09.220 --> 00:25:09.730 I. 00:25:10.140 --> 00:25:11.970 In impacting your business? 00:25:13.030 --> 00:25:14.300 Nat: yeah, it has been great. 00:25:14.300 --> 00:25:18.080 I think, you know, for us, we use it daily, for various things. 00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:20.020 we do a bit of SEO as well. 00:25:20.020 --> 00:25:24.020 It's very helpful there in order to do planning and get ideas in 00:25:24.020 --> 00:25:25.990 terms of content, and so forth. 00:25:26.030 --> 00:25:30.170 We use it also for creating content for clients when they're stuck 00:25:30.170 --> 00:25:31.970 in terms of not being able to. 00:25:32.590 --> 00:25:34.900 Figure out like what type of pages do they need? 00:25:35.100 --> 00:25:38.580 What type of content did they need on those pages as a starting point where 00:25:38.580 --> 00:25:39.980 we give them sort of a blueprint. 00:25:40.590 --> 00:25:44.220 and they use it as a starting point to develop their content for their website. 00:25:44.620 --> 00:25:51.740 We also heavily use it for, Plugin and for customizations on WordPress specifically. 00:25:52.130 --> 00:25:57.430 So the chat bots are really good, or chat clients, AI or open ai. 00:25:57.790 --> 00:26:01.330 and Claude are very good at sort of understanding the WordPress sort of 00:26:01.330 --> 00:26:05.980 context as well, so you can ask it some very specific WordPress related questions. 00:26:06.420 --> 00:26:09.300 You know, I'm trying to make this and this plugin. 00:26:09.565 --> 00:26:10.655 How would you approach that? 00:26:10.655 --> 00:26:14.395 And it gives you some snippets that you can use in order to get a, get 00:26:14.405 --> 00:26:16.715 a starting point and it's helpful. 00:26:16.715 --> 00:26:18.105 I find even with the senior. 00:26:18.545 --> 00:26:23.085 Developers where it gives them sort of an idea of, you know, if they're not familiar 00:26:23.085 --> 00:26:27.455 with a particular thing that they can, you know, they're not going to copy and paste 00:26:27.465 --> 00:26:31.185 that code, obviously, you know, they're gonna, but it will give them ideas. 00:26:31.185 --> 00:26:31.585 Oh, okay. 00:26:31.585 --> 00:26:32.745 This is where I should look. 00:26:32.755 --> 00:26:36.675 This is the hook, or this is what is possible with this plugin or that plugin, 00:26:37.325 --> 00:26:39.515 in order to, use it as a starting point. 00:26:39.515 --> 00:26:40.285 So we like. 00:26:41.095 --> 00:26:43.375 Now, I think we use it so much. 00:26:43.375 --> 00:26:46.245 I don't, it's one of those things you couldn't, we couldn't live without it. 00:26:46.285 --> 00:26:49.635 You know, we didn't know what we had, we didn't have before, but 00:26:50.015 --> 00:26:54.685 definitely it's a renewed, our, also appreciation for WordPress. 00:26:54.685 --> 00:26:59.790 And like you said, the stability of the platform and the having the team behind 00:26:59.790 --> 00:27:04.895 it to, you know, patch it and improve it and continue to evolve it as well. 00:27:04.895 --> 00:27:05.125 Right. 00:27:06.460 --> 00:27:07.000 Matt: Last month. 00:27:07.450 --> 00:27:10.210 Last month or a couple months ago, I was talking to my brother and he 00:27:10.210 --> 00:27:14.390 was like, oh, if I would pay chat PT like 400 bucks a month, you know, for 00:27:14.390 --> 00:27:15.790 like the value that I get out of it. 00:27:15.790 --> 00:27:19.150 And then they came out with their pro version last week for 200 bucks. 00:27:19.150 --> 00:27:20.890 I sent him a, yeah, I sent him a text message. 00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:22.030 I, I hope you're on that 200. 00:27:22.030 --> 00:27:23.020 He was like, oh, well no. 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:24.340 Well, I'm not gonna get on it yet. 00:27:24.340 --> 00:27:25.480 I'm like, oh, 00:27:25.850 --> 00:27:26.320 Nat: That's right. 00:27:26.500 --> 00:27:28.390 Matt: Praying to your AI gods now, huh? 00:27:28.390 --> 00:27:29.350 For a lower price. 00:27:29.830 --> 00:27:30.730 Yeah, no, that's fantastic. 00:27:30.730 --> 00:27:34.940 I've been looking at it as, WordPress, AI plus WordPress. 00:27:34.950 --> 00:27:37.910 Hopefully AI helps extend and augment that. 00:27:38.280 --> 00:27:38.830 Um. 00:27:39.585 --> 00:27:42.495 the stack that we already have, like you shouldn't replace it. 00:27:42.945 --> 00:27:45.985 And I've been thinking like we might get to a point in agency world. 00:27:45.985 --> 00:27:49.985 And I'm curious, obviously on, on your take on this, but I think we might be 00:27:49.985 --> 00:27:55.265 looking at a pricing grid for agencies in the future where it's like, how many 00:27:55.275 --> 00:27:56.915 humans do you want on your project? 00:27:57.325 --> 00:27:58.125 Do you want one? 00:27:58.530 --> 00:28:02.660 And 90 percent AI, or do you want five in 50 percent AI? 00:28:03.120 --> 00:28:06.530 And it's going to be just, I don't have a reference for it yet, but 00:28:06.530 --> 00:28:11.750 it's just gonna be wild to see how pricing and how we put humans in front 00:28:11.780 --> 00:28:13.630 of the client for that experience. 00:28:13.990 --> 00:28:16.140 Just like we're buying CPUs on a server. 00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:19.300 It's very matrix and scary to think about it that way, but it's like 00:28:19.310 --> 00:28:22.130 five humans on this project is going to be a hundred thousand dollars, 00:28:22.330 --> 00:28:24.900 you know, and the customers will be like, yes, I want more humans in 00:28:25.045 --> 00:28:25.585 Nat: That's right. 00:28:25.615 --> 00:28:26.155 That's right. 00:28:26.485 --> 00:28:28.045 You already see that in the S. 00:28:28.045 --> 00:28:28.225 C. 00:28:28.225 --> 00:28:28.355 O. 00:28:28.355 --> 00:28:30.545 World for content creation, right? 00:28:30.555 --> 00:28:34.645 So it's like, you know, almost every content agency now is like 00:28:34.655 --> 00:28:36.785 human generated content or A. 00:28:36.785 --> 00:28:36.925 I. 00:28:36.925 --> 00:28:37.405 Content. 00:28:37.415 --> 00:28:38.455 Do you want one or the other? 00:28:38.455 --> 00:28:38.725 Right? 00:28:38.735 --> 00:28:43.345 And so it's I could see that happening as well in the WordPress development world 00:28:43.345 --> 00:28:45.225 or website development world in general. 00:28:45.225 --> 00:28:47.345 I think, you know, I've played around with the A. 00:28:47.345 --> 00:28:47.475 I. 00:28:47.475 --> 00:28:47.835 Tools. 00:28:47.835 --> 00:28:50.835 I don't know if you have in terms of these, AI web builders and stuff. 00:28:50.865 --> 00:28:55.675 None of them have made me scared enough to, you know, to look to shut the 00:28:55.675 --> 00:28:58.225 agency down, yet, but you never know. 00:28:58.275 --> 00:29:02.235 I mean, you know, I've, you know, I'll always refer to something. 00:29:02.235 --> 00:29:03.305 I've been doing this for a while. 00:29:03.305 --> 00:29:07.535 I've had my business since 2007 and, you know, we developed everything 00:29:07.535 --> 00:29:08.895 from scratch in those days. 00:29:09.105 --> 00:29:10.115 So when these. 00:29:10.410 --> 00:29:11.730 Web builders came along. 00:29:11.730 --> 00:29:13.840 I'm like, Oh crap, we're going to be out of a job. 00:29:13.860 --> 00:29:15.030 Like Wix came on. 00:29:15.460 --> 00:29:18.410 I think one of the first ones where it's like, make your own website. 00:29:18.410 --> 00:29:18.710 Right. 00:29:19.210 --> 00:29:20.140 I'm like, man, I don't know. 00:29:20.140 --> 00:29:21.620 I think my days are numbered, right? 00:29:21.620 --> 00:29:24.400 Like, I don't know how long we're going to be making websites for people. 00:29:24.830 --> 00:29:29.430 And you know, more and more of those tools started to like come up in 00:29:29.430 --> 00:29:34.060 terms of, you know, this thing can do everything and the client is going to 00:29:34.060 --> 00:29:36.290 do their, do this thing on their own. 00:29:36.750 --> 00:29:39.950 And I've stopped worrying about that because. 00:29:40.305 --> 00:29:44.255 I've been in tech long enough to know that, you know, something that 00:29:44.275 --> 00:29:47.755 proliferates as much as WordPress did, it's going to be very hard to 00:29:47.755 --> 00:29:49.775 replace and it's going to take forever. 00:29:50.295 --> 00:29:54.845 And then the second thing that I realized in my career is that the clients that 00:29:54.845 --> 00:29:58.925 want to do it on their own, you probably don't want them as clients, you know, 00:29:58.945 --> 00:30:02.725 so they're always going to find a way to do it on their own and you shouldn't 00:30:02.725 --> 00:30:04.095 be trying to win their business. 00:30:04.395 --> 00:30:09.625 You want clients that, you know, Are focused on growing their business 00:30:09.665 --> 00:30:13.555 and leaving the web development or marketing or whatever up to professionals 00:30:13.595 --> 00:30:16.945 that, you know, do it for a living, no matter what tools we use, right? 00:30:17.755 --> 00:30:21.095 Matt: Yeah, one of the things that we were talking about earlier is like, how 00:30:21.095 --> 00:30:26.155 do we, you know, combat the 500 website builder and a lot of this AI stuff, at 00:30:26.155 --> 00:30:28.945 least the stuff that I've been using to make like these react apps, what 00:30:28.945 --> 00:30:33.815 that has done is throw me down this rabbit hole of understanding all of the 00:30:33.815 --> 00:30:36.605 frameworks that exist out in the world. 00:30:36.615 --> 00:30:40.495 And you're just like, Oh, like, this is why there are. 00:30:41.300 --> 00:30:44.480 People looking at WordPress going, WordPress, that thing's 20 years old, when 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:48.540 somebody's like, you have to run this new framework that's only 6 months old, made 00:30:48.540 --> 00:30:51.900 by 2 people living on top of a mountain, you know, somewhere, and you're just like, 00:30:51.910 --> 00:30:54.070 wait, this is the one I should be using? 00:30:54.380 --> 00:30:59.750 And what I've come to realize is, this, what this AI tooling does, maybe 00:30:59.750 --> 00:31:03.210 specifically with like React apps, I don't know, but this is just what I have found. 00:31:03.815 --> 00:31:08.335 Is this almost feel like AI feels like the page builders for WordPress 15 years 00:31:08.335 --> 00:31:14.155 ago for that world and I've seen this social shift just like I saw 15 years ago, 00:31:14.155 --> 00:31:15.995 people going, don't use a page builder. 00:31:15.995 --> 00:31:16.635 You're crazy. 00:31:16.665 --> 00:31:17.455 Build it by hand. 00:31:17.455 --> 00:31:18.535 That's the right way to do it. 00:31:18.775 --> 00:31:22.325 Now I'm seeing these people in these JavaScript frameworks, forums and 00:31:22.555 --> 00:31:26.435 stuff go like, don't use AI, you know, you know, you have to build it 00:31:26.435 --> 00:31:27.715 by hand, you know, don't trust us. 00:31:27.745 --> 00:31:28.785 And I'm looking at this going. 00:31:28.785 --> 00:31:28.855 Yeah. 00:31:29.105 --> 00:31:32.855 I heard you people 15, 20 years ago in WordPress. 00:31:33.055 --> 00:31:33.705 So guess what? 00:31:33.955 --> 00:31:35.935 It's coming for you just like it came for us. 00:31:36.245 --> 00:31:36.675 Nat: That's right. 00:31:36.725 --> 00:31:37.215 That's right. 00:31:37.725 --> 00:31:38.465 It's so funny. 00:31:38.465 --> 00:31:41.375 I think that debate still goes on page builders are crap. 00:31:41.445 --> 00:31:43.855 Got to do a scratch or it's not good. 00:31:43.885 --> 00:31:44.275 Right. 00:31:44.335 --> 00:31:45.505 And, it's so funny. 00:31:45.595 --> 00:31:48.335 I've had, I don't know, we, I feel like almost. 00:31:48.820 --> 00:31:50.010 One or two a month. 00:31:50.650 --> 00:31:53.490 you know, the projects that we do is converting. 00:31:54.365 --> 00:31:58.685 Custom developed WordPress websites, Intel, a mentor, because the clients are 00:31:58.685 --> 00:32:00.445 sick of not being able to update anything. 00:32:00.445 --> 00:32:05.095 So there's that side of the equation as well. 00:32:05.975 --> 00:32:06.335 Matt: Yeah. 00:32:06.525 --> 00:32:07.385 He's Nat Militech. 00:32:07.395 --> 00:32:09.505 You can find his website, cleowebsites. 00:32:09.515 --> 00:32:09.765 com. 00:32:09.765 --> 00:32:12.305 You can find him meming away at x. 00:32:12.485 --> 00:32:13.885 com slash nat militech. 00:32:13.895 --> 00:32:15.745 Nat, where else can folks go to say thanks? 00:32:16.255 --> 00:32:17.455 Nat: hit me up through my website. 00:32:17.465 --> 00:32:20.165 That's my primary mode of communication. 00:32:20.225 --> 00:32:22.035 or, I'm on all the socials. 00:32:22.385 --> 00:32:25.095 I'm trying to be a little bit more on LinkedIn. 00:32:25.405 --> 00:32:26.965 So, connect with me on LinkedIn. 00:32:28.495 --> 00:32:29.225 Matt: You and me both. 00:32:29.225 --> 00:32:31.405 I'm just trying to make a chat bot to do it for me. 00:32:33.805 --> 00:32:34.565 Oh, thanks. 00:32:34.635 --> 00:32:36.035 Thanks everybody for listening or watching today. 00:32:36.035 --> 00:32:39.885 So the WP minute dot com, the WP minute dot com slash subscribe to stay connected 00:32:39.885 --> 00:32:42.125 and we'll see you in the next episode.