1 00:00:05,610 --> 00:00:06,900 Welcome back to count me in, 2 00:00:06,900 --> 00:00:10,620 IMA's podcast about all things affecting the accounting and finance world. 3 00:00:11,370 --> 00:00:15,390 I'm your host Mitch Roshong and today you will hear from Sylvana Caloni, 4 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,200 as she joins us for episode 142 of our series. 5 00:00:19,740 --> 00:00:22,080 Sylvana is a former equities fund manager, 6 00:00:22,290 --> 00:00:26,430 a professional certified coach and author of the book, Humble Crumbles. 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,780 She was an executive vice president when she was privileged to partner with an 8 00:00:30,781 --> 00:00:31,770 executive coach. 9 00:00:32,580 --> 00:00:36,330 She is now a leadership consultant committed to paying it forward by enabling 10 00:00:36,331 --> 00:00:39,720 clients to make an impact at their companies and in their communities. 11 00:00:40,860 --> 00:00:44,610 In this conversation, you will hear Sylvana discuss the value of failure, 12 00:00:45,060 --> 00:00:48,720 the benefits of clear communication and ways to propel business. 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:50,760 Let's head over and listen to her now. 14 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:57,931 Sylvana, 15 00:00:57,931 --> 00:01:01,170 I just want to thank you so much for coming on the count me in podcast today. 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:02,431 Thank you, Adam. 17 00:01:02,431 --> 00:01:07,200 I really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you and to explore failure 18 00:01:07,230 --> 00:01:11,790 and entrepreneurship and all sorts of different ideas coming from our book, 19 00:01:11,791 --> 00:01:13,050 Humble Crumbles. 20 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,460 So speaking of your book, Humble Crumbles, you say in that book, 21 00:01:17,461 --> 00:01:20,670 failure has a purpose and failure's a part of the process. 22 00:01:20,970 --> 00:01:25,140 So can you just start by giving us some more insight into that statement? 23 00:01:25,860 --> 00:01:26,970 Yeah, absolutely. 24 00:01:27,300 --> 00:01:32,160 So I guess we see across different cultures and across different 25 00:01:32,161 --> 00:01:35,370 types of businesses, if you like and academia, 26 00:01:35,730 --> 00:01:38,310 that there is a fear of failure. And we, 27 00:01:38,311 --> 00:01:42,900 as individuals often are constrained in what we do because of that fear of 28 00:01:42,901 --> 00:01:43,734 failure. 29 00:01:43,770 --> 00:01:48,390 It may be so great that we prevent ourselves from jumping in taking the leap and 30 00:01:48,391 --> 00:01:52,950 starting up a business, or perhaps we have started the business, 31 00:01:52,951 --> 00:01:57,840 but because of that fear of failure and because of a fear of not meeting the 32 00:01:57,841 --> 00:02:01,320 commitments we've made to our stakeholders, et cetera, again, 33 00:02:01,321 --> 00:02:03,180 it constrains what we can do. 34 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,170 So if you look at tech companies, for instance, 35 00:02:07,171 --> 00:02:11,130 you'll often hear the phrase fail fast, fail often, 36 00:02:11,430 --> 00:02:16,260 or if you look at scientific revolutions and innovations and 37 00:02:16,261 --> 00:02:19,710 how things have pivoted during this pandemic, actually, 38 00:02:20,070 --> 00:02:24,000 if there had not been failures, there wouldn't have been learning. 39 00:02:24,180 --> 00:02:26,370 There wouldn't have been multiple iterations. 40 00:02:26,371 --> 00:02:29,970 There wouldn't have been new responses to the challenges that are out there. 41 00:02:30,450 --> 00:02:33,930 So for Paul O'Donnell my co-author and I, 42 00:02:34,230 --> 00:02:39,180 the idea that failure is part of the process is that we do need 43 00:02:39,181 --> 00:02:43,470 to sort of remove ourselves from that view that 44 00:02:44,190 --> 00:02:46,350 it's first time only time, 45 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,520 and we're going to be successful from the get go, because in fact, 46 00:02:50,820 --> 00:02:55,680 most successful businesses have started out in some other form in their 47 00:02:55,681 --> 00:02:57,090 initial iterations. 48 00:02:57,450 --> 00:03:01,810 And it's the ability of the business owners and entrepreneurs to be 49 00:03:01,811 --> 00:03:05,050 flexible and to pivot and, you know, 50 00:03:05,051 --> 00:03:10,000 take on constructive criticism or take on impartial advice to modify 51 00:03:10,001 --> 00:03:14,380 their product or service, which means that ultimately it is successful. 52 00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:20,080 So when you look at these leaders who are having to transition and fail 53 00:03:20,081 --> 00:03:24,850 and become more successful, how do you, 54 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,420 you know, how do you understand what makes them tick? What do you, what, 55 00:03:27,421 --> 00:03:30,550 what can we do to, to look at these people and see what can, 56 00:03:30,580 --> 00:03:34,000 what can cause you to fail and keep coming back and keep coming back? 57 00:03:34,930 --> 00:03:39,670 It's a great point that I think one of the key points we're trying to make in 58 00:03:39,671 --> 00:03:43,810 Humble Crumbles it's that the failure of the 59 00:03:43,811 --> 00:03:48,010 business is often attributed to external factors. 60 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,050 So someone will say, well, you know, 61 00:03:50,051 --> 00:03:54,520 the economic environment deteriorated or technology changed 62 00:03:54,550 --> 00:03:59,470 or legislation was too prohibitive. And that's true. 63 00:03:59,471 --> 00:03:59,741 I mean, 64 00:03:59,741 --> 00:04:03,760 absolutely there can be external factors that impact the success or failure of a 65 00:04:03,761 --> 00:04:08,050 business. But what I found when I was an equity analyst and funds manager, 66 00:04:08,410 --> 00:04:12,910 was that more often than not the failure of a business was to do with 67 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,640 the owners or the leaders, 68 00:04:15,641 --> 00:04:20,170 the management of the companies and the problems I often saw were whether they 69 00:04:20,171 --> 00:04:24,490 were not self-aware. So they didn't have a sense of, okay, 70 00:04:24,491 --> 00:04:29,140 well what makes me tick? What, what are my drivers? What are my motivations? 71 00:04:29,410 --> 00:04:31,660 How do I make sense of my world? 72 00:04:32,381 --> 00:04:35,620 And in having that lack of self-awareness, 73 00:04:35,621 --> 00:04:40,510 they're not then able to engage successfully with others because they take the 74 00:04:40,511 --> 00:04:45,280 view that well, it's my way or the highway, or this is the way the world works. 75 00:04:45,281 --> 00:04:49,870 So they don't have an appreciation that their own norms, 76 00:04:49,930 --> 00:04:54,250 standards, practices, ways of behaving are not universal. 77 00:04:54,251 --> 00:04:59,020 They could differ with other people because other people have different 78 00:04:59,021 --> 00:05:03,400 cultural backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds, gender backgrounds, 79 00:05:03,401 --> 00:05:06,430 it could be a different set of, 80 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,810 drivers within an organization. And if at what we show in the book, 81 00:05:10,811 --> 00:05:13,480 Humble Crumbles, and it's full title is Humble Crumbles: 82 00:05:14,380 --> 00:05:18,640 Savoring the Crumbs of Wisdom From The Rise and Fall of Humble Pie. 83 00:05:19,210 --> 00:05:21,850 We share Paul O'Donnell's story. 84 00:05:21,851 --> 00:05:26,740 So Paul is my co-author and Paul like me had come from the financial services 85 00:05:26,741 --> 00:05:30,670 world. We had both worked at Bankers Trust. So BT co. 86 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:32,290 Us company. In fact, 87 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,250 even though we were both Australians and you can hear that in my accent. 88 00:05:36,821 --> 00:05:41,200 So we were working in Bankers Trust in Sydney, Australia, 89 00:05:41,290 --> 00:05:46,150 and Paul eventually left BT and started up a couple of his 90 00:05:46,151 --> 00:05:46,871 own businesses. 91 00:05:46,871 --> 00:05:51,850 So he's a serial entrepreneur and his first couple of businesses were in what 92 00:05:51,851 --> 00:05:56,740 you might call financial adjacent. So they were similar types of businesses, 93 00:05:56,741 --> 00:06:01,400 you know, financial advisory or publishing a financial material, 94 00:06:01,430 --> 00:06:03,230 fundraising, that type of thing. 95 00:06:03,470 --> 00:06:08,390 And then he wanted to go into a business that was more real in the sense of 96 00:06:08,391 --> 00:06:12,440 making something so humble pie was a 97 00:06:12,830 --> 00:06:17,780 business that manufactured pies for the retail sector. 98 00:06:18,020 --> 00:06:21,230 And then ultimately also he got into wholesale. So it was, 99 00:06:21,260 --> 00:06:24,470 it was pies that we eat sweet and savory pies that we eat. 100 00:06:24,950 --> 00:06:29,330 And he came from that financial services background with the number of 101 00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:34,640 ways of seeing the world behaving and business traditions, if you like, 102 00:06:34,641 --> 00:06:37,790 or business practices that certainly worked for him, 103 00:06:38,210 --> 00:06:43,040 but there were others that were more relevant to financial services, 104 00:06:43,041 --> 00:06:47,540 but not so much to a factory where he had people in the 105 00:06:47,660 --> 00:06:52,490 factory kitchen making the pies or sweeping the floors or delivering the 106 00:06:52,491 --> 00:06:54,080 pies to the shops, et cetera. 107 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:59,030 So what we found Paul was blindsided in that he 108 00:06:59,031 --> 00:07:03,140 just assumed for instance, that the factory workers would, like him, 109 00:07:03,410 --> 00:07:08,060 have a view around equity as a way of incentivizing 110 00:07:08,061 --> 00:07:12,410 behavior or around bonuses as a way of, you know, 111 00:07:12,650 --> 00:07:17,090 promoting work, et cetera. Whereas these people had different concerns, 112 00:07:17,091 --> 00:07:20,600 different cares, you know, for them the weekly pay pack. 113 00:07:20,601 --> 00:07:22,190 It was what was really important, 114 00:07:22,430 --> 00:07:25,760 not some notion of equity or a bonus at the end of the year. 115 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,080 So the blind sidedness or the lack of Paul's self-awareness, 116 00:07:30,410 --> 00:07:32,720 which he courageously, I have to say. I mean, 117 00:07:32,721 --> 00:07:37,400 he fesses up basically in the book and looks at some of the errors he made 118 00:07:37,790 --> 00:07:38,810 with. I think, 119 00:07:39,410 --> 00:07:44,090 I think he's very generous and very courageous in doing that because what he's 120 00:07:44,091 --> 00:07:49,070 doing is he's demonstrating how sometimes the very things that we think 121 00:07:49,071 --> 00:07:50,180 are our strengths, 122 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:55,310 if taken to an extreme can actually turn into a weakness or can 123 00:07:55,311 --> 00:07:58,610 turn into a vulnerability in a negative sense. 124 00:08:00,510 --> 00:08:03,270 That almost makes me think of too much of a good thing, 125 00:08:03,271 --> 00:08:05,760 becomes a bad thing when you say that. 126 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,510 Absolutely. Absolutely. And to your point earlier, 127 00:08:09,511 --> 00:08:12,840 and I guess I went a little off base, but you're asking me, 128 00:08:12,841 --> 00:08:17,640 how do we know if managers or leaders are likely to have 129 00:08:17,641 --> 00:08:19,200 failures or create phase? 130 00:08:19,470 --> 00:08:24,060 And my point about the self-awareness was that often 131 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:29,580 what I would see when I was an equity analyst is when a manager or leader of a 132 00:08:29,581 --> 00:08:33,690 company got onto the front pages of Newsweek business week, 133 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,870 wall street journal, quite frequently, thereafter, 134 00:08:37,380 --> 00:08:40,740 the company would go down the tubes or at least would not do as well. 135 00:08:40,980 --> 00:08:43,980 And that was because those leaders were very egocentric. 136 00:08:44,310 --> 00:08:46,500 They were very much about, you know, 137 00:08:46,830 --> 00:08:51,420 puffing their own chests and they weren't necessarily engaged with their own 138 00:08:51,421 --> 00:08:55,380 teams and succession plans and understanding the different communication styles 139 00:08:56,220 --> 00:08:59,430 or the different working styles, or, you know, 140 00:08:59,671 --> 00:09:01,230 what were the values of the firm? 141 00:09:01,260 --> 00:09:05,910 How did the employees feel aligned with the firm, et cetera? 142 00:09:05,911 --> 00:09:09,960 So where there is a high likelihood of failure, 143 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:13,440 because as I say, the leader or the business owner, 144 00:09:13,441 --> 00:09:18,240 the entrepreneur isn't sufficiently self-aware to know that his or 145 00:09:18,241 --> 00:09:21,420 her way of seeing the world is not universal. 146 00:09:21,780 --> 00:09:25,740 Other people respond differently. Other people have different standards, 147 00:09:25,741 --> 00:09:28,560 different norms, different practices. 148 00:09:29,670 --> 00:09:33,330 That's really interesting that you say that, there's even in the sporting world, 149 00:09:35,191 --> 00:09:40,170 there's a video game called Madden and the person who would be 150 00:09:40,171 --> 00:09:41,220 highlighted each year, 151 00:09:41,221 --> 00:09:44,460 the next year after they were highlighted on the cover of that one would have a 152 00:09:44,461 --> 00:09:47,850 very bad year as in terms of their performance in the game. 153 00:09:47,851 --> 00:09:51,360 And I wonder if it's that same kind of, thing that you're mentioning about that, 154 00:09:51,570 --> 00:09:54,330 where they're so focused on themselves that they lose sight on what they're 155 00:09:54,331 --> 00:09:56,970 supposed to be doing from day to day. And that, that self-awareness. 156 00:09:57,450 --> 00:09:58,470 Yeah, I think so. 157 00:09:58,471 --> 00:10:03,150 And sometimes they can generate a sort of a false sense of security 158 00:10:03,151 --> 00:10:07,380 or a complacency actually, often you find that people become, 159 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:09,840 and we mentioned it earlier about too much of a good thing. 160 00:10:10,050 --> 00:10:14,370 Sometimes people become so confident in their 161 00:10:14,371 --> 00:10:18,180 strengths that they just think they're infallible, you know, 162 00:10:18,181 --> 00:10:19,790 that they walk on water or that, 163 00:10:19,791 --> 00:10:24,630 that particular way they've done something works in all situations. But again, 164 00:10:24,631 --> 00:10:28,770 going back to that key point of self-awareness, if you're self aware, 165 00:10:29,010 --> 00:10:33,690 you'll recognize that the model you use or the way you 166 00:10:34,020 --> 00:10:38,970 solve a problem is relevant to a specific set of circumstances and may 167 00:10:38,971 --> 00:10:43,230 not be relevant across the board. And if you are self-aware, 168 00:10:43,260 --> 00:10:48,090 you're more likely then to be curious and ask other people, 169 00:10:48,091 --> 00:10:51,330 well, how do you see it? You know, how would you approach this problem? 170 00:10:51,530 --> 00:10:55,200 What am I missing out on? Where am I blind here? You know, 171 00:10:55,350 --> 00:10:57,450 I've been successful in this thing before, 172 00:10:57,451 --> 00:11:01,890 but tell me what you think might be different this time around. And, in fact, 173 00:11:01,891 --> 00:11:05,610 that's another point we make frequently in the book, Humble Crumbles is that, 174 00:11:06,090 --> 00:11:10,500 you know, for you to succeed, you need, you, you clearly need conviction. 175 00:11:10,501 --> 00:11:13,290 You know, entrepreneurs believe their stuff, right? 176 00:11:13,370 --> 00:11:18,180 They believe that their product or service is going to solve a problem that 177 00:11:18,181 --> 00:11:23,010 exists out there, and they can become again, 178 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:27,270 too much of a good thing in that they can become so stubborn about that idea, 179 00:11:27,570 --> 00:11:31,920 that they don't do the testing, learning, and tweaking, or the, you know, 180 00:11:31,921 --> 00:11:35,700 the shifting in, well, how could this product be better? 181 00:11:35,701 --> 00:11:39,780 Or how could this service not be working here? You know, 182 00:11:39,781 --> 00:11:44,100 what are the nuances of this particular market or this sub segment of the 183 00:11:44,101 --> 00:11:48,450 market? So that idea of continually testing and tweaking, 184 00:11:48,451 --> 00:11:51,930 being curious, asking for impartial advice, 185 00:11:52,290 --> 00:11:53,470 not being offended, 186 00:11:53,471 --> 00:11:57,580 if someone sort of mentioned to you that there's some aspect of your product or 187 00:11:57,581 --> 00:12:02,380 service that, you know, just doesn't work or it's complicated, 188 00:12:02,381 --> 00:12:05,140 or, you know, doesn't really meet the demand. 189 00:12:06,730 --> 00:12:08,770 So it's almost like I hear you saying that, like, 190 00:12:08,771 --> 00:12:13,180 things like clear communication and connections are like a very essential part 191 00:12:13,270 --> 00:12:14,103 of business. 192 00:12:14,350 --> 00:12:18,340 So how can you like nurture your network to make sure that you have those people 193 00:12:18,341 --> 00:12:21,580 that you can have those almost fierce conversations with to, 194 00:12:21,581 --> 00:12:24,850 to be brutally honest, to help your business succeed and go further? 195 00:12:25,570 --> 00:12:27,460 Yeah, absolutely. That's, that's a great point. 196 00:12:27,461 --> 00:12:31,270 So the networks are really critical and, you know, 197 00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:35,290 often people talk about someone's who self-made millionaire or a self-made 198 00:12:35,291 --> 00:12:37,570 entrepreneur, or self-made something else. 199 00:12:38,050 --> 00:12:41,830 And I get that point to the extent that they may not have inherited their 200 00:12:41,831 --> 00:12:45,550 business or, or whatever the successes they're millions, 201 00:12:45,970 --> 00:12:49,480 but they're not self-made in the sense that they don't do it on their own. 202 00:12:49,570 --> 00:12:51,730 Nobody does things on their own. 203 00:12:52,030 --> 00:12:56,650 They will have been someone who's advised them, someone who's supported them, 204 00:12:56,651 --> 00:12:59,350 someone who's championed them, or for that matter, 205 00:12:59,351 --> 00:13:03,910 there may be someone who's been an obstacle who's criticized. And, you know, 206 00:13:03,911 --> 00:13:08,590 sometimes we hear of great leaders or great entrepreneurs who sort of had a 207 00:13:08,591 --> 00:13:12,790 grudge match as it were, it was a teacher, maybe in their youth or a, 208 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:13,631 you know, 209 00:13:13,631 --> 00:13:17,860 a stern dad or someone who sort of told them that they were never going to 210 00:13:17,861 --> 00:13:21,190 succeed. So they went out of their way to prove them wrong. 211 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,820 And that gives them the catalyst or the impetus to go out and, you know, 212 00:13:24,850 --> 00:13:28,630 keep working at it and improving the product or service. 213 00:13:29,050 --> 00:13:33,700 And as you say, you need a network, you need to cultivate a network. And I mean, 214 00:13:33,701 --> 00:13:38,650 that from a positive sense, I don't mean it from an manipulative sense, 215 00:13:39,010 --> 00:13:43,720 but ideally what you would do within your network is it you'd go out and 216 00:13:43,721 --> 00:13:46,870 find people who sure, are like you, 217 00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:50,950 because it's easier to communicate with people who have a similar view of the 218 00:13:50,951 --> 00:13:55,720 world or a similar sense of values or similar things that they're passionate 219 00:13:55,721 --> 00:13:56,350 about, 220 00:13:56,350 --> 00:14:00,640 but you also want to find the naysayers or the people who have very different 221 00:14:00,641 --> 00:14:02,530 lived experiences from you, 222 00:14:02,950 --> 00:14:07,930 because that will actually help you in terms of testing your idea and testing 223 00:14:07,931 --> 00:14:10,990 your blind spots and helping you with risk. 224 00:14:11,230 --> 00:14:16,060 Because if you're only mixing with the people who had the same ideas as 225 00:14:16,061 --> 00:14:18,940 you, then you're like, it's like group think, right? 226 00:14:19,180 --> 00:14:23,770 The financial crisis of 2008, 2007, 8, 9, 227 00:14:24,070 --> 00:14:24,611 to me, 228 00:14:24,611 --> 00:14:28,360 a large part of that was everybody was on the same merry-go-round and people 229 00:14:28,361 --> 00:14:33,280 weren't listening to the signs that things were going astray. 230 00:14:33,550 --> 00:14:34,660 And there were too many yes people. 231 00:14:35,470 --> 00:14:40,240 So the idea of cultivating a network and making sure that you find people 232 00:14:40,510 --> 00:14:44,590 who are very different from you and have very different lived experiences, 233 00:14:44,890 --> 00:14:48,430 I think is critical to success and minimizing failure, 234 00:14:48,730 --> 00:14:52,910 or more importantly, finding that failure much sooner, 235 00:14:53,150 --> 00:14:57,620 because you can, you can rebound if you like from a smaller failure, 236 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,270 like a series of small failures, rather than a massive failure, you know, 237 00:15:02,271 --> 00:15:05,900 where you put your house at risk or you've put your business completely at risk. 238 00:15:07,430 --> 00:15:08,360 So I have to ask, 239 00:15:08,361 --> 00:15:13,070 was Paul able to rebound from his failure in his blind spots, 240 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:14,840 in the factory floor? 241 00:15:16,430 --> 00:15:20,630 Yes and no, I mean, I guess in some cases it's tough when your business fails. 242 00:15:20,631 --> 00:15:23,270 I mean, we can't take away from it. It, it, you know, 243 00:15:23,300 --> 00:15:28,280 it does deflate your sense of self-worth or your sense of what 244 00:15:28,281 --> 00:15:29,360 you can do next. 245 00:15:29,810 --> 00:15:34,520 What I'd say has been a real strength for him in a real rebounding is that 246 00:15:34,820 --> 00:15:39,110 he purposely used those experiences to share his 247 00:15:39,111 --> 00:15:43,700 story and then write this book. And in this book, we do a sort of, 248 00:15:43,701 --> 00:15:45,380 he says, she says, in a way, 249 00:15:45,381 --> 00:15:50,330 so Paul narrates the story from A-Z or soup to nuts to some 250 00:15:50,331 --> 00:15:52,340 of your compatriots might say. 251 00:15:52,730 --> 00:15:57,170 So he gives that story of starting up this business from having 252 00:15:57,171 --> 00:16:01,580 previously a financial services background to moving into the retail pie, 253 00:16:01,581 --> 00:16:04,100 making business. And then he, 254 00:16:05,661 --> 00:16:09,920 through sharing those experiences starts to eliminate or 255 00:16:09,921 --> 00:16:12,110 reveal some of those blind spots. 256 00:16:12,410 --> 00:16:16,940 And then I use my lens of both that equity analysts background, 257 00:16:16,941 --> 00:16:21,770 and also the coach and mentor to dig a little 258 00:16:21,771 --> 00:16:26,000 bit deeper. One of the examples we use is that, you know, 259 00:16:26,060 --> 00:16:29,720 clearly Paul could do spreadsheets. In fact, he had amazing spreadsheets. 260 00:16:29,721 --> 00:16:33,920 He did the three scenarios of positive, negative, and neutral. 261 00:16:34,460 --> 00:16:38,990 What he wasn't aware of was that he has a tendency to be incredibly 262 00:16:38,991 --> 00:16:42,890 positive. He's always looking on the bright side and, you know, 263 00:16:42,891 --> 00:16:47,150 as a previous salesman, he has what some people might call happy years. 264 00:16:47,510 --> 00:16:51,980 So even when he did his spreadsheets, the negative scenario, frankly, 265 00:16:51,981 --> 00:16:53,660 was still very positive. You know? 266 00:16:53,661 --> 00:16:57,290 So the sales that he had projected even in negative or neutral 267 00:16:57,860 --> 00:17:02,690 environments were still overly optimistic. And so again, 268 00:17:02,691 --> 00:17:07,010 that opportunity to dig deep and start to notice, 269 00:17:07,430 --> 00:17:12,380 okay, so frankly, I'm always positive. So who could I go to? 270 00:17:12,381 --> 00:17:13,430 Who could I ask? 271 00:17:13,431 --> 00:17:18,380 Where could I get some impartial advice or a different set of eyes to look over 272 00:17:18,381 --> 00:17:20,690 my plans, to look over my assumptions, 273 00:17:20,930 --> 00:17:25,520 to sort of poke holes in the argument and not take it as I say, as an offense, 274 00:17:25,521 --> 00:17:30,270 or become defensive or become even more convicted 275 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,160 in terms of your stubbornness around your idea, 276 00:17:34,161 --> 00:17:36,830 but taking it on the chin and sort of thinking, okay, all right, well, 277 00:17:37,130 --> 00:17:41,090 what could I do differently? And where might that chink in the armor be? 278 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,590 So as we wrap up our conversation, I wanted to come back to that word failure. 279 00:17:45,591 --> 00:17:47,270 It's clear that you embrace that word. 280 00:17:47,930 --> 00:17:52,140 So can we just talk about why should we not be scared to fail? 281 00:17:52,740 --> 00:17:55,560 And, you know, what are some things we can learn from it? And, you know, 282 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,230 cause there's gotta be some positives in the actual failure. 283 00:17:58,980 --> 00:18:00,360 Yeah, absolutely. And, 284 00:18:00,410 --> 00:18:05,160 and so I personally call myself a recovering perfectionist. 285 00:18:05,430 --> 00:18:08,520 So I'm someone that historically would have, you know, 286 00:18:08,521 --> 00:18:11,550 revised a piece of work 12 times, you know, 287 00:18:11,551 --> 00:18:14,730 wouldn't have wanted to put out something that had typos in it, 288 00:18:14,731 --> 00:18:19,080 or wouldn't want to lead a group until I had the argument 289 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,850 inside out upside down, and I was the expert, 290 00:18:23,851 --> 00:18:24,630 et cetera. 291 00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:28,890 But what I've found is that if you look again at some of the greatest 292 00:18:28,891 --> 00:18:32,610 successes, be it in science or in business, 293 00:18:32,850 --> 00:18:37,800 they often did start from what were failures or from an idea that 294 00:18:37,801 --> 00:18:40,830 didn't reach its completion in its first iteration. 295 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:46,260 So the thing about failure is if you start to see failure 296 00:18:46,290 --> 00:18:50,310 as just part of the process, it's, you know, part of the, 297 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,600 the tweaking and the finessing, 298 00:18:54,601 --> 00:18:58,950 if you like of the idea, it's just, it comes with the territory there. 299 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,990 If you look at Netflix, Netflix, these days is so phenomenally successful, 300 00:19:03,991 --> 00:19:05,670 you know, the pandemic obviously has helped. 301 00:19:05,970 --> 00:19:10,740 And people being glued to box sets has definitely been a positive for them, 302 00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:15,810 but Netflix in its current iteration is not how it started out 303 00:19:15,811 --> 00:19:20,370 and its founders and CEO's and management. We're able, again, 304 00:19:20,371 --> 00:19:21,360 to tweak, 305 00:19:21,361 --> 00:19:26,340 we're able to take advice or at least test the market and 306 00:19:26,430 --> 00:19:29,490 make adjustments, modifications, et cetera. 307 00:19:29,491 --> 00:19:34,230 So if we can look at failure as part of the 308 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:39,270 process and the more we fail in a managed sense, right? 309 00:19:39,271 --> 00:19:43,950 So again, not put the whole house at risk, 310 00:19:44,580 --> 00:19:46,560 but you know, grow our capacity, 311 00:19:46,561 --> 00:19:50,100 grow our comfort zone and take it on the chin. 312 00:19:50,101 --> 00:19:54,840 Then we're more likely to have longer, 313 00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:59,130 longer success down the track. And we go to build in, 314 00:19:59,131 --> 00:20:01,650 in ourselves and in our businesses, 315 00:20:01,650 --> 00:20:06,390 a resilience that you don't have if you always been successful. 316 00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:09,510 You know, if you see that with university students, for instance, 317 00:20:09,780 --> 00:20:14,700 Paul and I mentor a number of students at entrepreneurial schools or in 318 00:20:14,701 --> 00:20:15,720 entrepreneurship, 319 00:20:16,050 --> 00:20:20,940 and they may be a star students and they're so frightened of not getting 320 00:20:20,941 --> 00:20:24,570 it right. That again, they don't get out of their comfort zone. 321 00:20:24,780 --> 00:20:26,160 They don't have resilience. 322 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:31,170 So learning to take small steps coming back from the failure 323 00:20:31,171 --> 00:20:33,900 learning well, okay, so I didn't get it right. 324 00:20:33,930 --> 00:20:35,670 What could I have done differently? What have, 325 00:20:35,970 --> 00:20:38,760 what do I now see was the thing I missed out on? 326 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,080 Or what do I now have experience on, or who could I go to, 327 00:20:43,081 --> 00:20:47,830 who can give me a different set of eyes that builds resilience that builds a 328 00:20:47,831 --> 00:20:49,540 new way of adapting. 329 00:20:50,380 --> 00:20:52,360 It sounds like it does. And you know, 330 00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:55,180 you mentioned Netflix was able to adapt itself. 331 00:20:55,181 --> 00:20:57,640 And then you think of the opposite of Netflix, which is blockbuster, 332 00:20:57,641 --> 00:21:02,200 which didn't adapt itself and ended up not being able to continue or redevelop 333 00:21:02,201 --> 00:21:03,034 into a new company. 334 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,820 Yeah, absolutely. And see to me, and it's, again, 335 00:21:06,821 --> 00:21:10,390 something we speak about in the book is that, you know, 336 00:21:10,420 --> 00:21:14,980 being a successful entrepreneur or business person is about managing 337 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,780 opposites in some ways, right? Because you have to have conviction, 338 00:21:19,781 --> 00:21:22,900 you have to have a sense of competence in the idea. 339 00:21:22,901 --> 00:21:25,090 So in a way you're stubborn, 340 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:30,040 but you can't be so stubborn that you're blind and that you don't take on new 341 00:21:30,041 --> 00:21:34,990 information or you don't take on legitimate concerns or things that people 342 00:21:34,991 --> 00:21:38,710 point out to you. So it's that balancing if you like of, yes, 343 00:21:38,711 --> 00:21:42,940 I have conviction, so I'm not going to be swayed from my idea just from, 344 00:21:43,330 --> 00:21:43,541 you know, 345 00:21:43,541 --> 00:21:47,130 someone who doesn't believe I can do it because they don't know me very well 346 00:21:47,170 --> 00:21:49,030 because they're fearful, you know, 347 00:21:49,031 --> 00:21:53,950 they wouldn't put themselves in those shoes versus well, 348 00:21:53,951 --> 00:21:58,840 actually what they're pointing out to me has some real legitimacy 349 00:21:58,870 --> 00:22:00,700 because they have a different experience. 350 00:22:00,940 --> 00:22:03,520 They've seen some risks that I'm not aware of. 351 00:22:03,850 --> 00:22:08,780 They have had a similar business or whatever. So again, you, 352 00:22:08,820 --> 00:22:12,190 you know, you want to reach for the stars, but keep your feet on the ground. 353 00:22:12,460 --> 00:22:16,840 You want to have conviction, but not be stubborn. You want to pivot, 354 00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:21,700 but you also wanted to develop more in one line as well. 355 00:22:21,701 --> 00:22:24,580 So again, it's balancing those opposites. 356 00:22:26,740 --> 00:22:29,500 This has been count me in IMA's podcast, 357 00:22:29,530 --> 00:22:32,740 providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from the 358 00:22:32,741 --> 00:22:34,840 accounting and finance profession. If you like, 359 00:22:34,841 --> 00:22:38,200 what you heard and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting and 360 00:22:38,201 --> 00:22:39,280 finance education, 361 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:44,290 visit IMA website at www dot I M a net that'll work.