WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:06.475 --> 00:00:06.665 Mike Caldwell: All right. 00:00:06.665 --> 00:00:07.515 Hello and welcome. 00:00:07.515 --> 00:00:14.455 This is Mike Caldwell with another episode of the Transformative Principal podcast, welcoming Bill Knous from Colorado. 00:00:14.455 --> 00:00:15.025 Bill, welcome. 00:00:16.425 --> 00:00:17.915 Mike, thanks so much for having me on the show. 00:00:18.435 --> 00:00:18.865 You bet. 00:00:19.425 --> 00:00:26.525 Okay, we're gonna get into your background just sh- shortly, but I thought we would just jump right into some, some rap- a couple rapid fire questions. 00:00:26.605 --> 00:00:30.715 Um, sometimes I save these till the end, but you know, let's just... let's mix it up a little bit. 00:00:31.505 --> 00:00:36.415 Share- Yes, I love it ... share a school visit or classroom moment you'll never forget 00:00:38.461 --> 00:00:50.301 Bill Knous: There's a school in Durango, Colorado called Mountain Middle School, and the- they focus heavily on authentic performance tasks. 00:00:50.751 --> 00:00:58.801 And everybody who goes there, and the one time I was there, it is the most engaged, um, students that I have found anywhere. 00:00:58.871 --> 00:01:03.191 Uh, you know, middle school is often the place where people, um, either love it or don't. 00:01:03.191 --> 00:01:15.161 Uh, all school leaders know it's like, "I'm a middle school person or I'm not." And I think a lot of middle schools that I visit tend to have solid compliance, but most people are like, "The kids are just not that engaged. 00:01:15.531 --> 00:01:21.041 We're managing more behaviors than we are deepening the thinking." And this is the one place, and again, they serve a very diverse population. 00:01:21.771 --> 00:01:28.761 They have kids fully bought in and motivated to perform on the authentic tasks that they've laid out. 00:01:29.111 --> 00:01:32.251 Um, kids are bummed to go on s- on summer break. 00:01:32.671 --> 00:01:33.671 They're bummed to leave. 00:01:33.751 --> 00:01:57.261 And, um, anytime I think of the best classrooms, it's the spaces where the leaders and the teachers have aligned on how to create the right type of environment that does not require constant adult input, but can really center what we might call intrinsic, even if some of the motivation is extrinsic, but real motivation where students want to do the thing. 00:01:57.971 --> 00:02:00.961 You know, I think people might say like Alpha School might have tapped into that a little bit. 00:02:00.961 --> 00:02:05.881 And, you know, there was a middle school that I saw in Columbia that had elements of that when it was doing outdoor learning. 00:02:05.881 --> 00:02:10.811 But Mountain Middle School, Durango, Colorado, for those of you that don't know it, Shane Voss is the school leader. 00:02:11.151 --> 00:02:12.181 Go and check it out. 00:02:12.181 --> 00:02:12.961 It is worth your time. 00:02:13.771 --> 00:02:16.741 Mike Caldwell: Well, I've been wanting to go to Durango, so now I have another reason to go. 00:02:16.801 --> 00:02:21.161 I've never been other than the mountain biking and some of the f- yeah, just beauty. 00:02:21.241 --> 00:02:22.541 Um, now I- now I'll know. 00:02:22.541 --> 00:02:22.601 Yeah. 00:02:22.601 --> 00:02:24.071 Mount... What was the name of the school? 00:02:24.941 --> 00:02:26.481 Bill Knous: Mountain Middle School. 00:02:26.481 --> 00:02:27.171 Mike Caldwell: Mountain Middle School. 00:02:27.311 --> 00:02:27.911 Makes sense. 00:02:27.911 --> 00:02:28.251 Cool. 00:02:29.061 --> 00:02:38.581 Well, B- Bill, you currently serve as the senior director of quality and growth at the Colorado League of Charter Schools, but that's just one of many hats you're wearing currently. 00:02:38.581 --> 00:02:49.901 Uh, obviously as a, uh, uh, in, in addition to that, you're, you're a parent and you're also a founder and of a, of a new micro school in Colorado as well. 00:02:49.941 --> 00:02:52.011 So very, very interesting. 00:02:52.011 --> 00:02:56.781 We'll get into kind of a lot of that and maybe the triangulation of all those things as well. 00:02:57.291 --> 00:03:08.151 Um, but you began your career as a mind- a multilingual learner, uh, teacher before moving into school leadership and obvious- and your statewide charter work. 00:03:08.221 --> 00:03:11.401 Um, what-- Let's talk about your, your history a little bit. 00:03:11.401 --> 00:03:12.911 What drew you into education? 00:03:13.521 --> 00:03:19.311 How did that path eventually lead you into the charter school growth and micro school design work that you're currently in? 00:03:21.193 --> 00:03:28.573 Bill Knous: I graduated from the University of Wyoming with a history degree, and everybody said, "Are you gonna teach?" And like a lot of young graduates, I was like, "Nope." 00:03:28.613 --> 00:03:32.913 I learned a lot about the world, um, and I went to go see it. 00:03:32.913 --> 00:03:38.863 So I moved to Australia and just worked and lived within that culture, and we built community there. 00:03:38.863 --> 00:03:44.703 And unfortunately, my dad, um, who was a very important part of my life, he got sick and he passed away around the same time. 00:03:44.703 --> 00:03:48.123 And so I had to come back early from that trip, and we got to say goodbye. 00:03:48.583 --> 00:03:50.853 You know, we just talked about like, this is it. 00:03:50.853 --> 00:03:52.363 Like, you gotta, you gotta choose a thing. 00:03:52.363 --> 00:03:57.013 And so I was like, you know, I, I never really loved school. 00:03:57.043 --> 00:04:03.783 I'm a proud graduate of Denver Public Schools, but I was like, "I'm gonna go and at least sub." And so I got a, a four-day substitute job. 00:04:04.573 --> 00:04:11.353 For those of you that entered the career as subs, you know how fun that is to get your first short-term contract role. 00:04:11.403 --> 00:04:23.623 And I, I was a science teacher for an English language development classroom at Merrill Middle School in Denver, Colorado, and this is in fall of '06, so this is under an NCLB, right, No Child Left Behind era. 00:04:24.723 --> 00:04:27.503 And the students couldn't pronounce my last name. 00:04:27.503 --> 00:04:31.023 Like, you did a great job today, Knaus, but so I go by my middle name, Lee. 00:04:31.773 --> 00:04:35.453 And by that, that fourth day, I was a terrible teacher. 00:04:35.503 --> 00:04:41.723 Like, in terms of, of setting up the conditions for students to make connections and to learn, I was really bad at that. 00:04:42.303 --> 00:04:52.123 But in terms of relationships and making kids feel seen and valued, I was like, "I, I like this. I get energy from this." And the kids really, they were, they were sad that I was gonna leave that day. 00:04:52.683 --> 00:05:00.793 So I went and I talked to the principal, and I was like, "Whatever jobs you have, I'm back." And then sure enough, 'cause we all know what it means to run schools, and if you run schools, that means you have folks on leave. 00:05:01.463 --> 00:05:08.483 And I got, um, four or five different long-term sub jobs, and then the next year they hired me on full-time to teach in an ELD classroom. 00:05:09.043 --> 00:05:12.313 Um, and it was the most formative work. 00:05:12.313 --> 00:05:15.413 Now again, in hindsight, I was not a good teacher at all. 00:05:15.723 --> 00:05:25.513 I cannot say that I genuinely helped those students make significant l-language or learning gains in the areas that I wanted to, but I did help them build curiosity, and we did build relationships. 00:05:25.513 --> 00:05:26.813 I've gone to some of their weddings. 00:05:26.813 --> 00:05:28.993 A couple of them are now teachers themselves now. 00:05:29.443 --> 00:05:33.133 And that, that relational part of it for me, I was like, that's just a core function of education, right? 00:05:33.133 --> 00:05:36.333 Kids wanna have healthy relationships with adults. 00:05:36.613 --> 00:05:41.503 They wanna have-- They wanna see themselves in different lights and professions and role models, and so I tapped into that 00:05:43.507 --> 00:05:43.837 Mike Caldwell: All right. 00:05:43.837 --> 00:06:06.207 As we were talking, um, we got cut off by some technology issues, but you were, you were subbing, kind of found your, found your stride really connecting with kids, building relationships, and, uh, in some way that led you to leading, uh, you know, as a senior director at, at the Colorado League of Charter Schools- Yeah 00:06:06.207 --> 00:06:08.097 opening a- Yeah ... a micro school. 00:06:08.097 --> 00:06:10.287 So build the bridge. 00:06:10.287 --> 00:06:11.037 How did we get there? 00:06:11.317 --> 00:06:11.597 Bill Knous: Yeah. 00:06:11.997 --> 00:06:12.307 Yeah. 00:06:12.337 --> 00:06:14.487 There's the couple more chapters to this story. 00:06:14.487 --> 00:06:14.767 Mike Caldwell: Yeah, no kidding. 00:06:14.767 --> 00:06:23.849 Bill Knous: So I really, I was very good at connecting with my students that English was their bridge language Right. 00:06:23.849 --> 00:06:36.479 So these were students from Eastern, Western, Central Africa, students from the Balkans, um, from, you know, very, very rural parts of Southeast Asia, and the only way they could communicate was through English. 00:06:36.479 --> 00:06:48.979 But then I also had a lot of Spanish speakers, and they had a linguistic bridge, and I had a very hard time trying to, like, manage a classroom, build engagement with them, and really build, like, really strong literacy skills by the end of my second year. 00:06:49.009 --> 00:06:59.599 So, you know, I had stopped my world traveling and learning, and my dad, um, had transitioned, and I was like, he wanted me to do this, so I'm gonna go do it again. 00:06:59.599 --> 00:07:02.509 And so I went, and I got a job teaching abroad in Spain. 00:07:03.329 --> 00:07:09.519 Um, and I was placed in a really tiny village called Finiana, which is about... It's really in the middle of nowhere. 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:14.119 But you, you cannot get there unless you're-- It's about an hour car drive from any major city. 00:07:15.059 --> 00:07:19.769 The first day that I was there, I met my wife, and we were crossing a street called La Gran Via de Colon. 00:07:21.009 --> 00:07:23.019 La Gran Via is the same name- Yeah ... as our micro school. 00:07:23.049 --> 00:07:23.269 Yeah. 00:07:23.929 --> 00:07:24.289 Exactly. 00:07:24.339 --> 00:07:27.429 So we, we literally met at- I think when I was searching for 00:07:27.429 --> 00:07:30.279 Mike Caldwell: Gran Via, I think something in 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:30.729 Bill Knous: Spain 00:07:30.729 --> 00:07:32.269 Mike Caldwell: showed up first, and it's like, "No, 00:07:32.269 --> 00:07:33.849 Bill Knous: Gran Via, Colorado." Hundred percent, 00:07:34.029 --> 00:07:34.139 Mike Caldwell: yeah. 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:34.349 So, okay. 00:07:34.409 --> 00:07:34.469 Bill Knous: Yeah. 00:07:34.469 --> 00:07:34.819 Carry on. 00:07:35.469 --> 00:07:36.029 Yeah, yeah. 00:07:36.029 --> 00:07:38.989 And so for your listeners, right, who've, like, spent time abroad, they're, they're... 00:07:39.019 --> 00:07:39.689 I, I, I don't know. 00:07:39.719 --> 00:07:44.989 I... We, we just think that learning very much is a nonlinear pathway. 00:07:45.289 --> 00:08:02.709 Like, you talk to any one person- Oh, sure ... about what they remember about their K-12 or even their K to 16 schooling experience, it's excursions, it's things outside the classroom, and all of the knowledge that aggregates into skills and experiences and heuristics is not formed through one-size-fits-all models, in our belief. 00:08:03.899 --> 00:08:08.009 So we, again, met in this very romantic, fortuitous way. 00:08:08.009 --> 00:08:08.819 We're still married today. 00:08:08.819 --> 00:08:10.019 We have two young boys. 00:08:10.049 --> 00:08:16.099 Uh, you know, it is not hyperbole to say it, it did change my life and our lives crossing that street together. 00:08:17.059 --> 00:08:25.119 So we spent that year, uh... The educational experience was somewhat formative, but it was, it was more just about the immersing in culture, building the linguistic background. 00:08:25.119 --> 00:08:32.949 So then I came back, and I taught here, uh, at the New America School, uh, which our, our current governor, Governor Jared Polis, founded. 00:08:33.369 --> 00:08:43.669 Uh, it was a charter school, and I taught there for a year, and then I was like, I... My, my wife, uh, my fiancée at the time, she had moved back to Philly, where she's from, and I was like, "We have to be together." 00:08:44.169 --> 00:08:47.899 And so I, I moved to Philly for two years, and I taught in Philly public schools. 00:08:47.899 --> 00:08:49.059 I went to Villanova. 00:08:49.699 --> 00:08:51.069 That was extremely formative, right? 00:08:51.069 --> 00:09:03.279 For anybody who's ever served in Philly public schools, right, those amazing kids and families and amazing staff, and a really, really hard to navigate system that is rife with corruption and incompetence, and it's not the people. 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:11.089 It is-- That is a truly s- uh, it's a system that I have... do not believe that any system that functions like that can effectively serve a wide range of kids. 00:09:11.169 --> 00:09:11.229 Yeah. 00:09:11.851 --> 00:09:17.031 So these experiences just kept on informing us, and, you know, we-- At the time, the job market was really hard. 00:09:17.031 --> 00:09:19.431 I guess this is two thousand and eleven or something. 00:09:20.101 --> 00:09:22.491 And, uh, we both have master's degrees. 00:09:22.491 --> 00:09:29.871 She was at UPenn, I was at Nova, and we were like, "We have to go abroad again 'cause we can't get jobs here in Philly," even though we were already plugged into the system. 00:09:30.921 --> 00:09:36.881 And we ended up going to, uh, a little city called Manizales in Colombia in South America. 00:09:37.381 --> 00:09:41.691 So for those of you international folks that know, uh, the international circuit, right? 00:09:41.691 --> 00:09:56.011 It's a part of the Big Twelve down there, and so really great school, and we had a really good, uh, visionary director, Dr. Robert Sims, who currently leads, um, like the Eastern Association on-- of, uh, International School Authorizers right now. 00:09:56.061 --> 00:09:59.551 Um, Dr. Sims, if you're listening, can't, can't wait to talk to you again soon, sir. 00:10:00.411 --> 00:10:03.861 He b- he brought us down there, and it was, it was just an incredibly formative experience. 00:10:03.891 --> 00:10:05.881 Uh, my teaching, that was the best years I ever had. 00:10:05.911 --> 00:10:17.605 I just got a text message this morning from a student who just got the highest honor from Columbia University's architecture program Very cool. 00:10:17.945 --> 00:10:21.655 Very cool I'm tempted to r- I'm tempted to read it to you, but I'll save it for another time, Mike. 00:10:21.705 --> 00:10:24.735 Um, but it's- Feel, feel- That was really informative ... free to read it if you would like. 00:10:24.875 --> 00:10:26.175 Yeah Yeah, let's do this Yeah Let's do this. 00:10:26.175 --> 00:10:31.305 For, for anybody, anybody who gets these things from, from your, your phone- No, those are huge ... this is just so cool Yeah, those are huge Yeah. 00:10:31.345 --> 00:10:33.745 So, so, so this is from Valeria Ramirez. 00:10:33.795 --> 00:10:46.265 Um, and I know you all can't see this, but I'm just verifying this for Mike that this is- Yep, legit ... it's a real thing, Spence Verified This is legit Yeah Said, "Hey, Mr. Knauss, just wanted to share with you that I graduated from my master's at Columbia, and I won the highest prize in my program. 00:10:46.265 --> 00:10:47.345 I still cannot believe it. 00:10:47.675 --> 00:10:55.335 Feels like yesterday that we were speaking about my plans of coming and how I didn't even know I was gonna make it, and here I am now." And yeah, she just wanted to share it. 00:10:55.335 --> 00:10:57.745 And so, um- Ah, love that. 00:10:57.825 --> 00:10:59.165 Love that Yeah, right? 00:10:59.165 --> 00:11:03.085 Just, like... And, and look, in anybody who's ever served, like, we all have those stories. 00:11:03.085 --> 00:11:04.095 Like, you make those connections. 00:11:04.095 --> 00:11:12.215 But those years, I got really, really good at building essential questions, at building units where kids really had to think. 00:11:12.215 --> 00:11:14.225 I taught, like, five different grade levels, right? 00:11:14.225 --> 00:11:17.655 I taught US history, world history, geopolitical affairs. 00:11:17.655 --> 00:11:18.965 I taught the AP course. 00:11:19.555 --> 00:11:27.735 It was a ton of work, and then because of that, I had developed a lot of leadership and a lot of relationships, and my school asked me to move into leadership. 00:11:27.735 --> 00:11:35.115 And they said, "Why don't you take on the secondary school principal job?" And I, I think I'm, like, 31 or something at the time, and I was like, "This is a mistake. 00:11:35.315 --> 00:11:39.725 Like, you all- ... you all have to know that I'm really bad at things for a couple years. 00:11:39.755 --> 00:11:44.735 It's gonna take me a while." But they, you know, it's a very communal place, and they were like, "We believe in you." 00:11:44.735 --> 00:11:47.895 And that was, that was, it was a, it was a very, very formative experience. 00:11:47.895 --> 00:11:57.065 Again, just like Merrill Middle School, Mike, those first, that first year of principalship, I feel so bad for the people that were there on the other side of my leadership. 00:11:57.665 --> 00:12:01.765 Just, you know, like- It probably wasn't- ... weekend stays ... as bad as you think No, no, no. 00:12:01.795 --> 00:12:02.935 I think, I mean, I, I don't know. 00:12:02.935 --> 00:12:06.105 Cer- certain people, I think, are really trained up for jobs. 00:12:06.105 --> 00:12:13.805 I had always just sort of learned through doing and, and, you know, unfortunately, I think we all make mistakes in education, and that's, that's just, again, part of the nonlinear grand via. 00:12:13.835 --> 00:12:16.295 I think that is a part of, of, of each of our journeys. 00:12:16.925 --> 00:12:22.175 Um, second year I got a lot better, you know, stronger planning, stronger relationships, better execution. 00:12:22.175 --> 00:12:28.575 We overhauled the schedule, increased the AP classes, built a, built in a, a competency-based assessment system. 00:12:28.575 --> 00:12:29.625 I mean, it was a ton of work. 00:12:29.625 --> 00:12:38.577 Wow And it was, it was really, really important We, we had some things happen at home, and we really wanted to stay, but we were like, "Ah, I think it's time to come home." 00:12:38.697 --> 00:12:38.757 Yeah. 00:12:38.757 --> 00:12:44.867 So came, came back here in 2017, led at, uh, DSST Public Schools for six years through the pandemic. 00:12:44.867 --> 00:12:49.517 DSST, for those of you who don't know, is the Denver School for Science and Technology. 00:12:49.627 --> 00:12:56.767 Uh, it is one of Colorado's highest performing, um, college and career-focused, um, STEM networks. 00:12:56.767 --> 00:12:57.797 It's a charter network. 00:12:57.797 --> 00:12:59.867 They currently have 16 campuses. 00:13:00.327 --> 00:13:02.167 It is... It, it's not a job. 00:13:02.167 --> 00:13:03.457 Like, it is an occupation. 00:13:03.517 --> 00:13:04.607 It is serious work. 00:13:05.227 --> 00:13:10.127 And again, I was not very good at it for the first year, and I got really good at it by the past couple years. 00:13:10.127 --> 00:13:17.457 And we, we started our family, and we kept talking about this micro-school the whole time, and then maybe I'll pause before I get into that. 00:13:17.457 --> 00:13:28.507 But, um, you know, had, had essentially spent almost 10 years in classrooms, almost eight years in leadership, and then was like, "I, I think it's time to do something a little bit different at the ecosystem level, and then start to pilot our idea." Yeah. 00:13:28.507 --> 00:13:29.027 So that's- 00:13:29.367 --> 00:13:29.627 Mike Caldwell: Love- 00:13:29.627 --> 00:13:31.387 ... Bill Knous: mostly what brought me up to this point in my career. 00:13:31.507 --> 00:13:32.397 Mike Caldwell: Yeah, love the journey. 00:13:32.397 --> 00:13:48.577 What a, what a broad, um, I guess, diverse kinda set of experiences, from even going back to your experience in Australia before you got into teaching and, uh, international schools, and then having the experience to, to lead a high-performing school in Colorado. 00:13:48.577 --> 00:13:49.927 That's, that's pretty impressive. 00:13:50.907 --> 00:13:52.337 So let's sh- shift gears a little bit. 00:13:52.337 --> 00:13:56.297 A lot of people may or may not know kinda what a micro-school is. 00:13:56.347 --> 00:13:58.567 Um, so- Mm ... let's, let's maybe start there. 00:13:58.567 --> 00:14:08.137 What... It's, it's... It seems like a, you know, it... It's not new, but it's, it seems like it's growing in traction across the, the US- Mm ... the micro-school movement. 00:14:08.247 --> 00:14:10.377 Um, and yeah. 00:14:10.377 --> 00:14:15.487 And then specifically, what's, what is the approach that you're taking with Grand Via as a micro-school? 00:14:17.907 --> 00:14:18.767 Bill Knous: I love the question. 00:14:18.767 --> 00:14:21.247 I'm sure that your listeners are gonna be able to do better justice. 00:14:21.287 --> 00:14:32.597 I, I'd actually-- I have not read and, and I, I-- The best thought leaders in this space, I don't think we have a singular agreed upon definition of a micro-school other than there's agreement that it is smaller in scale. 00:14:33.597 --> 00:14:44.787 You know, when we think about the economics behind what it takes to run any type of educational institution, public or privately funded, um, that is certainly, uh, a core element of a micro-school. 00:14:44.787 --> 00:14:53.587 I think the other thing is that most micro-schools are very much responsive to or generated by community demand. 00:14:53.977 --> 00:14:55.477 Not that larger schools can't be. 00:14:55.607 --> 00:14:55.647 Mike Caldwell: Mm-hmm. 00:14:56.187 --> 00:14:59.677 Bill Knous: Um, and, and, and the other last thing I would say is micro-schools are certainly not new. 00:14:59.717 --> 00:15:02.257 I mean, you go back-- I, I've, I've been learning more about this. 00:15:02.997 --> 00:15:09.747 It is crystal clear that, you know, the one-room schoolhouse in itself is probably the earliest form of micro-school for those of us- Yeah. 00:15:09.747 --> 00:15:10.687 Okay ... who have researched it, right? 00:15:10.717 --> 00:15:10.777 Yeah. 00:15:11.277 --> 00:15:11.567 Right. 00:15:11.737 --> 00:15:22.167 Um, and then, and then even like the, the sort of renaissance of it, which may appear somewhere in the '70s, but, but folks have been thinking about how to create scalable, sustainable micro-schools for years. 00:15:22.977 --> 00:15:31.547 I think, um, for us at Gran Via, what we have encountered in what it means to be a micro-school within, like, our context 00:15:33.899 --> 00:15:41.749 You know, you look at an organization like VELA and, or vela, sorry, and they've done so much great work to incubate. 00:15:41.749 --> 00:15:45.639 We were actually a recipient of a VELA grant this past year, which is a huge step for us. 00:15:46.079 --> 00:15:58.329 Just, it's, it just, it's, it's so nice to have an organization that believes in you and says, "We see what you're doing for families and how, and how bought in you have families into this model." But if- Can you clarify, Bill, wh- when you say VE- VELA 00:15:59.029 --> 00:16:00.399 Mike Caldwell: for our, for our audience, what i- what 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:01.099 Bill Knous: is VELA? 00:16:01.099 --> 00:16:01.199 Yeah. 00:16:01.199 --> 00:16:01.999 What kind of organization? 00:16:01.999 --> 00:16:18.039 VELA is a national m- I'm, I'm gonna get this wrong, but it's like a national micro funding organization that explicitly focuses on grants of up to $10,000 for small micro community-driven models. 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:19.799 And they have a couple key elements they're looking for. 00:16:19.949 --> 00:16:24.329 They want, they wanna see, right, that families have skin in the game, that families are bought in. 00:16:24.329 --> 00:16:25.729 They wanna see that it's sustainable. 00:16:25.729 --> 00:16:28.229 They wanna see that it's serving a unique element and need. 00:16:28.789 --> 00:16:34.869 They're also funding things that aren't just solely about direct service delivery to kids, but within their portfolio. 00:16:34.899 --> 00:16:38.619 They went from a, like a handful of grants pre-pandemic. 00:16:39.219 --> 00:16:45.149 Now they have 5,000 different schools under their portfolio and hundreds of those that they funded. 00:16:45.779 --> 00:16:46.329 Yeah, that's amazing. 00:16:46.329 --> 00:17:03.489 And that, that to your question, I think is this at a national level, in a post-pandemic world where a lot of families are saying like, "The local one-size-fits-all thing is not a good fit for me and my kid." And whatever their reasons are, it's a, those are almost too vast to even create like containers for. 00:17:03.489 --> 00:17:03.809 Yeah, right. 00:17:04.779 --> 00:17:11.949 But invariably, the through line into all of that is that it's about trust and relationships and what they're looking for for their kids. 00:17:12.369 --> 00:17:17.829 And in most educational contexts, there is still not enough high quality choice for families 00:17:20.675 --> 00:17:25.385 Mike Caldwell: So micro schools, typically five to 20, um, ch- students. 00:17:25.385 --> 00:17:27.515 I mean, it's, it's kinda, kinda varies, right? 00:17:27.605 --> 00:17:35.285 Um, and oftentimes, yeah, it is kind of the, an extension of the homeschool maybe kind of structure potentially. 00:17:35.535 --> 00:17:36.715 How, how are they funded? 00:17:36.715 --> 00:17:39.105 I mean, is it, are they private schools, public? 00:17:39.335 --> 00:17:39.585 Yeah. 00:17:39.615 --> 00:17:39.655 Bill Knous: A 00:17:39.655 --> 00:17:40.035 Mike Caldwell: little bit of 00:17:40.035 --> 00:17:40.405 Bill Knous: both? 00:17:41.195 --> 00:17:41.255 Yeah. 00:17:41.765 --> 00:17:47.875 Um, this isn't a... I, I'm certainly not an expert, but I've been spending a lot of time in this space here in Colorado. 00:17:47.875 --> 00:17:58.175 So the answer I would give to that really good question is, if, if you look at states that have vouchers or ESAs, educational savings accounts, right? 00:17:58.175 --> 00:17:59.785 And that's growing around the country. 00:18:00.365 --> 00:18:15.145 There is a state-supported public funding mechanism that r- that re-empowers families to use a specific dollar amount to fund their child's education in a way, rather than sending them to their locally zoned school. 00:18:15.235 --> 00:18:25.475 And in those places, you've seen an explosion of micro schools that are doing four or five days a week, you know, in a wide range of what they're focusing on. 00:18:25.475 --> 00:18:28.505 But it, they're still focusing on literacy and math in some way, shape, or form. 00:18:29.005 --> 00:18:29.135 Yep. 00:18:30.135 --> 00:18:48.733 In a place like Colorado and other states that do not have ESAs or vouchers, we have a different funding mechanism that is called part-time enrichment funding or homeschool enrichment funding And that part-time funding's really interesting because it's been going through lots of changes. 00:18:48.733 --> 00:18:54.573 So essentially what it qualifies for is that it's half of the local per pupil revenue. 00:18:54.623 --> 00:18:57.113 So call that approximately about $10,000 a kid. 00:18:57.113 --> 00:19:04.403 It's more than that right now, but just for the listener's sake of understanding, and it equates to approximately $5,000 per student. 00:19:05.263 --> 00:19:10.353 It's, it's not very regulated, but that's going-- that's undergoing changes as we speak. 00:19:10.353 --> 00:19:17.493 If, if anybody Googles anything about part-time enrichment funding in Colorado, there's articles upon articles and lots of strong opinions to read about it. 00:19:18.183 --> 00:19:26.413 But the state is essentially looking at ways to ensure that that money is going to high-quality educational options and not just funding any random enrichment idea under the sun. 00:19:27.313 --> 00:19:29.413 The other way is all privately funded. 00:19:30.143 --> 00:19:34.163 What's really interesting here in Colorado is that we have a long history of micro schools, especially here in the urban area. 00:19:34.513 --> 00:19:38.423 What we don't have a lot of good examples of is sustainable micro schools. 00:19:38.563 --> 00:19:38.673 Mike Caldwell: Mm. 00:19:39.173 --> 00:19:43.083 Bill Knous: So here's, here's a predominant narrative that people have told me who are further along in the game. 00:19:43.083 --> 00:19:49.403 Again, and for your listeners, Granvia has been serving families since 2020, and we built very, very small. 00:19:50.093 --> 00:19:52.563 So we got two 4.0 fellowships. 00:19:52.563 --> 00:20:16.213 4.0s is a, is a little catalyzer incubator that runs out of New Orleans, and we got their tiny fellowship and their essentials fellowship, and that money allowed us to pressure test the idea of would families be interested in outdoor programming focused on real social, emotional, um, focus, you know, call it mindfulness, call it like understanding self, other, and world, and we found that families very much wanted that. 00:20:16.813 --> 00:20:38.703 And so we s- we literally went from six kids to eight kids to running camps to then serving families in a tiny fee for service model with caregivers and kids there to now we're serving 30 students multiple days per week, and we just got authorization to become a full-time charter school through the Colorado, um, charter school institute, what's called CSI here in Colorado. 00:20:38.703 --> 00:20:50.083 So Granvia built this very, very slow pathway to becoming a publicly funded, sustainable model because a lot of micro school operators, just like businesses, close down within seven years. 00:20:50.293 --> 00:20:50.503 Mike Caldwell: Yeah. 00:20:51.653 --> 00:20:53.013 Bill Knous: It's very easy to fund. 00:20:53.043 --> 00:20:54.153 It's very hard to sustain. 00:20:54.883 --> 00:21:08.257 Mike Caldwell: Are there times since 2020 that you didn't think it was gonna be able to sustain itself, or did you get, do you have any of those kind of critical moments as like, ah, are we gonna be able to open tomorrow or next week or next year? 00:21:09.287 --> 00:21:13.187 Bill Knous: Yeah, I mean, the, we, we like to lead with honesty and transparency. 00:21:13.187 --> 00:21:21.397 We just think that the more that we're, like, really sharing the reality that f- that we can equip people to make better decisions, and also, you know, we want people who wanna support us. 00:21:21.397 --> 00:21:31.447 And so one of the, the really honest things I would lead for your listeners, Mike, is, um, we didn't get paid to pressure test the model for four years. 00:21:32.537 --> 00:21:44.787 So to your question, yeah, I mean, basically every month we're like, "How could we possibly have a sustainable living and raise a family?" So we've always had to keep this as a part-time nights and weekends idea. 00:21:45.077 --> 00:21:45.137 Mm-hmm. 00:21:45.137 --> 00:21:52.097 And that, that's, that's like, there's, like, a real interesting tension there- Yeah, sure ... of how do you make something real for kids and families unless you go all in on it? 00:21:52.467 --> 00:21:52.597 Mike Caldwell: Mm-hmm. 00:21:52.697 --> 00:21:55.467 Bill Knous: And so luckily my wife is extremely talented. 00:21:55.467 --> 00:22:08.757 Again, she, you know, uh, you know, holds multiple degrees from Penn and is a trained mindfulness educator and is the opposite of me in all the great ways that, that we need to have equilibrium and balance in our relationship and our life. 00:22:09.307 --> 00:22:12.017 But we, I don't know how we would do it without both of us. 00:22:12.747 --> 00:22:16.807 So what's u- what's unique about Grandby is it, it's a co-founded model, not like a singular founder model. 00:22:17.087 --> 00:22:20.207 I do think a lot of micro schools tend to be sole founders. 00:22:20.337 --> 00:22:21.147 Not all, but many. 00:22:21.247 --> 00:22:21.437 Mike Caldwell: Mm-hmm. 00:22:22.387 --> 00:22:25.227 Bill Knous: You know, and just I'll, I'll give you one more example 'cause I think it's a good question. 00:22:25.227 --> 00:22:32.857 So we've worked for the last, again, years to build this model that would be sustainable. 00:22:32.857 --> 00:22:45.947 So we got the approval to become a homeschool enrichment funded micro school starting in the fall of '25, and it was a big deal for us, and we had to recruit families, and we got funded for 13 families, and we were serving 25 within a month. 00:22:46.457 --> 00:22:54.957 So we had way more families than we had funding for, and we said, "We will be a tuition-free public and open-to-all model," 'cause that is what is core to our mission and our beliefs. 00:22:57.041 --> 00:23:12.601 When we started with our board, we, we were like, "We're gonna have $3,000 in reserves." And we've been so judicious in our management of our fiduciary responsibilities that we're now on track to carry $50,000 in reserves this first year- Wow ... which is great for a little micro-school, right? 00:23:12.601 --> 00:23:12.751 Yeah. 00:23:12.781 --> 00:23:15.601 Like, so we- we're in a very healthy budgetary position. 00:23:16.051 --> 00:23:34.961 We also invested a ton of time and money with my board to go through a very intensive process with the local school district to get what's called a release of exclusive charting authority, lots of technical terms for your listeners, to, to this charter school institute, which is, uh, the only authorizer in the state that really understands micro-schools. 00:23:35.901 --> 00:23:39.511 That happened on Tuesday of this past week, and we were riding high, and we were crying. 00:23:39.511 --> 00:23:51.281 We were like- Congratulations ... "We can serve more families. Thank you." But then on Wednesday, our legislature passed an amendment that essentially caps our funding for next year at 13, even though we have 30 families on our books. 00:23:51.281 --> 00:23:53.821 So we now have a $90,000 delta we have to close. 00:23:53.871 --> 00:23:54.201 Oh, boy. 00:23:54.231 --> 00:23:56.831 But here's, here's what is interesting to us. 00:23:56.921 --> 00:24:15.921 We have always said it's a nonlinear path, and " Siempre decimos que abre una vía," which in Spanish means, "We will find a way." So our charge now is, is that we are going to figure out a different authorizing structure, work with the state, and figure out the funding mechanism, and if we can't, we're gonna fundraise our way, but we will not turn families away. 00:24:16.711 --> 00:24:26.611 And so this is just, like, a little window into the, I think, like, the leadership mindset that we believe that we have to take into this so that we can turn it into the only thing that we do. 00:24:27.171 --> 00:24:31.241 So my wife finally, Granby, is healthy enough that she'll be able to go full-time into it next year. 00:24:31.731 --> 00:24:36.671 She's been working as an MTSS coordinator at a local, uh, called the Denver Language School. 00:24:36.671 --> 00:24:38.941 It's a, it's a, it's a prominent multilingual school here. 00:24:39.521 --> 00:24:56.671 I will-- I'm gonna retain my role at the Colorado League because I'm still doing very important work for another year, and then maybe we'll be in a position next year to fully pivot and bring me on, you know, maybe like a .4 sort of like fractional ED until we have 60 students, and then it'll be a full-time job, and ideally it'll survive beyond our time. 00:24:57.321 --> 00:24:57.891 Mike Caldwell: Good work. 00:24:58.121 --> 00:24:58.691 Good work. 00:24:58.691 --> 00:25:05.681 Yeah, such a, I mean, parallel, you know, if you're a startup founder, whether it's education or whatever, very, very similar. 00:25:05.681 --> 00:25:08.861 I mean, you gotta just keep grinding until... and find a way, right? 00:25:08.861 --> 00:25:10.161 And, and that's what you're doing. 00:25:10.161 --> 00:25:26.771 It looks like you, you, you see the light, um, to make it happen, but I love that y- your commitment to the vision of what you're doing and, and not turning families away that wanna be part of it, and, uh, that's so important, and that'll lead to, eventually lead to success. 00:25:26.771 --> 00:25:28.331 Well, it's already leading to success. 00:25:28.871 --> 00:25:30.191 I'm curious what, what you think. 00:25:30.191 --> 00:25:38.081 Why do you believe more families, you know, are actively seeking these smaller, more personalized public education options right now? 00:25:41.403 --> 00:25:46.523 Bill Knous: Um, ah, this is so-- I've, I've tried to answer this so many times, and I feel like I miss it every time. 00:25:46.633 --> 00:25:56.463 I, I think what feels challenging about this is, is I run the montage of the 100-plus families that we've served and we've talked to. 00:25:56.463 --> 00:26:04.033 We've built a form of a relationship where we know something about what's going on in their personal lives and what they're looking for for their kids. 00:26:05.513 --> 00:26:29.065 It, uh, the, the simplest answer maybe is that everyone wants something that doesn't exist within the larger system, including within what Grand Via can offer And if I were to pull that back or maybe go like a, a click deeper into that and then look for themes, I might... There are a lot of families of students who they, they, they would likely describe their kids as being neurodivergent, diagnosed or undiagnosed. 00:26:29.065 --> 00:26:50.005 And I think you go into any kindergarten classroom, I did a ton of school visits this year, and in high Title I schools, low FRL schools, urban schools, suburban schools, rural schools, there was this trend of kindergartners, preschoolers, and first graders and people being like, "Whoa, we've never seen these behaviors. 00:26:50.145 --> 00:27:10.135 What-- why is our system not set up for this?" And all of the systems around MTSS and SPED and 504, everything within your traditional system, public and private and otherwise, that takes federal law, state law, and applies it to what families deserve, we actually still believe is a band-aid for the root gap that systems are not designed to serve all learners. 00:27:10.815 --> 00:27:17.385 'Cause they're, they're funded and they're designed for the compliance and the efficiency for the adults, not for the individualization of the students. 00:27:18.915 --> 00:27:20.685 Now, there are exceptions to this. 00:27:20.745 --> 00:27:26.025 Those are probably private more than not, and then therefore they're not e- equitable and accessible to all families. 00:27:26.025 --> 00:27:44.935 And so one of the things we just continue to reconcile with, and we don't have a solution for it yet, but we spend as much time as we physically can with families to listen and say, "What do you... Like, when your kid is their best, when they're not..." And I think all schools do this, but we do it again, and then we'll a- we'll call families and be like, "Today did-- we didn't think it went so well. 00:27:44.935 --> 00:27:46.645 What did, what, what did your learner say? 00:27:46.745 --> 00:27:50.535 Give us some feedback." And slowly they'll open up, and they'll really start to give us feedback. 00:27:51.235 --> 00:27:55.435 They have a really hard time when they show up in the first five minutes, and no one checks in on them. 00:27:55.535 --> 00:27:58.145 When they're trying to self-advocate for themselves, and they get brushed off. 00:27:58.175 --> 00:28:10.145 I mean, these little micro moments, and the more that we've tried to attune our program to those little, itty bitty moments that might happen in seconds in, in a, in a learner's early part of their day, it changes the trajectory. 00:28:11.335 --> 00:28:11.365 Mm-hmm. 00:28:11.495 --> 00:28:13.655 And I actually think our program has a super long way to go. 00:28:13.655 --> 00:28:17.535 Like, Granby is nowhere near the exceptional model that we want it to be in the next ten years. 00:28:17.535 --> 00:28:27.265 But the ability to res- to respond to what families are asking, and then this idea of like neurodivergence, again, particularly for the undiagnosed, I think every s- a- any school leader knows this. 00:28:27.265 --> 00:28:32.135 Like, you are talking to families, they're s- they're telling you, "Why does nobody get this? 00:28:32.135 --> 00:28:33.745 Why do I have to wait for all these things? 00:28:33.745 --> 00:28:41.975 Why-- How come this is happening?" And if you're having to manage this big system, it is very, very challenging to be nimble and responsive to that. 00:28:42.335 --> 00:28:56.863 So what we're most intrigued about is how do we scale the micro part where we keep the relationship super tight so the degrees of separation between decision and stakeholder are very, very tight While also making it sustainable. 00:28:56.893 --> 00:29:02.253 And we don't actually know how to do that yet, but we're gonna find a way because it's almost La Gran Via, and, like, that is our path. 00:29:02.303 --> 00:29:02.553 Mike Caldwell: Yeah. 00:29:02.843 --> 00:29:03.103 Yeah. 00:29:03.783 --> 00:29:05.943 Well, I think you articulated the answer really well. 00:29:05.943 --> 00:29:11.493 So if you're looking for, for, you know, how many, how many times you've answered the question- ... I think you nailed it on that one. 00:29:11.493 --> 00:29:12.213 I think you nailed it. 00:29:12.353 --> 00:29:13.363 Um, very well done. 00:29:13.433 --> 00:29:13.533 Yeah. 00:29:14.363 --> 00:29:23.223 You know, a lot of, um, times you hear, um, you know... And I had, uh, I don't have the, the charter background that you do. 00:29:23.223 --> 00:29:30.553 I've been kind of in, I've been in everywhere public, pri- um, traditional public and, and, and just work with charter school leaders more r- recently. 00:29:30.553 --> 00:29:50.543 But I... You often h-hear kind of questions about accountability and, um- Right ... you know, where maybe s- whether it's private or charter, whatever, they have, you know, maybe more room for innovation and, and more flexibility or autonomy, but then they're, they're questioned on the accountability piece. 00:29:51.313 --> 00:30:01.403 Um, one of the messages or kind of things I've, I've heard from you or, or learned from you is that innovation and accountability can coexist, and oftentimes do. 00:30:01.983 --> 00:30:14.533 Um, I'm curious on your take on how can public education create room, more room for innovation while still maintaining strong accountability, um, for students, families, et cetera? 00:30:15.953 --> 00:30:16.163 Bill Knous: Yeah. 00:30:17.103 --> 00:30:39.313 I... Man, I appreciate this question, and I, I will prepare... I've, I've, uh, growingly stronger opinions about this as I engage with a lot of decision-makers and who are superintendents who sit on local boards here in Colorado, some of which actually in, in neighboring states, and how they're thinking about this idea to the same question of like, how do we serve all these families? 00:30:39.313 --> 00:30:39.913 How do we innovate? 00:30:39.913 --> 00:30:43.043 But how do we do it within the constraints, particularly of declining enrollment? 00:30:43.043 --> 00:30:45.313 And so here's the answer I would give as it relates to accountability. 00:30:46.213 --> 00:31:02.523 I believe strongly that one of the biggest things that we repeatedly see is that even for people that work in charter schools or have worked in charter schools, they still are not able to know and say that charter schools, by law, are tuition-free, public, and open to all. 00:31:03.873 --> 00:31:10.883 The other thing most people are unaware of is that charter schools have to go through very, very intensive renewal periods every three to five years. 00:31:12.313 --> 00:31:14.493 Your traditional public schools do not have to do that. 00:31:14.643 --> 00:31:24.553 And in fact, at least here in Colorado, I can name any number of examples of schools that have been habitually low-performing, not for a year or five years or 10 years, for generations 00:31:26.553 --> 00:31:34.683 Generations where grandparent, parent, and child have all gone to the exact same school and it has had the exact same outcomes. 00:31:34.683 --> 00:31:39.373 It's measured by graduation rates, by literacy and proficiency, and by college access. 00:31:41.083 --> 00:31:46.763 How I think a lot about this is what is the purpose and how do we measure it? 00:31:48.073 --> 00:31:52.163 In many ways, I would actually posit that charter schools have lost a lot of their innovative step. 00:31:53.553 --> 00:32:02.693 Somewhat of that is a leadership challenge where people are falling into the compliance bucket of just checking the boxes without really thinking about, "What is my charge? 00:32:02.693 --> 00:32:03.673 What is my mission? 00:32:03.863 --> 00:32:09.733 How do I motivate and influence these people around me to do that?" It's very hard work for anybody who's doing it. 00:32:09.733 --> 00:32:16.053 You know, you're sixty to a hundred hours a week nonstop and very intense, but that is a life-changing motivation to have that. 00:32:17.013 --> 00:32:30.433 In traditional district schools, when I'm there, again, I believe that they're filled with great people, some, some very strong educators, but that system is designed to create predictable compliance for the adults 00:32:32.451 --> 00:32:37.031 It is not designed to push the boundary on what's possible for kids, and if it is, then show me the data. 00:32:37.591 --> 00:32:52.561 Here in Colorado, we continue to see that Black and Latino students, students that qualify for free and reduced lunch, if you attend a charter school versus not, you're talking about performance deltas in our state assessments of like 16 to 24 points for third and eighth graders. 00:32:53.401 --> 00:32:56.021 You aggregate that year over year, that matters for kids. 00:32:56.371 --> 00:33:02.281 Like, no one is satisfied with literacy rates in the country, or at least we shouldn't be, and charter schools have not solved for that. 00:33:02.311 --> 00:33:18.721 But at least here in Colorado, we have irrefutable data that's been verified by the Credo study that came out of Stanford that statistically, by and large, if you are attending a green charter school, you are having year-over-year measurably better outcomes and gains and more days of learning than you are if you're not. 00:33:19.041 --> 00:33:22.091 And I just-- Again, I don't actually think it's the quality of the teachers. 00:33:22.351 --> 00:33:24.271 I think it's about the design of the system. 00:33:25.811 --> 00:33:28.211 Mike Caldwell: Well, that leads me to my next question. 00:33:28.401 --> 00:33:57.891 If you could redesign one aspect of the system to better support the... all schools, traditional, charter, whatever, and maybe it's instilling some things that are working well for, for the charter space or could even go as far as the private schools and like what, what are those things that we're not blending or bringing over to the traditional model that would make a difference in the system design? 00:33:59.061 --> 00:33:59.471 Bill Knous: Yeah. 00:33:59.501 --> 00:34:07.241 Um, I actually think my hunch is that most listeners would agree, except if you're a lawmaker, and then I think that you probably hate what I'm about to say. 00:34:07.481 --> 00:34:14.501 Um, but here, here's some-- I, I, I don't know if this is-- I, I, I need to think more through this, but this is my belief. 00:34:15.731 --> 00:34:19.951 When I look at-- Let's go back to the example I gave you about Mountain Middle School, right? 00:34:19.951 --> 00:34:22.981 You asked about like what's the best sort of learning environment you've seen. 00:34:24.101 --> 00:34:35.387 When I, when I constantly think about why, and I'm telling people that why, I think There is something about what the system is designed to do for motivation for children. 00:34:36.427 --> 00:34:38.847 So let's put it into like m- simple math. 00:34:39.207 --> 00:34:47.107 There's approximately 42,000 to 64,000 instructional minutes that will happen for a given student in a given year, year over year over year. 00:34:48.157 --> 00:34:49.227 To what ROI? 00:34:50.827 --> 00:35:03.497 And no one... Like if you're a parent, if you're an educator, I, I know in my bones that every single person can think of 1,000 examples of a child being like, "Ugh, I don't wanna go," or, "I don't wanna do that," or like, "Do I have to?" 00:35:03.757 --> 00:35:03.987 Mike Caldwell: Mm-hmm. 00:35:04.627 --> 00:35:15.657 Bill Knous: And you look at any educational environment, public, private, h- but that's started to shift how we think about what's required and what directs and generates motivation. 00:35:17.147 --> 00:35:26.597 You cannot take a young child's brain and compel seat time and then expect that you're gonna get equal outcomes. 00:35:27.067 --> 00:35:37.947 Like it is crazy to me that we are still measuring seat time across most all of our 50 legislative bodies as the primary way in which we're gonna hold schools accountable. 00:35:38.167 --> 00:35:39.087 And why do we do that? 00:35:39.087 --> 00:35:41.067 Because it is easy to track. 00:35:41.387 --> 00:35:42.847 100%. And it's BS. 00:35:43.137 --> 00:35:45.557 It is BS 'cause it's not designed with kids in mind. 00:35:46.837 --> 00:36:16.545 And so to pull one other thread through, when we talk to those parents who are like, "My kid's neurodivergent," mostly what they're saying is, "My kid can't sit still all day," which is why our outdoor program is a current fit for them for some time, may not be in a while But there is something about this notion of like, we cannot treat the, the human developing brain like it is just going to be this static seat for that many minutes every single year over and over and over for consistency and predictability, and call that good enough. 00:36:16.585 --> 00:36:18.075 At some point, that has to break. 00:36:18.655 --> 00:36:32.455 Now, I actually think most schools would do it, like district schools too, but no one can because the law says... And then our funding follows that, and that is the thing that if we, if we said, "We're gonna do five years and we're gonna get rid of seat time. 00:36:32.785 --> 00:36:33.705 Go after outcomes. 00:36:33.705 --> 00:36:34.585 How do you wanna measure them? 00:36:34.585 --> 00:36:36.885 If you're not gonna use our way, prove it." I know it's messy. 00:36:37.115 --> 00:36:38.565 I know that we don't know how to track funding. 00:36:38.565 --> 00:36:40.525 I know that people are gonna take advantage of the system. 00:36:41.185 --> 00:36:42.045 What else are we gonna do? 00:36:42.405 --> 00:36:44.725 The exact same thing we've done for 150 years? 00:36:44.755 --> 00:37:02.285 I mean, they're, they're just... It's like, at what point in American history is a group of us going to get together at serious levels across the decision-making spectrum that are legislative, that are local, and say, "We are going to invest in serious pilots that, that break the system. 00:37:02.285 --> 00:37:09.225 We're not gonna hold everybody accountable to something that we can check a box around." And if you redesign systems that actually motivate kids, they'll do it. 00:37:09.225 --> 00:37:11.155 Kids are full- everybody knows this, that kids are fully capable. 00:37:11.155 --> 00:37:17.955 Which is why every school, last thing I'm gonna posit here, every school has one or more classrooms that are exceptional, right? 00:37:17.955 --> 00:37:19.475 Even, even the low-performing schools. 00:37:19.975 --> 00:37:23.835 There's always... It's like n- in that classroom, kids learn. 00:37:24.955 --> 00:37:25.325 Why? 00:37:26.315 --> 00:37:32.105 'Cause they've done something even within that imperfect container where they've started to press the rules and shifted the motivational structure. 00:37:32.475 --> 00:37:40.315 They have the relationships, and kids are bought in, probably not to the level that they could be in a, in a better structure, but it's, it's better than it is in the remainder of those environments. 00:37:40.315 --> 00:37:45.925 And if all of those things are even remotely true, Mike, maybe one of your listeners is like, "That's it. 00:37:45.925 --> 00:38:02.435 Let's go blow it up." We need to blow up seat time requirements at the, at, at state and district levels and give true autonomy for innovation 'cause otherwise what you're gonna have is like, you'll have the alpha-like schools that are only gonna be accessible to a tiny portion of the learning population, and that is inequitable. 00:38:02.535 --> 00:38:02.675 Mike Caldwell: Yep. 00:38:03.175 --> 00:38:05.925 Bill Knous: So we have to figure out something, 'cause I, I appreciate what they're doing. 00:38:05.925 --> 00:38:09.295 Like, they're also tapping into this idea of like, how do you generate motivation? 00:38:09.295 --> 00:38:12.405 And it's like, "You can't pay kids. You can't just let kids do that." Well, why not? 00:38:13.035 --> 00:38:13.305 Why? 00:38:13.595 --> 00:38:17.735 Because when all of us leave school, what do we do, right? 00:38:17.735 --> 00:38:19.035 What have, what have you done in your career? 00:38:19.035 --> 00:38:20.165 What have all of our listeners done? 00:38:20.195 --> 00:38:25.585 Nobody took a standard linear path after K-12 like we had the linear path when we were there. 00:38:25.955 --> 00:38:27.965 So everyone knows the system is incongruent. 00:38:28.035 --> 00:38:29.335 Everybody can point out flaws. 00:38:29.335 --> 00:38:39.621 But if there is one thing that I think is worth blowing up, blow up the seat time requirement Let's do it for 10 years, maybe a generation, and let's see what happens. 00:38:40.011 --> 00:38:40.441 Mike Caldwell: I'm down. 00:38:40.471 --> 00:38:41.021 Let's do it. 00:38:41.471 --> 00:38:41.701 Yeah. 00:38:41.731 --> 00:38:43.701 Whoever's listening, let's, let's make this happen. 00:38:43.701 --> 00:38:44.021 I agree. 00:38:44.021 --> 00:38:44.201 Come on, 00:38:44.201 --> 00:38:44.531 Bill Knous: somebody. 00:38:44.531 --> 00:38:45.251 Mike Caldwell: Yeah. 00:38:45.251 --> 00:38:46.391 Bill Knous: Email me, and let's talk. 00:38:46.391 --> 00:38:47.251 Yeah. 00:38:47.321 --> 00:38:47.931 Mike Caldwell: I agree with you. 00:38:47.981 --> 00:39:03.131 You know, and earlier you were talking about, you know, the design of, of the system, um, and I'm paraphrasing based on my own recollection, so it's a, you know, quasi-paraphrase, but is designed for the adults and not, not the students. 00:39:04.071 --> 00:39:20.861 And as you're talking about that, I'm thinking it's... I think of the adults as the lawmakers that are- Mm ... where, where sometimes it's convenient 'cause we can say this... We're, we have a, we have this metric that we're holding, holding schools accountable for. 00:39:20.861 --> 00:39:25.591 But is it, you know, is it actually making a difference in quality? 00:39:25.691 --> 00:39:32.031 And no, it's not, but it's easy to measure across the, the s- the system, and seat time is a really good example of that. 00:39:32.581 --> 00:39:34.081 Um, yeah. 00:39:34.371 --> 00:39:45.131 Um, I, I agree with you on the, on the seat time, um, i- issue and, uh, and, and, and, and relieving that, that constraint or making that change. 00:39:45.961 --> 00:39:47.241 Well, we're running out of time. 00:39:47.241 --> 00:39:50.091 I- there's a billion other questions I'd love to ask you. 00:39:50.151 --> 00:39:57.201 Um, I'm really intrigued now to go to that school in Colorado, and I'd love to come visit your, uh, your Grand Via school as well sometime. 00:39:57.201 --> 00:39:57.921 What, what- Yeah. 00:39:57.921 --> 00:39:58.051 Bill Knous: We'd 00:39:58.051 --> 00:39:58.301 Mike Caldwell: love- Is 00:39:58.301 --> 00:39:58.551 Bill Knous: it 00:39:58.551 --> 00:39:59.291 Mike Caldwell: Denver area- We'd 00:39:59.291 --> 00:39:59.441 Bill Knous: love to... 00:39:59.441 --> 00:40:00.071 Mike Caldwell: Yeah ... I, I assume? 00:40:00.071 --> 00:40:00.391 Is that 00:40:00.761 --> 00:40:03.191 Bill Knous: what- We, we, we currently operate out of a couple parks. 00:40:03.191 --> 00:40:06.391 The primary park we operate is just south of, of the Denver area. 00:40:06.391 --> 00:40:07.691 It's called Westlands Park. 00:40:07.851 --> 00:40:08.011 Mike Caldwell: Okay. 00:40:08.481 --> 00:40:15.201 Bill Knous: Um, we, we do have multiple locations that we're propping up in the next couple years, so be sure to email me before you come out, but we'd lo- we'd love to have you out. 00:40:15.321 --> 00:40:15.721 Mike Caldwell: That'd be cool. 00:40:15.861 --> 00:40:16.411 That'd be really cool. 00:40:16.941 --> 00:40:20.381 Um- Yeah ... so maybe two, two last questions. 00:40:20.381 --> 00:40:33.291 Despite the challenges that we've talked about with public education or just in education in general, I think there's a lot of challenges going around, um, what currently gives you the most hope about the future of education, whether it's in Colorado or, or, or nationally? 00:40:35.417 --> 00:40:42.657 Bill Knous: I, I continue to be pretty intrigued by what, like... I actually don't know how to define generations, by the way. 00:40:42.657 --> 00:41:10.207 But when I think about the generation or generations of kids that are currently experiencing the schooling system, and slowly how the paradigm is maybe tilting in a slightly different course, and I think about tipping points, it, it would not surprise me if there is what later generations describe as a serious shift in the whole of education, and it's not driven by adults and lawmakers, contrary to my prior example. 00:41:10.657 --> 00:41:26.917 It'll be driven by the folks that experienced a system, and I'm thinking about kids that were... experienced the pandemic, were born during the pandemic, who are growing up with narratives of like neurodivergence, and there's got to be third and fourth and fifth ways, and I can find different learning environments. 00:41:26.917 --> 00:41:44.547 Like I, I'm not sure that we've seen this many families and this many things pop up within the whole of the space, and a lot of proponents of like traditional public education see this as like an attack, and it's all gonna fall apart, and I think that that is a, that's a misframing because it assumes that it's like an external enemy who's trying to break it, and that's not true. 00:41:45.527 --> 00:41:47.607 Like talk to families, spend time with families. 00:41:47.607 --> 00:41:50.057 Go... I always say dwell, like dwell with people. 00:41:50.407 --> 00:41:54.057 We, we l- like eat, eat in their homes, use their bathrooms. 00:41:54.057 --> 00:41:59.147 They're not... Like live in the human condition with them, and then r- like rethink about what you're hearing. 00:41:59.147 --> 00:42:07.747 And, and I, I just continue to hear that families know that no one's gonna come and save them, and they're gonna find a way, or they're gonna do it on their own, and their kids are growing up with that narrative. 00:42:07.747 --> 00:42:13.657 So maybe by 2050, we, we, we do see something, and it comes from kids, right? 00:42:13.657 --> 00:42:15.037 Which is always my favorite thing, right? 00:42:15.087 --> 00:42:18.917 I, I think about my, my alumni who just got the highest degree, you know. 00:42:18.917 --> 00:42:30.777 And when I think about her in 10th grade, she was smart and capable, but she's made serious steps to go from this little city in Columbia to getting the highest honor at Columbia University here, here in New York. 00:42:30.777 --> 00:42:46.107 And that, that's the kind of stuff where I'm like, you can always trust in a next generation to be like, "Nah, we're not gonna, we're not gonna do the same thing." And that, that, that for me just gives me a lot of energy to think about how to support them and serve with them, uh, to be a part of something that could be meaningful for future generations. 00:42:47.027 --> 00:42:47.637 Mike Caldwell: Absolutely. 00:42:47.927 --> 00:42:48.057 Yeah. 00:42:48.057 --> 00:42:48.577 Well said. 00:42:49.367 --> 00:42:54.167 Well, last question that we usually end on is, what does it mean to you to be a transformative principal? 00:42:59.481 --> 00:43:01.911 Bill Knous: I think 00:43:04.155 --> 00:43:26.905 I think about how to measure what that would mean, and the, the best leadership I've ever experienced and the few times I believe that people have experienced it that I, that I may have gotten there, it was about the ability to influence and motivate a very, very diverse group of people across backgrounds, ages, around a singular mission. 00:43:28.085 --> 00:43:36.925 And then to help them shift their mindsets from we can't because to 1% a day small steps like that, that incremental progress. 00:43:36.925 --> 00:43:37.325 Yes. 00:43:37.835 --> 00:43:44.135 Um, if we had more time, there- man, there's some leaders here in Colorado, almost all are women, not, not surprisingly, and they're just phenomenal. 00:43:44.195 --> 00:43:49.975 Like I would follow, I would follow each one of them into an abyss if they called me right now and they're like, "We have to do something really hard." 00:43:50.365 --> 00:44:07.145 When I think about transformative leadership, it was, it was their ability to like be the vision holder, the communicator, the relationship builder, and then to steward this thing where... I just remember sitting in rooms where like six months ago all these people were like, "Ah, this can't work." And now they're like, "We can do this, and I want... 00:44:07.185 --> 00:44:19.085 I, I'm gonna s- I'm gonna retire at this job." And these were, you know... So like a- any time I think about the influence and motivation piece of leadership, that, that's what most, um, resonates with me when I think about it being transformative. 00:44:19.755 --> 00:44:20.035 Mike Caldwell: Love it. 00:44:20.365 --> 00:44:20.685 Love it. 00:44:21.435 --> 00:44:21.825 Very cool. 00:44:21.825 --> 00:44:24.905 Well, Bill, thank you so much for being part of this podcast today. 00:44:25.015 --> 00:44:27.065 Uh, I feel like we could have a part two and a part three. 00:44:27.065 --> 00:44:30.135 There's a lot, lot more questions- Yeah ... that I have on my list that we didn't get to. 00:44:30.135 --> 00:44:30.295 Yeah. 00:44:30.975 --> 00:44:48.495 And for our listeners wondering why, why does Mike keep interviewing all these charter school type people, it's because I've sent invites to even your traditional public school leaders and association leaders, and, uh, the charters are the ones that are responding. 00:44:48.495 --> 00:44:49.775 So Bill, thanks for responding. 00:44:49.895 --> 00:44:53.575 For, for those of you that are listening and maybe want to be on the podcast, reach out to me. 00:44:53.575 --> 00:44:56.205 I'd love to have a conversation with you as well. 00:44:56.545 --> 00:45:02.025 But Bill, so much g- good work happening on your end in Colorado, so thanks for the work that you do. 00:45:02.565 --> 00:45:09.125 And, uh, look forward to watching kind of what happens with, uh, Grand Via Micro School as you continue to develop that. 00:45:09.155 --> 00:45:11.155 So good work, and thanks again for being on the show. 00:45:11.522 --> 00:45:13.372 Bill Knous: Mike, thanks so much for having me, and take good care.